Theos-Talk Archives (April 2000 Message tt00157)

Subject: Theos-World Re: Aryel Sanat on "Leadbeater's problem"


> In a message dated 4/12/00 7:07:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> dennw3k@earthlink.net writes:
>
> << According to Leadbeater he was only vaguely clairvoyant, till one day,
the Master Morya visited him, laid his hand over CWL's forehead for a time,
and then CWL had a real Talent for the rest of his life.

> Dear Dennis,
> Where in the world did you get this information about how CWL became
> clairvoyant?  Please give a specific quote.  In THE INNER LIFE OF
> KRISHNAMURTI I give specific references as to how CWL became clairvoyant.
As
> you can see there, it did not come easy, took a great deal of work, & was
a
> painful process.  He speaks of the Master Djwal Khul (spelling varies) as
> being primarily in charge of the technical proceedings, though the Master
KH > was his teacher, & overseeing the whole thing (which strikes me as a
> procedure associated with CWL's perennial initiation).
> You do a very serious disservice to research into these issues (not to
> mention the truth) when you INVENT things for which there are no
references.

[DK]++++++++++++++++++++++
Well now, - INVENTING THINGS!-? This means that I have to put aside the many
other things that I have to do and look for that passage that I have read
somewhere in the last 6 months!

We are NOT, [as the old saying goes], amused!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> So I would appreciate it very much if you provide a specific reference for
> what you said.  Otherwise, we must all take it for granted that -- for
> reasons of your own, & having absolutely nothing to do with CWL -- you are
spreding untruths.  Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

[DK]++++++++++++++++++++
All right, That is really no problem. That, at least is easy to do.

To find the passage, I go over the indexes first of DAMODAR, and find
interesting things, but not that one. Then, getting out the Leadbeater books
that might have something to do with CWL, and his developing his talents, I
go through MAN, VISIBLE & INVISIBLE, and  THE CHAKRAS (10 color plates), THE
HIDDEN SIDE OF THINGS, and then the biography, THE ELDER BROTHER - by
Gregory Tillett, and then there is CWL's THE MASTERS AND THE PATH. On page
29 there is an interesting article about TULKU, "Borrowed Vehicles," which
addresses something I am interested in, but I did not find the passage that
I vaguely remember, that prompted your interest in documentation.
+++++++++++++++++

> CWL not only wrote many books on the aura & that emphasize his vision:  He
CREATED that genre of literature, as we understand it now (& again, as I
> discuss more carefully in THE INNER LIFE OF KRISHNAMURTI.  If he was not
> clairvoyant, then no one who has been using the very unique language &
> conceptual underpinnings that CWL CREATED is clairvoyant, either.  Since
> EVERYONE who has written about these subjects since his time has been
using  his language & ways of describing, then what you are saying means
that THERE
> HAVE BEEN ABSOLUTELY NO CLAIRVOYANTS since CWL's time.

[DK]++++++++++++++++
Well, that is really jumping to far conclusion. -but, yes, I see that you
are putting that STRAW MAN onto MY shoulders, and then asking me to defend
your own far-out conclusion. I do not agree with your STRAW MAN, and I have
never stated that conclusion.

You are saying then, that CWL coined the term CLAIRVOYANT,
 it didn't exist before CWL, and so, HE defines the concept?
++++++++++++++++++++++

> However, just to give one example, there was Dora Kunz.  She was born in
Java
> in 1908, of a theosophical family in which the first girl on the mother's
> side had always been clairvoyant, several generations back.

[DK]+++++++++++++++++
I assume, then, that this sort of lets CWL and me off the hook as to have
created this concept, since the grandparents several generations back knew
enough of the concept to designate it as what they had.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Her parents sent
> her to be tutored by CWL when she was a girl, & CWL helped her to
understand
> better that which she was seeing clairvoyantly.  From the 1930s until
shortly
> before she died (a couple of years ago), Dora used her clairvoyance
primarily
> in the fields of healing & medical diagnosis.  I was a witness to some of
> this work, when I lived in New York, from 1963 through 1968.  Several
books have been written about her remarkable abilities.  One of those is
> BREAKTHROUGH TO CREATIVITY, by Shafika Karagulla, a neurosurgeon (in this
> book, the author refers to Dora as "Diane," since Dora had no interest in
> being widely considered "a clairvoyant" in the entertainment business
sense,
> preferred to keep her privacy).  Doctors would call her in whenever there
was a really tough diagnosis, often in cases considered either terminal, or
> nearly so.  (Think for a moment:  Would a doctor do this, if Dora had not
> been for real?)  She would look into a person's body & aura, & would point
> things out that would make it possible for the specialists to determine
more
> precisely exactly what was wrong with the person.

