From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue May 01 19:50:03 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40461 invoked from network); 2 May 2007 02:48:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2007 02:48:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2007 02:48:06 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id x.bf3.e5f75c6 (43932); Tue, 1 May 2007 22:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:47:15 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 310 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.157.35 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972; y=S-NkeqP2WDALkAohXDmtUhiDEhWohYWOY3hPO76KUJaE3CV97G4 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40513 The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for mysterious 'colony collapse' of bees By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror film. But some scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could cause massive food shortages, as the world's harvests fail. They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by mobile phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of the more bizarre mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt disappearance of the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers claimed that the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to continental Europe - was beginning to hit Britain as well. The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with bees' navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the psychophysical sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species from finding their way back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now evidence to back this up. Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants suddenly disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature workers, like so many apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but thought to die singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees that normally raid the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to go anywhere near the abandoned hives. The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half of all American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per cent of its commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East Coast. CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee-keepers, announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and north-west England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs insisted: "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the world's crops depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites, pesticides, global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have drawbacks. German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes near power lines. Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees refuse to return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr Jochen Kuhn, who carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible cause. Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US government and mobile phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties, said: "I am convinced the possibility is real." The case against handsets Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing. But proof is still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such as cancer, take decades to show up. Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an official Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more than 10 years were 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side as they held the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per capita in Finland than anywhere in the world.] Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that radiation from mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's teenagers could go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they already were.] Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that men who use mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more prosaically, doctors have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI from constant texting. Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official inquiries, warned that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a series of safety recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed May 02 12:11:25 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42913 invoked from network); 2 May 2007 19:11:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m44.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2007 19:11:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2007 19:11:17 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id 1.c4c.13e0a080 (41812); Wed, 2 May 2007 14:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 14:47:04 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 310 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972; y=Jp5EDyZSxds-4xxv9BeYHnlkavET1c8nyVnQpN0eQgvOD-ylcB8 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40514 Sounds reasonable... But I've read that there is a difference between cell= =20 phone networks and wireless (wi-fi) networks that computer phone systems us= e=20 (Vonage, Skype, etc.). Their way of modulating, multiplexing, and transmi= tting=20 analog or digital signals may be quite different.=20=20=20 If those networks use different forms of transmission or change them as new= =20 services come online, that could possibly be the cause of interference with= the=20 bees magnetic field locating system -- which could be quite complex as well= =20 as extremely sensitive. Apparently, since the bees probably locate their= =20 hives by reference to the polar magnetic fields... Either recently increase= d wi-fi=20 or cell signal interference might account for why bees in specific location= s=20 throughout the world, where different wireless and cell phone methods=20 predominate in different places, are not returning to their hives.=20=20=20 Check this web site for an article about these system differences. www.networkcomputing.com/channels/wireless/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=3D19= 7002836 In a message dated 5/2/07 10:51:47 AM, reginald@pipeline.com writes: > L; > =A0 > An interesting theory, but I heard a beekeeper/expert interviewed on=20 > WNYC-AM a few weeks back and he said, unlike=A0many other places,=A0the h= oney bees=20 > in=A0NYC were doing fine - listen here: > www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2007/03/27/segments/76094 > =A0 > So, for the Independent article=A0to be=A0true, wouldn't the cell phone= =20 > system=A0in=A0NYC have to somehow be different than those elsewhere=A0(th= o I don't see how=20 > or why it would be)? > =A0 > I have a guess that there are many contributers to the problem, but the= =20 > straw that's breaking the camel's back is GMO crops. As NYC has little or= no GMO=20 > crops, that's why the=A0honey bee population in NYC is not suffering like= the=20 > rest. > =A0 > R >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: LeonMaurer@aol.com > To: undisclosed-recipients: > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:47 PM > Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? >=20 > The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. > Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? >=20 > Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for mysterious 'col= ony=20 > collapse' of bees >=20 > By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross >=20 > It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror film. But som= e=20 > scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could cause massive = food=20 > shortages, as the world's harvests fail. >=20 > They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by mobile=20 > phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of the more = bizarre=20 > mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt disappearance = of=20 > the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers claimed t= hat=20 > the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to continental Euro= pe -=20 > was beginning to hit Britain as well. >=20 > The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with bees'=20 > navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the psychophysical= =20 > sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species from finding= their way=20 > back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now evidence to = back=20 > this up. >=20 > Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants suddenly= =20 > disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature workers, like so = many=20 > apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but thought to di= e=20 > singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees that normall= y raid=20 > the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to go anywher= e=20 > near the abandoned hives. >=20 > The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half of all=20 > American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per cent of it= s=20 > commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East Coast. >=20 > CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Italy and= =20 > Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee-keepers,= =20 > announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. >=20 > Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and north-west=20 > England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in= sisted:=20 > "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." >=20 > The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the world's crops=20 > depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that if the bees= =20 > disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". >=20 > No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites, pesticides,=20 > global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have drawbacks. >=20 > German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes near power=20 > lines. >=20 > Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees refuse to=20 > return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr Jochen Kuh= n, who=20 > carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible cause. >=20 > Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US government and mobi= le=20 > phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties, said: "I am convi= nced=20 > the possibility is real." >=20 > The case against handsets >=20 > Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing. But proof= is=20 > still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such as cancer= ,=20 > take decades to show up. >=20 > Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an official=20 > Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more than 10 year= s were=20 > 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side as they he= ld=20 > the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per capita in Fin= land=20 > than anywhere in the world.] >=20 > Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that radiation from= =20 > mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's teenagers c= ould=20 > go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they already were.= ] >=20 > Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that men who use= =20 > mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more prosaically, d= octors=20 > have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI from constan= t=20 > texting. >=20 > Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official inquiries, war= ned=20 > that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a series of saf= ety=20 > recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. >=20 >=20 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed May 02 17:27:39 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60677 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 00:27:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 00:27:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 00:27:38 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id 5.c01.14e89c0c (41812); Wed, 2 May 2007 20:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:27:07 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 310 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.144.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Bees Knees X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972; y=WAeQiO78wRAJI6fd_9olF8703KTkQ2-9PfqDLV1xPPGbEuYDnpA X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40515 Rad, Guess that's the way it has to be. One way or the other, the planet somed= ay=20 will have to be cleared of the bulk of its human population that keeps=20 increasing in greater and greater numbers to eventually reach a point -- wh= ich is=20 not too far off -- where the global ecoology can't support them and their=20 infrastructures any longer.=20=20=20 Besides, isn't it necessary to make room for the new cycle of the now=20 infiltrating sixth family race -- with a higher level of mental/moral (Bu= ddhi=20 nature) development -- so as to continue the human evolution to an even hig= her=20 level before the sixth subrace appears? (Or is it subrace and root race?)= I=20 have no trouble wrapping my mind around that aspect of theosophical teachin= gs...=20 Since the possibility of such round and race evolution it describes, is=20 perfectly consistent with the ABC model -- which sees evolution, on all its= levels,=20 and particularly the physical, much like the "morphic resonance" interactio= n=20 of hyperspace morphogenetic or "morphic" fields, as explained by Rupert=20 Sheldrake in his book "A New science of Life." Both Blavatsky and I (among many others, I suspect) thought this culling=20 could be caused by a sudden geographic pole shift, or series of volcanic di= sasters=20 due to intelligent nature reflecting back mankind's accumulated evil=20 thoughts. Or, if it occurred as the result of human actions -- we could h= ave=20 anticipated a global warming and massive floods, a worldwide pandemic, or a= globally=20 catastrophic nuclear war.=20=20=20 Who would have thought it could be the lowly bees that were destined (or=20 chosen) to do the work? They gave us our nourishment, and now, they seem = to be=20 taking away. It's ironic... But looking at the way mankind's greed and ignorance of thei= r=20 true nature have done it to themselves, it seems quite appropriate, don't y= ou=20 think?=20=20=20 Isn't the purpose of each of our lives, to learn the lessons that we need t= o=20 know to arrive at self realization and to achieve a "nucleus," then a seed,= =20 and ultimately a tree -- as a universal brotherhood of all mankind -- so as= to=20 continue its further evolution toward its ultimate godlike nature -- with e= ach=20 of us a consciously aware part of it? Isn't that the ultimate reward for = all=20 individual points of Mankind's consciousness on this globe who manage to=20 survive through the whole lifetime of the manvantara without losing their=20 conscience or inner light, and perhaps ending up isolated in the world of d= ark matter?=20 So, what's lost, if much of the current world population is starved out o= f=20 existence? Especially, since they are the one's who caused it. Doesn't= =20 perfect justice in the form of karma, as you sow, so hall you reap, rule th= e=20 world? And, aren't the lives of our descendents as important as our prese= nt=20 lives? Especially, if such descendants could be part of the incoming high= er=20 evolved mankind that we will ultimately be reborn into. Much food for tho= ught=20 here, eh... Even for the skeptics -- who can't imagine or think about any= =20 possibility of consciousness beyond their present material lifetimes. = =20 BTW, the theosophical origin of the bees and the ants, along with us -- as = a=20 necessary support of the ecology that, in turn, supports the universal=20 consciousness expressed in Man -- might make sense if we assume that HPB wa= s using a=20 metaphor, i.e., Moon as a substitute for Mother or primal matter, out of= =20 whose bosom all life arises and evolves. She also taught that the physica= l moon=20 was simply the shell of the dead Earth left over from a previous=20 manifestation or Manvantara -- that was necessary to stay and encircle arou= nd so as to=20 help maintain the orbit of the earth, and support the circadian rhythms of = all=20 life, as well as acting as the mirror to reflect the highest spiritual rays= of=20 the Sun during sleep -- to regenerate the life energy used up during waking= =20 hours. As I see it, all of that is easily explained, scientifically, by analogy an= d=20 correspondence -- from the standpoint of the ABC field's initial radiation,= =20 fractal involution and subsequent evolution -- based on the second fundamen= tal=20 principle of cyclic (harmonic) laws of electrodynamics... That act in=20 conjunction with the (first principle) ineffable zero-point origin of mothe= r SPACE with=20 its abstract motion or spinergy, and the (third principle) ultimate purpose= =20 of evolution, supported by reincarnation and karma. So, maybe the bees are really our saviors -- both in the beginning and endi= ng=20 of our lives on Earth.=20=20=20 Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and perfectly in accord with the theosophic= al=20 teachings. What do you think? Len P.S. And that doesn't let me off the hook either... Since back in the ear= ly=20 seventies, I was entrapreneurially working on starting a worldwide cellphon= e=20 empowered communication network. Was it my good karma to have failed in a= ll=20 my previous enterprises leading to that one -- which also never could be=20 consummated due to my lack of sufficient personal wealth? Although, there= were=20 plenty of other such electronic business startups that made it all the way = to=20 the present morass of bee extermination, and ultimately, a goodly portion o= f the=20 human race... If that really is the cause, and not equally greed-driven,=20 worldwide biochemical dispersion, global warming, etc. Either way... Same= =20 difference. We did it to ourselves. And, by now, I think it's much too = late in=20 the game to reverse any of it. Somehow, however, it makes me happy to hav= e=20 been a technological business failure. =20 > Well, > =C2=A0 > Blavatsky said that only bees, ants and rice made it to Earth from the=20 > Moon. I could never wrap my head around that =E2=80=9Cfrom the Moon=E2=80= =9D stuff, but I have=20 > always acknowledged another import of her statement: that bees are ESSENT= IAL=20 > to life on this planet. > =C2=A0 > The web of life is SO fragile.=C2=A0 We got along without cell-phones fo= r long=20 > enough after cars=E2=80=A6 d=E2=80=99ya think we could give them up to sa= ve life as we know=20 > it?=C2=A0 (Then again, perhaps it is that very thing, =E2=80=9Clife as we= know it=E2=80=9D that=20 > should not be saved=E2=80=A6) Either way, according to Einstein (one of y= our mentors) we > =E2=80=99ve only got a few years left=E2=80=A6 Who would=E2=80=99a thunk = it would happen this way?=C2=A0=20 > Oh, I=E2=80=99m sure a few people did.=C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > And there is a certain radical beauty about it: no =E2=80=9Cterrorist th= reat=E2=80=9D, not=20 > some =E2=80=9Cforeign dictator=E2=80=9D, no individual =E2=80=9Cevil man= =E2=80=9D, but just us =E2=80=93 every one=20 > of us phone-carrying humans is to blame =E2=80=93 innocently, and yet col= lectively.=C2=A0=20 > We=E2=80=99ve =E2=80=9Ctechnologicized=E2=80=9D ourselves into oblivion. = That=E2=80=99s been the=20 > overriding =E2=80=9Cterror vision=E2=80=9D all along hasn=E2=80=99t it, t= hat we=E2=80=99d do ourselves in?=C2=A0 Hey, we=20 > were right!=C2=A0 I mean wrong=E2=80=A6 I mean right about being wrong.= =C2=A0 Wrong-headed,=20 > that is.=C2=A0 Irresponsible, un-steward-like, rushing to permeate the pl= anet with=20 > deadly, invisible, odorless micro-waves without first testing ALL of the= =20 > possible fall-out.=C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > Why? > =C2=A0 > Greed first, then convenience. Greed on the part of mega-corps who saw h= ow=20 > marketing cell-phones to everyone and their sister would yield unpreceden= ted=20 > profit, and our notion of convenience: never having to stop to make a pho= ne=20 > call, and the seduction of the self-importance that luxury engenders.=C2= =A0 > =C2=A0 > What a price to pay for it! > =C2=A0 > Oh well.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99ll be interesting to see just how selfish huma= ns are when, in=20 > a very short amount of time we=E2=80=99re all squarely faced with letting= go of=20 > something we considered =E2=80=9CProgress=E2=80=9D but is in the end the = opposite! > =C2=A0 > Its been a fun ride (sorta-kinda), > Radames Pera > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 > -----Original Message----- > From: LeonMaurer@aol.com [mailto:LeonMaurer@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:47 PM > To: undisclosed-recipients: > Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > =C2=A0 > The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. > Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? >=20 > Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for mysterious 'col= ony=20 > collapse' of bees >=20 > By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross >=20 > It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror film. But som= e=20 > scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could cause massive = food=20 > shortages, as the world's harvests fail. >=20 > They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by mobile=20 > phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of the more = bizarre=20 > mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt disappearance = of=20 > the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers claimed t= hat=20 > the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to continental Euro= pe -=20 > was beginning to hit Britain as well. >=20 > The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with bees'=20 > navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the psychophysical= =20 > sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species from finding= their way=20 > back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now evidence to = back=20 > this up. >=20 > Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants suddenly= =20 > disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature workers, like so = many=20 > apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but thought to di= e=20 > singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees that normall= y raid=20 > the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to go anywher= e=20 > near the abandoned hives. >=20 > The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half of all=20 > American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per cent of it= s=20 > commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East Coast. >=20 > CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Italy and= =20 > Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee-keepers,= =20 > announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. >=20 > Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and north-west=20 > England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in= sisted:=20 > "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." >=20 > The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the world's crops=20 > depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that if the bees= =20 > disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". >=20 > No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites, pesticides,=20 > global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have drawbacks. >=20 > German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes near power=20 > lines. >=20 > Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees refuse to=20 > return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr Jochen Kuh= n, who=20 > carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible cause. >=20 > Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US government and mobi= le=20 > phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties, said: "I am convi= nced=20 > the possibility is real." >=20 > The case against handsets >=20 > Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing. But proof= is=20 > still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such as cancer= ,=20 > take decades to show up. >=20 > Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an official=20 > Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more than 10 year= s were=20 > 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side as they he= ld=20 > the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per capita in Fin= land=20 > than anywhere in the world.] >=20 > Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that radiation from= =20 > mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's teenagers c= ould=20 > go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they already were.= ] >=20 > Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that men who use= =20 > mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more prosaically, d= octors=20 > have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI from constan= t=20 > texting. >=20 > Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official inquiries, war= ned=20 > that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a series of saf= ety=20 > recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. >=20 >=20 > ************************************** > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. >=20 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed May 02 17:51:09 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2968 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 00:51:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 00:51:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.112) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 00:51:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 23139 invoked by uid 60001); 3 May 2007 00:51:05 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: XL0oLIYVM1lRT8fMhCEXWAzT_VxUVHgvUA0otbBQhKAKQAH6VpB6I52Bw8d7pq85Gg-- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 02 May 2007 17:51:05 PDT Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 17:51:05 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <125313.22952.qm@web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.112 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Bees Knees X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=sitdXUuAF2_RTrfs_VanbP8-pYXPNsCo5UDgZyENeB8r0gw10Q X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40516 Leon I am so glad you have brought up this issue. I get frustrated when only = receive mail about who said what, who did what 100 years ago. It seems to = me that the world is going quite mad at the moment and as theosophists we a= re still dallying with the founders. Is this truly what HPB wanted when sh= e gave us the Ancient Teachings? =20=20=20 We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the general pu= blic. I am busy on several forums which are curious about what she actuall= y had to say. =20=20=20 When I see Theos Talk all I can think is about Barbra Streisand, "Talk am= ongst yourselves" =20=20=20 I think the time for study is over, it is now time for action. Now time = to walk the walk. =20=20=20 Cass =20=20 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: Rad, Guess that's the way it has to be. One way or the other, the planet someday= =20 will have to be cleared of the bulk of its human population that keeps=20 increasing in greater and greater numbers to eventually reach a point -- wh= ich is=20 not too far off -- where the global ecoology can't support them and their=20 infrastructures any longer.=20 Besides, isn't it necessary to make room for the new cycle of the now=20 infiltrating sixth family race -- with a higher level of mental/moral (Budd= hi=20 nature) development -- so as to continue the human evolution to an even hig= her=20 level before the sixth subrace appears? (Or is it subrace and root race?) I= =20 have no trouble wrapping my mind around that aspect of theosophical teachin= gs...=20 Since the possibility of such round and race evolution it describes, is=20 perfectly consistent with the ABC model -- which sees evolution, on all its= levels,=20 and particularly the physical, much like the "morphic resonance" interactio= n=20 of hyperspace morphogenetic or "morphic" fields, as explained by Rupert=20 Sheldrake in his book "A New science of Life." Both Blavatsky and I (among many others, I suspect) thought this culling=20 could be caused by a sudden geographic pole shift, or series of volcanic di= sasters=20 due to intelligent nature reflecting back mankind's accumulated evil=20 thoughts. Or, if it occurred as the result of human actions -- we could hav= e=20 anticipated a global warming and massive floods, a worldwide pandemic, or a= globally=20 catastrophic nuclear war.=20 Who would have thought it could be the lowly bees that were destined (or=20 chosen) to do the work? They gave us our nourishment, and now, they seem to= be=20 taking away. It's ironic... But looking at the way mankind's greed and ignorance of thei= r=20 true nature have done it to themselves, it seems quite appropriate, don't y= ou=20 think?=20 Isn't the purpose of each of our lives, to learn the lessons that we need t= o=20 know to arrive at self realization and to achieve a "nucleus," then a seed,= =20 and ultimately a tree -- as a universal brotherhood of all mankind -- so as= to=20 continue its further evolution toward its ultimate godlike nature -- with e= ach=20 of us a consciously aware part of it? Isn't that the ultimate reward for al= l=20 individual points of Mankind's consciousness on this globe who manage to=20 survive through the whole lifetime of the manvantara without losing their=20 conscience or inner light, and perhaps ending up isolated in the world of d= ark matter?=20 So, what's lost, if much of the current world population is starved out of= =20 existence? Especially, since they are the one's who caused it. Doesn't=20 perfect justice in the form of karma, as you sow, so hall you reap, rule th= e=20 world? And, aren't the lives of our descendents as important as our present= =20 lives? Especially, if such descendants could be part of the incoming higher= =20 evolved mankind that we will ultimately be reborn into. Much food for thoug= ht=20 here, eh... Even for the skeptics -- who can't imagine or think about any=20 possibility of consciousness beyond their present material lifetimes.=20 BTW, the theosophical origin of the bees and the ants, along with us -- as = a=20 necessary support of the ecology that, in turn, supports the universal=20 consciousness expressed in Man -- might make sense if we assume that HPB wa= s using a=20 metaphor, i.e., Moon as a substitute for Mother or primal matter, out of=20 whose bosom all life arises and evolves. She also taught that the physical = moon=20 was simply the shell of the dead Earth left over from a previous=20 manifestation or Manvantara -- that was necessary to stay and encircle arou= nd so as to=20 help maintain the orbit of the earth, and support the circadian rhythms of = all=20 life, as well as acting as the mirror to reflect the highest spiritual rays= of=20 the Sun during sleep -- to regenerate the life energy used up during waking= =20 hours. As I see it, all of that is easily explained, scientifically, by analogy an= d=20 correspondence -- from the standpoint of the ABC field's initial radiation,= =20 fractal involution and subsequent evolution -- based on the second fundamen= tal=20 principle of cyclic (harmonic) laws of electrodynamics... That act in=20 conjunction with the (first principle) ineffable zero-point origin of mothe= r SPACE with=20 its abstract motion or spinergy, and the (third principle) ultimate purpose= =20 of evolution, supported by reincarnation and karma. So, maybe the bees are really our saviors -- both in the beginning and endi= ng=20 of our lives on Earth.=20 Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and perfectly in accord with the theosophic= al=20 teachings. What do you think? Len P.S. And that doesn't let me off the hook either... Since back in the early= =20 seventies, I was entrapreneurially working on starting a worldwide cellphon= e=20 empowered communication network. Was it my good karma to have failed in all= =20 my previous enterprises leading to that one -- which also never could be=20 consummated due to my lack of sufficient personal wealth? Although, there w= ere=20 plenty of other such electronic business startups that made it all the way = to=20 the present morass of bee extermination, and ultimately, a goodly portion o= f the=20 human race... If that really is the cause, and not equally greed-driven,=20 worldwide biochemical dispersion, global warming, etc. Either way... Same=20 difference. We did it to ourselves. And, by now, I think it's much too late= in=20 the game to reverse any of it. Somehow, however, it makes me happy to have= =20 been a technological business failure. =20 > Well, > =C2=20 > Blavatsky said that only bees, ants and rice made it to Earth from the=20 > Moon. I could never wrap my head around that =E2=80=9Cfrom the Moon=E2=80= =9D stuff, but I have=20 > always acknowledged another import of her statement: that bees are ESSENT= IAL=20 > to life on this planet. > =C2=20 > The web of life is SO fragile.=C2 We got along without cell-phones for l= ong=20 > enough after cars=E2=80=A6 d=E2=80=99ya think we could give them up to sa= ve life as we know=20 > it?=C2 (Then again, perhaps it is that very thing, =E2=80=9Clife as we k= now it=E2=80=9D that=20 > should not be saved=E2=80=A6) Either way, according to Einstein (one of y= our mentors) we > =E2=80=99ve only got a few years left=E2=80=A6 Who would=E2=80=99a thunk = it would happen this way?=C2=20=20 > Oh, I=E2=80=99m sure a few people did.=C2=20 > =C2=20 > And there is a certain radical beauty about it: no =E2=80=9Cterrorist thr= eat=E2=80=9D, not=20 > some =E2=80=9Cforeign dictator=E2=80=9D, no individual =E2=80=9Cevil man= =E2=80=9D, but just us =E2=80=93 every one=20 > of us phone-carrying humans is to blame =E2=80=93 innocently, and yet col= lectively.=C2=20=20 > We=E2=80=99ve =E2=80=9Ctechnologicized=E2=80=9D ourselves into oblivion. = That=E2=80=99s been the=20 > overriding =E2=80=9Cterror vision=E2=80=9D all along hasn=E2=80=99t it, t= hat we=E2=80=99d do ourselves in?=C2 Hey, we=20 > were right!=C2 I mean wrong=E2=80=A6 I mean right about being wrong.=C2 = Wrong-headed,=20 > that is.=C2 Irresponsible, un-steward-like, rushing to permeate the plan= et with=20 > deadly, invisible, odorless micro-waves without first testing ALL of the= =20 > possible fall-out.=C2=20 > =C2=20 > Why? > =C2=20 > Greed first, then convenience. Greed on the part of mega-corps who saw ho= w=20 > marketing cell-phones to everyone and their sister would yield unpreceden= ted=20 > profit, and our notion of convenience: never having to stop to make a pho= ne=20 > call, and the seduction of the self-importance that luxury engenders.=C2= =20 > =C2=20 > What a price to pay for it! > =C2=20 > Oh well.=C2 It=E2=80=99ll be interesting to see just how selfish humans = are when, in=20 > a very short amount of time we=E2=80=99re all squarely faced with letting= go of=20 > something we considered =E2=80=9CProgress=E2=80=9D but is in the end the = opposite! > =C2=20 > Its been a fun ride (sorta-kinda), > Radames Pera > =C2=20 > =C2=20 >=20 > =C2=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: LeonMaurer@aol.com [mailto:LeonMaurer@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:47 PM > To: undisclosed-recipients: > Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > =C2=20 > The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. > Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? >=20 > Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for mysterious 'col= ony=20 > collapse' of bees >=20 > By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross >=20 > It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror film. But som= e=20 > scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could cause massive = food=20 > shortages, as the world's harvests fail. >=20 > They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by mobile=20 > phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of the more = bizarre=20 > mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt disappearance = of=20 > the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers claimed t= hat=20 > the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to continental Euro= pe -=20 > was beginning to hit Britain as well. >=20 > The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with bees'=20 > navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the psychophysical= =20 > sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species from finding= their way=20 > back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now evidence to = back=20 > this up. >=20 > Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants suddenly= =20 > disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature workers, like so = many=20 > apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but thought to di= e=20 > singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees that normall= y raid=20 > the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to go anywher= e=20 > near the abandoned hives. >=20 > The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half of all=20 > American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per cent of it= s=20 > commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East Coast. >=20 > CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Italy and= =20 > Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee-keepers,= =20 > announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. >=20 > Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and north-west=20 > England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in= sisted:=20 > "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." >=20 > The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the world's crops=20 > depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that if the bees= =20 > disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". >=20 > No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites, pesticides,=20 > global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have drawbacks. >=20 > German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes near power=20 > lines. >=20 > Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees refuse to=20 > return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr Jochen Kuh= n, who=20 > carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible cause. >=20 > Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US government and mobi= le=20 > phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties, said: "I am convi= nced=20 > the possibility is real." >=20 > The case against handsets >=20 > Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing. But proof= is=20 > still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such as cancer= ,=20 > take decades to show up. >=20 > Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an official=20 > Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more than 10 year= s were=20 > 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side as they he= ld=20 > the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per capita in Fin= land=20 > than anywhere in the world.] >=20 > Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that radiation from= =20 > mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's teenagers c= ould=20 > go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they already were.= ] >=20 > Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that men who use= =20 > mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more prosaically, d= octors=20 > have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI from constan= t=20 > texting. >=20 > Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official inquiries, war= ned=20 > that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a series of saf= ety=20 > recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. >=20 >=20 > ************************************** > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. >=20 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed May 02 17:54:53 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83294 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 00:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 00:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.112) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 00:54:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 24466 invoked by uid 60001); 3 May 2007 00:54:52 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: au68Q9YVM1nK8ESrkqsEAKq7g_Sn852QjZEGsiTiUhurSk0Gpm1DyqX6bYi4DCmzuBUDq9_Z6lPAlBM2hMc333_SBZEkDS0OXeqz Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 02 May 2007 17:54:52 PDT Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 17:54:52 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <570698.23325.qm@web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.112 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Cosmic Cookies X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=EsumbMSMGX-khEbn5jMimBR2b7odkH82oOPW9Szyr66BzHkPfQ X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40517 There are others out there doing the work we should be Cookie Break... Cosmic Cookie In the Physical Plane of Illusion the Human Body does not actaully exist... except as a Teaching Device for the Human Mind... Soul or Consciousness. The Infinite Self is the Creator of this Vehicle and it travels all over the Universe with it visiting and celebrating its Diversities. The Illusive Physical Body however is real to the Ego Mind or Personality. The Ego Mind as a temporary Projection of the Soul is capable of connecting with its Higher Self by means of Meditation.. . or Intuitive Awareness. A DREAM IS A TEACHING DEVICE... WHERE IS IT? Cosmic Cookies have been distributed since 1996/12/01 You may freely share my work with any List or Party. http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/CosmicCook ies http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/TriLite --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au Wed May 02 20:16:43 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87535 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 03:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 03:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.214) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 03:16:42 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n17.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 03:16:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 03:16:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 03:16:42 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 03:16:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <125313.22952.qm@web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.214 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.166.243.16 From: "nhcareyta" Subject: Theos-World Re: Bees Knees X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=193856796; y=eKa68_cqIntR6Kj0PioZsuxhxBcNYdxgkqu7STNBw5PidbnK X-Yahoo-Profile: nhcareyta X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40518 Dear Cass If I may add a comment to your posting to Leon. Your write: >We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 >general public. This is such an important statement and I (for what it's worth)=20 commend you for your sentiment. Indeed, some of us are doing that as=20 much and as best as we can. In so doing we must also challenge those who purport to be, but in=20 some part are clearly not, representing her works. When those misrepresentations and deceptions of "100 years ago" are=20 still to this day put forward as representing her work, do we not=20 need to clarify this for sake of theosophical inquirers and students? Regards Nigel --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > Leon > I am so glad you have brought up this issue. I get frustrated=20 when only receive mail about who said what, who did what 100 years=20 ago. It seems to me that the world is going quite mad at the moment=20 and as theosophists we are still dallying with the founders. Is this=20 truly what HPB wanted when she gave us the Ancient Teachings? >=20=20=20=20 > We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 general public. I am busy on several forums which are curious about=20 what she actually had to say. >=20=20=20=20 > When I see Theos Talk all I can think is about Barbra=20 Streisand, "Talk amongst yourselves" >=20=20=20=20 > I think the time for study is over, it is now time for action.=20=20 Now time to walk the walk. >=20=20=20=20 > Cass >=20=20=20 >=20 > leonmaurer@... wrote: > Rad, >=20 > Guess that's the way it has to be. One way or the other, the planet=20 someday=20 > will have to be cleared of the bulk of its human population that=20 keeps=20 > increasing in greater and greater numbers to eventually reach a=20 point -- which is=20 > not too far off -- where the global ecoology can't support them and=20 their=20 > infrastructures any longer.=20 >=20 > Besides, isn't it necessary to make room for the new cycle of the=20 now=20 > infiltrating sixth family race -- with a higher level of=20 mental/moral (Buddhi=20 > nature) development -- so as to continue the human evolution to an=20 even higher=20 > level before the sixth subrace appears? (Or is it subrace and root=20 race?) I=20 > have no trouble wrapping my mind around that aspect of theosophical=20 teachings...=20 > Since the possibility of such round and race evolution it=20 describes, is=20 > perfectly consistent with the ABC model -- which sees evolution, on=20 all its levels,=20 > and particularly the physical, much like the "morphic resonance"=20 interaction=20 > of hyperspace morphogenetic or "morphic" fields, as explained by=20 Rupert=20 > Sheldrake in his book "A New science of Life." >=20 > Both Blavatsky and I (among many others, I suspect) thought this=20 culling=20 > could be caused by a sudden geographic pole shift, or series of=20 volcanic disasters=20 > due to intelligent nature reflecting back mankind's accumulated=20 evil=20 > thoughts. Or, if it occurred as the result of human actions -- we=20 could have=20 > anticipated a global warming and massive floods, a worldwide=20 pandemic, or a globally=20 > catastrophic nuclear war.=20 >=20 > Who would have thought it could be the lowly bees that were=20 destined (or=20 > chosen) to do the work? They gave us our nourishment, and now, they=20 seem to be=20 > taking away. >=20 > It's ironic... But looking at the way mankind's greed and ignorance=20 of their=20 > true nature have done it to themselves, it seems quite appropriate,=20 don't you=20 > think?=20 >=20 > Isn't the purpose of each of our lives, to learn the lessons that=20 we need to=20 > know to arrive at self realization and to achieve a "nucleus," then=20 a seed,=20 > and ultimately a tree -- as a universal brotherhood of all mankind - - so as to=20 > continue its further evolution toward its ultimate godlike nature -- with each=20 > of us a consciously aware part of it? Isn't that the ultimate=20 reward for all=20 > individual points of Mankind's consciousness on this globe who=20 manage to=20 > survive through the whole lifetime of the manvantara without losing=20 their=20 > conscience or inner light, and perhaps ending up isolated in the=20 world of dark matter?=20 > So, what's lost, if much of the current world population is starved=20 out of=20 > existence? Especially, since they are the one's who caused it.=20 Doesn't=20 > perfect justice in the form of karma, as you sow, so hall you reap,=20 rule the=20 > world? And, aren't the lives of our descendents as important as our=20 present=20 > lives? Especially, if such descendants could be part of the=20 incoming higher=20 > evolved mankind that we will ultimately be reborn into. Much food=20 for thought=20 > here, eh... Even for the skeptics -- who can't imagine or think=20 about any=20 > possibility of consciousness beyond their present material=20 lifetimes.=20 >=20 > BTW, the theosophical origin of the bees and the ants, along with=20 us -- as a=20 > necessary support of the ecology that, in turn, supports the=20 universal=20 > consciousness expressed in Man -- might make sense if we assume=20 that HPB was using a=20 > metaphor, i.e., Moon as a substitute for Mother or primal matter,=20 out of=20 > whose bosom all life arises and evolves. She also taught that the=20 physical moon=20 > was simply the shell of the dead Earth left over from a previous=20 > manifestation or Manvantara -- that was necessary to stay and=20 encircle around so as to=20 > help maintain the orbit of the earth, and support the circadian=20 rhythms of all=20 > life, as well as acting as the mirror to reflect the highest=20 spiritual rays of=20 > the Sun during sleep -- to regenerate the life energy used up=20 during waking=20 > hours. >=20 > As I see it, all of that is easily explained, scientifically, by=20 analogy and=20 > correspondence -- from the standpoint of the ABC field's initial=20 radiation,=20 > fractal involution and subsequent evolution -- based on the second=20 fundamental=20 > principle of cyclic (harmonic) laws of electrodynamics... That act=20 in=20 > conjunction with the (first principle) ineffable zero-point origin=20 of mother SPACE with=20 > its abstract motion or spinergy, and the (third principle) ultimate=20 purpose=20 > of evolution, supported by reincarnation and karma. >=20 > So, maybe the bees are really our saviors -- both in the beginning=20 and ending=20 > of our lives on Earth.=20 >=20 > Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and perfectly in accord with the=20 theosophical=20 > teachings. >=20 > What do you think? >=20 > Len > P.S. And that doesn't let me off the hook either... Since back in=20 the early=20 > seventies, I was entrapreneurially working on starting a worldwide=20 cellphone=20 > empowered communication network. Was it my good karma to have=20 failed in all=20 > my previous enterprises leading to that one -- which also never=20 could be=20 > consummated due to my lack of sufficient personal wealth? Although,=20 there were=20 > plenty of other such electronic business startups that made it all=20 the way to=20 > the present morass of bee extermination, and ultimately, a goodly=20 portion of the=20 > human race... If that really is the cause, and not equally greed- driven,=20 > worldwide biochemical dispersion, global warming, etc. Either=20 way... Same=20 > difference. We did it to ourselves. And, by now, I think it's much=20 too late in=20 > the game to reverse any of it. Somehow, however, it makes me happy=20 to have=20 > been a technological business failure. =20 > In a message dated 5/2/07 10:02:51 AM, rpera@... writes: >=20 > >=20 > > Well, > > =C2=20 > > Blavatsky said that only bees, ants and rice made it to Earth=20 from the=20 > > Moon. I could never wrap my head around that =E2=80=9Cfrom the Moon=E2= =80=9D=20 stuff, but I have=20 > > always acknowledged another import of her statement: that bees=20 are ESSENTIAL=20 > > to life on this planet. > > =C2=20 > > The web of life is SO fragile.=C2 We got along without cell-phones=20 for long=20 > > enough after cars=E2=80=A6 d=E2=80=99ya think we could give them up to = save=20 life as we know=20 > > it?=C2 (Then again, perhaps it is that very thing, =E2=80=9Clife as we= =20 know it=E2=80=9D that=20 > > should not be saved=E2=80=A6) Either way, according to Einstein (one of= =20 your mentors) we > > =E2=80=99ve only got a few years left=E2=80=A6 Who would=E2=80=99a thun= k it would=20 happen this way?=C2=20=20 > > Oh, I=E2=80=99m sure a few people did.=C2=20 > > =C2=20 > > And there is a certain radical beauty about it: no =E2=80=9Cterrorist=20 threat=E2=80=9D, not=20 > > some =E2=80=9Cforeign dictator=E2=80=9D, no individual =E2=80=9Cevil ma= n=E2=80=9D, but=20 just us =E2=80" every one=20 > > of us phone-carrying humans is to blame =E2=80" innocently, and yet=20 collectively.=C2=20=20 > > We=E2=80=99ve =E2=80=9Ctechnologicized=E2=80=9D ourselves into oblivion= . That=E2=80=99s=20 been the=20 > > overriding =E2=80=9Cterror vision=E2=80=9D all along hasn=E2=80=99t it,= that we=E2=80=99d=20 do ourselves in?=C2 Hey, we=20 > > were right!=C2 I mean wrong=E2=80=A6 I mean right about being wrong.= =C2=20=20 Wrong-headed,=20 > > that is.=C2 Irresponsible, un-steward-like, rushing to permeate=20 the planet with=20 > > deadly, invisible, odorless micro-waves without first testing ALL=20 of the=20 > > possible fall-out.=C2=20 > > =C2=20 > > Why? > > =C2=20 > > Greed first, then convenience. Greed on the part of mega-corps=20 who saw how=20 > > marketing cell-phones to everyone and their sister would yield=20 unprecedented=20 > > profit, and our notion of convenience: never having to stop to=20 make a phone=20 > > call, and the seduction of the self-importance that luxury=20 engenders.=C2=20 > > =C2=20 > > What a price to pay for it! > > =C2=20 > > Oh well.=C2 It=E2=80=99ll be interesting to see just how selfish human= s=20 are when, in=20 > > a very short amount of time we=E2=80=99re all squarely faced with=20 letting go of=20 > > something we considered =E2=80=9CProgress=E2=80=9D but is in the end th= e=20 opposite! > > =C2=20 > > Its been a fun ride (sorta-kinda), > > Radames Pera > > =C2=20 > > =C2=20 > >=20 > > =C2=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LeonMaurer@... [mailto:LeonMaurer@...] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:47 PM > > To: undisclosed-recipients: > > Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > > =C2=20 > > The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. > > Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > >=20 > > Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for=20 mysterious 'colony=20 > > collapse' of bees > >=20 > > By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross > >=20 > > It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror film.=20 But some=20 > > scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could cause=20 massive food=20 > > shortages, as the world's harvests fail. > >=20 > > They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by=20 mobile=20 > > phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of=20 the more bizarre=20 > > mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt=20 disappearance of=20 > > the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers=20 claimed that=20 > > the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to=20 continental Europe -=20 > > was beginning to hit Britain as well. > >=20 > > The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with=20 bees'=20 > > navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the=20 psychophysical=20 > > sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species from=20 finding their way=20 > > back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now=20 evidence to back=20 > > this up. > >=20 > > Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants=20 suddenly=20 > > disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature workers,=20 like so many=20 > > apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but=20 thought to die=20 > > singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees that=20 normally raid=20 > > the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to go=20 anywhere=20 > > near the abandoned hives. > >=20 > > The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half of=20 all=20 > > American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per=20 cent of its=20 > > commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East=20 Coast. > >=20 > > CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal,=20 Italy and=20 > > Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee- keepers,=20 > > announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. > >=20 > > Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and north- west=20 > > England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural=20 Affairs insisted:=20 > > "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." > >=20 > > The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the world's=20 crops=20 > > depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that if=20 the bees=20 > > disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". > >=20 > > No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites,=20 pesticides,=20 > > global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have=20 drawbacks. > >=20 > > German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes near=20 power=20 > > lines. > >=20 > > Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees=20 refuse to=20 > > return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr=20 Jochen Kuhn, who=20 > > carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible=20 cause. > >=20 > > Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US government=20 and mobile=20 > > phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties, said: "I=20 am convinced=20 > > the possibility is real." > >=20 > > The case against handsets > >=20 > > Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing.=20 But proof is=20 > > still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such=20 as cancer,=20 > > take decades to show up. > >=20 > > Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an=20 official=20 > > Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more than=20 10 years were=20 > > 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side as=20 they held=20 > > the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per=20 capita in Finland=20 > > than anywhere in the world.] > >=20 > > Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that=20 radiation from=20 > > mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's=20 teenagers could=20 > > go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they=20 already were.] > >=20 > > Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that men=20 who use=20 > > mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more=20 prosaically, doctors=20 > > have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI from=20 constant=20 > > texting. > >=20 > > Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official=20 inquiries, warned=20 > > that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a=20 series of safety=20 > > recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. > >=20 > >=20 > > ************************************** > > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > >=20 >=20 > ************************************** > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Wed May 02 20:58:47 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88688 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 03:58:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 03:58:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 03:58:46 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id r.d22.4b947d5 (48337) for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 23:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail-md05 (webmail-md05.webmail.aol.com [64.12.170.143]) by ciaaol-d02.mail.aol.com (v115.11) with ESMTP id MAILCIAAOLD025-bcd146395de02da; Wed, 02 May 2007 23:58:24 -0400 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 23:58:24 -0400 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 25698 Received: from 24.1.227.155 by webmail-md05.sysops.aol.com (64.12.170.143) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Wed, 02 May 2007 23:58:24 -0400 Message-Id: <8C95B4E6EEDE001-1258-8BD8@webmail-md05.sysops.aol.com> X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.143 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com Subject: Secrets of the Mayan Calendar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958; y=JIFq29x848kklgN2SoHllUz_ykaFMOmztDOjCl0QPzqxUibYWJQ X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40519 Hello everyone. I just ran across this: Secrets of the Mayan Calendar Unveiled, Parts I, II, III. This is presented by Ian Xel Longold in 3 videos on google, each about 2hrs in length. Thisis very comprehensive and most interesting!!!. You can access this by googling the following: google video, then in the advanced search box, type in the title, you will find the videos that way. I highly recommend this very informative viewing for all people interested in the Mayan calendar, and the year 2012. Marie ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed May 02 22:06:42 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16307 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 05:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 05:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.104) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 05:06:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 69259 invoked by uid 60001); 3 May 2007 05:06:40 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: m46d5G0VM1nY9XsEpmlETprVsXbe3Hj.zUqwfs20g.M0GgtwcmtTnOZUx6TwHA6yetwxYQxCN0HVolxqxOsWzdfYqCIFZvV922pu.gKRJO5lSm7jtXE- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 02 May 2007 22:06:40 PDT Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:06:40 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <555747.68060.qm@web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.104 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Bees Knees X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=xoN1gUW1syIIvK8rh4Z-v-M9ote0s2Ja6igzsddOGUHgf9yuzA X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40520 No I don't thinks so Nigel, it keeps us grounded into intellectual debate. = I would think that newcomers to Theosophy would rightly say to themselves,= "they cannot even agree on the teachings". As far as I am concerned HPB w= as the messenger chosen, not Leadbeater, not Besant, not Bailey, so it is h= er teachings that I am loyal to. Without HPB there would not have been a t= heosophical society. If others choose to promote CWL et al, then I guess i= t will come down to their motives. As I said, I think the time has passed = when we can sit around and muse about right or wrong teachings. =20=20=20 People in the world are truly living in fear of the unexpected, especiall= y with the doom and gloom predicted by the new agers and the 2012 apocolyps= tics. They need a sound, cohesive, reliable philosophy that will assist th= em in whatever lies ahead for all of humanity. Even if we can only change = the fear-thinking of a few it will benefit all.