Theos-Talk Archives (April 1999 Message tt00194)

4-30-99

Dear Doss:

I think we already have "all knowledge" and all we need to do is
to think very deeply and quietly, and that ancient wisdom which
is impacted in the spiritual center of our Purusha will come to
the fore and illuminate our present embodied minds with its
wisdom.  We may, however, have to clear away a lot of debris
accumulated in this life, which is basically unessential.

I looked for my notes to you of "occultism" and strangely I do
not find them fight now.  Let me look again and if I find them, I
will send.  (at the bottom of this letter - I found them - and I
wonder if you ever got them)

Karma is called "the law of laws, eternal harmony, Alaya's self -
a shoreless universal essence and the inner nature and exactness
of all things -- the law of Love eternal."  That covers
everything.

If Purusha/spirit is everywhere then Karma is everywhere also.
Do review what HPB writes in SD I pp 14-18 -- specially the 2nd
Item there, pp 16-17, 65


Do you subscribe to blavatsky.net they now have a STUDY group
that exchanges notes and comments.  The way is to become a
"member" and then you cans join the group -- it is gratis.  I
have been asked to act as one of the "monitors" and contribute
regularly there for the past 2 months.  these subjects are under
current debate and there are interesting archives as well as
links to all sources for theosophical materials.

Web-site:	http://www.blavatsky.net

Best  wishes,

Dal

See what you think what I write below


========

April 26th

Dear Doss:

I have put in some NOTES at your queries below

Best wishes:

Dal

=========================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Theosophy Study List digest [mailto:theos-l@list.vnet.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 1999 10:00 PM
To: theos-l digest recipients
Subject: theos-l digest: April 25, 1999



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Subject: Student of Occultism vs Adeptship
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:11:51 -0500
X-Message-Number: 2

While reading the ML to APS, there was a comment regarding
Occultism and
Adeptship.

Commenting on C. C. Massey - a most charming, devoted friend; a
profound
mystic; a generous, noble minded man, a gentleman -- as they
say -- every
inch of him; tried as gold; every requisite for a *student* of
occultism,
none for an *adept*...

I was intrigued. Can someone who is well qualified to be a
student of
occultism but alas does not have requisite for an adept.

Any ideas?

mkr

============================


DALLAS	As I have read in ML and from HPB, I think I have read
them saying:  that when anyone enters the path of Brotherhood and
studies Theosophy so as to improve the moral quality of their
life and assist the world and others, they come under the notice
of the Adepts - the Mahatmas.  Ther is described in ML a
sensitive map of the World where the sparkling minds of devotees
shine out and are perceived by the Mahatmas.  [ ML 267-8]  Wisdom
is of the "head."  compassion is of the "heart."  Both have to be
conjoined.

Unconsciously, and eventually consciously they fit themselves for
the study of "occultism" which is the study of Nature's secret
workings -- or, the Laws of karma as they operate everywhere.
Our physial Nature is only the shell or rind.  All the force and
energy of choice and decision is concealed in the mind and the
heart of everyone.

It is not seeking to unravel the secrets of others or to judge
their motives, but rather an intense study of our own motives and
desires, and thoughts -- and to try and offer them to the
Maha-Guru who is Sri Krishna, "seated in our own HEARTS," and
also in the "hearts of all other beings."

Can we do this honestly ?

We can always make a beginning and with determination we can
after every mistake, pick ourselves up and start again. The
mountains of the spirit are high but the longest journey begins
with the first step and is achieved by continually moving towards
the Great Goal.  But, you already know this well.

According to the nature of their personal karma and the effort
they put forth they are "helped."

This "help" is not always visible, nor should the student expect
to receive any special marks of attention.  Everyone proceeds in
their life by the power of their own decisions and exertions.
this steadfastness on the "Path" is one of the great tests of
discipleship and there are many stories in Hindu lore that
illustrate the power of a "vow."  We must remember that we are
IMMORTALS and that Sri Krishna is INTERIOR TO US.  I Think that
the independence from  outside forms and conditions is the
valuable teaching of Krishnaji -- which would place it "in line"
with the Gita teaching.  It is reasonable, and makes of each man
his own priest, and his own servant to the One Truth -- to the
ABSOLUTENESS which is the ALL.  He has to make himself a servant
to the Highest in the Universe, and therefore he, as such a
devoted servant to the Lord of All Being, he performs the best
service of help wherever he may be.

Becoming a "student" of occultism does not mean joining any
special section, society, etc. but it does mean to carefully take
note of all the processes of nature, karma, around him/her.  We
also should take the position that we are in our inner essence
IMMORTAL Spiritual/Souls. And that reincarnation is the process
by which we improve our moral and intellectual quality from life
to life

Much can be done to "settle old debts, and avoid incurring new
ones" in any life.  But it is always done by ones' self.  Take
the idea of Karma:  we always set up "attachments" or
"impediments" when we make choices.  Good choices harmonize with
our "voice of Conscience" which is the Voice and advice of the
ATMAN from within.

