From dharao4@yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 01 02:49:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41390 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 10:49:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2004 10:49:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.58) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2004 10:49:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 23575 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Dec 2004 10:48:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20041201104848.23573.qmail@web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [217.207.134.34] by web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:48:48 GMT Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:48:48 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.58 From: robert searle Subject: Faqir Chand, and the Higher Self. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear ALL, I am replying essentially here to Mr. Caldwell, and Mr. Coles. The former makes the very interesting point that it is the Higher Self which is the REAL GURU. Personally, I concur. However, an external master is also vital as he, or she offers something visible, and accessible to our limited five senses to love, and respect. You may have heard of Faqir Chand easily traceable on the internet. He was a respected shabd yoga mystic who was regarded as God in human form by his devotees. However, whenever they wrote or talked about their inner, and outer miracles with Him Chand confessed that he knew nothing about them...even though He was meant to be omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent!!! To some RS purists this suggested that he was not a real master, or Sant Satguru. Yet, Chand gave an interesting, and unusual spin on this situation. He said that it was the devotees belief, and love in Him which prompted a whole variety of inner, and outer miracles connected with Himself. He also notably made the point that the same thing would happen even if the master were not perfect!!! I personally believe the above is the most likely truth. I feel there is a part of us all that exists beyond time, and space. It is our Higher Self or rather our future Perfected Self which can using a variety of guises help us in our spiritual evolution. Outer gurus, or teachers act as the visible means to reach the invisible. It may well be that no Sant Satguru has to be perfect absolutely in the moral sense as our Higher Self, or Perfected Self in this bizarre Mono-Drama. When Sant Mat says we need to seek a Perfect Master, it may well really mean we need to seek our Perfect, or Higher Self via a visible guru. Since, the Self is really our God it would through a Sat Satguru being able to connect us to the Sound Current. It is important to understand that shabd yoga should not be confused with nada yoga. Though both are concerned with inner sound the latter only deals with the lower ones of the astral planes. I see Mr. Coles and someone called Babara have been hearing the audible manifestation of spirit. Scott-Rogo once wrote a two volume book on this subject simply called NAD. ___________________________________________________________ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 01 03:34:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7035 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 11:34:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2004 11:34:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2004 11:34:08 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.83] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CZSdw-0002eN-5P; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:27:34 -0500 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 03:27:11 -0800 Message-ID: <000101c4d798$bf2d14a0$5380b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7976bdb58979f661640ba20fa8cb2f1228350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.83 Subject: RE: [theosophia] Re: A Prophecy about the T.S. in India X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 30 2004 AN OLD PROPHECY=20 This old prophecy about the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY has been published before, but ought to be given consideration, now that we have just passed the 129th year of its founding on November 17th. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D AN OLD PROPHECY ABOUT THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY=20 A PRECURSOR TO THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 A Yogis Prophecy =20=20 What appears to have been a forerunner of The Theosophical Society=20 in India was the Samarasa Veda Sanmarga Sangham, founded in 1867 by=20 Ramalingam Swami a famous South Indian Yogi, to spread the=20 principle of Universal Brotherhood and propagate the true doctrine of the= =20 Vedas.=20 The lofty ethics of this teachings were not popular, mostly=20 because he preached against caste, saying that the distinction=20 between races and castes would eventually cease and Universal=20 Brotherhood would be accepted.=20 Towards the end of his life Ramalingam Yogi made the following=20 astonishing prophecy, and made it repeatedly: =20 "You are not ready to become members of this Society of Universal=20 Brotherhood. The real members of that Brotherhood are living far=20 away, towards the north of India. You do not listen to me. Yet the=20 time is not far off when persons from Russia, America and other=20 foreign lands will come to India and preach to you the same=20 doctrine of Universal Brotherhood. Then only will you know and=20 appreciate the grand truths that I am vainly trying to make you to=20 accept.=20 You will soon find that the Brothers who live in the far North will work a= =20 great many wonders in India, and thus confer incalculable benefits=20 upon this our country." =20 These facts are recorded in " Hints on Esoteric Theosophy" by=20 Pandit Velayudam, a pupil of Ramalingam and Tamil Professor of the=20 Presidency College, Madras, who adds this note: "This prophecy has in my opinion just been literally fulfilled. The=20 facts that the Mahatmas in the North exist is no new idea to us=20 Hindus; and the strange fact that the advent of Madame Blavatsky=20 and Colonel Olcott from Russia and America was foretold several years=20 before they came to India is an incontrovertible proof that my guru=20 was in contact with those Mahatmas under whose direction the=20 Theosophical Society was subsequently founded."=20 =20 H.P. Blavatsky comments on these remarks of Pandit Velayudam: This is one of those cases of previous foretelling of a coming=20 event, which is least of all open to suspicious of bad faith. The=20 honorable character of the witness, the wide publicity of his=20 Guru's announcements, and the impossibility that he could have got from=20 public rumor, or the journals of the day, any intimation that the=20 Theosophical Society would operate in India - all these conspire to=20 support the inference that Ramalingam Yogi was verily in the=20 counsels of Those who ordered us to found the Society.=20 In March 1873 we were directed to proceed from Russia to Paris.=20 In June 1873 we were told to proceed to the United States where we=20 arrived July 6th .=20 This was the very time when Ramalingam was most forcibly=20 refiguring the events that should happen.=20 In October 1874 we received an intimation to do to Chittenden, Vermont,=20 where, at the famous homestead of the Eddy family, Colonel Olcott was=20 engaged in making his investigations - now so celebrated in the annals of= =20 Spiritualism - of the so called "materialization of Spirits."=20=20=20 =20 November 1975 the Theosophical Society was founded, and it was not=20 until 1878 that the correspondence began with friends in India=20 which resulted in the transfer of the Society's Headquarters to Bombay=20 in February 1879. =20 Note. Ramalingam Yogi died or rather "disappeared," in 1874, at=20 Valadur near Chidambaram his birthplace.=20 At Valadur he built a dharmasala, or mission house, where the poor were=20 given and are still given, food and shelter free. He is credited with occult=20 powers which enable him to perform what are called miracles,=20 quenching fire, turning water into oil, changing carnivorous people=20 into vegetarians.=20 His Tiru Arutpa (Path of Light) is among the masterpieces of the Tamil literature. ------------------------------------------- =20 Extracted from the article: "The Progressive Founding of the T.S."=20=20 written by J. L. Davidge=20 published in THEOSOPHIST, July 1939. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Many thanks Erica and Steve I am going to give this a wider circulation if you don't mind Thanks for finding it. Dallas=20=20=20 Nov 30 2004 From compiler@wisdomworld.org Wed Dec 01 12:05:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79811 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 20:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2004 20:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams006.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.152) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2004 20:05:57 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([68.55.92.204]) by ams006.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id <366451-18539>; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:05:03 -0500 Message-ID: <41AE238B.C471FC4D@wisdomworld.org> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:03:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 216.219.253.152 From: Compiler Subject: 24 articles about JESUS in the "LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I hope that many readers, especially newcomers to theosophy, will find this collection of articles about JESUS, all presented in the bright and profound "Light of Theosophy", to be very informative and useful and that they will greatly add to the various views that people everywhere have about him -- giving much food-for-thought for everyone to ponder over, concerning what he was all about. All of the articles are from THEOSOPHY magazine, and are on my WisdomWorld.org web site. These 1st two articles are taken from the 166-article "Setting the Stage" Introductory book. They are the 2nd and 3rd articles in the 29-part "GREAT THEOSOPHISTS" series that runs from article number 130 to 158 in the book. This is the link to the index page where you can see the titles of all 166 articles in the book. They are numbers (131) and (132): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html If you don't want to scroll down the Index page to get to them, these are their direct links: (131) Great Theosophists: Jesus, the Christ (Part 1 of 2): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/jesusone.html (132) Great Theosophists: Jesus, the Christ (Part 2 of 2): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/jesustwo.html ================================================ These next 6 articles about Jesus are from THE CHRISTIAN SCHEME, 36-part series. They are numbers 11, 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25 in it -- followed by a 7th article here which is an additional article that follows the series, and is number (37). If for some reason the links to them are broken because of their length, this shorter link is to the 5th of 18 sections on the "Additional" articles Index page that is entitled "CHRISTIANITY IN THE 'LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY'". The link to the series is the 1st one that's listed in it: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#5 If you don't want to scroll down the Index page to get to them, and they are not broken here, these are their direct links: (11) GNOSIS AND CHRISTIANITY: Jesus-Logos-Christos: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-Logos-Christos.html (21) JESUS: A True Nazarene: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-ATrueNazarene.html (22) JESUS: A Great Reformer: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-AGreatReformer.html (23) JESUS: Various Views: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-VariousViews.html (24) JESUS: Was He Unique?: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/Jesus-WasHeUnique.html (25) JESUS: Buddha, Jesus, Apollonius: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/JesusBuddhaApollonius.html This next one is the "additional" article. It's about the first of the so-called Christian "heresies". It's all about the physical death of Jesus and his physical resurrection: (37) THE DOCETAE: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/TheDocetae.html ====================================== These next articles about Jesus are a 12-part series that is entitled: JESUS: INITIATE AND TEACHER The articles all have the same name and are only numbered under the title. And as with the above 6 articles from "The Christian