=20=20 =20=20=20 HPB herself predicted major changes in the world. We can smugly sit back= and take comfort in knowing that if we do not survive the next 10 years we= will have more opportunities. What about those poor souls who are in spiri= tual limbo? =20=20=20 That's my views, I am not trying to push HPB down anyone's throats, but p= rovide an alternative viewpoint in relation to death and dying. =20=20=20 Cheers Cass nhcareyta wrote: Dear Cass If I may add a comment to your posting to Leon. Your write: >We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 >general public. This is such an important statement and I (for what it's worth)=20 commend you for your sentiment. Indeed, some of us are doing that as=20 much and as best as we can. In so doing we must also challenge those who purport to be, but in=20 some part are clearly not, representing her works. When those misrepresentations and deceptions of "100 years ago" are=20 still to this day put forward as representing her work, do we not=20 need to clarify this for sake of theosophical inquirers and students? Regards Nigel --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > Leon > I am so glad you have brought up this issue. I get frustrated=20 when only receive mail about who said what, who did what 100 years=20 ago. It seems to me that the world is going quite mad at the moment=20 and as theosophists we are still dallying with the founders. Is this=20 truly what HPB wanted when she gave us the Ancient Teachings? >=20 > We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 general public. I am busy on several forums which are curious about=20 what she actually had to say. >=20 > When I see Theos Talk all I can think is about Barbra=20 Streisand, "Talk amongst yourselves" >=20 > I think the time for study is over, it is now time for action.=20 Now time to walk the walk. >=20 > Cass >=20 >=20 > leonmaurer@... wrote: > Rad, >=20 > Guess that's the way it has to be. One way or the other, the planet=20 someday=20 > will have to be cleared of the bulk of its human population that=20 keeps=20 > increasing in greater and greater numbers to eventually reach a=20 point -- which is=20 > not too far off -- where the global ecoology can't support them and=20 their=20 > infrastructures any longer.=20 >=20 > Besides, isn't it necessary to make room for the new cycle of the=20 now=20 > infiltrating sixth family race -- with a higher level of=20 mental/moral (Buddhi=20 > nature) development -- so as to continue the human evolution to an=20 even higher=20 > level before the sixth subrace appears? (Or is it subrace and root=20 race?) I=20 > have no trouble wrapping my mind around that aspect of theosophical=20 teachings...=20 > Since the possibility of such round and race evolution it=20 describes, is=20 > perfectly consistent with the ABC model -- which sees evolution, on=20 all its levels,=20 > and particularly the physical, much like the "morphic resonance"=20 interaction=20 > of hyperspace morphogenetic or "morphic" fields, as explained by=20 Rupert=20 > Sheldrake in his book "A New science of Life." >=20 > Both Blavatsky and I (among many others, I suspect) thought this=20 culling=20 > could be caused by a sudden geographic pole shift, or series of=20 volcanic disasters=20 > due to intelligent nature reflecting back mankind's accumulated=20 evil=20 > thoughts. Or, if it occurred as the result of human actions -- we=20 could have=20 > anticipated a global warming and massive floods, a worldwide=20 pandemic, or a globally=20 > catastrophic nuclear war.=20 >=20 > Who would have thought it could be the lowly bees that were=20 destined (or=20 > chosen) to do the work? They gave us our nourishment, and now, they=20 seem to be=20 > taking away. >=20 > It's ironic... But looking at the way mankind's greed and ignorance=20 of their=20 > true nature have done it to themselves, it seems quite appropriate,=20 don't you=20 > think?=20 >=20 > Isn't the purpose of each of our lives, to learn the lessons that=20 we need to=20 > know to arrive at self realization and to achieve a "nucleus," then=20 a seed,=20 > and ultimately a tree -- as a universal brotherhood of all mankind - - so as to=20 > continue its further evolution toward its ultimate godlike nature -- with each=20 > of us a consciously aware part of it? Isn't that the ultimate=20 reward for all=20 > individual points of Mankind's consciousness on this globe who=20 manage to=20 > survive through the whole lifetime of the manvantara without losing=20 their=20 > conscience or inner light, and perhaps ending up isolated in the=20 world of dark matter?=20 > So, what's lost, if much of the current world population is starved=20 out of=20 > existence? Especially, since they are the one's who caused it.=20 Doesn't=20 > perfect justice in the form of karma, as you sow, so hall you reap,=20 rule the=20 > world? And, aren't the lives of our descendents as important as our=20 present=20 > lives? Especially, if such descendants could be part of the=20 incoming higher=20 > evolved mankind that we will ultimately be reborn into. Much food=20 for thought=20 > here, eh... Even for the skeptics -- who can't imagine or think=20 about any=20 > possibility of consciousness beyond their present material=20 lifetimes.=20 >=20 > BTW, the theosophical origin of the bees and the ants, along with=20 us -- as a=20 > necessary support of the ecology that, in turn, supports the=20 universal=20 > consciousness expressed in Man -- might make sense if we assume=20 that HPB was using a=20 > metaphor, i.e., Moon as a substitute for Mother or primal matter,=20 out of=20 > whose bosom all life arises and evolves. She also taught that the=20 physical moon=20 > was simply the shell of the dead Earth left over from a previous=20 > manifestation or Manvantara -- that was necessary to stay and=20 encircle around so as to=20 > help maintain the orbit of the earth, and support the circadian=20 rhythms of all=20 > life, as well as acting as the mirror to reflect the highest=20 spiritual rays of=20 > the Sun during sleep -- to regenerate the life energy used up=20 during waking=20 > hours. >=20 > As I see it, all of that is easily explained, scientifically, by=20 analogy and=20 > correspondence -- from the standpoint of the ABC field's initial=20 radiation,=20 > fractal involution and subsequent evolution -- based on the second=20 fundamental=20 > principle of cyclic (harmonic) laws of electrodynamics... That act=20 in=20 > conjunction with the (first principle) ineffable zero-point origin=20 of mother SPACE with=20 > its abstract motion or spinergy, and the (third principle) ultimate=20 purpose=20 > of evolution, supported by reincarnation and karma. >=20 > So, maybe the bees are really our saviors -- both in the beginning=20 and ending=20 > of our lives on Earth.=20 >=20 > Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and perfectly in accord with the=20 theosophical=20 > teachings. >=20 > What do you think? >=20 > Len > P.S. And that doesn't let me off the hook either... Since back in=20 the early=20 > seventies, I was entrapreneurially working on starting a worldwide=20 cellphone=20 > empowered communication network. Was it my good karma to have=20 failed in all=20 > my previous enterprises leading to that one -- which also never=20 could be=20 > consummated due to my lack of sufficient personal wealth? Although,=20 there were=20 > plenty of other such electronic business startups that made it all=20 the way to=20 > the present morass of bee extermination, and ultimately, a goodly=20 portion of the=20 > human race... If that really is the cause, and not equally greed- driven,=20 > worldwide biochemical dispersion, global warming, etc. Either=20 way... Same=20 > difference. We did it to ourselves. And, by now, I think it's much=20 too late in=20 > the game to reverse any of it. Somehow, however, it makes me happy=20 to have=20 > been a technological business failure. =20 > In a message dated 5/2/07 10:02:51 AM, rpera@... writes: >=20 > >=20 > > Well, > > =C2=20 > > Blavatsky said that only bees, ants and rice made it to Earth=20 from the=20 > > Moon. I could never wrap my head around that =E2=80=9Cfrom the Moon=E2= =80=9D=20 stuff, but I have=20 > > always acknowledged another import of her statement: that bees=20 are ESSENTIAL=20 > > to life on this planet. > > =C2=20 > > The web of life is SO fragile.=C2 We got along without cell-phones=20 for long=20 > > enough after cars=E2=80=A6 d=E2=80=99ya think we could give them up to = save=20 life as we know=20 > > it?=C2 (Then again, perhaps it is that very thing, =E2=80=9Clife as we= =20 know it=E2=80=9D that=20 > > should not be saved=E2=80=A6) Either way, according to Einstein (one of= =20 your mentors) we > > =E2=80=99ve only got a few years left=E2=80=A6 Who would=E2=80=99a thun= k it would=20 happen this way?=C2=20 > > Oh, I=E2=80=99m sure a few people did.=C2=20 > > =C2=20 > > And there is a certain radical beauty about it: no =E2=80=9Cterrorist=20 threat=E2=80=9D, not=20 > > some =E2=80=9Cforeign dictator=E2=80=9D, no individual =E2=80=9Cevil ma= n=E2=80=9D, but=20 just us =E2=80" every one=20 > > of us phone-carrying humans is to blame =E2=80" innocently, and yet=20 collectively.=C2=20 > > We=E2=80=99ve =E2=80=9Ctechnologicized=E2=80=9D ourselves into oblivion= . That=E2=80=99s=20 been the=20 > > overriding =E2=80=9Cterror vision=E2=80=9D all along hasn=E2=80=99t it,= that we=E2=80=99d=20 do ourselves in?=C2 Hey, we=20 > > were right!=C2 I mean wrong=E2=80=A6 I mean right about being wrong.=C2= =20 Wrong-headed,=20 > > that is.=C2 Irresponsible, un-steward-like, rushing to permeate=20 the planet with=20 > > deadly, invisible, odorless micro-waves without first testing ALL=20 of the=20 > > possible fall-out.=C2=20 > > =C2=20 > > Why? > > =C2=20 > > Greed first, then convenience. Greed on the part of mega-corps=20 who saw how=20 > > marketing cell-phones to everyone and their sister would yield=20 unprecedented=20 > > profit, and our notion of convenience: never having to stop to=20 make a phone=20 > > call, and the seduction of the self-importance that luxury=20 engenders.=C2=20 > > =C2=20 > > What a price to pay for it! > > =C2=20 > > Oh well.=C2 It=E2=80=99ll be interesting to see just how selfish humans= =20 are when, in=20 > > a very short amount of time we=E2=80=99re all squarely faced with=20 letting go of=20 > > something we considered =E2=80=9CProgress=E2=80=9D but is in the end th= e=20 opposite! > > =C2=20 > > Its been a fun ride (sorta-kinda), > > Radames Pera > > =C2=20 > > =C2=20 > >=20 > > =C2=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LeonMaurer@... [mailto:LeonMaurer@...] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:47 PM > > To: undisclosed-recipients: > > Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > > =C2=20 > > The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. > > Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > >=20 > > Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for=20 mysterious 'colony=20 > > collapse' of bees > >=20 > > By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross > >=20 > > It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror film.=20 But some=20 > > scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could cause=20 massive food=20 > > shortages, as the world's harvests fail. > >=20 > > They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by=20 mobile=20 > > phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of=20 the more bizarre=20 > > mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt=20 disappearance of=20 > > the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers=20 claimed that=20 > > the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to=20 continental Europe -=20 > > was beginning to hit Britain as well. > >=20 > > The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with=20 bees'=20 > > navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the=20 psychophysical=20 > > sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species from=20 finding their way=20 > > back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now=20 evidence to back=20 > > this up. > >=20 > > Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants=20 suddenly=20 > > disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature workers,=20 like so many=20 > > apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but=20 thought to die=20 > > singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees that=20 normally raid=20 > > the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to go=20 anywhere=20 > > near the abandoned hives. > >=20 > > The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half of=20 all=20 > > American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per=20 cent of its=20 > > commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East=20 Coast. > >=20 > > CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal,=20 Italy and=20 > > Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee- keepers,=20 > > announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. > >=20 > > Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and north- west=20 > > England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural=20 Affairs insisted:=20 > > "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." > >=20 > > The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the world's=20 crops=20 > > depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that if=20 the bees=20 > > disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". > >=20 > > No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites,=20 pesticides,=20 > > global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have=20 drawbacks. > >=20 > > German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes near=20 power=20 > > lines. > >=20 > > Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees=20 refuse to=20 > > return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr=20 Jochen Kuhn, who=20 > > carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible=20 cause. > >=20 > > Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US government=20 and mobile=20 > > phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties, said: "I=20 am convinced=20 > > the possibility is real." > >=20 > > The case against handsets > >=20 > > Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing.=20 But proof is=20 > > still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such=20 as cancer,=20 > > take decades to show up. > >=20 > > Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an=20 official=20 > > Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more than=20 10 years were=20 > > 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side as=20 they held=20 > > the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per=20 capita in Finland=20 > > than anywhere in the world.] > >=20 > > Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that=20 radiation from=20 > > mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's=20 teenagers could=20 > > go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they=20 already were.] > >=20 > > Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that men=20 who use=20 > > mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more=20 prosaically, doctors=20 > > have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI from=20 constant=20 > > texting. > >=20 > > Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official=20 inquiries, warned=20 > > that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a=20 series of safety=20 > > recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. > >=20 > >=20 > > ************************************** > > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > >=20 >=20 > ************************************** > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed May 02 22:08:08 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81103 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 05:08:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 05:08:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.111) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 05:08:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 95805 invoked by uid 60001); 3 May 2007 05:08:07 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: p__UM0gVM1nKF188ETalETx0Ry9VXdfk.WeG0YhRbrmcG1EmlkZfY_N4bVpqK5N5Ug-- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 02 May 2007 22:08:06 PDT Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 22:08:06 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <8C95B4E6EEDE001-1258-8BD8@webmail-md05.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <51590.95799.qm@web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.111 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Secrets of the Mayan Calendar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=0tL3QyIR1kwqEgQBvKX953PBAE8ORxOLUK6U-HTFxW0gV_CHQQ X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40521 Thanks Marie I will get to it this afternoon. Cass MarieMAJ41@aol.com wrote: Hello everyone. I just ran across this: Secrets of the Mayan Calendar Unveiled, Parts I, II, III. This is presented by Ian Xel Longold in 3 videos on google, each about 2hrs in length. Thisis very comprehensive and most interesting!!!. You can access this by googling the following: google video, then in the advanced search box, type in the title, you will find the videos that way. I highly recommend this very informative viewing for all people interested in the Mayan calendar, and the year 2012. Marie __________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au Thu May 03 01:50:42 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5251 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 08:49:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 08:49:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.133) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 08:49:57 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n20.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 08:48:48 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.83] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 08:48:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 08:48:48 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 08:48:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <555747.68060.qm@web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.133 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.166.243.16 From: "nhcareyta" Subject: Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=193856796; y=s8Sj9W6RUnGZwlMzrnfy4ev5WI9cE8_ZCG9LQ92lIqUzpu-D X-Yahoo-Profile: nhcareyta X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40522 Dear Cass Thank you for your response and interesting perspective. You write, "I would think that newcomers to Theosophy would rightly=20 say to themselves, "they cannot even agree on the teachings". Yes, you raise an eternal dilemma.=20 In pointing out the differing versions of theosophy, those of us who=20 think that Madame Blavatsky and her teachers shared the most=20 authentic, albeit necessarily imperfect version of Theosophy, create=20 not only the possibility of what you suggest for student/inquirers=20 but also run the risk of protesting too much and thereby creating an=20 allure for pseudo or neo-theosophy.=20 Moreover, we run the additional risks of generating antagonistic=20 energies which in themselves may potentially be counter-productive as=20 well as appearing as dogmatists ourselves. My decision to challenge obvious contradictions and deceptions in the=20 various literatures arises after observing the effects of pseudo/neo- theosophy on the mindsets of many people. Where Madame Blavatsky and=20 the Mahatmas' Theosophy encourages and facilitates an open, non- dogmatic and ever-inquiring mind to me, certain other later versions=20 do not. They are mostly authoritarian in style opening the way for=20 blind-minded obedience to their holy writ. This is not for me=20 the "new continent of thought" promoted by the Mahatmas and is not=20 that to which they were referring when Madame Blavatsky re-introduced=20 the term Theosophy to the modern age. It seems to me that so long as people blindly follow and accept=20 others' pronouncements, INCLUDING those of the Mahatmas and Madame=20 Blavatsky, we as a humanity will never fully think for ourselves and=20 will continue to think, speak and act largely from our often fear- based, habit, conditioned, reactive mindset produced and inherited=20 from skandhas, parents, school, peers, society and culture. Perhaps only when we truly liberate our minds will we see beyond=20 these distinctions and limitations and will indeed begin to develop a=20 nucleus of the Brotherhood (Unity) of humanity. Until then, many of=20 us will continue to follow like sheep whichever person, group or=20 organisation happens to tell us either that which we would like to=20 hear or how we would like things to be. In the meantime, please don't feel too "frustrated". We are each=20 doing what we think to be the right thing. Perhaps there is a place=20 for all honest and truthful avenues of approach? Thanks again Cass. Kind regards Nigel --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > No I don't thinks so Nigel, it keeps us grounded into intellectual=20 debate. I would think that newcomers to Theosophy would rightly say=20 to themselves, "they cannot even agree on the teachings". As far as=20 I am concerned HPB was the messenger chosen, not Leadbeater, not=20 Besant, not Bailey, so it is her teachings that I am loyal to.=20=20 Without HPB there would not have been a theosophical society. If=20 others choose to promote CWL et al, then I guess it will come down to=20 their motives. As I said, I think the time has passed when we can=20 sit around and muse about right or wrong teachings. >=20=20=20=20 > People in the world are truly living in fear of the unexpected,=20 especially with the doom and gloom predicted by the new agers and the=20 2012 apocolypstics. They need a sound, cohesive, reliable philosophy=20 that will assist them in whatever lies ahead for all of humanity.=20=20 Even if we can only change the fear-thinking of a few it will benefit=20 all.=20=20 >=20=20=20=20 > HPB herself predicted major changes in the world. We can smugly=20 sit back and take comfort in knowing that if we do not survive the=20 next 10 years we will have more opportunities. What about those poor=20 souls who are in spiritual limbo? >=20=20=20=20 > That's my views, I am not trying to push HPB down anyone's=20 throats, but provide an alternative viewpoint in relation to death=20 and dying. >=20=20=20=20 > Cheers > Cass >=20 > nhcareyta wrote: > Dear Cass > If I may add a comment to your posting to Leon. >=20 > Your write: >=20 > >We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 > >general public. >=20 > This is such an important statement and I (for what it's worth)=20 > commend you for your sentiment. Indeed, some of us are doing that=20 as=20 > much and as best as we can. >=20 > In so doing we must also challenge those who purport to be, but in=20 > some part are clearly not, representing her works. >=20 > When those misrepresentations and deceptions of "100 years ago" are=20 > still to this day put forward as representing her work, do we not=20 > need to clarify this for sake of theosophical inquirers and=20 students? >=20 > Regards > Nigel >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > > > Leon > > I am so glad you have brought up this issue. I get frustrated=20 > when only receive mail about who said what, who did what 100 years=20 > ago. It seems to me that the world is going quite mad at the moment=20 > and as theosophists we are still dallying with the founders. Is=20 this=20 > truly what HPB wanted when she gave us the Ancient Teachings? > >=20 > > We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 > general public. I am busy on several forums which are curious about=20 > what she actually had to say. > >=20 > > When I see Theos Talk all I can think is about Barbra=20 > Streisand, "Talk amongst yourselves" > >=20 > > I think the time for study is over, it is now time for action.=20 > Now time to walk the walk. > >=20 > > Cass > >=20 > >=20 > > leonmaurer@ wrote: > > Rad, > >=20 > > Guess that's the way it has to be. One way or the other, the=20 planet=20 > someday=20 > > will have to be cleared of the bulk of its human population that=20 > keeps=20 > > increasing in greater and greater numbers to eventually reach a=20 > point -- which is=20 > > not too far off -- where the global ecoology can't support them=20 and=20 > their=20 > > infrastructures any longer.=20 > >=20 > > Besides, isn't it necessary to make room for the new cycle of the=20 > now=20 > > infiltrating sixth family race -- with a higher level of=20 > mental/moral (Buddhi=20 > > nature) development -- so as to continue the human evolution to=20 an=20 > even higher=20 > > level before the sixth subrace appears? (Or is it subrace and=20 root=20 > race?) I=20 > > have no trouble wrapping my mind around that aspect of=20 theosophical=20 > teachings...=20 > > Since the possibility of such round and race evolution it=20 > describes, is=20 > > perfectly consistent with the ABC model -- which sees evolution,=20 on=20 > all its levels,=20 > > and particularly the physical, much like the "morphic resonance"=20 > interaction=20 > > of hyperspace morphogenetic or "morphic" fields, as explained by=20 > Rupert=20 > > Sheldrake in his book "A New science of Life." > >=20 > > Both Blavatsky and I (among many others, I suspect) thought this=20 > culling=20 > > could be caused by a sudden geographic pole shift, or series of=20 > volcanic disasters=20 > > due to intelligent nature reflecting back mankind's accumulated=20 > evil=20 > > thoughts. Or, if it occurred as the result of human actions -- we=20 > could have=20 > > anticipated a global warming and massive floods, a worldwide=20 > pandemic, or a globally=20 > > catastrophic nuclear war.=20 > >=20 > > Who would have thought it could be the lowly bees that were=20 > destined (or=20 > > chosen) to do the work? They gave us our nourishment, and now,=20 they=20 > seem to be=20 > > taking away. > >=20 > > It's ironic... But looking at the way mankind's greed and=20 ignorance=20 > of their=20 > > true nature have done it to themselves, it seems quite=20 appropriate,=20 > don't you=20 > > think?=20 > >=20 > > Isn't the purpose of each of our lives, to learn the lessons that=20 > we need to=20 > > know to arrive at self realization and to achieve a "nucleus,"=20 then=20 > a seed,=20 > > and ultimately a tree -- as a universal brotherhood of all=20 mankind - > - so as to=20 > > continue its further evolution toward its ultimate godlike=20 nature -- > with each=20 > > of us a consciously aware part of it? Isn't that the ultimate=20 > reward for all=20 > > individual points of Mankind's consciousness on this globe who=20 > manage to=20 > > survive through the whole lifetime of the manvantara without=20 losing=20 > their=20 > > conscience or inner light, and perhaps ending up isolated in the=20 > world of dark matter?=20 > > So, what's lost, if much of the current world population is=20 starved=20 > out of=20 > > existence? Especially, since they are the one's who caused it.=20 > Doesn't=20 > > perfect justice in the form of karma, as you sow, so hall you=20 reap,=20 > rule the=20 > > world? And, aren't the lives of our descendents as important as=20 our=20 > present=20 > > lives? Especially, if such descendants could be part of the=20 > incoming higher=20 > > evolved mankind that we will ultimately be reborn into. Much food=20 > for thought=20 > > here, eh... Even for the skeptics -- who can't imagine or think=20 > about any=20 > > possibility of consciousness beyond their present material=20 > lifetimes.=20 > >=20 > > BTW, the theosophical origin of the bees and the ants, along with=20 > us -- as a=20 > > necessary support of the ecology that, in turn, supports the=20 > universal=20 > > consciousness expressed in Man -- might make sense if we assume=20 > that HPB was using a=20 > > metaphor, i.e., Moon as a substitute for Mother or primal matter,=20 > out of=20 > > whose bosom all life arises and evolves. She also taught that the=20 > physical moon=20 > > was simply the shell of the dead Earth left over from a previous=20 > > manifestation or Manvantara -- that was necessary to stay and=20 > encircle around so as to=20 > > help maintain the orbit of the earth, and support the circadian=20 > rhythms of all=20 > > life, as well as acting as the mirror to reflect the highest=20 > spiritual rays of=20 > > the Sun during sleep -- to regenerate the life energy used up=20 > during waking=20 > > hours. > >=20 > > As I see it, all of that is easily explained, scientifically, by=20 > analogy and=20 > > correspondence -- from the standpoint of the ABC field's initial=20 > radiation,=20 > > fractal involution and subsequent evolution -- based on the=20 second=20 > fundamental=20 > > principle of cyclic (harmonic) laws of electrodynamics... That=20 act=20 > in=20 > > conjunction with the (first principle) ineffable zero-point=20 origin=20 > of mother SPACE with=20 > > its abstract motion or spinergy, and the (third principle)=20 ultimate=20 > purpose=20 > > of evolution, supported by reincarnation and karma. > >=20 > > So, maybe the bees are really our saviors -- both in the=20 beginning=20 > and ending=20 > > of our lives on Earth.=20 > >=20 > > Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and perfectly in accord with the=20 > theosophical=20 > > teachings. > >=20 > > What do you think? > >=20 > > Len > > P.S. And that doesn't let me off the hook either... Since back in=20 > the early=20 > > seventies, I was entrapreneurially working on starting a=20 worldwide=20 > cellphone=20 > > empowered communication network. Was it my good karma to have=20 > failed in all=20 > > my previous enterprises leading to that one -- which also never=20 > could be=20 > > consummated due to my lack of sufficient personal wealth?=20 Although,=20 > there were=20 > > plenty of other such electronic business startups that made it=20 all=20 > the way to=20 > > the present morass of bee extermination, and ultimately, a goodly=20 > portion of the=20 > > human race... If that really is the cause, and not equally greed- > driven,=20 > > worldwide biochemical dispersion, global warming, etc. Either=20 > way... Same=20 > > difference. We did it to ourselves. And, by now, I think it's=20 much=20 > too late in=20 > > the game to reverse any of it. Somehow, however, it makes me=20 happy=20 > to have=20 > > been a technological business failure. >=20 > > In a message dated 5/2/07 10:02:51 AM, rpera@ writes: > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Well, > > > =C2=20 > > > Blavatsky said that only bees, ants and rice made it to Earth=20 > from the=20 > > > Moon. I could never wrap my head around that =E2=80=9Cfrom the=20 Moon=E2=80=9D=20 > stuff, but I have=20 > > > always acknowledged another import of her statement: that bees=20 > are ESSENTIAL=20 > > > to life on this planet. > > > =C2=20 > > > The web of life is SO fragile.=C2 We got along without cell- phones=20 > for long=20 > > > enough after cars=E2=80=A6 d=E2=80=99ya think we could give them up t= o save=20 > life as we know=20 > > > it?=C2 (Then again, perhaps it is that very thing, =E2=80=9Clife as w= e=20 > know it=E2=80=9D that=20 > > > should not be saved=E2=80=A6) Either way, according to Einstein (one= =20 of=20 > your mentors) we > > > =E2=80=99ve only got a few years left=E2=80=A6 Who would=E2=80=99a th= unk it would=20 > happen this way?=C2=20 > > > Oh, I=E2=80=99m sure a few people did.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > And there is a certain radical beauty about it: no =E2=80=9Cterrorist= =20 > threat=E2=80=9D, not=20 > > > some =E2=80=9Cforeign dictator=E2=80=9D, no individual =E2=80=9Cevil = man=E2=80=9D, but=20 > just us =E2=80" every one=20 > > > of us phone-carrying humans is to blame =E2=80" innocently, and yet=20 > collectively.=C2=20 > > > We=E2=80=99ve =E2=80=9Ctechnologicized=E2=80=9D ourselves into oblivi= on. That=E2=80=99s=20 > been the=20 > > > overriding =E2=80=9Cterror vision=E2=80=9D all along hasn=E2=80=99t i= t, that=20 we=E2=80=99d=20 > do ourselves in?=C2 Hey, we=20 > > > were right!=C2 I mean wrong=E2=80=A6 I mean right about being wrong.= =C2=20 > Wrong-headed,=20 > > > that is.=C2 Irresponsible, un-steward-like, rushing to permeate=20 > the planet with=20 > > > deadly, invisible, odorless micro-waves without first testing=20 ALL=20 > of the=20 > > > possible fall-out.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > Why? > > > =C2=20 > > > Greed first, then convenience. Greed on the part of mega-corps=20 > who saw how=20 > > > marketing cell-phones to everyone and their sister would yield=20 > unprecedented=20 > > > profit, and our notion of convenience: never having to stop to=20 > make a phone=20 > > > call, and the seduction of the self-importance that luxury=20 > engenders.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > What a price to pay for it! > > > =C2=20 > > > Oh well.=C2 It=E2=80=99ll be interesting to see just how selfish huma= ns=20 > are when, in=20 > > > a very short amount of time we=E2=80=99re all squarely faced with=20 > letting go of=20 > > > something we considered =E2=80=9CProgress=E2=80=9D but is in the end = the=20 > opposite! > > > =C2=20 > > > Its been a fun ride (sorta-kinda), > > > Radames Pera > > > =C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > >=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: LeonMaurer@ [mailto:LeonMaurer@] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:47 PM > > > To: undisclosed-recipients: > > > Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > > > =C2=20 > > > The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. > > > Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > > >=20 > > > Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for=20 > mysterious 'colony=20 > > > collapse' of bees > > >=20 > > > By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross > > >=20 > > > It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror=20 film.=20 > But some=20 > > > scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could=20 cause=20 > massive food=20 > > > shortages, as the world's harvests fail. > > >=20 > > > They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by=20 > mobile=20 > > > phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of=20 > the more bizarre=20 > > > mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt=20 > disappearance of=20 > > > the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers=20 > claimed that=20 > > > the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to=20 > continental Europe -=20 > > > was beginning to hit Britain as well. > > >=20 > > > The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with=20 > bees'=20 > > > navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the=20 > psychophysical=20 > > > sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species=20 from=20 > finding their way=20 > > > back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now=20 > evidence to back=20 > > > this up. > > >=20 > > > Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants=20 > suddenly=20 > > > disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature=20 workers,=20 > like so many=20 > > > apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but=20 > thought to die=20 > > > singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees=20 that=20 > normally raid=20 > > > the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to=20 go=20 > anywhere=20 > > > near the abandoned hives. > > >=20 > > > The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half=20 of=20 > all=20 > > > American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per=20 > cent of its=20 > > > commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East=20 > Coast. > > >=20 > > > CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal,=20 > Italy and=20 > > > Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee- > keepers,=20 > > > announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. > > >=20 > > > Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and=20 north- > west=20 > > > England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural=20 > Affairs insisted:=20 > > > "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." > > >=20 > > > The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the=20 world's=20 > crops=20 > > > depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that=20 if=20 > the bees=20 > > > disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". > > >=20 > > > No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites,=20 > pesticides,=20 > > > global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have=20 > drawbacks. > > >=20 > > > German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes=20 near=20 > power=20 > > > lines. > > >=20 > > > Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees=20 > refuse to=20 > > > return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr=20 > Jochen Kuhn, who=20 > > > carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible=20 > cause. > > >=20 > > > Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US=20 government=20 > and mobile=20 > > > phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties,=20 said: "I=20 > am convinced=20 > > > the possibility is real." > > >=20 > > > The case against handsets > > >=20 > > > Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing.=20 > But proof is=20 > > > still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such=20 > as cancer,=20 > > > take decades to show up. > > >=20 > > > Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an=20 > official=20 > > > Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more=20 than=20 > 10 years were=20 > > > 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side=20 as=20 > they held=20 > > > the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per=20 > capita in Finland=20 > > > than anywhere in the world.] > > >=20 > > > Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that=20 > radiation from=20 > > > mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's=20 > teenagers could=20 > > > go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they=20 > already were.] > > >=20 > > > Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that=20 men=20 > who use=20 > > > mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more=20 > prosaically, doctors=20 > > > have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI=20 from=20 > constant=20 > > > texting. > > >=20 > > > Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official=20 > inquiries, warned=20 > > > that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a=20 > series of safety=20 > > > recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ************************************** > > > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > > >=20 > >=20 > > ************************************** > > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --------------------------------- > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From Sven04@comhem.se Thu May 03 08:36:42 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: Sven04@comhem.se X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12490 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 15:36:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 15:36:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net) (80.76.149.212) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 15:36:28 -0000 Received: from c83-253-205-189.bredband.comhem.se ([83.253.205.189]:1257 helo=sveinn-fp1krz97.comhem.se) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hjd6g-0001BP-3I for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 03 May 2007 17:20:34 +0200 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 17:18:43 +0200 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: X-Authenticated: u13406688@ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 29851d6d68e0cd77c3be340a01e6cb02 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1Hjd6g-0001BP-3I. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1Hjd6g-0001BP-3I be7b5ee9d3e5d7163562a131761d9e5d X-Originating-IP: 80.76.149.212 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Sveinn Freyr Subject: Multiple star generations - X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=288703295; y=uzgqtHhNsTq-lADfX13Jh8tcYI_PUChrI4xpoTRWhxX4 X-Yahoo-Profile: ari343 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40523 Interesting observations: - S. F. ~~~~~~ Hubble sees multiple star generations in a globular cluster. 2 May 2007 "Hubble's observations of the massive globular cluster NGC 2808 provide evidence for three generations of stars that formed early in its life. This is a major upset for conventional theories that propose a single period of star birth." "We had never imagined that anything like this could happen," "Such a finding, so close to home has deep cosmological implications. "We need to solve the puzzle to understand how stars formed in distant galaxies in our early Universe," More at: http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMGXYSM41F_index_0.html ~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mkr777@gmail.com Thu May 03 08:53:13 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49151 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 15:52:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 15:52:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO wx-out-0506.google.com) (66.249.82.225) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 15:52:42 -0000 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t13so462746wxc for ; Thu, 03 May 2007 08:52:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=SvTfX2ahY16IKUuu+p65uy3ix//1agFIAErv6FCvG+vuCvJFz2VsPs42sPJ759Hq25mlXpGnGhdaToh4kpNxvs2wdUN2jRXzd3UpL7heezyQJozCj/Xi3BlLFcgYoXcaqdCgJg6NEa2rxJYATLNRJvq++OQiwwe2OMM6eqgWd3o= Received: by 10.90.98.3 with SMTP id v3mr1974990agb.1178207557121; Thu, 03 May 2007 08:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.89.19 with HTTP; Thu, 3 May 2007 08:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:52:37 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <555747.68060.qm@web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 66.249.82.225 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: Theos-World Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636; y=rjg6q3YdOQQnVaZJ6ILUPvGG8iTpaG30sWtjwm3GiZ9USNXUfUQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40524 Just a few days back I read HPB writing about the difficulty making people think for themselves (I can't immediately quote the passage) and the importance of making people think for themselves. When one is constantly exposed to a set of ideas day in day out, a kind of unconscious brain washing takes place that even very learned and intelligent persons find it hard to realize (they may be even leaders and PhDs). All organizations want conformity and obedient followers and that makes it easy to run the orgn. Some of these individuals sometimes try to use principles such as Karma to make the followers conform. One time, a well know leader in one of the organizations made a very subtle attempt to do so to me and I saw thru it. We need more independent thinkers who are also independent in the sense they are not looking for fame or power or public or organizational acceptance, since most organizations try to influence the thinking and action thru subtle incentives (monetary or in-kind) for conformity of the follower. My 0.02. mkr. On 5/3/07, nhcareyta wrote: > > It seems to me that so long as people blindly follow and accept > others' pronouncements, INCLUDING those of the Mahatmas and Madame > Blavatsky, we as a humanity will never fully think for ourselves and > will continue to think, speak and act largely from our often fear- > based, habit, conditioned, reactive mindset produced and inherited > from skandhas, parents, school, peers, society and culture. > > Perhaps only when we truly liberate our minds will we see beyond > these distinctions and limitations and will indeed begin to develop a > nucleus of the Brotherhood (Unity) of humanity. Until then, many of > us will continue to follow like sheep whichever person, group or > organisation happens to tell us either that which we would like to > hear or how we would like things to be.._._,___ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu May 03 10:36:28 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76171 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 17:36:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m44.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 17:36:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.186) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 17:36:27 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n5.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:36:02 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.83] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:36:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:36:02 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 17:36:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.186 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: H.P.B. did NOT hesitate to point out Pseudo-Theosophy.... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=-HEZa4T7IaL7A-79n7gCeifjwiuiG_JeoLV0VOwVHXNNGeurvQGVC1SA X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40525 H.P.Blavatsky did NOT hesitate to point out Pseudo-Theosophy. Notice what HPB wrote: "=85If the 'false prophets of Theosophy' are to be left untouched, the true prophets will be very soon--as they have already been--confused with the false. It is nigh time to winnow our corn and cast away the chaff." "=85 We do not believe in allowing the presence of sham elements in Theosophy, because of the fear, forsooth, that if even 'a false element in the faith' is ridiculed, the latter 'is apt to shake the confidence' in the whole=85." STRONG WORDS, no doubt. And elsewhere HPB wrote: "...The great evil of the whole thing is, not that the truths of Theosophy are adopted by these blind teachers, for we should gladly welcome any spread, by whatever means, of ideals so powerful to wean the world from its dire materialism - but that they are so interwoven with mis-statements and absurdities that the wheat cannot be winnowed from the chaff, and ridicule, if not worse, is brought to bear upon. . . [the Theosophical] movement. . . ." Or take these words of H.P.B: "Great are the desecrations to which the names of two of the Masters have been subjected. There is hardly a medium who has not claimed to have seen them. Every bogus swindling Society, for commercial purposes, now claims to be guided and directed by 'Masters' often supposed to be far higher than ours!...." The Key to Theosophy, original edition, p. 301. "The publication of many of the facts herein stated has been rendered necessary by the wild and fanciful speculation in which many Theosophists and students of mysticism have indulged...." The Secret Doctrine, original edition, Vol. I, p. viii. "... A new and rapidly growing danger...is threatening...the spread of the pure Esoteric Philosophy and knowledge....I allude to those charlatanesque imitations of Occultism and Theosophy....By pandering to the prejudices of people, and especially by adopting the false ideas of a personal God and a personal, carnalized Saviour, as the groundwork of their teaching, the leaders of this 'swindle' (for such it is) are endeavoring to draw men to them and in particular to turn Theosophists from the true path." E.S. Instruction No. I., 1890 edition, p. 2. Now if all of this was happening during the years when HPB wrote the above statements, one should not be surprised if such claims, etc. CONTINUED to happen after she died when she would not be available to warn students. In fact, from a study of the decades following HPB's death, one can see that such claims, etc. grew and grew and GREW.... Also consider the warnings given by H.P.B.'s Teachers. See a selection of some of these at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/psychicversusinitiate.htm And more material from H.P.B's pen on the above subject matter can be found at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/onpseudotheosophy.htm http://blavatskyarchives.com/latermessengers.htm http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophicaltraditions.htm If one believes in the bonafides of HPB and her Masters and of their teachings, etc.,, then I would suggest that their words on this particular topic are worthy of careful consideration and serious discussion. Daniel http://hpb.cc =20 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu May 03 10:45:24 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22860 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 17:45:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 17:45:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.31) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 17:45:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n29.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:44:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.85] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:44:10 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 17:44:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.31 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Claims of being in Contact with H.P.B.'s Masters Part 1 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=nswICuOGwRpa7mcmlKWCH2pn__gbGmPxv6Y_1__oh0wX7UqC6t6RNkwq X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40526 Claims of being in=20 Contact with H.P.B.'s Masters=20=20=20 In 1884, the Theosophist A.P. Sinnett, who was the major recipient of "The Mahatma Letters," believed he was in contact with the Master Koot Hoomi, INDEPENDENT of H.P.B. acting as mediator. Sinnett wrote in his book "The Early Days of Theosophy": "About this time [early July 1884] Mrs. Holloway, a wonderfully gifted American psychic came to stay with us. . . . .She used to get vivid clairvoyant visions of the Master [Koot Hoomi], - could pass on messages to me from K.H. and on one occasion he actually made use of her to speak to me in the first person." p. 27 But the Master K.H. (in a letter received by Mr. Sinnett on July 18, 1884) pronounced Sinnett's claim FALSE and UNTRUE: "You ask me if you can tell Miss Arundale what I told you thro' Mrs. H[olloway]. . . . . .[But] I have never . . . communicated with you or any one else thro' her. . . . . She is an excellent but quite undeveloped clairvoyante. . . . ." The Mahatma Letters, 2nd ed., p. 355 During this same summer, Master KH wrote to Mrs. Holloway: "Your vivid creative fancy [imagination] evokes illusive Gurus and chelas, and puts into their mouths words coined the instant before in the mint of your mind, unknown to yourself. The false appear as real, as the true, and you have no exact method of detection since you are yet prone to force your communications to agree with your preconceptions. . . . " "Mrs. Holloway and the Mahatmas," Letter 17. Despite this emphatic denial by K.H., Sinnett persisted in searching for another "channel" to the Master INDEPENDENT of H.P.B. In "The Autobiography of Alfred Percy Sinnett," he wrote: "On the 26th of April 1886. . . we went . . . to the Albemarle Club . . . to meet a lady who was . . . desirous of making my acquaintance . . . . . I will give her a fictitious name and call her Mary. . . . shortly afterwards I tried a mesmeric experiment with her (in accordance with her wish) and obtained remarkable results - she went very easily into a trance in which she became unequivocally clairvoyant. . . .I became convinced that she clairvoyantly saw the mountain region in Tibet where the Master K.H. resided. . . . . It became obvious that Mary might become a link between myself and the Master. . . . . Mary came to stay with us . . . in February 1888 and our regular mesmeric sittings were resumed almost every evening, the Master [KH] talking to me through her in most cases. In this way I gathered a great deal of miscellaneous occult information. . . . . Mary left us to go to her own home in May 1888 having had mesmeric sitting almost every evening while she was with us, at most of which the Master spoke to me, - or rather dictated to her what he wished to say. She would pass into a higher condition in which she could be in touch with him and be enabled to repeat his words to her in reply to my questions or remarks." pp 33 & 38-39 Again Master KH in a letter (dated August 22, 1888) to Colonel Henry S. Olcott DENIED Sinnett's claim: "Since 1885 I have not written, nor caused to be written save thro' her [HPB's] agency, direct or remote, a letter or line to anybody in Europe or America, nor communicated orally with, or thro' any third party. Theosophists should learn it." "You will understand later the significance of this declaration so keep it in mind. Her [HPB's] fidelity to our work being constant, and her sufferings having come upon her thro' it, neither I nor either of my Brother associates will desert or supplant her." "Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom," Series I, 1973, p. 45 Mr. Sinnett also IGNORED this warning preferring to believe that he was in contact with the real Master K.H. thru the same individual (Mary) mentioned above. After H.P. Blavatsky's death in 1891, numerous OTHER individuals have claimed to be in contact with her Adept Teachers and have stated that they were new "messengers" of the Masters conveying even more esoteric teachings from the Masters. Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://blavatskyarchives.com =20 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu May 03 10:53:54 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17552 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 17:53:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m41.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 17:53:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.22) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 17:53:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n29.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:53:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by t2.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:53:24 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 17:53:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.22 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Claims of being in Contact with H.P.B.'s Masters Part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=xNn7JQoPGU3LP9vmMcg59y-YleyC3a632Paqf-njrQyp6Ez0XeZY6hv8 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40527 Claims of being in=20 Contact with H.P.B.'s Masters Part 2 In a letter dated Sept. 14, 1888, H.P. Blavatsky wrote the following to the American Theosophist John Ransom Bridge: "For the past 12 years I have been imparting, & transmitting esoteric teachings without enacting any pledge or imposing conditions to several =97 more or less known individuals among others =97 a few Hindus. Since the explosion of the infamous Hodgson & Coulomb conspiracy against me some of my ex-pupils ill-grounded in the theosophical spirit, have, for various reasons deserted me, after posing for chelas. The latter attitude they would not abandon, however. "Hence since that time, they have been giving out travestied versions of the esoteric philosophy, composed of one part of truths, & three parts misconceptions & conceit. Thus great confusion, & contradictory statements have been made in print, all of which have been pitched back upon my unfortunate head. "Not only that, but with the idea of making themselves more important they have pretended that my occult knowledge had faded away during my illness; that even Masters have turned away from me to them, & that I was now the prey of Elementals & half-fledged chelas! "Many, however, wish me to continue my instructions. But I am not willing to do so, save under restrictions shown by experience to be necessary. I am determined not to permit any longer the Master's names to be desecrated & dragged in the mire of idiotic criticism." Quoted from: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hpbjrb.htm Concerning Mme. Blavatsky's above statement that reads: "...they have pretended that my occult knowledge had faded away during my illness; that even Masters have turned away from me to them, & that I was now the prey of Elementals & half-fledged chelas! !" COMPARE what Mahatma Koot Hoomi had written to Colonel Henry S. Olcott just three weeks BEFORE the above was penned: [August 22, 1888] "...we employ agents -- the best available. Of these for the past thirty years the chief has been the personality known as H. P. B. to the world (but otherwise to us). Imperfect and very troublesome, no doubt, she proves to some, nevertheless, there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come -- and your theosophists should be made to understand it.... "...Her fidelity to our work being constant, and her sufferings having come upon her thro' it, neither I nor either of my Brother associates will desert or supplant her.... "...this you must tell to all: -- With occult matters she has everything to do. We have not abandoned her; she is not 'given over to chelas.' She is our direct agent.... "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. . . . K.H." Quoted from: Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, Letter 19, 5th edition. WHO WERE THE PERSONS claiming that the Masters had "abandoned" H.P. Blavatsky and that she "was given over to chelas"? One person was probably A.P. Sinnett. But it would appear that T. Subba Row was also making this claim. In a letter dated June 5, 1888 to W.Q. Judge, Madame Blavatsky wrote: "My dear Judge ...Subba Row, Cooper-Oakley N. Cook have resigned from the T.S. & left Adyar. . . . You know that S.R. [Subba Row] claimed for the two past years to be in communication with my Master....!!! ...