Theos-Talk Archives (July 1999 Message tt00005)

Sept 2 99

 

Dear Doss:

 

This is "old history."  But in going through the "deleted items" I came across this unanswered.

 

So let me say that I agree with your comments about the "Old Religions."

 

 

1.  If we examine them historically we will find that they form a sequence, as one grows out of the earlier one.

 

2.  Many times in the past invasions of fanatics and ignorant armies have destroyed the wonders of a declining civilization.

 

3.  There is a group of Wise Men, who never die, and who sustain and retain the Wisdom of all the events and sciences.  They form a Secret Lodge.  They show essentially that man is an immortal student and each life is like a day at school.  The universe runs according to Law.  Man progresses by developing an acute sense of morality which is Brotherhood -- the brotherhood of fellow immortals.

 

4.  Civilizations rise and fall.  Knowledge is thus obscured.  Its traces can be discovered and studied with the help of other that have partially survived.

 

5.  We are presently engaged in this study and work in Theosophy.

 

 

We are looking back with our present perspectives.  Our study of Oriental literature, religion, etc. is hardly 250 years old.  [ Studies based on invasion of Egypt by Napoleon with a corps of scholars in his army train.  Discovery of ancient tile libraries in Mesopotamia (Iraq) - Nimrud, Ur, Babylon, etc.  Investigation of ancient Hebrew, Jewish, Iranian (Zoroastrian), Chinese, Indian, Tibetan, literature, such as that which was made available by Chinese, Indian and Tibetan scholars.

 

Consequently our students of Orientalia in the West, have developed may theories, some of which which are almost unshakable, and that is, that the "sacred writings" of the past represent the "babblings of infant humanity" as Max Muller once put it.  2.  that "civilization" has risen in a straight  line from savagery and ignorance to our present, which is deemed to be the most progressive and advanced civilization so far. [ This overlooks the marvelous architectural and hydraulic evidence form a remote past  which is to be found scattered over the world from Peru to Ohio, from China to the Middle East.  From the Cyclopean structures in the Mediterranean area to the the Astronomical zodiacs and stone observatories found in England, Ireland, Scotland and Norway.  It also overlooks the fact that along with our technical urban advances there are still "savages" and "primitives who live over most of the Earth concurrently with us.  The evidence we have of the past, let us say in archaeology, is scant and fragmentary.  ]

This view we glimpse in part of the past, is obscured by the fact that successive waves of conquest sweeping over ancient sites have seen the progressive destruction of evidence that there was wisdom and facts recorded in the libraries and sanctuaries and sacred writings of those past systems.  Any secret codes embedded in those scriptures copied for the modern investigators from the more ancient ones, or from oral traditions, have also been obscured or obliterated.  However a few initiates are said to survive and still retain a knowledge of these, in Judaism, India, Tibet Mexico, Peru, and other places.  Theosophy brings together this evidence in ISIS UNVEILED, the SECRET DOCTRINE and in many of HPB's Articles.  To take advantage of this information and apply it, the scholar in Oriental Antiquities would have to devote some years of intensive study to HPB's writings.

What remains, that the average visitor or superficially curious person can see?  Usually engraved stone, and aerial views of ancient earthworks, which can be seen only from high over our Earth.  And, even these have been defaced by fanatics, iconoclasts, and the waves of climate that sweep over vast areas from time to time..

So the fragments that HPB uses to rebuild that past, taking into account the fact that our present scholars are provided with only a very small fragment of the remaining evidence that the whole "past" could have given them, has, of necessity, seemed to adopt the posture of "conjecture and speculation" for those modern scholars who do not have access to the indestructible and consecutive records impacted imperishably in the AKAS.  To that extent they appear extraordinary.  No one is able to question the wide coverage and extensive depth of knowledge that HPB shows.  She, however disclaims any personal scholarship and excellence in study and research. She attributes this uniformly to the Adepts and the Masters of Wisdom who have the power to review all events and literature of the past.  They are the ones who have provided and commented on the evidence available.

Why does she do this?  Because she is honest.  She repeatedly states that she is only the reporter, the scribe, for those of the Mahatmas who are providing the information and the consecutive views that should assist modern research in their reconstruction of that past.

So from that point of view Theosophy is HISTORY.  To the extent that it brings together the evidence of a common record of experience.  This is seen even in the few fragments available, to be evidence of the similarities embedded in every system of ancient thought, religion, science and philosophy.  Superficially, to some scholars, it may appear to be a "construct," a kind of "collage" which they might like to find confirmed.  But, they cannot, because none of them has the self-made mental training, or the ability to encompass the whole of the many systems that HPB deals with. 

They therefore try to find fault with her, here and there in their own specialties, as to the meaning and placement of words and ideas.  But if they are confronted with the meanings and values that other systems have, they then retreat, and often say that HPB, or Theosophy, skips to other systems without answering the details that they use in any specific one of them.  These critics have not yet developed the flexibility to see that every one of those systems has a part of the whole "mosaic" of TRUTH, and that each one illuminates the rest in its own way, thus revealing (when we stand at a distance, viewing the whole) the marvelous integration and placement of the "tiles" that form the entire "mosaic" in the historic sequence of various time frames and the emergence of one religion out of its predecessor as, an attempt to reform the former, and get it to return to its original purity. 