Scheme" series, it's also found in the 5th of 18 sections on the "Additional" articles Index page that is entitled "CHRISTIANITY IN THE 'LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY'". The link to the series is the 5th one that's listed in it: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#5 ================================================== These next 3 articles about Jesus are from the grouping of articles entitled: A LISTING OF 329 COLLATED ARTICLES If for some reason the links are broken because of their length, this shorter link is to the section on the "Additional" articles Index page that is entitled "A Listing of 329 Collated Articles" (it's the 12th of 18 sections on the page). Then click on the only link that's found in it to the alphabetized Index page, and scroll down to the articles which are each listed the way you see the titles just below: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#12 If you don't want to scroll down the Index page to get to them, and they are not broken here, these are their direct links: JESUS AND HIS TEACHING: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ListOfCollatedArticles/JesusAndHisTeaching.html JESUS: PHILOSOPHER AND REFORMER: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ListOfCollatedArticles/JesusPhilosAndReformer.html WHO CRUCIFIES THE CHRIST?: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ListOfCollatedArticles/WhoCrucifiesTheChrist.html ================================ Dear newcomers to Theosophy: I sincerely do hope that my web site offers a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links to everything on it are found below. Please know that I'm only the compiler of all the articles found on my web site; I'm not a scholar; and also that I personally do not like to take part in conversations, even though I do hope that what I present from time to time will help a little in the discussions being carried on by others. So please do not be insulted when I do not respond if someone addresses me, or addresses anything that is found in any of the articles on my web site; I leave that for others to deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, neutral, friendly or unfriendly. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": This next link is to the most updated version of my economic proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering world that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org ------- From dharao4@yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 01 13:46:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10598 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 21:46:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2004 21:46:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.58) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2004 21:46:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 92098 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Dec 2004 21:46:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20041201214607.92091.qmail@web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [217.207.134.106] by web86906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:46:07 GMT Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 21:46:07 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.58 From: robert searle Subject: Theosophical Economics, and DeSantis........... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear ALL Apart from DeSantis collection of Christian literature put on-line at Theos-Talk I was fascinated to see his ideas on Economics. Apart from Multi-Dimensional Science in R&D I am also the inventor of Transfinancial Economics in R&D. DeSantis might be interested in the latter, and can find out more at the XAT community website but would have to use the cached button to get a copy of my writings. Robert Searle ___________________________________________________________ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From leonmaurer@a... Wed Dec 01 20:00:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@a... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57851 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2004 04:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2004 04:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d20.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.136) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2004 04:00:05 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@a... by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.df.7d39739 (14374) for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:58:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:58:21 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.136 From: leonmaurer@a... Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Economics, and DeSantis........... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Can't read your articles -- since the only things that are cached are the dead links on xat home page. As for "Multi-Dimensional Science, check out... http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics. Be interested in reading your take on the subject. Leon Maurer In a message dated 12/01/04 6:00:03 PM, dharao4@y... writes: >Dear ALL > > > > Apart from DeSantis collection of Christian > >literature put on-line at Theos-Talk I was fascinated > >to see his ideas on Economics. Apart from > >Multi-Dimensional Science in R&D I am also the > >inventor of Transfinancial Economics in R&D. DeSantis > >might be interested in the latter, and can find out > >more at the XAT community website but would have to > >use the cached button to get a copy of my writings. > > > > Robert Searle From dharao4@y... Thu Dec 02 03:02:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@y... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69600 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2004 11:02:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2004 11:02:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.53) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2004 11:02:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 58332 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Dec 2004 11:02:47 -0000 Message-ID: <20041202110247.58330.qmail@w...> Received: from [217.207.134.34] by web86901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:02:47 GMT Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:02:47 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.53 From: robert searle Subject: Leon Mauren, and the XAT Website. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear Mr. Mauren, and Company There should be no problem accessing my material on the XAT website using the Cached button even though the links are dead. Again use google and key Multi-Dimensional Science, and the Progress of Humanity and you should get a whole series of writings readily accessible. Likewise, use google key in Non-Taxation Revolution which should lead to cached entries on the contents of this paper, and to a basic introduction on the subject of Transfinancial Economics in R&D. Multi-Dimensional Science is also in R&D. Using google key in the words Greater Clarification on Inflation Control, and this should lead you to a contents page (of recent posts), and to a whole series of writings. Please note that the first part of the Transifinancial Economics paper can be found after section or "chapter" 9 of it if I recall rightly, and is titled Legal Access to Financial Power. I am may be setting up an independant site not hosted by XAT community as I have been having some problems with them. Stay tuned. I must thank Leon Maurens link to his website, and I have yet to fully understand it before passing any comments. ___________________________________________________________ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k From danielhcaldwell@y... Thu Dec 02 09:53:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@y... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66841 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2004 17:53:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2004 17:53:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2004 17:53:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2004 17:52:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2004 17:52:35 -0000 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:52:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1114 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" book by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Recently the following book was published: The Judge Case: A Conspiracy Which Ruined the Theosophical Cause by Ernest E. Pelletier Ordering information can be found at: http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_judge_case.pdf Katinka Hesselink, editor of Lucifer7, has now written and published an informative review of this book in the latest December 2004 issue of Lucifer7. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lucifer7/message/17 I have reprinted the review in an easier format to print at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm Katinka also compiled a more complete table of contents for the book under review. I have also created a pdf version of this more complete table that will be easier to read and print out at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/wqjcasetableofcontents.pdf I am hoping that Ernest Pelletier will respond to Katinka's review on this Theos-Talk forum which is open to the public and is also indexed by Google. Later I plan to add a few comments of my own on "The Judge Case" book and also on Katinka's review. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc From mhart@i... Thu Dec 02 12:33:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@i... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72916 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2004 20:33:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2004 20:33:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2004 20:33:57 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.117] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CZxe5-0005vS-Cb for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 20:33:45 +0000 Message-ID: <41AF7C9B.3060902@i...> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:35:39 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@i... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South America and elsewhere X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South America and elsewhere According to Inca/Andean legend, the Nazca lines were made by "namesakes of Virachoca" (page 43, FINGER-PRINTS OF THE GODS by Graham Hancock). Apparently Virachoca (translated as "Foam of the Sea") was said to have appeared after much destruction by a deluge. He was described as a white, bearded man in a robe. Page 46: <> In ancient Egypt a similar teacher was named Osiris, apparently offering similar instructions. And according to the Chaldean scribe, Berosus, another such teacher was Oannes. Page 81: <> In short, I'm wondering if there might be a connection between the Nazca lines and modern day crop circles, and if both might be regarded as the works of Masters who might want to alert and remind people that a greater reality exists, a reality that transcends the conventional/orthodox materialistic trends. Seems to me that the persistent, ongoing appearance of numerous, complex crop circles around the world is flying in the face of orthodox/conventional attitudes. Speculatively, Mauri From perrycoles@yahoo.com Thu Dec 02 18:24:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73340 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 02:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 02:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 02:24:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2004 02:23:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.171] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2004 02:23:58 -0000 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 02:23:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2697 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.158.9 Subject: Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" book by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Thanks Daniel and Katinka This is a good article.... It's interesting how this concept of a "successor" is an issue of great debate in the various Theosophical Societies. A similar problem is in the various Radhasoami groups who all argue over "successor =96ship". While in the Radhasoami's I can understand why there is an issue over this due to their belief in need for a "perfect Master" to guide the initiates. In Theosophy however there is no such concept as each student must walk his or her own path. Is this need for "successors" based in the need for a rescuer or perhaps a hangover from the old hierarchical mindset and "divine Kings and Queens" being crowned with power from on high or perhaps HPB's highly "magnetised" Divine Ring of power. Maybe both Judge and Besant where still of this ilk. De Purucker's writings also express this authoritarian / hierarchical type of mindset of course it goes without saying CWL was a complete shocker when it came to pronouncements and his belief in superiority of the ruling classes. It's interesting that the society was set up on a democratic system rather than an autocracy or some kind of theosophical monarchy with "successors". It's a shame that the society fell into the trap of guru following and this nonsense idea of successor-ship and divine oracles, rather than implementing the principles of democracy on which the society was established. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: >=20 > Recently the following book was published: >=20 > The Judge Case: A Conspiracy Which > Ruined the Theosophical Cause > by Ernest E. Pelletier >=20 > Ordering information can be found at: >=20 > http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_judge_case.pdf >=20 > Katinka Hesselink, editor of Lucifer7, has > now written and published an informative review of > this book in the latest December 2004 > issue of Lucifer7. See: >=20 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lucifer7/message/17 >=20 > I have reprinted the review in an easier format > to print at: >=20 > http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm >=20 > Katinka also compiled a more complete table of contents > for the book under review. I have also created a pdf version > of this more complete table that will be easier to read > and print out at: >=20 > http://blavatskyarchives.com/wqjcasetableofcontents.pdf >=20 > I am hoping that Ernest Pelletier will respond to Katinka's > review on this Theos-Talk forum which is open to the public > and is also indexed by Google. >=20 > Later I plan to add a few comments of my own on "The Judge > Case" book and also on Katinka's review. >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER > http://hpb.cc From bta101@hotmail.com Thu Dec 02 19:54:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bta101@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41785 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 03:54:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 03:54:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 03:54:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2004 03:54:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2004 03:54:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:53:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1934 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.50 From: "bta1012003" X-Originating-IP: 63.202.173.223 Subject: Re: THE RADHASOAMI FAITH, AND THEOSOPHY. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=118449510 X-Yahoo-Profile: bta1012003 > > Hi Barbara, > Its interesting that you've had this experience as well. > My experience was that it started off sounding as if it was above my > head or outside of myself as the sound became more intense I seemed to > merge into the sound and become apart of it rather than it being > separate from me. > > Its interesting that this experience and some others happened around a > time of great transition in my life. > The explanation of the "sound" being that of the `ethers' is quite > possible but I don't know for sure. > It certainly was a profound experience for me at any rate. > > What are the impressions you have with your experiences ? > > Perry Hi Perry: Reading your statements above makes me think that your experience is more of a spiritual nature than mine, because mine lacks the quality you described and I never merged into the sound. When I first started to meditate with a Buddhist group, over three decades ago, there were times I heard a piercing, high pitch ring in my ears. I learned, subsequently, (and it seems reasonable to me,) that I was hearing my own nerves. But, there was one time, deep in meditation, that I heard the sweet melodic sound of a flute. Later on, for about a year or more, I heard a loud, thunderous, noise. It happened every time before I left my body. It was not a pleasant sensation, due to its deafening character. I am glad that had ceased many years ago. In recent years I often hear the sound of silence, it is like the sound one hears upon walking into a hollow cave. I am guessing that it has to do with moving through the etheric web that is on the top of the head center to the outside of the body. These are my observations that I collected from my practice. I never intentionally seek or even think much about these sounds. They are just byproducts of different states of consciousness. Best to you, barbara > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Dec 02 21:14:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42001 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 05:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 05:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 05:14:48 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.15] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ca5m9-00007G-AU; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:14:45 -0500 To: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:10:21 -0800 Message-ID: <003b01c4d8f6$fb0b4230$e293b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79fccf26812d6dee9d8085c10f6e7d8c31350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.216.15 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: Chapter 2, page 15 - Akasha and the Astral Light X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 1 2004 The following may also be of help ABSOLUTE =96 An Analogy UNIVERSAL ALL =3D=3D A PRESENCE =94Paranishpanna, remember, is the summum bonum, the Absolute, hence the sa= me as Paranirvana. Besides being the final state it is that condition of subjectivity which has no relation to anything but the one absolute truth (Param=E2rthasatya) on its plane. It is that state which leads one to appreciate correctly the full meaning of Non-Being, which, as explained, is absolute Being. Sooner or later, all that now seemingly exists, will be in reality and actually in the state of Paranishpanna. But there is a great difference between conscious and unconscious =93being.=94 The condition of Paranishpanna, without Param=E2rtha, the Self-analysing consciousness (Svasamvedana), is no bliss, but simply extinction (for Seven Eternities). Thus, an iron ball placed under the scorching rays of the sun will get heated through, but will not feel or appreciate the warmth, while a man will. It is only =93with a mind clear and undarkened by personality, and a= n assimilation of the merit of manifold existences devoted to being in its collectivity (the whole living and sentient Universe),=94 that one gets rid= of personal existence, merging into, becoming one with, the Absolute,* and continuing in full possession of Param=E2rtha. "=20 S D I 53-4 -------------------------------------------------------------- The Shirt-tail Saints Figures of speech or analogies seem to be absolutely essential to express the realities of Profundity. The direct meaning of language does not express the actuality of the Higher Consciousness. We might say that the Actuality envelopes the expression but is not directly contained in it. Thus the reader should strive not so much to understand the formal meaning contained in these writings, but to make a certain turn In his own consciousness toward a Matrix that surrounds expression. He should concentrate upon faint stirring in his consciousness which he cannot really express, even to himself. They constitute a certain =91plus= =92 quality added onto the formal meaning.=20=20 The formal meaning serves as a sort of focal point that entrains the subtle =91plus value. It is very hard to reach the latter without the use of a fo= cal point until a rather high level of spiritual development is attained. Henc= e it remains important to employ various means of expression. But if the expression is taken too much in the rigorous or defined sense, the real and deeper Meaning is lost. Therefore, the words of an Illumined Man should never be taken in the literal sense when He is giving a cross-translation from the Beyond. = =20 Now, the =91plus=92 quality at first is almost indistinguishable from nothi= ng or emptiness. It is like a breath that has just escaped, a momentary gleam caught from the corner of the eye that disappears when the full focus of sight is turned upon it. It must be reached for very gently, as one must act in seeking the confidence of a defenseless and fearful creature of the wilds. One should reach out almost as though not reaching at all. A time will come when This that is so very subtle will be transformed into = a Presence more palpable and stronger than the roughest granite. It will manifest a Power so great that It will dissolve not only the immediate fiel= d but even the whole universe.=20=20 But the Great Power is rarely in the beginning a clearly dominant force, an= d It must be assimilated very carefully or It will disappear in the first stages. In the beginning it may seem that one is walking a tight-rope over unmeasured spaces, and the necessary balance is extremely hard to hold. In the end the rope becomes all Space, the Supreme Support of all universes bu= t Itself in need of no support.=20=20 Visible man, in that case, has been transformed and has become the all-containing Matrix. No longer, then, does he struggle to keep his balance on a rope, but he finds Himself everywhere and therefore Invulnerable. (Pathways Through to Space, p. 147) "The immediate effect of a state of consciousness having a one-way dependence on, or relation to the subject, and no object, is that of a vast void. It is an "I" suspended in an utter voidness. At once a process of "enantio-dromia" [Jung, Psychological Types, 541-42.] transforms the voidness into the value of substantial fullness. This is a "thickness" tha= t I am quite sure would much more than meet James's requirement.=20=20 I know of no empiric content that in the faintest degree suggests this quality of fullness, which is the actual palpable Presence of Divinity itself. It is nothing so crude as a vast person in space, but a Presence that permeates all space, interwoven throughout the objects of ordinary consciousness, yet more completely present where those objects are not. = =20 The effect is a radical reversal of all former values, and a resolution of many of just those problems to which empiricism can give no satisfactory answer." (Transformations in Consciousness, p. 112) [from AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST, Supp., Jan 2004 ] ----------------------------------------------------------- Here below are some of the best contributions received. Why not use the idea of UNIVERSAL SPIRIT for that which in religions has been designated =93God?=94 It is UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD as a living fact. = It has always been there and will continue to be there, and we will always be in and with IT. Its beginnings (and ours) are of the same duration, and that cannot be measured in terms of whet we call time, distance or motion. Call it a sublime IDEA. Some of these concepts can appeal to us and we can then use them as avenues of thought to universalize IT, and those will cause us to see it first in ourselves as our dearest friend, and closest tutor, and then, if we reach out to the radiance in everything, we will sense it in a daisy, the Sun, ou= r friends and family, in a grain of sand or a cloud, in the roaring fire or tinkling brook - wherever we may project or stretch our minds -- there some for, of LIFE IS. Then, if we agree that we can see God everywhere, who are we to change or destroy that presence or manifestation and to be tyrants or oppressors ? I= f we think God is all-knowledge , and is omnipresent, then we cannot hide -- ever. Nor can we =91escape=92 from the consequences of our choices. There is an old hymn or verse that says:=20=20 =93Never was I not, never was I not.=94 Never will I cease to be. Never the Spirit was IT not, Beginnings and ends are but dreams.