Theos-Talk Archives (June 1998 Message tt00554)

June 23rd

Annette:

I write too much, in an effort to make my ideas understood -- and
you have sent so much that is good and lets me understand you and
what you are faced with.  Such experiences.
 No one is an "outsider."  We are all students with different
lines and degrees of proficiency -- but even those cannot be
categorized, as there are too many departments.  so we all learn
from each other.

Let me put some notes in at appropriate places (for clarity) in
what you write as I return it to you to look at.

Thanks,   Dal

> Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:28 PM
> From: "Annette Rivington" <libidium@globalserve.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: Dr. Bain and "Real Evidence"

>W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote:
>>
>> June 22nd
>>
>> Re:  quotes
>Dear Dallas:
>WHEW.  Boy can you ever write!  Just quickly to let you know
that I have
>read all this posting and have saved it as I believe it's a mini
>Theosophy course for an outsider like me.  Well received and
thank you.
>A few general comments so you can then relax (yes, that is a
kindly
>message)....
>
>> (We are
>> all such "rays," but we do not all feel or think we are.  If
so,
>> why ?)
>
>Because even though we all "came in" knowing we are, the
physical is
>either so seductive or so overpowering that we forget and have
to
>"learn" it or rather "release" it again.  I mean, if a four year
old
>child can describe how it all works and feels but shuts up for a
>lifetime when the system tells them a few dozen times "no you
don't know
>that or anything else yet" there's something pretty chronic at
work
>here!  That "we are all such rays" is not a point of debate for
me, the
>mystery for me as yet is ..... why go through this physical
process at
>all, and why not able to remember the original state except when
in an
>altered state?  Remember, I and many others have experienced the
>kundalini (sorry I can't spell) release to some extent, and the
escape
>from the body to the state of light or plasma, (and it's bloody
hard to
>come back and do one's laundry in all seriousness).
==============================================

DAl: The fact that we can viualise and understand these ideas
shows that they are not wrong, and that there is interorly a
STABLE element that give us meaning to ourselves.  We in our
waking, questing moment try to analyse that, and fit it into the
learning wehave acquired so far this incarnation.  But there is
always the background of our past lives where in other climes and
languages we have dealt with similar ideas.  I think that such
memories (reminiscences of the Soul) indicate theexistence of a
spiritual Ray within.  If spirit is everywhere, then we cannot be
xcluded, nor can anything or anyone else.

===========================================

>
>> represents the WHOLE.  But for the "part" to be "conscious"of
the
>> WHOLE is another thing.  A different dimension and not linear
or
>> spiritual or time altering, as I see it.


>p.s I know how holograms work so point taken.  What I want to
know
>is....why the experience of fragmentation at all?  Why take
universal
>energy and split it into parts with consciousness so that then
one must
>labour to "see" it whole again?

============================================

If the WHY could be so easily answered, we would not be here
undergoing all the troubles and strife that we do.  So let us
take ourselves as evidence of BEING here.  Is not our "persona"
(mask, the name and form we use this life) evidence that we use
material drawn from the whole of nature around us.  Science shows
we receive and emit atoms by the billions almost every minute and
in a year the physical material of our bodies is replaced 98% --
and wholly in 7 years.  So we are not the BODY (or its BRAIN )
We use them as our tools.

==========================================

>
>> How are those to be contacted and when
>> contacted, recognized ?


>Exactly!  By non-physical means.  So why the physical lesson?
And why
>the doubt when the non-physical happens?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
------------

No "doubt."  Simply who is in control ?  for myself I want to be
in control.  Ifit means to watch and participate, I still want to
be the "watcher." and at no time do I wish to be controlled or
"led" wither and yon.

=========================================

>
>> How does one
>> decide that a certain plan is either selfish and dangerous to
the
>> ultimate well-being of the Unit, or unselfish, tolerant,
>> benevolent and hence harmless to the environment as to the
>> "Chooser ?"
>By being free (of needs, fears, indoctrinations).  If one
returns to the
>purity of the new born, one simply "knows".
>Exactly what you said later, I believe.                 YES
>

>> The other day In National Geographic I came across a statement
>> made by a Nepalese fisherman, who was also a chaser after the
>> honey that wild bees store in their combs on high trees in the
>> forests.  He said:  We begin our lives by weaving a fishnet.
We
>> end our life before ever finishing it.  We are always weaving
>> this net and forever fixing it."