[Subba Row] showed Sanskrit letters from Him (no handwriting no indiscrete calligraphy =97 in Sanskrit!) to himself, & translated them to C.O. [Alfred Cooper-Oakley] The letters were to the effect that he S.R. had to reform the Society, & hinted that I, HPB had been given up by the Masters!! C.O. who has chosen S.R. for his guru, who worships him as does N. Cook believes in him explicitly. "What are the 'Muslin & bladder Mahatmas' of the Coulombs compared to such doings!! Bus, bus =97 I must say nothing, however much I may be disgusted. But, as the ranks thin around us, & one after the other our best intellectual Forces depart to turn bitter enemies =97 I say =97 Blessed are the pure hearted who have only intuition for intuition is better than intellect...." Quoted from: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hpbwqj6588.htm And in another letter dated July 12, 1888 to N.D.K. Khandalavala, Madame Blavatsky gives more details: "Mrs. C.O. [Isabel Cooper-Oakley, wife of Alfred Cooper-Oakley] said to the Countess [Wachtmeister] several times that her 'Alf' [Alfred Cooper-Oakley] is constantly receiving through S.R. [Subba Row] letters from the Master, my Master!! One of such letters (a copy) she showed and read to the Countess, to prove to her that she and S.R. and C.O. and Cook all believed in the Masters. "Now I know that my Master (whom they called Mahatma Morya) has never since I left Adyar written on single line to anyone at Adyar, or Madras, or India, except a few words once to H.S.O. [Henry S. Olcott]. I have Master's assurance to this effect. . . . surely something must be rotten 'in the state of Denmark.' This is private and confidential, and meant for you alone. You can ask Countess if you like...." Even the Mahatma Koot Hoomi in his July 1888 communication to H.P. Blavatsky concerning Henry S. Olcott refers to Alfred Cooper-Oakley and T. Subba Row and mentions the claim being circulated at that time that the "'Masters' are in direct correspondence and communication with C.O. [Alfred Cooper-Oakley] =96 their TRUE delegate BEING NOW at Madras =96 S.R [Subba Row]...." Quoted from: Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, First Series, Letter 47. Caps added. In light of all the above, one can start to understand why Mahatma Koot Hoomi wrote to Colonel Olcott the following: [August 22, 1888] "...we employ agents -- the best available. Of these for the past thirty years the chief has been the personality known as H. P. B. to the world (but otherwise to us). Imperfect and very troublesome, no doubt, she proves to some, nevertheless, there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come -- and your theosophists should be made to understand it.... ...Her fidelity to our work being constant, and her sufferings having come upon her thro' it, neither I nor either of my Brother associates will desert or supplant her.... ...this you must tell to all: -- With occult matters she has everything to do. We have not abandoned her; she is not 'given over to chelas.' She is our direct agent.... Daniel H. Caldwell http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu May 03 11:01:35 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79322 invoked from network); 3 May 2007 18:00:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2007 18:00:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.56) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2007 18:00:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n27.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:58:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2007 17:58:53 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 17:58:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.56 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: H.P. Blavatsky's Unique Occult Status & Mission X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=DMyWlg0V6lbf5_lCDpTnVn1auJIcjn9ghqtXUQoiiJnHMwS6zhbD7fhb X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40528 H.P. Blavatsky's Unique=20 Occult Status & Mission See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hpbsstatusmission.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu May 03 17:30:46 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57831 invoked from network); 4 May 2007 00:30:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2007 00:30:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.109) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2007 00:30:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 87831 invoked by uid 60001); 4 May 2007 00:30:40 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: BLLQQo0VM1mnSiOjspTn1ewoe8r8cD36tevsHe9d Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 03 May 2007 17:30:40 PDT Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 17:30:40 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <806323.86290.qm@web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.109 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=CiZ40pEkTdaL5mn_uBmPK3E4gWUM-xhJjVaNSSweYrDMLMDT-A X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40529 Thanks for your kind words and insights. I agree we shouldn't accept blind= ly what anyone says, my motto, is a "definite maybe", until I prove it for = myself. In the meantime, HPB is the best there is too offer, imo. =20=20=20 Love Cass =20=20=20 ps Perhaps it is time to put the "dilemma" to bed, as you say, it causes = negative energy for theosophy at best, wasted energy at worst. =20=20=20 Even though Leadbeaterism and Besantism et all is not pure theosophy, I i= magine it has helped souls by putting them in the right direction, especial= ly Christians. nhcareyta wrote: Dear Cass Thank you for your response and interesting perspective. You write, "I would think that newcomers to Theosophy would rightly=20 say to themselves, "they cannot even agree on the teachings". Yes, you raise an eternal dilemma.=20 In pointing out the differing versions of theosophy, those of us who=20 think that Madame Blavatsky and her teachers shared the most=20 authentic, albeit necessarily imperfect version of Theosophy, create=20 not only the possibility of what you suggest for student/inquirers=20 but also run the risk of protesting too much and thereby creating an=20 allure for pseudo or neo-theosophy.=20 Moreover, we run the additional risks of generating antagonistic=20 energies which in themselves may potentially be counter-productive as=20 well as appearing as dogmatists ourselves. My decision to challenge obvious contradictions and deceptions in the=20 various literatures arises after observing the effects of pseudo/neo- theosophy on the mindsets of many people. Where Madame Blavatsky and=20 the Mahatmas' Theosophy encourages and facilitates an open, non- dogmatic and ever-inquiring mind to me, certain other later versions=20 do not. They are mostly authoritarian in style opening the way for=20 blind-minded obedience to their holy writ. This is not for me=20 the "new continent of thought" promoted by the Mahatmas and is not=20 that to which they were referring when Madame Blavatsky re-introduced=20 the term Theosophy to the modern age. It seems to me that so long as people blindly follow and accept=20 others' pronouncements, INCLUDING those of the Mahatmas and Madame=20 Blavatsky, we as a humanity will never fully think for ourselves and=20 will continue to think, speak and act largely from our often fear- based, habit, conditioned, reactive mindset produced and inherited=20 from skandhas, parents, school, peers, society and culture. Perhaps only when we truly liberate our minds will we see beyond=20 these distinctions and limitations and will indeed begin to develop a=20 nucleus of the Brotherhood (Unity) of humanity. Until then, many of=20 us will continue to follow like sheep whichever person, group or=20 organisation happens to tell us either that which we would like to=20 hear or how we would like things to be. In the meantime, please don't feel too "frustrated". We are each=20 doing what we think to be the right thing. Perhaps there is a place=20 for all honest and truthful avenues of approach? Thanks again Cass. Kind regards Nigel --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > No I don't thinks so Nigel, it keeps us grounded into intellectual=20 debate. I would think that newcomers to Theosophy would rightly say=20 to themselves, "they cannot even agree on the teachings". As far as=20 I am concerned HPB was the messenger chosen, not Leadbeater, not=20 Besant, not Bailey, so it is her teachings that I am loyal to.=20 Without HPB there would not have been a theosophical society. If=20 others choose to promote CWL et al, then I guess it will come down to=20 their motives. As I said, I think the time has passed when we can=20 sit around and muse about right or wrong teachings. >=20 > People in the world are truly living in fear of the unexpected,=20 especially with the doom and gloom predicted by the new agers and the=20 2012 apocolypstics. They need a sound, cohesive, reliable philosophy=20 that will assist them in whatever lies ahead for all of humanity.=20 Even if we can only change the fear-thinking of a few it will benefit=20 all.=20 >=20 > HPB herself predicted major changes in the world. We can smugly=20 sit back and take comfort in knowing that if we do not survive the=20 next 10 years we will have more opportunities. What about those poor=20 souls who are in spiritual limbo? >=20 > That's my views, I am not trying to push HPB down anyone's=20 throats, but provide an alternative viewpoint in relation to death=20 and dying. >=20 > Cheers > Cass >=20 > nhcareyta wrote: > Dear Cass > If I may add a comment to your posting to Leon. >=20 > Your write: >=20 > >We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 > >general public. >=20 > This is such an important statement and I (for what it's worth)=20 > commend you for your sentiment. Indeed, some of us are doing that=20 as=20 > much and as best as we can. >=20 > In so doing we must also challenge those who purport to be, but in=20 > some part are clearly not, representing her works. >=20 > When those misrepresentations and deceptions of "100 years ago" are=20 > still to this day put forward as representing her work, do we not=20 > need to clarify this for sake of theosophical inquirers and=20 students? >=20 > Regards > Nigel >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > > > Leon > > I am so glad you have brought up this issue. I get frustrated=20 > when only receive mail about who said what, who did what 100 years=20 > ago. It seems to me that the world is going quite mad at the moment=20 > and as theosophists we are still dallying with the founders. Is=20 this=20 > truly what HPB wanted when she gave us the Ancient Teachings? > >=20 > > We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 > general public. I am busy on several forums which are curious about=20 > what she actually had to say. > >=20 > > When I see Theos Talk all I can think is about Barbra=20 > Streisand, "Talk amongst yourselves" > >=20 > > I think the time for study is over, it is now time for action.=20 > Now time to walk the walk. > >=20 > > Cass > >=20 > >=20 > > leonmaurer@ wrote: > > Rad, > >=20 > > Guess that's the way it has to be. One way or the other, the=20 planet=20 > someday=20 > > will have to be cleared of the bulk of its human population that=20 > keeps=20 > > increasing in greater and greater numbers to eventually reach a=20 > point -- which is=20 > > not too far off -- where the global ecoology can't support them=20 and=20 > their=20 > > infrastructures any longer.=20 > >=20 > > Besides, isn't it necessary to make room for the new cycle of the=20 > now=20 > > infiltrating sixth family race -- with a higher level of=20 > mental/moral (Buddhi=20 > > nature) development -- so as to continue the human evolution to=20 an=20 > even higher=20 > > level before the sixth subrace appears? (Or is it subrace and=20 root=20 > race?) I=20 > > have no trouble wrapping my mind around that aspect of=20 theosophical=20 > teachings...=20 > > Since the possibility of such round and race evolution it=20 > describes, is=20 > > perfectly consistent with the ABC model -- which sees evolution,=20 on=20 > all its levels,=20 > > and particularly the physical, much like the "morphic resonance"=20 > interaction=20 > > of hyperspace morphogenetic or "morphic" fields, as explained by=20 > Rupert=20 > > Sheldrake in his book "A New science of Life." > >=20 > > Both Blavatsky and I (among many others, I suspect) thought this=20 > culling=20 > > could be caused by a sudden geographic pole shift, or series of=20 > volcanic disasters=20 > > due to intelligent nature reflecting back mankind's accumulated=20 > evil=20 > > thoughts. Or, if it occurred as the result of human actions -- we=20 > could have=20 > > anticipated a global warming and massive floods, a worldwide=20 > pandemic, or a globally=20 > > catastrophic nuclear war.=20 > >=20 > > Who would have thought it could be the lowly bees that were=20 > destined (or=20 > > chosen) to do the work? They gave us our nourishment, and now,=20 they=20 > seem to be=20 > > taking away. > >=20 > > It's ironic... But looking at the way mankind's greed and=20 ignorance=20 > of their=20 > > true nature have done it to themselves, it seems quite=20 appropriate,=20 > don't you=20 > > think?=20 > >=20 > > Isn't the purpose of each of our lives, to learn the lessons that=20 > we need to=20 > > know to arrive at self realization and to achieve a "nucleus,"=20 then=20 > a seed,=20 > > and ultimately a tree -- as a universal brotherhood of all=20 mankind - > - so as to=20 > > continue its further evolution toward its ultimate godlike=20 nature -- > with each=20 > > of us a consciously aware part of it? Isn't that the ultimate=20 > reward for all=20 > > individual points of Mankind's consciousness on this globe who=20 > manage to=20 > > survive through the whole lifetime of the manvantara without=20 losing=20 > their=20 > > conscience or inner light, and perhaps ending up isolated in the=20 > world of dark matter?=20 > > So, what's lost, if much of the current world population is=20 starved=20 > out of=20 > > existence? Especially, since they are the one's who caused it.=20 > Doesn't=20 > > perfect justice in the form of karma, as you sow, so hall you=20 reap,=20 > rule the=20 > > world? And, aren't the lives of our descendents as important as=20 our=20 > present=20 > > lives? Especially, if such descendants could be part of the=20 > incoming higher=20 > > evolved mankind that we will ultimately be reborn into. Much food=20 > for thought=20 > > here, eh... Even for the skeptics -- who can't imagine or think=20 > about any=20 > > possibility of consciousness beyond their present material=20 > lifetimes.=20 > >=20 > > BTW, the theosophical origin of the bees and the ants, along with=20 > us -- as a=20 > > necessary support of the ecology that, in turn, supports the=20 > universal=20 > > consciousness expressed in Man -- might make sense if we assume=20 > that HPB was using a=20 > > metaphor, i.e., Moon as a substitute for Mother or primal matter,=20 > out of=20 > > whose bosom all life arises and evolves. She also taught that the=20 > physical moon=20 > > was simply the shell of the dead Earth left over from a previous=20 > > manifestation or Manvantara -- that was necessary to stay and=20 > encircle around so as to=20 > > help maintain the orbit of the earth, and support the circadian=20 > rhythms of all=20 > > life, as well as acting as the mirror to reflect the highest=20 > spiritual rays of=20 > > the Sun during sleep -- to regenerate the life energy used up=20 > during waking=20 > > hours. > >=20 > > As I see it, all of that is easily explained, scientifically, by=20 > analogy and=20 > > correspondence -- from the standpoint of the ABC field's initial=20 > radiation,=20 > > fractal involution and subsequent evolution -- based on the=20 second=20 > fundamental=20 > > principle of cyclic (harmonic) laws of electrodynamics... That=20 act=20 > in=20 > > conjunction with the (first principle) ineffable zero-point=20 origin=20 > of mother SPACE with=20 > > its abstract motion or spinergy, and the (third principle)=20 ultimate=20 > purpose=20 > > of evolution, supported by reincarnation and karma. > >=20 > > So, maybe the bees are really our saviors -- both in the=20 beginning=20 > and ending=20 > > of our lives on Earth.=20 > >=20 > > Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and perfectly in accord with the=20 > theosophical=20 > > teachings. > >=20 > > What do you think? > >=20 > > Len > > P.S. And that doesn't let me off the hook either... Since back in=20 > the early=20 > > seventies, I was entrapreneurially working on starting a=20 worldwide=20 > cellphone=20 > > empowered communication network. Was it my good karma to have=20 > failed in all=20 > > my previous enterprises leading to that one -- which also never=20 > could be=20 > > consummated due to my lack of sufficient personal wealth?=20 Although,=20 > there were=20 > > plenty of other such electronic business startups that made it=20 all=20 > the way to=20 > > the present morass of bee extermination, and ultimately, a goodly=20 > portion of the=20 > > human race... If that really is the cause, and not equally greed- > driven,=20 > > worldwide biochemical dispersion, global warming, etc. Either=20 > way... Same=20 > > difference. We did it to ourselves. And, by now, I think it's=20 much=20 > too late in=20 > > the game to reverse any of it. Somehow, however, it makes me=20 happy=20 > to have=20 > > been a technological business failure. >=20 > > In a message dated 5/2/07 10:02:51 AM, rpera@ writes: > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Well, > > > =C2=20 > > > Blavatsky said that only bees, ants and rice made it to Earth=20 > from the=20 > > > Moon. I could never wrap my head around that =E2=80=9Cfrom the=20 Moon=E2=80=9D=20 > stuff, but I have=20 > > > always acknowledged another import of her statement: that bees=20 > are ESSENTIAL=20 > > > to life on this planet. > > > =C2=20 > > > The web of life is SO fragile.=C2 We got along without cell- phones=20 > for long=20 > > > enough after cars=E2=80=A6 d=E2=80=99ya think we could give them up t= o save=20 > life as we know=20 > > > it?=C2 (Then again, perhaps it is that very thing, =E2=80=9Clife as w= e=20 > know it=E2=80=9D that=20 > > > should not be saved=E2=80=A6) Either way, according to Einstein (one= =20 of=20 > your mentors) we > > > =E2=80=99ve only got a few years left=E2=80=A6 Who would=E2=80=99a th= unk it would=20 > happen this way?=C2=20 > > > Oh, I=E2=80=99m sure a few people did.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > And there is a certain radical beauty about it: no =E2=80=9Cterrorist= =20 > threat=E2=80=9D, not=20 > > > some =E2=80=9Cforeign dictator=E2=80=9D, no individual =E2=80=9Cevil = man=E2=80=9D, but=20 > just us =E2=80" every one=20 > > > of us phone-carrying humans is to blame =E2=80" innocently, and yet=20 > collectively.=C2=20 > > > We=E2=80=99ve =E2=80=9Ctechnologicized=E2=80=9D ourselves into oblivi= on. That=E2=80=99s=20 > been the=20 > > > overriding =E2=80=9Cterror vision=E2=80=9D all along hasn=E2=80=99t i= t, that=20 we=E2=80=99d=20 > do ourselves in?=C2 Hey, we=20 > > > were right!=C2 I mean wrong=E2=80=A6 I mean right about being wrong.= =C2=20 > Wrong-headed,=20 > > > that is.=C2 Irresponsible, un-steward-like, rushing to permeate=20 > the planet with=20 > > > deadly, invisible, odorless micro-waves without first testing=20 ALL=20 > of the=20 > > > possible fall-out.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > Why? > > > =C2=20 > > > Greed first, then convenience. Greed on the part of mega-corps=20 > who saw how=20 > > > marketing cell-phones to everyone and their sister would yield=20 > unprecedented=20 > > > profit, and our notion of convenience: never having to stop to=20 > make a phone=20 > > > call, and the seduction of the self-importance that luxury=20 > engenders.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > What a price to pay for it! > > > =C2=20 > > > Oh well.=C2 It=E2=80=99ll be interesting to see just how selfish huma= ns=20 > are when, in=20 > > > a very short amount of time we=E2=80=99re all squarely faced with=20 > letting go of=20 > > > something we considered =E2=80=9CProgress=E2=80=9D but is in the end = the=20 > opposite! > > > =C2=20 > > > Its been a fun ride (sorta-kinda), > > > Radames Pera > > > =C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > >=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: LeonMaurer@ [mailto:LeonMaurer@] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:47 PM > > > To: undisclosed-recipients: > > > Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > > > =C2=20 > > > The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. > > > Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > > >=20 > > > Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for=20 > mysterious 'colony=20 > > > collapse' of bees > > >=20 > > > By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross > > >=20 > > > It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror=20 film.=20 > But some=20 > > > scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could=20 cause=20 > massive food=20 > > > shortages, as the world's harvests fail. > > >=20 > > > They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by=20 > mobile=20 > > > phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of=20 > the more bizarre=20 > > > mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt=20 > disappearance of=20 > > > the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers=20 > claimed that=20 > > > the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to=20 > continental Europe -=20 > > > was beginning to hit Britain as well. > > >=20 > > > The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with=20 > bees'=20 > > > navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the=20 > psychophysical=20 > > > sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species=20 from=20 > finding their way=20 > > > back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now=20 > evidence to back=20 > > > this up. > > >=20 > > > Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants=20 > suddenly=20 > > > disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature=20 workers,=20 > like so many=20 > > > apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but=20 > thought to die=20 > > > singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees=20 that=20 > normally raid=20 > > > the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to=20 go=20 > anywhere=20 > > > near the abandoned hives. > > >=20 > > > The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half=20 of=20 > all=20 > > > American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per=20 > cent of its=20 > > > commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East=20 > Coast. > > >=20 > > > CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal,=20 > Italy and=20 > > > Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee- > keepers,=20 > > > announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. > > >=20 > > > Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and=20 north- > west=20 > > > England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural=20 > Affairs insisted:=20 > > > "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." > > >=20 > > > The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the=20 world's=20 > crops=20 > > > depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that=20 if=20 > the bees=20 > > > disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". > > >=20 > > > No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites,=20 > pesticides,=20 > > > global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have=20 > drawbacks. > > >=20 > > > German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes=20 near=20 > power=20 > > > lines. > > >=20 > > > Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees=20 > refuse to=20 > > > return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr=20 > Jochen Kuhn, who=20 > > > carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible=20 > cause. > > >=20 > > > Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US=20 government=20 > and mobile=20 > > > phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties,=20 said: "I=20 > am convinced=20 > > > the possibility is real." > > >=20 > > > The case against handsets > > >=20 > > > Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing.=20 > But proof is=20 > > > still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such=20 > as cancer,=20 > > > take decades to show up. > > >=20 > > > Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an=20 > official=20 > > > Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more=20 than=20 > 10 years were=20 > > > 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side=20 as=20 > they held=20 > > > the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per=20 > capita in Finland=20 > > > than anywhere in the world.] > > >=20 > > > Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that=20 > radiation from=20 > > > mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's=20 > teenagers could=20 > > > go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they=20 > already were.] > > >=20 > > > Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that=20 men=20 > who use=20 > > > mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more=20 > prosaically, doctors=20 > > > have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI=20 from=20 > constant=20 > > > texting. > > >=20 > > > Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official=20 > inquiries, warned=20 > > > that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a=20 > series of safety=20 > > > recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ************************************** > > > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > > >=20 > >=20 > > ************************************** > > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --------------------------------- > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu May 03 18:27:17 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21691 invoked from network); 4 May 2007 01:26:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m44.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2007 01:26:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52102.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.105) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2007 01:26:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 69227 invoked by uid 60001); 4 May 2007 01:26:14 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Z1slsYgVM1kLtuhJaUWju9vF1Si4eF.h0SaudxTn Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52102.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 03 May 2007 18:26:13 PDT Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 18:26:13 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <962362.68930.qm@web52102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.105 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Cosmic Cookie X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=SkpllSv1adILDaa6IFrnAmT-88mH8EUFsU1H2g60rBEuDTcxfw X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40530 Cosmic Cookie In this World... and in the next LIFE IS A DO IT YOURSELF JOB. The Earth is a Gigantic Cosmic School in which we have enrolled to become Mature Beings. Time and Space are part of the Curriculum and our Progress is an Individual Process. We... the Great People of Earth... are the Creators of this Cosmic School and by living here we learn about the Details of our Creation. We are the Students and the Masters simultaneously. LIFE IS AN INFINITE SCHOOL WITHOUT DIPLOMAS nhcareyta wrote: Dear Cass Thank you for your response and interesting perspective. You write, "I would think that newcomers to Theosophy would rightly=20 say to themselves, "they cannot even agree on the teachings". Yes, you raise an eternal dilemma.=20 In pointing out the differing versions of theosophy, those of us who=20 think that Madame Blavatsky and her teachers shared the most=20 authentic, albeit necessarily imperfect version of Theosophy, create=20 not only the possibility of what you suggest for student/inquirers=20 but also run the risk of protesting too much and thereby creating an=20 allure for pseudo or neo-theosophy.=20 Moreover, we run the additional risks of generating antagonistic=20 energies which in themselves may potentially be counter-productive as=20 well as appearing as dogmatists ourselves. My decision to challenge obvious contradictions and deceptions in the=20 various literatures arises after observing the effects of pseudo/neo- theosophy on the mindsets of many people. Where Madame Blavatsky and=20 the Mahatmas' Theosophy encourages and facilitates an open, non- dogmatic and ever-inquiring mind to me, certain other later versions=20 do not. They are mostly authoritarian in style opening the way for=20 blind-minded obedience to their holy writ. This is not for me=20 the "new continent of thought" promoted by the Mahatmas and is not=20 that to which they were referring when Madame Blavatsky re-introduced=20 the term Theosophy to the modern age. It seems to me that so long as people blindly follow and accept=20 others' pronouncements, INCLUDING those of the Mahatmas and Madame=20 Blavatsky, we as a humanity will never fully think for ourselves and=20 will continue to think, speak and act largely from our often fear- based, habit, conditioned, reactive mindset produced and inherited=20 from skandhas, parents, school, peers, society and culture. Perhaps only when we truly liberate our minds will we see beyond=20 these distinctions and limitations and will indeed begin to develop a=20 nucleus of the Brotherhood (Unity) of humanity. Until then, many of=20 us will continue to follow like sheep whichever person, group or=20 organisation happens to tell us either that which we would like to=20 hear or how we would like things to be. In the meantime, please don't feel too "frustrated". We are each=20 doing what we think to be the right thing. Perhaps there is a place=20 for all honest and truthful avenues of approach? Thanks again Cass. Kind regards Nigel --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > No I don't thinks so Nigel, it keeps us grounded into intellectual=20 debate. I would think that newcomers to Theosophy would rightly say=20 to themselves, "they cannot even agree on the teachings". As far as=20 I am concerned HPB was the messenger chosen, not Leadbeater, not=20 Besant, not Bailey, so it is her teachings that I am loyal to.=20 Without HPB there would not have been a theosophical society. If=20 others choose to promote CWL et al, then I guess it will come down to=20 their motives. As I said, I think the time has passed when we can=20 sit around and muse about right or wrong teachings. >=20 > People in the world are truly living in fear of the unexpected,=20 especially with the doom and gloom predicted by the new agers and the=20 2012 apocolypstics. They need a sound, cohesive, reliable philosophy=20 that will assist them in whatever lies ahead for all of humanity.=20 Even if we can only change the fear-thinking of a few it will benefit=20 all.=20 >=20 > HPB herself predicted major changes in the world. We can smugly=20 sit back and take comfort in knowing that if we do not survive the=20 next 10 years we will have more opportunities. What about those poor=20 souls who are in spiritual limbo? >=20 > That's my views, I am not trying to push HPB down anyone's=20 throats, but provide an alternative viewpoint in relation to death=20 and dying. >=20 > Cheers > Cass >=20 > nhcareyta wrote: > Dear Cass > If I may add a comment to your posting to Leon. >=20 > Your write: >=20 > >We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 > >general public. >=20 > This is such an important statement and I (for what it's worth)=20 > commend you for your sentiment. Indeed, some of us are doing that=20 as=20 > much and as best as we can. >=20 > In so doing we must also challenge those who purport to be, but in=20 > some part are clearly not, representing her works. >=20 > When those misrepresentations and deceptions of "100 years ago" are=20 > still to this day put forward as representing her work, do we not=20 > need to clarify this for sake of theosophical inquirers and=20 students? >=20 > Regards > Nigel >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > > > Leon > > I am so glad you have brought up this issue. I get frustrated=20 > when only receive mail about who said what, who did what 100 years=20 > ago. It seems to me that the world is going quite mad at the moment=20 > and as theosophists we are still dallying with the founders. Is=20 this=20 > truly what HPB wanted when she gave us the Ancient Teachings? > >=20 > > We can only assist others if we get HPB's teachings out to the=20 > general public. I am busy on several forums which are curious about=20 > what she actually had to say. > >=20 > > When I see Theos Talk all I can think is about Barbra=20 > Streisand, "Talk amongst yourselves" > >=20 > > I think the time for study is over, it is now time for action.=20 > Now time to walk the walk. > >=20 > > Cass > >=20 > >=20 > > leonmaurer@ wrote: > > Rad, > >=20 > > Guess that's the way it has to be. One way or the other, the=20 planet=20 > someday=20 > > will have to be cleared of the bulk of its human population that=20 > keeps=20 > > increasing in greater and greater numbers to eventually reach a=20 > point -- which is=20 > > not too far off -- where the global ecoology can't support them=20 and=20 > their=20 > > infrastructures any longer.=20 > >=20 > > Besides, isn't it necessary to make room for the new cycle of the=20 > now=20 > > infiltrating sixth family race -- with a higher level of=20 > mental/moral (Buddhi=20 > > nature) development -- so as to continue the human evolution to=20 an=20 > even higher=20 > > level before the sixth subrace appears? (Or is it subrace and=20 root=20 > race?) I=20 > > have no trouble wrapping my mind around that aspect of=20 theosophical=20 > teachings...=20 > > Since the possibility of such round and race evolution it=20 > describes, is=20 > > perfectly consistent with the ABC model -- which sees evolution,=20 on=20 > all its levels,=20 > > and particularly the physical, much like the "morphic resonance"=20 > interaction=20 > > of hyperspace morphogenetic or "morphic" fields, as explained by=20 > Rupert=20 > > Sheldrake in his book "A New science of Life." > >=20 > > Both Blavatsky and I (among many others, I suspect) thought this=20 > culling=20 > > could be caused by a sudden geographic pole shift, or series of=20 > volcanic disasters=20 > > due to intelligent nature reflecting back mankind's accumulated=20 > evil=20 > > thoughts. Or, if it occurred as the result of human actions -- we=20 > could have=20 > > anticipated a global warming and massive floods, a worldwide=20 > pandemic, or a globally=20 > > catastrophic nuclear war.=20 > >=20 > > Who would have thought it could be the lowly bees that were=20 > destined (or=20 > > chosen) to do the work? They gave us our nourishment, and now,=20 they=20 > seem to be=20 > > taking away. > >=20 > > It's ironic... But looking at the way mankind's greed and=20 ignorance=20 > of their=20 > > true nature have done it to themselves, it seems quite=20 appropriate,=20 > don't you=20 > > think?=20 > >=20 > > Isn't the purpose of each of our lives, to learn the lessons that=20 > we need to=20 > > know to arrive at self realization and to achieve a "nucleus,"=20 then=20 > a seed,=20 > > and ultimately a tree -- as a universal brotherhood of all=20 mankind - > - so as to=20 > > continue its further evolution toward its ultimate godlike=20 nature -- > with each=20 > > of us a consciously aware part of it? Isn't that the ultimate=20 > reward for all=20 > > individual points of Mankind's consciousness on this globe who=20 > manage to=20 > > survive through the whole lifetime of the manvantara without=20 losing=20 > their=20 > > conscience or inner light, and perhaps ending up isolated in the=20 > world of dark matter?=20 > > So, what's lost, if much of the current world population is=20 starved=20 > out of=20 > > existence? Especially, since they are the one's who caused it.=20 > Doesn't=20 > > perfect justice in the form of karma, as you sow, so hall you=20 reap,=20 > rule the=20 > > world? And, aren't the lives of our descendents as important as=20 our=20 > present=20 > > lives? Especially, if such descendants could be part of the=20 > incoming higher=20 > > evolved mankind that we will ultimately be reborn into. Much food=20 > for thought=20 > > here, eh... Even for the skeptics -- who can't imagine or think=20 > about any=20 > > possibility of consciousness beyond their present material=20 > lifetimes.=20 > >=20 > > BTW, the theosophical origin of the bees and the ants, along with=20 > us -- as a=20 > > necessary support of the ecology that, in turn, supports the=20 > universal=20 > > consciousness expressed in Man -- might make sense if we assume=20 > that HPB was using a=20 > > metaphor, i.e., Moon as a substitute for Mother or primal matter,=20 > out of=20 > > whose bosom all life arises and evolves. She also taught that the=20 > physical moon=20 > > was simply the shell of the dead Earth left over from a previous=20 > > manifestation or Manvantara -- that was necessary to stay and=20 > encircle around so as to=20 > > help maintain the orbit of the earth, and support the circadian=20 > rhythms of all=20 > > life, as well as acting as the mirror to reflect the highest=20 > spiritual rays of=20 > > the Sun during sleep -- to regenerate the life energy used up=20 > during waking=20 > > hours. > >=20 > > As I see it, all of that is easily explained, scientifically, by=20 > analogy and=20 > > correspondence -- from the standpoint of the ABC field's initial=20 > radiation,=20 > > fractal involution and subsequent evolution -- based on the=20 second=20 > fundamental=20 > > principle of cyclic (harmonic) laws of electrodynamics... That=20 act=20 > in=20 > > conjunction with the (first principle) ineffable zero-point=20 origin=20 > of mother SPACE with=20 > > its abstract motion or spinergy, and the (third principle)=20 ultimate=20 > purpose=20 > > of evolution, supported by reincarnation and karma. > >=20 > > So, maybe the bees are really our saviors -- both in the=20 beginning=20 > and ending=20 > > of our lives on Earth.=20 > >=20 > > Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and perfectly in accord with the=20 > theosophical=20 > > teachings. > >=20 > > What do you think? > >=20 > > Len > > P.S. And that doesn't let me off the hook either... Since back in=20 > the early=20 > > seventies, I was entrapreneurially working on starting a=20 worldwide=20 > cellphone=20 > > empowered communication network. Was it my good karma to have=20 > failed in all=20 > > my previous enterprises leading to that one -- which also never=20 > could be=20 > > consummated due to my lack of sufficient personal wealth?=20 Although,=20 > there were=20 > > plenty of other such electronic business startups that made it=20 all=20 > the way to=20 > > the present morass of bee extermination, and ultimately, a goodly=20 > portion of the=20 > > human race... If that really is the cause, and not equally greed- > driven,=20 > > worldwide biochemical dispersion, global warming, etc. Either=20 > way... Same=20 > > difference. We did it to ourselves. And, by now, I think it's=20 much=20 > too late in=20 > > the game to reverse any of it. Somehow, however, it makes me=20 happy=20 > to have=20 > > been a technological business failure. >=20 > > In a message dated 5/2/07 10:02:51 AM, rpera@ writes: > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Well, > > > =C2=20 > > > Blavatsky said that only bees, ants and rice made it to Earth=20 > from the=20 > > > Moon. I could never wrap my head around that =E2=80=9Cfrom the=20 Moon=E2=80=9D=20 > stuff, but I have=20 > > > always acknowledged another import of her statement: that bees=20 > are ESSENTIAL=20 > > > to life on this planet. > > > =C2=20 > > > The web of life is SO fragile.=C2 We got along without cell- phones=20 > for long=20 > > > enough after cars=E2=80=A6 d=E2=80=99ya think we could give them up t= o save=20 > life as we know=20 > > > it?=C2 (Then again, perhaps it is that very thing, =E2=80=9Clife as w= e=20 > know it=E2=80=9D that=20 > > > should not be saved=E2=80=A6) Either way, according to Einstein (one= =20 of=20 > your mentors) we > > > =E2=80=99ve only got a few years left=E2=80=A6 Who would=E2=80=99a th= unk it would=20 > happen this way?=C2=20 > > > Oh, I=E2=80=99m sure a few people did.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > And there is a certain radical beauty about it: no =E2=80=9Cterrorist= =20 > threat=E2=80=9D, not=20 > > > some =E2=80=9Cforeign dictator=E2=80=9D, no individual =E2=80=9Cevil = man=E2=80=9D, but=20 > just us =E2=80" every one=20 > > > of us phone-carrying humans is to blame =E2=80" innocently, and yet=20 > collectively.=C2=20 > > > We=E2=80=99ve =E2=80=9Ctechnologicized=E2=80=9D ourselves into oblivi= on. That=E2=80=99s=20 > been the=20 > > > overriding =E2=80=9Cterror vision=E2=80=9D all along hasn=E2=80=99t i= t, that=20 we=E2=80=99d=20 > do ourselves in?=C2 Hey, we=20 > > > were right!=C2 I mean wrong=E2=80=A6 I mean right about being wrong.= =C2=20 > Wrong-headed,=20 > > > that is.=C2 Irresponsible, un-steward-like, rushing to permeate=20 > the planet with=20 > > > deadly, invisible, odorless micro-waves without first testing=20 ALL=20 > of the=20 > > > possible fall-out.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > Why? > > > =C2=20 > > > Greed first, then convenience. Greed on the part of mega-corps=20 > who saw how=20 > > > marketing cell-phones to everyone and their sister would yield=20 > unprecedented=20 > > > profit, and our notion of convenience: never having to stop to=20 > make a phone=20 > > > call, and the seduction of the self-importance that luxury=20 > engenders.=C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > What a price to pay for it! > > > =C2=20 > > > Oh well.=C2 It=E2=80=99ll be interesting to see just how selfish huma= ns=20 > are when, in=20 > > > a very short amount of time we=E2=80=99re all squarely faced with=20 > letting go of=20 > > > something we considered =E2=80=9CProgress=E2=80=9D but is in the end = the=20 > opposite! > > > =C2=20 > > > Its been a fun ride (sorta-kinda), > > > Radames Pera > > > =C2=20 > > > =C2=20 > > >=20 > > > =C2=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: LeonMaurer@ [mailto:LeonMaurer@] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:47 PM > > > To: undisclosed-recipients: > > > Subject: Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > > > =C2=20 > > > The Independent newspaper (London), 15 April 2007. > > > Are mobile phones wiping out our bees? > > >=20 > > > Scientists claim radiation from handsets are to blame for=20 > mysterious 'colony=20 > > > collapse' of bees > > >=20 > > > By Geoffrey Lean and Harriet Shawcross > > >=20 > > > It seems like the plot of a particularly far-fetched horror=20 film.=20 > But some=20 > > > scientists suggest that our love of the mobile phone could=20 cause=20 > massive food=20 > > > shortages, as the world's harvests fail. > > >=20 > > > They are putting forward the theory that radiation given off by=20 > mobile=20 > > > phones and other hi-tech gadgets is a possible answer to one of=20 > the more bizarre=20 > > > mysteries ever to happen in the natural world - the abrupt=20 > disappearance of=20 > > > the bees that pollinate crops. Late last week, some bee-keepers=20 > claimed that=20 > > > the phenomenon - which started in the US, then spread to=20 > continental Europe -=20 > > > was beginning to hit Britain as well. > > >=20 > > > The theory is that radiation from mobile phones interferes with=20 > bees'=20 > > > navigation systems [cf. the honeybee 'waggle' dance in the=20 > psychophysical=20 > > > sixth-dimension], preventing the famously homeloving species=20 from=20 > finding their way=20 > > > back to their hives. Improbable as it may seem, there is now=20 > evidence to back=20 > > > this up. > > >=20 > > > Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) occurs when a hive's inhabitants=20 > suddenly=20 > > > disappear, leaving only queens, eggs and a few immature=20 workers,=20 > like so many=20 > > > apian Mary Celestes. The vanished bees are never found, but=20 > thought to die=20 > > > singly far from home. The parasites, wildlife and other bees=20 that=20 > normally raid=20 > > > the honey and pollen left behind when a colony dies, refuse to=20 go=20 > anywhere=20 > > > near the abandoned hives. > > >=20 > > > The alarm was first sounded last autumn, but has now hit half=20 of=20 > all=20 > > > American states. The West Coast is thought to have lost 60 per=20 > cent of its=20 > > > commercial bee population, with 70 per cent missing on the East=20 > Coast. > > >=20 > > > CCD has since spread to Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal,=20 > Italy and=20 > > > Greece. And last week John Chapple, one of London's biggest bee- > keepers,=20 > > > announced that 23 of his 40 hives have been abruptly abandoned. > > >=20 > > > Other apiarists have recorded losses in Scotland, Wales and=20 north- > west=20 > > > England, but the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural=20 > Affairs insisted:=20 > > > "There is absolutely no evidence of CCD in the UK." > > >=20 > > > The implications of the spread are alarming. Most of the=20 world's=20 > crops=20 > > > depend on pollination by bees. Albert Einstein once said that=20 if=20 > the bees=20 > > > disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left". > > >=20 > > > No one knows why it is happening. Theories involving mites,=20 > pesticides,=20 > > > global warming and GM crops have been proposed, but all have=20 > drawbacks. > > >=20 > > > German research has long shown that bees' behaviour changes=20 near=20 > power=20 > > > lines. > > >=20 > > > Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees=20 > refuse to=20 > > > return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr=20 > Jochen Kuhn, who=20 > > > carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible=20 > cause. > > >=20 > > > Dr George Carlo, who headed a massive study by the US=20 government=20 > and mobile=20 > > > phone industry of hazards from mobiles in the Nineties,=20 said: "I=20 > am convinced=20 > > > the possibility is real." > > >=20 > > > The case against handsets > > >=20 > > > Evidence of dangers to people from mobile phones is increasing.=20 > But proof is=20 > > > still lacking, largely because many of the biggest perils, such=20 > as cancer,=20 > > > take decades to show up. > > >=20 > > > Most research on cancer has so far proved inconclusive. But an=20 > official=20 > > > Finnish study found that people who used the phones for more=20 than=20 > 10 years were=20 > > > 40 per cent more likely to get a brain tumour on the same side=20 as=20 > they held=20 > > > the handset. [BEB: from memory, there are more handsets per=20 > capita in Finland=20 > > > than anywhere in the world.] > > >=20 > > > Equally alarming, blue-chip Swedish research revealed that=20 > radiation from=20 > > > mobile phones killed off brain cells, suggesting that today's=20 > teenagers could=20 > > > go senile in the prime of their lives. [BEB: I thought they=20 > already were.] > > >=20 > > > Studies in India and the US have raised the possibility that=20 men=20 > who use=20 > > > mobile phones heavily have reduced sperm counts. And, more=20 > prosaically, doctors=20 > > > have identified the condition of "text thumb", a form of RSI=20 from=20 > constant=20 > > > texting. > > >=20 > > > Professor Sir William Stewart, who has headed two official=20 > inquiries, warned=20 > > > that children under eight should not use mobiles and made a=20 > series of safety=20 > > > recommendations, largely ignored by ministers. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ************************************** > > > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > > >=20 > >=20 > > ************************************** > > See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --------------------------------- > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu May 03 18:57:10 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13632 invoked from network); 4 May 2007 01:55:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2007 01:55:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2007 01:55:08 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id r.cc5.109e4676 (43932); Thu, 3 May 2007 21:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 21:54:26 EDT To: MindBrain@yahoogroups.com, crush811@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 310 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.144.208 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] Open Question. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972; y=S0WyDzYacZy49wcwUDdgHHjV1Pi4_J2jLZ_NgSXnsQdiFvEOsO0 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40531 In a message dated 4/19/07 8:40:31 PM, jfnewell7@yahoo.com writes: >=20 >=20 > Chris Lofting wrote: Self-referencing does = it.=20 > The whole is encoded in all parts >=20 > Jim:::The problem with that is that it turns a simple homogeneous part in= to=20 > a complex structure - as how else could the whole be encoded in the part.= So=20 > instead of having a whole with a number of homogeneous parts, we have a m= ass=20 > of many tiny complex structures. Then, I suppose that creates a new whole= =20 > which is more complex than the original whole, and that new more complex = whole=20 > must now be encoded into each of the parts of the formerly homogeneous pa= rts=20 > (before the first encoding) and so forth, with the need to always encode = the=20 > new whole into all the parts. >=20 > =A0Jim >=20 [LM] The problem only exists if we base our scientific reasoning on the=20 assumption that physical matter is the primary root of all existence... Whe= n, in=20 actuality, all such matter is composed of fundamental (i.e., non dimensiona= l,=20 infinitely energetic and infinitely divisible/extensible) absolute Mother S= PACE=20 in various modes of linear motion. Therefore, nothing is separate from=20 anything else, and separate parts are simply illusory aspects (as material = objects=20 or radiant fields) of an infinite hologram extending throughout all of that= =20 primal SPACE. To understand this; Refer to the primal "singularity" of that SPACE=20 underlying this whole material universe pictured as; Pure "spin" -- on at l= east three=20 axis in both clockwise and counterclockwise circular (non linear) motion --= at=20 infinite angular momentum around a zero-point of absolute stasis (the root = of=20 eternal consciousness)... Which, after "awakening" (big bang) at the primal= =20 beginning -- radiates (as a dual polarity) in an endless spirally vortical= =20 Mobius loop, and then (with the central point rotating on all three perpend= icular=20 axes) fractally involves spherically, in a continuous harmonic series of=20 coenergetic (electrodynamic) fields of descending orders of frequency energ= y...=20 That, after the initial three iterations (logos), becomes the metric space = time=20 continuum.=20=20=20 After this physical space-tme's initial inflation and breaking of symmetry,= =20 fundamental particles appear (on the surfaces of its lowest order fractally= =20 involved coenergetic fields) as standing waves of varying frequency-energie= s,=20 each having analogous fractally involved fields spirally and vortically=20 encircling their originating centers of zero-point SPACE. (We might look = at these=20 fields as the higher order harmonics and sub harmonics, etc., of the fundam= ental=20 particle-wave) These fundamental particles (quark's) then coalesce into=20 quantum particles or fermions, that combine into atoms, then molecules -- t= o=20 eventually evolve into every physical form though all the kingdoms of natur= e,=20 mineral, vegetable and animal, up to the ultimate peak of organic sentient = mind=20 beings -- Mankind... Who now can contemplate the true nature of all being..= .=20 Hopefully, without getting sidetracked along the way by the illusions of se= nsory=20 observations and preconceived matter-only notions, further blind-sided by t= he=20 technological advances of material science and its mass media, not to menti= on=20 the ubiquitousness of literacy and its ability to misinform as well as info= rm.=20 ;-)=20 Since the original Spinergy (and all its reflected zero-points of=20 configuration space-time) contains the holographic interference patterned a= rchetypal=20 memories of all the Cosmos' previous periods of manifestation, this primal= =20 information remains encoded in all fractally descending coenergetic fields.= Thus,=20 each part of any phenomenal form of mass-energy (E/M=3D [Lv/t]^2) is compos= ed of=20 that infinitely divisible space, and is, in effect, nothing more than a ser= ies=20 of wave interference patterned holograms representing every part of any=20 relatively stable composite form of matter.=20=20=20 It follows that every zero-point in the 3-D metric space of this universe=20 must contain, in its fractally involved higher order hyperspace fields of=20 universal archetypal memory, the relatively infinitely complex hologram of = the entire=20 cosmos along with all its parts. Making the entire Cosmos an infinitely=20 complex hologram, which has infinitely fine resolution at its initial highe= st=20 energy order triune monadic field on the plane of pure ideation (that is mi= rrored=20 in the primal zero-point spinergy of Mother or ground SPACE. Is this why= =20 the Master yogi's claim that -- when consciousness can arrive at an absolut= ely=20 still and silent condition after mind has been emptied of all thought image= s,=20 and rests in that state of pure Samadhi or pure contemplative concentration= --=20 all universal knowledge (contained, apparently, in that highest order field= of=20 consciousness reflecting the primal spinergy) can be accessed and retrieved= =20 at will? This nature of fundamental holographic reality, apparently encoded right fr= om=20 the beginning in the zero-point spinergy source of each fractally involved= =20 coenergetic field, appears to be the basis of an electrodynamic (magnetic)= =20 holographic matrix that accounts for the DNA molecule being replicated in e= very=20 cell of each organic form of life. And, further, seems to be the basis of= all,=20 so far unexplained, aspects of nature -- besides mind images, memory storag= e,=20 etc. -- such as psychic phenomena, altered states of consciousness, dreams,= =20 etc., as well as all the paradoxes, anomalies, and inconsistencies between= =20 classical, relativity and quantum physics... Such scientific theories being= =20 apparently correct only within their limited physical micro or macro realms= capable=20 of being mathematically described, and experimentally or observationally=20 verified. Leon ************************************** See what's free at=20 http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu May 03 18:59:14 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85797 invoked from network); 4 May 2007 01:58:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2007 01:58:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.112) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2007 01:58:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 53883 invoked by uid 60001); 4 May 2007 01:58:37 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: u9n8zisVM1l90fSzkTjO21QvmPKwSb9kNZTK8iFzU8uC9uZsaaAz6UXaMnCa7iJ8lWA7p2ZuQG0xUqwGTmZuu57S7TWSrtq8zTsGq4yVP7jMsIAippwFB2v_HmNbeaIkb7Opf0J0d3p94oze2bUgGPRjZMjMy7nrknwUoPaHgg-- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 03 May 2007 18:58:37 PDT Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 18:58:37 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <867641.52880.qm@web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.112 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World H.P.B. did NOT hesitate to point out Pseudo-Theosophy.... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=F-JxCg2UFw4dcGBy5gVW5zePEYnhKei_hu1rmEJRDsLi1PfeYQ X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40532 Daniel, if HPB couldn't do it it, what makes you think we can? Cass danielhcaldwell wrote: H.P.Blavatsky did NOT hesitate to point out Pseudo-Theosophy. Notice what HPB wrote: "=85If the 'false prophets of Theosophy' are to be left untouched, the true prophets will be very soon--as they have already been--confused with the false. It is nigh time to winnow our corn and cast away the chaff." "=85 We do not believe in allowing the presence of sham elements in Theosophy, because of the fear, forsooth, that if even 'a false element in the faith' is ridiculed, the latter 'is apt to shake the confidence' in the whole=85." STRONG WORDS, no doubt. And elsewhere HPB wrote: "...The great evil of the whole thing is, not that the truths of Theosophy are adopted by these blind teachers, for we should gladly welcome any spread, by whatever means, of ideals so powerful to wean the world from its dire materialism - but that they are so interwoven with mis-statements and absurdities that the wheat cannot be winnowed from the chaff, and ridicule, if not worse, is brought to bear upon. . . [the Theosophical] movement. . . ." Or take these words of H.P.B: "Great are the desecrations to which the names of two of the Masters have been subjected. There is hardly a medium who has not claimed to have seen them. Every bogus swindling Society, for commercial purposes, now claims to be guided and directed by 'Masters' often supposed to be far higher than ours!...." The Key to Theosophy, original edition, p. 301. "The publication of many of the facts herein stated has been rendered necessary by the wild and fanciful speculation in which many Theosophists and students of mysticism have indulged...." The Secret Doctrine, original edition, Vol. I, p. viii. "... A new and rapidly growing danger...is threatening...the spread of the pure Esoteric Philosophy and knowledge....I allude to those charlatanesque imitations of Occultism and Theosophy....By pandering to the prejudices of people, and especially by adopting the false ideas of a personal God and a personal, carnalized Saviour, as the groundwork of their teaching, the leaders of this 'swindle' (for such it is) are endeavoring to draw men to them and in particular to turn Theosophists from the true path." E.S. Instruction No. I., 1890 edition, p. 2. Now if all of this was happening during the years when HPB wrote the above statements, one should not be surprised if such claims, etc. CONTINUED to happen after she died when she would not be available to warn students. In fact, from a study of the decades following HPB's death, one can see that such claims, etc. grew and grew and GREW.... Also consider the warnings given by H.P.B.'s Teachers. See a selection of some of these at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/psychicversusinitiate.htm And more material from H.P.B's pen on the above subject matter can be found at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/onpseudotheosophy.htm http://blavatskyarchives.com/latermessengers.htm http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophicaltraditions.htm If one believes in the bonafides of HPB and her Masters and of their teachings, etc.,, then I would suggest that their words on this particular topic are worthy of careful consideration and serious discussion. Daniel http://hpb.cc =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu May 03 19:12:14 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95035 invoked from network); 4 May 2007 02:09:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2007 02:09:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52104.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.107) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2007 02:09:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 42250 invoked by uid 60001); 4 May 2007 02:09:28 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: HglqNdcVM1lOIoS7joyCSGPzZy_1NzOhPCOlS_fADmQC0suGhFqkC1qxjiedgZdt_eTlQoTGJz3RPAN7VEUorj6lJhv7BNWU4Np9WB83udQNoF4kA4gkl71qjJwHsXZggrpACpLsvD4TQjhzqsEMG59xmw-- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52104.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 03 May 2007 19:09:27 PDT Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 19:09:27 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <93988.41935.qm@web52104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.107 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: What is happening in the real world X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=M_Y_REbNhhhtz5PAxAwr8Pwyiqu24UKHj9up1OxpuCPIMS38dw X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40533 Any opinions on this? A Singularity in Time The pace of life is foreve= r speeding up. Technological breakthroughs spread through society in years = rather than centuries. Calculations that would have taken decades are now m= ade in minutes. Communication that used to take months happens in seconds. = In almost every area of life, change is occurring faster and faster.=20 Yet, this acceleration is not confined to modern times. Medieval architec= ture and agriculture, for instance, varied very little over the period of a= century. But even then change occurred much faster than it did in prehisto= ric times. Stone Age tools remained unchanged for thousands of years.=20 Nor is this quickening confined to humanity; it is a pattern that stretch= es back to the dawn of life on Earth. The first simple lifeforms evolved ne= arly four billion years ago. Multicellular life appeared a billion or so ye= ars ago. Vertebrates with central nervous systems, several hundred million = years ago. Mammals appeared tens of millions of years ago. The first homini= ds stood on the planet a couple of million years ago; homo sapiens, a few h= undred thousand years ago. Language and tool-use emerged tens of thousands = of years ago. Civilization, the movement into towns and cities, started a f= ew thousand years ago. The Industrial Revolution began three centuries ago.