Theos-Talk Archives (January 1999 Message tt00196)

I just read that someone wanted to know what happened to Elizabeth Claire
Prophet. Last week, on NPR, it was mentioned that she was stepping down as
head of her origanization due to Alzheimers disease. I do not remember the
day or time. The story was dropped after that announcement.
Barbara

> Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 7:00 AM
> Subject: theos-talk-digest V1 #668
>
>theos-talk-digest         Friday, 15 January 1999      Volume 01 : Number
668
>
>
>This is the digest form of Theosophical Talk, a mailing list
>for letters to the editor of THEOSOPHY WORLD and discussion
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>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>From: "Leon Maurer" <leonmaurer@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:58:56 EST
>Subject: Re: Re: Tibetan Book of the Dead & Theosophy
>
>In a message dated 1/14/99 9:05:12 PM, gschueler@netgsi.com writes:
>
>>>Why does HPB not reference it?
>>
>>There are several problems even more pronounced. One
>>is her insistence on a past life review. Now many of us who
>>have "almost" died had had such a review, including myself.
>>However, although Tibetan Lamas have great details about
>>the bardo or after-death state, they have absolutely no
>>mention of any past-life review.  HH the Dali Lama was
>>asked about this, and had no answer other than the Lamas
>>have never detected such a review.
>
>I agree with this observation, since I, too, have had a "near death"
>experience that included a complete past-life review.  (But not "past", in
the
>sense of previous "lives".).  However, such a review is not an "after
death"
>experience, but occurs in the state of transition between life and
death--when
>the person "realizes" that death is approaching.  Technically, this is in
the
>8 minutes that it takes the brain to die.  Therefore, the Book of the Dead
>would have no reference to his review, nor would any lamas, because it and
>they would only be concerned with the actual "after death" state of Kama
Loka
>(which starts only when the brain is totally discharged of energy and
finally
>biologically dead).
>
>I would be curious to know what other "problems" there might be that would
>cause HPB to ignore this book (which, as far as I have heard, is actually a
>manual for an exoteric religious ritual funerary practice, and used as a
guide
>for departing souls passing through the lower astral realms).  I don't
think
>it was any part of HPB's mandate to give out or promote such cultish or
>religious practices in her expositions of pure esoteric theosophy.  Do you
>think maybe she had planned to write about it in her projected volume 4 of
the
>S.D. which was supposed to talk about "magic" practices, psychism and the
>like?  (I also wouldn't be surprised, however, if someone found a mention
of
>it in her many other writings and articles on many such subjects.)
>
>LHM
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Leon Maurer" <leonmaurer@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:22:48 EST
>Subject: Re: AC & HPB
>
>In a message dated 1/14/99 10:07:52 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes:
>
>>LeonMaurer@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> >       No more than Theosophy was. Hitler was an equal opportunity idea
>>> >twister, and a lot of people were fooled by the early Nazi party.
>>>
>>> That's a new twist.  Are you saying that Theosophy supplied the
>justification
>>> for Hitler's and the Nazi's genocide?  Where did you get that from?  Or,
>are
>>> you also in the same group of propagandists as the other Crowley lovers,
>>>black magic justifiers, and HPB detractors?
>>
>> Hitler took concepts from many occult groups, and twisted them based on
>>his concept of the Germanic peoples being the only true humans, and the
>>others of what we term "humanity" are really subhumans, similar to the
>>apes. He twisted noble ideas into horrible and evil mockeries of the
>>originals. Theosophy was one of the sources of those ideas, as was the
>>OTO.
>
>Mostly true. . . But, I wonder why Hitler arrested and imprisoned or killed
>all members of the TS, and left all the O.T.O. and GD people alone.
Theosophy
>as a philosophy of Universal Brotherhood and Divine Wisdom could not have
been
>the source of any of Hitler's ideas--although the S.D. itself might have
been,
>since it discussed racial evolution, ancient magic, and their symbology.
But,
>that was all known since ancient times by the members of the GD, its O.T.O.
>and A.'.A.'. spin offs, and its precursor magical societies--who were
Hitler's
>philosophers, instructors and SS associates.  Theosophy, per se, has no
>relationship to any of that, by implication or otherwise.
>
>>> "Universal Brotherhood" and pure "altruism" in word and deed. . .  Just
>>>the opposite of what both Hitler and Crowley preached.