>Exactly....so why do we begin?  Why do we forget from whence we
came and
>even start this never ending repetitive process of getting back
"home"?
>And why are we so stupid that we get stuck in our own nets?
Hoisted on
>our own petards?  Imprisoned in webs of our own weaving?
Victims of the
>base vices when we are born with knowledge of the highest
virtues?
>
>The principles you delineate have been described as admirably by
all of
>what we now call "indigenous people".  This is my only point. It
is not
>that I refuse to accept the labels or that I disagree with the
ideas.
>Although .... the "transference" may not be as easy as
intimated.

===========================================

Both wisdom and knowledge are universal,  those we call
aborigines or indigenous, amy by race have descended from
covilizations as high as ours is now, or higher.  -- Example:  (a
Si-fi theme) one finds all the academies of our world eliminated
and all written lore destroyed.  The residual populace would be
forced back into the "hunter, gatherer state" almost immediately.
Farmers would have an advantage.  Urbanites would quickly starve
unless they made a radical change almost overnight.  Catastrophe,
like the drwoning of an entire continent, or the raisingofthe
mean level ofthe oceans by 2/400 feet in a couple of days -- most
urban centers, and agricultural lands would be flooded, and the
Eaatrth reduced to very scattered islands -- where wouldbe
leanrin preserved ?  In the high mountains.  How would the frainy
academicians cause their appratus to survivie woithout the
necessar intermediate technicians adn workers to assist ?  when
everyone is hungry and shelterless what comes first ?  Lore or
shelter and food ?

Of course this is fanciful -- but we are certainly not actually
prepared for anything so extensive.  Many of us have been through
school and college.  Do we retain or forget the sciences and
techniques we learned then,0nd have not "used' since ?  Do we
apply daily our knowledge of those things ?  Or have we abandoned
that, and in those areas, descended again to the levels of
ignorance that that education sought to eliminate ?  I ask this
because we are not using the benefits of our eduction to full
extent we ought to.

I think we create our own conditions by waht we omit using.  It
is the same for living.

As intelligent beings we came into the world because there was a
need for intstructing a new batch of men-minds.  We are those men
minds, and inside of us resides in each a Wise Man.  He can watch
what we do with our lives, warn us (Voice of Conscience, or
Intuition)
when we think of making a wrong choice (because wisdom consits in
remembering the errors and pains of past lives ) -- and often we
do not listen because we are not pleased with the prospect of
curbing our desires.  So we are really dual beings the Teacher
and the learner -- and that makes for a tug of war sometimes.

That's why we are here -- to become wiser or dumber !  We have to
do it ourselves.  We chose this position many lives back, and now
we ahve to think ourselves out of this predicament.  We have the
power to do so.  Theosophy does show a way in this regard.

=========================================

>
>> It is interesting that something in us responds to those
ideas,
>> and desires to understand more.  I wonder why ?  What is it ?
>> Where are we going ?
>We are going home.  When we recognize a path that feels right we
take it
>Still doesn't answer why we choose to leave home in the first
place!
>
>> The "Nrmanakaya" is a designation given to indicate a
>Snip
>Thank you for the explanation.  I have seen the pages to which
you refer
>and did not linger or retain because of the illustration that
seemed
>bounded by "man-made" physical concepts.  I will have to
revisit!
>
>> Example:  if we were advanced mathematical students, or
>> astro-physicists, you and I, we would deal in equations, which
to
>> the average person would be sheer abracadabra.  But if that
>> person desired to reach a level of understanding comparable to
>> ours (as theoretical mathematicians ) he could do so by
following
>> the steps we took to learn.  Mind you, I am not saying that
these
>> two are fully comparable, but, theosophy has been called the
>> mathematics of the Soul.
>I am glad that you used this example because it illustrates what
I am
>trying to say.  This is life we are talking about here.  Every
person
>comes in with the ability to understand life and to experience
love and
>peace.  It simply takes many years to speak it in the language
of here
>(and it feels like if one isn't quick enough to spit it out and
cement
>it in early on so that a great life manifests for one, it's an
uphill
>climb back)!  What is this thing about "desiring to reach a
level of
>understanding"?  Why have we taken such a simple beautiful thing
and
>made it so complex that the "ordinary" person has to "learn the
steps"?
>Why, having come from pefection, have we manifest "blood, sweat
and
>tears" and on top of that, have imprisoned ourselves in a
reality that
>tells us it may take us eons to achieve what we long for?  For
goodness
>sakes why, when as children we simply went into our
"imagination" and
>experienced universal, unconditional, blissful, fearless,
all-loving and
>eternal BEING. (that is until some other human told us or showed
us
>pain, fear, hate and submission).
========================================

