Theos-Talk Archives (December 1998 Message tt00235)

In a message dated 12/20/98 4:35:28 AM, blafoun@azstarnet.com wrote:

>SUBJECT:  Leon on Western Interpreters, karmamudra and leading
scholars/translators
>
>LeonMaurer@aol.com wrote:
>
>>"The problem is that Western interpreters of Tibetan teachings have used the
>>term 'karmamudra' specifically in reference to female form or seal in sexual
>>Tantra practice.  From a philological standpoint, this is wrong and totally
>>exoteric."
>
>Leon, I ask you---where do you get your definition of karmamudra in your
>earlier description of tulku?  David Reigle,
>a well-known Theosophist and student of
>Tibetan Buddhism, has never heard of your definition of karmamudra, at least
>not within the Gelukpa tradition.  He told me that it is not only Western
>interpreters who give this definition of karmamudra but ALSO Gelukpa lamas
>and the Dalai Lama himself who have given the same definition to the term.
>"For example, consult TSONGKHAPA'S SIX YOGAS OF NAROPA translated by >Glenn
Mullin.

I would rather ask one of my own Tibetan speaking scholarly friends to read it
directly from the original scrolls.  Besides, I wonder why these translators
you refer to (including the Dalai Lama) continue to use Sanskrit terms to
describe a Tibetan practices?

My definition comes from asking various people familiar with both the Tibetan
and Sanskrit languages, the meaning of the word "karma" and "mudra", used both
singly and in combination.  Those meanings are as I reported in my previous
posts.
>
>Is your definition of karmamudra derived from the Nyingma tradition?  Can you
>give a source from some Nyingma title?

The source is a personal one from a friend who was a Nyingma Lama and another
who is an advanced Gelugpa Geshe (both were or are students of HPB, and, so
they told me, find nothing inconsistent with esoteric Buddhism in its
fundamental teachings).  All they did was answer my query as to the meaning of
the Sanskrit term, karmamudra itself.  (The Lama was asked to translate the
word some years ago which I noted in my glossary)  Any Nyingma "title" that I
might refer to would simply be a translation of a Tibetan text that would use
the Sanskrit compound word "karma-mudra" to describe the Tibetan word (or
words) referring to the "action-form" used in Sexual Tantra..  That usage
would be simply an expediency for translators, since there is no word in
SansKrit describing this sexual Tantric functional form except in reference to
what it is (a mudra, or form) and what its function is (karma, or its
manipulation, in this case for purposes of Tulku).   So, since I was merely
referring to direct meanings of common words, and the similar usage of the
same words to describe functional forms in various other yogas, if you are not
happy with my definition, there's really nothing that I can do about it.  If
you need references, compare the various Buddhist, Tibetan and theosophical
glossaries or go to a Sanskrit dictionary and quote it.  (Or, if you can
channel, ask HPB, M,  KH.; or TK :-)  Incidentally none of this has much use
in any discussion of theosophy, and I wish this whole subject would just
disappear.  (As I might, soon.;-)
>
>In a previous email, you wrote:  ". . .  .my information is verified by two
of
>the leading Buddhist, Tibetan, and Sanskrit scholars and translators of
esoteric
>Tibetan texts in America today--both, theosophists and esoteric Tibetan
>Buddhists as well as my personal friends and colleagues). "

>Please cite the books or articles in which your two personal friends write on
>this subject.  It would also be interesting to know who these two leading
>scholars and translators are.  Are they open about being "theosophists" or
are >they "closet" theosophists?  David Reigle, the author of THE BOOKS OF
KIU-TE, >would be most happy to corrrespond with them on this and other
questions >related to Madame Blavatsky and Theosophy.

My two personal friends--while scholars of extremely broad knowledge in
esoteric fields of science, philosophy and religion, and quite familiar with
both the Sanskrit and Tibetan languages, as well as English, (if not also Sen-
Zar among others)--do not necessarily have to write any books on the subject
of Tantra practices.  In fact, I have no idea what Buddhist books they have
translated, since I am not much interested in Tibetan or Indian Buddhist
practices per se--other than the direct teachings of the Buddha and his
original auditors, just as I'm not much interested (anymore) in interpreters
or translators of HPB's writings--other than WQJ, my former scientific and
theosophical advisors (and, now, myself:-)   However, I will attempt to get
the information you seem to require when I can get in touch with either of
these scholars.  (Unfortunately, one of them, the Nyingmapa Lama, is now in
Devachan, and I don't know when he'll be back to answer your questions.;-)
The other might be interested.  I've informed him of your interest and we'll
wait and see.

Please explain to me what is a "closet theosophist"?  (Is that the same as a
"closet" homosexual--that is, someone who practices a particular life style
but hides it from those who practice other life styles?:-)   According to the
definition of a theosophist as "one in the true service of humanity"--how can
anyone say who is and who isn't a theosophist?  You can only know them by
their fruits, n'est pas?

As for my "scholarly" friends, while they may have been or are Buddhists (of
various sects, or members of no sect, but members of each and all) who studied
under Lama teachers out of original Tibetan texts, they are also students of
theosophy. . . But, to what degree they openly espouse theosophy, I cannot
say.   However, as far as I know, none of them need follow the teachings in
any "translation" of Tibetan or Sanskrit Buddhist texts--since they can
understand them in their native languages--similar to the way they (and we)
study the S.D. in its "native" language.

Incidentally, can you tell me why Buddhists (whether or not they are also
theosophists) are hanging out here and discussing non-theosophical 'organized"
religious practices?  I thought this was strictly a "theosophical" forum.  I'm
told there are at least a dozen Buddhist mailing lists out there that go quite
deeply into these subjects.  For us, it seems to be one of the "side issues"
that serve only to waste our time and energies--which could be put to much
better use in the practice and discussion of "practical theosophy"--and the
fulfillment of the "Plan of the Masters and the TM" along the "lines laid
down" by HPB. . .
"Before it's too late to relate"*.

When are the "real" theosophists going to wake up and smell the coffee?

LHM

*From: _The World According to Poet-O_ --world famous "homeless" street poet
of Central Park; http://www.centralpark.org/home.html - click "Featured"
http://www.zverina.com/poeto.htm
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/Block/Poet-OBookCover.html