Theos-Talk Archives (May 1999ar Message tt00183)

May 27th 1999

Dear Leon:

Excuse the slight delay in commenting.  Hard Drive crashed
and I have had to do some extensive work in reconstruction.

Will put in some comments below.

Thanks for yours.

Dal

====================================


 Dallas TenBroeck
  dalval@nwc.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <LeonMaurer@aol.com>
To: <theos-talk@theosophy.com>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Question on CONSCIOUSNESS


>
> In a message dated 5/23/99 10:59:34 AM, Dallas writes:
>
> << May 22 1999
>
> Dallas offers:
>
> Can we not say that "consciousness" means awareness ?  A
> chemical element is guided by properties innate to it, and
> those are regulated by its electro-magnetic composition --
> so that certain chemicals react and others do not.
>
> In deep sleep we still have consciousness, but there is no
awareness.
> Consciousness is an attribute of a manifest universal
field, while awareness
> is a characteristic of the laya point out of which both
consciousness and
> matter arise.
>
------------------------------------------------------------
----

DALLAS:        Additional thoughts on this:

I thought that consciousness was "awareness."  I do not
follow the distinction that you make.

For "consciousness" to operate the "Cognizer" is immutable
relative to the sensations cognized -- It is on "another
plane" and the sensations are then perceived as changes,
laws, rules of procedure, effects, etc...

In what way is a "laya point" involved?  Transition from
what to where ?

I can understand that Laya is in occultism "that point where
substance becomes homogeneous and is unable to act or
differentiate. [ Glos. p. 187 ]  "a "neutral axis" -- "the
limiting point of any given set of senses,"  [SD I 148 ]  It
would seem to be the meeting point, a neutral point or
"center," where two consecutive planes of matter already
formed" meet -- "an incessant circulation takes place
between these."  [ SD I 148 ]

Apparently the ATMA [ our Higher Self ] is the Witness,
immovable.  Consciousness is one and not many.

As I understand it, "consciousness," "perception,"
"awareness"  are synonyms.  It takes a Mind (on any plane of
matter, or substance, to "sense" phenomena and also serve as
a scribe to record observations.

If the "Consciousness" is ONE and not several, it is the
MONAD (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) which is the eternal Witness and
it records (on the akasa) its experiences.  Buddhi is "root
matter" and serves as that imperishable eternal "record"
Hence when there is "manifestation, Atma-Buddhi to become
conscious in that condition requires Manas.

It is the three-fold MONAD (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) which is the
differentiated "spark" from the "parent" FIRE -- the
ABSOLUTENESS (into which all ultimately is resolved), but
such a "resolution" is NOT an abolishment or annihilation in
any way.  If that were a fact the terms "immortal," and
"imperishable" could not apply.

Would it be correct to say:

    The source of Atma is the ABSOLUTENESS ?
    The source of Buddhi is Maha-Buddhi or Mulaprakriti
(Root matter) ?
    The source of Manas is MAHAT or the Universal Mind ?

    The "cause" of evolution and differentiation is the
effort of the MONAD to undergo and comprehend all
experience, and learn how to resolve complexity back into
simplicity, WHILE RETAINING THE EXPERIENCES that it
undergoes.

    Logically such a process is unending.  "As we advance
the Goal ever recedes."

    "Manifestation," "{non-manifestation," ABSOLUTENESS,
differentiation are all terms that our embodied mind employs
in an attempt to resolve the paradox of its eternal and
unchangeable presence.

Whatever we may think we are (as some set of limits), we ARE
HERE.  We exist.

We are surrounded by other beings of similar constitution to
ours.

This makes BROTHERHOOD a reasonable fact which we need to
use here and now.

It also explains the reason that theosophy emphasizes the
moral nature of motive as the basis for all individual and
collective KARMA.  The Ethical/moral, causative choices that
we make all the time actuate personal Karma.