>>
>> There were a number of early Nazi supporters in the Theosophical
>>Society, until the Nazi's showed their true colors.
>
>Yes.  But I wonder why they didn't know "their true colors" right from the
>beginning since Hitler laid them out thoroughly in Mein Kampf long before
he
>took over Germany as Chancellor.  The same might be said for any GD, O.T.O
or
>A.'.A.'. members or followers of Crowley who claim to be theosophists,
while
>also defending or apologizing for black magic practices or non-altruistic
>ideologies
>
>>> Besides, how could the "V" sign be a substitute for the swastika?
>>
>> I didn't say a substitute; I said it was to COUNTERACT the swastika as
>>a symbol.
>
>But I said the "V" was a "sign" not a symbol.  The swastika as used by
Hitler
>was a "symbol" of the NAZI party (NSDAP)--and was pictured as a black,
"left
>turning" (sinester) swastika representing the "magical" power of "Thor's
>Hammer", on a circular white field representing racial purity, over a red
>background, representing the blood oath to eliminate, by death, all enemies
of
>National Socialism as well as all "inferior" races--(as Hitler outlined
such
>aims in his book, Mein Kampf).  But as I said, the "V" was a signification
of
>Victory, and used solely as a direct inspirational "sign" in speeches and
>personal greetings. . .  And, as such, it could not be a "symbol" of
anything
>as specific as, nor could it have been designed to "counteract", Hitler's
use
>of the Nazi swastika symbol which was designed to represent the criminal
>ideology of his ruling party.
>
>LHM
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Richard Taylor" <richtay@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:32:08 EST
>Subject: Tibetan Book of the Dead & Theosophy
>
>In a message dated 1/15/99 3:03:10 AM, Leon wrote:
>
><<I would be curious to know what other "problems" there might be that
would
>cause HPB to ignore this book (which, as far as I have heard, is actually a
>manual for an exoteric religious ritual funerary practice, and used as a
guide
>for departing souls passing through the lower astral realms). >>
>
>It is quite true that the Bardo Thodol text is now used that way by many
(not
>nearly all) Tibetans.  However, the origin of the text, according to
Tibetan
>mythic tradition, is that it was a "hidden" (terma) text, planted in the
7th
>century by the founder of Tibetan Buddhism, Padmasambhava.  It was then
>discovered in the 13th century by Karma Lingpa.  So the book's history, if
one
>accepts the legend, is quite esoteric.  It's use now is quite exoteric.
>Anyone heard from Elizabeth Clare Prophet lately?  That woman is using
>Theosophical ideas and names and specific teachings as exoterically and
>financially as anyone could, I think.  Shall we thus impugn the source of
>Theosophy, because certain scoundrels see fit to abuse and "exotericize"
it?
>
>Leon further writes,
>
><<I don't think it was any part of HPB's mandate to give out or promote
such
>cultish or religious practices in her expositions of pure esoteric
>theosophy.>>
>
>Couldn't agree more.  On the other hand, the Bardo Thodol *need not* be
used
>that way, even though it *often is* used that way.
>
>Rich
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Richard Taylor" <richtay@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:31:50 EST
>Subject: Re: RE: Response to Rich
>
>In a message dated 1/15/99 12:30:09 AM, Jerry wrote:
>
>>  There are, according to the Tibetan schools,
>> three such levels of Buddha's teachings. The
>> lowest addresses the Sutras, which is where HPB got virtually all
>> of her Buddhism (Olcott never got much higher than this anywhere that
>> I can tell).
>
>and Paul responded,
>
><<What "Tibetan schools" are these?>>
>
>Are you asking because you don't know what a Tibetan school is, or are you
>asking what the various Tibetan schools are?  All four Tibetan schools
>(Gelugspa, Sakyapa, Kargyudpa and Nyingmapa) hold to the Vajrayana
("Diamond
>Vehicle") path of Buddhism.  That's what makes Tibetan Buddhism so
important,
>and why HPB continually pointed to Tibetan Buddhism as the most pure.