But, so as not to confuse this VOICE with the strong voice of
desire (Kama), we have to behave as mind-beings, and use the mind
to see if such suggestions are indeed universal, impartial, fair
and just as far as we are able to determine.  [HPB explains the 3
lines of evolution that come together in Man in SD I 181

It is the MIND -- Manas - that is the "student," always the Mind.

And the mind is closely attached to personal desires.  [ In the
B. Gita, Sri Krishna speaks as the Higher Self, as Narayana, as
the Atman ==  to Arjuna (who is Nara - Man of Mind), and always
presumes that Arjuna is able to control his lower nature of
feelings and emotions. ]  The Gita is full of "Occultism" in the
injunctions given to Arjuna.  For any man or woman to succeed in
occult learning they have to deeply and truly study the words of
Sri Krishna, for they are spoken universally to all disciples of
whatever nature, race, religion.

But each student, makes himself by a strong vow -- a fervent
desire to become a student of the secret working of nature when
they apply themselves to consciously study and learn how Karma
works all around him, and he then studies the working and
inter-play of the inner principles of his own constitution  ( The
KEY TO THEOSOPHY is in my esteem the best tutor in this regard -
get an "original" reprint as others have been "edited." --- I
think you have already done this. )

	Dal


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Subject: Speeding up your Karma
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:19:31 -0500
X-Message-Number: 3

One concept many in TS are fairly familiar with is that the idea
of working
of one's "bad" karma is speeded up once a person tries to become
a chela.
Is this an idea that was discussed during the time of HPB or
something that
was developed after her demise.

=========================

DALLAS	the acceleration of "paying off karma" occurs naturally
when a student (as above) begins to take his own life seriously
into his hands and regulate it by the mind instead of letting the
desires manipulate him.

Old habits and views, and desires come to haunt him with
ferocity, as they find they may suffer starvation, and they try
to cause him to get confused and continue supporting and feeding
them.
they may even have the power of influencing family members who
unwittingly take their side in seeking to deter the student from
his newly chosen path.  (Note:  no special notice or warning need
be given to others of this inner choice, as that would reduce its
effectiveness -- it is a totally "occult--secret" decision that
such students make -- a "vow to the Higher Self."  and this is
done privately. )  This ought to be taken into account as the
student has no right to distance himself from "family duties."
In fact, the best place for the altering of karma and the paying
of those ancient debts is in the family environment -- there, if
one can develop the ability to peacefully and devotedly alter any
resistance of family members who may not fully grasp the change,
then one has developed the ability to live in the world, while
not being "of the world."

In some case the old habits and desires behave like "Bhuts" which
feed off the "rice and the milk or water (shraddha and pinda):"
that is offered to appease them.  When this kind of emotional
"food" is cut off, they can protest by additional stress and
uncertainty, and also serve to precipitate (apparently) the
opposition of others. But this can all be seen in the Gita, as
Sri Krishna covers the whole discipline of becoming a
chela-devotee -- one who is devoted to His service, and that is
the service of the inner Higher Self -- and He declares and shows
to Arjuna that He is everywhere in the Universe == except in
those who make wrong choices -- he is not to be found supporting
errors.  He constantly points to honesty and truth.

HPB taught the same thing as you can again ascertain from the KEY
TO THEOSOPHY.  There is a "Practical Theosophy" section there,
which covers the application of theosophical principles.  Note
that the principles are first discussed in the book so that the
Enquirer gets a broad as well as an exact view of the universal
principles, and then the Enquirer turns to asking about
applications.

Dal.

===============

mkr

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Subject: Chief Aim of the Adepts
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:32:15 -0500
X-Message-Number: 4

In ML to APS, discussing the concept of "God", Master K.H.
states:

Our chief aim is to deliver humanity of this nightmare (God), to
teach man
virtue for its own sake, and walk in life relying on himself
instead of
leaning on a theological crutch, that for countless ages was the
direct
cause of nearly all human misery.
==========

Is not K's message same as above? K restating what the Adept has
clearly
laid out as "Their" chief aim.

With all the information provided in SD about anthropogenesis and
cosmogenesis, it appears that the fundamental problem the Adepts
are trying
attack is to make every man and woman self reliant and choose
virtue for
its own sake, not for  creating good Karma or trying to become
Adepts at a
future date. With all that has been said and written about the
Path, I
think that the above statement is the keystone of the objective
of the
Adepts. They have clearly laid out and not any concealed or
secret or
undeclared objects that some scholars seem to believe.

Any comments.

=============================

DALLAS	I think you have stated this very well.