=94 ------------------------------------------------- Questions: How can we exit from Materialism? A. -- How often in framing our concepts do we rely on our education? Almost all the time. At what point do we begin to question some of the basics that were given to us as facts and truths, and which we later find out are only hypotheses? What is an atom, what makes it move? What is electricity, magnetism, light, what causes these, and why are they always described in terms of their effects and not in terms of their actual causes ? True that for our present Western frame of mind (as well as often in the East as well) the term =93God=94 is employed to designate a Power, a stabil= izing unity in design and purpose, which we may hope will turn to our help if, by some method of worship or propitiation we secure its specific attention to us. How can our whole world with all its differences ? =85 How can a whole Galaxy exist, and seemingly run in good order -- that is still mainly unexplored by us ? =85 How can we delve into our own psyche and mind - stil= l largely not in our control ? =85 What have we ? =85 Blind alleys, or horizo= ns of hope and encouragement to widen our range of understanding ? Then comes th= e death of the physical body. Is all lost or is there a continuance ? What is the purpose of so complex a situation? What evidence can we assemble to prove or disprove the Theosophical propositions about the nature of the Universe and our role as humans in it = ? Perhaps it is well that there is no finality and that our curiosity is left with an open field in which to grow, to ever grow ? --------------------------------------------- HOW TO STUDY THEOSOPHY =96=20 Commander Bowen quotes HPB=92s 4 main points. Since most of the quotes that we will discuss come from SD, I hope the following extracts from Robert Bowen's notes of personal teachings given by H.P.B. to private pupils during the years 1888 to 1891 on how to study SD may be of some help. "At last we have managed to get H.P.B. to put us right on the matter of the study of the S.D. Let me get it down while it is all fresh in mind.=20 Reading the S.D. page by page as one reads any other book (she says) will only end us in confusion.=20 The first thing to do, even if it takes years, is to get some grasp of the "Three Fundamental Principles" given in the Proem. Follow that up by study of the Recapitulation -- the numbered items in the Summing Up to Vol. I. (Part 1.). Then take the Preliminary Notes (Vol. II.) and the Conclusion (Vol. II.)......=20 She talked a good deal about the "Fundamental Principles."=20 She says: If one imagines that one is going to get a satisfactory picture o= f the constitution of the Universe from the S.D. one will get only confusion from its study. It is not meant to give any such final verdict on existence= , but to LEAD TOWARDS THE TRUTH. She repeated this latter expression many times.=20 It is worse than useless going to those whom we imagine to be advanced students (she said) and asking them to give us an "interpretation" of the S.D. They cannot do it.=20 If they try, all they give are cut and dried exoteric renderings which do not remotely resemble the Truth. To accept such interpretation means anchoring ourselves to fixed ideas, whereas Truth lies beyond any ideas we can formulate or express. Exoteric interpretations are all very well, and she does not condemn them s= o long as they are taken as pointers for beginners, and are not accepted by them as anything more.=20 Many persons who are in, or who will in the future be in the T.S. are of course potentially incapable of any advance beyond the range of a common exoteric conception. But there are, and will be others, and for them she sets out the following and true way of approach to the S.D.=20 Come to the S.D. (she says) without any hope of getting the final Truth of existence from it, or with any idea other than seeing how far it may lead TOWARDS the Truth. See in study a means of exercising and developing the mind never touched by other studies. Observe the following rules:=20 1. No matter what one may study in the S.D. let the mind hold fast, as the basis of its ideation to the following ideas=20 (a) The FUNDAMENTAL UNITY OF ALL EXISTENCE. This unity is a thing altogethe= r different from the common notion of unity -- as when we say that a nation o= r an army is united; or that this planet is united to that by lines of magnetic force or the like. The teaching is not that. It is that existence is ONE THING, not any collection of things linked together. Fundamentally there is ONE BEING. This Being has two aspects, positive and negative.=20 The positive is Spirit, or CONSCIOUSNESS. The negative is SUBSTANCE, the subject of consciousness.=20 This Being is the Absolute in its primary manifestation. Being absolute there is nothing outside it. It is All-Being. It is indivisible, else it would not be absolute. If a portion could be separated, that remaining coul= d not be absolute, because there would at once arise the question of COMPARISON between it and the separated part.=20 Comparison is incompatible with any idea of absoluteness. Therefore it is clear that this fundamental One Existence, or Absolute Being must be the Reality in every form there is. I said that though this was clear to me I did not think that many in the Lodges would grasp it. "Theosophy," she said, "is for those who can think, or for those who can drive themselves to think, not mental sluggards."=20 H.P.B. has grown very mild of late. "Dumskulls!" used to be her name for th= e average student.=20=20 The Atom, the Man, the God (she says) are each separately, as well as all collectively, Absolute Being in their last analysis, that is their REAL INDIVIDUALITY. It is this idea which must be held always in the background of the mind to form the basis for every conception that arises from study o= f the S.D. The moment one lets it go (and it is most easy to do so when engaged in any of the many intricate aspects of the Esoteric Philosophy) th= e idea of SEPARATION supervenes, and the study loses its value.=20 (b) The second idea to hold fast to is that THERE IS NO DEAD MATTER. Every last atom is alive. It cannot be otherwise since every atom is itself fundamentally Absolute Being. Therefore there is no such thing as "spaces" of Ether, or Akasha, or call it what you like, in which angels and elementals disport themselves like trout in water. That's the common idea. The true idea shows every atom of substance no matter of what plane to be in itself a LIFE.=20 (c) The third basic idea to be held is that Man is the MICROCOSM. As he is so, then all the Hierarchies of the Heavens exist within him. But in truth there is neither Macrocosm nor Microcosm but ONE EXISTENCE. Great and small are such only as viewed by a limited consciousness.=20 (d) Fourth and last basic idea to be held is that expressed in the Great Hermetic Axiom. It really sums up and synthesises all the others.=20 =93As is the Inner, so is the Outer; as is the Great so is the Small; as it= is above, so it is below; there is but One Life and Law; and he that worketh i= t is ONE. Nothing is Inner, nothing is Outer; nothing is Great, nothing is Small; nothing is High, nothing is Low, in the Divine Economy.=94 =20 No matter what one takes as study in the S.D. one must correlate it with those basic ideas." ---------------------------------------- Why does SPIRIT undergo the evolutionary process.=20=20 Basically it would seem so that: "IT should know Itself." Logic: SPIRIT by itself is UNCONSCIOUS - UNIVERSAL - without contrast. Evolutionary law (KARMA) provides periodically the contrast of MATTER in an evolutionary Manvantara such as we are now involved in. [ Karma: as the endless "pulsing" of unconscious Life, which is perceived by "the opened ey= e of the Dangma" (the perception of the WISE)--SD I 27 Verse 8.] SPIRIT emanates aspects of itself - "Rays, Sparks" - which appear simultaneously with "matter" of a refined and "primordial type". Also simultaneously arises the POWER TO PERCEIVE, or UNIVERSAL MIND-MAHAT. [ Primordial pure matter is also named "Mulaprakriti" and "Mahabuddhi." ] The "Rays" invested with "matter" or MAHA-BUDDHI (Wisdom derived from experience) pass as individual MONADS [Atma-Buddhi-Manas] through all the planes and spheres of manifestation and eventually find themselves as individual Men-Minds on this, the grossest, most material of the planes. The SD describes this process starting SD Vol. I, p. 152. The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY covers this in brief in Chapters 2, 3, 4, and 14, 15, if a synopsis is desired. If one is asking for a FIRST CAUSE, [SD I 14-5 214 342 426] you will be disappointed because there is none of a "material" kind. In terms of metaphysics, HPB hints in the SD that it is the CAUSELESS CAUSE, [SD I 9-10 14-5 55 89 273 280; II 589 ] and it is indescribable in our material= , physical terms and thoughts. What then remains for us to do to un-puzzle our minds? Only the fact that we are here. The fact that we are questioning is highly significant.=20=20 In THE SECRET DOCTRINE we are given one of the most comprehensive "keys" to the great seven-fold puzzle. This 7-fold mystery stretches between the polar opposites of Spirit and Matter, and employs the Mind which is mid-way between and independent of them, to note and record all their interactions in terms of time, space and motion. In effect we are told: "Man know thyself."=20=20 Since we are also 7-fold, each one of our principles when ultimately refine= d and brought under control opens the corresponding "lock" of great nature. = =20 Man is the "Microcosm" of the "Macrocosm" and contains in himself, in miniature, every power and force that the Universe has. He has to understand these, where they come from and how they are used, but, the powe= r to employ the secret laws and posers of nature are not entrusted to him by the WISE, who hold the final "secrets," until he has become completely HARMLESS to himself and to Nature around him.=20=20 The practice of "brotherhood" is the opening aspect of the discipline that leads to individual "success" and to ultimate Wisdom (or the practice of benevolence as a force that is employed only for the good of others). By the fact that in any one evolutionary period a mass of minds independently and cooperatively achieve the highest illumination into the nature of SPIRIT and the UNIVERSE, to that extent SPIRIT GETS TO KNOW ITSELF. It becomes progressively SELF-CONSCIOUS. Thus the human stage is a= n essential component of the evolutionary process and those=20 Men-minds that become successful are entrusted with the guidance of various aspects of future evolutionary schemes and the assisting of still more "minds" to become universally enlightened. Spirit may be said to get to "know itself" by the success of Minds who are wisely benevolent. As the process is continuous and eternal, evolution and progress towards spirituality (with the memory of every Egoic, individual experience in all departments of Nature stored in Akasa-- the BUDDHI-wisdom -- aspect of NATURE) the SPIRITUAL PERSON, that we are fundamentally, becomes ONE WITH THE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT.=20=20 But this merging does not annihilate or disintegrate the Individual, for that continues as a conscious unit on a self-assumed mission of assistance, compassion and mercy described in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE in the last page= s of the book (pp. 76-79 and the all-important footnotes there). We as humans are half-way through this vas= t process and work. [ HPB in her article ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA says: "I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine Parabrahm, man's spirit which not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or "skandhas" that have survived afte= r each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas.=20=20 The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow "Buddhi" and the Seventh Principle into Devachan ("Swarga") after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the "Monad." [HPB Articles III, p. 265.] -------------------------------------------------- If the "ALL" is so grand and all knowing (omnipotent and omnipresent, etc...), then why does it need to form itself into a dense, fleshly creature like ourselves to evolve? It seems to me that to do so would be "un-evolving" itself (if such a word exists). Now I know that someone her= e is going to say, "Well, by becoming human, the "All" can experience many things on this plane, thus, adding to Its bank of knowledge." BUT, (I say),"Why??? If, It is already all-knowing???" What a grand question. In fact, the greatest philosophers of all history have asked over and over the question as to why God joined soul and body together - which is a variant of your question, isn't it? HPB has written that the mystery of the solar logos is the greatest mystery and the most precious in all of occultism. Bailey, though I am a declared dissident with respect to much of what she wrote - has said that the purpos= e of the solar logos is a redemptive one, that is, that our own God, the highest God we can conceive purpose for, was born - as in the Bible story about Christ - to save mankind with his great love and benedictions. Apparently our solar system and the planets therein have experienced great moral and spiritual failures in the past. It was not only in Atlantis that men turned to wickedness, sorcery and greed, black magic and so on, but in previously solar systems, resulting in great dead and decaying substance in the cosmos with human prisoners within them, comatose or in pain. Then along comes the redeeming heart of the Sun, who as Christ did, made the stupendous sacrifice to give us life and opportunity to work out way back home to paradise again. So if you look at the billions of billions of billions of suns and the equivalent numbers of humanities, both evolved and perfected and unevolved in the vast kosmic space we see each night in the skies, it is only ONE portion, our own solar system that required its God to incarnate through th= e human kingdom. Elsewhere the arrangement is not so much requiring of redemption as ours. Mankind is the redeemer, the great savior who must awaken to his true ancient agenda - and who seemingly has temporarily lost his way. ----------------------------------------------------------- Universal Foundation: THE ABSOLUTE Manifestation re begins under the unfinished Karma of the previous manifestation. "The Secret Doctrine establishes three fundamental propositions: -- (a) An Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable Principle on which al= l speculation is impossible, since it transcends the power of human conceptio= n and could only be dwarfed by any human expression or similitude. It is beyond the range and reach of thought - in the words of Mandukya, 'unthinkable and unspeakable.'" (from The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky, vol I page 14.) That "principle" is usually referred to as the "Absolute" in Theosophical discussion. Note there are other quotations in the SD that shed additional light on the Absolute. Perhaps I will include some of them later in the week - but I do not want to distract you from this quote. It is "famous" for students of the SD. The context of that quote is also quite important but not given here. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D SYMBOLS Circle, Circle and Dot. The CIRCLE can be taken two ways, as I understand it: 1. as representative of the UNMANIFESTED, attributeless and indescribable ALL. 2. The Circle can also represent the Universe as an "idea" that emanates from the ABSOLUTENESS and thus is indicative of the first differentiation. Circle is a limitation in the LIMITLESS (which as I understand it in the SD, is the ABSOLUTE) It is devoid of all attributes (SD I 214 420 II 34 384fn}. But, it is ALL POTENTIAL. It cannot=20 be =93projected=94 unless an earlier Universe had existed. This tends=20 to show that Karma (law) is a necessary and included part of the ALL.=20=20 Circle, actually, is a triple glyph: 1. SPACE UNLIMITED outside of it. An unlimited area with no boundaries or qualities. 2. Circle line itself. Apparently drawn by ETERNAL KARMA (SD I 27 - Verse 8) or that which is ALWAYS present as a philosophical necessity. In Non-manifestation it represents the "past" of all being previously IN MANIFESTATION, and due to eventually return. 3. Space limited inside the circumference that is drawn (Circle represents a SPHERE) . This represents the first flutter of a new Manifestation to be reborn out of the old impulses and forces left as Karmic germs. In the SD it might help to draw the information on the following pages together: SD I 1 4-5 11 65 99 113-4 134fn 239 333 359 II 553 573 589 621 You will see in the first pages of SD vol. I that HPB gives No SYMBOL for the ABSOLUTE -- she uses many words indicating that it is not to be limited. At the bottom of p. 4 are the first series of symbols.=20=20 On p. 11 is the extract from the OCCULT CATECHISM. ---------------------------- "What is it that ever is?" "Space, the eternal Anupadaka."* "What is it tha= t ever was?" "The Germ in the Root." "What is it that is ever coming and going?" "The Great Breath." "Then, there are three Eternals?" "No, the thre= e are one. That which ever is, is one, that which ever was is one, that which is ever being and becoming is also one: and this is Space."=20 "Explain, oh Lanoo (disciple)." =97 "The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is nowhere and everywhere; the One is the boundless plane of the Circle, manifesting a diameter only during the manvantaric periods; the One is the indivisible point found nowhere, perceived everywhere during those periods; it is the Vertical and the Horizontal, the Father and the Mother, the summi= t and base of the Father, the two extremities of the Mother, reaching in reality nowhere, for the One is the Ring as also the rings that are within that Ring. Light in darkness and darkness in light: the 'Breath which is eternal.' It proceeds from without inwardly, when it is everywhere, and fro= m within outwardly, when it is nowhere =97 (i.e., maya, one of the centres ).= It expands and contracts (exhalation and inhalation). When it expands the mother diffuses and scatters; when it contracts, the mother draws back and ingathers. This produces the periods of Evolution and Dissolution, Manwantara and Pralaya. The Germ is invisible and fiery; the Root (the plan= e of the circle) is cool; but during Evolution and Manwantara her garment is cold and radiant. Hot Breath is the Father who devours the progeny of the many-faced Element (heterogeneous); and leaves the single-faced ones (homogeneous). Cool Breath is the Mother, who conceives, forms, brings forth, and receives them back into her bosom, to reform them at the Dawn (o= f the Day of Brahma, or Manvantara). . . . "=20 [S D I, p. II ] --------------------------- Our minds in the here and now, surrounded by matter, find it most difficult to think of that which is NOT material or limited in terms of time, space and motion.=20=20 Pp. 14-19 give the "3 fundamentals." Those are found repeated throughout=20 later pages in one way or another. SD vol. 1 up to p. 300 gives a survey o= f manifestation starting with the most spiritual levels and gradually devolving into "matter." MATTER at that beginning point is "primordial matter." And if we were to perceive it, we might think of it as "spirit" in contrast with the "gross matter" we use every day here and now. Those first 300 pages are full of the most valuable explanations (see for instance Mr. Judge's HIDDEN HINTS IN THE SECRET DOCTRINE, which is a useful guide and commentary), we have to grasp and keep the information gained from those 300 pages in mind when reading the rest of the book. In SD I 51 she states positively that the "finite" cannot conceive of the INFINITE, and on p. 56 she says the reverse the INFINITY cannot know the "finite." And yet we dare as mind-being to think about this ABSOLUTENESS as a logical necessity from which emanates all the limitations of a functioning Universe. Is this not because we are in our innermost core, (as are all other beings) One with that ABSOLUTENESS ? This is the one fact that makes of each of us MONADS and Eternal Pilgrims. The DOT within the CIRCLE would indicate the Germ, the Seed the "first differentiation". It also stands for the imperishable MONAD encased in physical matter. If you look at a graphic representation of the Pythagorean TRIANGLE embodying the ten dots in 4 lines, then the ABSOLUTENESS would be an invisible ( Circle ? ) above the topmost dot. Or in another way, as IT is non-manifest, it would be an invisible CIRCLE that we create in our mind's eye, that includes all the ten dots which signify manifestation in all its many details. --------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Dec 02 23:37:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64384 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 07:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 07:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 07:37:34 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id j.1c2.21403d11 (3964) for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 02:37:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1c2.21403d11.2ee171b2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 02:37:22 EST To: study@blavatsky.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.208 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: [bn-study] Chapter 2, page 15 - Akasha and the Astral Light X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 As an exercise in testing the correlation's of a post modern approach to scientific reasoning with the metaphysics of theosophy as presented in the Secret Doctrine and discussed here -- as well as opening the door to further comments and questions that might add to our understanding of these ideas and concepts -- I've inserted my comments based on the theory of Astro Biological Coenergetics (ABC) within the commentary below. In a message dated 11/30/04 8:22:04 PM, estela3@blavatsky.net writes: >Chapter 2, page 15 > >7. Akasha and the Astral Light > > Here there is introduced a teaching that goes far beyond anything known >to today's sciences. Although not easy to grasp at first, it will be found >to throw much light on areas of experiences at present little understood >even by psychology, for example, the mystical and psychic. >It has been stated (in paragraph 4 above), that there is no such thing >as empty space in the universe. Esoteric Science teaches that the entire >cosmos is pervaded by Akasha, primordial substance, or rather the noumenon >- the non-sensuous reality - beyond substance. In the Theosophical >Glossary, Akasha (from a Sanskrit word meaning 'brilliant" or "luminous") >is described as "the subtle, supersensuous spiritual essence which pervades >all space." This primordial substance differentiates into all the forms of >matter, those of the invisible as of the visible regions of the universe. >Hence the definition of Akasha as "the Universal Soul" ...from which all >that exists is born by separation or differentiation. It is the cause of >existence; it fills all the infinite Space." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [LM] This "spiritual essence" or "primordial substance" is the "abstract motion" that surrounds the primal zero-point "emptiness" -- which is reflected everywhere -- and is the center of all infinite Space, whether manifest or non manifest, subtle or gross... (Although, each field of consciousness or composite "being" in the universe has it own individual zero-point center, along with its own "abstract motion" or "spinergy," constituting its source of "life" energy.) This abstract motion or the "angular momentum" of pure "Spin" (of the zero-point, rapidly turning or cycling around itself at infinite velocities on an infinite number of axes), is the primal Force ("Spinergy") -- that is the root of all manifest energies on all planes or fields of consciousness. Since, this infinite spin can carry information encoded as holographic interference patterns in its velocities as well as its radial pulsation's (or ZP spins on perpedicular axes) --it is the root of the Akasha that carries the entire memory of all prior Manvantara experiences, as well as the construction plans or "genetic code" of the entire Cosmos, as well as all the potential beings in it. One basic premise is that -- since Absolute Space must be infinitely divisible -- so must be the "spinergy" that surrounds every infinite zero-point that, paradoxically (from a physical or linear-space-time point of view) must all be in the same place, or spatial location, prior to manifestation. That is, before the emanation of the Cosmos, the birth of any Quasar, or prior to the Big bang (that Science wrongly assumes was the beginning of this physical universe alone). When the primal or noumenal "spinergy" first awakens to come into phenomenal "existence," it emanates, at near infinite frequency/energy, the dual, positive and negative ray (moving linearly in opposite directions, in a 3 cycle spiral vortex (Mobius-like) path which weaves (since the point is also spinning in a perpendicular direction to the original emanation) the first Cosmic Monad consisting of three cyclic fields (two inner fields within a surrounding field, like bubbles within a bubble) -- which represents the first spiritual root of all subsequent Monads. The parallel dual rays (although spiraling like the DNA molecule) that weaves the outer circumferences of these fields, are probably analogous to what Science (in current M-theory) calls "Superstrings." It is also postulated that, since the dual ray is both positive and negative (in direction of propagation) they could be the roots of what in current science is spoken of as "Light Matter" and "Dark Matter." However, another hypothetical possibility is that the twin spiraling rays carry -- in their individual vibrations (whose peaks and valleys could be analogous to the "strings" of current physics) that meet between them (like the ladders of bases in between the DNA spiral strands) --the entire "construction" code of Cosmogenesis. It only remains for the first intelligent beings to properly place these