>
>All four Tibetan traditions hold to what Jerry stated.  Furthermore, HPB
bases
>her ENTIRE SECRET DOCTRINE on quotes from commentaries to the Tibetan canon
>which she spells Kiu-Te.  For those who have been asleep the last few
months
>on this list, the Kiu-Te = Tibetan Tantras.  That's what the word Kiu-Te
>(rGyud-sDe) means.  Don't take my word for it, read the book by David
Reigle,
>THE BOOKS OF KIU-TE, OR THE TIBETAN TANTRAS (1983) available from Wizard's
>Bookshelf, San Diego.  I have their ordering address if anyone would like
it.
>
>
><<Would you not agree that that which is public knowledge is, by default,
>exoteric?>>
>
>Yes, Paul, all printed knowledge commonly available cannot be truly said to
be
>"esoteric."  Therefore, all HPB wrote is now "exoteric," even if we may
assume
>her source, with the complete teachings of the Wisdom Tradition, remains
>"esoteric."
>
>I would point out that the texts of Tibetan Buddhism, with rare exceptions,
>were until 20 years ago, completely non-available to anyone in any Western
>language.  To this day, copies of the Tibetan canon, even in Tibetan, are
>EXTREMELY RARE and 99% untranslated.  I guess that makes them esoteric.
More
>esoteric than HPB's Theosophy, at present.  And so what?
>
>I strongly doubt that simply being "esoteric" makes something "true."  So
>let's lay off the one-up-manship and claims to esoteric authority, and what
>source is more esoteric, and therefore more important.  What would that
prove?
>HPB stands head and shoulders above every spiritual writer this century or
>last.  We needn't trip over ourselves in our rush to unsully her
reputation.
>She and her teachings are beyond our puny attempts to attack or defend.
>
>Rich
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Peter Merriott" <peter.merriott@dial.pipex.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:53:27 -0000
>Subject: RE: HPB - agent of the Mahatmas
>
>Hi Alan,
>
>Peter wrote
> <snip>
>> ...Likewise the teachings of theosophy can
>> act as a plumb line by which the teachings of others and my own small
>> insights may be gauged.  And within all this each of us most
>> develop his/her own intuition.<<
>
>Alan replied:
>>
>> Isn't this the same as accepting HPB words as god-sent and literal as the
>> Christians do the bible? What about change, progress, progressive
>> revelation, adding things she might have missed or not wrote about.
>>
>> I do agree, I think, that having a solid foundation (maybe through
>> theosophy) prepares one to venture out and examine other ideas.
>
>That's a valid concern Alan.  It is so important that we don't accept HPB's
>words (or anyone's) literally and on blind faith.  Especially so when in
the
>Occult World things are never as they seem on the surface.  I think if we
>can approach this work as sincere students of the Inner Life then there is
>at least the chance that we can catch ourselves when we do so.  When I
speak
>of using those teachings as a "plumb line" this statement comes out of 30
>years of studying the Theosophy and other traditions rather than on blind
>faith.
>
>I guess it is the same as any form of study /research.  We could never
>regard ourselves as being a genuine student / researcher of (say)
psychology
>or physics if all we did was accept at face value and without question what
>other researchers and leading exponents had to say.  We need to develop our
>own understanding and be willing to test propositions along with making a
>sincere attempt to understand the teachings as given.  However, as we
>progress we do begin to discern that there are certain sources of
>information and insight that invariably carry the hallmark of truth.  We
>thereby learn to trust them as worthy of our deepest consideration and use
>them as a reference point in our endeavours.
>
>I like your question about progress, change etc.  I am sure that there is a
>great deal that HPB and her Teachers withheld.  But with regards to what
was
>given out I can only say that in all my years of study and research I have
>not found anything that touches the depths that the Secret Doctrine,
Mahatma
>Letters and so on touches upon.  When I think of the three fundamental
>propositions in the Proem of the SD and the teachings underpinning the rest
>of that monumental work I have yet to see anything that has 'improved' on
>these.  At the same time I have found many writings from a variety of
>sources that have helped me to a better understanding of the underlying
Laws
>and principles expounded in the teachings of Theosophy.
>
>What about you, Alan?  How do you answer your own questions?