================================


> If that were all, it would be quite mechanical. However it
> is observed in chemical  engineering that not all
chemicals
> react entirely, or that the results are absolutely pure
and
> free of their original combining constituents.  So an
> equation for a chemical reaction reads with a double
arrow,
> one side pointing forward to the compound and the other
> pointing back from the compound to the elements that were
> supposed to combine 100%, and, are found in practice, not
to
> do that at all.
>
> Is this randomness or indeterminacy possibly an example of
> independent consciousness at the atomic or molecular
stage?>>
>
========================================
> (Leon answers)
> Possibly--by a long stretch of the imagination, perhaps...
But, what does the
> manifest aspects of material nature have to do with
consciousness as a
> universal attribute of spirit?  Randomness and
indeterminacy only apply to
> the illusory physical aspects of matter.  Consciousness,
as the immutable
> attribute of spirit cannot be subject to changes, whether
random or not--that
> are limited solely to the mutable material plane of
existence.
>
====================================

DALLAS:

I do understand that "consciousness" is unchangeable,
immutable.  All else is phenomena and is constantly
changing.  Because of the immutability of CONSCIOUSNESS, we
(as the PERCEIVER) are able to witness and record change.
Then when we relate the changes observed, we attempt to
derive an expression of the "laws" involved.

We take it for granted that Nature is always honest and
true, and provides a trustworthy base for us to use.

Yet, Theosophy states that the nature (and phenomena) of
"matter" change, as the Sun and our EARTH in attendance,
sweep through areas of Space where quite different laws and
conditions prevail.

It also draws our attention to the fact that OUTSIDE of our
system the conditions of matter may be quite different from
the way in which matter behaves here and around us, but,
there is a boundary, a transfer surface (?) where the
phenomena of matter and forces in "outer-Space" are
translated into the phenomena we are familiar with here and
now. [ SD I 142 ]

I used the ideas of randomness and indeterminacy to
illustrate the difficulties that Science has encountered in
explaining phenomena of difference observed in certain areas
of their work.  I do not believe that Nature is either
random or indeterminate.  "There is no "chance" in Nature,
wherein everything is mathematically co-ordinate and
mutually related in its units." [ SD I 653 ]

========================================

> (Dallas)
> There appear to be other levels of "consciousness" --- as
>in  the "sensitivity of plants"  Jagdish Chandra Bose
> demonstrated this as far back as the 1880s and 1900s and
> more recently I have read that there appears to be a
> mysterious and instantaneous communication of sensitivity
> between a "mother plant" and a "daughter plant" made by
> rooting one of the "mother's" branches and then
>transporting  it hundred, even thousands of miles away from
the
"mother."
>
> Experiments have shown that the reaction of the "mother"
>to  a stimulus is transmitted to the "daughter" over great
> distances.  Why ?  How ?

>=======================================

> (Leon)
> Since everything in the universe (empowered by Fohat)
stems from cosmic
> "electricity," there is a connection between each and all
of the seven fold
> aspects of nature.  If each aspect is an electric field
functioning at a
> different phase level or order of vibration, then all
fields are linked by
> harmonics, resonance and inductive processes.  This
accounts for the actions
> on the physical plane being continuously recorded on the
akashic plane.
>
> Since awareness in any field is an attribute of the
zero-point alone (around
> which each field vibrates) and since all zero-points
existing in the "vacuum"
> of space are contiguous with each other, and since the
mother and daughter
> tree have the same astral body--they are linked together
through their common
> zero (laya) point of awareness within that astral field
(which is the active
> root of all sensory perception).  Thus, what is
experienced by the Mother
> plant can also be experienced by the daughter--no matter
how far apart they
> are... Also, since the Astral field vibrates in a higher
frequency phase
> order than the material fields, and its cycle time
constant very short, an
> astral wave form can travel much faster than light (C).
>
===================================

DALLAS
Agreed.  I am still puzzled about the using of a "laya
point" as a focus.  I seems to me that it is a transition
point, and that a "higher consciousness" would pass through
it to observe or act on a plane of "lower" material
existence -- and to my mind comes the concept of the "7 -
Principles."  They abut as well as interpenetrate each
other, and everyone of the primary SEVEN shares aspects of
itself with all the others -- hence the "49 fires" .