Annette:  I wish it were simple to answer this.  As I see it, we
experience the buffetings of life, accidents, reverses of
fortune, successes, pleasure, children, wife or husband that is a
true companion (or the reverse), etc... The learning is always
psychological because it is the harmony of spirit and soul that
is the key to understanding.  So long as the mind-soul is
disturbed by strife and problems, its ability to lean is limited.
It has first to make time to think. Then it has to take stock of
itself.  What are its talents and its ignorances.  Why ?  How to
change and transform one into the other, etc...  How do we plan
or build anything ?  Same for our own psyche.

If we have "messed-up" we have to un-mess.  What else can I say.
Now if you take it to be that we have only one life to live then
we are short of time.  But if we are immortals and each life is a
"day" in the Soul's living, then we have time to make those
changes bit by bit.  This does not give us a license to delay,
for the time lost is irreplacable.  When  we notice something to
be fixed that is the time to fix it, not later when we have no
time left.  So economy in the right performance of duty is one of
the lessons to be learned.

I think we have to look acerfully at ourselves and our situation.
Guae both, and then decide whic is the most important thing to
do.  It may not be popular with our family or friends, but it
something we have to do for our own self improvement.  I do not
mean going to extremes, as we have responsibilities to family and
to friends which we assumed and those have to be discharged.  But
we can go at it with a changed attitude, and that will also take
them into account as doing them an injustice justs puts us back
and not forward.  This is how "individual Karma" gets balanced.

In a just Universe we get what we desrve, and if we don't like
our present, then we can set to work to change it.  It may be
easy or not, but the changer is ourselves.

===================================================
>
>Re the list of "posits".....
>No debate on content.  So, why doesn't everyone live this?
>I am hoping that reading the books I purchased yesterday will
shed some
>light for me.  "The Children of the Law of One & The Lost
Teachings of
>Atlantis", and "The Golden Bough".
>==============================================

Lots of reading there.  Where will wisdom be culled ?

======================================


>> We speak, commonly, of a "hell."  Well , don't we create  our
own
>> ? What does it ?  Is it not selfishness, ignorance, fear, and
a
>> false concept of pleasure and enjoyment.  The idea of
>> separateness creates all the problems of life.  But if we take
it
>> that we are all interconnected and that we depend all the time
on
>> others for our own living, then, does it not make a change ?
>Yes, yes and yes.
>
>> I am equally sure
>> that my answers will prove fragmentary and unsatisfactory.
But
>> we need to compare basic assumptions.  Are they totally at
>> variance or do they approach each other ?  What are the
bridges
>> to understanding that we can establish ?
>Neither fragmentary, nor unsatisfactory.  I don't feel a
variance, but
>then I wouldn't, would I :)
>The bridge to understanding between you and I (for others maybe
>different) may be this.....
>I am way behind you in reading, thinking and understanding.  I
only know
>one thing for sure....that I (and thus, I believe, everyone)
"knew" all
>of this at birth and expected life here to be as perfect as I
knew it
>could and should be.  Personally, Life so far has been one hell
of a
>shock and disappointment.  I see it as a "backwards slide".  I
don't
>take kindly to things that regress from a point of perfection.
I am not
>looking for a "recipe" to explain how it works or how to make
myself or
>others "better".  I am seeking an understanding of WHY PHYSICAL
LIFE AT
>ALL?  If perfect why create imperfect?  If universal, why
fragment?
>Is it simply for the experience?  Because, you see, if so, then
every
>experience - war; famine; lust; evil; murder etc as well as all
the
>"good" things has to exist for all time.  I CANNOT ACCEPT
that!!!!!
>
>I REMEMBER being a child.  I remember knowing that I had to take
>responsibility and well as have fun.  I remember knowing that
life was
>service as well as receipt, that others mattered as much as
myself, that
>I was an integral part of the earth and everything beyond, that
reality
>wasn't the only plane around, that all I neeeded to know and all
I
>needed to have was there for me and that it wasn't without a
price.
>What I don't remember is why I chose to come here :)
>
>Having taken up quite enough of your's and everyone else's time,
adieu
>and thanks, dear Dallas.
>Annette

====================================

Wow -- I can trace parallels here with some of the aspects of my
own lie, but I thought that I could take stock and then change as
I desired.  I needed to find a good aim.  I got help from
theosophical doctrines and philosophy.



>
>