>
>Best wishes
>
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Richard Taylor" <richtay@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:32:03 EST
>Subject: Response to Rich
>
>In a message dated 1/14/99 9:35:25 PM, you wrote:
>
><<Probably the single most important teaching in all Buddhism is emptiness,
>and this HPB never discusses. .  I will probably get flames for this, but
it
>is my opinion after years of comparison work, and I would challenge anyone
who
>disagrees to do more than just vent their spleen and show sources.>>
>
>No flame here, Jerry.  If what you say is true, it would very deeply
concern
>me, since that teaching is so fundamental to mysticism generally,
especially
>Buddhism.  But I wonder if HPB does teach this subject, without using the
>Sanskrit word "sunyata" or "emptiness/voidness."  There are places in the
SD
>(Dallas will surely jump in here, and Paul probably as well) that HPB
mentions
>Space as the highest abstract representation of reality.  Her "homogeneous
>element" may also be a parallel to Buddhist emptiness, though granted in a
>more positive vein than most Buddhists would state it.  Some Tibetans
identify
>reality as "rigpa," an untranslateable term, I fear, but meaning something
>like "ultimate, ordinary nature."  And rigpa is said by Tibetans to have
"one
>flavor," no matter what way in which one perceives it.  Reminds me of HPB's
>"one essence."
>
>There is also a curious Meditation Diagram that all serious students of HPB
>should have.  (If any list members don't have it, do email me privately
your
>mailing address, and I'll send off a photocopy.)  This meditation diagram,
>something I believe her Inner Group received, has one begin by conceiving
>UNITY, "Expansion in space and infinite in time."  This also seems to me
the
>functional equivalent of Buddhist emptiness, though again more positively
>phrased than most Madhyamaka Buddhists (like Tsong Kha Pa) would tolerate.
>
>So there are hints that HPB is teaching emptiness, though not as the
Buddhists
>would have it.  Again, I think HPB was not *merely* a Buddhist, though all
>Theosophists should be aware that HPB was IN FACT a Buddhist, in the
>completely literal and symbolic senses.
>
>HPB took Buddhist pansil (preliminary vows) in public in Sri Lanka upon
>arrival, 1880 I believe, and she was called by her Master "upasaka," which
is
>a technical Buddhist term meaning "lay disciple."  The Mahachohan in His
>letter states that Buddhism is the religion nearest the esoteric teaching,
and
>HPB, herself, calls her inner students "Lanoos" in the beginning of the
Voice.
>(Lanoo is the Tibetan for chela, "pledged disciple."  It is --solely-- a
>Tibetan Buddhist term.)  So those who would distance HPB from Buddhism are
>simply, truly, ignorant.
>
>On the other hand, I would not try to entrap HPB in Buddhism.  She states
that
>the esoteric teachings might be identified by some onlookers with
"Yogacharya
>[Buddhism]", but in fact they were "not quite" the same.  While I think
list
>members are quite silly in referring to Vajrayana Buddhism as "exoteric"
(as
>if HPB's teachings are "esoteric" when they are published in black and
white
>???), I think it is correct to state that HPB taught more than the
Buddhists
>do, and she taught it differently.  At present, I think that's all any of
us
>can say for sure.
>
>Rich
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Darren Porter" <dport@ozemail.com.au>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:38:10 +1000
>Subject: Re: AC & HPB
>
>Leon,
>
>My Apologies - in fact I've never actually seen a US $1 Bill. The Last
>episode of American Gothic had one of the characters cutting out the
>Illuminati Pyramid and pasting it all over his wall. And R.A. Wilson's
>Illuminatus Trilogy talks about where the seal came froma lot - but I've
>never seen the reverse of the Seal - can you enlighten me to it's design?
>The seal i refer to is the traditional Bavarian Illuminati Pyramid and Eye.
>
>Darren
>
>At 10:36 PM 1/13/99 EST, you wrote:
>>
>>In a message dated 1/14/99 1:57:01 AM, dport@ozemail.com.au writes:
>>
>>>Ah, so Leon doesn't know everything. I suggest you look into who REALLY
>>>designed the great seal of the USA. One Esoteric Clue........spartacus.
>>
>>I actually said, the "REVERSE of the Geat Seal" (which is on the left side
of
>>the backside of the Dollar Bill.)