= Finally, the Information Revolution is but a few decades old. Why Does Evolution Accelerate? The reason for this acceleration is that = each new development is, so to speak, standing on the shoulders of what has= come before. A good example is the advent of sexual reproduction some 1.5 = billion years ago. Until that time cells, reproduced by splitting into two,= each of the new =93sisters=94 being exact clones of the original. With sex= ual reproduction, two cells came together, shared genetic information and p= roduced offspring containing a combination of their genes. it no longer too= k many generations for one genetic difference to arise. Differences now occ= urred in every generation, speeding evolution a thousandfold. A more recent example is the transition from the Industrial Age to the In= formation Age. When it came to manufacturing computers, we did not need to = reinvent factories or global distribution systems; that expertise had alrea= dy been gained. We had simply to apply it to the production of computers. T= hus the Information Revolution established itself much faster.=20 This pattern is set to continue in the future=97each new phase requiring = a fraction of the time required in the previous phase. In the future, we mi= ght expect the same amount of change we've seen in the last twenty years ta= ke place in years rather than decades.=20 It is difficult, therefore, to predict what the world will be like in ten= or twenty years. Two hundred years ago no one predicted we would have tele= phones or movies, let alone cell phones or the Internet. Just twenty years = ago, very few of us had any notion of the WorldWide Web, or of how dramatic= ally it would change our lives. Similarly, who knows what new breakthroughs= or developments will be transforming our lives ten years from now? Approaching a Singularity So where is all this leading? Some people thin= k we are headed toward what is called a =93singularity.=94 This is the term= that mathematicians give to a point when an equations breaks down and ceas= es to have any useful meaning. The rules change. Something completely diffe= rent happens. A simple example of a singularity occurs if you try to divide a number by= zero. If you divide by smaller and smaller numbers, the results will be la= rger and larger numbers. But if you divide something by zero you get infini= ty, which is not a number in the everyday sense. The equation has broken do= wn.=20 The idea that there might be a singularity in human development was first= suggested by the mathematician Vernor Vinge, and subsequently by others, m= ost notably Ray Kurzweil in his book The Singularity Is Near. They argue th= at if computing power keeps doubling every eighteen months, as it has done = for the last fifty years, then sometime in the 2020s there will be computer= s that can equal the performance of the human brain. From there, it is only= a small step to a computer that can surpass the human brain. There would t= hen be little point in our designing future computers; ultra-intelligent ma= chines would be able to design better ones, and do so faster.=20 What happens then is a big question. Some propose that humans would becom= e obsolete; machines would become the vanguard of evolution. Others think t= here would be a merging of human and machine intelligence=97downloading our= minds into computers, perhaps. The only thing we can confidently predict i= s that this would be a complete break from the patterns of the past. Evolut= ion would have moved into a radically new realm. But this transition, as major as it would be, would not yet be true singu= larity in the mathematical sense. Evolution=97whether human, machine, or a = synthesis of the two=97would continue at an ever-increasing pace. Developme= nt timescales would continue to shorten, from decades to years, to months, = to days. Before long, they would approach zero. The rate of change would th= en become infinite. We would have reached a true mathematical singularity.= =20 Timewave Zero and 2012 The idea that humanity is heading towards a point= of infinitely rapid change was explored by Terence McKenna in his book The= Invisible Landscape. He developed a mathematical fractal function, which h= e called the "timewave", that appeared to match the overall rate of ingress= ion of novelty in the world. (=93Ingression of novelty=94 is a term coined = by the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead to denote new forms or developmen= ts coming into existence). This timewave is not a smooth curve, but one tha= t has peaks and troughs corresponding to the peaks and troughs of the rate = of ingression of novelty across human history. The most significant characteristic of McKenna's timewave is that its sha= pe repeats itself, but over shorter and shorter intervals of time. The curv= e shows a surge in novelty around 500 BC, when Lao Tsu, Plato, Zoroaster, B= uddha, and others were exerting a major influence on the millennia to come.= The repeating nature of McKenna's timewave shows the same pattern occurrin= g in the late 1960s, where it happened sixty-four times faster. In 2010, th= e pattern repeats again, sixty-four times faster still. And then, in 2012, = sixty-four times faster still. The timescale is compressed from months to w= eeks, to days, tending very rapidly toward zero: a point McKenna called =93= Timewave Zero.=94 But when precisely is this date? McKenna experimented with sliding his cu= rve up and down history to look for a best fit. Eventually, he chose Decemb= er 22, 2012. At the time, he did not know that the Mayan Calendar also ende= d its 5,124 year cycle one day earlier. McKenna himself was not overly atta= ched to the date; he confided that he would be intrigued, come 2012, to see= whether his conjectures about infinite novelty would indeed prove correct.= Sadly, he passed away in 2000. Personally, I am not so concerned with what actually will or will not hap= pen on that precise date of December 21, 2012. Indeed, almost every predict= ion ever made that related to a specific date failed to materialize. I am m= ore interested in where this accelerating pattern may be taking us, and its= mind-boggling implications=97whether they occur in 2012, or some other tim= e.=20 Limits to Change? As explored in my 1992 book The White Hole in Time (re= vised as Waking Up in Time), if the ever-accelerating pace of change contin= ues, we are not going to be evolving for eons into the future. We could see= the whole of our future evolution=97as much development as we can conceive= of, and more=97compressed into a very short time. Within a few generations= , perhaps within our own lifetimes, we could reach the end of our evolution= ary journey. It is often argued that this will never happen because there are limits t= o the rate of change. Any growth will eventually reach a plateau, resulting= not in an ever-steeper curve, but one that bends over into an S-shape. Population growth is a good example. For thousands of years the human pop= ulation has been growing, and growing faster and faster. A thousand years a= go, the world's population numbered around 310 million. This number had dou= bled by 1600. In 1800, it was approaching one billion, and the doubling tim= e was down to 150 years. By 1960, it had reached four billion, with a doubl= ing time of only thirty years. Since then, however, population growth has s= lowed; the curve has begun to bend over. If current trends continue the hum= an population will probably stabilize between 10 and 12 billion. Similar S-curves can be found in just about every area of development. Fo= r example, the production of steam locomotives increased rapidly during the= first century of the Industrial Revolution, then tapered off in the mid-tw= entieth century as diesel and electric power became more dominant. Or, cons= ider the growth of high-speed Internet connections in the USA. The rate of = new connections grew rapidly in the first years of this century, and by 200= 5 over half of all homes had a high-speed connection. Now, as the saturatio= n point approaches, the rate of growth of new connections has slowed. However, when we talk about a speeding up of the overall rate of change, = we are not talking of any particular S-curve, but the rate at which success= ive S-curves stack up. It took population growth thousands of years to reac= h its turning point. The Industrial Revolution took two hundred years. High= -speed Internet connections=97less than a decade. So the question is not wh= ether any particular growth keeps increasing forever, but whether there is = a limit to the rate of ingression of novelty=97whatever its medium at any p= articular time. Evolving Intelligence One recurring pattern that underlies evolution is = an increasing complexity in the processing of information. DNA code is an i= nformation database, built up over eons. Sexual reproduction was an evoluti= onary breakthrough in information processing. So was the development of sen= ses, and later, the central nervous system. The advent of human beings brou= ght another major development in information processing=97symbolic language= =97allowing us to share our thoughts and experiences with one another. Over= the years, human breakthroughs in information technology=97writing, printi= ng, telephony, radio, television, computing, and the Internet=97have consis= tently increased our ability to gather, process, organize and utilize infor= mation.=20 Organization and utilization of information is the essence of intelligenc= e. We usually think of intelligence primarily in human terms, and occasiona= lly in other animals. But intelligence in its broadest sense has been evolv= ing for billions of years. What is happening today with our own Information= Revolution is but the latest phase of a process that has been going on sin= ce the birth of the universe. So the question of whether there is a limit to the speed of evolution doe= s not concern the limits of any particular phase of evolution; it is whethe= r there is a limit to the rate of evolution of intelligence=97whatever form= it may take. As far as I can see, there is none. Beyond the Information Age The growth of human information technologies = is taking us rapidly toward a time when all human knowledge will be instant= ly available to anyone on the planet, in any medium. This will be a fully f= unctional global brain in which the information technologies of television,= telephone, and WorldWide Web will be seamlessly integrated. The world's au= dio and video archives will be as easily accessible as text and images are = today. Search engines will learn from their interactions with people, becom= ing increasingly sophisticated in their responses. We will be linked into a= n emerging global mind. At this point, the growth rate of human knowledge will be reaching its ow= n maximum. It too will begin to turn into an S-curve. But knowledge is not = the end-point of the evolution of intelligence. Many have pointed to a hier= archy of data, information, knowledge, and wisdom. Information can be defin= ed as the patterns extracted from raw data. Knowledge is the generalization= of information, applying findings to other situations. Wisdom determines h= ow that knowledge is used. It involves discernment and evaluation: Is this = decision for the better or worse? Will it help or hinder our future well-be= ing?=20 At present, humanity has vast amounts of knowledge, but still very little= wisdom. Without developing wisdom, it is most unlikely we will avoid catas= trophe. As the inventor-philosopher, Buckminster Fuller repeatedly emphasiz= ed, we are facing our final evolutionary exam. Is the human species fit to = survive? Can we wake up sufficiently so that we can use our prodigious powe= rs for the good of all, and for that of many generations to come? A Half-Awake Species Symbolic language led to another significant step i= n human intelligence. We used language not only to communicate with each ot= her, but also within our own minds, i.e. verbal thinking. With this power w= e could reflect upon our experiences and plan our future. In addition, we c= ould reflect upon the fact that we were aware. We became conscious of consc= iousness itself. We began to wake up to our own inner worlds. At present however, we are only half-awake to who and what we really are.= Becoming aware of our own selves brought with it a sense of an individual = "I" observing the world and initiating our actions. But just what is this s= elf? It seems so obvious that it is there, but, as many have discovered, it= is hard to define it or pin it down.=20 When asked =93Who are you?=94 most of us will respond with the various th= ings we identify with=97our name, beliefs, occupation, education, roles, ge= nder, social status, personality, interests. We derive a sense of identity = from what we have or do in the world, with our history, and our circumstanc= es. But any such derived identity is conditional, and thus forever vulnerab= le. It is continually at the mercy of circumstances, and before long we nee= d to defend or reassert our fragile sense of self. Our basic survival progr= amming, designed to ensure our physical survival, is usurped for our psycho= logical survival, leading to many unnecessary and often dysfunctional behav= iors. In addition, we are only half-awake to our deeper needs and how to attain= them. Most of us would like to avoid pain and suffering, and find greater = peace and happiness, but we believe that how we feel inside depends on exte= rnal circumstances. This is true in some cases, for example. if we are suff= ering because we are cold or hungry. In the modern world, most of us can fu= lfill these demands very easily. The flick of a switch or a trip to the sto= re usually suffices. But we apply the same thinking to everything else in l= ife. We believe that if we could just get enough of the right things or exp= eriences we would finally be happy. This is the root of human greed, our lo= ve of money, our need to control events (and other people); it is the cause= of much of our fear and anxiety, we worry whether events are going to be t= he way we think they should be if we are to be happy. This thinking is also= at the heart of the many ways we mistreat, and often abuse, our planetary = home.=20 The global crisis we are now facing is, at its root, a crisis of consciou= sness=97a crisis born of the fact that we have prodigious technological pow= ers, but still remain half-awake. We need to awaken to who we are and what = we really want. Prophets of Wisdom Throughout human history there have been individuals = who appear to have become fully awake. These are the enlightened ones=97the= mystics, seers, saints, rishis, roshis, and lamas who in one way or anothe= r have discovered for themselves the true nature of consciousness. Although= their discoveries have been expressed in different ways, depending on the = dominant worldview of their time, the essential message remains remarkably = consistent. Aldous Huxley called this the =93perennial philosophy,=94 the t= imeless wisdom that has been rediscovered again and again through the ages.= =20 The enlightened ones have realized the illusory nature of the concept of = a unique individual self. When we examine our experience closely, delving d= eep into the nature of what we call =93I,=94 we find that there is nothing = there=97no thing that is. This sense of =93I-ness=94 that we all know so we= ll, and which has been with us all our lives, is just our sense of being. I= t is awareness itself=97so familiar, yet completely intangible. Thus, it ca= nnot be "known" in the ordinary sense. Not realizing this, we seek to give = our sense of self some form, some substance. We dress it up in various psyc= hological clothes=97all the things we think we are, or would like to think = we are. This is the reverse of the emperor having no clothes. With true sel= f-awareness, one discovers there are lots of clothes, but no emperor inside= them. Another consistent realization of the awakened ones is that the essential= nature of mind, uncluttered by worry and chatter, is one of deep ease, joy= , and love. Not recognizing this, most of us look to the world around us to= provide us with peace and happiness. But, despite all the messages from ma= rketing and advertising industries, things or events do not bring happiness= . On the contrary, our minds are so full of scheming, planning, and worryin= g whether or not we will get what we think will make us happy, we seldom ex= perience the peace and ease that lie at our core.=20 When we awaken to our true nature, we are freed from a dependence on the = external world both for our sense of self and our inner well-being. We beco= me free to act with more intelligence and compassion, attending to the need= s of the situation at hand rather than the needs of the ego. We can access = the wisdom that lies deep within us all. This is the next step in evolution= of intelligence: the transition from amassing knowledge to developing wisd= om.=20 The Dawning of a Wisdom Age Because each new phase of evolving intellige= nce takes place in a fraction of the time of the previous phase, we can exp= ect the dawning of a Wisdom Age to take place in years rather than decades.= It will be standing on the shoulders of the Information Age. Never before have we been able to access so much spiritual wisdom. A cent= ury ago, the only spiritual tradition available to most people was the one = that was indigenous to their own culture. Moreover, with rare exceptions, t= hey did not have the benefit of learning from a truly enlightened being. To= day, we can access teachings from many different traditions and cultures, d= iscover their common underlying truths, and translate that perennial philos= ophy into the language and terms of our own time. Something completely new = is emerging: a single spiritual teaching that is a distillation of the worl= d's wisdom traditions. This is coalescing and being disseminated globally t= hrough a variety of information technologies: books, tapes, Web pages, onli= ne forums, and Internet broadcasts. At the same time, a growing number of people are becoming fully awake, an= d proving themselves to be excellent teachers. Many are using the Internet = to share their wisdom and help awaken others. Instruction in practices that= facilitate awakening are appearing online, and could become much more soph= isticated. It may even turn out that darshan, the Indian word for a direct = transfer of higher consciousness, can be transmitted via the net. Awakening is often a sudden event. Once a person is ready=97the necessary= groundwork done, the circumstances propitious=97the shift can happen more = or less instantaneously. It's possible that research into the neurological = correlates of spiritual awakening will lead us to methods of promoting the = process directly. There will likely be other unforeseen discoveries or deve= lopments that help us free our minds. Whatever they may be, the more we lea= rn how to facilitate a shift in consciousness, the faster it will happen.=20 As this becomes a mainstream phenomenon, humanity will relate to the worl= d in wiser, more compassionate ways. Problems would still exist. Global war= ming would not suddenly cease; pollution would not evaporate; extinct speci= es would not suddenly return. On the other hand, we might then have at our = disposal new technologies that could help us solve the problems we have cre= ated. We can only guess at the ways in which this marriage of high technolo= gy and higher consciousness would play out. We have not been there before. Beyond Wisdom Would this be the endpoint of our evolution? Or would ther= e follow yet another turn of the spiral?=20 Many of the world's mystical traditions maintain that the liberation of t= he mind from its attachments is only the first of step of inner awakening. = More universal experiences of mind, and fundamentally different perspective= s of reality, lie beyond. Advanced adepts claim that the world of matter is not real, and that spac= e and time are not the ultimate reality. Interestingly, this view is in acc= ord with modern physics' explorations into the nature of physical reality. = Whenever we try to pin down the essence of matter, it eludes us. It seems n= othing is there=97that is, nothing of any material substance. Nor are space= and time absolutes, as we once thought. They are part of a more fundamenta= l reality, the spacetime continuum.=20 Perhaps those adepts have already discovered the ultimate nature of reali= ty=97not through digging deeper into its external forms, but through a pene= trating exploration of inner space. If so, our collective destiny may be pr= ecisely this freedom from the illusion of materiality, from the illusion th= at we exist in space and time.=20 Let's not be too quick to rule out that possibility, merely on the basis = that it is so divorced from our current reality. If you had told Mozart tha= t in the future people would own tiny boxes, made from some strange materia= l that was neither wood nor metal, with two strings coming out of the box, = that when placed in their ears, would enable them to hear any of his compos= itions as clearly as if they were in a room with an orchestra, would he hav= e believed you? On the contrary, he would probably have thought you mad. The Omega Point One person who believed our destiny was indeed a collect= ive spiritual awakening, was the French priest and paleontologist, Pierre T= eilhard de Chardin. Exploring the evolutionary trends towards greater compl= exity, connectivity, and consciousness, he argued that humanity was moving = towards an Omega Point=97the final end and goal of evolution. He believed that the universe had been through several major stages of ev= olution, starting with what he called "cosmogenesis,=94 the birth of the "c= osmosphere"; the Universe. Next was geogenesis, the birth of the Earth (the= geosphere). Following that, "biogenesis", the birth of life (the biosphere= ). With human beings, there came "noogenesis" and the "noosphere", the sphe= re of thought. He predicted that the final stage, the one that led to the O= mega Point, would be "Christogenesis". This would be the birth of Christ co= nsciousness, not in an individual, but in the collective=97the spiritual bi= rth of humanity as a whole. Teilhard de Chardin believed this Omega Point would happen thousands of y= ears in the future. Like many others, he did not take into account the impl= ications of ever-accelerating change. In his later years, he commented on t= he impact of radio and television in bringing humanity together. Technologi= es like these, he said, were bringing the Omega Point much closer. Just bef= ore he died, the first computers were being developed. Perceiving the poten= tial of this new technology, he predicted that they too would bring the Ome= ga Point even closer. If he had lived to see the emergence of the Internet,= he would probably have realized that the Omega Point could come very soon = indeed. Breakdown or Breakthrough? When we look at what is happening in the worl= d today, it is understandable that we might scoff at the idea of a collecti= ve spiritual breakthrough. The daily news is full of evidence that we are h= eading ever more rapidly towards breakdown rather than breakthrough. That is indeed one likely possibility. I do not want to play down the dir= e urgency of the world situation. If we don't make some radical changes, we= are surely headed for disaster of one kind or another.=20 I also believe that change is possible. If we can develop the wisdom need= ed to navigate our way though these turbulent times safely, the potentials = are staggering and unimaginable in scope. Let's put our hearts and minds to= proving that we can pass Buckminster Fuller's final evolutionary exam, and= become a truly magnificent species. We are, after all, our only hope. =20=20=20 Date created: 30-Dec-06 The repeating nature of McKenna's timewave shows the same pattern=20 occurring in the late 1960s, where it happened sixty-four times=20 faster. In 2010, the pattern repeats again, sixty-four times faster=20 still. And then, in 2012, sixty-four times faster still. =20 Things are then moving faster? all that is, is moving faster toward=20 some target or place, or reality? a Seneca Indian once told me=20 that the world we live in today is the fifth world. That things move=20 faster in the fifth world and that is why everything is in a hurry=20 today. Everything moves faster in the fifth world. =20 Steve's Note: Things are moving up in frequency, and a higher frequency mea= ns that energy is flowing at a higher rate, and thus things are 'speeded u= p', and manifest thus more quickly!! =20 The timescale is compressed from months to weeks, to days, tending very ra= pidly toward zero: a point McKenna called =93Timewave=20 Zero.=94 =20 =20 =20 Steve's Note: Well, the idea of the 'Zeropoint' spoken of my McKenna=20 and the Mayans 'end of time' implies to me an 'explosion of=20 consciousness' of alignment and oneness, and understanding as a=20 collective UNITED in one field of understanding. It is the knowing=20 that while you still have a separate consciousness, at the same time=20 you fully understand yourself as the collective world spirit, and all=20 the people that make it up unified!! =20 =20 Well we are four years, and eight months away from 2012. Most of=20 us will be lucky and be alive when that date arrives,.........and we=20 shall see.;) =20=20 Thank you for sharing =20=20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mkr777@gmail.com Fri May 04 04:42:33 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25469 invoked from network); 4 May 2007 11:42:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2007 11:42:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO wx-out-0506.google.com) (66.249.82.224) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2007 11:42:32 -0000 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s7so735065wxc for ; Fri, 04 May 2007 04:42:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kpoGlFRqW43zrX8OH7dXpDA1fL92il6QsxPJAIDCBiHBYTzALEuJjjK5ds6NWLqbwG0LL3U0n4KwSUXf9I5yLoqBkHBJ008OS4FtIXxVg+fULjTiyk7pyhzDglWn7h4WsmEn13VejGEM4ajohrG+8wpNnj8QVrYTRc9MpBzTur4= Received: by 10.90.106.11 with SMTP id e11mr2909114agc.1178278952073; Fri, 04 May 2007 04:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.89.19 with HTTP; Fri, 4 May 2007 04:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 06:42:32 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <806323.86290.qm@web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <806323.86290.qm@web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 66.249.82.224 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: Theos-World Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636; y=AoI0QAZJwugZl0ZAjZUoXTRNNHphlOOHcpI2J12MDUMe87zVIkY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40534 Thanks for your kind words too. Many have been introduced to theosophy by the writings of Besant and Leadbeater. I too have read quite a few of their books. At some point we have to realize that we need to go beyond what anyone has written. Once we do that, we can have an open mind, try to start seeing things as they are (one of the most difficult thing to do) and inquire for ourselves and have a better understanding of real life. Life is too short and let us make the best use of it and be helpful to our fellow beings in any way we can. mkr On 5/3/07, Cass Silva wrote: > > Thanks for your kind words and insights. I agree we shouldn't accept > blindly what anyone says, my motto, is a "definite maybe", until I prove it > for myself. In the meantime, HPB is the best there is too offer, imo. > > Love > Cass > > ps Perhaps it is time to put the "dilemma" to bed, as you say, it causes > negative energy for theosophy at best, wasted energy at worst. > > Even though Leadbeaterism and Besantism et all is not pure theosophy, I > imagine it has helped souls by putting them in the right direction, > especially Christians. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jeugener@pacbell.net Fri May 04 12:51:33 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: jeugener@pacbell.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92557 invoked from network); 4 May 2007 19:46:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2007 19:46:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20c.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.23) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2007 19:46:52 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.86] by n20.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2007 19:46:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2007 19:46:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 19:46:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.23 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.231.58.72 From: "Joseph" Subject: pdf documents X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=189327543; y=2lwadi8vFR8OhFxNnLa9AsFIglUFW98sFRjhoW3YJG9VSAn6gAfT11Mp1DSIF1s X-Yahoo-Profile: jeugeneross X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40535 update to the krotonaarchives.com/ Besant Cases in PDF format updated as far as I have been able to find them = among the boxes=20 of documents in the archives. More coming. Leadbeater Affiar documents will be also be updated in the very near future= . Will be selling extra copies sometime in November 2007 of ES documents such= as "The=20 Magent", "The Disciple" an old scarpbook with newspaper clippings from 1890= on H.P.B., and=20 notes of teachings given to the Benares Group by Annie Besant, early LPs by= Krishnamurti,=20 Rukmini Devi, C.W. Leadbeater and much more. Items will be on the website u= nder title=20 "AUCTION". Actual letters between Annie Besant and C.W. Leadbeater dated 1923-1926 wil= l be published=20 in the next volume of Krotona III. Joseph Ross From hari9896@yahoo.com Fri May 04 19:41:37 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: hari9896@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70644 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 02:41:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 02:41:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.119) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 02:41:34 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n15.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 02:41:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 02:41:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 02:41:21 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 02:41:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <867641.52880.qm@web52109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.119 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 202.147.41.90 From: "hari9896" Subject: Re: Theos-World H.P.B. did NOT hesitate to point out Pseudo-Theosophy.... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=167553444; y=7KOS8EIbzSQKaHzKBp98C09v26ftfOOtRsliI99HbYvV7uk X-Yahoo-Profile: hari9896 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40536 >=20 > If one believes in the bonafides of HPB and her Masters and of their > teachings, etc.,, then I would suggest that their words on this > particular topic are worthy of careful consideration and serious > discussion. >=20 > Daniel > http://hpb.cc =20=20=20=20=20=20 We can believew in the bonafides of HPB and her Masters alright but=20 that does not mean that they necessarily knew everything. Their denial=20 of the existence of the Personal God in particular does not seem to be=20 correct. Great incarnate Masters like Yogananda and Sivananda have=20 confirmed His existence. Sri Ramana Maharishi said "Ishvara is Brahman=20 as qualified by Maya" But Ishvara has complete control over Maya. It is=20 claimed in Advaita Vedanta of Sri Shankaracharya that man can share in=20 all the powers of God except the creation and destruction of universes=20 Thus man can become Brahman but he cannot become Ishvara. From nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au Fri May 04 20:58:01 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33259 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 03:57:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.71) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 03:57:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.102) by mta13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 03:57:51 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n9.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 03:57:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 03:57:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.86] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 03:57:48 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 03:57:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.102 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.59.13.146 From: "nhcareyta" Subject: Re: Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=193856796; y=Jk0DeaTfnUKihyY_UNvIXSgJNJIa6Z-kQiBWLrFHHWYWetJ7 X-Yahoo-Profile: nhcareyta X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40537 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M K Ramadoss" wrote: > > Just a few days back I read HPB writing about the difficulty making=20 people > think for themselves (I can't immediately quote the passage) and the > importance of making people think for themselves. When one is=20 constantly > exposed to a set of ideas day in day out, a kind of unconscious=20 brain > washing takes place that even very learned and intelligent persons=20 find it > hard to realize (they may be even leaders and PhDs). All=20 organizations want > conformity and obedient followers and that makes it easy to run the=20 orgn. > Some of these individuals sometimes try to use principles such as=20 Karma to > make the followers conform. One time, a well know leader in one of=20 the > organizations made a very subtle attempt to do so to me and I saw=20 thru it. >=20 > We need more independent thinkers who are also independent in the=20 sense they > are not looking for fame or power or public or organizational=20 acceptance, > since most organizations try to influence the thinking and action=20 thru > subtle incentives (monetary or in-kind) for conformity of the=20 follower. >=20 > My 0.02. >=20 > mkr. Dear mkr Thank you for this posting. There is so much truth to me in your above words.=20 Quite apart from the academic differences and contradictions in=20 various theosophical literature, there is the equally, some would say=20 more important consideration of mindset i.e. the way we think and why=20 we think the way we do. In academic philosophy, for those who may be=20 unaware, this is termed epistemology, loosely summarised as "how do=20 we know what we think we know, and why." The form of "brainwashing" you highlight is a reality, in my=20 experience of others as well as of myself. In the mundane world I=20 have had the opportunity to meet, and in some cases work with, some=20 very powerful people, powerful in terms of their role in life as well=20 as their capacity to influence others. In the early years of my=20 career, on numerous occasions, I could strongly "feel the need" to=20 agree and support a particular point of view or action suggested by=20 one leader or another, despite strongly disagreeing with it in=20 principle. Often, usually after the event, I would remonstrate with=20 myself for allowing this hypocrisy to occur. In time, and with much=20 training, I progressively understood the subtle and not so subtle=20 energies and dynamics of power which can affect and influence us all.=20 This knowledge and subsequent developing awareness, such as it is or=20 is not, nonetheless enabled me to notice more clearly where people,=20 whether consciously or not, would use disempowering methods to retain=20 their own position of mental and/or practical authority. As an abstract example, I have often noticed that otherwise well- motivated people, who have found themselves in positions of power=20 within an organisation or indeed mindset, and who have not been=20 trained in its machinations, will simply become instruments of=20 compliance to the status quo, where many things are accepted=20 as "givens" without any critical analysis. From this mindset, they=20 set about developing more and more sophisticated ways to promote and=20 even defend these givens, rather than using some of the abundant=20 energy generated from this process to more thoroughly investigate the=20 matters or requirements upon which they are insisting. As a practical example, over the past few years in this forum, we=20 have heard from a number of members who support and believe in the=20 teachings of Bishop CW Leadbeater. It goes without saying that in=20 this they are perfectly and justly entitled so to do. However when it=20 was pointed out to them that there are obvious contradictions between=20 his and his putative Masters' teachings and that he had indeed=20 consistently lied about certain matters, there was hardly an=20 objective word from them in response to these rational propositions.=20 In fact one member in particular ignored numerous requests for his=20 own explanation of these issues and simply continued to post his own=20 dogma. Other methods used to maintain their mental status quo=20 included diverting the topic to another, only answering certain parts=20 of a question, challenging statements which hadn't been made, ad=20 hominem attacks on Madame Blavatsky and on the questioner, and so on=20 and so forth.=20 All this indicates to me a mind that is only prepared to consider one=20 perspective, or worse, only those perspectives which support their=20 particular mental position. Moreover, this mindset does not belong=20 exclusively to the followers of Bishop Leadbeater, rather to all who=20 blindly follow one or other person, teaching or set of requirements. This is the dogmatic mindset at its "philosophical" worst which has=20 produced the various dogmas throughout the ages be they religious,=20 political or personal, of which Madame Blavatsky challenged as much,=20 if not more than, their actual teachings.=20 This insidious mindset can often sound entirely reasonable when=20 calling for consideration, fairness and justice. Oftentimes we might=20 fail to realise that this can be yet another ploy to maintain yet=20 another disempowering mindset designed to retain external control=20 over ourselves and others. This can be an entirely unconscious=20 process, nonetheless it is equally powerful and is equally successful. Thank you again for what is to me your insightful posting mkr. Regards Nigel >=20 > On 5/3/07, nhcareyta wrote: > > > > It seems to me that so long as people blindly follow and accept > > others' pronouncements, INCLUDING those of the Mahatmas and Madame > > Blavatsky, we as a humanity will never fully think for ourselves=20 and > > will continue to think, speak and act largely from our often fear- > > based, habit, conditioned, reactive mindset produced and inherited > > from skandhas, parents, school, peers, society and culture. > > > > Perhaps only when we truly liberate our minds will we see beyond > > these distinctions and limitations and will indeed begin to=20 develop a > > nucleus of the Brotherhood (Unity) of humanity. Until then, many=20 of > > us will continue to follow like sheep whichever person, group or > > organisation happens to tell us either that which we would like to > > hear or how we would like things to be.._._,___ > > >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat May 05 09:37:57 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70790 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 16:37:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 16:37:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.225) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 16:37:56 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n25.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:37:39 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.86] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:37:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:37:39 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 16:37:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.225 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: hari9896 on the Masters & "the existence of the Personal God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=DZieq6C29GwRimcIZeA4i_g_sQDexlpiasHs3rphmktZPkiyGioUfz-V X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40538 hari9896, You wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------- We can believew in the bonafides of HPB and her Masters alright but that does not mean that they necessarily knew everything. Their denial of the existence of the Personal God in particular does not seem to be correct. Great incarnate Masters like Yogananda and Sivananda have confirmed His existence. Sri Ramana Maharishi said "Ishvara is Brahman as qualified by Maya" But Ishvara has complete control over Maya. It=20 is claimed in Advaita Vedanta of Sri Shankaracharya that man can=20 share in all the powers of God except the creation and destruction of=20 universes Thus man can become Brahman but he cannot become Ishvara. -------------------------------------------------------------- I hope that you will take the time and effort to explain in greater detail what you mean by "the existence of the Personal God." In other words, I believe some readers on this forum would like to=20 know your thinking on this subject and why you believe HPB's Masters=20 are not correct when they deny "the existence of the Personal God." I am interested in your own thinking on this matter and how you=20 arrived at this conclusion as you have stated it. I will post a number of other items which may provide some food for=20 thought. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat May 05 09:45:21 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57802 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 16:45:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 16:45:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.241) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 16:45:02 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n26.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:44:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:44:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:44:48 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 16:44:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.241 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Koot Hoomi on the Location of God X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=hyNrLdbuOdrbsuZKdF9LjSR1dsUpp62EMZ9jRvncDioxOoW80OE5hL9L X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40539 Koot Hoomi on the Location of God=20=20=20=20 God as "A Being" versus God as "No-being" Koot Hoomi wrote to A.P. Sinnett: "A Being however gigantic, occupying space and having length breadth and thickness is most certainly the Mosaic deity; 'No-being' and a mere principle lands you directly in the Buddhistic atheism, or the Vedantic primitive Acosmism." Here we have: DUALITY versus NON-DUALITY or "A Being" versus "No-being" Compare the above by Master KH with what a metaphysician writes. In a chapter titled "Location of God" in his book THE COSMIC WOMB, Arthur W. Osborn comments: ". . . when we ask such a question as, 'Does God exist?' we are virtually implying someone or something OBJECTIVE in the same sense that we as individuals are objective. To be existent is to objectively real; it is a particular manifestation of a primal 'isness.' We are therefore back again to the problem of immanence; and transcendence and immanence, if universal, would be pantheism." "If God exists, therefore, He must represent some Reality having objectivity RELATIVE to man and, indeed, to the universe." "But this poses the problem of reconciling the postulated quality of universality with the objective implication of being in existence. As we have noted, universality leads logically to pantheism, whereas existence, with its aspect of objectivity, implies LIMITATION." p. 57 caps added. Compare all of the above with the following excerpts from the Encyclop=E6dia Britannica. CAPS have been added to certain words in the text of each entry to emphasize those words and the concepts behind the words. ----------------------------------------- VAISHNAVISM also called Vishnuism, or Visnuism . . . [is] worship of the god Vishnu and of his incarnations, principally as Rama and as Krishna. It is one of the major forms of modern Hinduism=97with Saivism and Shaktism (Saktism). A major characteristic of Vaishnavism is the strong part played by bhakti, or religious devotion. The ultimate goal of the devotee is to escape from the cycle of birth and death so as to enjoy the presence of Vishnu. This cannot be achieved without the grace of God. . . . The philosophical schools of Vaishnavism differ in their interpretation of THE RELATIONSHIP between individual souls and God. The doctrines of the most important schools are: (1) visist advaita ("qualified monism"), associated with the name of Ramanuja (11th century) and continued by the Srivais nava sect, prominent in South India; (2) dvaita ("dualism"), the principal exponent of which was Madhva (13th century), who taught that although the soul is dependent on God it is NOT an extension of God, that the soul and God are SEPARATE entities; (3) dvaitadvaita ("dualistic monism"), taught by Nimbarka. . . (4) suddhadvaita ("pure monism") of Vallabha. . . (5) acintya-bhedabheda ("inconceivable duality and nonduality"), the doctrine of Caitanya. . . --------------------------------------------------- DVAITA . . . (Sanskrit: "Dualism"), [dualism, or belief in a BASIC DIFFERENCE in kind between God and individual souls] [is] an important school in the orthodox Hindu philosophical system of Vedanta. Its founder was Madhva. . . . Already during his lifetime, Madhva was regarded by his followers as an incarnation of the wind god Vayu, who had been sent to earth by the lord Vishnu to save the good, after the powers of evil had sent the philosopher Sankara, an important proponent of the Advaita ("Nondualist") school. In his expositions, Madhva shows the influence of the Nyaya philosophic school. He maintains that Vishnu is the supreme God, thus identifying the Brahman of the Upanisads with A PERSONAL God, as Ramanuja (c. 1050=961137) had done before him. There are in Madhva's system THREE ETERNAL, ontological orders: that of God, that of soul, and that of inanimate nature. The existence of God is demonstrable by logical proof, though only scripture teaches his nature. He is the epitome of all perfections and possesses a nonmaterial body, which consists of saccidananda (being, spirit, and bliss). God is the efficient cause of the universe, but Madhva denies that he is the material cause, for God cannot have created the world by splitting himself nor in any other way, since that militates against the doctrine that God is unalterable; in addition, it is blasphemous to accept that a perfect God changes himself into an imperfect world. . . . Madhva set out to refute the nondualistic Advaita philosophy of Sankara (d. c. AD 750), who believed the INDIVIDUAL self to be a phenomenon and the absolute spirit (Brahman) the ONLY reality. Thus, Madhva rejected the venerable Hindu theory of maya ("illusion"), which taught that only spirituality is eternal and the material world is illusory and deceptive. Madhva maintained that the simple fact that things are transient and everchanging does not mean they are not real. . . . Madhva . . . belonged to the tradition of Vaisnava religious faith and showed a great polemical spirit in refuting Sankara's philosophy and in converting people to his own fold. . . . He glorified DIFFFERENCE. Five types of differences are central to Madhva's system: DIFFERENCE between soul and God, between soul and soul, between soul and matter, between God and matter, and that between matter and matter. Brahman is the fullness of qualities, and by his own intrinsic nature, Brahman produces the world. The individual, otherwise free, is dependent only upon God. The Advaita concepts of falsity and indescribability of the world were severely criticized and rejected. -------------------------------------------------------------- ADVAITA (Sanskrit: "Nondualism," or "Monism"), [is] most influential of the schools of Vedanta, an orthodox philosophy of India. While its followers find its main tenets already fully expressed in the Upanisads and systematized by the Vedanta-sutras, it has its historical beginning with the 7th-century thinker Gaudapada. . . Gaudapada builds further on the Mahayana Buddhist philosophy of Sunyava-da ("Emptiness"). He argues that there is NO DUALITY; the mind, awake or dreaming, moves through maya ("illusion"); and only nonduality (advaita) is the final truth. This truth is concealed by the ignorance of illusion. There is no becoming, either of a thing by itself or of a thing out of some other thing. THERE IS ULTIMATELY NO INDIVIDUAL SELF OR SOUL (jiva), ONLY THE ATMAN (all-soul), in which individuals may be temporarily delineated just as the space in a jar delineates a part of main space: when the jar is broken, the individual space becomes once more part of the main space. The medieval Indian philosopher Sankara, or Sankaracarya (Master Sankara, c. 700=96750), builds further on Gaudapada's foundation, . . . Sankara in his philosophy does not start from the empirical world with logical analysis but, rather, directly from the absolute (Brahman). If interpreted correctly, he argues, the Upanisads teach the nature of Brahman. In making this argument, he develops a complete epistemology to account for the human error in taking the phenomenal world for real. Fundamental for Sankara is the tenet that the Brahman is real and the world is unreal. Any change, duality, or plurality is an illusion. The self is NOTHING BUT Brahman. Insight into this identity results in spiritual release. Brahman is outside time, space, and causality, which are simply forms of empirical experience. NO DISTINCTIN in Brahman or from Brahman is possible. Sankara points to scriptural texts, either stating identity ("Thou art that") or denying difference ("There is no duality here"), as declaring the true meaning of a Brahman without qualities (nirguna ). Other texts that ascribe qualities (saguna) to Brahman refer not to the true nature of Brahman but to its personality as God(Isvara). . . . ---------------------------------------------------- PANTHEISM in Hinduism The gods of the Vedas, the ancient scriptures of India (c.1200 BC), represented for the most part natural forces. Exceptions were the gods Prajapati (Lord of Creatures) and Purusa (Supreme Being or Soul of the Universe), whose competition for influence provided, in its outcome, a possible explanation of how the Indian tradition came to be one of pantheism rather than of Classical Theism. By the 10th book of the Rigveda, Prajapati had become a lordly, monotheistic figure, a creator deity transcending the world; and in the later period of the sacred writings of the Brahmanas (c. 7th century BC), prose commentaries on the Vedas, he was moving into a central position. The rising influence of this Theism was later eclipsed by Purusa, who was also represented in Rigveda X. In a creation myth Purusa was sacrificed by the gods in order to supply (from his body) the pieces from which all the things of the world arise. From this standpoint the ground of all things lies in a Cosmic Self, and all of life participates in that of Purusa. The Vedic hymn to Purusa may be regarded as the starting point of Indian pantheism. In the Upanisads (c. 1000=96500 BC), the most important of the ancient scriptures of India, the later writings contain philosophic speculations concerning the relation between the individual and the divine. In the earlier Upanisads, the absolute, impersonal, eternal properties of the divine had been stressed; in the later Upanisads, on the other hand, and in the Bhagavadgita , the personal, loving, immanentistic properties became dominant. In both cases the divine was held to be IDENTICAL with the inner self of each man. At times these opposites were implicitly held to be in fact identical=97the view earlier called identity of opposites pantheism. At other times the two sets of qualities were related, one to the unmanifest absolute Brahman, or supreme reality (sustaining the universe), and the other to the manifest Brahman bearing qualities (and containing the universe). Thus Brahman can be regarded as exclusive of the world and inclusive, unchanging and yet the origin of all change. Sometimes the manifest Brahman was regarded as an emanation from the unmanifest Brahman; and then emanationistic pantheism=97the Neoplatonic pantheism of the foregoing typology=97was the result. Sankara, an outstanding nondualistic Vedantist and advocate of a spiritual view of life, began with the Neoplatonic alternative but added a qualification that turned his view into what was later called acosmic pantheism. Distinguishing first between Brahman as being the eternal Absolute and Brahman as a lower principle and declaring the lower Brahman to be a manifestation of the higher, he then made the judgment that all save the higher unqualitied Brahman is the product of ignorance or nescience and exists (apparently only in men's minds) as the phantoms of a dream. Since for Sankara, the world and individuality thus disappear upon enlightenment into the unmanifest Brahman, and in reality only the Absolute without distinctions exists, Sankara has provided an instance of acosmism. --------------------------------------------------- ACOSMISM [is] in philosophy, the view that God is the sole and ultimate reality and that finite objects and events have no INDEPENDENT existence. Acosmism has been equated with pantheism, the belief that everything is God. G.W.F. Hegel coined the word to defend Benedict de Spinoza, who was accused of atheism for rejecting the traditional view of a created world EXISTING OUTSIDE GOD. Hegel argued that Spinoza could not be an atheist because pantheists hold that EVERYTHING is God, whereas atheists exclude God altogether and make a godless world the sole reality. Furthermore, because Spinoza's cosmos is part of God, it is not what it seems to be. He is acosmistic insofar as "noncosmic" seems to deny the cosmos=97a position, however, very alien to Spinoza's thought. Acosmism has also been used to describe the philosophies of Hindu Vedanta, Buddhism, and Arthur Schopenhauer; and Johann Gottlieb Fichte used the term to defend himself against accusations similar to those leveled against Spinoza. ----------------------------------------------------- Daniel http://hpb.cc =20 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat May 05 09:50:45 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31992 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 16:49:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 16:49:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18c.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.206) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 16:49:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n18.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:49:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by t3.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:49:52 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 16:49:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.206 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: More from Master KH on "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=esU-UfgRXzoZmxmsFEGJpYD9ijWwiBlfUOQFvAwJYk9hkTkCoGRwpsEw X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40540 KH writes to Mr. Sinnett: "And thus according to Mr. Massey's philosophical conclusion we have no God? He is right -- since he applies the name to an extra-cosmic anomaly, and that we, knowing nothing of the latter, find -- each man his God -- within himself in his own personal, and at the same time, -- impersonal Avalokiteswara. And now -- farewell." Quoted from: http://theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-82.htm In another letter, KH writes: "Pantheistic we may be called -- agnostic NEVER. If people are willing to accept and to regard as God our ONE LIFE immutable and unconscious in its eternity they may do so and thus keep to one more gigantic misnomer. But then they will have to say with Spinoza that there is not and that we cannot conceive any other substance than God . . . and thus become Pantheists . . . . who but a Theologian nursed on mystery and the most absurd super-naturalism can imagine a self existent being of necessity infinite and omnipresent outside the manifested boundless universe. The word infinite is but a negative which excludes the idea of bounds. It is evident that a being independent and omnipresent cannot be limited by anything which is outside of himself; that there can be nothing exterior to himself -- not even vacuum, then where is there room for matter? for that manifested universe even though the latter limited. If we ask the theist is your God vacuum, space or matter, they will reply no. And yet they hold that their God penetrates matter though he is not himself matter. When we speak of our One Life we also say that it penetrates, nay is the essence of every atom of matter; and that therefore it not only has correspondence with matter but has all its properties likewise, etc. -- hence is material, is matter itself...." ". . We are not Adwaitees, but our teaching respecting the one life is identical with that of the Adwaitee with regard to Parabrahm. And no true philosophically brained Adwaitee will ever call himself an agnostic, for he knows that he is Parabrahm and identical in every respect with the universal life and soul -- the macrocosm is the microcosm and he knows that there is no God apart from himself, no creator as no being. Having found Gnosis we cannot turn our backs on it and become agnostics." ". . . We deny the existence of a thinking conscious God, on the grounds that such a God must either be conditioned, limited and subject to change, therefore not infinite, or (2) if he is represented to us as an eternal unchangeable and independent being, with not a particle of matter in him, then we answer that it is no being but an immutable blind principle, a law...." Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm ---------------------------------------------------- Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat May 05 09:59:09 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41232 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 16:59:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m44.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 16:59:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.132) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 16:59:09 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n19.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:59:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:59:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.84] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 16:59:01 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 16:58:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.132 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Issues dealing with Theism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=E2ykM86n-FFjZIKW__g2TlFxyM3E42FxYWBA0f6GTCas-a8G8uJXjeuf X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40541 BELOW is a posting of mine from 2003 on Theos-Talk. The subject matter is relevant to the current topic. Daniel http://hpb.cc ------------------------------------------------------------ Re: "Location of God" and other issues dealing with theism, etc.=20 Bill, you wrote in part: "If, when we ask, 'Does God exist?' we mean exist separate from us on the physical plane as an objective reality then certainly we may use logic to deny the plausibility of such." But why confine the above comment ONLY to the physical plane? Does "God" exist SEPARATE from us (as an objective reality?) on some higher plane of existence? Notice what BAG wrote: "MAHA VISHNU IN NOT WITHIN ANY MATERIAL UNIVERSE. HE IS IN THE MAHATATTVA PORTION OF THE SPIRITUAL SKY, AND THE INFINITE NUMBER OF FINITE MATERIAL UNIVERSES (LIKE OUR OWN) ARE MANIFEST LIKE BUBBLES OUT OF THE 'PORES' OF HISBODY. THESE ARE EMPTY UNTIL HE GLANCES ON THEM. HIS GLANCE IS CALLED SHAMBHU,AND THROUGH THIS LOVING GLANCE, HE MANIFESTS ALL OF THE FINITE JIVA-SOULS WITHIN EACH FINITE UNIVERSE. MAHA VISHNU THEN ENTERS INTO EACH UNIVERSE AS GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU, THE SELF-SACRIFICED COSMIC PURUSHA AND THE PARAMATMA 'HOLY SPIRIT', LORD OF ALL HEARTS. HE ALSO MANIFESTS HIMSELF AS THE GUNA AVATARAS BRAHMA, VISHNU AND SHIVA, AND AS INFINITE DIRECT LILA INCARNATIONS AND 'EMPOWERED' SHAKTYAVESHA INCARNATIONS." Compare the above by BAG with one of the images he referred readers to: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/bimages/garbod.vishnu.GIF Should we take what BAG writes in a literal way? Does Vishnu REALLY look like he is depicted in the above image? Is "God" really a "male"? Does he really have a "body" with "pores"? Bill, you go on to write: ". . . At that location where we fall silent before the ineffable we may get an intuitive glimpse of God. Such a glimmer may change our consciousness of being such that we sense that God is the source of our freedom to ask such questions." "If Theosophy is reduced to a dogmatic set of beliefs about the ineffable, then it is but another religion on the backburner of the Universe. Of course this is just my opinion and everyone is free to form their own opinion using whatever tools they have." It's good that you bring up these issues, but what about BAG's views about a "personal God" in light of what I just quoted from you? Maybe the Vaishnava views expressed by BAG are ALSO "a dogmatic set of beliefs about the ineffable." Yes, I believe in the "ineffable". In fact, I think I have "experienced" the "ineffable." But why must one declare that the "ineffable" MUST BE a "personal God" as apparently BAG was trying to do? He advocated monotheism and (it appeared to me) abhorred pantheism. Time and time again he spoke of the PERSONALITY OF GOD OR THE GODHEAD but never really explained what he meant by using such phraseology. I got the impression from what BAG wrote that somehow "God" was separate from you or me or the universe. This is dualism, isn't it? Please compare Jerry's views on this specfic subject with BAG's. Written in a hurry so excuse any incompleteness on my part. Daniel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat May 05 10:04:39 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99695 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 17:04:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m49.