Theos-Talk Archives (March 1999 Message tt00214)

Mar 17th 1999

SOME NOTES BELOW  Dal

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-----Original Message-----
From:	owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of
Gerald Schueler
Sent:	Wednesday, March 17, 1999 8:43 AM
To:	theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject:	Theos-World Response to Dallas on Karma

>>For understanding, one may fragment the understanding of KARMA
as GdeP
does.  But what good does it do ?  WE are taught that all Karma
is
generated primarily in our emotional nature (Kama) -desire and
passion.
Then the lower mind ( Kama-Manas) is invoked to seek ways and
means of
implementing what are unethical proposals.>>

I disagree with what "we are taught."  Karma is simply
the law of causation. The word means action, and implies
and every action will have an effect and that every effect
had a cause. Causation is within time and eplains what
happens over time. Modern physics has learned, kicking
and screaming, that acausal events also occur.

DALLAS
I was taught, and then I thought about that and found the
propositions were useful and probably true.  I think we are all
self taught.  We are offered ideas and whether we accept them or
not, they are either universally true or as you say later the
words they are couched in make them obscure.  I like to know what
I am dealing with.


>>If Karma is a universal and impartial law that rules the whole
of
everything, then why should any transgression against honesty,
fairness, openness, "treating others as we would be treated,"
etc.. have exceptions ?>>

You constantly mix up karma with morality. "Treating others"
is a moral issue, not necessarily a karmic one. Karma is
impartial, and thus ammoral.


DALLAS
Sorry don't intend to mix up the two (if by "morality" you mean
ethics - and not "customary mores).  Of course ETHICS are
UNIVERSAL as the LAW OF KARMA is UNIVERSAL.  As far as I know
they are inflexible.  You (or I) "gets back" in terms of effect
what "you sows" in terms of causes.  If they have an ethical
impact then you and I get an ethical response.  You can't have a
Universe in which the laws are pretty much as you wish them to
be, even if whiskey was once called "FIRE-WATER."  We all know
the  difference.  But for cause and effect we want special
solutions and partial responses.  Why "

Whose afraid of the "big bad Wolf named - Karma ?


>I always ask myself about the VICTIMS.

We are ALL victims. We are all victims of causation.


DALLAS
 Yes but who sets CAUSATION into activity and invites those
causes to go into motion as effects?  I can understand that we do
not LIKE those EFFECTS but what has that to do with the LAW that
is both universal and just ?

We are here, so how do we deal with that, and what is to be done
to make the best of what we are involved in?


>> All of those relied on HPB and the
Masters' writings (which came through her).>>

As do I.

>The Universe runs under immutable laws

These laws cannot be put into words without distortion.
Karma is causation, and is a "law" within our 7-plane solar
system.


DALLAS
I agree about distortions, but the words do not create them,
their use is determined by our thinking.  Also there is a gap at
times between what we write and what our corespondent understand
we mean.


>>The Universe is eternal in the ultimate sense and boundless and
indescribable.>>

Certainly not our physical universe or physical solar system.
As to any occult meaning, I believe that we each have our
own universe, and we carry it around with us all the time.


DALLAS
You also know perfectly well that I did not mean the physical
Universe, but rather the metaphysical one on which everything
rests as a base.


>Human Monads are portions of that ONENESS.

Please explain how a Oneness can have "portions."
This is very illogical, and even as a paradox I don't buy it.
I also consider the term "human monad" as misleading.
There simply is no such thing. Spirituality has a
characteristic feeling of oneness because
there we are close to the divine Monad.


DALLAS
There is such a thing as a UNITY OF UNITS. The metaphysician
knows that there are fundamental planes that are causative to the
blur we call the physical.
This is dealt with in extenso in the SD.  The physical is not the
only or the all of life.  Our thoughts are not physical, although
the brain shows electrical impulses concurrent with their passage
through it.  But what is the Mind and where is it?  Who directs
the Mind ?  and where and what is that ?


>Every being of what ever kind is an integral part of the
ONENESS.>

Try to define "integral part."


DALLAS
The SPIRITUAL causative plane is UNIVERSAL.  We are in it and
also a part of it.  Therefore the allegory of SPACE is employed
in trying to convey the idea of the ABSOLUTE.  All beings that
are "in manifestation," the entire UNIVERSE is made of those
"integral parts" of the WHOLE.  How else ?


>On this Procrustean bed how does "forgiveness" shape up?
To me it is delusionary in all senses.>


I am sorry to hear you say that forgiveness is a delusion.
I suspect you will be treading the Wheel of Life for lots
of lifetimes to come (not a bad thing if you like it).


DALLAS
Makes no difference if I do or not.  If I am an immortal, then
time does not seem to be of any great consequence.  Now or later,
in any case whatever duties are mind I will be doing.  The idea
of a nice long rest sounds awfully boring to me.  Sleep is an
impediment.

As to "forgiveness" I think it is automatically due to anyone who
hurts another, since that must be done in ignorance of the LAW.
How can you blame another immortal for its participation in our
bad Karma.  How can I resent such an event, since and resentment
and consequent revenge might only increase the ultimate suffering
that might be mine.  How do we learn in such an environment?  The
Buddha said it simply:  "Cease from evil.  Do good.  This is the
Way."  And that takes a lot of self-study.


>Neither NATURE (the Univese) nor "WE" ever "forget."

Well, we certainly do forget in the short term. But I
agree that "we" don't forget anything in the long term.
However, we can, and should, forgive.

DALLAS
OF COURSE I AM WITH YOU IN REGARD TO THE FORGIVENESS OF OTHERS
WHO THROUGH THEIR IGNORANCE, MAY HAVE ACTIVELY WRONGED US.



>Who defends the rights of the victims to secure for them
equitable redress ?>

Your concern for "victims" is admirable. However, every
living being is a victim of something or someone, and
every living being is a predator for something or someone
too. Again, you needlessly mix morality with karma.


DALLAS
I am sure concerned with the victims - as anyone ought to be.
Aren't you?  If we know they are victims, then we also know that
creating such a situation is not the ideal way to be living, is
it ?

Some of the views of the "church" encourage evil doing with the
"carrot" of forgiveness.  I have heard it expressed as:  "Sin no
more my son, you are absolved, and hurry back when in your
weakness and self-delusion you repeat the same offence.  Holy
Church exists to do this endlessly."  I always liked the
statement made by someone to a Priest:  "If we, none of us,
sinned, you would be out of business."


Best wishes,

Dal


Jerry S.

















































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