Theos-Talk Archives (May 1998 Message tt00234)

May 10th 1998

Dear Alan:

I did not note that you wanted "personal opinions !"  I say to
myself -- of what value ?  We can speak of what we have
experienced, but the rest is hear-say.
or, "read-say."

As to the "Second Death"

I personally consider the theosophical explanations (concerning
which I sent in quotations) probably the best we have as a basis
to go from.

The concept of the death and disintegration of the "astral
corpse" seems reasonable to me.  Supporting evidence:  SD II
109-110. (top of 110).

After the animating soul (vis viva, personal self, etc...) leaves
for Devachan, there is nothing to support the cohesion of the
astral remains -- which disintegrate and pass into (as skandhas)
the surrounding ocean of "astral matter."  [ Key, Ocean ]

"Death" whether first, second or any "number" has never bothered
me.  Our physical bodies are supposed (medical science) to be
replaced at the rate of 98 % every year -- and we are quite
unaware of that.  In 7 years there is said to be complete change
of the physical.

So there is something other than the mere physical that retains
and supports the sense of Identity that is ME -- of this I am
convinced, having  been through 'sleep" many thousands of times,
and also having undergone several operations in which I was
"anaesthetized and 'put under' for appreciable periods.

Now it is quite possible that every day we wake up we are
supplied with a totally new set of memories (Science Fiction
theme), and, we may be sentient creatures under the microscope of
far more intelligent Beings than we are (another Science fiction
theme), but what does that matter ?

WE sense an independence and a purpose to our living. and to our
feeling, and to our thinking -- that is more important than any
speculations (to me) about potential "voyeurism."  In fact if we
could actively develop the idea that Nature is the "voyeur" par
excellence, and that all our most secret thoughts, feelings and
urges are indelibly recorded on the imperishable waves of the
Akasa, we might hold our personal natures under a far tighter
rein, and lead more blameless lives !  For that reason, I suspect
that the doctrine of Karma has been so emphasized.

WE have to deal with our "reality," NOW.

On observation:  Is it not very largely memory, and anticipation?
I mean: we apparently have, each of us, the faculty of decision
making in what we consider to be either a "free" or a "limited"
condition.

>From such ideas the whole structure of Theosophy can be erected,
if one chooses.  Proof?  How about a consensus of ideas, and
experiences to verify the value of any theory we either erect or
are presented with ( as in Theosophy) ?  How much can be adduced
?  Is that what you are up to ?

Theosophy states that the astral has greater tensile strength
that the physical and supplies the electro-magnetic lattice work
on which the physical molecules temporarily adhere.  The Atoms
are said to the thee "souls" of the molecules
[ "Psychic and Noetic Action - HPB ] and that is apparently set
by the personal karma of the Human entity at or before the
incarnation into a fresh baby body takes place.

In the case of devotees, chelas, proto-adepts --  on the"path" to
Adeptship, it is said that there is a gradual replacement of the
"astral body" by a more permanent "astral."  [Reference:  THE
ELIXIR OF LIFE,  "Five Years of Theosophy, p. 1 et seq. ].  Not
much is said about this but some references are made in scattered
articles by HPB and Judge.

Again the concept of a "permanent astral" seems reasonable to me,
as the developing "chela" would have to make for himself a
"vehicle" which provides for the continuity of his unitary
consciousness.  This it is posited survives the death of the
"body," the "personal astral body of this life,  and the  "Second
Death" -- and in this "permanent astral" he is said to reside.
And even. it is said, he manages to eliminate the illusions of
the "Devachanic state," retaining his consciousness, unbroken,
from incarnation to incarnation    But, in that case he may pass
from the probationary state of "chela" into that of Adept --
which also has various stages.  HPB for instance considered
herself the "chela" of the Great Masters.  But to us, we are all
her "chelas" of various degrees.

That is about as much as I know on this subject, subject to
looking up more references, which integrate the idea with the
teachings already offered as a whole in Theosophical psychology.

I seem to recall that in ISIS HPB also offers some corroboration
on this subject.  Yes, I looked them up.  Here:  ISIS I  433,
317-329,   II  564-572 -- yes, thanks for asking, I have had a
chance to check out some more old references of mine.

As to myself, direct experience in this incarnation, I have had
none.  I can only refer (mentally) to what I have studied and
read, and thought about.  Reliance on "doctrine ?"  Yes it is so.

I recall it being said that on the path to Adeptship, the "chela"
is made to actually experience and witness all these processes,
so that he is convinced of their accuracy and of the fact that he
is capable of withstanding any and all assaults on his
Individuality.

In the MAHATMA LETTERS, we are given some glimpses of this in the
case of W. Stainton Moses ( MA Oxon ), who was apparently
entering such a series of tests on the psycho-astral plane, and
as he was "mediumistic" he encountered there of the astral plane,
and personalized to himself, the remnants of his many
"kama-rupas" in the form of the "Dweller on the Threshold." (An
idea that Bulwer-Lytton had spoken of in ZANONI.)

/and that's all, and I think perhaps very unsatisfactory to you.

    Best wishes                Dal.

> Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 6:03 PM
> From: "Dr A M Bain" <guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Second death

>Dear Dallas,
>
>With all fraternal respect, I want to know what *you* think - I
can look
>up all these quotes anytime.  I asked for *subscribers'*
opinions.
>
>Alan
>
>W. Dallas TenBroeck <dalval@nwc.net> writes
>>May 9th 1998
>>
>>Dallas offers:
>>
>>On the subject of the  "Second Death."
>>
>> "Theosophical fundamentalist" (as some think I am, because I
>>like to refer back to what HPB has originally taught), I would
>>say that if you refer to THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (original
Edition)
>>you will find it described on pp. 143-5.
>>
>>And, in Mr. Judge's THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY  you will find it
>>described on pages 99...
>
><SNIP>
>
>Etc. etc. ....
>
>Alan
>-------------------
>Brought to you from
> West Cornwall, UK