>>>
>>>WLP
>>>
>>>"There is No Religion Higher than Truth"
>>>
>>>Motto of the Theosophical Society
>>
>>Actually that was a motto of HPB, "Satyat Nasti Paro Dharma", which she
said
>>was the motto of some Indian Rajah (I don't rememeber who that was, but
maybe
>>someone else may know and enlighten us).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>"There is No Religion Higher than Truth"
>
>Motto of the Theosophical Society
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Darren Porter" <dport@ozemail.com.au>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:38:54 +1000
>Subject: Re: Re: Tibetan Book of the Dead & Theosophy
>
>Comments Below
>
>Jerry wrote:
>>>(Me) :Why does HPB not reference it?
>>
>>
>>There are several problems even more pronounced. One
>>is her insistence on a past life review. Now many of us who
>>have "almost" died had had such a review, including myself.
>>However, although Tibetan Lamas have great details about
>>the bardo or after-death state, they have absolutely no
>>mention of any past-life review.  HH the Dali Lama was
>>asked about this, and had no answer other than the Lamas
>>have never detected such a review.
>>
>>Jerry S.
>
>
>I had not read the TBOTD before my NDE so had not seeded my subconscious
>with the ideas therein. Thus when I read the TBOTD afterwards I was amazed
>at how it mirrored my experience (except of course in the subjective nature
>of all bardo experiences which the text fully explains) - and I did not
>have a past life review. But I have also read a modern text which validates
>both the Eastern and Western views of death by saying that there is dual
>occurence, one for the conscious mind and one for the sub-conscious mind -
>depending on Karma of the current life one may experience one and be
>ignorant of the other - I also think that the universe knows whether your
>current death is going to be final or NDE, and you get the appropriate
>experience.
>
>We say that ISIS and the SD are the source of the esoteric science, but I
>feel that they are purely exoteric. How often does she point out that there
>is information that cannot be revealed except to initiates?
>
>If you were to speak to an initiate and could ask him anything, what would
>you ask to fill in the gaps in the SD?
>
>Somethings can not be put into words and must be experienced - gnosis or
>initiation - it's all the same, except that there is many so-called
>initiations, or what the west refers to as epiphanies or revelations, but
>these are mainly just to get you to rememebr something that you had long
>forgotten. But above all the initations is the final and only true
>initiation - the death and rebirth initiation. Until one has gone through
>this consciously then much of the so-called esoteric facts will just not be
>apparent.
>
>This is of course my own humble opion and I invite criticism.
>
>Cheers, Namaste, G'day Mate,
>
>Darren
>
>"There is No Religion Higher than Truth"
>
>Motto of the Theosophical Society
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Darren Porter" <dport@ozemail.com.au>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:08:03 +1000
>Subject: More on the Bardo Thodrol
>
>Just for interests sake here is the Table of Contents from my english
>translation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I'm sure people can make up
>their own minds as to it's actual purpose and intended use rather than what
>it is being used as.
>(Formatted in Max Window on Eudora Light)
>
>CONTENTS
>
>I. General Introduction
> A Tribute to W.Y Evans-Wentz
> A Tribute to C.G. Jung
> A Tribute to Lama Anagarika Govinda
>
>II The Tibetan Book of the Dead
> First Bardo : The Period of Ego-loss or Non-game Ecstacy
> Part One: The Primary clear light
> Part two:  The Secondary clear light
>
> Second Bardo: The Period of Hallucinations
> Introduction
> Second Bardo Explanation
> Vision 1: The Source
> Vision 2: The internal flow of archetypal processes
> Vision 3: The fire-flow of internal unity
> Vision 4: The wave-vibration structure of eternal forms
> Vision 5: The vibratory waves of external unity
> Vision 6: The retinal circus
> Vision 7: The magic theatre
> The wrathful visions
> Conclusion of Second Bardo
>
> Third Bardo: The Period of Re-Entry
> Introduction
> General description of the Third Bardo
> Ren-Entry visions
> The all-determining influence of thought
> The judgment vision
> Sexual visions
> Methods of preventing the re-entry
> Meditation on the Buddha
> Concentration on good 'action'
> Meditation on illusion
> Meditation on void
> Method of choosing the post-session personality
> General Conclusion
>
>
>
>***********************************
>If anyone is interested I could also post some of Lama Govinda's
>commentary.......
>
>"there ain't no space and time,
>to keep our love alive,
>we have existence but thats all we share"
>- - Space and Time, The Verve.
>
>
><insert signature here>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of theos-talk-digest V1 #668
>********************************
>
>