"First deserve, then desire."  Is the important axiom to be kept
in mind and applied.  We have all the time needed as immortals to
eventually achieve perfection of knowledge and compassion, and
the mixture is called "wisdom." .  It is one of the delusions of
this life (and perhaps also Kali Yuga and its acceleration) that
has made us think that everything has to be done as soon as
possible.  "Hurry up slowly" is an old aphorism a good friend of
mine - a master mechanic -- used to say often.  Why have we to do
the same thing twice ?

Best wishes as always,

Dal


mkr




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Subject: Diseases
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:46:26 -0500
X-Message-Number: 5

This is a subject we have discussed in the past.

Here is what I found in ML to APS:

Writing about Evil, Master K.H. says:


It is not nature that creates diseases, but man. The latter's
mission and
destiny in the economy of nature is to die his natural death
brought by old
age; save accident, neither a savage nor a wild (free) animal
dies of
disease. Food, sexual relations, drink, are all natural
necessities of
life; yet excess in them brings on disease, misery, suffering,
mental and
physical, and the latter are transmitted as the greatest evils of
future
generations, the progeny of culprits.

====================

What is very telling is the recognition of sexual relations and
drink among
the natural necessities of life, which some feel incompatible
with spiritual
progress.

When a novice reads the theosophical classics and runs into the
traditional
members many of whom may not agree with the above, the novice is
at a loss
to understand.

=============================

  Dallas:	YOU WILL NOT FIND THAT TH MAHATMAS PRACTICE THIS
business of pretense.  with them the LAW is all they OBEY.  If
they did not do so voluntarily, then they would cease to be
MAHATMAS.  ther is no pretense in occultism.  The life of the
true occultist is only the service of others and nothing must be
taken as a personal advantage for himself.  that is a rule you
will find in ML.

So if you observe that there are those who claim occult power, --
1st. the very claim destroys any esotericism and any occultism.
It is advertising and vanity.  2nd. no one will consent to occupy
a position of responsibility without applying it universally, to
the point of resigning if the orders given to him are not just
and fair.  There is a rule that states that no money or any
personal benefit should be asked by one who offers help or occult
instruction.  Those destroy the good value if any of the gift.
One cannot buy a book or take a course in occultism.  But one can
read and think and take the best advice available.  that is
permitted.  But all decisions are inevitably the exercise of
one's own free-willed decision.

There is no point in continuing to work with a person ( or an
organization) that is not totally honest.  So long as HPB was
alive that was observed in and around her in the TS, and no one
wanted to have her go anywhere.  She was forced out of Adyar in
1894/5 by the foolish fears of the Council whom a bewildered
Occult adopted because his own fears caused a temporary lack of
trust in the Mahatmas -- and not realizing that the Mahatmas had
plans and contingencies laid down.. It was a test of their
sincerity and trust in the Mahatmas, and sad to say, they
"failed."

So HPB left, went to Europe and England and did the work there,
producing in 3 years the SECRET DOCTRINE.  There were enough
persons who recognized her worth to rally around and assist her.

Read HPB's letter of April 30th 1890 to the Indian theosophists
when they asked her to return.  The influence and the protection
of the Mahatmas waned and with Damodar's departure for Their
ashram, it went altogether.  Have you seen or read HPB's letter
(April 1890) written to Indian Theosophists at the time when they
later requested her return?  It is titled:  WHY I DO NOT RETURN
TO INDIA.  Bertram Keightley took it there by ship, and
personally delivered it to the Council and to Olcott.  It is in
the archives there and was not publicly printed until it appeared
in the THEOSOPHIST for January 1922.  [ULT 3 Vol. edition of
HPB's Articles,  Vol. 1, p. 106-13. )  If you do not have this, I
can send it to you.  I think it was also reproduced in Blavatsky,
COLLECTED WORKS, XI p. 481.

And further read HPB's:  A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR -- published in
LUCIFER Vol. 4, p. 506, Aug. 1889,  ULT HPB Articles  Vol. I,
p. 217.

My purpose is not to stir up the muddy water of past errors, but
rather to show you what I have learned in reviewing the old
magazines and documents.  HPB was absolutely adamant and
trenchant in her application of the rules of honesty, sincerity,
and the highest of intentions -- and, she expected others to do
the same.  These are an index to the requirements for
chelaship.  In regard to the last HPB wrote a number of articles.
One these carries some of the Rules of the occult school of the
mahatmas:  "PRACTICAL OCCULTISM"  this was published in LUCIFER
for April 1888 and correspondence on this will be found continued
in May and June issues for 1888. [ By the way this is NOT the
small booklet entitled "Practical Occultism" and attributed by
the TPH in Adyar to HPB.  That booklet is heavily edited and
contains more than half written by other writers.  If you wish to
have a list I will be glad to send it to you.  I made this some
years back and then I protested to the TPH in Adyar -- and got no
acknowledgment, nor have they changed the title or withdrawn the
book..]