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 17:04:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.210) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 17:04:28 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n31.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 17:04:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 17:04:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 17:04:18 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 17:04:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.210 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Personal experiences of a Supreme Personality X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=lHQFkSmAAVkU23aYVSFpm7xZey0l2bgkKeGELTvD8w4iLhckG-TLLVWv X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40542 BELOW is one of my postings from 2002 on Theos-Talk. It was=20 addressed to one of the Theos-Talk posters. Daniel http://hpb.cc ------------------------------------------------------ Robert, Thanks for your various comments. Hopefully they will make readers on this forum think more deeply about some of the undelying issues. Let me give you in turn some food for thought. In one of of your emails, you state: "There are many credible people who have testified to the personal experience of a supreme personality at the pinnacle of conscious experience." And in another posting, you write of "those who have experienced and described the supreme personality. . . . " Again you write: "I'm speaking of direct experience of God. You may accept or not accept the testimony of witnesses, but such testimony is categorically different from speculation." But have you ever considered that these testimonies might include an element of "hallucination" or "delusion"? BELOW are four excerpts from the Mahatma Letters presenting what looks like this point of view: Excerpt 1: ". . . every thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world and becomes an active entity by associating itself - coalescing, we might term it -- with an elemental; that is to say with one of the semi-intelligent forces of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence, a creature of the mind's begetting, for a longer or shorter period proportionate with the original intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus, a good thought is perpetuated as an active beneficent power; an evil one as a maleficent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space with a world of his own, crowded with the offsprings of his fancies, desires, impulses, and passions. . . ." Koot Hoomi Excerpt 2: "Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions attracts millions of foreign influences, living entities and powerful agents [elementals?] around them [the devotees of various religions]. . . . The unprogressed Planetaries [elementals?]. . . delight in personating gods and sometimes well known characters who have lived on earth. There are Dhyan-Chohans and 'Chohans of Darkness,' not what they term devils but imperfect 'Intelligences' who have never been born on this or any other earth or sphere no more than the 'Dhyan Chohans' have and who will never belong to the 'builders of the Universe,' the pure Planetary Intelligences, who preside at every Manvantara while the Dark Chohans preside at the Pralayas. . . . As all in this universe is contrast . . . so the light of the Dhyan Chohans and their pure intelligence is contrasted by the 'Ma-Mo Chohans' -- and their destructive intelligence. These are the gods the Hindus and Christians and Mahomed and all others of bigoted religions and sects worship. . . . " Morya Excerpt 3: "Vainly do your modern seers and their prophetesses, creep into every cleft and crevice without outlet or continuity they chance to see; and still more vainly, when once within do they lift up their voices and loudly cry: 'Eureka! We have gotten a Revelation from the Lord!' - - for verily have they nothing of the kind. They have disturbed but bats [elementals, unprogressed Planetaries?], less blind than their intruders; who, feeling them flying about, mistake them as often for angels -- as they too, have wings! Doubt not, my friend: it is but from the very top of those 'adamantine rocks' of ours, not at their foot, that one is ever enabled to perceive the whole Truth, by embracing the whole limitless horizon." Koot Hoomi Excerpt 4: Stainton Moses, a "seer" and medium of the 1880s wrote: ". . . my inner spirit-sense is opened. Only yesterday . . . Imper [ator] . . . was clearly visible and audible to me. . . . " To this comment by Stainton Moses [S.M.], Koot Hoomi wrote: ". . . So is Jesus and John the Baptist [clearly visible and audible] to Edward Maitland; [who is] as true and as honest and sincere as S.M. . . . And does not E. Maitland see Hermes the first and second and Elijah, etc. Finally does not Mrs. [Anna] Kingsford feel as sure as S.M. with regard to + [Imperator] that she saw and conversed with God!! . . . And who purer or more truthful than that woman or Maitland! Mystery, mystery will you exclaim. IGNORANCE we answer; the creation of that we believe in and want to see. . . . " Some food for thought. Daniel =20 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat May 05 10:16:54 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79391 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 17:16:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 17:16:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.117) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 17:16:53 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n14.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 17:16:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 17:16:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.91] by t2.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2007 17:16:50 -0000 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 17:16:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.117 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: The Mahatma Letters on "God" & Related Terms X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=GiFCvH8Rloa8Di8E_KdNLuLCABFMG5y4Oxox7OARaqFG-rHg9iUh7Q4G X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40543 I give BELOW a compilation of extracts from various Mahatma letters on "God", "spirit", "matter", "atman", Parabrahm, etc. One could also annotate all of these extracts with other extracts from HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE and her other works. One might also ponder on the words theism, a-theism and pan-theism and what they actually mean as one reads all these extracts. Daniel http://hpb.cc ----------------------------------------- Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital G. . . . we deny God both as philosophers and as Buddhists. We know there are planetary and other spiritual lives, and we know there is in our system no such thing as God, either personal or impersonal. Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya, ignorance based upon the great delusion. . . . . . . while we assign to all the phenomena that proceed from the infinite and limitless space, duration and motion, material, natural, sensible and known (to us at least) cause, the theists assign them spiritual, super-natural and unintelligible an un-known causes. . . . . . . Pantheistic we may be called -- agnostic NEVER. If people are willing to accept and to regard as God our ONE LIFE immutable and unconscious in its eternity they may do so and thus keep to one more gigantic misnomer. But then they will have to say with Spinoza that there is not and that we cannot conceive any other substance than God; or as that famous and unfortunate philosopher says in his fourteenth proposition, "practer Deum neque dari neque concepi potest substantia" -- and thus become Pantheists . . . . . . . When we speak of our One Life we also say that it penetrates, nay is the essence of every atom of matter; and that therefore it not only has correspondence with matter but has all its properties likewise, etc. -- hence is material, is matter itself. . . . . . . We are not Adwaitees, but our teaching respecting the one life is identical with that of the Adwaitee with regard to Parabrahm. And no true philosophically brained Adwaitee will ever call himself an agnostic, for he knows that he is Parabrahm and identical in every respect with the universal life and soul -- the macrocosm is the microcosm and he knows that there is no God apart from himself, no creator as no being. Having found Gnosis we cannot turn our backs on it and become agnostics. . . . . . . We deny the existence of a thinking conscious God, on the grounds that such a God must either be conditioned, limited and subject to change, therefore not infinite, or . . . if he is represented to us as an eternal unchangeable and independent being, with not a particle of matter in him, then we answer that it is no being but an immutable blind principle, a law. . . . . . . if they tell us that God is a self existent pure spirit independent of matter -- an extra-cosmic deity, we answer that admitting even the possibility of such an impossibility, i.e., his existence, we yet hold that a purely immaterial spirit cannot be an intelligent conscious ruler nor can he have any of the attributes bestowed upon him by theology and thus such a God becomes again but a blind force. Intelligence as found in our Dyan Chohans, is a faculty that can appertain but to organized or animated being -- however imponderable or rather invisible the materials of their organizations. Intelligence requires the necessity of thinking; to think one must have ideas; ideas suppose senses which are physical material, and how can anything material belong to pure spirit? . . . . . . we believe in MATTER alone, in matter as visible nature and matter in its invisibility as the invisible omnipresent omnipotent Proteus with its unceasing motion which is its life, and which nature draws from herself since she is the great whole outside of which nothing can exist. . . . . . . The existence of matter then is a fact; the existence of motion is another fact, their self existence and eternity or indestructibility is a third fact. And the idea of pure spirit as a Being or an Existence -- give it whatever name you will -- is a chimera, a gigantic absurdity. . . . . . . Contrary in that to the finite, the "infinite mind," which we name so but for argument's sake, for we call it the infinite FORCE -- exhibits but the functions of its cerebellum, the existence of its supposed cerebrum being admitted as above stated, but on the inferential hypothesis deduced from the Kabalistic theory (correct in every other relation) of the Macrocosm being the prototype of the Microcosm. So far as we know the corroboration of it by modern science receiving but little consideration -- so far as the highest Planetary Spirits have ascertained (who remember well have the same relations with the trans-cosmical world, penetrating behind the primitive veil of cosmic matter as we have to go behind the veil of this, our gross physical world --) the infinite mind displays to them as to us no more than the regular unconscious throbbings of the eternal and universal pulse of Nature, throughout the myriads of worlds within as without the primitive veil of our solar system. It is the peculiar faculty of the involuntary power of the infinite mind -- which no one could ever think of calling God, -- to be eternally evolving subjective matter into objective atoms (you will please remember that these two adjectives are used but in a relative sense) or cosmic matter to be later on developed into form. And it is likewise that same involuntary mechanical power that we see so intensely active in all the fixed laws of nature -- which governs and controls what is called the Universe or the Cosmos. There are some modern philosophers who would prove the existence of a Creator from motion. We say and affirm that that motion -- the universal perpetual motion which never ceases never slackens nor increases its speed not even during the interludes between the pralayas, or "nights of Brahma" but goes on like a mill set in motion, whether it has anything to grind or not (for the pralaya means the temporary loss of every form, but by no means the destruction of cosmic matter which is eternal) -- we say this perpetual motion is the only eternal and uncreated Deity we are able to recognise. To regard God as an intelligent spirit, and accept at the same time his absolute immateriality is to conceive of a nonentity, a blank void; to regard God as a Being, an Ego and to place his intelligence under a bushel for some mysterious reasons -- is a most consummate nonsense; to endow him with intelligence in the face of blind brutal Evil is to make of him a fiend -- a most rascally God. A Being however gigantic, occupying space and having length breadth and thickness is most certainly the Mosaic deity; "No-being" and a mere principle lands you directly in the Buddhistic atheism, or the Vedantic primitive Acosmism. What lies beyond and outside the worlds of form, and being, in worlds and spheres in their most spiritualized state -- (and you will perhaps oblige us by telling us where that beyond can be, since the Universe is infinite and limitless) is useless for anyone to search after since even Planetary Spirits have no knowledge or perception of it. If our greatest adepts and Bodhisatvas have never penetrated themselves beyond our solar system, -- and the idea seems to suit your preconceived theistic theory wonderfully, my respected Brother -- they still know of the existence of other such solar systems, with as mathematical a certainty as any western astronomer knows of the existence of invisible stars which he can never approach or explore. But of that which lies within the worlds and systems, not in the trans-infinitude -- (a queer expression to use) -- but in the cis-infinitude rather, in the state of the purest and inconceivable immateriality, no one ever knew or will ever tell, hence it is something non-existent for the universe. You are at liberty to place in this eternal vacuum the intellectual or voluntary powers of your deity -- if you can conceive of such a thing. . . . . . . And we maintain that wherever there is life and being, and in however much spiritualized a form, there is no room for moral government, much less for a moral Governor -- a Being which at the same time has no form nor occupies space! Verily if light shineth in darkness, and darkness comprehends it not, it is because such is the natural law, but how more suggestive and pregnant with meaning for one who knows, to say that light can still less comprehend darkness, nor ever know it since it kills wherever it penetrates and annihilates it instantly. Pure yet a volitional Spirit is an absurdity for volitional mind. The result of organism cannot exist independently of an organized brain, and an organized brain made out of nihil is a still greater fallacy. If you ask me "Whence then the immutable laws? -- laws cannot make themselves" -- then in my turn I will ask you -- and whence their supposed Creator? -- a creator cannot create or make himself. If the brain did not make itself, for this would be affirming that brain acted before it existed, how could intelligence, the result of an organized brain, act before its creator was made. . . . Yes: there is a force as limitless as thought, as potent as boundless will, as subtile as the essence of life so inconceivably awful in its rending force as to convulse the universe to its centre would it but be used as a lever, but this Force is not God, since there are men who have learned the secret of subjecting it to their will when necessary. Look around you and see the myriad manifestations of life, so infinitely multiform; of life, of motion, of change. What caused these? From what inexhaustible source came they, by what agency? Out of the invisible and subjective they have entered our little area of the visible and objective. Children of Akasa, concrete evolutions from the ether, it was force which brought them into perceptibility and Force will in time remove them from the sight of man. Why should this plant in your garden to the right, have been produced with such a shape and that other one to the left with one totally dissimilar? Are these not the result of varying action of Force -- unlike correlations? Given a perfect monotony of activities throughout the world, and we would have a complete identity of forms, colours, shapes and properties throughout all the kingdoms of nature. It is the motion with its resulting conflict, neutralization, equilibration, correlation, to which is due the infinite variety which prevails. You speak of an intelligent and good -- (the attribute is rather unfortunately chosen) -- Father, a moral guide and governor of the universe and man. A certain condition of things exists around us which we call normal. Under this nothing can occur which transcends our every-day experience "God's immutable laws." But suppose we change this condition and have the best of him without whom even a hair of your head will not fall, as they tell you in the West. A current of air brings to me from the lake near which, with my fingers half frozen I now write to you this letter -- I change by a certain combination of electrical magnetic odyllic or other influences the current of air which benumbs my fingers into a warmer breeze; I have thwarted the intention of the Almighty, and dethroned him at my will! I can do that, or when I do not want Nature to produce strange and too visible phenomena, I force my nature-seeing, nature-influencing self within me, to suddenly awake to new perceptions and feelings and thus am my own Creator and ruler. But do you think that you are right when saying that "the laws arise." Immutable laws cannot arise, since they are eternal and uncreated, propelled in the Eternity and that God himself if such a thing existed, could never have the power of stopping them. And when did I say that these laws were fortuitous per se. I meant their blind correlations, never the laws, or rather the law -- since we recognise but one law in the Universe, the law of harmony, of perfect EQUILIBRIUM. Then for a man endowed with so subtle a logic, and such a fine comprehension of the value of ideas in general and that of words especially -- for a man so accurate as you generally are to make tirades upon an "all wise, powerful and love-ful God" seems to say at least strange. I do not protest at all as you seem to think against your theism, or a belief in an abstract ideal of some kind, but I cannot help asking you, how do you or how can you know that your God is all wise, omnipotent and love-ful, when everything in nature, physical and moral, proves such a being, if he does exist to be quite the reverse of all you say of him? Strange delusion and one which seems to overpower your very intellect. . . . The conception of matter and spirit as entirely distinct, and both eternal could certainly never have entered my head, however little I may know of them, for it is one of the elementary and fundamental doctrines of Occultism that the two are one, and are distinct but in their respective manifestations, and only in the limited perceptions of the world of senses. Far from "lacking philosophical breadth" then, our doctrines show, but one principle in nature, -- spirit-matter or matter-spirit, the third the ultimate Absolute or the quintessence of the two, -- if I may be allowed to use an erroneous term in the present application -- losing itself beyond the view and spiritual perceptions of even the "Gods" or Planetary Spirits. This third principle say the Vedantic Philosophers -- is the only reality, everything else being Maya, as none of the Protean manifestations of spirit-matter or Purusha and Prakriti have ever been regarded in any other light than that of temporary delusions of the senses. Even in the hardly outlined philosophy of Isis this idea is clearly carried out. In the book of Kiu-te, Spirit is called the ultimate sublimation of matter, and matter the crystallization of spirit. And no better illustration could be afforded than in the very simple phenomenon of ice, water, vapour and the final dispersion of the latter, the phenomenon being reversed in its consecutive manifestations and called the Spirit failing into generation or matter. This trinity resolving itself into unity, -- a doctrine as old as the world of thought -- was seized upon by some early Christians, who had it in the schools of Alexandria, and made up into the Father, or generative spirit; the Son or matter, -- man; and into the Holy Ghost, the immaterial essence, or the apex of the equilateral triangle, an idea found to this day in the pyramids of Egypt. Thus once more it is proved that you misunderstand my meaning entirely, whenever for the sake of brevity I use a phraseology habitual with the Western people. But in my turn I have to remark that your idea that matter is but the temporary allotropic form of spirit differing from it as charcoal does from diamond is as unphilosophical as it is unscientific from both the Eastern and the Western points of view, charcoal being but a form of residue of matter, while matter per se is indestructible, and as I maintain coeval with spirit -- that spirit which we know and can conceive of. Bereaved of Prakriti, Purusha (Spirit) is unable to manifest itself, hence ceases to exist -- becomes nihil. Without spirit or Force, even that which Science styles as "not living" matter, the so-called mineral ingredients which feed plants, could never have been called into form. There is a moment in the existence of every molecule and atom of matter when, for one cause or another, the last spark of spirit or motion or life (call it by whatever name) is withdrawn, and in the same instant with the swiftness which surpasses that of the lightning glance of thought the atom or molecule or an aggregation of molecules is annihilated to return to its pristine purity of intra-cosmic matter. It is drawn to the mother fount with the velocity of a globule of quicksilver to the central mass. Matter, force, and motion are the trinity of physical objective nature, as the trinitarian unity of spirit-matter is that of the spiritual or subjective nature. Motion is eternal because spirit is eternal. But no modes of motion can ever be conceived unless they be in connection with matter. . . . . . . And thus according to Mr. Massey's philosophical conclusion we have no God? He is right -- since he applies the name to an extra- cosmic anomaly, and that we, knowing nothing of the latter, find -- each man his God -- within himself in his own personal, and at the same time, -- impersonal Avalokiteswara. . . . . . . Avalokita Isvar literally interpreted means "the Lord that is seen." "Iswara" implying moreover, rather the adjective than the noun, lordly, self-existent lordliness, not Lord. It is, when correctly interpreted, in one sense "the divine Self perceived or seen by Self," the Atman or seventh principle ridded of its mayavic distinction from its Universal Source -- which becomes the object of perception for, and by the individuality centred in Buddhi, the sixth principle, -- something that happens only in the highest state of Samadhi. This is applying it to the microcosm. In the other sense Avalokitesvara implies the seventh Universal Principle, as the object perceived by the Universal Buddhi "Mind" or Intelligence which is the synthetic aggregation of all the Dhyan Chohans, as of all other intelligences whether great or small, that ever were, are, or will be. Nor is it the "Spirit of Buddhas present in the Church," but the Omnipresent Universal Spirit in the temple of nature -- in one case; and the seventh Principle -- the Atman in the temple -- man -- in the other. Mr. Rhys Davids might have, at least remembered, the (to him) familiar simile made by the Christian Adept, the Kabalistic Paul: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you" -- and thus avoided to have made a mess of the name. Though as a grammarian he detected the use of the "past particle passive" yet he shows himself far from an inspired "Panini" in overlooking the true cause and saving his grammar by raising the hue and cry against metaphysics. And yet, he quotes Beale's [Beal] Catena as his authority, for the invention, when, in truth, this work is perhaps the only one in English that gives an approximately correct explanation of the word, at any rate, on page 374. "Self- manifested" -- How? it is asked. "Speech or Vach was regarded as the Son or the manifestation of the Eternal Self, and was adored under the name of Avalokitesvara, the manifested God." This shows as clearly as can be -- that Avalokitesvara is both the unmanifested Father and the manifested Son, the latter proceeding from, and identical with, the other; -- namely, the Parabrahm and Jivatman, the Universal and the individualized seventh Principle, -- the Passive and the Active, the latter the Word, Logos, the Verb. Call it by whatever name, only let these unfortunate, deluded Christians know that the real Christ of every Christian is the Vach, the "mystical Voice," . . . . . . [Do you] know the meaning of the white and black interlaced triangles, of the Parent [Theosophical] Society's seal . . . ? Shall I explain? -- the double triangle viewed by the Jewish Kabalists as Solomon's Seal, is, as many of you doubtless know the Sri-antara of the archaic Aryan Temple, the "mystery of Mysteries," a geometrical synthesis of the whole occult doctrine. The two interlaced triangles are the Buddhangums of Creation. They contain the "squaring of the circle," the "philosophical stone," the great problems of Life and Death, and -- the Mystery of Evil. . . .Of course you know that the double-triangle -- the Satkiri Chakram of Vishnu -- or the six-pointed star, is the perfect seven. In all the old Sanskrit works -- Vedic and Tantrik -- you find the number 6 mentioned more often than the 7 -- this last figure, the central point being implied, for it is the germ of the six and their matrix . . . the central point standing for seventh, and the circle, the Mahakasha -- endless space -- for the seventh Universal Principle. In one sense, both are viewed as Avalokitesvara, for they are respectively the Macrocosm and the microcosm. The interlaced triangles -- the upper pointing one -- is Wisdom concealed, and the downward pointing one -- Wisdom revealed (in the phenomenal world). The circle indicates the bounding, circumscribing quality of the All, the Universal Principle which, from any given point expands so as to embrace all things, while embodying the potentiality of every action in the Cosmos. As the point then is the centre round which the circle is traced -- they are identical and one, and though from the standpoint of Maya and Avidya -- (illusion and ignorance) -- one is separated from the other by the manifested triangle, the 3 sides of which represent the three gunas -- finite attributes. In symbology the central point is Jivatma (the 7th principle), and hence Avalokitesvara, the Kwan-Shai-yin, the manifested "Voice" (or Logos), the germ point of manifested activity; -- hence -- in the phraseology of the Christian Kabalists "the Son of the Father and Mother," and agreeably to ours -- "the Self manifested in Self -- Yih-sin, the "one form of existence," the child of Dharmakaya (the universally diffused Essence), both male and female. Parabrahm or "Adi-Buddha" while acting through that germ point outwardly as an active force, reacts from the circumference inwardly as the Supreme but latent Potency. The double triangles symbolize the Great Passive and the Great Active; the male and female; Purusha and Prakriti. Each triangle is a Trinity because presenting a triple aspect. The white represents in its straight lines: Gnanam -- (Knowledge); Gnata -- (the Knower); and Gnayam -- (that which is known). The black-form, colour, and substance, also the creative, preservative, and destructive forces and are mutually correlating, etc., etc. . . . . . . every thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world and becomes an active entity by associating itself -- coalescing, we might term it -- with an elemental; that is to say with one of the semi-intelligent forces of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence, a creature of the mind's begetting, for a longer or shorter period proportionate with the original intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus, a good thought is perpetuated as an active beneficent power; an evil one as a maleficent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space with a world of his own, crowded with the offsprings of his fancies, desires, impulses, and passions, a current which reacts upon any sensitive or and nervous organisation which comes in contact with it in proportion to its dynamic intensity. The Buddhist calls this his "Skandha," the Hindu gives it the name of "Karma"; the Adept evolves these shapes consciously, other men throw them off unconsciously. . . . . . . The human brain is an exhaustless generator of the most refined quality of cosmic force, out of the low, brute energy of nature; and the complete adept has made himself a centre from which irradiate potentialities that beget correlations upon correlations through Aeons to come. This is the key to the mystery of his being able to project into and materialise in the visible world the forms that his imagination has constructed out of inert cosmic matter in the invisible world. The adept does not create anything new, but only utilises and manipulates materials which nature has in store around him; a material which throughout eternities has passed through all the forms; he has but to choose the one he wants and recall it into objective existence. . . . What have we, the disciples of the true Arhats, of esoteric Buddhism and of Sang-gyas to do with the Shasters and Orthodox Brahmanism? There are 100 of thousands of Fakirs, Sannyasis and Saddhus leading the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, on the path of error, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even hear of us. Their forefathers have driven away the followers of the only true philosophy upon earth away from India and now, it is not for the latter to come to them but to them to come to us if they want us. Which of them is ready to become a Buddhist, a Nastika as they call us? . . . Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions attracts millions of foreign influences, living entities and powerful agents around them, with which we would have to use more than ordinary exercise of power to drive them away. We do not choose to do so. We do not find it either necessary or profitable to lose our time waging war to the unprogressed Planetaries who delight in personating gods and sometimes well known characters who have lived on earth. There are Dhyan-Chohans and "Chohans of Darkness," not what they term devils but imperfect "Intelligences" who have never been born on this or any other earth or sphere no more than the "Dhyan Chohans" have and who will never belong to the "builders of the Universe," the pure Planetary Intelligences, who preside at every Manvantara while the Dark Chohans preside at the Pralayas. . . . as all in this universe is contrast . . . so the light of the Dhyan Chohans and their pure intelligence is contrasted by the "Ma-Mo Chohans" -- and their destructive intelligence. These are the gods the Hindus and Christians and Mahomed and all others of bigoted religions and sects worship; and so long as their influence is upon their devotees we would no more think of associating with or counteracting them in their work. . . . From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Sat May 05 15:13:40 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36629 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 22:13:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 22:13:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 22:13:38 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id r.bfc.16995934 (52317) for ; Sat, 5 May 2007 18:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail-da13 (webmail-da13.webmail.aol.com [205.188.212.208]) by ciaaol-d01.mail.aol.com (v115.11) with ESMTP id MAILCIAAOLD017-cc5d463d016a2da; Sat, 05 May 2007 18:12:58 -0400 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:12:58 -0400 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI In-Reply-To: <93988.41935.qm@web52104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-MB-Message-Type: User MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 25698 Received: from 67.173.106.24 by webmail-da13.sysops.aol.com (205.188.212.208) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 05 May 2007 18:12:58 -0400 Message-Id: <8C95D79AC10A25B-C0-4F29@webmail-da13.sysops.aol.com> X-AOL-IP: 205.188.212.208 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.139.137 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: What is happening in the real world X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958; y=kVLFPaOsSRmcGP-sx0EUZkmfK46ovfub-678cyLvJBCEsak17uU X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40544 Hmm, reading your article, the following two things came to me: The Tribula= tion and The Rapture. The period will be seven years of tribulation, follow= ed by the Ascension. Seems possible to me, though I do not subscribe to the= se Christian theories. =20 Marie =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: silva_cass@yahoo.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 9:09 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: What is happening in the real world Any opinions on this? A Singularity in Time The pace of life is forever spe= eding up. Technological breakthroughs spread through society in years rathe= r than centuries. Calculations that would have taken decades are now made i= n minutes. Communication that used to take months happens in seconds. In al= most every area of life, change is occurring faster and faster.=20 Yet, this acceleration is not confined to modern times. Medieval architectu= re and agriculture, for instance, varied very little over the period of a c= entury. But even then change occurred much faster than it did in prehistori= c times. Stone Age tools remained unchanged for thousands of years.=20 Nor is this quickening confined to humanity; it is a pattern that stretches= back to the dawn of life on Earth. The first simple lifeforms evolved near= ly four billion years ago. Multicellular life appeared a billion or so year= s ago. Vertebrates with central nervous systems, several hundred million ye= ars ago. Mammals appeared tens of millions of years ago. The first hominids= stood on the planet a couple of million years ago; homo sapiens, a few hun= dred thousand years ago. Language and tool-use emerged tens of thousands of= years ago. Civilization, the movement into towns and cities, started a few= thousand years ago. The Industrial Revolution began three centuries ago. F= inally, the Information Revolution is but a few decades old. Why Does Evolution Accelerate? The reason for this acceleration is that eac= h new development is, so to speak, standing on the shoulders of what has co= me before. A good example is the advent of sexual reproduction some 1.5 bil= lion years ago. Until that time cells, reproduced by splitting into two, ea= ch of the new =E2=80=9Csisters=E2=80=9D being exact clones of the original.= With sexual reproduction, two cells came together, shared genetic informat= ion and produced offspring containing a combination of their genes. it no l= onger took many generations for one genetic difference to arise. Difference= s now occurred in every generation, speeding evolution a thousandfold. A more recent example is the transition from the Industrial Age to the Info= rmation Age. When it came to manufacturing computers, we did not need to re= invent factories or global distribution systems; that expertise had already= been gained. We had simply to apply it to the production of computers. Thu= s the Information Revolution established itself much faster.=20 This pattern is set to continue in the future=E2=80=94each new phase requir= ing a fraction of the time required in the previous phase. In the future, w= e might expect the same amount of change we've seen in the last twenty year= s take place in years rather than decades.=20 It is difficult, therefore, to predict what the world will be like in ten o= r twenty years. Two hundred years ago no one predicted we would have teleph= ones or movies, let alone cell phones or the Internet. Just twenty years ag= o, very few of us had any notion of the WorldWide Web, or of how dramatical= ly it would change our lives. Similarly, who knows what new breakthroughs o= r developments will be transforming our lives ten years from now? Approaching a Singularity So where is all this leading? Some people think w= e are headed toward what is called a =E2=80=9Csingularity.=E2=80=9D This is= the term that mathematicians give to a point when an equations breaks down= and ceases to have any useful meaning. The rules change. Something complet= ely different happens. A simple example of a singularity occurs if you try to divide a number by z= ero. If you divide by smaller and smaller numbers, the results will be larg= er and larger numbers. But if you divide something by zero you get infinity= , which is not a number in the everyday sense. The equation has broken down= .=20 The idea that there might be a singularity in human development was first s= uggested by the mathematician Vernor Vinge, and subsequently by others, mos= t notably Ray Kurzweil in his book The Singularity Is Near. They argue that= if computing power keeps doubling every eighteen months, as it has done fo= r the last fifty years, then sometime in the 2020s there will be computers = that can equal the performance of the human brain. From there, it is only a= small step to a computer that can surpass the human brain. There would the= n be little point in our designing future computers; ultra-intelligent mach= ines would be able to design better ones, and do so faster.=20 What happens then is a big question. Some propose that humans would become = obsolete; machines would become the vanguard of evolution. Others think the= re would be a merging of human and machine intelligence=E2=80=94downloading= our minds into computers, perhaps. The only thing we can confidently predi= ct is that this would be a complete break from the patterns of the past. Ev= olution would have moved into a radically new realm. But this transition, as major as it would be, would not yet be true singula= rity in the mathematical sense. Evolution=E2=80=94whether human, machine, o= r a synthesis of the two=E2=80=94would continue at an ever-increasing pace.= Development timescales would continue to shorten, from decades to years, t= o months, to days. Before long, they would approach zero. The rate of chang= e would then become infinite. We would have reached a true mathematical sin= gularity.=20 Timewave Zero and 2012 The idea that humanity is heading towards a point of= infinitely rapid change was explored by Terence McKenna in his book The In= visible Landscape. He developed a mathematical fractal function, which he c= alled the "timewave", that appeared to match the overall rate of ingression= of novelty in the world. (=E2=80=9CIngression of novelty=E2=80=9D is a ter= m coined by the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead to denote new forms or d= evelopments coming into existence). This timewave is not a smooth curve, bu= t one that has peaks and troughs corresponding to the peaks and troughs of = the rate of ingression of novelty across human history. The most significant characteristic of McKenna's timewave is that its shape= repeats itself, but over shorter and shorter intervals of time. The curve = shows a surge in novelty around 500 BC, when Lao Tsu, Plato, Zoroaster, Bud= dha, and others were exerting a major influence on the millennia to come. T= he repeating nature of McKenna's timewave shows the same pattern occurring = in the late 1960s, where it happened sixty-four times faster. In 2010, the = pattern repeats again, sixty-four times faster still. And then, in 2012, si= xty-four times faster still. The timescale is compressed from months to wee= ks, to days, tending very rapidly toward zero: a point McKenna called =E2= =80=9CTimewave Zero.=E2=80=9D But when precisely is this date? McKenna experimented with sliding his curv= e up and down history to look for a best fit. Eventually, he chose December= 22, 2012. At the time, he did not know that the Mayan Calendar also ended = its 5,124 year cycle one day earlier. McKenna himself was not overly attach= ed to the date; he confided that he would be intrigued, come 2012, to see w= hether his conjectures about infinite novelty would indeed prove correct. S= adly, he passed away in 2000. Personally, I am not so concerned with what actually will or will not happe= n on that precise date of December 21, 2012. Indeed, almost every predictio= n ever made that related to a specific date failed to materialize. I am mor= e interested in where this accelerating pattern may be taking us, and its m= ind-boggling implications=E2=80=94whether they occur in 2012, or some other= time.=20 Limits to Change? As explored in my 1992 book The White Hole in Time (revis= ed as Waking Up in Time), if the ever-accelerating pace of change continues= , we are not going to be evolving for eons into the future. We could see th= e whole of our future evolution=E2=80=94as much development as we can conce= ive of, and more=E2=80=94compressed into a very short time. Within a few ge= nerations, perhaps within our own lifetimes, we could reach the end of our = evolutionary journey. It is often argued that this will never happen because there are limits to = the rate of change. Any growth will eventually reach a plateau, resulting n= ot in an ever-steeper curve, but one that bends over into an S-shape. Population growth is a good example. For thousands of years the human popul= ation has been growing, and growing faster and faster. A thousand years ago= , the world's population numbered around 310 million. This number had doubl= ed by 1600. In 1800, it was approaching one billion, and the doubling time = was down to 150 years. By 1960, it had reached four billion, with a doublin= g time of only thirty years. Since then, however, population growth has slo= wed; the curve has begun to bend over. If current trends continue the human= population will probably stabilize between 10 and 12 billion. Similar S-curves can be found in just about every area of development. For = example, the production of steam locomotives increased rapidly during the f= irst century of the Industrial Revolution, then tapered off in the mid-twen= tieth century as diesel and electric power became more dominant. Or, consid= er the growth of high-speed Internet connections in the USA. The rate of ne= w connections grew rapidly in the first years of this century, and by 2005 = over half of all homes had a high-speed connection. Now, as the saturation = point approaches, the rate of growth of new connections has slowed. However, when we talk about a speeding up of the overall rate of change, we= are not talking of any particular S-curve, but the rate at which successiv= e S-curves stack up. It took population growth thousands of years to reach = its turning point. The Industrial Revolution took two hundred years. High-s= peed Internet connections=E2=80=94less than a decade. So the question is no= t whether any particular growth keeps increasing forever, but whether there= is a limit to the rate of ingression of novelty=E2=80=94whatever its mediu= m at any particular time. Evolving Intelligence One recurring pattern that underlies evolution is an = increasing complexity in the processing of information. DNA code is an info= rmation database, built up over eons. Sexual reproduction was an evolutiona= ry breakthrough in information processing. So was the development of senses= , and later, the central nervous system. The advent of human beings brought= another major development in information processing=E2=80=94symbolic langu= age=E2=80=94allowing us to share our thoughts and experiences with one anot= her. Over the years, human breakthroughs in information technology=E2=80=94= writing, printing, telephony, radio, television, computing, and the Interne= t=E2=80=94have consistently increased our ability to gather, process, organ= ize and utilize information.=20 Organization and utilization of information is the essence of intelligence.= We usually think of intelligence primarily in human terms, and occasionall= y in other animals. But intelligence in its broadest sense has been evolvin= g for billions of years. What is happening today with our own Information R= evolution is but the latest phase of a process that has been going on since= the birth of the universe. So the question of whether there is a limit to the speed of evolution does = not concern the limits of any particular phase of evolution; it is whether = there is a limit to the rate of evolution of intelligence=E2=80=94whatever = form it may take. As far as I can see, there is none. Beyond the Information Age The growth of human information technologies is = taking us rapidly toward a time when all human knowledge will be instantly = available to anyone on the planet, in any medium. This will be a fully func= tional global brain in which the information technologies of television, te= lephone, and WorldWide Web will be seamlessly integrated. The world's audio= and video archives will be as easily accessible as text and images are tod= ay. Search engines will learn from their interactions with people, becoming= increasingly sophisticated in their responses. We will be linked into an e= merging global mind. At this point, the growth rate of human knowledge will be reaching its own = maximum. It too will begin to turn into an S-curve. But knowledge is not th= e end-point of the evolution of intelligence. Many have pointed to a hierar= chy of data, information, knowledge, and wisdom. Information can be defined= as the patterns extracted from raw data. Knowledge is the generalization o= f information, applying findings to other situations. Wisdom determines how= that knowledge is used. It involves discernment and evaluation: Is this de= cision for the better or worse? Will it help or hinder our future well-bein= g?=20 At present, humanity has vast amounts of knowledge, but still very little w= isdom. Without developing wisdom, it is most unlikely we will avoid catastr= ophe. As the inventor-philosopher, Buckminster Fuller repeatedly emphasized= , we are facing our final evolutionary exam. Is the human species fit to su= rvive? Can we wake up sufficiently so that we can use our prodigious powers= for the good of all, and for that of many generations to come? A Half-Awake Species Symbolic language led to another significant step in h= uman intelligence. We used language not only to communicate with each other= , but also within our own minds, i.e. verbal thinking. With this power we c= ould reflect upon our experiences and plan our future. In addition, we coul= d reflect upon the fact that we were aware. We became conscious of consciou= sness itself. We began to wake up to our own inner worlds. At present however, we are only half-awake to who and what we really are. B= ecoming aware of our own selves brought with it a sense of an individual "I= " observing the world and initiating our actions. But just what is this sel= f? It seems so obvious that it is there, but, as many have discovered, it i= s hard to define it or pin it down.=20 When asked =E2=80=9CWho are you?=E2=80=9D most of us will respond with the = various things we identify with=E2=80=94our name, beliefs, occupation, educ= ation, roles, gender, social status, personality, interests. We derive a se= nse of identity from what we have or do in the world, with our history, and= our circumstances. But any such derived identity is conditional, and thus = forever vulnerable. It is continually at the mercy of circumstances, and be= fore long we need to defend or reassert our fragile sense of self. Our basi= c survival programming, designed to ensure our physical survival, is usurpe= d for our psychological survival, leading to many unnecessary and often dys= functional behaviors. In addition, we are only half-awake to our deeper needs and how to attain t= hem. Most of us would like to avoid pain and suffering, and find greater pe= ace and happiness, but we believe that how we feel inside depends on extern= al circumstances. This is true in some cases, for example. if we are suffer= ing because we are cold or hungry. In the modern world, most of us can fulf= ill these demands very easily. The flick of a switch or a trip to the store= usually suffices. But we apply the same thinking to everything else in lif= e. We believe that if we could just get enough of the right things or exper= iences we would finally be happy. This is the root of human greed, our love= of money, our need to control events (and other people); it is the cause o= f much of our fear and anxiety, we worry whether events are going to be the= way we think they should be if we are to be happy. This thinking is also a= t the heart of the many ways we mistreat, and often abuse, our planetary ho= me.=20 The global crisis we are now facing is, at its root, a crisis of consciousn= ess=E2=80=94a crisis born of the fact that we have prodigious technological= powers, but still remain half-awake. We need to awaken to who we are and w= hat we really want. Prophets of Wisdom Throughout human history there have been individuals who= appear to have become fully awake. These are the enlightened ones=E2=80=94= the mystics, seers, saints, rishis, roshis, and lamas who in one way or ano= ther have discovered for themselves the true nature of consciousness. Altho= ugh their discoveries have been expressed in different ways, depending on t= he dominant worldview of their time, the essential message remains remarkab= ly consistent. Aldous Huxley called this the =E2=80=9Cperennial philosophy,= =E2=80=9D the timeless wisdom that has been rediscovered again and again th= rough the ages.=20 The enlightened ones have realized the illusory nature of the concept of a = unique individual self. When we examine our experience closely, delving dee= p into the nature of what we call =E2=80=9CI,=E2=80=9D we find that there i= s nothing there=E2=80=94no thing that is. This sense of =E2=80=9CI-ness=E2= =80=9D that we all know so well, and which has been with us all our lives, = is just our sense of being. It is awareness itself=E2=80=94so familiar, yet= completely intangible. Thus, it cannot be "known" in the ordinary sense. N= ot realizing this, we seek to give our sense of self some form, some substa= nce. We dress it up in various psychological clothes=E2=80=94all the things= we think we are, or would like to think we are. This is the reverse of the= emperor having no clothes. With true self-awareness, one discovers there a= re lots of clothes, but no emperor inside them. Another consistent realization of the awakened ones is that the essential n= ature of mind, uncluttered by worry and chatter, is one of deep ease, joy, = and love. Not recognizing this, most of us look to the world around us to p= rovide us with peace and happiness. But, despite all the messages from mark= eting and advertising industries, things or events do not bring happiness. = On the contrary, our minds are so full of scheming, planning, and worrying = whether or not we will get what we think will make us happy, we seldom expe= rience the peace and ease that lie at our core.=20 When we awaken to our true nature, we are freed from a dependence on the ex= ternal world both for our sense of self and our inner well-being. We become= free to act with more intelligence and compassion, attending to the needs = of the situation at hand rather than the needs of the ego. We can access th= e wisdom that lies deep within us all. This is the next step in evolution o= f intelligence: the transition from amassing knowledge to developing wisdom= .=20 The Dawning of a Wisdom Age Because each new phase of evolving intelligence= takes place in a fraction of the time of the previous phase, we can expect= the dawning of a Wisdom Age to take place in years rather than decades. It= will be standing on the shoulders of the Information Age. Never before have we been able to access so much spiritual wisdom. A centur= y ago, the only spiritual tradition available to most people was the one th= at was indigenous to their own culture. Moreover, with rare exceptions, the= y did not have the benefit of learning from a truly enlightened being. Toda= y, we can access teachings from many different traditions and cultures, dis= cover their common underlying truths, and translate that perennial philosop= hy into the language and terms of our own time. Something completely new is= emerging: a single spiritual teaching that is a distillation of the world'= s wisdom traditions. This is coalescing and being disseminated globally thr= ough a variety of information technologies: books, tapes, Web pages, online= forums, and Internet broadcasts. At the same time, a growing number of people are becoming fully awake, and = proving themselves to be excellent teachers. Many are using the Internet to= share their wisdom and help awaken others. Instruction in practices that f= acilitate awakening are appearing online, and could become much more sophis= ticated. It may even turn out that darshan, the Indian word for a direct tr= ansfer of higher consciousness, can be transmitted via the net. Awakening is often a sudden event. Once a person is ready=E2=80=94the neces= sary groundwork done, the circumstances propitious=E2=80=94the shift can ha= ppen more or less instantaneously. It's possible that research into the neu= rological correlates of spiritual awakening will lead us to methods of prom= oting the process directly. There will likely be other unforeseen discoveri= es or developments that help us free our minds. Whatever they may be, the m= ore we learn how to facilitate a shift in consciousness, the faster it will= happen.=20 As this becomes a mainstream phenomenon, humanity will relate to the world = in wiser, more compassionate ways. Problems would still exist. Global warmi= ng would not suddenly cease; pollution would not evaporate; extinct species= would not suddenly return. On the other hand, we might then have at our di= sposal new technologies that could help us solve the problems we have creat= ed. We can only guess at the ways in which this marriage of high technology= and higher consciousness would play out. We have not been there before. Beyond Wisdom Would this be the endpoint of our evolution? Or would there f= ollow yet another turn of the spiral?=20 Many of the world's mystical traditions maintain that the liberation of the= mind from its attachments is only the first of step of inner awakening. Mo= re universal experiences of mind, and fundamentally different perspectives = of reality, lie beyond. Advanced adepts claim that the world of matter is not real, and that space = and time are not the ultimate reality. Interestingly, this view is in accor= d with modern physics' explorations into the nature of physical reality. Wh= enever we try to pin down the essence of matter, it eludes us. It seems not= hing is there=E2=80=94that is, nothing of any material substance. Nor are s= pace and time absolutes, as we once thought. They are part of a more fundam= ental reality, the spacetime continuum.=20 Perhaps those adepts have already discovered the ultimate nature of reality= =E2=80=94not through digging deeper into its external forms, but through a = penetrating exploration of inner space. If so, our collective destiny may b= e precisely this freedom from the illusion of materiality, from the illusio= n that we exist in space and time.=20 Let's not be too quick to rule out that possibility, merely on the basis th= at it is so divorced from our current reality. If you had told Mozart that = in the future people would own tiny boxes, made from some strange material = that was neither wood nor metal, with two strings coming out of the box, th= at when placed in their ears, would enable them to hear any of his composit= ions as clearly as if they were in a room with an orchestra, would he have = believed you? On the contrary, he would probably have thought you mad. The Omega Point One person who believed our destiny was indeed a collective= spiritual awakening, was the French priest and paleontologist, Pierre Teil= hard de Chardin. Exploring the evolutionary trends towards greater complexi= ty, connectivity, and consciousness, he argued that humanity was moving tow= ards an Omega Point=E2=80=94the final end and goal of evolution. He believed that the universe had been through several major stages of evol= ution, starting with what he called "cosmogenesis,=E2=80=9D the birth of th= e "cosmosphere"; the Universe. Next was geogenesis, the birth of the Earth = (the geosphere). Following that, "biogenesis", the birth of life (the biosp= here). With human beings, there came "noogenesis" and the "noosphere", the = sphere of thought. He predicted that the final stage, the one that led to t= he Omega Point, would be "Christogenesis". This would be the birth of Chris= t consciousness, not in an individual, but in the collective=E2=80=94the sp= iritual birth of humanity as a whole. Teilhard de Chardin believed this Omega Point would happen thousands of yea= rs in the future. Like many others, he did not take into account the implic= ations of ever-accelerating change. In his later years, he commented on the= impact of radio and television in bringing humanity together. Technologies= like these, he said, were bringing the Omega Point much closer. Just befor= e he died, the first computers were being developed. Perceiving the potenti= al of this new technology, he predicted that they too would bring the Omega= Point even closer. If he had lived to see the emergence of the Internet, h= e would probably have realized that the Omega Point could come very soon in= deed. Breakdown or Breakthrough? When we look at what is happening in the world t= oday, it is understandable that we might scoff at the idea of a collective = spiritual breakthrough. The daily news is full of evidence that we are head= ing ever more rapidly towards breakdown rather than breakthrough. That is indeed one likely possibility. I do not want to play down the dire = urgency of the world situation. If we don't make some radical changes, we a= re surely headed for disaster of one kind or another.=20 I also believe that change is possible. If we can develop the wisdom needed= to navigate our way though these turbulent times safely, the potentials ar= e staggering and unimaginable in scope. Let's put our hearts and minds to p= roving that we can pass Buckminster Fuller's final evolutionary exam, and b= ecome a truly magnificent species. We are, after all, our only hope. Date created: 30-Dec-06 The repeating nature of McKenna's timewave shows the same pattern=20 occurring in the late 1960s, where it happened sixty-four times=20 faster. In 2010, the pattern repeats again, sixty-four times faster=20 still. And then, in 2012, sixty-four times faster still. Things are then moving faster? all that is, is moving faster toward=20 some target or place, or reality? a Seneca Indian once told me=20 that the world we live in today is the fifth world. That things move=20 faster in the fifth world and that is why everything is in a hurry=20 today. Everything moves faster in the fifth world. Steve's Note: Things are moving up in frequency, and a higher frequency mea= ns that energy is flowing at a higher rate, and thus things are 'speeded up= ', and manifest thus more quickly!! The timescale is compressed from months to weeks, to days, tending very rap= idly toward zero: a point McKenna called =E2=80=9CTimewave=20 Zero.