It is important to remember that Theosophy claims to be that imperishable wisdom concerning the secret workings of Nature which has given rise in each case to EVERY ONE OF THOSE RELIGIONS.  It antedates them all and they can therefore be resolved back into it.  In fact if one studies carefully the record that HPB has left us, we will find that this is quite true.

If one denies immortality to the Spirit of Man, and if we also deny to the great Adepts - the Mahatmas and the Buddhas, and the Gnyanis and Rishis, their learning and powers to penetrate the limitations of matter which so envelop us and our mental perception now, we cut ourselves off from the potential wisdom that we might attain. 

Actually the scholarship acquired in formal modern academic studies is an asset, if it can be expanded to include other and parallel specialties.  This would require of the student an attitude of constant attention and study, as he seeks to confirm still further the actuality of the IDEAS that those ancient systems provide, and not just the WORDS in which they are framed and which cause so much of the current scholarly limitations.  It is the old matter of differentiating between the EYE and the HEART doctrines.

I hope this is of some use.

Dal

====================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K Ramadoss
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 9:17 PM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: Theos-World theosophy

Dear Dallas: See my comments below. ...doss

At 04:33 AM 6/22/1999 -0700, W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote:
>June 22
>
>Dear Doss:
>
>Thanks for the endorsement. I am constantly amazed at the scholarship that
>shows itself among those who contribute to our exchanges.
>
>Now if some of that valuable time could be additionally placed on the study
>of Theosophy in order to find out if in itself it is cohesive and has
>validity, we might all profit greatly from such a study.

As a non scholar and novice, I found that a quick review of Isis and SD, convinced me that HPB presented a comprehensive "hypothesis" covering man(woman) and the universe. Until such time I find a better "hypothesis", I am quite happy and content to proceed with my life with HPB's "hypothesis" as a backdrop or foundation. It is hoped that personal experiences may confirm or deny parts of it. As every one knows, there are always going to be things that one may not be able to verify personally. HPB's herself has acknowledged it in her writings. So I would stay god speed in our studies.

>Is it possible to demonstrate independently of what HPB says in SD and Isis
>and her Articles that The Theosophy of those early eras generated Hinduism,
>Buddhism, etc... we would have a further demonstration and vindication of
>the actual and present value of Theosophy.

When we deal with the Great Religions, there are several problems. The first one, the language used in the early days when they were founded. The vocabulary may have had a totally different meaning than what we are used to -- even assuming we understand the language. I do not know how many of the religious material is written down in a tangible medium. I assume a vast majority may have never been written down - but orally communicated and handed down from generation to generation. Then you have the allegorical nature as well as other means used to conceal some of the fundamental doctrines or ideas because it would have been fatal for them to be communicated due to then existing political conditions. Then again as oral transmittal took place, there might have been attempts to *improve* or edit them which would have further corrupted unconscionably. So what we know now may by Nth hand material whose real original meaning would have been lost. In trying to reconcile them with what HPB has written, can be a formidable task -- unless there comes an Adept who has first hand knowledge and can confirm or deny that HPB has written. Even then, the Adept's word may not be accepted because he/she does not have a PhD from a top university or even Adept's life may be at risk. These days they may not stone or crucify but simply get shot -- guns are easy to get and quick to kill.

So, with all the above, I do not want to discourage anyone from trying. Let us try and see where we go and what we find.

mkr

>
>
>Dal
>
>Dallas
>dalval@nwc.net 
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
>[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K Ramadoss
>Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 10:09 AM
>To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
>Subject: RE: Theos-World Response to Dallas == DID HPB GO TO TIBET?
>
>
>At 07:26 AM 6/21/1999 -0700, Dallas wrote:
>>June 21 1999
>>However, the stability of THEOSOPHY as a philosophy ought to stand as its
>>own vindication.
>>
>>I note that everyone of the so-called "critics" (from the days of HPB to
>the
>>present) is nibbling around the edges, but no one has so far demonstrated
>>that the CORE IDEAS and TEACHINGS are faulty as a whole.
>
>Dallas, you have hit the nail on its head. Before HPB presented the Core
>Ideas and Teachings to the world at large, except for a handful of people,
>world knew nothing about them and very difficult to find them either even
>if one wanted to find them. Introducing them 120 years back was a far more
>formidable task than it is today with the changed world culture and with
>the modern technological amenities. Some thing to think and meditate about.
>
>I agree that all of us who are beneficiaries of being exposed to the Core
>Ideas and Teachings should make it easier for the novices to focus on them.
>After all, in the final analysis we are dealing with our lives and if each
>one of us can benefit from the Core Ideas and Teachings, they are far more
>important than anything else. I may sound selfish; but if I cannot benefit
>from them, how do I hope they are going to help others.
>
>Keep up the good work.
>
>....doss
>
>
>
>-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
>
>Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
>teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of
>"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
>
>
>-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
>
>Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
>teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of
>"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
>
>
-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.