Should we do any less ?

Even if we are ignorant and uncertain, (and usually I am) we
ought to do that which seems the best  to do. And not remain
unmoving.  [ see the very last 2 pages of the Gita where Sri
Krishna says finally to Arjuna: :thus I have made known unto thee
this knowledge which is more secret than secrecy itself;  ponder
it fully in thy mind;  act as seemeth best unto thee." ]

That is as I see it.  Sri Krishna after exposing the whole wisdom
of the Universe gives freedom to his chela Arjuna to "act as
seemeth best unto thee."  We all have to take the final
decisions.  It is the outer self of the mind and the feelings who
has to act.  The Inner SELF, that aspect of Sri Krishna which "is
seated in the heart of all beings (and also in ours)" gives
freely the UNIVERSAL and practical  ADVICE which is fair, just
and impartial.  We have to develop the strength of carrying it
out wit a gentle firm and unrelaxed mind and heart.



I think this is enough and hope I have not bored you.

Best wishes,


Dal


=================================
mkr






              Dallas TenBroeck
               dalval@nwc.net




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K
Ramadoss
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 3:07 PM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: RE: Theos-World What happened here. Ask and ye shall
receive !


Dear Dallas:
You have raised to many issues and it is mind boggling to me!!!

However I think the issues are very important that we should
consider what
light has been thrown on them by the writings of HPB and what the
Adepts
have stated in the correspondence they had with APS.

To start with, without being able to quote verbatim, it is my
understanding
that Karma operates at all levels and all we can possibly
understand with
our intellects is partial picture based on some facts we may be
familiar
with either personally or from what has been reported.

A question I recently posted in another maillist regarding the
speeding up
of the Karma and one subscriber pointed out that in ML to APS,
the Adept
did clearly state that during the probationary period the all the
person's
strengths and weaknesses are brought to the forefront. Just one
aspect of
the Karma.

You asked and you are receiving my response.

mkr



At 01:58 AM 4/30/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>April 29th
>
>Louis -- a mini-pralaya no doubt -- I received nothing either
>
>Lets start some discussion running on the 2nd Object of the
>Theosophical Movement and see if it has anything to do with the
>2nd fundamental -- that LAW  (Karma) is everywhere ?  What do
the
>various religions and philosophies have to say about Law.  By
>what rationale is that placed in the hands of a "god?"  Is such
a
>god the Universe or something less or above and beyond the
>Universe ?  If so where is he, she, it to be found and how do we
>know that (IT) has any care at all for this puny earth and all
>the billions of any-like intelligent animals crawling all over
>it -- such as we must appear to be to such a grand being ?
>
>How is that we even question these things ?
>
>Some people think Karma (or their personal cause/effect trail)
is
>a local matter and that it perversely trails us like a docile
>puppy;  and others would rather not even meet that prospect or
>deal with Karma and have (or set up) as many escape routes as
>they can imagine.
>
>Can we really live and do as we please and escape the results ?
>
>How is it that Nature supports and nourishes us anyhow ?
>
>If we abuse it, why don't we get "dumped?"
>
>If the Universe is one whole -- then, don't we share in
>everything ?
>
>If one part of us is based in the SPIRIT, then should we not use
>whatever knowledge we can get of or from that, to regulate our
>lives ?
>
>Why is there so much aversion to discipline?
>
>Why doe many scholars labor to understand what the ancient meant
>when the wrote?  Were they wise or foolish, or did them use a
>different meaning to language than we do now.
>
>Can we assign our present civilization's values and motive to
the
>ancients ?  Or could they have had other ones ?
>
>Have you read "Forbidden Archaeology" published in San Diego ?
>
>Have you ever read any of the books of Emmanuel Velikovsky ?
> wrote between 1945 and 1952 4 books.
>
>What about Charles Fort ?  Ever read any of  his ?
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Dallas
>
>
>              Dallas TenBroeck
>               dalval@nwc.net
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
>[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of
>Teos9@aol.com
>Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 12:47 PM
>To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
>Subject: Theos-World What happend here.
>
>
>Helloooooo,
>
>Is anyone home? It just occured to me that I have not seen any
>posts from my
>favorite site for several days, It been all B/N. Is something
>wrong? Have I
>bben "unsubscribed"? Or is a mini pralaya upon us? Please
advise,
>if you can.
>
>Louis
>
>-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk --
>theos-talk@theosophy.com
>
>Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
>teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message
consisting
>of
>"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to
theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
>
>
>-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk --
theos-talk@theosophy.com
>
>Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
>teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message
consisting of
>"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to
theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.
>
>

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