constructions in their rightful places... (Something, science still hasn't entirely figured out with respect to the human body and its varying proteins that go to different places in the body -- since they can't comprehend how intelligence could operate at the cellular levels, and have no understanding of the intelligent coenergetic** relationship between the coadunate Astral Body and the Physical Body.) **Coenergetic, referring to the inductive resonance between the energy vibrational patterns of one higher order field that induce an analogous pattern in the adjacent lower order field -- much like striking a G-string of a violin induces a similar vibration in the G-string of a nearby bass fiddle, along with all its overtones. To visualize how these fields initially form the primal Monad and subsequently involve fractally -- i.e., one divides into two to form three, in an infinite series --starting from "chaos" to ultimate octaval "order" (after three iterations or "logos" ) -- and continuing inward, ad infinitum, see: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif Incidentally, since all the space-time fields that emanate from the "spinergy" are joined together with their "Superstrings" (or woven rays of energy that make up the circumferences of the fields) in the form of "Gordian knots," so to speak -- it could take quite a twist of mind to follow the Mobius-like twists of fields with fields within fields, etc. ... So, we shouldn't be discouraged if it takes much long and arduous meditative practice to arrive at the clear state of its comprehension or visualization (that Patanjali implies is a necessary requirement prior to enlightenment :-) Could that be why HPB placed so much emphasis on understanding the metaphysics of theosophy and its scientific correlation's? What good is the Heart Doctrine in helping and teaching others on the path and fulfilling the plan of universal evolution, without a complete and effective understanding or how the Macrocosm and the microcosm actually work and interrelate with each other? The basis of all the siddhis (psychic powers), including the powers of will and self healing, rests on this comprehension. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >The lowest region of Akasha, immediately above the gross physical plane, >is termed the Astral Light. It is "the invisible region that surrounds our >globe" and everything in it, and corresponds to the subtle vehicle or >"double" in man, the Linga-sharira. In it is impressed indelibly everything >that takes place in the physical, psychical, and mental realms. It is thus >the storehouse of memory, both in the cosmos and in mankind. >"Akasha - the subtle supersensuous spiritual essence which pervades all >space." These last few weeks there has been much discussion on God, and >the nature of divinity. As theosophists, we believe that there is something >more than a God. And we identify this something as the Absolute, yet we >give it no attributes, except to say what it is not and what it is not >practically covers everything. Yet, we are left struggling to come to terms >with this something, through words and concepts... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ As ABC theory sees it, this subtle "Astral light," is considered the analogous "light" range of the energy-frequency spectrum of each higher field that is analogous and corresponds to the "Sidereal light" of the gross physical universe. Thus the inner light we experience is not the Sidereal light we detect with our physical eyes, but is actually the "Astral light" we see only through our mind's eye (as a hologram in the Astral Mind field reconstructed by a coherent ray of Astral light projected from the "spinergy" surrounding our zero-point center of visual perception located in the Pineal area) -- whether awake or in our dreams -- since the Sidereal light never gets past the retinas of our physical eyes. When we raise our consciousness to the higher fields of Buddhi and Atma, we can experience (see, feel, etc.) the higher order frequencies of Astral light on those planes. Such experiences are purely subjective and we can only explain them to others indirectly as one sort of feeling of ecstasy or another, or by metaphorical analogies and correspondences -- e.g., "Smells like a rose" or "Tastes like honey," etc., etc. However, we can never explain any of this "scientifically" in objective or empirical terms -- since there is no way, using our instruments on the physical plane, that we can measure these higher frequency orders -- but can only "experience" them subjectively. The same can be said for the concept of the infinite Absolute -- which is ineffable and beyond the comprehension of the finite mind -- thus, divine, in an of itself. All this clears up when we consider that the zero-point at the center of origin of each monadic field is the source of all conscious experience or awareness. Therefore, we are each, in our own individual Monad's zero-point of origin, an individual "spark" at the center of the highest Self -- which is, in essence, the latent consciousness of the Absolute. This consciousness only becomes "experiential," as an individual Self (which we can call "God consciousness") at the zero-center of the primal Monad of the Cosmos and any Galactic or Solar System in it, down to each individual human being. Subsequently, as this primal Monad goes through its 14 initial involution's, the consciousness of the Dhyan Chohans awaken in successive hierarchical order until the primordial physical Universe appears. Of course, in our measure of time, all this occurs simultaneously -- since each successive field has a time constant (or "ultimate division of time") consistent with its energy-frequency order -- which extends from near infinite on the highest plane to the finite spectrum of the lowest physical plane. Note that "plane" is used, theosophically -- since all phenomena, which is fundamentally "electrical" in nature, occurs on the circumferential surface of each of the globular "fields" of consciousness. Science confirms this, as Einstein showed us -- since he proved that this infinite "surface" of space is flat in the short view but also curved in the long view. From a physical point of view, the metaphorical analogy is that; Space can be imagined as an immense blanket woven of primal lines (or rays or Superstrings) of "Primal Force," and that galaxies are wrinkles in the blanket -- with stars wrinkles in the galactic wrinkles, and planets wrinkles in the star wrinkles, ad infinitum. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > One evening, as I struggled to get a handle on this idea of an Absolute, >I wandered out into the garden. It was late fall, just like it is now and >the sky was crystal clear and slightly blue, the moon providing a soft >light. I sat down and looked up at the sky taking in the stars. Then with >my mind I pictured the universe as it would be beyond our atmosphere, and >with my mind I traveled farther out taking in the nebulas and the galaxies >that spread out across the universe. Like Hubble I tried with my mind to >reach the very ends of the universe and go beyond. In that still night, >I felt the energy that surrounds us and fills us with it vibrancy, I heard >the low hum that one hears in the silence, and slowly I sensed another >reaching back. And I knew it could not be contained in words and concepts, >even in an idea. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes, even science cannot explain the "experience" of consciousness -- which must remain forever that which we can only feel and know inside ourselves, by ourselves. Your expressions and impressions described so poetically above, I'm afraid, is the closest any of us can ever come to picturing such transcendental experiences to others. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Why does Theosophy not bother to define the Absolute? Should we bother >to define what is not? Is Consciousness the same as the Absolute, or are we >once again trying to put terms to a term-less something? >Is the Akasha the first manifestation of the Absolute? >Is there a difference between the linga-sharira and the aura? >Why does science not recognize this Akasha, and yet recognize that space >is not empty? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Perhaps, the above outline of how scientific thinking can be merged with theosophy makes all this a little clearer. Even today, science with its Superstring/M-brane theories, postulating "11 dimensions" of Space (7 hyperspace, 3 physical, plus time), is coming closer and closer to the theosophical metaphysics -- which can be described philosophically, as did HPB (using theosophical jargon that possibly only a studied theosophist with a scientific background along with a fair knowledge of Sanskrit could understand thoroughly) -- and, ultimately, merged it with science... (As further clarified by the ABC theoretical interpretation which bridges theosophical metaphysics with the leading edges of postmodern science.) See: http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics -- along with my previous letters on ABC in this and other online forums. The real problem with reductive Science as practiced today, is that they cannot get a handle on consciousness and its relationship to matter, or even the connections between mind and brain. They call it the "hard problem" of consciousness and the "binding problem" of mind to brain. Until they solve these two conundrums, there can never be a scientific understanding of the true nature of both subjective and objective reality. On the substantial or energetic side, "M-theory" is getting very close to the theosophical metaphysics that speaks of multidimensional enfolded fields -- which science labels ZPE or "zero-point energies"... But, on the consciousness side, they are lost until they can fit perceptive awareness and will or intent into their equations. In any event, neither theosophy, ABC, nor Superstring/M-brane theory -- no matter how close they get to a "Unified Field Theory of Everything" -- can ever explain the nature of the Absolute (the rootless root of all)... That is forever beyond the comprehension of all manifest consciousness -- i.e., beyond even the ubiquitous "zero-point" itself (the root of both our awareness and our will), or its "spinergy" (the root of all substantial matter-energies) ... Yet, both of which forever remains in close intimacy with that forever unknown Absolute (pre-being or "Beness") Principle upon which everything in the Cosmos or in our phenomenal universe rests, and has their being in. Lenny >Estela From samblo@cs.com Fri Dec 03 03:16:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20005 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 11:16:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 11:16:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 11:16:47 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e4.2f921603 (4446) for ; Fri, 3 Dec 2004 06:16:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e4.2f921603.2ee1a51b@cs.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 06:16:43 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.38 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South Americ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Mauri, Thanks for your comments. In the UFO case years ago Viracocha was referred to as "Ticci Viracocha" having the same tradition you relate from Graham Handcock's book. The Nasca Culture was recent comparatively, A.D., Maria Reich spent most of her life in situ documenting the Nasca lines and figures which are of a distinctly different type than the more recent Crop Circles. Prof. Arthuro Posnansky catalogued the Tiahuanaco remains, spending over 20 years in situ in the effort. Much of the remains of the Tiahuanaco culture were buried in a flood plain from the deluge you cited. Posnansky dated Tiahuanaco at 15,538 Years B.C. that being the "Middle Period" of the Tiahuanaco Culture. Posnanskys great work in Quatro volumes is "Tiahuanaco -- Cradle of American Man" published by the Government of Bolivia. In those volumes there is a glyph of a "European Wizard" with a High conical hat, sporting what appears to be a "Scottish Kilt," it is an enigma. The Spanish destroyed many of the priceless 18 foot high Monolithic Statues which were covered top to bottom in glyphs which I was told many years ago described the various Disciplines and scientific knowledge such as Astronomy. One of the best resources I know of on Nasca and it's lines is published by: KUNSTRAUM MUNCHEN in collaboration with Maria Reich 1974, titled "Peruvian Ground Drawings." One mythology found in the modern UFO culture in America is that some believe that it is at the Nasca Plain that the "Condor Fleet" is stored beneath the ground under the symbolic figures awaiting an appointed time for their reappearance. In one of his "abductions" the experiencer I was involved with was taken before dawn to Nasca and set down in his jockey shorts on the regenerative leg of the "Spider" figure at Nasca and given instruction to follow relating to it. At the North end of Nasca there is a river named "Rio Ingenio" which means River of the Supermind or Genius. Ticci Viracocha walked "on the foam of the Ocean," Krishna churned and produced the Foam of the Ocean also, Jesus was alleged to have walked upon the waters. Tulku's are called Sky Walkers. Hmmm. BTW, I haven't read any of Graham Handcock's books, yet. John From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Dec 03 05:22:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51895 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 13:22:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 13:22:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yahoogroups.com) (80.202.237.234) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 13:22:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:23:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.202.237.234 From: stevestubbs@yahoo.com Subject: thanks! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your details. +++ Attachment: No Virus found +++ Panda AntiVirus - www.pandasoftware.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Fri Dec 03 10:50:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40092 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 18:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 18:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 18:50:03 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail22.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.162]) by smtpout03.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5BPLFA66H8XJ for (sender ); Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:49:41 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvJL60iRyOuf1hxv9oIzm+aA== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail22.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KDXS9PHE; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:48:40 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail22.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:47:46 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:47:46 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041203.104840.17152.41751@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 19:9:1296263906 X-MAIL-INFO:498b8a4a4fc78b17936e73b75fc3f393436b270f47e78e9e7a1be7fe5703270f7b6eeb5707d7022f2a7b3e3efe2be3232b036703025a4e9a5a43a7afc3731773f38b0b6a8b1ea38b1e270b5f07dbdb33aa632aaa5ebe5ef7b71ad7b7da3a0b67470e4702bf3e2fbf1fa7bf1f3b3e X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" bo ok by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina Autocracy and the TS I was told when I joined and immediately became a president of a Lodge, that the TS was an autocracy. It has proved to be just that. Uphappily, Regina -- "Perry Coles" wrote: Thanks Daniel and Katinka This is a good article.... It's interesting how this concept of a "successor" is an issue of great debate in the various Theosophical Societies. A similar problem is in the various Radhasoami groups who all argue over "successor –ship". While in the Radhasoami's I can understand why there is an issue over this due to their belief in need for a "perfect Master" to guide the initiates. In Theosophy however there is no such concept as each student must walk his or her own path. Is this need for "successors" based in the need for a rescuer or perhaps a hangover from the old hierarchical mindset and "divine Kings and Queens" being crowned with power from on high or perhaps HPB's highly "magnetised" Divine Ring of power. Maybe both Judge and Besant where still of this ilk. De Purucker's writings also express this authoritarian / hierarchical type of mindset of course it goes without saying CWL was a complete shocker when it came to pronouncements and his belief in superiority of the ruling classes. It's interesting that the society was set up on a democratic system rather than an autocracy or some kind of theosophical monarchy with "successors". It's a shame that the society fell into the trap of guru following and this nonsense idea of successor-ship and divine oracles, rather than implementing the principles of democracy on which the society was established. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Recently the following book was published: > > The Judge Case: A Conspiracy Which > Ruined the Theosophical Cause > by Ernest E. Pelletier > > Ordering information can be found at: > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/ets_judge_case.pdf > > Katinka Hesselink, editor of Lucifer7, has > now written and published an informative review of > this book in the latest December 2004 > issue of Lucifer7. See: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lucifer7/message/17 > > I have reprinted the review in an easier format > to print at: > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm > > Katinka also compiled a more complete table of contents > for the book under review. I have also created a pdf version > of this more complete table that will be easier to read > and print out at: > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/wqjcasetableofcontents.pdf > > I am hoping that Ernest Pelletier will respond to Katinka's > review on this Theos-Talk forum which is open to the public > and is also indexed by Google. > > Later I plan to add a few comments of my own on "The Judge > Case" book and also on Katinka's review. > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER > http://hpb.cc Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Dec 03 12:52:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35083 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 20:52:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 20:52:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 20:52:33 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaKPo-00088g-Bt for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:52:32 -0500 Message-ID: <41B0D216.4020703@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:52:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041203.104840.17152.41751@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041203.104840.17152.41751@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba5113af02d9f1ea36e1a8a798bd769515bca2f000fc72cd8d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" bo ok by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Regina St Clare wrote: > I was told when I joined and immediately became a president of a > Lodge, that the TS was an autocracy. > > It has proved to be just that. As one who is vaguely (emphasis on the word, "vaguely") familiar with your situation, I'd be interested if you can elaborate. Bart From dharao4@yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 03 13:32:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53100 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2004 21:32:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2004 21:32:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.54) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2004 21:32:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 39900 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Dec 2004 21:32:04 -0000 Message-ID: <20041203213204.39898.qmail@web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.229.36.141] by web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:32:04 GMT Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:32:04 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.54 From: robert searle Subject: The Question of Power. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear All, The problem of power and who takes it is not something limited to the errings of certain careerist Theosophists but can also be found in gurudom....and indeed, in many other walks of life. I was a member of the TS in the 1980s and hope to rejoin for research reasons as the library at the London Centre is always useful. However, I met someone who may be still alive, and her name was Miss Storey if I recall rightly. She had what was termed a gammey leg but what struck me most was her evident interest in climbing up the Theosophical promotion ladder. In other words, she had a thirst for "power". This I found to be somewhat odd as TS is meant to be interested in the spiritual. Infact, one reason why I left it was because I found the members cold, and unfriendly. However, if I went to a Radhasoami Satsang meeting the whole room would be saturated with the pure vibrant energies of love which would lift my conciousness upwards. At the TS I felt I had entered a funeral parlour, or a mausoleum which is a shame. Otherwise, I have great respect for the writings of the Theosophists notably ofcourse Blavatsky, and Leadbeater. I assume Leslie Price still plays at active part in the TS. What fascinated me about him was his sharp mind, and alert attention. ___________________________________________________________ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ringding777@t-online.de Sat Dec 04 01:59:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26335 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 09:59:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 09:59:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout04.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.18) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 09:59:52 -0000 Received: from fwd08.aul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CaWhj-00089u-03; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 10:59:51 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (ZezbP4ZHYe9CAh7oVGPh0+q+toKtPvQbv8vr-As40wd1htY4-GFesK@[217.86.143.183]) by fwd08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CaWhf-2CC9qa0; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 10:59:47 +0100 Message-ID: <006301c4d9e8$530edea0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: <20041203.104840.17152.41751@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 11:02:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: ZezbP4ZHYe9CAh7oVGPh0+q+toKtPvQbv8vr-As40wd1htY4-GFesK X-TOI-MSGID: b3da9653-ee68-4c92-9b3b-718e24ed8641 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.18 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" book by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Regina, to understand better what you mean: Of which so-called TS do you speak? And do you refer to an autocracy of humans or an autocracy of super humans? Thanks Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Regina St Clare" To: Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Review by Katinka Hesselink of "The Judge Case" book by Ernest E. Pelletier Autocracy and the TS I was told when I joined and immediately became a president of a Lodge, that the TS was an autocracy. It has proved to be just that. Uphappily, Regina From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 04 04:15:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17678 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 12:15:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 12:15:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 12:15:08 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.79] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaYoM-0008WT-7e; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 07:15:00 -0500 To: Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 04:14:25 -0800 Message-ID: <001001c4d9fa$d957d540$4fdeb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec791f58e8fb383a5ff17938795e60880d44350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.79 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Love X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Cassilva Questions=20=20=20 Dec 3 2004 Dear Friends: 1 Questions C First of all lets define IMAGINATION.=20 C Lower Imagination: the mind will construct an image (subjective) as if it were a tangible thing. Imagination connected with fancy or desire. The desire and the image and the mind are all mixed together, and the result, instead of being a training of the image making power, is to bring on a decay of that power and results only in a continual flying to the image of the thing desired.