Theos-Talk Archives (May 1998 Message tt00217)

Thank you Dan for your capable exposition on this letter.  However, the identity of the
letter, the date and the subject matter are all really aside from the single point that I
was trying to make.  To repeat it for the third time:  letters which are is dispute as to
authenticity should be qualified as such when used as evidence.  That has been from the
beginning and is now my sole point.

As for the letters, I have no opinion.  I read these letters many years ago, and my sole
source of background information on the Korsakoff series was from a very charming elderly
woman named Elsa Lorsey, who was living in Santa Monica at the time that I met her in the
mid sixties.  She died about twenty years ago.  Aside from my interview with her, I have
done no research on my own, and I'm afraid that I have nothing to add concerning dating,
authenticity, etc.

As I stated above, my sole comment concerned one of fairness.  For the background of the
letters, I'm sure that you have collected more information than anyone, and can enlighten
us all.
Peace
jhe




Caldwell/Graye wrote:

> K. Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> > One example of deliberate untruth, from TMR:
> >
> > ...Krishnavarma is described by HPB in letters she wrote her Aunt
> > Nadyezhda from New York in 1877.  She mentions a Krishnavarma who
> > had come to New York from Multan in the Punjab by cart (?!) and
> > was staying with the Founders.  He had praised Nadyezhda's last
> > letter to HPB and forwarded it to Swami Dayananda.  HPB proceeds
> > to tell of a trip "almost to California" that she and Olcott had
> > taken with Krishnavarma:
> >
> > In Milwaukee and Nevada alll the ladies were all the time
> > walking near our windows and the terrace where we were sitting to
> > look at Krishnavarma; he is exceptionally beautiful although of
> > the color of a light coffee.  In his long white pyjama dress and
> > a white narrow turban on his head with diamonds on his neck and
> > in bare feet he is really a curious sight among the Americans in
> > black coats and white collars...When one sees him the first time
> > he seems not more than 25, but there are moments he looks like a
> > 100 years old man.(HPB Speaks, vol. 1, pp. 198-99)
> >
> > The facts: Swami Dayananda's disciple Krishavarma never visited
> > the TS Founders in America, first meeting them in Bombay in 1879.
> > They had corresponded prior to departure with him and other Arya
> > Samaj members.  Olcott and HPB never went together to Milwaukee
> > or to Nevada.  And all the details are invented.
> >
> > What does this tell us about HPB?
>
> Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote:
>
> >Paul's example of Krishavarma also raises another point regarding
> >whether a statement is true, untrue, incorrect or a lie ("an untruth").
> >In the case, the source is a series of letters published as "HPB
> >Speaks."  This is a series of letters that suddenly appeared in Europe
> >under suspicious circumstances and were in the possession of a man who
> >was trying to sell them to the highest bidder.  Several theosophical
> >historians have already posed the opinion that these letters are filled
> >with historical inaccuracies and statements that conflict with
> >statements that HPB makes in other letters that we know to be
> >authentic.  Therefore, I believe that in the name of fairness, an
> >historian is obligated to first qualify that the authenticity of the
> >evidence is in dispute before presenting it.  If these letters are
> >indeed not authentic, then the incorrect information is not HPB's fault,
> >but the forger's, who we can safely assume created a "lie" or an
> >"untruth" if you prefer.  If the letters are authentic, then it still
> >leaves the question: what would be HPBs motivation for writing this?
>
> Daniel H. Caldwell comments:
>
> I believe there are several "confusions" in both Paul and Jerry's
> postings.
>
> First of all, HPB's letter quoted from HPB SPEAKS, vol. 1, pp. 198-99
> is misdated.  My research indicates 1878 as the probable date.  I have
> two good reasons for this opinion.  A careful reading of the
> letter should uncover those reasons.
>
> Secondly, this same letter appears to mention TWO Krishnavarmas.
> The first one is referred to in the text quoted above by Paul.  But in
> the same letter on p. 200, HPB writes:  "The *second* Krishnavarma
> Sheyamaji
> the chief apostle and pupil of our Swami will come for the next
> winter here to teach."
>
> Turning to Jerry's comments, he writes:
>
> >In the case [under discussion?], the source is a series of letters published as "HPB
> >Speaks."  This is a series of letters that suddenly appeared in Europe
> >under suspicious circumstances and were in the possession of a man who
> >was trying to sell them to the highest bidder.  Several theosophical
> >historians have already posed the opinion that these letters are filled
> >with historical inaccuracies and statements that conflict with
> >statements that HPB makes in other letters that we know to be
> >authentic.
>
> Jerry, are you confusing letters?  HPB SPEAKS is in 2 volumes and is
> a compilation of HPB's letters obtained from *various* sources.  In Jean
> Overton Fuller's BLAVATSKY AND HER TEACHERS, one finds an appendix (pp
> 235-238) devoted to "The 'Bolt' or Dondoukoff-Korsakoff Letters."
> Ms. Fuller writes:
>
> "There is one collection of [sixteen] letters. . . purporting to have
> been written by Madame Blavatsky to Prince Dondoukoff-Korsakoff,
> Governor-
> General of Odessa. . . . The letters are dated from August 1881 to June
> 1884."
>
> A Mr. Pierre Bolt was trying to sell them to Adyar and
> Point Loma Theosophists. Etc. Etc.
>
> Ms. Fuller believes THESE letters are forgeries. They were
> published by C. Jinarajadasa in HPB SPEAKS, volume II, pp. 11-159.
>
> On the other hand, Paul is quoting from a letter in Vol I of HPB
> SPEAKS.
> THIS letter is one of three HPB letters to her relatives purchased
> about 1947 at an auction of "some manuscripts...from the library
> of the late Earl of Crawford and Balcarres" in England.
>
> As far as I can tell, Ms. Fuller does *not* doubt the authenticity of
> any of these three HPB letters.  In fact, she quotes from one of them on
> p.
> 57 of her HPB biography.  And from the context, she appears to believe
> HPB wrote the letter quoted.
>
> I hope these clarifications will get Jerry and Paul back on the
> "track".  And
> I do hope that Dallas and other Blavatsky students will attempt to
> answer
> Paul's comments and conclusions concerning this "Krishnavarma" letter of
> HPB's.
>
>