=======================================================


> Additionally, all the lower beings exist as a sort of
group "kingdom
> consciousness" rather than as the fully individualized
conscious awareness
> experienced by the Human Kingdom (due to our "awakened"
manasic link).  This
> makes it much more likely that the lower Kingdoms are more
sensitive to the
> higher planes of consciousness than are ordinary
(non-awakened) humans.  Even
> animals, like cats, are much more sensitive to the astral
vibrations than we
> humans with our noisy, interfering minds.:-)
>
========================================

DALLAS
This sounds to me as though we were talking of the "Monadic
essence" --  On p. 632 Vol. 1 SD,  HPB lists 4 conditions of
the Monads:  "gods," "elementals," and "atoms."  The 4th
division seem to be the "countless spiritual Forces--Monadic
less, for they are pure incorporealities, except under
certain
laws when the assume a form--not necessarily human.

SD I 619 we read: "Every atom becomes a viable complex unit
(a molecule), and once attracted into the sphere of
terrestrial activity, the Monadic Essence, passing through
... becomes man.  In their septenary aggregation they are
the "Heavenly Man"..."The Monads (Jivas) are the 'soul of
the Atoms, both are the fabric in which the Chohans
(Dhyanis, gods) cloth themselves when a form is needed."

============================================



> (Dallas)
> And so on, other instances are in the animal and human
> bodies where the cells, molecules, etc... show great
wisdom
> in their process of renovation and maintenance in the host
> bodies.  Every body or being is made up of countless
atoms,
> molecules, cells, and other structures -- all are ruled by
> intelligence -- but in each case there is evidence of a
> central guidance system and one wonders how that is done
and
> why the least of things is so well organized and  adjusted
> to the rest of its environment.  What CONSCIOUSNESS rules
> all this vast Universe and each smaller universe ?  Our
> human bodies are said to consist on the average of 30 to
40
> quadrillion atoms !  We certainly do not rule and adjust
all
> that, so some Intelligence helps to do that for us -- we
are
> tenants in a self-conscious dwelling house, and only
> regulate what we do and how we behave when we are awake,
> aware, attentive, thinking doing and acting -- and we do
not
> do that yet, very well !  When the body sleeps who keeps
the
> home-fires burning ?
>
> All is cooperative in nature,  So why not Consciousness?>>

==================================

DALLAS        Agreed

==================================

>
> (Leon)
> It might be looked at this way.  In the awakened universe,
Spirit or
> consciousness is the first aspect to manifest and
therefore contains all
> wisdom and intelligence (accumulated from the experience
of all previous
> "lives" of the Divine "light").  This intelligence is in
the form of
> vibratory energy patterns contained within the
consciousness "field"...
> (Somewhat like the interference patterns of light that
contain all the
> information necessary to recreate a holographic image.)
>
---------------------------------

DALLAS  I think that is an excellent image.

----------------------------------

> Since consciousness rules over Mahat and, subsequently, on
the lower planes,
> over Manas, and since Manas rules over the lower nature
and is all knowing on
> the physical plane--it, therefore, by replicating the
holistic patterns of
> higher wisdom and knowledge (through its resonance with
the higher fields of
> Atma-Buddhi), can guide all the "lives" in our bodies and
direct both Prana
> and the Astral to, in turn, energize and guide the forms
in their cooperative
> activities, as well as in their generation and
regeneration (or repair when
> damaged).  This transfer of information through the
application of Will,
> empowered by Kama, is what keeps the activities of "life"
rolling along in
> perfect correspondence and compliance with the universal
order.  This,
> incidentally, is the idea behind the old Testament
statement that "God
> creates man in His (Its) own image."
>
================================

DALLAS

Would it not be better to say that "Consciousness" focuses
itself in that aspect of ITSELF (in manifestation) that we
call Mahat (universally) and Manas  (individually)

I do like the concept of its ability to instantly contact
all aspects using a "holistic" faculty and thus actuate the
"lower principles" as needed.

Is not WILL --  Fohat ?    It is the "bridge" that links
Mind-decision with material "action"

============================

> I hope this helps,
>
LET ME THANK YOU, AND SAY IT IS OF GREAT HELP -- SEE IF WHAT
I ADDITIONALLY WRITE CONFIRMS MY UNDERSTANDING AND ATTUNES
IT TO YOUR IDEAS.

Dal   May 27th 1999

------------------------

> Leon
>
>
>
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