=E2=80=9D Steve's Note: Well, the idea of the 'Zeropoint' spoken of my McKenna=20 and the Mayans 'end of time' implies to me an 'explosion of=20 consciousness' of alignment and oneness, and understanding as a=20 collective UNITED in one field of understanding. It is the knowing=20 that while you still have a separate consciousness, at the same time=20 you fully understand yourself as the collective world spirit, and all=20 the people that make it up unified!! Well we are four years, and eight months away from 2012. Most of=20 us will be lucky and be alive when that date arrives,.........and we=20 shall see.;) Thank you for sharing --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free fro= m AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Sat May 05 16:00:21 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41087 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 23:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 May 2007 23:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net) (207.69.195.70) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 May 2007 23:00:17 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.255.219.2.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.255.219.2] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1HkTEZ-0001cu-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 05 May 2007 19:00:11 -0400 Message-ID: <463D0C76.9060400@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 19:00:06 -0400 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 207.69.195.70 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Bill Meredith Subject: Re: Theos-World Issues dealing with Theism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763; y=LYHKW2F9dScEKlmlrWUrgjX7nGgp_6G9NNor8OQrlHHWgdYyRFKIbao X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40545 Daniel, I am sending my complete response to the message that you quoted me in part from. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: "Location of God" and other issues dealing with theism, etc. > Bill, you wrote in part: > > "If, when we ask, 'Does God exist?' we mean exist separate from us on > the physical plane as an objective reality then certainly we may use > logic to deny the plausibility of such." > > But why confine the above comment ONLY to the physical plane? The objective physical plane seemed to me to be the sense in which Arthur Osborn was asking the question. > > Does "God" exist SEPARATE from us (as an objective reality?) on some > higher plane of existence? I would say that on the higher planes, which as you know are simply modelled elements of the one continuum that is sometimes refered to as the triune and other times as the seven levels, it is more likely from a logical point of view (again because Osborn evoked logic as the tool to use) that it is 'us' that disappears, so that while it is accurate to surmise that God does not exist separate from us at any location on the continuum, it does not necessarily follow that it is God that does not exist. > > Notice what BAG wrote: > > "MAHA VISHNU IN NOT WITHIN ANY MATERIAL UNIVERSE. HE IS IN THE > MAHATATTVA PORTION OF THE SPIRITUAL SKY, AND THE INFINITE NUMBER OF > FINITE MATERIAL UNIVERSES (LIKE OUR OWN) ARE MANIFEST LIKE BUBBLES > OUT OF THE 'PORES' OF HISBODY. THESE ARE EMPTY UNTIL HE GLANCES ON > THEM. HIS GLANCE IS CALLED SHAMBHU,AND THROUGH THIS LOVING GLANCE, HE > MANIFESTS ALL OF THE FINITE JIVA-SOULS WITHIN EACH FINITE UNIVERSE. > MAHA VISHNU THEN ENTERS INTO EACH UNIVERSE AS GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU, > THE SELF-SACRIFICED COSMIC PURUSHA AND THE PARAMATMA 'HOLY SPIRIT', > LORD OF ALL HEARTS. HE ALSO MANIFESTS HIMSELF AS THE GUNA AVATARAS > BRAHMA, VISHNU AND SHIVA, AND AS INFINITE DIRECT LILA INCARNATIONS AND > 'EMPOWERED' SHAKTYAVESHA INCARNATIONS." > > Compare the above by BAG with one of the images he referred readers > to: > > http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/bimages/garbod.vishnu.GIF > > Should we take what BAG writes in a literal way? No more than we should take what Blavatsky writes in a literal way. Her monads and globes and rounds and races are but a model for her understanding of beness. Whether she got this model from keepers of the ancient models is immaterial to the actual condition of beness. Neither is BA G's model. Both models are useful constructs by the human mind which itself is limited and serves only as a temporary vessel for consciousness. > > Does Vishnu REALLY look like he is depicted in the above image? > > Is "God" really a "male"? > > Does he really have a "body" with "pores"? Does the Monad really send out "monadic rays?" If so, does the Monad continue to exist as a separate objective reality from the ray? I appreciate your reluctance to go near the concept of "personal God", but I am not as offended by monadic rays that view the Monad in that light as you and some others (including HPB) seem to be. I will say though, that the petty triffling that often occurs here over whether a 'real' man can make a teacup materialize runs the risk of personalizing the theosophical masters into gods -- something they did not want. I have pointed out before that once one chooses to believe in the written accounts of others as a substitute for their own personal experience with masters, then an uncertain path seems inevitable. > > Bill, you go on to write: > > ". . . At that location where we fall silent before the ineffable we > may get an intuitive glimpse of God. Such a glimmer may change our > consciousness of being such that we sense that God is the source of > our freedom to ask such questions." > > "If Theosophy is reduced to a dogmatic set of beliefs about the > ineffable, then it is but another religion on the backburner of the > Universe. Of course this is just my opinion and everyone is free to > form their own opinion using whatever tools they have." > > It's good that you bring up these issues, but what about BAG's views > about a "personal God" in light of what I just quoted from you? I don't know about BA G's views except what he has made available here. I did not write to defend BA G's views although I do defend his theosophical right to have and share those views in a forum of mutual respect. The central issue seems to be one of whether we should revere and possibly worship that Monad that sparked the monadic ray that enlightens our beness. BA G seems to be saying that it was from love that the Monad sparked itself into rays and that we should love it because in loving it we love our fellow rays and ourself. I'm not sure theosophy will disagree. I think maybe that the language is simply different. What do you think? > Maybe the Vaishnava views expressed by BAG are ALSO "a dogmatic set > of beliefs about the ineffable." Maybe so. But if they are, it is still theosophy that must strive to be the better path. The better path is the one that does not point to the weakness of other paths as a source of its own strength. > > Yes, I believe in the "ineffable". In fact, I think I > have "experienced" the "ineffable." It is not the thinking function that confirms a glimpse of God. Thought is transcended and when this happens a certainty is revealed that changes ones consciousness of being. To my knowledge, nothing can be thought, or said, or written down, that will undo such a change. But why must one declare that > the "ineffable" MUST BE a "personal God" as apparently BAG was trying > to do? He advocated monotheism and (it appeared to me) abhorred > pantheism. Time and time again he spoke of the PERSONALITY OF GOD OR > THE GODHEAD but never really explained what he meant by using such > phraseology. Again, why must one declare that the "ineffable" MUST NOT BE a "personal God?" Theosophy must accept people and love them where they are if it ever hopes to draw them to its path. This is the greatest error that I see repeated on these lists. Nearly every newcomer is challenged, beaten down, and driven away. I think I know what BA G means by the Godhead. Often I have a better idea what he means than I do what you mean by the title Master and 'real' man in quotes. Still I hang on and read and go where you point because you seem as sure of your position as BA G seems of his. > I got the impression from what BAG wrote that somehow "God" was > separate from you or me or the universe. This is dualism, isn't it? > Please compare Jerry's views on this specfic subject with BAG's. Well God is separate from the personalities that are you and me. Jerry can address dualism far better than I. I shall only offer that any concept of the universe that does not make room for dualism and for the ineffable is not universal after all. > Written in a hurry so excuse any incompleteness on my part. Some very thought provoking comments Daniel. Personally I had a very bad experience with the Christian God in my youth which has caused me to look upon all religion skeptically. I don't think that most of the participants on these lists are in danger of succumbing to the exoteric concepts of salvation and forgiveness. However, the same or similar language can be used to point to the esoteric ideas that underlie these "mass-appeal" concepts. I like to give the other writer the benefit of their own experiences in the language most comfortable to them. Bill > > Daniel > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat May 05 19:16:19 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5388 invoked from network); 6 May 2007 02:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2007 02:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33a.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.214) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2007 02:16:18 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n33.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 02:16:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 02:16:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by t2.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 02:16:15 -0000 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 02:16:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.214 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Was C.W. Leadbeater "humouring" people with a theistic hope?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=hOOJQBHmyw8GtgmvDuQFtyV2hpvy9UnB2cIkeiYB00aL05tdMI_tXCoS X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40546 Was C.W. Leadbeater "humouring"=20 people with a theistic hope???=20=20 -----------------------------------------=20 In an article in THE THEOSOPHIST, June 1919, C.W. Leadbeater wrote: "...we, among ourselves, do not think it is necessary that anyone should intercede for us with God, because we hold that God is a loving Father, that He is already doing the best that can possibly be done under the circumstances for every one of his creatures...." Compare the above with the following excerpts from the letters of Master K.H.: "Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates a capital H....we deny God both as philosophers and as Buddhists...." "You speak of an intelligent and good -- (the attribute is rather unfortunately chosen) - Father, a moral guide and governor of the universe and man....how do you or how can you know that your God is all wise, omnipotent and love-ful, when everything in nature, physical and moral, proves such a being, if he does exist, to be quite the reverse of all you say of him? Strange delusion and one which seems to overpower your very intellect." "I dread the appearance in print of our philosophy as expounded by Mr. H[ume]....He makes of us Agnostics!! We do not believe in God because so far we have no proof, etc. This is preposterously ridiculous....He says that people will not accept the whole truth; that unless we humour them with a hope that there may be a 'loving Father and creator of all in heaven' our philosophy will be rejected a priori. In such a case the less such idiots hear of our doctrines the better for both. If they do not want the whole truth and nothing but the truth, they are welcome. But never will they find us -- (at any rate) -- compromising with, and pandering to public prejudices." When C.W. Leadbeater wrote that "we hold that God is a loving Father", was he [C.W.L.] "humouring" people with a theistic hope??? Was Leadbeater "compromisng with, and pandering to public prejudices"? Daniel http://hpb.cc =20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat May 05 22:32:32 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82462 invoked from network); 6 May 2007 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m46.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2007 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2007 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id x.cf3.f7601b7 (40521); Sun, 6 May 2007 01:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 01:31:33 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 310 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.144.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] Paper: An experimental test of non-local realism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972; y=qqwXFFszHNIscJjumfvwda3eUI1G8-vNW1B_1Itc2JiGDea7cPE X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40547 In a message dated 5/1/07 9:23:47 AM, yanniru@netscape.net writes: > Well Leon, you are a true believer in Einstein. He and Rosen and Poldolsk= y=20 > originally proposed the EPR experiment to prove that quantum mechanics is= =20 > incorrect as nothing can go faster than the speed of light. When the expe= riments=20 > were finally done, it turned out that QM is correct. Yet you seem to beli= eve=20 > still that nothing can go faster than the speed of light. >=20 But that only applies to the physical matter itself, and has no relationshi= p=20 to the higher order fractally involved hyperspace fields that are associate= d=20 with every particle point and material form.=A0 There are no physical thing= s on=20 those higher frequency-energy orders (6 or more) of hyperspace.=A0 But pack= ets of=20 information can travel there at whatever speed is proportional to the highe= r=20 order frequency level of the hyperspace field carrying them.=A0 Therefore, Einstein is correct and QM is wrong -- right down to the=20 indeterminacy that he disagreed with -- which only applies to objective phy= sical=20 observation on the apparently illusory quantum field level...=A0 But has no= =20 relationship to subjective observation of determinate information on the me= taphysical=20 (or should I say "Etheric";-) field level...=A0 Thus, accounting for our in= ner=20 access to mind and memory images, in as precise resolution as our sense=20 mechanisms allow, or our higher levels of zero-point inner perception can d= iscern and=20 discriminate -- which could be almost down to zero.=A0 Thus, as Einstein sa= id,=20 "Imagination (constructive and creative inner vision) IS more important tha= n=20 knowledge." (Referring, I presume, to what we can learn by observation or=20 symbolic description on the objective/physical plane of classical or quantu= m reality.=20 ;-)=A0 > 1. How can a classical argument explain a quantum effect? No other=20 > physicist has been able to. >=20 >=20 How can a quantum effect be considered as separate from the vibrating space= =20 it is composed of?=A0 And, isn't that "space" explained by classical relati= vity=20 theories? Naturally, quantum physicists can't really explain (since they can only=20 describe) a quantum effect... Because they don't recognize the complemetari= ty=20 between classical space and quantum matter.=A0 The primary reason being tha= t they are=20 blind to the real nature of the hyperspace zero-point energies within the=20 quantum vacuum and their origin from the spinergy of metrically empty and=20 inneffable ground SPACE -- which is the Mother-Father of everything in the = universe=20 that came out of the Big Bang.=A0 Father being the creative zero-point=20 consciousness and Mother being its surrounding abstract motion or spin mome= ntum. > 2. Have you read my recent post on selectrons of dark energy being the=20 > basis of a form of consciousness rather than dark matter. >=20 >=20 Yes, but such speculations have no explanatory value with respect to=20 answering the hard questions of; what is consciousness, and where does it c= ome from?=A0=20 Haven't you read all my explanations of why neither light or dark mass-ener= gy=20 or any of their particles or microparticles (which may be the result of=20 opposite spin forces on the two perpendicular or opposite axes of our spher= ical=20 space time continuum) cannot be the cause of ubiquitous nonlocal zero-point= =20 consciousness (i.e., awarenesss, will, etc.) -- which can have no physical = basis=20 whatsoever?=A0 Any claim for such, so far seems to be nothing more than han= d waving=20 nonsense. > 3. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3308109.stm=A0 > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/08/science/08quantum.html?ex=3D1328590800& > en=3Dc727820630ee92b4&ei=3D5088&partner=3Drssnyt&emc=3Drss=A0 > The second reference uses two entangled BEC media. So it's in theory=20 > equivalent to the EPR experiments. >=20 >=20 But what do those experiments have to do with explaining consciousness, min= d,=20 memory, sense mechanisms, etc., or even explaining the transformation,=20 storage, reconstruction and perception of the holographic sensory or memory= image=20 information of consciousness? > =A0 > My personal explanation for the violation of the speed limit is based on= =20 > superstring theory and=A0the hypothesis that the compactified dimensions = produced=20 > during fermion creation maintian entanglement via a thread of them from o= ne=20 > particle to the other. However, split photons would not require ten dimen= sions=20 > for creation of the particle/anti-particle pair. So I guess that falsifie= s=20 > my hypothesis. > =A0 > However, it is the EM waves that are split, not the particle. The EPR=20 > effects only occur when the intensity level of the EM waves are so low th= at the=20 > experiment is in the quantum regime. With high intensity and coherent EM = waves,=20 > there are no quantum effects. The polarizations are pre-determined and=20 > rotating the polarizer of the detector has no effect not predicted from M= axwell's=20 > equations. In the EPR experiments the polarization detector must be rotat= ed=20 > after the photon is split to violate Bell's inequality. That only happens= when=20 > the intensity of the EM waves is so low that we can say the one photon at= a=20 > time is launched. > =A0 > But my personal explanation for the wave/particle duality is that particl= es=20 > do not really exist. They are just a good approximation for what happens = when=20 > particles interact with each other as in detection. > =A0 > But you are correct. There is no scientific explanation for EPR effects. = But=20 > that makes me wonder if Feynman's QED formalism=A0which=20 > includes=A0anti-particles coming back from the future might work to expla= in entanglement. But Bell=20 > must have considered that. > =A0 > I still do not accept your ABC theory because it includes infinities at a= =20 > point (singularities) which are not allowed in physics. However, your=20 > hyperspace concept seems consistent with my belief that our universe (and= all others)=20 > is a 4-d (spacetime) brane embedded in a=A0megaverse 4-d spacetime where = only=20 > gravity exists, an extrapolation of the work of Harvard's Lisa Randall. > =A0 > But even those extra dimensions do not seem to explain entanglement, as f= ar=20 > as I can tell. Your tendency is to say that (for example) hyperspace expl= ains=20 > something without ever specifying the hyperspace mechanism which is the=20 > explanation. This is particularly so with your explanations of consciousn= ess or=20 > intelligence. You say it comes from ABC theory without explaining how or = even=20 > defining what=A0consciousnes or intelligence=A0is. How can a theory predi= ct=20 > something that is not defined in the theory? >=20 >=20 With reference to all the above, my ABC concept does explain the EPR effect= =20 and all the other characteristics of the hyperspace fields (intelligence, m= ind,=20 memory, etc.) as well as consciousness (awareness, will, etc.)... Since, th= e=20 entire basis of the proposition that consciousness and matter are dual=20 properties or aspects of fundamental ground SPACE (that is the source of ev= erything)=20 -- along with the essential conclusion, based on the fundamental zero-point= =20 cyclic spinergy or G-force that all fractally involved fields emanate and=20 ultimately, spherically radiate from, are vibratory in nature... And, there= fore, act=20 electrodynamically (obeying the same fundamental laws of electricity such a= s=20 magnetic inductance, resonance, etc.).=A0 We might even be able to apply=20 Maxwell's laws on these levels using different constants. Therefore, all fields of space in motion, both in hyperspace or configurati= on=20 space, that constitutes the essential nature of all particles and=20 microparticles -- are holographically coenergetic with each other.=A0=A0 Th= us, ABC is=20 explanatory of all those effects, conditions and qualities of matter (and i= ts=20 fundamental wave nature) -- as well as consciousness as a separate aspect o= f=20 zero-point space itself -- by definition alone...=A0 And, besides their hyp= erspace and=20 configuration space geometry's and electrodynamic field interrelationships = for=20 the storage and transfer of encoded holographic information -- there's no n= eed=20 for any conventional scientific explanation... Since, quantum physics is=20 based on an entirely different and false proposition -- that matter is prim= ary and=20 causative while assuming consciousness (awareness, will, etc.) must be=20 epiphenomenal. When physics recognizes this wrong standpoint and accepts this new=20 holographic fractal field paradigm, and that consciousness is a fundamental= property of=20 the zero-point of absolute space, they will then be able to arrive a unifie= d=20 field theory explaining everything that is a mystery to conventional scienc= e --=20 now burdened with a morass of conflicting theories that explain nothing abo= ut=20 the transcendental nature of matter, or the cause and nature of both=20 consciousness and life -- that together, animate matter :-) Leon > =A0 > Richard > =A0 > =A0 > -----Original Message----- > From: leonmaurer@aol.com > To: MindBrain@yahoogroups.com > Cc: yanniru@netscape.net > Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 12:44 AM > Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] Paper: An experimental test of non-local=20 > realism >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 4/30/07 4:46:45 PM, yanniru@netscape.net writes: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Leon, > =A0 > 1. I do not believe Dr Milo Wolff is correct >=20 >=20 > What better rationale is there for explaining wave-particle duality?=A0 >=20 > =A0 > 2. Alan Aspect did not use fermions which require creation of a=20 > particle/anti-particle pair. Fermions cannot be split into such a pair. P= hotons are a=20 > special case. >=20 >=20 > I never said he did.=A0 But he did use photons that were optically split = and=20 > did measure the effects of their quantum entanglement instantaneously ove= r a=20 > great distance...=A0 That was what I was talking about, and trying to exp= lain=20 > through the unity of their common higher order hyperspace fields of=20 > consciousness surrounding their singular zero-point center of awareness/w= ill -- that=20 > cannot be split apart physically.=A0 Of course, that's only a well though= t out=20 > hypothesis based on the ABC model and its new scientific paradigm, assumi= ng=20 > consciousness as a fundamental aspect of primal SPACE out of which comes= =20 > everything, including mass, energy, awareness, will, that are everywhere = in intimate=20 > interrelationship through one medium of information or another. >=20 > =A0 > 3. At Harvard they are able to transmit a light pulse into a medium and h= ave=20 > it leave the medium before it gets there. That's more than instantaneous.= =20 > I'll get you the link if you are interested. >=20 >=20 > Please do.=A0 However I did hear about it.=A0 But, as yet, have not found= the=20 > clear explanation of how they did it and to what law of nature it is attr= ibuted=20 > to.=A0 Personally, I think, there is no real scientific explanation that= =20 > violates the speed limit of a particle mass or information -- other than = possibly=20 > twisting the wave length of a multiply enhanced and retarded light pulse = at a=20 > refractive barrier plane so that the trailing edge appears to pass throug= h=20 > and exit before the leading edge enters, or something like that.=A0 As I = see it,=20 > the experiment's conclusions could very well be the usual smoke and mirro= r=20 > misinterpretation of fundamental reality by some quantum physicists just = to=20 > get a little publicity and a paper published. ;-)=A0 Not that such experi= ments=20 > might not lead to possible hi tech applications in quantum computers or=20 > nanotechnologies, etc.=A0 In fact, they usually do add something to our k= nowledge of=20 > how light optics actually work at micro particle scales or dual transfer= =20 > medium interfaces.=A0 BTW, optical engineering used to be one of my inter= ests when I=20 > was working with professional camera designs and motion picture special=20 > optical effects. >=20 > =A0 > I just do not believe the "standing wave quantum" theory. It's a classica= l=20 > theory and not a quantum theory. >=20 >=20 > What is your authority for that bald statement?=A0 How does that determin= e its=20 > truth or falsity?=A0 What's wrong with describing a quantum particle=20 > classically or otherwise, as the result of a unity between space, energy,= mass, and=20 > motion?=A0 Especially, when it answers questions that quantum theory can'= t get a=20 > reasonable or understandable handle on explaining.=A0 Both special and ge= neral=20 > relativity are also "classical," and not quantum theories.=A0 So what?=A0= Does=20 > that make them wrong?=A0 >=20 > Anyway, I appreciate your acceptance of some of my ideas, although I stil= l=20 > don't know if you agree with the ABC model in general or its fundamental= =20 > premises.=A0 I'm constantly trying to explain new things that come up in= =20 > conventional physics in terms of this model, and I'm glad you gave me the= opportunity to=20 > begin putting into words my thoughts on quantum entanglement.=A0 It's now= =20 > become much clearer in my mind, that the ABC theory is fundamentally corr= ect, and=20 > that someday, hopefully in the near future before I check out, an=20 > acceptable, and peer reviewable scientific theory of everything might evo= lve from it.=20 > :-) >=20 > Best wishes, > Leon >=20 > =A0 > Respectfully, > Richard > =A0 > =A0 > -----Original Message----- > From: LeonMaurer@aol.com > To: yanniru@netscape.net > Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:48 AM > Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] Paper: An experimental test of non-local=20 > realism >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 4/24/07 6:17:43 PM, yanniru@netscape.net writes: >=20 >=20 > > Leon, > >=A0 > > Violations of the fundamental laws of physics: > > 1.Quantum particles are not standing waves >=20 > Check out:=20 > http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Physics-Particle-Wave-Duality-Paradox.htm= =A0 >=20 > http://www.spaceandmotion.com/physics-mechanics-bells-inequality-non-loca= lity-epr.htm >=20 >=20 > > 2. Particle pairs are created together and do not come from splitting a= =20 > single particle >=20 > But their creation together requires lasers and nonlinear crystals for=20 > splitting and sending the particles in opposite directions and then obser= ving the=20 > change of state of one particle instantaneously affecting the same state= =20 > change in the other -- This was proven by Alain Aspect when he tested Bel= l's=20 > inequalities in i975 and later in 1982. These paired particles, are in ef= fect=20 > similar to a single photon that is split by sending it through a partiall= y=20 > silvered mirror forcing the particle to pass through and be reflected at = the same=20 > time.=A0 Although Aspect's molecular crystal prism apparatus was much mor= e=20 > complex than that, so he could make accurate quantum measurements. >=20 > > 3. In addition, particles whose wavefunctions overlap sufficiently > =A0 such as in superconductors and superfluids are entangled, even > =A0 though they do not come from the same particle. Information is > =A0 transmitted instantly in such media without the need for hyperspace, > =A0 which has never been observed anyway. >=20 > There is no proof that the information exchange between the separated=20 > particles -- which apparently is instantaneous, and thus violates the lim= it of=20 > light velocity that precludes such transmission -- is transmitted by any = physical=20 > medium.=A0 Therefore the hyperspace fields are the only alternative for=20 > explaining the action-at-a-distance of physically separated particles. >=20 > As for superfluids and super conductors, they are (like a BE condensate) = in=20 > effect, a single particle and their supposed entanglement (like all the=20 > condensed mass inside a black hole "singularity") is due to the overlap o= f their=20 > formerly separated standing waves, as if they were one singular field.=A0 >=20 > Thus, there is no apparent separation... And the supposed entanglement of= =20 > such separate particles is NOT the same as the entanglement between split= pairs=20 > of single photon particles, as in the Aspect experiment.=A0 >=20 > Of course, the standing wave theory, which is part of the new scientific= =20 > paradigm, that also assumes consciousnes and matter as dual aspects of=20 > fundamental SPACE, also blows all the quantum calculations related to qua= ntum wave=20 > function, wave collapse and decoherence, etc., into a cocked hat.=A0 As F= eynman=20 > said, "Anyone who claims to understand quantum physics is either lying or= =20 > crazy." :-) So, there is no such thing as matter (which is proven to be c= omposed=20 > of pure mass-energy) that independent of fundamental space itself. >=20 > So my ABC theory is as good as anyone else's, meshes perfectly with all o= f=20 > Einstein's relativity and quantum theories, and depends on which physics= =20 > paradigm we are going to believe, and how our reasoning and logic stands = up to=20 > careful scrutiny and well crafted counter arguments or experimental evide= nce.=A0 >=20 > For one thing, no matter what paradigm is considered, pure image or=20 > structural information is carried and transmitted solely on the surfaces = of=20 > electrodynamic fields -- whether they are physical or metaphysical, and w= hether they=20 > are modulated on radiant fields, or on those standing waves encapsulated = in=20 > all forms of mass-energy -- from simple quantum (or sub quantum) particle= s and=20 > complex atoms and molecules, to black holes, etc. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Leon >=20 > > Best wishes, > >=A0 > > Richard >=20 >=20 >=20 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au Sun May 06 03:41:52 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12513 invoked from network); 6 May 2007 10:41:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2007 10:41:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27a.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.243) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2007 10:41:51 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n27.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 10:41:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 10:41:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 10:41:16 -0000 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 10:41:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.243 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.59.13.146 From: "nhcareyta" Subject: Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=193856796; y=KotZK9J25_WU-nUGPecgJC1SdVS1VWS6cmFKtnfij0WocxVP X-Yahoo-Profile: nhcareyta X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40548 Dear All and Cass Cass, I both understand and respect your position that you would=20 prefer to "put the dilemma to bed" as being well considered as usual,=20 kind and generous, and don't wish this posting to be in any way=20 construed as an attempt to draw you into further discussion.=20 That said, please allow me to use some remarks from one of your=20 previous postings to highlight some points which are often raised by=20 others as well and which seem important to me and perhaps to fellow=20 students of T/theosophy. 1) "Even though Leadbeaterism and Besantism et all is not pure=20 theosophy, I imagine it has helped souls by putting them in the right direction,=20 especially Christians." 2) "it (challenging Bishop Leadbeater and his teachings) causes=20 negative energy for theosophy at best, wasted energy at worst." This idea, that the world is a better place as a result of the=20 teachings of Bishop Leadbeater, Dr Besant et al, is very much a moot=20 point that friends and I from the Adyar Society discussed every week=20 for more than a year, some years ago.=20 Subsequently, each of us helped establish the Theosophical Academy=20 where the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers became the=20 focus of our study. Some of the reasons for this included the loss of=20 trust in many of the pronouncements and activities of Bishop=20 Leadbeater and Dr Besant, a recognition that Madame Blavatsky and her=20 teachers had something significantly special and different to say and=20 a growing disillusionment with the Adyar Society, from our perception=20 that it was not an organisation of entirely free speech after all.=20 There were other contributing factors which are somewhat irrelevant=20 to the current discussion. >From my perspective, on balance I believe the Adyar Society and=20 Theosophy in general would have been better off without Bishop=20 Leadbeater and his teachings despite his many works and with many=20 claiming they were initially drawn to the subject through his=20 writings, myself included. Moreover, I have met and shared with many,=20 many Adyar theosophical students who were and/or are fine, upstanding=20 people. I have also met quite a few who were not, as is to be=20 expected in a large organisation. It seems unproductive to fully reiterate Bishop Leadbeater's lies,=20 deceptions and often fanciful, romantic ideas with little basis in=20 fact other than his own illusory sense of authority, as these have=20 been fairly well covered in this forum throughout the past couple of=20 years. However there are some other aspects which dovetail in with=20 the aforementioned which deserve attention.=20 A rationale is often put forward that Bishop Leadbeater's writings=20 helped simplify the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers.=20 But did they really, or did they and their accompanying occult=20 energies actually draw students away from it. In my experience, the=20 overwhelming majority of students who started with Bishop=20 Leadbeater's theosophy i.e. his teachings, his mindset and his=20 energies are still entranced and enamoured by it.=20 His often romanticised ideas and powerfully deceptive energies cause=20 many to become adoring followers, usually blind to demonstrable proof=20 and in such states of denial and defensiveness as to disallow any=20 possibility of a reasoned debate concerning the contradictory nature=20 of his teachings in comparison with those his followers claims he=20 simplified.=20 Whilst this reactive mindset is largely the province of each=20 individual, nevertheless this powerfully influential occult teacher=20 who dishonestly represented another's works has had, and still has a=20 significantly detrimental, ongoing effect on the mindsets of=20 unwitting students as well as on the original Theosophical teachings=20 themselves. For those unaware of the many contradictions between the teachings of=20 Madame Blavatsky and her teachers and those of Bishop Leadbeater and=20 Dr Besant please go to: http://blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm Whatever way we might interpret Madame Blavatsky and her teachers'=20 wishes for their Society and their version of Theosophy, they=20 certainly did not want mesmerised, closed-minded followers. They=20 certainly did not want a "theosophical" church complete with an=20 authoritarian hierarchy. Nor did they want a Bishop or priest acting=20 as intermediary between parishioners and their true selves or the=20 outrageous discrimination afforded women through their disallowance=20 to perform the sacraments because their vehicles were, according to=20 Bishop Leadbeater and his subsequent representatives, unsuited to the=20 task. If Madame Blavatsky had wanted a manifestly simplified version of=20 Theosophy she would have written one. She and her teachers did not=20 want Theosophy simplified. They wanted us to think and to think=20 deeply, further and further into the awesome profundities of nature=20 and the cosmos. They wanted to expand our minds to breaking point and=20 beyond, into the realms of the formless, where we might begin to=20 learn the actual constructs of the cosmos and eventually become=20 cosmocratores.=20 A mind satisfied with simple explanations usually rests on its=20 laurels, feeling secure it has found the truth. This mindset almost=20 inevitably turns these explanations into a dogma and eventually may=20 even become the basis for a church.=20 This is what occurred as a result of Bishop Leadbeater's version of=20 theosophy and his influential mindset. For these and other reasons already stated in previous posts, my=20 perspective for what little it's probably worth, is that Bishop=20 Leadbeater and his teachings caused immeasurable harm to Madame=20 Blavatsky and her teachers' Theosophy, as well as to the Adyar=20 Theosophical Society itself. His legacy and influence in this=20 organisation has always been very strong with high-ranking clergy=20 also filling its positions of seniority. Where there is so much contradiction, dishonesty and deception=20 between teachings it begs the question as to how those in authority=20 can reconcile this. It is for these reasons that I do not think that exposing lies and=20 hypocrisies is promoting negative energies, in fact quite the=20 opposite. As long as there are inquiring students eager to learn=20 about Theosophy I will continue as and where able to offer what I=20 believe to be an honest and fair assessment of the differing versions=20 and motivations.=20 Regards to all Nigel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun May 06 08:32:00 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8903 invoked from network); 6 May 2007 15:30:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2007 15:30:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17c.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.205) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2007 15:30:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n17.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 15:30:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by t3.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 15:30:39 -0000 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:30:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.205 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Boris de Zirkoff on the Theosophical Philosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=vZihOX8Xbrr_cEo7dQxQ8KqPBEWHeDGfalp_Tp15qBMr-3GHDGhBNZv0 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40549 Boris de Zirkoff=20 on the Theosophical Philosophy ...For some years past, a tendency has existed among some=20 [theosophical] students ... to consider theosophy as some sort of=20 generalized approach to truth, a tradition, often somewhat=20=20 uncertain, concerning various aspects of the Universe and man, a=20 system of ideas and concepts which can hardly be defined with any=20 degree of exactness or clarity. It is most likely that this tendency=20 owes its origin to a desire to avoid any dogmatic attitude or the=20 creation of any kind of creed. The motive may have been laudable, but=20 the methods employed have been rather dubious. Read more at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/dezirkoffontheosophy.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au Sun May 06 10:23:35 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7419 invoked from network); 6 May 2007 17:23:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m49.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2007 17:23:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.112) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2007 17:22:59 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n13.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 17:22:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 17:22:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 17:22:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 17:22:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.112 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.59.13.146 From: "nhcareyta" Subject: Re: Boris de Zirkoff on the Theosophical Philosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=193856796; y=WMUfP1X3GSWbPp9D7dWO7G1_1XRSBuozzKze0pIxq0P0fJgo X-Yahoo-Profile: nhcareyta X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40550 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell"=20 wrote: > > Boris de Zirkoff=20 > on the Theosophical Philosophy >=20 > ...For some years past, a tendency has existed among some=20 > [theosophical] students ... to consider theosophy as some sort of=20 > generalized approach to truth, a tradition, often somewhat=20=20 > uncertain, concerning various aspects of the Universe and man, a=20 > system of ideas and concepts which can hardly be defined with any=20 > degree of exactness or clarity. It is most likely that this=20 tendency=20 > owes its origin to a desire to avoid any dogmatic attitude or the=20 > creation of any kind of creed. The motive may have been laudable,=20 but=20 > the methods employed have been rather dubious. >=20 > Read more at: >=20 > http://blavatskyarchives.com/dezirkoffontheosophy.htm >=20 > Daniel > http://hpb.cc > Dear Daniel Thank you once again for your recent excellent compilations as you=20 attempt to demonstrate the hopes of Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatmas=20 in terms of their vision for, and version of, Theosophy. It is often stated by some that Theosophy in its essence is=20 indefinable. So it is. From this they propose that therefore anything=20 can be listed under the banner of Theosophy. This is clearly not the case as it is its essence which is=20 indescribable, not the teachings. If one accepts that Madame=20 Blavatsky brought forth the modern teachings, as one surely must, it=20 must be fair to assume that she and her teachers had a particular=20 form in mind. Bishop Leadbeater was not chosen to bring it forth,=20 neither was Rudolf Steiner nor Alice Bailey. Their teachings are all=20 dependent upon the original Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and the=20 Mahatmas. Where these writers and teachers change the original form,=20 from whence do they get their authority? If they think that Madame=20 Blavatsky made many mistakes, as surely they must to contradict so=20 many of her teachings, what proof do they have to demonstrate where=20 she was wrong? Madame Blavatsky relied on her teachers for much of her information.=20 These teachers underwent rigorous training where their visions were=20 checked and double checked again and again by their teachers and=20 those who had gone before them. From where do Bishop Leadbeater et al=20 get their information. It can't be from the Mahatmas as they state,=20 because they thoroughly contradict them at almost every turn. So they=20 must get it from their own minds. This might be, however true=20 Theosophy requires much more evidence and rigor than this. Much of=20 Madame Blavatsky's science has been validated by modern science as=20 ably demonstrated by Leon Maurer on many occasions. Bishop Leadbeater=20 and Dr Besant have only one scientist in history who claims some of=20 their work in the book Occult Chemistry has some validity. However it=20 has been ignored by every other legitimate scientist in the field and=20 indeed roundly condemned by Professor J Michael McBride from the=20 Dept. of Chemistry, Yale University who states "From beginning to end=20 Occult Chemistry is a tale of deception and gullibility." http://www.chem.yale.edu/~chem125/125/history99/8Occult/OccultAtoms.ht ml In saying all of the above, those of us who bring these discussions=20 forward are usually condemned and labelled as Blavatsky dogmatists.=20 They claim anyone can be in possession of Theosophical knowledge. So=20 they can. All we ask is that they demonstrate and validate it clearly=20 and rigorously as Madame Blavatsky has in her works. As regards being=20 dogmatists, nothing could be further from the truth. Madame Blavatsky=20 did not wish us to believe anything she wrote. A true Theosophist=20 believes nothing spoken or written, at least until they have=20 presented it to the bar of their own intelligence and after thorough=20 investigation and due diligence are prepared to accept it until=20 further insight convinces them otherwise. This is the nature and=20 operation of the open mind. This was Madame Blavatsky's method. The=20 same cannot be said for most others. Where she explained her ideas=20 often through dozens of associated examples and analogies, others=20 merely issued authoritarian pronouncements derived from their own=20 self-perceived authority. Thank you again Daniel. Your compilations are invaluable. Best wishes Nigel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun May 06 13:52:53 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84761 invoked from network); 6 May 2007 20:52:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m49.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2007 20:52:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n32b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.212) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2007 20:52:49 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n32.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 20:52:39 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.86] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 20:52:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.86] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 May 2007 20:52:39 -0000 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 20:52:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.212 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: TheosophyLinks.Net --- Updated X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=TTwvyEDI5le8lE8PCaQ4R_Vx_Vhr-Hm_HRybfvyCvZsZg8ap8mwjIOj6 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40551 TheosophyLinks.Net: Websites and Internet Resources=20 on H.P. Blavatsky, the Mahatmas & Theosophy See: http://theosophylinks.net I've updated and added a good number of sites and resources to the=20 above page. If I have left off any good resource, let me know. You may need to click on the "refresh" button of your browser to see=20 the latest version of this webpage. Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun May 06 20:17:33 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12262 invoked from network); 7 May 2007 03:16:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 May 2007 03:16:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.106) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 May 2007 03:16:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 17661 invoked by uid 60001); 7 May 2007 03:15:55 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: lIAS_uQVM1lNIMoTVPZvPEQ4.Jr0VqTkSdXZNAt2gwNPsV2Bp7GKmsslENKb5Uht9JH637uTXhW0FsA2.lLRJpDzgUFT0f6DMuSorzTLCHd08LpwaO7d7Aoa6H8uzDokW2IgMeXPLwaidztT8ytRNC0KZPTCYs5DD5cdhsudhp9N7gvJCCbKcFjPnfDsVwUpcGF. Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 06 May 2007 20:15:54 PDT Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:15:54 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <60418.16464.qm@web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.106 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=VY815g3OJENijUU-K-hf7B0po4yQgx7e4wMBMzlQOnvzzUdKqw X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40552 I understand where you are coming from Nigel and admire your motives. Perhaps I should have written that Leadbeaterism may have put some Christians on the path of pseudo-theosophy, which is a tad preferable to dogmatic christianity. Although I take your point that CWL introduced dogma into theosophy, at least the precepts were more eastern in thinking. Luckily for me when I was first introduced to CWL's works I found them to be too authoritarian and egotistical in tone, so I never placed much value on what he was saying, and this was before I even understand that their were conflicts in teachings between HPB and CWL. From what I can gather those that have interpreted HPB in this century have done so using her teachings at their base, e.g. Purucker,Gardner, Pratt. I guess I am writing from a sense of frustration, the world is currently in the throws of some enormous changes resulting in fear and confusion for many and I believe that when energy is directed to things of the past it prevents us from focussing on the now, and in particular what we can do as theosophists to assist others in this current aura of fear. When I think about CWL, I can feel my blood pressure rise and I am sure, attract many negative thoughts to myself. Cheers Cass nhcareyta wrote: Dear All and Cass Cass, I both understand and respect your position that you would prefer to "put the dilemma to bed" as being well considered as usual, kind and generous, and don't wish this posting to be in any way construed as an attempt to draw you into further discussion. That said, please allow me to use some remarks from one of your previous postings to highlight some points which are often raised by others as well and which seem important to me and perhaps to fellow students of T/theosophy. 1) "Even though Leadbeaterism and Besantism et all is not pure theosophy, I imagine it has helped souls by putting them in the right direction, especially Christians." 2) "it (challenging Bishop Leadbeater and his teachings) causes negative energy for theosophy at best, wasted energy at worst." This idea, that the world is a better place as a result of the teachings of Bishop Leadbeater, Dr Besant et al, is very much a moot point that friends and I from the Adyar Society discussed every week for more than a year, some years ago. Subsequently, each of us helped establish the Theosophical Academy where the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers became the focus of our study. Some of the reasons for this included the loss of trust in many of the pronouncements and activities of Bishop Leadbeater and Dr Besant, a recognition that Madame Blavatsky and her teachers had something significantly special and different to say and a growing disillusionment with the Adyar Society, from our perception that it was not an organisation of entirely free speech after all. There were other contributing factors which are somewhat irrelevant to the current discussion. >From my perspective, on balance I believe the Adyar Society and Theosophy in general would have been better off without Bishop Leadbeater and his teachings despite his many works and with many claiming they were initially drawn to the subject through his writings, myself included. Moreover, I have met and shared with many, many Adyar theosophical students who were and/or are fine, upstanding people. I have also met quite a few who were not, as is to be expected in a large organisation. It seems unproductive to fully reiterate Bishop Leadbeater's lies, deceptions and often fanciful, romantic ideas with little basis in fact other than his own illusory sense of authority, as these have been fairly well covered in this forum throughout the past couple of years. However there are some other aspects which dovetail in with the aforementioned which deserve attention. A rationale is often put forward that Bishop Leadbeater's writings helped simplify the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers. But did they really, or did they and their accompanying occult energies actually draw students away from it. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of students who started with Bishop Leadbeater's theosophy i.e. his teachings, his mindset and his energies are still entranced and enamoured by it. His often romanticised ideas and powerfully deceptive energies cause many to become adoring followers, usually blind to demonstrable proof and in such states of denial and defensiveness as to disallow any possibility of a reasoned debate concerning the contradictory nature of his teachings in comparison with those his followers claims he simplified. Whilst this reactive mindset is largely the province of each individual, nevertheless this powerfully influential occult teacher who dishonestly represented another's works has had, and still has a significantly detrimental, ongoing effect on the mindsets of unwitting students as well as on the original Theosophical teachings themselves. For those unaware of the many contradictions between the teachings of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers and those of Bishop Leadbeater and Dr Besant please go to: http://blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm Whatever way we might interpret Madame Blavatsky and her teachers' wishes for their Society and their version of Theosophy, they certainly did not want mesmerised, closed-minded followers. They certainly did not want a "theosophical" church complete with an authoritarian hierarchy. Nor did they want a Bishop or priest acting as intermediary between parishioners and their true selves or the outrageous discrimination afforded women through their disallowance to perform the sacraments because their vehicles were, according to Bishop Leadbeater and his subsequent representatives, unsuited to the task. If Madame Blavatsky had wanted a manifestly simplified version of Theosophy she would have written one. She and her teachers did not want Theosophy simplified. They wanted us to think and to think deeply, further and further into the awesome profundities of nature and the cosmos. They wanted to expand our minds to breaking point and beyond, into the realms of the formless, where we might begin to learn the actual constructs of the cosmos and eventually become cosmocratores. A mind satisfied with simple explanations usually rests on its laurels, feeling secure it has found the truth. This mindset almost inevitably turns these explanations into a dogma and eventually may even become the basis for a church. This is what occurred as a result of Bishop Leadbeater's version of theosophy and his influential mindset. For these and other reasons already stated in previous posts, my perspective for what little it's probably worth, is that Bishop Leadbeater and his teachings caused immeasurable harm to Madame Blavatsky and her teachers' Theosophy, as well as to the Adyar Theosophical Society itself. His legacy and influence in this organisation has always been very strong with high-ranking clergy also filling its positions of seniority. Where there is so much contradiction, dishonesty and deception between teachings it begs the question as to how those in authority can reconcile this. It is for these reasons that I do not think that exposing lies and hypocrisies is promoting negative energies, in fact quite the opposite. As long as there are inquiring students eager to learn about Theosophy I will continue as and where able to offer what I believe to be an honest and fair assessment of the differing versions and motivations. Regards to all Nigel --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun May 06 20:36:19 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52825 invoked from network); 7 May 2007 03:36:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 May 2007 03:36:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.109) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 May 2007 03:36:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 13681 invoked by uid 60001); 7 May 2007 03:35:56 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: lgvsiYAVM1mMcJKdfJLnJXg4xJm4.Xwt3elSyHCg Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 06 May 2007 20:35:55 PDT Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:35:55 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2513.13673.qm@web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.109 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:5:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Fwd: [Think-Aboutit] Must read: Mark of the Beast Microchip [PowerPoint show] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=MfkfS1MHBWGdNT_4YHzT1MS0kHkiASjvxE-SQ6P_PtGN9zKq7w X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40553 Note: forwarded message attached. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonh@xs4all.nl Mon May 07 09:02:13 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: ton.den.hartog@tonh.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47263 invoked from network); 7 May 2007 16:02:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 May 2007 16:02:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl) (194.109.24.29) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 May 2007 16:02:10 -0000 Received: from donald64 (tonh.xs4all.nl [213.84.241.105]) by smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id l47G1qqF061058 for ; Mon, 7 May 2007 18:01:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ton.den.hartog@tonh.net) Message-ID: <061c01c790c1$042993b0$0100000a@donald64> To: References: Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 18:01:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Originating-IP: 194.109.24.29 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Ton den Hartog" From: "Ton den Hartog" Subject: HPB Collected Writings version 2.0 with all Greec and Hebrew now filled in X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85652351; y=Li4mT6Fhll1OCbm2GxrwV7Om5--z_t7Gt0Kv3xOlUTZYEVE03Bei X-Yahoo-Profile: tondenhartog Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40554 http://www.tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ Hi, it was a LOT of work but I finally finished to have all Greec and Hebrew in the CWO web-version. I scanned in all Greec and Hebrew from the book, I first planned tu use Unicode bat that was WAY too much work and also would have created a lot of unreliable conversions as I know little or nothing abot these languages and also using the righ accents is not so easy with Unicode, often not supported and often of high impotance in what HPB it telling is her writings.I may not have found all Greek and Hebrew yet as the conversion could not be made from the CDROM but I am prettty sure I have found 99% of them. The relative high visitors statistics motivated to take this last action that took a lot of effort. Now I hope some of you are interested in the Greec and Hebrew. Not every article has it but for example http://www.tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/articles/v8/y1887_030.htm was a hard one to crack for sure :-). Have fun with it ! Ton den Hartog [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Sven04@comhem.se Mon May 07 13:05:30 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: Sven04@comhem.se X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 573 invoked from network); 7 May 2007 20:05:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 May 2007 20:05:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net) (80.76.149.212) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 May 2007 20:05:29 -0000 Received: from c83-253-204-194.bredband.comhem.se ([83.253.204.194]:1206 helo=sveinn-fp1krz97.comhem.se) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id 1Hl9Ja-0003uc-4o for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 07 May 2007 21:56:11 +0200 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:55:02 +0200 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: X-Authenticated: u13406688@ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 642a83e90429fda63e43a5f21f796494 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1Hl9Ja-0003uc-4o. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1Hl9Ja-0003uc-4o 5b94c617999af86384a50d7c61eda808 X-Originating-IP: 80.76.149.212 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Sveinn Freyr Subject: The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=288703295; y=vNkBSC70bJ278TirXFqDZiuvAHiUNV64biBo0oOFvsc1 X-Yahoo-Profile: ari343 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40555 This controversial letter "No. 88"? Is by my=20 opinion not a letter written by an adept. It is a note scrap that should not have been issued and designated=20 to master K.H. This scrap note has done much harm. Sveinn Freyr ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Now we come to what is probably the most=20 controversial letter ... it is not a letter but some notes ... These =93Notes=94 have caused some people to reject=20 the whole occult philosophy because of the denial of the traditional concept of God. The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Letter No. 88=20 1 (ML-10) Copied by APS Sept. 28, 1882 Now we come to what is probably the most=20 controversial letter in the volume. Actually, it=20 is not a letter but some notes made by the=20 Mahatma K.H. on what Hume called a =93Preliminary=20 Chapter on God,=94 intended as a preface to a book=20 he was writing on Occult Philosophy. The copy in=20 the British Museum is in Sinnett=92s handwriting. These =93Notes=94 have caused some people to reject=20 the whole occult philosophy because of the denial=20 of the traditional concept of God. The student is=20 therefore asked to withhold judgment. NOTES BY K.H. ON A =93PRELIMINARY CHAPTER=94 HEADED=20 =93GOD=94 BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION=20 OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). Received at Simla, Sept. 1882. Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, ... least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates=20 a capital H. Our philosophy falls under the=20 definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the=20 science of effects by their causes and of causes=20 by their effects, and since it is also the=20 science of things deduced from first principle,=20 as Bacon defines it, before we admit any such=20 principle we must know it, and have no right to=20 admit even its possibility. Your whole=20 explanation is based upon one solitary admission=20 made simply for argument=92s sake in October last. You were told that our knowledge was limited to=20 this our solar system: ergo as philosophers who=20 desired to remain worthy of the name we could not=20 either deny or affirm the existence of what you=20 termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being=20 of some sort beyond the limits of that solar=20 system. But if such an existence is not absolutely impossible, ... yet unless the uniformity of nature=92s law breaks=20 at those limits we maintain that it is highly=20 improbable. Nevertheless we deny most=20 emphatically the position of agnosticism in this=20 direction, and as regards the solar system. Our=20 doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms=20 or denies, for it never teaches but that which it=20 knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God=20 both as philosophers and as Buddhists. We know there are planetary and other spiritual=20 lives, and we know there is in our system no such=20 thing as God, either personal or impersonal.=20 Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable=20 law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya,=20 ignorance based upon the great delusion. The word =93God=94 was invented to designate the=20 unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 cause and causes we are in a position to=20 maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. 1 Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett=92s handwriting. =96 ED. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon May 07 15:01:25 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71574 invoked from network); 7 May 2007 22:01:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.71) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 May 2007 22:01:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.116) by mta13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 May 2007 22:01:25 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n14.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 May 2007 22:00:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 May 2007 22:00:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 May 2007 22:00:58 -0000 Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:00:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.116 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Re: The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=Cg0atvz39UG3ydD3iZR32KdQaLxY6VyFpVz2Iqi3H59SSCq83wZN6FVW X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40556 Sveinn Freyr, You write: ------------------------------------------------ This controversial letter "No. 88"? Is by my opinion not a letter written by an adept. It is a note scrap that should not have been issued and designated to master K.H. This scrap note has done much harm. ------------------------------------------------- I am interested to know your thinking on why this letter "has done=20 much harm".=20=20 Personally I have studied this letter NO. 88 in great detail and=20 have compared it to other RELEVANT letters in the Mahatma Letters as=20 well as to what one can find in HPB's THE SECRET DOCTRINE and HPB's=20 other writings. You state that it was NOT written by an adept, the Master KH. I see=20 no good reason for coming to the conclusion you make above.=20 Consider the following. In ANOTHER letter NO. 93B (4th chrono ed.) Master KH refers to these=20 very notes that you reject: ----------------------------------------------------- 5) It certainly does, and I have touched upon the subject long ago.=20 In my notes on Mr. Hume's MSS., "On God" -- that he kindly adds to=20 our Philosophy, something the latter had never contemplated before -- the subject is mentioned abundantly. Has he refused you a look into=20 it? For you -- I may enlarge my explanations, but not before you=20 have read what I say of the origin of good and evil on those=20 margins. Quite enough was said by me for our present purposes.=20 Strangely enough I found a European author -- the greatest=20 materialist of his times, Baron d'Holbach -- whose views coincide=20 entirely with the views of our philosophy. When reading his Essais=20 sur la Nature, I might have imagined I had our book of Kiu-ti before=20 me. As a matter of course and of temperament our Universal Pundit=20 will try to catch at those views and pull every argument to pieces.=20 So far he only threatens me to alter his Preface and not to publish=20 the philosophy under his own name. Cuneus cuneum, tradit: I begged=20 him not to publish his essays at all.=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Notice KH's words: "...that he kindly adds to our Philosophy...." Compare the subject matter mentioned in this letter with the subject=20 matter of Letter NO. 88. So is this letter 93 B also not from an adept, Master KH? And I repeat AGAIN what Master KH wrote in yet ANOTHER letter: -------------------------------------------------------- I dread the appearance in print of our philosophy as expounded by=20 Mr. H[ume]. I read his three essays or chapters on God (?)=20 cosmogony and glimpses of the origin of things in general, and had=20 to cross out nearly all. He makes of us Agnostics!! We do not=20 believe in God because so far, we have no proof, etc. This is=20 preposterously ridiculous: if he publishes what I read, I will have=20 H.P.B. or Djual Khool deny the whole thing; as I cannot permit our=20 sacred philosophy to be so disfigured. He says that people will not=20 accept the whole truth; that unless we humour them with a hope that=20 there may be a 'loving Father and creator of all in heaven' our=20 philosophy will be rejected a priori. In such a case the less such=20 idiots hear of our doctrines the better for both. If they do not=20 want the whole truth and nothing but the truth, they are welcome.=20 But never will they find us -- (at any rate) -- compromising with,=20 and pandering to public prejudices. -----------------------------------------------------------=20 The above extract shows that the Master is referring to the same=20 subject matter of Letter NO. 88. And ALSO consider Letter No. 90 in the Chrono. Ed. Again the=20 subject matter in Letter No. 90 is much the same as in Letter NO. 88. And once again COMPARE the contents of Letter NO. 88 and the other=20 letters I've quoted from with THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL elucidation=20 by KH to Sinnett: ---------------------------------------------------------- ....And thus according to Mr. Massey's philosophical conclusion we=20 have no God? He is right -- since he applies the name to an extra- cosmic anomaly, and that we, knowing nothing of the latter, find --=20 each man his God -- within himself in his own personal, and at the=20 same time, -- impersonal Avalokiteswara..... --------------------------------------------------------- Notice the words: "...He is right --- since he applies the name to=20 an extra-cosmic anomaly...." I would suggest that Hume was doing the same thing as Mr. Massey. And what is Avalokiteswara? In yet ANOTHER letter, Master KH elucidates the term: ------------------------------------------------------- ...Avalokita Isvar literally interpreted means "the Lord that is=20 seen." "Iswara" implying moreover, rather the adjective than the=20 noun, lordly, self-existent lordliness, not Lord. It is, when=20 correctly interpreted, in one sense "the divine Self perceived or=20 seen by Self," the Atman or seventh principle ridded of its mayavic=20 distinction from its Universal Source -- which becomes the object of=20 perception for, and by the individuality centred in Buddhi, the=20 sixth principle, -- something that happens only in the highest state=20 of Samadhi. This is applying it to the microcosm. In the other sense=20 Avalokitesvara implies the seventh Universal Principle, as the=20 object perceived by the Universal Buddhi "Mind" or Intelligence=20 which is the synthetic aggregation of all the Dhyan Chohans, as of=20 all other intelligences whether great or small, that ever were, are,=20 or will be.... ...Avalokitesvara is both the unmanifested Father and the manifested=20 Son, the latter proceeding from, and identical with, the other; --=20 namely, the Parabrahm and Jivatman, the Universal and the=20 individualized seventh Principle, -- the Passive and the Active, the=20 latter the Word, Logos, the Verb.... ------------------------------------------------------------- Notice the reference to Atman....and now compare these extracts=20 about Avalokitesvara with the following extracts from Letter No. 88. I willsuggest that part of the key to understanding what the Master=20 writes in Letter NO. 88 is to be found in these choice extracts from=20 that very letter: ---------------------------------------------------- ...If people are willing to accept and to regard as God our ONE LIFE=20 immutable and unconscious in its eternity they may do so and thus=20 keep to one more gigantic misnomer. But then they will have to say=20 with Spinoza that there is not and that we cannot conceive any other=20 substance than God; or as that famous and unfortunate philosopher=20 says in his fourteenth proposition, "practer Deum neque dari neque=20 concepi potest substantia" -- and thus become Pantheists.... . . We are not Adwaitees, but our teaching respecting the one life=20 is identical with that of the Adwaitee with regard to Parabrahm. And=20 no true philosophically brained Adwaitee will ever call himself an=20 agnostic, for he knows that he is Parabrahm and identical in every=20 respect with the universal life and soul -- the macrocosm is the=20 microcosm and he knows that there is no God apart from himself, no=20 creator as no being. Having found Gnosis we cannot turn our backs on=20 it and become agnostics. ----------------------------------------------------------- Much could be added to the above quotes from H.P.B.'s THE SECRET=20 DOCTRINE. I would suggest that the underlying theme is consistent....from=20 letter to letter, from extract to extract.... etc. Each quote, each extract fits together like jig saw puzzle pieces to=20 show the whole picture. In other words, there is similarity/identity of key ideas and themes. See also what Mrs. Hanson and Mr. Linton wrote in the 2nd edition of=20 THE READERS GUIDE TO THE MAHATMA LETTERS on the subject matter of=20 letter NO. 88.=20 I would also suggest that you read and study the relevant extracts I=20 provided from the Encylopaedia Brittannica. See my posting at for=20 these extracts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/40539 These extracts help to give necessary background material that may=20 help one to see what the Master is writing about.... Of course, each student and reader will have to determine if Letter=20 No. 88 is from an adept or not, but it appears that the subject=20 matter is consistent as one goes from one Mahatma Letter to another=20 and as one then compares what is said on the same topic for example=20 in THE SECRET DOCTRINE. More could be written but I stop here. This is a rough draft that I have not been able to proofread as I=20 would normally do. Hope some of this helps. Daniel http://hpb.cc --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Sveinn Freyr wrote: > > This controversial letter "No. 88"? Is by my=20 > opinion not a letter written by an adept. It is a note scrap > that should not have been issued and designated=20 > to master K.H. This scrap note has done much harm. >=20 > Sveinn Freyr >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > "Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > controversial letter ... it is not a letter but some notes ... >=20 > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial > of the traditional concept of God. >=20 > The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment." >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > Letter No. 88=20 > 1 (ML-10) Copied by APS Sept. 28, 1882 >=20 > Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > controversial letter in the volume. Actually, it=20 > is not a letter but some notes made by the=20 > Mahatma K.H. on what Hume called a "Preliminary=20 > Chapter on God," intended as a preface to a book=20 > he was writing on Occult Philosophy. The copy in=20 > the British Museum is in Sinnett's handwriting. > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial=20 > of the traditional concept of God. The student is=20 > therefore asked to withhold judgment. >=20 > NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED=20 > "GOD" BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION=20 > OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). >=20 > Received at Simla, Sept. 1882. >=20 > Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, ... >=20 > least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates=20 > a capital H. Our philosophy falls under the=20 > definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the=20 > science of effects by their causes and of causes=20 > by their effects, and since it is also the=20 > science of things deduced from first principle,=20 > as Bacon defines it, before we admit any such=20 > principle we must know it, and have no right to=20 > admit even its possibility. Your whole=20 > explanation is based upon one solitary admission=20 > made simply for argument's sake in October last. >=20 > You were told that our knowledge was limited to=20 > this our solar system: ergo as philosophers who=20 > desired to remain worthy of the name we could not=20 > either deny or affirm the existence of what you=20 > termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being=20 > of some sort beyond the limits of that solar=20 > system. But if such an existence is not absolutely impossible, ... >=20 > yet unless the uniformity of nature's law breaks=20 > at those limits we maintain that it is highly=20 > improbable. Nevertheless we deny most=20 > emphatically the position of agnosticism in this=20 > direction, and as regards the solar system. Our=20 > doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms=20 > or denies, for it never teaches but that which it=20 > knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God=20 > both as philosophers and as Buddhists. >=20 > We know there are planetary and other spiritual=20 > lives, and we know there is in our system no such=20 > thing as God, either personal or impersonal.=20 > Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable=20 > law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya,=20 > ignorance based upon the great delusion. >=20 > The word "God" was invented to designate the=20 > unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 > either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 > them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 > prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 > cause and causes we are in a position to=20 > maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... >=20 >=20 > Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. >=20 > 1 Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. =96 ED. >=20 >=20 From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon May 07 18:38:36 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19702 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 01:38:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.71) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 01:38:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.104) by mta13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 01:38:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 26926 invoked by uid 60001); 8 May 2007 01:38:13 -0000 Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 07 May 2007 18:38:13 PDT Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 18:38:13 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <763233.26551.qm@web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.104 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=-VzyQ2aoOHiGiwvLVQGDd80xNNMLhqmuYdTm0Gtrnf5tOXil4g X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40557 This is from a christian organization. I wonder if it has an relevance. Cass Properties of the number 88=20=20 --------------------------------- Symbolism=20=20=20=20 The number eight being the symbol of the infinity, 88 symbolizes the d= ouble directions of the infinity of the universe, that is to say the infini= tely small and the infinitely large. =20=20 The number 88 is the numbered representation of the cross swastika - t= hree times cranked. Symbolically, this cross represents the eternity or the= cosmic Christ, and it is allotted to the number 16. And, by theosophical r= eduction, 8 + 8 gives 16. General=20=20=20=20 It is the period of revolution, in number of days, of the Mercury plan= et around the Sun. =20=20 Among the abbreviations used in telegraphy and in telephony, and which= are employed universally, we find the number 88 meaning "love and kisses". Gematria=20=20=20=20 By using as the correspondence table A=3D26, B=3D25, ..., Z=3D1, we fi= nd that, in French, "Dieu Un" (God One) gives 88. Occurrence=20=20=20=20 The cardinal number 7 is used 88 times in the NT. =20=20 The sum of the occurrences of all the numbers of the New Testament mul= tiple of 5 and written under their cardinal form gives 88. And the sum of t= he occurrences of all numbers multiple of 13, which are in the Bible of Jer= usalem or in the NRSV, gives also 88. =20=20 Sveinn Freyr wrote: This controversial letter "No. 88"? Is by my=20 opinion not a letter written by an adept. It is a note scrap that should not have been issued and designated=20 to master K.H. This scrap note has done much harm. Sveinn Freyr ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Now we come to what is probably the most=20 controversial letter ... it is not a letter but some notes ... These =93Notes=94 have caused some people to reject=20 the whole occult philosophy because of the denial of the traditional concept of God. The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Letter No. 88=20 1 (ML-10) Copied by APS Sept. 28, 1882 Now we come to what is probably the most=20 controversial letter in the volume. Actually, it=20 is not a letter but some notes made by the=20 Mahatma K.H. on what Hume called a =93Preliminary=20 Chapter on God,=94 intended as a preface to a book=20 he was writing on Occult Philosophy. The copy in=20 the British Museum is in Sinnett=92s handwriting. These =93Notes=94 have caused some people to reject=20 the whole occult philosophy because of the denial=20 of the traditional concept of God. The student is=20 therefore asked to withhold judgment. NOTES BY K.H. ON A =93PRELIMINARY CHAPTER=94 HEADED=20 =93GOD=94 BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION=20 OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). Received at Simla, Sept. 1882. Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, ... least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates=20 a capital H. Our philosophy falls under the=20 definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the=20 science of effects by their causes and of causes=20 by their effects, and since it is also the=20 science of things deduced from first principle,=20 as Bacon defines it, before we admit any such=20 principle we must know it, and have no right to=20 admit even its possibility. Your whole=20 explanation is based upon one solitary admission=20 made simply for argument=92s sake in October last. You were told that our knowledge was limited to=20 this our solar system: ergo as philosophers who=20 desired to remain worthy of the name we could not=20 either deny or affirm the existence of what you=20 termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being=20 of some sort beyond the limits of that solar=20 system. But if such an existence is not absolutely impossible, ... yet unless the uniformity of nature=92s law breaks=20 at those limits we maintain that it is highly=20 improbable. Nevertheless we deny most=20 emphatically the position of agnosticism in this=20 direction, and as regards the solar system. Our=20 doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms=20 or denies, for it never teaches but that which it=20 knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God=20 both as philosophers and as Buddhists. We know there are planetary and other spiritual=20 lives, and we know there is in our system no such=20 thing as God, either personal or impersonal.=20 Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable=20 law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya,=20 ignorance based upon the great delusion. The word =93God=94 was invented to designate the=20 unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 cause and causes we are in a position to=20 maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. 1 Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett=92s handwriting. =96 ED. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=09=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From plcoles1@yahoo.com.au Mon May 07 18:41:36 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: plcoles1@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54791 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 01:41:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 01:41:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19d.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.244) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 01:41:24 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.83] by n19.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 01:41:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.78] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 01:41:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 01:41:11 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.244 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 139.230.245.21 From: "plcoles1" Subject: Re: The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=237271074; y=nWGEArKC6h0KsacJbISgdOsVIXjBErbC1MGYR6HE4OOMVj4 X-Yahoo-Profile: plcoles1 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40558 Hi Sveinn, My impression is that in terms of philosophy, from what I can see,=20 this letter is consistent with the rest of the teachings given in=20 both the Secret Doctrine and the Mahatma Letters. However as theosophical students we don't have to agree with what is=20 said, we can interpret the concept of "God" however we choose to. Personally I see the term "God" as a symbol and try not to get too=20 hung up on it as a word the problem is that as a concept it can make=20 a separation in terms of creator and created and therefore can be=20 used in a seperative sense. However most mystics use the term in a very inclusive and Unifying=20 sense, I personally have a great love of the mystical tradition and=20 so see "God" more in that sense. Cheers Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Sveinn Freyr wrote: > > This controversial letter "No. 88"? Is by my=20 > opinion not a letter written by an adept. It is a note scrap > that should not have been issued and designated=20 > to master K.H. This scrap note has done much harm. >=20 > Sveinn Freyr >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > "Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > controversial letter ... it is not a letter but some notes ... >=20 > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial > of the traditional concept of God. >=20 > The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment." >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > Letter No. 88=20 > 1 (ML-10) Copied by APS Sept. 28, 1882 >=20 > Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > controversial letter in the volume. Actually, it=20 > is not a letter but some notes made by the=20 > Mahatma K.H. on what Hume called a "Preliminary=20 > Chapter on God," intended as a preface to a book=20 > he was writing on Occult Philosophy. The copy in=20 > the British Museum is in Sinnett's handwriting. > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial=20 > of the traditional concept of God. The student is=20 > therefore asked to withhold judgment. >=20 > NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED=20 > "GOD" BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION=20 > OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). >=20 > Received at Simla, Sept. 1882. >=20 > Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, ... >=20 > least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates=20 > a capital H. Our philosophy falls under the=20 > definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the=20 > science of effects by their causes and of causes=20 > by their effects, and since it is also the=20 > science of things deduced from first principle,=20 > as Bacon defines it, before we admit any such=20 > principle we must know it, and have no right to=20 > admit even its possibility. Your whole=20 > explanation is based upon one solitary admission=20 > made simply for argument's sake in October last. >=20 > You were told that our knowledge was limited to=20 > this our solar system: ergo as philosophers who=20 > desired to remain worthy of the name we could not=20 > either deny or affirm the existence of what you=20 > termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being=20 > of some sort beyond the limits of that solar=20 > system. But if such an existence is not absolutely impossible, ... >=20 > yet unless the uniformity of nature's law breaks=20 > at those limits we maintain that it is highly=20 > improbable. Nevertheless we deny most=20 > emphatically the position of agnosticism in this=20 > direction, and as regards the solar system. Our=20 > doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms=20 > or denies, for it never teaches but that which it=20 > knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God=20 > both as philosophers and as Buddhists. >=20 > We know there are planetary and other spiritual=20 > lives, and we know there is in our system no such=20 > thing as God, either personal or impersonal.=20 > Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable=20 > law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya,=20 > ignorance based upon the great delusion. >=20 > The word "God" was invented to designate the=20 > unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 > either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 > them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 > prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 > cause and causes we are in a position to=20 > maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... >=20 >=20 > Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. >=20 > 1 Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. =96 ED. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon May 07 18:53:25 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17537 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 01:53:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 01:53:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.104) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 01:53:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 32232 invoked by uid 60001); 8 May 2007 01:53:06 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: jYcdXPQVM1nNv.5dNeP.pWcCF1HKl11I_7AbSy.rxWvMtGTWu_KX2H.Zf56TNP5m7HJIqUFbEYR4DJu0vERpJrfr1wR4SjedD0xa3o8KtZSVjxtggaA- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 07 May 2007 18:53:06 PDT Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 18:53:06 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <759518.30218.qm@web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.104 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=63OLR_m6ORjcYwXPORcWwuz7IEwEUL-5Yaiwflr5PFS6Qr40fg X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40559 The word "God" was invented to designate the=20 > unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 > either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 > them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 > prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 > cause and causes we are in a position to=20 > maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... Cass: Perry, a question, does this mean that there is no "god" or "gods"= behind/within us? =20=20=20 Cass plcoles1 wrote: Hi Sveinn, My impression is that in terms of philosophy, from what I can see,=20 this letter is consistent with the rest of the teachings given in=20 both the Secret Doctrine and the Mahatma Letters. However as theosophical students we don't have to agree with what is=20 said, we can interpret the concept of "God" however we choose to. Personally I see the term "God" as a symbol and try not to get too=20 hung up on it as a word the problem is that as a concept it can make=20 a separation in terms of creator and created and therefore can be=20 used in a seperative sense. However most mystics use the term in a very inclusive and Unifying=20 sense, I personally have a great love of the mystical tradition and=20 so see "God" more in that sense. Cheers Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Sveinn Freyr wrote: > > This controversial letter "No. 88"? Is by my=20 > opinion not a letter written by an adept. It is a note scrap > that should not have been issued and designated=20 > to master K.H. This scrap note has done much harm. >=20 > Sveinn Freyr >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > "Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > controversial letter ... it is not a letter but some notes ... >=20 > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial > of the traditional concept of God. >=20 > The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment." >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > Letter No. 88=20 > 1 (ML-10) Copied by APS Sept. 28, 1882 >=20 > Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > controversial letter in the volume. Actually, it=20 > is not a letter but some notes made by the=20 > Mahatma K.H. on what Hume called a "Preliminary=20 > Chapter on God," intended as a preface to a book=20 > he was writing on Occult Philosophy. The copy in=20 > the British Museum is in Sinnett's handwriting. > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial=20 > of the traditional concept of God. The student is=20 > therefore asked to withhold judgment. >=20 > NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED=20 > "GOD" BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION=20 > OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). >=20 > Received at Simla, Sept. 1882. >=20 > Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, ... >=20 > least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates=20 > a capital H. Our philosophy falls under the=20 > definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the=20 > science of effects by their causes and of causes=20 > by their effects, and since it is also the=20 > science of things deduced from first principle,=20 > as Bacon defines it, before we admit any such=20 > principle we must know it, and have no right to=20 > admit even its possibility. Your whole=20 > explanation is based upon one solitary admission=20 > made simply for argument's sake in October last. >=20 > You were told that our knowledge was limited to=20 > this our solar system: ergo as philosophers who=20 > desired to remain worthy of the name we could not=20 > either deny or affirm the existence of what you=20 > termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being=20 > of some sort beyond the limits of that solar=20 > system. But if such an existence is not absolutely impossible, ... >=20 > yet unless the uniformity of nature's law breaks=20 > at those limits we maintain that it is highly=20 > improbable. Nevertheless we deny most=20 > emphatically the position of agnosticism in this=20 > direction, and as regards the solar system. Our=20 > doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms=20 > or denies, for it never teaches but that which it=20 > knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God=20 > both as philosophers and as Buddhists. >=20 > We know there are planetary and other spiritual=20 > lives, and we know there is in our system no such=20 > thing as God, either personal or impersonal.=20 > Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable=20 > law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya,=20 > ignorance based upon the great delusion. >=20 > The word "God" was invented to designate the=20 > unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 > either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 > them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 > prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 > cause and causes we are in a position to=20 > maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... >=20 >=20 > Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. >=20 > 1 Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. =96 ED. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au Mon May 07 20:54:56 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18213 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 03:54:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 03:54:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.25) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 03:54:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n31.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 03:52:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.91] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 03:52:43 -0000 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 03:52:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <60418.16464.qm@web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.25 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 124.168.94.224 From: "nhcareyta" Subject: Re: Theos-World Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=193856796; y=ShaSTKoatnblnd0Z_d8-DvLG3vDZeoxKT1r4iF0RRNdrtApF X-Yahoo-Profile: nhcareyta X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40560 Dear Cass Thank you once again for your comments. You write: "Perhaps I should have written that Leadbeaterism may have put some=20 Christians on the path of pseudo-theosophy, which is a tad preferable=20 to dogmatic christianity. Although I take your point that CWL=20 introduced dogma into theosophy, at least the precepts were more=20 eastern in thinking." Yes, good points...but only just a tad for me:) You write: "Luckily for me when I was first introduced to CWL's works I found=20 them to be too authoritarian and egotistical in tone, so I never=20 placed much value on what he was saying." If only I had been so perceptive! As a young male used to authority,=20=20 each of these aspects with its accompanying egocentricities, my=20 mindset resonated well with his writings at first. And herein lies=20 another of the more insidious aspects of his work. Some men may feel=20 comfortable with it as it asserts the "authority" of maleness. Some=20 women may feel comfortable if they're looking for a "knight in=20 shining armour."=20 And so the age-old stereotypical paradigm is once again re-inforced=20 despite it being a woman who originally brought us the teachings. I say "some" and "may" as certainly not all are attracted for these=20 reasons.=20 You write: =20 "I guess I am writing from a sense of frustration, the world is=20 currently in the throws of some enormous changes resulting in fear=20 and confusion for many..."=20 Agreed and well understood. From my perspective, the doomsdayers and=20 apocalyptic merchants are speculative promoters of fear and are doing=20 great harm to the mindsets of many. Such energies can contribute to=20 the effect of "self-fulfilling prophecy" for those so consumed. This=20 fear-based living in the future can completely distort or even=20 destroy the only important time there is, the here and now.=20 You write: "...and I believe that when energy is directed to things of the past=20 it prevents us from focussing on the now..." Yes, true indeed. However, if Bishop Leadbeater's influence was only=20 in the past it might not be such a problem. In my experience though,=20 the vast majority of Adyar Society members who are remotely=20 interested in theosophy are predominantly followers of his version.=20 Even many current members I know are still devoted to his work. And=20 it is for this reason I feel the need to occasionally expose his=20 frauds and fallacies for the sake of those who may be unaware, to at=20 least provide them with an alternative perspective. Moreover, I am=20 only too cognisant of how difficult it has been for me and others to=20 unlearn some of his distortions. His energies have a long-lasting=20 effect particularly where they are still promoted to this day and=20 will be for long years into the future. You write:=20=20=20 "When I think about CWL, I can feel my blood pressure rise and I am=20 sure, attract many negative thoughts to myself." Yes, I can relate to this too. It gives me no pleasure at all to=20 speak about and challenge his work. In fact I often feel a sense of=20 uncleanness afterwards. I guess the positives for me include the opportunity to be unattached=20 to those negative emotions (not easy!), the extreme wariness of all=20 forms of authority and the aforementioned opportunity to warn others=20 of the many and varied traps the Bishop sets for the unwary mind. Thanks again Cass Best wishes Nigel=20=20=20=20 > nhcareyta wrote: > Dear All and Cass >=20 > Cass, I both understand and respect your position that you would=20 > prefer to "put the dilemma to bed" as being well considered as=20 usual,=20 > kind and generous, and don't wish this posting to be in any way=20 > construed as an attempt to draw you into further discussion.=20 >=20 > That said, please allow me to use some remarks from one of your=20 > previous postings to highlight some points which are often raised=20 by=20 > others as well and which seem important to me and perhaps to fellow=20 > students of T/theosophy. >=20 > 1) "Even though Leadbeaterism and Besantism et all is not pure=20 > theosophy, I > imagine it has helped souls by putting them in the right direction,=20 > especially > Christians." >=20 > 2) "it (challenging Bishop Leadbeater and his teachings) causes=20 > negative energy for theosophy at best, wasted energy at worst." >=20 > This idea, that the world is a better place as a result of the=20 > teachings of Bishop Leadbeater, Dr Besant et al, is very much a=20 moot=20 > point that friends and I from the Adyar Society discussed every=20 week=20 > for more than a year, some years ago.=20 > Subsequently, each of us helped establish the Theosophical Academy=20 > where the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers became the=20 > focus of our study. Some of the reasons for this included the loss=20 of=20 > trust in many of the pronouncements and activities of Bishop=20 > Leadbeater and Dr Besant, a recognition that Madame Blavatsky and=20 her=20 > teachers had something significantly special and different to say=20 and=20 > a growing disillusionment with the Adyar Society, from our=20 perception=20 > that it was not an organisation of entirely free speech after all.=20 > There were other contributing factors which are somewhat irrelevant=20 > to the current discussion. >=20 > From my perspective, on balance I believe the Adyar Society and=20 > Theosophy in general would have been better off without Bishop=20 > Leadbeater and his teachings despite his many works and with many=20 > claiming they were initially drawn to the subject through his=20 > writings, myself included. Moreover, I have met and shared with=20 many,=20 > many Adyar theosophical students who were and/or are fine,=20 upstanding=20 > people. I have also met quite a few who were not, as is to be=20 > expected in a large organisation. > It seems unproductive to fully reiterate Bishop Leadbeater's lies,=20 > deceptions and often fanciful, romantic ideas with little basis in=20 > fact other than his own illusory sense of authority, as these have=20 > been fairly well covered in this forum throughout the past couple=20 of=20 > years. However there are some other aspects which dovetail in with=20 > the aforementioned which deserve attention.=20 >=20 > A rationale is often put forward that Bishop Leadbeater's writings=20 > helped simplify the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers.=20 > But did they really, or did they and their accompanying occult=20 > energies actually draw students away from it. In my experience, the=20 > overwhelming majority of students who started with Bishop=20 > Leadbeater's theosophy i.e. his teachings, his mindset and his=20 > energies are still entranced and enamoured by it.=20 > His often romanticised ideas and powerfully deceptive energies=20 cause=20 > many to become adoring followers, usually blind to demonstrable=20 proof=20 > and in such states of denial and defensiveness as to disallow any=20 > possibility of a reasoned debate concerning the contradictory=20 nature=20 > of his teachings in comparison with those his followers claims he=20 > simplified.=20 > Whilst this reactive mindset is largely the province of each=20 > individual, nevertheless this powerfully influential occult teacher=20 > who dishonestly represented another's works has had, and still has=20 a=20 > significantly detrimental, ongoing effect on the mindsets of=20 > unwitting students as well as on the original Theosophical=20 teachings=20 > themselves. >=20 > For those unaware of the many contradictions between the teachings=20 of=20 > Madame Blavatsky and her teachers and those of Bishop Leadbeater=20 and=20 > Dr Besant please go to: > http://blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm >=20 > Whatever way we might interpret Madame Blavatsky and her teachers'=20 > wishes for their Society and their version of Theosophy, they=20 > certainly did not want mesmerised, closed-minded followers. They=20 > certainly did not want a "theosophical" church complete with an=20 > authoritarian hierarchy. Nor did they want a Bishop or priest=20 acting=20 > as intermediary between parishioners and their true selves or the=20 > outrageous discrimination afforded women through their disallowance=20 > to perform the sacraments because their vehicles were, according to=20 > Bishop Leadbeater and his subsequent representatives, unsuited to=20 the=20 > task. >=20 > If Madame Blavatsky had wanted a manifestly simplified version of=20 > Theosophy she would have written one. She and her teachers did not=20 > want Theosophy simplified. They wanted us to think and to think=20 > deeply, further and further into the awesome profundities of nature=20 > and the cosmos. They wanted to expand our minds to breaking point=20 and=20 > beyond, into the realms of the formless, where we might begin to=20 > learn the actual constructs of the cosmos and eventually become=20 > cosmocratores.=20 >=20 > A mind satisfied with simple explanations usually rests on its=20 > laurels, feeling secure it has found the truth. This mindset almost=20 > inevitably turns these explanations into a dogma and eventually may=20 > even become the basis for a church.=20 > This is what occurred as a result of Bishop Leadbeater's version of=20 > theosophy and his influential mindset. >=20 > For these and other reasons already stated in previous posts, my=20 > perspective for what little it's probably worth, is that Bishop=20 > Leadbeater and his teachings caused immeasurable harm to Madame=20 > Blavatsky and her teachers' Theosophy, as well as to the Adyar=20 > Theosophical Society itself. His legacy and influence in this=20 > organisation has always been very strong with high-ranking clergy=20 > also filling its positions of seniority. > Where there is so much contradiction, dishonesty and deception=20 > between teachings it begs the question as to how those in authority=20 > can reconcile this. >=20 > It is for these reasons that I do not think that exposing lies and=20 > hypocrisies is promoting negative energies, in fact quite the=20 > opposite. As long as there are inquiring students eager to learn=20 > about Theosophy I will continue as and where able to offer what I=20 > believe to be an honest and fair assessment of the differing=20 versions=20 > and motivations.=20 >=20 > Regards to all > Nigel >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20=20=09=20=20=20=20=20=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From mkr777@gmail.com Mon May 07 21:08:34 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38376 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 04:08:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m44.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 04:08:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ag-out-0708.google.com) (72.14.246.250) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 04:08:33 -0000 Received: by ag-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id 8so3046678agc for ; Mon, 07 May 2007 21:08:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=UYmNE9suY70PvGaC4Cindh1XCSAf9B4Sse5GengMHKwipO1ZlYnJNWB99drA6E0JXA+pHhGuGwe5Ohb5SV9KAIbNEWBDb+X1+5XOxonY34A8HhA7vNMT4hePR//hWtSFxfehVfgN480/Q9rYwGmKEWfzhw5O+SPn+FnReXHhHYg= Received: by 10.90.115.9 with SMTP id n9mr5883947agc.1178597311789; Mon, 07 May 2007 21:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.89.19 with HTTP; Mon, 7 May 2007 21:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 23:08:31 -0500 To: "Theosophy Study List" , theos-L@yahoogroups.com, theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, theos-news@list.vnet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 72.14.246.250 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: White Lotus Day X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636; y=k16KnWERSYpaDwBMlaJbb7BGqNXuc0csQhW3wzLPjs6HnOccDb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40561 Tomorrow, May 8 is celebrated as the White Lotus Day, to commemorate the passing of HPB. On this day, it is appropriate to remember the contribution of HPB who was responsible for the modern presentation of Ancient Wisdom. All of us who are fortunate enough to be exposed to Theosophy should remember her with gratitude, since Theosophy has shown the way to many of us and at least I am cognizant of how it has changed my attitude toward life and our fellow beings. On this day, traditionally in branches there is a reading of Bhagavat Gita and Light of Asia and poor are fed. It is very significant that HPB stated her wish that poor be fed. She did not say we all should be meditating or get involved in psychic endeavors. I thought that it is appropriate that all of us be reminded of White Lotus Day. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From plcoles1@yahoo.com.au Mon May 07 21:10:22 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: plcoles1@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48707 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 04:10:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m46.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 04:10:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18c.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.206) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 04:10:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n18.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 04:05:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.86] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 04:05:37 -0000 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 04:05:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <759518.30218.qm@web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.206 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 139.230.245.21 From: "plcoles1" Subject: Theos-World Re: The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=237271074; y=j5R7qVtFFjty26xGj_QwRjsVp-FGCR7FSwcHLP1tPYOUJJw X-Yahoo-Profile: plcoles1 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40562 Hi Cass, If we see gods / goddesses in terms of symbolic representations I=20 don't see any conflict. Tantric Buddhist practice uses these symbolic forms and so does the=20 Hindu Tantras. The problem is as I see it, is when we concretise the symbol as=20 Joseph Campbell speaks about. Perry=20=20=20 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > The word "God" was invented to designate the=20 > > unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 > > either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 > > them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 > > prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 > > cause and causes we are in a position to=20 > > maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... >=20 > Cass: Perry, a question, does this mean that there is no "god"=20 or "gods" behind/within us? >=20=20=20=20 > Cass >=20 > plcoles1 wrote: > Hi Sveinn, > My impression is that in terms of philosophy, from what I can see,=20 > this letter is consistent with the rest of the teachings given in=20 > both the Secret Doctrine and the Mahatma Letters. >=20 > However as theosophical students we don't have to agree with what=20 is=20 > said, we can interpret the concept of "God" however we choose to. >=20 > Personally I see the term "God" as a symbol and try not to get too=20 > hung up on it as a word the problem is that as a concept it can=20 make=20 > a separation in terms of creator and created and therefore can be=20 > used in a seperative sense. >=20 > However most mystics use the term in a very inclusive and Unifying=20 > sense, I personally have a great love of the mystical tradition and=20 > so see "God" more in that sense. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Perry >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Sveinn Freyr wrote: > > > > This controversial letter "No. 88"? Is by my=20 > > opinion not a letter written by an adept. It is a note scrap > > that should not have been issued and designated=20 > > to master K.H. This scrap note has done much harm. > >=20 > > Sveinn Freyr > >=20 > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >=20 > > "Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > > controversial letter ... it is not a letter but some notes ... > >=20 > > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial > > of the traditional concept of God. > >=20 > > The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment." > >=20 > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >=20 > > Letter No. 88=20 > > 1 (ML-10) Copied by APS Sept. 28, 1882 > >=20 > > Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > > controversial letter in the volume. Actually, it=20 > > is not a letter but some notes made by the=20 > > Mahatma K.H. on what Hume called a "Preliminary=20 > > Chapter on God," intended as a preface to a book=20 > > he was writing on Occult Philosophy. The copy in=20 > > the British Museum is in Sinnett's handwriting. > > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial=20 > > of the traditional concept of God. The student is=20 > > therefore asked to withhold judgment. > >=20 > > NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED=20 > > "GOD" BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION=20 > > OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). > >=20 > > Received at Simla, Sept. 1882. > >=20 > > Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, ... > >=20 > > least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates=20 > > a capital H. Our philosophy falls under the=20 > > definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the=20 > > science of effects by their causes and of causes=20 > > by their effects, and since it is also the=20 > > science of things deduced from first principle,=20 > > as Bacon defines it, before we admit any such=20 > > principle we must know it, and have no right to=20 > > admit even its possibility. Your whole=20 > > explanation is based upon one solitary admission=20 > > made simply for argument's sake in October last. > >=20 > > You were told that our knowledge was limited to=20 > > this our solar system: ergo as philosophers who=20 > > desired to remain worthy of the name we could not=20 > > either deny or affirm the existence of what you=20 > > termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being=20 > > of some sort beyond the limits of that solar=20 > > system. But if such an existence is not absolutely impossible, ... > >=20 > > yet unless the uniformity of nature's law breaks=20 > > at those limits we maintain that it is highly=20 > > improbable. Nevertheless we deny most=20 > > emphatically the position of agnosticism in this=20 > > direction, and as regards the solar system. Our=20 > > doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms=20 > > or denies, for it never teaches but that which it=20 > > knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God=20 > > both as philosophers and as Buddhists. > >=20 > > We know there are planetary and other spiritual=20 > > lives, and we know there is in our system no such=20 > > thing as God, either personal or impersonal.=20 > > Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable=20 > > law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya,=20 > > ignorance based upon the great delusion. > >=20 > > The word "God" was invented to designate the=20 > > unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 > > either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 > > them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 > > prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 > > cause and causes we are in a position to=20 > > maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... > >=20 > >=20 > > Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. > >=20 > > 1 Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. =96 ED. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon May 07 21:29:43 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2336 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 04:29:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m41.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 04:29:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.242) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 04:29:42 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n26.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 04:28:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 04:28:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 04:28:19 -0000 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 04:28:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.242 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: White Lotus Day: "Bear Witness!": Who Was the Real H.P.B.? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=d7LvyvLbe7-D-oCSOuz47WVGyhBFmYtxdUsXNHdR4MXYH5-OWAOS05Fx X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40563 "Bear Witness!":=20 Who Was the Real H.P.B.? See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/whitelotus2000.htm Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From adelasie@sbcglobal.net Mon May 07 21:33:09 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@sbcglobal.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66296 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 04:33:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.71) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 04:33:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp104.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.198.203) by mta13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 04:33:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 93233 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 04:32:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.101?) (adelasie@sbcglobal.net@76.209.222.223 with login) by smtp104.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 04:32:06 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: HHmWSd8VM1mCvvCefiemQZYfmh7Zswg9UR2.bwcer5aB5eeTRUTx6xwoHNxXx58pcTtEPXbang-- To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:34:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <463FA991.22324.1701A3CA@adelasie.sbcglobal.net> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Originating-IP: 68.142.198.203 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "adelasie" Subject: Re: Theos-World White Lotus Day X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=161282999 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40564 Thank you, Ramamdoss, for reminding us of White Lotus Day, and reminding us also of the great soul who gave us theosophy and with it the hope of a new age of love and brotherhood to come. Adelasie On 7 May 2007 at 23:08, M K Ramadoss wrote: > Tomorrow, May 8 is celebrated as the White Lotus Day, to commemorate the > passing of HPB. On this day, it is appropriate to remember the contribution > of HPB who was responsible for the modern presentation of Ancient Wisdom. > All of us who are fortunate enough to be exposed to Theosophy should > remember her with gratitude, since Theosophy has shown the way to many of > us and at least I am cognizant of how it has changed my attitude toward > life and our fellow beings. On this day, traditionally in branches there is > a reading of Bhagavat Gita and Light of Asia and poor are fed. It is very > significant that HPB stated her wish that poor be fed. She did not say we > all should be meditating or get involved in psychic endeavors. I thought > that it is appropriate that all of us be reminded of White Lotus Day. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon May 07 23:50:16 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73642 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 06:50:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 06:50:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.22) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 06:50:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n29.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 06:48:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.91] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 06:48:06 -0000 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 06:48:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.22 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: 3 Important Mahatma Documents on "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=giWvI5CJkI2I-8Pn8CQTS36kvFnQ1juubYo4H7xj7yVlVkx2MYSYb0s4 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40565 3 Important Mahatma=20 Documents on "God" The following 3 documents by Morya and Koot Hoomi are INTERRELATED and complement and supplement one another. I give below the letter numbers of these 3 documents as given in the letters of HPB to Sinnett and the first three editions of the=20 Mahatma Letters and I also give links to the actual online=20 transcriptions of the documents. [The 4th(chrono) edition assigns=20 different letter numbers to these documents.]=20 Document 1: Appendix II - Cosmological Notes from A. P. Sinnett's MS. Book. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-aps/bl-ap2.htm Document 2: Letter No. 22 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-22.htm Document 3: Letter No. 