Theos-Talk Archives (June 2000 Message tt00026)

How can anyone believe anything based on other peoples documentation of what 
they have witnessed?  In fact, how can anyone take as gospel anything written 
in a newspaper?  Many reporters have been knows to twist the truth or lie to 
get a good story.  Some of them could even be caught up in the mass delusion 
-- which is a psychological possibility ... Especially amongst backward, 
ignorant and superstitious crowds of people that probably made up the crowd 
of 6,000 in Nairobi. Ask any Christian missionary how easy it is to convert 
such people.  How can we be sure that those 6,000 so called witnesses 
actually experienced what a "reporter" states they did?  How can we be sure 
that the so called, respectable (because, well known, or an accepted 
politician), is telling the truth?  Or, that he was not experiencing a self 
generated delusion?  How can we be sure that the 6,000 people weren't mass 
hypnotized, as many crowds have been who gave reports of seeing a fakir 
disappear at the top of his rope -- as has happened innumerable times in 
India?  HPB warned us about taking as truth any statement based on someone's 
authority.  The wordy arguments given forth in the many past commentaries on 
the credibility of Creme and the authenticity of his self proclaimed "Christ" 
are as valid as those proclaimed by the many former nut case "Jesus Christs" 
in rubber rooms (and now wandering the streets) who have made the same claims 
-- but without the "respected" backing and notoriety given to the present 
wearer of the mantle of Christ.  Even the Pope has a better claim for that 
position.  Jim Jones claimed the same things and look where that got him and 
his followers. And, why did so many believe that Krishnamurti was the "coming 
Avatar" -- until he, himself, denounced the phony story built up around him 
by the "respected" leaders of the Theosophical Society?  Without seeing a so 
called miracle for oneself (and even then we can't be sure we are not wishful 
thinking, hallucinating, hypnotized, or just plain fooled) is proof of 
nothing at all.  So, why waste all this talk on such foolishness?  Besides, 
what's it all got to do with theosophy and its discussion on this forum?  
Does arguing about the claims of so called, "Messiahs" make us any wiser? 

LHM

In a message dated 06/03/00 2:14:56 AM, tlorentz@telusplanet.net writes:

>But these aren't really proofs......are they?  If I might say, they appear
>to be conjecture, heresay, speculation and, at most, an educated guess
>based upon, perhaps, intuition.  It can be as easily dimissed as what *I*
>have offered as my "opinion" about the externalization of Maitreya and
>the Hierarchy at this time according to Benjamin Creme.
>   I am well aware, and have stated so before, that I am doubtful about
>providing any form of "proof" that would convince anyone of Maitreya's
>presence in the world today.  In that, I intentionally put forth my opinion
>so that the reader would be aware of my personal bias and obviously,
>dismiss it.  I would even go so far as to say that one could, and possibly
>should, dismiss what Benjamin Creme says regarding Maitreya and the
>externalization of the Hierarchy.  While interesting, no one is 100% sure
>that it is not simply the philosophical opinion of some few individuals.
>   But that is not the information that I provided for the readers who
>requested more information, to follow up on.  I provided specific events,
>news reports, publications, records, and named specific individuals (some
>very well repected individuals - i.e., Wayne Peterson, retired US Diplomat)
>who have stated directly and many times publically that they are having
>direct, in the flesh, experiences of Maitreya.  Additionally, they are
>having these experiences, sometimes, in groups.  This includes a large
>press conference, over a decade ago now, with many world leaders and
>representatives as attendees, including reporters, where Maitreya
>*demonstrated* openly to the shocked gathering His identity as the Christ.
>Many others from around the world, from ordinary walks of life, have
>continued to meet with Maitreya.  Several that were spoken with were not
>even aware of the "Creme Story" when they spoke openly about their often
>miraculous experiences.  Only later do they recognize the picture, when
>shown, of the individual who was photographed in Nairobi (Maitreya) as
>the
>One they experienced. 
>    There are so many important and difficult to discount events that tie
>together to make this a powerfully coherent story that has stretched over
>2 decades now.   It is obvious to me that the events that are unfolding are
>well out of the hands of Benjamin Creme and are affecting people from all
>walks of life and all nations.  
>    I have not met Maitreya myself in person.  But I have read too many
>documented stories, made by such diverse reporters from all over the world,
>and from such unrelated individuals, that it is simply astonishing.  In
>general terms, there are superficial inconsistencies in what Creme claims
>as the timing for the reappearance.  He has always been extremely adamant
>that it has always been "*his own* immediate belief that the reappearance
>would happen at such and such a time".  Be that as it may......then remove
>Creme from the picture for the moment.  That then brings us back to where
>we should be....the facts.
>   Let's start in Nairobi, Kenya, for example.  What of the eyewitness
>accounts by 6000 people who saw him mysteriously appear and disappear,
>speak to the crowd in perfect swahili, the spontaneous healings that took
>place, the instant recognition by the crowd that it was the Christ (even
>though he is in a Pakistani Mayavarupi)?  The photos, the newspaper story
>in the Kenya Times, other eyewitness accounts as reported on the Share
>website.....what do we do with that?  Then, there are the accounts of other
>events - eyewitness accounts - of flesh and blood meetings with Maitreya.
>Accounts by Wayne Peterson, Buddy Piper, etc.  There are radio interviews
>given by these gentleman on a regular basis (see details at:
>http://www.TransmissionMeditation.org/interviews.html
>
>>One's sincerity does not guarantee the truthfulness of one's beliefs
>  
>    So let's not divert our attention from the facts by attempting to
>dismiss the  possibility of this story by throwing question on the validity
>of the story-teller's *opinion* or *beliefs* (or apparant sincerity,
>thereof).  Simply look at the facts.  If you can legitimately dis-prove
>them, then I'm sure there are 6000 people in Nairobi, Kenya who would be
>interested.
>
>Todd  

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