Theos-Talk Archives (November 2000 Message tt00154)

I'm assuming this is from Daniel Caldwell... 

Daniel I admire your work and I don't doubt your physical 
existence, but you seem to want to believe in the physical 
manifestations of the "mahatmas" as recorded by early 
theosophists. You are welcome to your belief and may keep it. 

I for one will be differing with you on this. Pardon me if I sound a 
bit direct, but to me it is much like the testimonies Joseph Smith 
produced to butress his claims of the Golden tablets that were 
translated into the Book of Mormon. We can read at length from 
his witnesses but ultimately where does it get us? No further 
along than when we started. I must take the role of the doubting 
Thomas here and say that there is very little substance to these 
shadowy fellows. They really represent far less than what has 
survived from the great Mahasiddha Gorakhnath. 

But all these thing aside I wish you well in your path.

- Art





-- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Blavatsky Archives" <info@b...> 
wrote:
> Subject: HPB's Masters as "shadowy beings"
> 
> Thanks Art for your comments below. I see that again as on 
previous
> occasions you insist on characterizing the Mahatmas as 
"shadowy beings."
> But exactly what do you mean by this phrase "shadowy 
beings"? I also find
> it hard to understand why you insist that the Masters of HPB 
were nothing
> but "spirit guides".
> 
> Take for example, this account by William T. Brown:
> 
> "The place to which our narrative really next pertains is the city 
of
> Lahore. Here, as elsewhere, Colonel Olcott delivered stirring 
addresses
> to
> large audiences; but Lahore has a special interest, because 
there we saw,
> in
> his own physical body, Mahatma Koot Hoomi himself."
> 
> "On the afternoon of the 19th November, I saw the Master in 
broad daylight,
> and recognized him. . . . At Jammu I had another opportunity of 
seeing
> Mahatma Koot Hoomi in propria persona. One evening I went 
to the end of
> the
> "compound" (private enclosure), and there I found the Master 
awaiting my
> approach. I saluted in European fashion, and came, hat in 
hand, to within
> a
> few yards of the place on which he was standing. After a 
minute or so he
> marched away, the noise of his footsteps on the gravel being 
markedly
> audible."
> 
> What is your opinion of these events?
> 
> Even Paul Johnson is of the opinion that:
> 
> "There were two points in the history of the TS at which the 
Masters Morya
> and Koot Hoomi appeared as SOLID HISTORICAL 
PERSONAGES rather than elusive
> semi-ethereal beings. At both of these points, the same 
triangular
> configuration is apparent: the Founders of the TS, the Maharaja 
Ranbir
> Singh, and an Amritsar Sikh Sirdar are found working in 
collusion. In
> October and November 1880, the Founders' trip to the Punjab 
to meet these
> figures coincided with the beginning of the Mahatma 
correspondence. In
> November 1883, Olcott's trip to Lahore and Jammu again 
involved Punjabi
> Sikh
> Sirdars and the Maharaja of Kashmir." caps added
> 
> And elsewhere Johnson writes:
> 
> "What I do contend is that a visit [from Master KH]
> occurring during a journey that is well grounded
> in historical evidence, documented by three
> witnesses [Brown, Olcott, Damodar]who
> portray the Master as arriving and departing in A QUITE
> CORPOREAL MANNER, is much more solid evidence relevant 
to
> identifying K.H. than is found elsewhere in Theosophical
> literature. Furthermore, the coincidence of Olcott, Brown and
> Damodar spending their days in Lahore in the company of 
Sirdars
> and Singh Sabha leaders, then receiving nocturnal visits from
> Koot Hoomi and Djual Kul, suggests a link between the Singh
> Sabha and these Masters. The following week, the same kind 
of
> Mahatmic contacts continued while the three travelers were in
> Ranbir Singh's palace, suggesting a similar link with him. 
caps added.
> 
> Art, it seems to me that you consistently ignore all evidence 
that would
> put in
> doubt your own "explanation" that HPB's Masters were not real 
flesh and
> blood men but only non-physical "spirit guides".
> 
> You have every right to believe whatever you want to about 
HPB's Masters.
> But when you write:
> 
> "I do feel strongly that to hold to the existence of these shadowy 
beings
> is
> to bring a kind of disrepute on us and the work of theosophy."
> 
> and also when you point out (as you have done for the last year 
or two)
> that thinking, reasonable students of Theosophy should come 
to a similar
> conclusion
> then I suggest that you provide this forum with some of the 
detailed evidence
> and reasoning that you believe would lead other theosophists 
to what you
> think is the clear and obvious conclusion. I am assuming you 
would want
> to share your insights with other students of Theosophy 
especially if you
> believe that the truth on this matter should be sought with 
diligence and
> thoughtfulness.
> 
> Daniel
> 
> 
> 
> >What I understand is that the Masters as commonly 
understood
> >by Theosophists is a concept that was heavily influenced by 
the
> >spirit guides then used in the spiritualist movement... here I 
refer
> >to the mysterious letters that appear from the Mahatmas...
> >The tradition of the Mahasiddhis in India and Tibet is much 
older
> >than that late grafting of our historical Theosophical 
movement.
> >The "Mahatma" idea is really i believe a synthesis between 
the
> >Rosicrucian concept of the invisible brotherhood and the
> >european ideas of what a Mahatma was then current in the 
early
> >twentieth century... These ideas are of historical interest only 
and
> >should be respected as such. I do feel strongly that to hold to 
the
> >existence of these shadowy beings is to bring a kind of 
disrepute
> >on us and the work of theosophy.
> >Sincerely,
> >Arthur Gregory
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> Daniel H. Caldwell
> info@b...
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