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm Apparently there is still alot of misunderstanding and confusion about these 3 documents and the teachings contained therein. AFAIK, a detailed and comprehensive commentary has never been written on these 3 documents. Mrs. Hanson and Mr. Linton have contributed some valuable material in their READERS GUIDE but=20 there is MUCH MORE that could have been given to clarify what is=20 written in these 3 documents. Furthermore, the material given in the above 3 documents could be elucidated even more by annotating them with extensive extracts found=20 in HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE. Also one can find alot of relevant and helpful material on the=20 various persons, terms and topics covered in these 3 documents in=20 various reference works on philosophy, religion and related=20 subjects. Later I may try to list some of these works and give=20 examples of what I am referring to. I give just one example below to illustrate what I am thinking about. Concerning Spinoza mentioned in Letter No. 10, the Wikipedia gives=20 these RELEVANT comments: --------------------------------------------------------- He contended that everything that exists in Nature/Universe is one=20 Reality (substance) and there is only one set of rules governing the=20 whole of the reality which surrounds us and of which we are part.=20 Spinoza argued that God and Nature were two names for the same=20 reality, namely the single substance (meaning "to stand beneath"=20 rather than "matter") that underlies the universe and of which all=20 lesser "entities" are actually modes or modifications, that all=20 things are determined by Nature to exist and cause effects, and that=20 the complex chain of cause and effect are only understood in part.... Spinoza contended that "Deus sive Natura" ("God or Nature") was a=20 being of infinitely many attributes, of which extension and thought=20 were two. His account of the nature of reality, then, seems to treat=20 the physical and mental worlds as one and the same. The body and the=20 mind are both comprised of the universal substance, and no difference=20 exists between them. This formulation is a historically significant=20 panpsychist solution to the mind-body problem known as neutral=20 monism. The consequences of Spinoza's system also envisage a God that=20 does not rule over the universe by providence, but a God which itself=20 is part of the deterministic system of which everything in nature is=20 a part. Thus, God is the natural world and has no personality.... The attraction of Spinoza's philosophy to late eighteenth-century=20 Europeans was that it provided an alternative to Materialism,=20 Atheism, and Deism. Three of Spinoza's ideas strongly appealed to=20 them: the unity of all that exists;=20 the regularity of all that happens; and=20 the identity of spirit and nature.=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinoza Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue May 08 00:41:34 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 58356 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 07:41:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m46.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 07:41:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.132) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 07:41:33 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n19.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 07:40:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 07:40:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.73] by t3.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 07:40:01 -0000 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 07:40:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.132 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Cosmological Notes from A. P. Sinnett's MS. Book X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=D6gJeKYj4HYvNn4Ynskvy_e-psPutOINFsqSJNU8K8akM-UNpLYXbQkf X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40566 Cosmological Notes=20 from A. P. Sinnett's MS. Book In my previous posting, I mentioned the above document which can be=20 found at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-aps/bl-ap2.htm About one year ago, I was working on a more helpful and readable=20 version of these Cosmological Notes. I even started adding related=20 historical material. I see that the draft is still incomplete (at=20 least the historical introduction I was attempting to add) but I=20 publish it since some students may find it of some use. It will be=20 found at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/CosmologicalNotes.htm Helpful definitions and commentary on many of the Tibetan and=20 Sanskrit terms used in these "Cosmological Notes" can be found in=20 David and Nancy Reigle's book BLAVATSKY'S SECRET BOOKS. Hope some of this helps. Daniel http://hpb.cc From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue May 08 00:57:48 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91961 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 07:57:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 07:57:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.106) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 07:57:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 99009 invoked by uid 60001); 8 May 2007 07:56:46 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: LWBNVBsVM1l2fj714wMVk48jpfw4S0Rnj_R3OTz_xuvPh5UW5XPXjXC9MuVf50Y39qEr3TcurzZY.NscM3lh7E6lvckS.W_CNHPc61.Rog5LVv_fwjEvOaadjtPJ.sKk8HCSh1OgvrqaTSwixZHSJ.3.Yb8QVHPWmQixIfZhyknJdQO9Z9_BuUJATskZGqCyWOzx6Q-- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 May 2007 00:56:46 PDT Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 00:56:46 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <409589.98976.qm@web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.106 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Which Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=xVpeoZ4QUzAwX41sg7F7REk_z-S9tbg5pbUzsBiiTA_D_uxLzQ X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40567 Dear Nigel, Hi! I guess my lack of respect of authority comes from my Irish heridita= ry and Australian convict status, i.e. do not trust those in authority. A= s history has shown there is always a hidden agenda. So with CWL the flag = went up immediately! =20=20=20 Don't be too harsh on yourself we are taught to respect authority, that i= s why I believe the Christians believe so much in their personal god. =20=20=20 You=92ve Got to be Carefully Taught You=92ve got to be taught to hate and fear You=92ve got to be taught from year to year It=92s got to be drummed in your dear little ear You=92ve got to be carefully taught You=92ve got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made And people whose skin is a different shade You=92ve got to be carefully taught You=92ve got to be taught before it=92s too late Before you are six or seven or eight To hate all the people your relatives hate You=92ve got to be carefully taught You=92ve got to be carefully taught =20=20=20 Perhaps the song should have included a paragraph on Who to trust! =20=20=20 My gut feeling Nigel is that the world as we know it, is changing. Whet= her Pluto or Saturn is causing it I don't know. But all secrets are being = exposed, it is like a cleansing. Not only on a global level but also on a = personal level.=20=20 =20=20=20 Burn his books and you will burn away his ideas. =20=20=20 Love Cass =20=20=20 =20=20=20 =20=20 nhcareyta wrote: Dear Cass Thank you once again for your comments. You write: "Perhaps I should have written that Leadbeaterism may have put some=20 Christians on the path of pseudo-theosophy, which is a tad preferable=20 to dogmatic christianity. Although I take your point that CWL=20 introduced dogma into theosophy, at least the precepts were more=20 eastern in thinking." Yes, good points...but only just a tad for me:) You write: "Luckily for me when I was first introduced to CWL's works I found=20 them to be too authoritarian and egotistical in tone, so I never=20 placed much value on what he was saying." If only I had been so perceptive! As a young male used to authority,=20 each of these aspects with its accompanying egocentricities, my=20 mindset resonated well with his writings at first. And herein lies=20 another of the more insidious aspects of his work. Some men may feel=20 comfortable with it as it asserts the "authority" of maleness. Some=20 women may feel comfortable if they're looking for a "knight in=20 shining armour."=20 And so the age-old stereotypical paradigm is once again re-inforced=20 despite it being a woman who originally brought us the teachings. I say "some" and "may" as certainly not all are attracted for these=20 reasons.=20 You write: "I guess I am writing from a sense of frustration, the world is=20 currently in the throws of some enormous changes resulting in fear=20 and confusion for many..."=20 Agreed and well understood. From my perspective, the doomsdayers and=20 apocalyptic merchants are speculative promoters of fear and are doing=20 great harm to the mindsets of many. Such energies can contribute to=20 the effect of "self-fulfilling prophecy" for those so consumed. This=20 fear-based living in the future can completely distort or even=20 destroy the only important time there is, the here and now.=20 You write: "...and I believe that when energy is directed to things of the past=20 it prevents us from focussing on the now..." Yes, true indeed. However, if Bishop Leadbeater's influence was only=20 in the past it might not be such a problem. In my experience though,=20 the vast majority of Adyar Society members who are remotely=20 interested in theosophy are predominantly followers of his version.=20 Even many current members I know are still devoted to his work. And=20 it is for this reason I feel the need to occasionally expose his=20 frauds and fallacies for the sake of those who may be unaware, to at=20 least provide them with an alternative perspective. Moreover, I am=20 only too cognisant of how difficult it has been for me and others to=20 unlearn some of his distortions. His energies have a long-lasting=20 effect particularly where they are still promoted to this day and=20 will be for long years into the future. You write:=20 "When I think about CWL, I can feel my blood pressure rise and I am=20 sure, attract many negative thoughts to myself." Yes, I can relate to this too. It gives me no pleasure at all to=20 speak about and challenge his work. In fact I often feel a sense of=20 uncleanness afterwards. I guess the positives for me include the opportunity to be unattached=20 to those negative emotions (not easy!), the extreme wariness of all=20 forms of authority and the aforementioned opportunity to warn others=20 of the many and varied traps the Bishop sets for the unwary mind. Thanks again Cass Best wishes Nigel=20 > nhcareyta wrote: > Dear All and Cass >=20 > Cass, I both understand and respect your position that you would=20 > prefer to "put the dilemma to bed" as being well considered as=20 usual,=20 > kind and generous, and don't wish this posting to be in any way=20 > construed as an attempt to draw you into further discussion.=20 >=20 > That said, please allow me to use some remarks from one of your=20 > previous postings to highlight some points which are often raised=20 by=20 > others as well and which seem important to me and perhaps to fellow=20 > students of T/theosophy. >=20 > 1) "Even though Leadbeaterism and Besantism et all is not pure=20 > theosophy, I > imagine it has helped souls by putting them in the right direction,=20 > especially > Christians." >=20 > 2) "it (challenging Bishop Leadbeater and his teachings) causes=20 > negative energy for theosophy at best, wasted energy at worst." >=20 > This idea, that the world is a better place as a result of the=20 > teachings of Bishop Leadbeater, Dr Besant et al, is very much a=20 moot=20 > point that friends and I from the Adyar Society discussed every=20 week=20 > for more than a year, some years ago.=20 > Subsequently, each of us helped establish the Theosophical Academy=20 > where the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers became the=20 > focus of our study. Some of the reasons for this included the loss=20 of=20 > trust in many of the pronouncements and activities of Bishop=20 > Leadbeater and Dr Besant, a recognition that Madame Blavatsky and=20 her=20 > teachers had something significantly special and different to say=20 and=20 > a growing disillusionment with the Adyar Society, from our=20 perception=20 > that it was not an organisation of entirely free speech after all.=20 > There were other contributing factors which are somewhat irrelevant=20 > to the current discussion. >=20 > From my perspective, on balance I believe the Adyar Society and=20 > Theosophy in general would have been better off without Bishop=20 > Leadbeater and his teachings despite his many works and with many=20 > claiming they were initially drawn to the subject through his=20 > writings, myself included. Moreover, I have met and shared with=20 many,=20 > many Adyar theosophical students who were and/or are fine,=20 upstanding=20 > people. I have also met quite a few who were not, as is to be=20 > expected in a large organisation. > It seems unproductive to fully reiterate Bishop Leadbeater's lies,=20 > deceptions and often fanciful, romantic ideas with little basis in=20 > fact other than his own illusory sense of authority, as these have=20 > been fairly well covered in this forum throughout the past couple=20 of=20 > years. However there are some other aspects which dovetail in with=20 > the aforementioned which deserve attention.=20 >=20 > A rationale is often put forward that Bishop Leadbeater's writings=20 > helped simplify the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers.=20 > But did they really, or did they and their accompanying occult=20 > energies actually draw students away from it. In my experience, the=20 > overwhelming majority of students who started with Bishop=20 > Leadbeater's theosophy i.e. his teachings, his mindset and his=20 > energies are still entranced and enamoured by it.=20 > His often romanticised ideas and powerfully deceptive energies=20 cause=20 > many to become adoring followers, usually blind to demonstrable=20 proof=20 > and in such states of denial and defensiveness as to disallow any=20 > possibility of a reasoned debate concerning the contradictory=20 nature=20 > of his teachings in comparison with those his followers claims he=20 > simplified.=20 > Whilst this reactive mindset is largely the province of each=20 > individual, nevertheless this powerfully influential occult teacher=20 > who dishonestly represented another's works has had, and still has=20 a=20 > significantly detrimental, ongoing effect on the mindsets of=20 > unwitting students as well as on the original Theosophical=20 teachings=20 > themselves. >=20 > For those unaware of the many contradictions between the teachings=20 of=20 > Madame Blavatsky and her teachers and those of Bishop Leadbeater=20 and=20 > Dr Besant please go to: > http://blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm >=20 > Whatever way we might interpret Madame Blavatsky and her teachers'=20 > wishes for their Society and their version of Theosophy, they=20 > certainly did not want mesmerised, closed-minded followers. They=20 > certainly did not want a "theosophical" church complete with an=20 > authoritarian hierarchy. Nor did they want a Bishop or priest=20 acting=20 > as intermediary between parishioners and their true selves or the=20 > outrageous discrimination afforded women through their disallowance=20 > to perform the sacraments because their vehicles were, according to=20 > Bishop Leadbeater and his subsequent representatives, unsuited to=20 the=20 > task. >=20 > If Madame Blavatsky had wanted a manifestly simplified version of=20 > Theosophy she would have written one. She and her teachers did not=20 > want Theosophy simplified. They wanted us to think and to think=20 > deeply, further and further into the awesome profundities of nature=20 > and the cosmos. They wanted to expand our minds to breaking point=20 and=20 > beyond, into the realms of the formless, where we might begin to=20 > learn the actual constructs of the cosmos and eventually become=20 > cosmocratores.=20 >=20 > A mind satisfied with simple explanations usually rests on its=20 > laurels, feeling secure it has found the truth. This mindset almost=20 > inevitably turns these explanations into a dogma and eventually may=20 > even become the basis for a church.=20 > This is what occurred as a result of Bishop Leadbeater's version of=20 > theosophy and his influential mindset. >=20 > For these and other reasons already stated in previous posts, my=20 > perspective for what little it's probably worth, is that Bishop=20 > Leadbeater and his teachings caused immeasurable harm to Madame=20 > Blavatsky and her teachers' Theosophy, as well as to the Adyar=20 > Theosophical Society itself. His legacy and influence in this=20 > organisation has always been very strong with high-ranking clergy=20 > also filling its positions of seniority. > Where there is so much contradiction, dishonesty and deception=20 > between teachings it begs the question as to how those in authority=20 > can reconcile this. >=20 > It is for these reasons that I do not think that exposing lies and=20 > hypocrisies is promoting negative energies, in fact quite the=20 > opposite. As long as there are inquiring students eager to learn=20 > about Theosophy I will continue as and where able to offer what I=20 > believe to be an honest and fair assessment of the differing=20 versions=20 > and motivations.=20 >=20 > Regards to all > Nigel >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20 --------------------------------- We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue May 08 01:01:19 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63498 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 08:01:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m41.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 08:01:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.109) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 08:01:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 21986 invoked by uid 60001); 8 May 2007 08:01:08 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: J09RcksVM1nOVZcCfFEhoTESmjR4zsu5tGYi3gAUb9FFeO8IWjJHgyOcfIEOhlZKoX1zdD1m2X0zlXMkDsoXGG.u5HmVmK8Ugf1Yu9b3Z95Pyfi0xNUdtCzA5wTiPZZ9EEq2bm6aIuEupC5nUfrceMkOWnNpcY0GCaKHEEUqww-- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 May 2007 01:01:08 PDT Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 01:01:08 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <443259.20454.qm@web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.109 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=nEagXr-9muvjglGPBesKprBk20oh_TVM7wuUnLCSnIEobOOsIw X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40568 Where does the text refer to symbolic representations. We are gods in the = becoming, one either believes it or rejects it. Watering it down with intel= lectual argument is, perhaps, ego driven. I do not have any proof that I a= m a "god in the becoming" but faith in this belief, as "a definite maybe" i= s what keeps me true to HPB and her teachers. =20=20=20 Cass plcoles1 wrote: Hi Cass, If we see gods / goddesses in terms of symbolic representations I=20 don't see any conflict. Tantric Buddhist practice uses these symbolic forms and so does the=20 Hindu Tantras. The problem is as I see it, is when we concretise the symbol as=20 Joseph Campbell speaks about. Perry=20 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > The word "God" was invented to designate the=20 > > unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 > > either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 > > them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 > > prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 > > cause and causes we are in a position to=20 > > maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... >=20 > Cass: Perry, a question, does this mean that there is no "god"=20 or "gods" behind/within us? >=20 > Cass >=20 > plcoles1 wrote: > Hi Sveinn, > My impression is that in terms of philosophy, from what I can see,=20 > this letter is consistent with the rest of the teachings given in=20 > both the Secret Doctrine and the Mahatma Letters. >=20 > However as theosophical students we don't have to agree with what=20 is=20 > said, we can interpret the concept of "God" however we choose to. >=20 > Personally I see the term "God" as a symbol and try not to get too=20 > hung up on it as a word the problem is that as a concept it can=20 make=20 > a separation in terms of creator and created and therefore can be=20 > used in a seperative sense. >=20 > However most mystics use the term in a very inclusive and Unifying=20 > sense, I personally have a great love of the mystical tradition and=20 > so see "God" more in that sense. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Perry >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Sveinn Freyr wrote: > > > > This controversial letter "No. 88"? Is by my=20 > > opinion not a letter written by an adept. It is a note scrap > > that should not have been issued and designated=20 > > to master K.H. This scrap note has done much harm. > >=20 > > Sveinn Freyr > >=20 > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >=20 > > "Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > > controversial letter ... it is not a letter but some notes ... > >=20 > > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial > > of the traditional concept of God. > >=20 > > The student is therefore asked to withhold judgment." > >=20 > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >=20 > > Letter No. 88=20 > > 1 (ML-10) Copied by APS Sept. 28, 1882 > >=20 > > Now we come to what is probably the most=20 > > controversial letter in the volume. Actually, it=20 > > is not a letter but some notes made by the=20 > > Mahatma K.H. on what Hume called a "Preliminary=20 > > Chapter on God," intended as a preface to a book=20 > > he was writing on Occult Philosophy. The copy in=20 > > the British Museum is in Sinnett's handwriting. > > These "Notes" have caused some people to reject=20 > > the whole occult philosophy because of the denial=20 > > of the traditional concept of God. The student is=20 > > therefore asked to withhold judgment. > >=20 > > NOTES BY K.H. ON A "PRELIMINARY CHAPTER" HEADED=20 > > "GOD" BY HUME, INTENDED TO PREFACE AN EXPOSITION=20 > > OF OCCULT PHILOSOPHY (ABRIDGED). > >=20 > > Received at Simla, Sept. 1882. > >=20 > > Neither our philosophy nor ourselves believe in a God, ... > >=20 > > least of all in one whose pronoun necessitates=20 > > a capital H. Our philosophy falls under the=20 > > definition of Hobbes. It is preeminently the=20 > > science of effects by their causes and of causes=20 > > by their effects, and since it is also the=20 > > science of things deduced from first principle,=20 > > as Bacon defines it, before we admit any such=20 > > principle we must know it, and have no right to=20 > > admit even its possibility. Your whole=20 > > explanation is based upon one solitary admission=20 > > made simply for argument's sake in October last. > >=20 > > You were told that our knowledge was limited to=20 > > this our solar system: ergo as philosophers who=20 > > desired to remain worthy of the name we could not=20 > > either deny or affirm the existence of what you=20 > > termed a supreme, omnipotent, intelligent being=20 > > of some sort beyond the limits of that solar=20 > > system. But if such an existence is not absolutely impossible, ... > >=20 > > yet unless the uniformity of nature's law breaks=20 > > at those limits we maintain that it is highly=20 > > improbable. Nevertheless we deny most=20 > > emphatically the position of agnosticism in this=20 > > direction, and as regards the solar system. Our=20 > > doctrine knows no compromises. It either affirms=20 > > or denies, for it never teaches but that which it=20 > > knows to be the truth. Therefore, we deny God=20 > > both as philosophers and as Buddhists. > >=20 > > We know there are planetary and other spiritual=20 > > lives, and we know there is in our system no such=20 > > thing as God, either personal or impersonal.=20 > > Parabrahm is not a God, but absolute immutable=20 > > law, and Iswar is the effect of Avidya and Maya,=20 > > ignorance based upon the great delusion. > >=20 > > The word "God" was invented to designate the=20 > > unknown cause of those effects which man has=20 > > either admired or dreaded without understanding=20 > > them, and since we claim and that we are able to=20 > > prove what we claim i.e. the knowledge of that=20 > > cause and causes we are in a position to=20 > > maintain there is no God or Gods behind them. ... > >=20 > >=20 > > Copied out Simla, Sept. 28, 1882. > >=20 > > 1 Transcribed from a copy in Mr. Sinnett's handwriting. =96 ED. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue May 08 10:18:12 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47639 invoked from network); 8 May 2007 17:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 May 2007 17:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33a.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.214) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2007 17:18:11 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n33.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 17:18:03 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.83] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 17:18:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.73] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2007 17:18:03 -0000 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:18:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.214 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.28.214 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Stanzas of Dzyan & Cosmological Notes from A. P. Sinnett's MS. Book X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=PVe3fPNPipOxqv3XVGhk0kVsZnjjQk5tIn4a47lwh0oylbc3e76r95ur X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40569 Stanzas of Dzyan in THE SECRET DOCTRINE and Cosmological Notes from A. P. Sinnett's MS. Book ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I give below STANZA I of the Stanzas of Dyzan as found on p. 27 of=20 Vol. 1 of THE SECRET DOCTRINE: ------------------------------------------------------------- 1. THE ETERNAL PARENT WRAPPED IN HER EVER INVISIBLE ROBES HAD=20 SLUMBERED ONCE AGAIN FOR SEVEN ETERNITIES.=20 2. TIME WAS NOT, FOR IT LAY ASLEEP IN THE INFINITE BOSOM OF DURATION.=20 3. UNIVERSAL MIND WAS NOT, FOR THERE WERE NO AH-HI TO CONTAIN IT.=20 4. THE SEVEN WAYS TO BLISS WERE NOT. THE GREAT CAUSES OF MISERY WERE=20 NOT, FOR THERE WAS NO ONE TO PRODUCE AND GET ENSNARED BY THEM.=20 5. DARKNESS ALONE FILLED THE BOUNDLESS ALL, FOR FATHER, MOTHER AND=20 SON WERE ONCE MORE ONE, AND THE SON HAD NOT AWAKENED YET FOR THE NEW=20 WHEEL, AND HIS PILGRIMAGE THEREON.=20 6. THE SEVEN SUBLIME LORDS AND THE SEVEN TRUTHS HAD CEASED TO BE, AND=20 THE UNIVERSE, THE SON OF NECESSITY, WAS IMMERSED IN PARANISHPANNA, TO=20 BE OUTBREATHED BY THAT WHICH IS AND YET IS NOT. NAUGHT WAS.=20 7. THE CAUSES OF EXISTENCE HAD BEEN DONE AWAY WITH; THE VISIBLE THAT=20 WAS, AND THE INVISIBLE THAT IS, RESTED IN ETERNAL NON-BEING -- THE=20 ONE BEING.=20 8. ALONE THE ONE FORM OF EXISTENCE STRETCHED BOUNDLESS, INFINITE,=20 CAUSELESS, IN DREAMLESS SLEEP; AND LIFE PULSATED UNCONSCIOUS IN=20 UNIVERSAL SPACE, THROUGHOUT THAT ALL-PRESENCE WHICH IS SENSED BY THE=20 OPENED EYE OF THE DANGMA.=20 9. BUT WHERE WAS THE DANGMA WHEN THE ALAYA OF THE UNIVERSE WAS IN=20 PARAMARTHA AND THE GREAT WHEEL WAS ANUPADAKA? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Now notice what HPB writes in the SD, vol. 1, p. 23: -------------------------------------------------------- It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven=20 Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would=20 remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists. Nor is=20 there any need to assure the reader that, no more than most of the=20 profane, does the writer, or rather the humble recorder, understand=20 those forbidden passages. To facilitate the reading, and to avoid the=20 too frequent reference to foot-notes, it was thought best to blend=20 together texts and glosses, using the Sanskrit and Tibetan proper=20 names whenever those cannot be avoided, in preference to giving the=20 originals. The more so as the said terms are all accepted synonyms,=20 the former only being used between a Master and his chelas (or=20 disciples).=20 Thus, were one to translate into English, using only the substantives=20 and technical terms as employed in one of the Tibetan and Senzar=20 versions, Verse I would read as follows: ---=20 "Tho-ag in Zhi-gyu slept seven Khorlo. Zodmanas zhiba. All Nyug=20 bosom. Konch-hog not; Thyan-Kam not; Lha-Chohan not; Tenbrel Chugnyi=20 not; Dharmakaya ceased; Tgenchang not become; Barnang and Ssa in=20 Ngovonyidj; alone Tho-og Yinsin in night of Sun-chan and Yong-grub=20 (Parinishpanna), &c., &c.,"=20 which would sound like pure Abracadabra.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Here HPB gives us some of the actual Tibetan and Senzar terms which=20 she then translated into English. See beginning of this posting. Some readers may have noticed that some of these Tibetan, etc. terms=20 are ALSO to be found in the Cosmological Notes from A. P. Sinnett's=20 MS. Book which can be read at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/CosmologicalNotes.htm A careful comparison of what I have cited above throws a great deal=20 of light on the subject matter under discussion. For example, we have: Tho-ag in Zhi-gyu slept seven Khorlo HPB translates this as: 1. THE ETERNAL PARENT WRAPPED IN HER EVER INVISIBLE ROBES HAD=20 SLUMBERED ONCE AGAIN FOR SEVEN ETERNITIES. And following this: Zodmanas zhiba. All Nyug bosom. HPB translates this as..... But enough for now. See David Reigle's BLAVATSKY SECRET BOOKS, chapter on "Notes on=20 Cosmological Notes", pp. 57-71 and also chapter on "Technical Terms=20 in Book of Dzyan Stanza I", pp. 72-81. Book can be purchased at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/wizardsrecomm.htm Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc =20 From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue May 08 18:53:52 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91402 invoked from network); 9 May 2007 01:53:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 May 2007 01:53:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52111.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.114) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 May 2007 01:53:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 42453 invoked by uid 60001); 9 May 2007 01:53:51 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: b6r6LQAVM1mZDrVtJ.G.hD7Nz.qCkjfICCSA8X3hUSmRBOaGj7b0JqI0hxLn5ymMFA9.J6RGXPMF.TUakLIYMKLdMZyGyfK7edB79Xae0hXE3LHuyUCEn_eQjYYMoMDivQb6q5rhqVQ4Ceh3BCe5eKbw4CZLSC3Y7H7GHRLlwQ-- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52111.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 May 2007 18:53:51 PDT Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:53:51 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <364010.41241.qm@web52111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.114 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Stanzas of Dzyan & Cosmological Notes from A. P. Sinnett's MS. Book X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=6nRQHDxnapN07VaDe4Rl73nRBxn9NSAbimq_Jvp9xk2WLsmkFw X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40570 Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't this Stanza relate to conditions pre-manifestation. Cass danielhcaldwell wrote: Stanzas of Dzyan in THE SECRET DOCTRINE and Cosmological Notes from A. P. Sinnett's MS. Book ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I give below STANZA I of the Stanzas of Dyzan as found on p. 27 of Vol. 1 of THE SECRET DOCTRINE: ---------------------------------------------------------- 1. THE ETERNAL PARENT WRAPPED IN HER EVER INVISIBLE ROBES HAD SLUMBERED ONCE AGAIN FOR SEVEN ETERNITIES. 2. TIME WAS NOT, FOR IT LAY ASLEEP IN THE INFINITE BOSOM OF DURATION. 3. UNIVERSAL MIND WAS NOT, FOR THERE WERE NO AH-HI TO CONTAIN IT. 4. THE SEVEN WAYS TO BLISS WERE NOT. THE GREAT CAUSES OF MISERY WERE NOT, FOR THERE WAS NO ONE TO PRODUCE AND GET ENSNARED BY THEM. 5. DARKNESS ALONE FILLED THE BOUNDLESS ALL, FOR FATHER, MOTHER AND SON WERE ONCE MORE ONE, AND THE SON HAD NOT AWAKENED YET FOR THE NEW WHEEL, AND HIS PILGRIMAGE THEREON. 6. THE SEVEN SUBLIME LORDS AND THE SEVEN TRUTHS HAD CEASED TO BE, AND THE UNIVERSE, THE SON OF NECESSITY, WAS IMMERSED IN PARANISHPANNA, TO BE OUTBREATHED BY THAT WHICH IS AND YET IS NOT. NAUGHT WAS. 7. THE CAUSES OF EXISTENCE HAD BEEN DONE AWAY WITH; THE VISIBLE THAT WAS, AND THE INVISIBLE THAT IS, RESTED IN ETERNAL NON-BEING -- THE ONE BEING. 8. ALONE THE ONE FORM OF EXISTENCE STRETCHED BOUNDLESS, INFINITE, CAUSELESS, IN DREAMLESS SLEEP; AND LIFE PULSATED UNCONSCIOUS IN UNIVERSAL SPACE, THROUGHOUT THAT ALL-PRESENCE WHICH IS SENSED BY THE OPENED EYE OF THE DANGMA. 9. BUT WHERE WAS THE DANGMA WHEN THE ALAYA OF THE UNIVERSE WAS IN PARAMARTHA AND THE GREAT WHEEL WAS ANUPADAKA? Cass: Nowhere and Everywhere A good friend was kind enough to provide her knowledge on Stanza IV Sloka 3: Gives the occult number, the 31415=14 or 2x7, the complete number of the Forces in Nature, a double seven because of the duality. Sloka4: voice,speech and breath in relation to the creative power of sound are important and stimulating to thought. Stanza V Introduces the One Force, Fohat. Stanzas 1Vand V are closely related and each deals with a different aspect of the manifestation of the Cosmos. Whereas Stanza IV deals mainly with the agencies of creation and the numerical and geometrical structure of the Cosmos, Stanza V is mainly concerned with the Force by which it is sustained. Stamzi VI Our World,its growth and development This Stanza up to the end of Sloka 4 deals with the creation of the Seven Elements which are the substance of the seven planes of our scheme,within which is the cyclic pattern of evolution of worlds and globes is played out. Stanza VII-The parents of man on earth (Anthropogenesis) When the One becomes two, the threefold appears. This statement refers to when the One Darkness is permeated by the Ray of Primordial Light that lights the whole manifested universe. Chaos becomes male/female and water, incubated through Light, produces the threefold being which "appears" as the First Born. All of the above are expanded in my notes which I am happy to share, but we are talking about pages and pages of typewritten notes. Cass ---------------------------------------------------------- Now notice what HPB writes in the SD, vol. 1, p. 23: -------------------------------------------------------- It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists. Nor is there any need to assure the reader that, no more than most of the profane, does the writer, or rather the humble recorder, understand those forbidden passages. To facilitate the reading, and to avoid the too frequent reference to foot-notes, it was thought best to blend together texts and glosses, using the Sanskrit and Tibetan proper names whenever those cannot be avoided, in preference to giving the originals. The more so as the said terms are all accepted synonyms, the former only being used between a Master and his chelas (or disciples). Thus, were one to translate into English, using only the substantives and technical terms as employed in one of the Tibetan and Senzar versions, Verse I would read as follows: --- "Tho-ag in Zhi-gyu slept seven Khorlo. Zodmanas zhiba. All Nyug bosom. Konch-hog not; Thyan-Kam not; Lha-Chohan not; Tenbrel Chugnyi not; Dharmakaya ceased; Tgenchang not become; Barnang and Ssa in Ngovonyidj; alone Tho-og Yinsin in night of Sun-chan and Yong-grub (Parinishpanna), &c., &c.," which would sound like pure Abracadabra. ---------------------------------------------------------- Here HPB gives us some of the actual Tibetan and Senzar terms which she then translated into English. See beginning of this posting. Some readers may have noticed that some of these Tibetan, etc. terms are ALSO to be found in the Cosmological Notes from A. P. Sinnett's MS. Book which can be read at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/CosmologicalNotes.htm A careful comparison of what I have cited above throws a great deal of light on the subject matter under discussion. For example, we have: Tho-ag in Zhi-gyu slept seven Khorlo HPB translates this as: 1. THE ETERNAL PARENT WRAPPED IN HER EVER INVISIBLE ROBES HAD SLUMBERED ONCE AGAIN FOR SEVEN ETERNITIES. And following this: Zodmanas zhiba. All Nyug bosom. HPB translates this as..... But enough for now. See David Reigle's BLAVATSKY SECRET BOOKS, chapter on "Notes on Cosmological Notes", pp. 57-71 and also chapter on "Technical Terms in Book of Dzyan Stanza I", pp. 72-81. Book can be purchased at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/wizardsrecomm.htm Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue May 08 19:56:28 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83490 invoked from network); 9 May 2007 02:56:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 May 2007 02:56:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52112.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.115) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 May 2007 02:56:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 75091 invoked by uid 60001); 9 May 2007 02:55:04 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: .YzW3ocVM1ndKubKdxLZDjUlZzOA.XYWNvPQFCGgMyHYa4B.bTTZ8gVo5iSJYqZ92g-- Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52112.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 May 2007 19:55:04 PDT Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:55:04 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <859261.74294.qm@web52112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.115 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: What nightmares may come X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=uFUo-fhD8Kr1ohait8KyZgKsEz9cA1q5FHF5nh3TTeiV5K5SGg X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40571 http://www.liveleak .com/view? i=80b_1177973316 Cass --------------------------------- We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue May 08 19:57:41 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96581 invoked from network); 9 May 2007 02:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 May 2007 02:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.111) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 May 2007 02:57:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 46731 invoked by uid 60001); 9 May 2007 02:57:38 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: gE8yh28VM1mTSs0CNbM9xJ9AHWYBmVg0sizx8Tj.Qd4c4Odxrxmn57YJvwNvyndVccb4uT4qSiaWLlfb10mHmsGyyBQKM7xXHE2WG5WQWoG89aFUGq4EcdinHVXC Received: from [210.49.184.221] by web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 May 2007 19:57:38 PDT Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 19:57:38 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <826953.46454.qm@web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.111 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: An address to the dead X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=OvGiaWPDjlvqVh2mKm9IyP7mszl4Cev2IvHeHYX_v8AG0lwHIA X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40572 Weapons of Mass Destruction Found (An address to the dead) =20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20 by Michael Tsarion April 17, 2007 Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the bla= me upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those co= nscience-soothing tactics, and will diligently study them, and refuse to ex= amine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself = that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys aft= er this process of grotesque self-deception - Mark Twain=20 The WAR ON TERRA is merely the latest move in the great game played out b= y the Atonist Establishment, the Royals, and the Vatican's Jesuit-Masonic s= orcerers who expertly employ the Dialectic ("Ordo Ab Chao") to further thei= r very personal aspirations dating back to an old world order that you are = supposed to know nothing about. So let's get clear on a few things and rema= in sane in the midst of growing worldwide insanity. Let's understand that t= he elusive demagogues, tyrants, and Atonist Pharaohs of old, with their con= spicuous lieutenants, are still plying their vile imperialist trade from be= hind the visible governments and religions of your world.=20 I rejected that hardened, sullen-tempered Pharaoh of England forever...an= d disdain the wretch - Thomas Paine (American Founding Father on British Ki= ng George III)=20 Let's understand that the "Israeli-Palestinia n" conflict is engineered f= rom London and New York by elites with ancient origins. Age after age, they= concoct bogus conflicts to create an ambience of fear and paranoia and to = ensure that few of you become aware of the real enemies of mankind.=20 911 may have shaken you up. But did it wake you up? That is the question= =20 Those so-called Islamic "extremists" are funded by the same hidden hands th= at fund the Zionists and the Fundamentalist Christian Evangelists. Israel ,= dear people - the real Israel - has little to do with either religious Jew= s or the Torah; just as Christ has little to do with modern Vatican-style C= hristianity of American Evangelism.=20 You have been "Mel Gibsoned" and "Pat Robertzoned" to death, and are ment= ally infected by many a deadly pathogen, the worst of which is ignorance. H= appily, the cure is on its way.=20 "Al Qaeda," your new bogey, is the brain-child of the same Vatican , New = York City , and London based intelligentsia that once funded Hitler and his= Nazis, that concocted the now shelved "Soviet Experiment," that funded Fra= nco, Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe, Batista, Pinochet, Noriega, and every other de= magogue or tyranny throughout the world. The heat is being turned up "over = there" both for ritual purposes and to distract you from noticing the final= demise of your once great country which has been scourged and raped econom= ically and politically by its direst enemies, the legions of the British Cr= own.=20 It's all scripted. Repeat!=20 Are you not sick of the performance, sick of the lies, and of voting in d= espots out to eviscerate your country?=20 On May 10, 1982, addressing a celebration at the Royal Institute for Inte= rnational Affairs at Chatham House in London, Kissinger boasted that throug= hout his career...he had always been closer to the British Foreign Office t= han to his American colleagues, and had taken all his major policy leads fr= om London...Chatham House is a successor to the old British East India Comp= any, and serves as the think-tank and foreign intelligence arm of the Briti= sh Crown - Dope Inc=20 Paul O=92Neill - who was a member of the National Security Council as wel= l as being in charge of fiscal policy - made a shocking revelation to Ron S= uskind that not only are public events scripted, but even cabinet (and othe= r) meetings within the White House with the President are scripted, where e= veryone but Bush has speaking parts. Bush=92s role is merely to nod or list= en expressionlessly, aside from his occasional cryptic (or cynical comments= ) - John Dean (Worse Than Watergate)=20 This crime, this Fabian "War of Attrition," has been going on in plain vi= ew from the outset. It is now moving toward completion and there is no goin= g back. Because of their unseen hand, which you think does not exist, ignor= ance is wall to wall. Logic, Truth, and Justice are corpses and the Childre= n of the Nephilim continue to erect their vile empires over their bones.=20 The British monarchy, and the City of London 's leading Crown bankers, en= thusiastically backed Hitler and the Nazis, bankrolled the Fuehrer=92s elec= tion, and did everything possible to build the Nazi war machine, for Britai= n 's planned geopolitical war between Germany and Russia - Scott Thompson (= The Nazi Roots of the House of Windsor)=20 The Roosevelt family was the largest stockholder in the company which was= a supporter of Hitler. General Electric subsidiaries in Germany assist the= process of financing the Nazi empire, together with I. G. Farben, who cont= ributed as much as 45 percent - Valdamar Valerian (The Master Chronology)=20 A Jew is not necessarily a Zionist, as the Zionists and Masons (with thei= r insider-smiles) well know. There is no " Holy Land " or "Chosen People." = That is all a concoction of London and the Vatican . Additionally, the fana= tical heads of all major Islamic countries and states (all established arti= ficially from post-war England), those so-called "Jihadists" with anti-Jewi= sh zeal are, likewise, British backed and educated agents totally complicit= in the faux conflict they have been groomed to perpetuate. Zionism is not = religious. It is a political and fanatical ideology hiding behind religious= Judaism. Evangelism is a political and fanatical ideology hiding behind th= e front of Christianity.=20 The Evangelist preaches Masonic (Atonist) doctrines, but you buy into it = because you want "Daddy" so badly and because you have sold your own sanity= for security. You are a safe in numbers. You are a "believer" on your way = to the "promised land." Or so you think.=20 Actually, you operate on the "slave-think" level and do your master's bid= ding unawares. You have grown accustomed to your prison and your servitude = to death and lies. The biggest threat in your world is Truth. As long as yo= u have a few cushions for your cell, so to speak, some salt in your gruel, = and as long as you are permitted an opinion or two within the political den= created by your masters, you are okay with a mediocre lifestyle and the re= gimented predictability of your conformist and artificial existence. You ha= ve convinced your screaming soul that it is safer and better to just confor= m and be a repressed, toxic, thoughtless, frustrated, and programmed orc ma= rching to the drum-beat of your imperious marshals.=20 Ezra Pound - America 's greatest poet. Incarcerated for 12 years in Belle= vue insane asylum for speaking the truth. He commissioned Eustace Mullins t= o investigate and expose the Federal Reserve Banking Cartel. Pound died soo= n after his release=20 As long as one slave can bellow "Allah!" louder than another screeching "= Anti-Semite! " then all is well and death can stalk the lands.=20 We must always separate Zionism from the Jewish people...the Zionists wor= k for the Pope and are Masonic...Shimon Perez is a Mason...he was trained b= y Jesuits as a young man when he grew up in Poland...he deeded the old city= of Jerusalem to the Vatican in September 1993 - Erich Jon Phelps (Vatican = Assassins Presentation)=20 Eustace Mullins - colleague and biographer of the great Ezra Pound, and o= ne of the first American authors to speak out against the Illuminati and to= name the names=20 Yes, sleep well people, under the shadow of the great double-headed eagle w= hich tears the world and your brothers and sisters to pieces. Any authority= or intelligence who stands against the "Dialectic" is removed violently or= compromised (Mohammad Mossedegh, Malcolm X, George Lincoln Rockwell, Ezra = Pound, Charles Lindbergh Sr., Father Alberto Rivera, Senator McCarthy, Pres= ident Alan Garcia of Peru, etc,) and replaced by "Quislings," those puppets= of the elite who deliberately bring ruin to their own people and to their = supposed adversaries. While these straw dogs meet in their secret lodges, t= o laugh and jig, misery reigns abroad as it has for millennia. And the worl= d does not appear to be "getting the picture." Apparently, you don't want t= o realize that enemies are created, just as friends and allies are.=20 You don't want to face the fact that what you witness every evening on th= e news is a game, an act - an act of sorcery.=20 Two rabid pit-bulls tear each other to pieces in a pen. Two rabid countri= es, factions, sects, or cliques do the same thing on the world's stage. Do = you think there is a difference? There's none that I can think of. Who buil= t the pen? Who trained the cocks and pit bulls? Who's taking the bets? That= 's your homework folks. You'd better get your heads down and find out just = what all the kings horses and all the kings men have been up to while you s= lept.=20 For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the polit= ical spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encount= er with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influenc= e they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. So= me even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best inte= rests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as =91internati= onalists=92 and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more = integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will= =85If that=92s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it - David Roc= kefeller (Memoirs, Page 405)=20 We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine= , and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings a= nd respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would = have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had bee= n subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But the wor= ld is now more sophisticated and prepared to march toward world government = - David Rockefeller (Address to the Trilateral Commission, June 1991)=20 ...not until David Rockefeller bought himself a U.S. administration in 19= 76, as the ancient European Fondi installed themselves in Wall Street, did = narcotics traffic start to become serious business for the world's biggest = banks - Dope Inc=20 Saddam had the maniacal extremists under control. They could not squeak u= nder his regime and he was no threat to America or England . But, like so m= any puppets, he was expendable.=20 G. Edward Griffin - one of the earliest American authors and researchers = to expose the British-funded "Hidden Hand" of Conspiracy=20 He was merely a temporary pawn on the Grand Chessboard of the royal Geo-Str= ategists and their imperialist orgs, such as the IMF, World Bank, Bank of I= nternational Settlements, and Council on Foreign Relations; which independe= ntly and collectively serve the same function as the old British East India= , Virginia, and Hudson Bay companies. Each of them grow fatter on the econo= mic ruin of the countries they financially "support." You imagine that Uncl= e Sam rules from the White House, right? You had better think again. Uncle = Sam has a gun to his head and a blade to his throat. He takes orders from R= ome, New York, and London; from the cronies of the crown at the Council on = Foreign Relations, the Royal Institute of International Affairs, Georgetown= University, Buckingham Palace, and St. James Square.=20 Hell, you don't know that you lost the war of independence? You don=92t k= now that you are famous for losing the wars you win? Yep, 'fraid so, you're= gonna have to fight that one again, and this time win. And this time, fell= ow warriors, your weapon of choice needs to be knowledge.=20 The sinister element that sets the British oligarchy apart from the popul= ar image of the mafia family is its unshakable belief that it alone is fit = to rule the world...The inheritors of the British East India Company - the = same British monarchy and some of the same banking houses - have launched t= he new Opium War just as they did the first: to loot nations, destroy them,= and exalt the power of the Empire...to become the "The Third and Final Rom= e" - Dope Inc=20 Saddam, like Prime-Minister Chamberlain, Arch-Duke Ferdinand of Austria ,= Gustav III of Sweden , Czar Nicholas II, and so many others, has been remo= ved and sacrificed. But pawns too are those among you who will not see the = Dialectic at work, those of you who, due to the disease of ignorance, conti= nue to take sides in this "Skull" or "Bones" fiasco. It is time to realize = that it is your complicity and ignorance that permits these sorcerers of he= ll to destroy legitimate sovereign nations, obliterate civilizations, and s= ilence any who would stand against them to expose their corruption.=20 The so-called Left-Right political spectrum is our creation. In fact, it = accurately reflects our careful, artificial polarization of the population = on phony issues that prevents the issue of our power from arising in their = minds - (The Occult Technocracy of Power)=20 The President=92s job, is not to wield power himself, but to lead attenti= on away from it - Douglas Adams (The Hitch-Hiker' s Guide to the Galaxy)=20 Well, you know about the sorcerers, but what of the Magicians? What about= the true teachers? Unfortunately, they are always disagreeable threats, dr= awing your attention from your tranquilized delirium. Their counsel can't g= et through because you can't listen. You're receptivity is blocked by your = own ideas and allegiances. You have identified with the objects of your hat= e, as you have been taught, and have received a rickety form of psychologic= al security as a result. The true teachers speak of the beauty of change, o= f spontaneity, mutability, curiosity, free-thought, and new perspectives ("= Captain, My Captain!"). But this threatens your paper-thin sense of securit= y, so when they talk your brain goes on the blink, and the drivel of pre-di= gested clich=E9s, platitudes, and half-baked rebuttal begins, all parroted = from the smart-ass, double-speaking talking heads on TV.=20 Dr. John Coleman - Ex-MI6 Agent and author of several books on the Fabian= Society, Tavistock Institute, CFR, and the Round Table Groups=20 An attack on your silent and unseen contracts with the sorcerers strikes = at the root of the self-induced hallucination which has you believe that al= l adversaries and pathogens are external in origin, and that the problems w= hich befall you and the world are political and not psychological in nature= . But that is okay. You can live out this lie all the days of your lives if= you so desire since it gets you off the hook. Soon, though, the matter wil= l come into court and be settled aright. The brief is being prepared now as= you read. But, its comforting to know that when and if your insecurity get= s too pronounced there is always the mosque, the synagogue, the chapel, and= the church.=20 Yep, there is always GOD - the ultimate fix-all. After all, it is in God'= s name that you act. "Blow them all away!" wasn't it, Mr. Mason Jerry Faldw= ell?=20 But as the wise men know, inner sadism so easily finds its way out into t= he 3-D world. Those infected with emotional and psychic epidemics are at th= e helm of the "ship of state" steering it toward a crevasse. If we go over = the edge, don't blame the ocean.=20 Are they alien, or are they human? Are the navigators men or demons in hu= man guise? Are they born from the womb of the world's ignorance, sadism, an= d sickness? Yes, they are, and you are living in their forensic filth. You = don't care or notice because they have provided the necessary bread and cir= cuses for your senses, appetites, and edification. They are overjoyed with = their experiments and with their world of emotional and psychic prostitutes= . They don't offer you truth but they do offer you power. And that is what = you have been taught to rank over the love you have never known or received= and are now incapable of receiving.=20 Your opinions are baked daily for you by the media and served hot and col= d on TV. And you will believe what they tell ya. It=92s not what you think = that matters, but what Larry King, Oprah, Limbaugh, and O'Reilly (and other= Jesuit stooges) tell ya that does.=20 The author of America 's Secret Establishment - Anthony Sutton exposes th= e Council on Foreign Relations, Skull & Bones Society, and other anti-Ameri= can orgs=20 Their Orwellian "Talismanic" mantras guide your life - Danger!!! Terror!!= ! We must give up liberty for freedom. Yes, We must! We must! Well, okay, b= ut just remember that the walls that keep the would-be enemies out also kee= p you in. So much for your utopian "global village." So, run rabbit run, ju= st keep on riding the snake! The tragedy of 9-11 may have shaken you up, bu= t did it wake you up? That is the question.=20 The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion - Edmun= d Burke=20 Democracy is inimical to imperial mobilization - Zbigniew Brzezinski (The= Grand Chessboard)=20 Your masters have your tranquilizers ready in abundance, =91cause they re= ally do care for your safety and security. Its the same old song, from the = Congress of Vienna in 1815 until now with Bush and his preposterous Patriot= Acts which are going to keep you safe.=20 Baron Avro Manhattan - Exposer of the Black Pope and Jesuit crime=20 Are you in pain? Do you ache with the stress of living? Well, don't despair= 'cause their syringes and pills will make it better. You won't have to inq= uire why you have this pain? Is it because the only love you have is for po= wer? Is it because your quest for power and dominance is always frustrated = by reality that you are stressed? You tell yourself that you desire love an= d peace, but this is the lie upon which your whole anti-life is founded. Yo= u gave up wanting love a long time ago. Power-lust has taken its place. But= you have never noticed this about yourself. And neither has the leader you= place in power. You and he are self-blinded, stabbing at yourselves in the= darkness of your ignorance. Soon, like Dorian Gray, your blade might pierc= e your heart. Then what? Then it all ends, all the lies, fakery, and debauc= h.=20 In the great social meta-script, which is played out again and again, som= e bogey-man is put before you, and its "Lights, Camera, Action!" Year after= year, decade after decade, and century after century. The proof of the ins= ide-job is before the world and in plain view. The facts are there and noth= ing is concealed. What does the graffiti say then: Simply this - What your = government does abroad today, it does at home tomorrow.=20 Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never sto= p thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither d= o we - George W. Bush (Freudian-Slip during BBC interview)=20 ...if the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes h= ave done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched= - George Bush Senior (interview with Sarah McClendon, December 1992)=20 So when you see the leaders of Hezbollah, and of Israel (Zion-Aton), unde= rstand that you are seeing actors. They are agents of her royal lowness - Q= ueen Elizabeth Windsor, of Saxe Coburg-Gotha, of Hanover , of Guelph , of V= enice , and of Atonist Egypt.=20 The Bushes and Schwartzkopfs, the Colin Powells and Rupert Murdochs, the = Thatchers, Geldofs, Spielbergs, Greenspans, and Guillianis, baby, they bow = down their backs and squat down on their knees before her silver sword and = accept her knighthoods, after all. Better start finding out why that would = be.=20 Better remind yourself of the dictionary definitions for "agent provocate= ur" and "fifth columnist." Better root out the Judases sitting at your tabl= e, America !=20 In the years 1919 and 1920, two events of critical strategic importance f= or Britain 's opium war against the United States occurred. First the Royal= Institute for Foreign Affairs was founded. The purpose of this institution= had been set forth over forty years before in the last will and testament = of empire-builder Cecil Rhodes. Rhodes had called for the formation of a "s= ecret society" that would oversee the reestablishment of a British empire t= hat would incorporate most of the developing world and recapture the United= States - Dope Inc=20 ...the Anglophile portion of America 's upper crust joined the fun. The c= ase of Joseph Kennedy, who owed his British contracts for liquor wholesalin= g to the Duke of Devonshire, and later married his daughter into the family= , is notorious. In some respects, more revealing is the strange case of Rob= ert Maynard Hutchins, the president of the University of Chicago from 1929 = to 1950. Hutchins had American citizenship, but was so close to the British= aristocracy that he became a Knight Commander of Her Majesty's Venerable O= rder of St. John of Jerusalem, swearing an oath of chivalric fealty to the = head of the order, the British monarch - Dope Inc=20 Kennedy's unswerving loyalty to the British monarchy was rewarded; his da= ughter, Kathleen Kennedy...married William Cavendish, the Marquis of Hartin= gton. Hartington was the son and heir to the tenth Duke of Devonshire.. .wh= o have run British politics since the days of Elizabeth I...While serving a= s ambassador in Britain, Joseph Kennedy was made an initiate of His Majesty= 's Most Venerable Order of St. John of Jerusalem... Joseph Kennedy Jr. and = John F. Kennedy were trained at the London School of Economics, and institu= tion founded by the Fabian Society dedicated to training and recruiting for= eign cadre as future British agents within government, business, media, and= educational posts in their own countries. The Kennedy brothers were traine= d by Fabi