Theos-Talk Archives (August 1998 Message tt00081)

The issue of celibacy and spiritual progress has come up from time to time.
While all of us know the traditional view, the revolutionary viewpoint
comes from Krishnaji who grew up in the traditional theosophical
environment. On this subject, here is an excerpt from a recent book by Mary
Lutyens on Krishnamurti, where she discusses the issue of Celibacy as seen
by Krishnaji.

..........mkr
=====================================

And he [K] never "presented" himself as being celibate. According to the
tenets of Leadbeater-Theosophy, celibacy was essential for any aspirant to
the Path of Discipleship but K broke away entirely from Theosophy and its
tenets in 1929 and thereafter often spoke publicly against celibacy. Here
are a few quotations from his published talks to prove this point:
"So-called holy men have maintained that you cannot come near God if you
indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with
it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their
tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their
hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished
beauty because beauty is associated with And again: "I think we should
understand what love and chastity are. The vow of chastity is not chastity
at all, for below the words the craving goes on and trying to suppress it in
different ways, religious and otherwise, is a form of ugliness which, in its
very essence, is unchaste. The chastity of the monk, with his vows and
denials, is essentially worldliness which is unchaste. All forms of
resistance build a wall of separateness which turns life into a battlefield;
and so life becomes not chaste at all." And yet again: "To deny sex is
another form of brutality; it is there, it is a fact. When we are
intellectual slaves, endlessly repeating what others have said, when we are
following, obeying, imitating, then a whole avenue of life is closed; when
action is merely a mechanical repetition and not a free movement, then there
is no release; when there is this incessant urge to fulfil, to be, then we
are emotionally thwarted, there is a blockage. So sex becomes the one issue
which is our very own, which is not second-hand. And in the act of sex there
is a forgetting of oneself, one's problems and one's fears. In that act
there is no self at all."

In answer to a question he was asked at a public meeting, "Is it possible
for a man and a woman to live together, to have sex and children, without
all the turmoil, bitterness and conflict in such a relationship?" K said,
"Can't you fall in love and not have a possessive relationship? I love
someone and she loves me and we get married, that is all perfectly
straightforward and simple, in that there is no conflict at all. (When we
say we get married I might just as well say we decide to live together.)
Can't one have that without the other? Without the tail, as it were,
necessarily following? Can't two people be in love and both be so
intelligent and so sensitive that there is freedom and an absence of a
centre that makes conflict? Conflict is not in the feeling of being in love.
The feeling of being in love is utterly without conflict. There is no loss
of energy in being in love. The loss of energy is in the tail, jealousy,
possessiveness, suspicion, doubt, the fear of losing that love, the constant
demand for reassurance and security. Surely it must be possible to function
in a sexual relationship with someone you love without the nightmare which
usually follows. Of course it is."
============================== end=================





At 07:54 PM 8/9/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>You have wonderfully summarized the natural conditions that exist.
>
>But many formal schools which are supposed to lead one towards spiritual
>develpment traditionally treated sex as a no-no for spiritual unfoldment and
>has been the accepted norm for centuries and many in theosophical circles
>still believe it so. I have no problem in any one personally believing
>anything including tooth fairy.
>
>In any case, I will still try to post very succinct summary on the issue of
>celibacy, when much fuss was made on the question of physical relationship
>Krishnamurti had with the wife of his business manager (manager himself was
>declared as an initiate of the Great Mysteries during Besant/Leadbeater days
>before Krishnamurti disbanded the Order of the Star of the East). The
>relationship was of course consensual between two adults.
>
>mkr
>--------------
>At 04:36 PM 8/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Doss wrote:
>>
>>>The traditional view is that celibacy is essential for spiritual progress
>>>and enlightenment. There is the contra view of Krishnaji which questions
>>>this. I will try to post Krishnaji's view on this which may be very
relevant.
>>
>>I am often confused on why one would choose to incarnate as a "human" and
>>then spend all one's time trying to avoid being a "human."  Perhaps it is
>>because so many humans think being a human is a "bad" thing and have
>>assigned so many terrible attributes to what encompasses being a human.
>>
>>Sex between two consenting adults - sex that is loving, communicative, and
>>mutually fulfilling is, in itself, an intercourse with the Divine.  It
>>helps one "grow," learn to share, learn to be attentive to the needs of
>>others.  Sex is an excellent instructor. . .why throw out this teacher?
>>> clip<<<<