Theos-World Responses to Peter
Apr 05, 1999 08:26 AM
by Gerald Schueler
>>That is why when I put a view based on my understanding of the SD,
"The Key to Theosophy", or the Mahatma Letters
etc., I try, as often as I can, to show where it comes from, by giving
the reference and / or quoting the passage. As this is a Theosophy
group this seems to me a reasonable approach.>>
The problem, Peter, is that I also use my own understanding
of the SD, the Key, etc, etc. And I have never yet read any
quote by you, Dallas, or anyone else, that seemed to be
against anything I have said. When a quote is given, it shows
me how that person interprets the quoted words, but it
doesn't "prove" anything at all in most cases.
>>This way, when we are looking at important Theosophical Doctrines, we
can move beyond the flag waving of personal opinions and anecdotal
experiences and see if there is any substance from the Teachings
themselves to support
our views. >>
All we have are our opinions. The notion that we can quote
"sources" and be impersonal is ridiculous as the history
of Christianity clearly shows.
In a psychological sense, we each have our own worldview
as well as our own self-image, two vitally important factors
for mental health. Whenever any data comes to us from
either outside ourselves or within ourselves, we compare
and contrast it to these two factors, and tweak them as
necessary. It is our memories and interpretrations of external
events (which includes the words that we read) and internal
events that we carry with us. The events themselves
cannot ever be grapsed per se. Thus we each walk away
from events, including reading and studying and discussion,
with our own interpretations and memories which may or
may not compare with those of others who underwent
similar events.
>> By showing what my 'sources' are it allows other members of the list
to look them up for themselves and draw their own conclusions.>>
Agreed. But please quit getting all upset when my conclusion
doesn't agree with yours. Some folks on this list seem to have
the idea that by quoting source material everyone will jump
into line with their interpretation of the quote and get angry
when this doesn't happen. I get asked for quotes all the time.
I used to provide them. I discovered that it didn't make any
difference at all because folks still wouldn't agree, or would
plain ignore the quotes. For example, Rich and I provided
quotes from Jey Tsongkapa, Naropa, and other sources
showing that sex was used by very high level Masters
to produce bliss (see Glenn Mullins book on the Six Yogas
of Naropa, for example) and our quotes have been ignored
except for Daniel who asked some good questions that
no one has responded to. So, the bottom line here is that
quotes are thrown around to back up one's personal
opinion all the time and they do not usually go very far
in changing the minds of others.
>> It also gives people an opportunity to point out to me where I may
have misunderstood what HPB or the Masters have said, or simply to add a
richer viewpoint.>>
I would challenge you to provide us with a single time when this
occurred. The real advantage of exchanging viewpoints (and
quotes are only that) is that sometimes the ideas presented
simmer in our unconscious background for awhile, and one
day may pop out into consciousness, often in the disguise
of one's own idea. We seldom are changed by someone
else's viewpoint right away but often are after some time
goes by and the information is allowed to be"digested".
>>Yet while I have encouraged it of you many times, you have yet to give
a single example or reference from HPB's or her Teachers' works to
support what you are saying. >>
Nor can you find me one quote that disavows anything I
have said. Why should I spend all my time and do all the
work when I doubt very much it will matter anyway?
And I really have provided some quotes, Peter. The idea
that both good and bad karma must be eliminated is
right in the Inner Group Teachings as I have said many
times just to have you keep ignoring it.
>>You simply proclaim that all the major eastern religions, HPB and the
Masters, and all the world's Occultists and Mystics
agree with you. >>
Perhaps a better way of saying it is that my interpretations
of occult and mystical writings all tend to agree with my
worldview and self-image. Is this better? As I grow, my
interpretations change, and my worldview and self-image
get tweaked accordingly. This is actually what we all do,
but if you want to single me out as being special, then
fine.
>>Yet when something quite the opposite to what you state is put forward
from HPB and the Masters, or even from other traditions from whom you
claim support, you seem just to ignore it.>>
HPB and her Masters have never "put forward" anything
opposite to my own views, which are nothing more than
my own interpretations of what HPB and her Masters have
said. What I do disagree with, is your interpretations of
her words. And this is all I or anyone else can do. When
I read one of your quotes that you think opposes my view
and I think substantiates it, why should I bother to reply?
I have challanged you and others before to give me a
quote from the "source material" that flies in the face
of anything I have said except the sex issue (ie the virtues
of celibacy) where I am on record as having another
opinion. The need for celibacy was HPB's opinion, and
the opinion of her Masters. Other Masters from other
schools have an opposing opinion on this issue. I think
that disagreements of this nature are allowed within the
broad unbrella of Theosophy, don't you? And even on
this emotional issue I am on record as accepting the idea
of voluntary celibacy as part of a purification program.
It is forced celibacy and the idea that celibacy is
essential for spiritual progress that I oppose (a book
called Lust for Enlightenment clearly shows both sides
of this issue).
I have already found that many on this list mis-interpret
(IMHO) HPB's definitions of eternal and universal, both
of which have carefully defined meanings. She did
NOT mean these terms to be equivalent to timeless and
spaceless and this, I think, has caused us to
argue over interpretations of certain of her passages.
Jerry S
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