Theos-Talk Archives (September 2000 Message tt00012)

Sept 8th 2000

Dear Jerry

While vocabularies and the meaning of terms will differ, the
point that I understand Theosophy (as an age-old philosophy)
makes is that the ONE SPIRIT pervades all things, whether
manifest or non-manifest.  It cannot be defined in terms of
space, time, motion, energy, etc... which are all the kinds of
variables we are attempting to relate to in terms of our memory,
and some points in space, time and energy which we arbitrarily
fix as either "starting POINTS" or as "Memories."

To simplify (in my way of thinking)  Our embodied mind, (as well
as all the other "principles" that HPB details are 'aspects' of
the ONE SELF, which for some undefinable reason (undefinable to
us I mean) are differentiated and made subject to the laws of
evolution, karma, time, space, motion, vibration, in a word the
differences of temporary isolation -- necessary to a 'mind' that
is (as we are - human minds) involved in differentiation and
illusion.

I do not mean to change the options, or the meaning of what I
have hitherto written.  I do mean so say that the riddle (SD II
176,  T. Glos. P. 171 - KAMADEVA)  "Desire first arose in IT that
was the primal germ of mind....non-Entity." Needs to be grasped
(mentally apprehended) and solved. I think that the meaning HPB
has assigned to the "principles" helps in this arduous task.

Your comments are much appreciated.  But I am not sure that I can
fully elucidate my understanding of them in contrast to your (and
my own) way of thinking (meditation, and correlation with what
Theosophy teaches us).  One fundamental comment I would offer and
that Is:  only stability can perceive that which is variable."
Also:  The Buddha's last words were:  "All compound things are
perishable."  Question:  What in us (other than our
INDIVIDUALITY -- rooted in UNIVERSAL SPIRIT) perceives all the
many changes in our living recorded as our "memories?"

Best wishes,

Dallas
D. T. B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 1:29 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Second Response to Dallas on Meditation

>Dallas offers:
>
>As I understand it:  [ And, the KEY TO THEOSOPHY explains
>this at
>length. ]
>
>1.      MANAS is a universal principle and appertains to the
>INDIVIDUALITY.  It is the basis for permanency in every
>"personal" incarnation as it serves as "vehicle" for
ATMA->BUDDHI.
>It also serves as the link between ATMA-BUDDHI and the
>Consciousness that acts ion and through the "Personality."

According to my Sanskrit dictionary, manas is the human mind.
HPB also taught in an upper manas and a lower manas, both
of which have to do with the human mind. Please give me
an example of a "principle" that is _not_ "universal."
HPB sometimes uses manas as the mind and other times as
the principle of the human mind rather like Jung's collective
unconscious. When addressing an individual human being, manas
contains our thinking processes and allows us to be
conscious of our thoughts. This is how I use it, so that to
stop thinking is equivalent to transcending manas.



>2.      When Manas is enveloped in the selfish desires and
>ambitions of KAMA, then it assumes the character and being of
>LOWER-MANAS  (or Kama-Manas -- and is limited to the personality
>of that particular incarnation.  The "skandhas" involved may be
>carried over by personal Karma to succeeding incarnations.)


I agree, although I do not think the word "selfish" is
necessary here. Kama includes all personal desire per se, and
would thus include the desire to help others as well as
the desire for enlightenment, etc. One of the tasks of
meditation is to purify one's kama. Skandhas, as I understand
them, are the seeds or traces of a life, which serve as
causes for a new life. Because of this they are associated
with the causal body on the fourth plane, which is where
the Reincarnating Ego resides. Meditation on this fourth
plane Ego is supposed to reveal our past lives, but I have
not had much success with this to date.



>3.      For us at our present level of human evolution the
>"waking state" is the one in which we learn to control our
>"Personal Mind (Kama-Manas) by a recognition of the illusions
>that Kama impose on that aspect of embodied Manas which is our
>basis for present identity and Consciousness.

Actually, I suspect that more could be learned in the dream
and sleep states, and certainly in turiya, than in the waking
state. Manas is mind and thus thoughts, while kama is desire
and thus emotions. Kama-manas is our normal human mind with
thoughts and emotions. Buddhi-manas is our normal human
mind with intuition and thoughts. Most of us are a mixture
of buddhi-manas-kama being conscious of thoughts and
emotions with an occasional flash of intuition. Atma, the
spirit, is kind of like a ground or foundation upon which
the other three function (and is generally hidden by manas
itself).



>  The "Lower-Self"
>becomes aware of and can learn to "see" the Higher-Self.

Keep in mind here that our so-called lower self is our
everyday human mind. The so-called higher self is this
same everyday mind after purification and elimination
of ignorance and illusion. Using the Buddhist analogy
of a mirror, the lower self is a mirror covered with
dust, while the higher self is the exact same mirror
polished and clear. One of the first goals of true
meditation is to wipe the dust off the mirror.


> This
>has to be done by control (will) imposed voluntarily and with
>increasing accuracy in the "waking state."  If we are asleep or
>unconscious on this plane, how could we direct any changes with
>accuracy on another we have no contact or control over ?

One of the goals of meditation is learn how to control
our dreams, and how to remain conscious in deep sleep.
Of course the beginner has to start off in the waking state,
but sooner or later one must advance into dreams and
sleep. I like your use of "will" here, because the whole
idea of making changes according to will is the basis of
magic, and meditation is a magical technique.



>4.      It is perfectly true that any deeper study of the
>processes of mediation and the power to move from state to state
>is not fully covered in my brief article.  This is because a
>thorough study would require a book.  In fact, if we study the
>hints given in Theosophical literature on the subject of
>meditation, these are to be found, and can be assembled by the
>student.

OK. I figured this was the case, Dallas. I am not aware of
anything I have said that is _against_ Theosophical literature
(nor have you) but is, rather, briefly outlined in those
hints you are talking about.



>5.      The Key to grasping at this lies, I would say, in an
>apprehension of the ONE SELF (ATMAN) resident at all times in
the
>various vehicles that it uses.

I do not like your term "grasping" inasmuchas this is exactly
what the human mind, aka manas, does. We do not want to grasp,
but rather we want to let go. Atma is apprehended only in
samadhi, and yes, we certainly can do this. My central point
here, having much to do with meditation, is that atma cannot
be apprehended via manas or by any amount of rational thought.
As HPB says, the mortal cannot understand the immortal.
Although she probably does not come right out and say it,
the implication of her teaching is that the mortal must be
transcended, and this is exactly what meditation should be
used to do. Concentration or one-pointedness is a beginner's
technique to stabilize the mind and control thinking. Only
after we gain some degree of control over thinking can we
transcend it altogether.

Jerry S.





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