> Please explain this to me:  How could CWL have helped Dora, who was
> unquestionably a clairvoyant, if he wasn't one himself?
> I refer to this evidence, and to several other specific items of evidence,
> any one of which would convince any court of law that CWL was indeed a
> clairvoyant.  Please address each of these items of evidence given in my
> book, & show how & why you think there is anything wrong with all of them.

> Some people think it's great to join in the banter, putting down someone
> who's been long dead, making fun of that person, & so on.  But perhaps
such
> activity tells us all more about the teller than about who he is telling
on.
> You would not be doing that, would you, Dennis?
> In very good cheer,

[DK]++++++++++++++
I am happy that you are of good cheer. I have not found fault with your
book,
nor said that I found something wrong with items of evidence that you cite,
and am surprised with this unwarranted attack on me. You are right, One who
puts down someone out of the blue, and accuses him of  "INVENTING THINGS",
putting up Straw Men, and demanding that the accused then defend these
things, That does say something about the accuser!
++++++++++++++++++++

[DK]++++++++++++++++
Well, after a lot of eye strain, and a few hours, I did find the passage,
and I had read it only a month or so ago.  The reference, as YOU well know
is CWL's own HOW THEOSOPHY CAME TO ME, page 131-2. I find that I was
somewhat mistaken as to the Master who did the deed. It was not Morya as I
recalled. On the other hand, it was not Djual Kuhl, as you recalled, either.

The passage cites the Master KH, who suggested a certain kind of meditation,
supervised the work, and:

"In his autobiographical fragment, HOW THEOSOPHY CAME TO ME,  CWL described
how he became clairvoyant in the summer of 1885 under the tutorship of the
Master KH:"   ==Quote #1.

   "I worked at it for forty-two days, and seemed to myself to be on the
brink of the final victory, when the Master Himself intervened and performed
the final act of breaking through which completed the process, and enabled
me thereafter to use astral sight while still retaining full consciousness
in the physical body ..... I was given to understand that my own effort
would have enabled me to break through in twenty-four hours longer, but that
the Master interfered because He wished to employ me at once in a certain
piece of work."
--And that would be Quote #2

So, it was not the Master Morya, as I had thought, not Djual Kuhl, as you
cite to credit for generating the clairvoyance of CWL, it was the Master
Koot Humi.

And that reference is in CWL's autobiography. Unfortunately, I do not have
THAT book, so I have to rely on a book that quotes CWL's book. That book, of
course is YOUR book, pages 120 and 121. Quote # 1 is your introduction to
Quote #2, which (I assume) are CWL's words.

I hope you will give enough credit to your own work so that that qualifies
as giving you the references that you require?  You didn't say what year
Dora went to be tutored by CWL, but this passage in YOUR book quotes 1885 as
the time when the Master KH pushed CWL over the edge to full clairvoyance.

And, your message above says that DORA was born in Java in 1908, which, if
my math skills are still with me, would give plenty of time for CWL's
clairvoyance, and Mrs. Kunz's entry in his life to come together in an
orderly fashion.

++++++++++++
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some people think it's great to join in the banter, putting down someone
> who's been long dead, making fun of that person, & so on.  But perhaps
such
> activity tells us all more about the teller than about who he is telling
on.
> You would not be doing that, would you, Dennis?
> In very good cheer,
> Aryel
---------------------------------

So, again, we come back to why we have all the straw men, and all the
huffing and puffing, and false conclusions, and accusations of Inventing
Things without proper references, when it comes out that I was quoting your
own book. Perhaps you should actually read it and find out what there is in
it. You say that the Master DK did the deed of helping CWL make the final
push, yet your book did not mention that at all, and gives the impression
that the Master KH did it all.

I said that CWL was prompted to develop clairvoyance by a Master, and that a
Master helped him. This passage in YOUR BOOK confirms that, and agrees with
what I said, although it designates a different Master than either You or I
had recalled as helping him along.

So why are you putting all this on me? Is it just to make others want to buy
your book and see for themselves?

If it IS true that you are getting on others for quoting facts from your own
book because you yourself don't remember what you put in it, perhaps we
should ALL be amused, or perhaps wonder who DID write the book!

Dennis



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