=20=20 C Higher Imagination: Imagination under control (or your word, manipulation) of the will has to be able to make a picture of anything at any time, and if this power has not been trained the possession of other sorts of knowledge will not enable one to perform certain classes of occult phenomenon. = =20 C The imagination makes a picture of each word (or thing) of each letter of every line in every letter and having made that picture it is held there by the will and the imagination acting together for such a length of time as is needed to permit the carbons or other substances to be strained down through this matrix and appear in another location. Sending messages by words which the receiver is to hear is done by making an image of the person who is the recipient is to be made and held in place - you have to become a camera= . ----------------------------------------------- DTB=09=20=20 =93Imagination. In Occultism this is not to be confused with fancy, as it i= s one of the plastic powers of the higher Soul, and is the memory of the preceding incarnations, which, however disfigured by the lower Manas, yet rests always on a ground of truth.=94 T. Glos 152 >From J.V. - "There are two ways to ascend and descend, the direct and indirect." Tea Table, Oct. Path. (I) What are these ways? Answer - The thistle down is blown hither and thither with every breath of wind: The arrow speeds straight to the mark from the powerful bow= . The indirect way is that of the thistle down; the Astral going out when the body is asleep, does so in a diffused condition - a passive state - with no adequate force to control it or master unseen forces. It floats at the merc= y of every current in the Astral, gleaning here and there as a butterfly but taking the good and bad indiscriminately. It may reach high spheres, but is more likely to remain in those nearest to the physical. This way is travelled by all when asleep, and there dreams are made. It is the passive state where desire is the ruler, and sometimes travelled in the waking conscious state, but is uncontrollable and unreliable. The direct way is that of the arrow from the bow. The Astral speeds directl= y to the sphere which holds the knowledge it is to receive. It does so in obedience to an irresistible force - the Will: Will in accordance with divine law. It is concrete going and returning in obedience to this force, bringing little with it from intermediate spheres other than that for which it is seeking. This occurs in dreamless slumber and the knowledge acquired is not communicated in a dream. This way is travelled in the conscious stat= e for it is the way of the student of the Occult. Unless the man's thought an= d motive are pure, he is incapable of using the true will, and his Astral goe= s where other wills or forces drive it. It pauses when other forces interfere - learns from the place it happens to be in, and brings back a horrible jumble sometimes. (2) Where do these ways lead? Ans One way leads to Theosophia - Illumination - when traveled awake or asleep. The other to consideration of self - ordinary living with its erroneous conceptions - as an Occult way, to love of phenomena and spiritism. They lead to spheres within the astral, for the astral body passes not beyond astral limits. Only when the soul is freed from the astral and material bodies does it pass to higher spheres. These ways also lead to planets, stars, and other worlds, for all these may be within the astral of this globe. >From M.J.G. - Whence come the visions seen just before dropping to sleep?= =20 A They are uncontrollable - sometimes unpleasant, and have increased since childhood, and since beginning the study of Occultism. Answer - When we enter that condition called sleep, we open wide the doors and windows of the body or this house we live in, and the soul goes forth a= s a bird freed from its cage. In partial unconsciousness or falling into sleep, the body has, to a great extent, ceased to act, but the brain is still sensitive or receptive to the pictures or impressions of the Astral. Of the lower principles the Astral is the last to cease action either in sleep or death. The brain is its instrument. In the partial somnolent condition, the pictures of the Astral are conveyed to the brain; through that the outer man realizes and beholds the visions. If he were fully aslee= p these visions would be dreams. Precisely, as dreams, they may be either pleasant or the reverse. Like dreams they are uncontrollable by the ordinar= y every day mortal. The Occultist being master of himself beholds only that which he desires, either in vision, or dream, or neither. As one makes himself more sensitive to impressions from the Astral when and after he begins the study of Occultism, visions and dreams will increase in frequenc= y for a time. >From J.C.V. - What is true Will? Is it a faculty of the soul? How is it one with the Divine Will and how may we make our will at one with the Divine? Is it something which now we know not, or may we perceive its germ in our own Will, or is it an instinctive movement of the soul? Answer - (I) The will as known to man is that force which he exerts for the accomplishment of his aims - he uses it blindly and ignorantly - an= d self is always the one for which he uses it. It is used as a brute force. A= s ordinarily used it has little tendency to lift the personality farther than the attainment of material results. It has for its source, the lower elements of the soul. The true will is a concentrated force working steadil= y yet gently, dominating both soul and person, having its source in the spiri= t and highest elements of the soul. It is never used for the gratification of self, is inspired by the highest of motives, is never interposed to violate a law, but works in harmony with the unseen as well as the seen. It is manifested through the human will for things visible. (2) It is more that a faculty of the soul, for it is the soul at work. The spirit is unmanifest except through the soul. The soul manifesting the spirit is the true will. The human will is the lowest form of this manifestation. (3) As the true will is the manifestation of the spirit through the soul, i= t must be at one with the divine, inasmuch as the spirit is the divine in man= . It is the God in man, a portion of the all-pervading. Asserting itself through the soul, the true will is brought forth and in truth we say, "It i= s the will of God." We may make our finite wills at one with the divine by elevating our aim, using it for good or in the search for God, in striving to find how to use it in harmony with the laws of God. By proper use in the right direction the human will becomes purified, elevated, and being exerte= d only in conformity with our highest ideal, eventually becomes at one with the highest in man. In our ordinary material state we know only the human will. Through the human will we reach the divine will. We become aware of the true will through the ordinary will just as we become aware of the soul through the body. It is not instinctive of the soul. The soul is father of the human will - the spirit is father of the true will. >From E.L.T. - "A great deal depends on purity of thought and motive," Oct. Path, p. 220. Please explain what should be the actuating motive in developing psychic capacities. Answer - The desire to find God, the desire to know one's self, our possibilities and capabilities, that we may be of true use to the world, these are the motives. The thought should be unselfish, undisturbed by material affairs - free from wonder-seeking curiosity, concentrated, and in entire accord with the motive, the search for God. ANS TO Q -- W Q J ------------------------------------------- C KARMA: Karma is not a doctrine of an eye for an eye. It is a doctrine of learning. If you think, act, or desire harm or happiness towards others, it is returned to you. If you harm someone, then to understand the harm yo= u caused you need to experience it for yourself. In that way you, are knowledgeable, and if you are smart, and don=92t want to feel that pain again, you will learn from the experience. C Yes if we are energy, is it such a leap of faith, to think that our mental thoughts are made up of energy, and if you can accept that, then you should be able to accept that like attracts like, and if you have a thought that corresponds with the thinking of others in the universe, wont that energy attract itself to like. If you don't have a corresponding attitude then the thought will not be attracted to you. C Please define Beness: Being or Beness is simply "existing" in my understanding, and according to some philosophers is the same as living meaninglessly. DTB=09 KARMA IS UNIVERSAL LAW =96 it is Brotherhood in action everywhere. All bein= gs are subject to Karma. It provides life and environment to all. It is universally sensitive and adjusts all wrongs.=20=20 =93KARMA (Sk.). Physically, action: metaphysically, the LAW OF RETRIBUTION, the Law of cause and effect or Ethical Causation. Nemesis, only in one sense, that of bad Karma. It is the eleventh Nidana in the concatenation of causes and effects in orthodox Buddhism ; yet it is the power that controls all things, the resultant of moral action, the meta physical Samsk=E2ra, or the moral effect of an act committed for the attainment of something which gratifies a personal desire.=20 There is the Karma of merit and the Karma of demerit. Karma neither punishe= s nor rewards, it is simply the one Universal LAW which guides unerringly, and, so to say, blindly, all other laws productive of certain effects along the grooves of their respective causations. When Buddhism teaches that =93Karma is that moral kernel (of any being) which alone survives death and continues in transmigration =91 or reincarnation, it simply means that ther= e remains nought after each Personality but the causes produced by it ; cause= s which are undying, i.e., which cannot be eliminated from the Universe until replaced by their legitimate effects, and wiped out by them, so to speak, and such causes=97unless compensated during the life of the person who produced them with adequate effects, will follow the reincarnated Ego, and reach it in its subsequent reincarnation until a harmony between effects an= d causes is fully reestablished.=20 No =93personality=94=97a mere bundle of material atoms and of instinctual a= nd mental characteristics=97can of course continue, as such, in the world of p= ure Spirit.=20 Only that which is immortal in its very nature and divine in its essence, namely, the Ego, can exist for ever. And as it is that Ego which chooses th= e personality it will inform, after each Devachan, and which receives through these personalities the effects of the Karmic causes produced, it is therefore the Ego, that self which is the =93moral kernel=94 referred to an= d embodied karma, =93which alone survives death.=94 T GLOSSARY. pp 173-4 DTB BE-NESS is the absolute indescribable background to all life. It is a term that indicates the continuity of all consciousness throughout the period of rest called a Pralaya. =93BE-NESS. A term coined by Theosophists to render more accurately the essential meaning of the untranslatable word SAT. The latter word does not mean =93Being=94 for it presupposes a sentient feeling or some consciousnes= s of existence. But, as the term Sat is applied solely to the absolute Principle= , the universal, unknown, and ever unknowable Presence, which philosophical Pantheism postulates in Kosmos, calling it the basic root of Kosmos. and Kosmos itself=97 =93Being=94 was no fit word to express it. Indeed, the lat= ter is not even, as translated by some Orientalists, =93the incomprehensible Entit= y=94; for it is no more an Entity than a non-Entity, but both. It is, as said, absolute Be-ness, not Being, the one secondless, undivided, and indivisible All=97the root of all Nature visible and invisible, objective and subjectiv= e, to be sensed by the highest spiritual intuition, but=92 never to be fully comprehended.=94 Glos p 53 >From M.E.C. - What steps must I take to open the heart so as to exercise the Will for governing the Astral body? Answer - There is but one way to open the heart. That is by living the life= . It is a simple matter to govern the will, but this is not the true will. Th= e governing of the Astral body is the smallest of the tasks of the true will. The will should be used to obtain wisdom, and when so used it will control the Astral body without effort. We should exert psychic powers only to benefit others, never to free ourselves from the disagreeable. Let you aim be to find God; your motive, to know yourself for the sake of Theo-Sophia and humanity: you desire, to help humanity, and the True Will will be developed, the heart opened and you will not only control the Astral body but all in the Astral.=20 You must seek beyond the Astral for powers, but it is not wise to desire th= e acquisition of powers. Let your aim be beyond that, and the powers will gro= w of themselves. If the strong-willed or sick depress you, seek to aid each i= n some way, forget that you are depressed, forget your self, and they will no= t affect you.=20 The life of the Occult student is full of sorrow, anguish and depressing influences. These go to make him a student in the Occult.=20 A portion of his training is to become aware of these only in so far as the= y affect others. As to their affecting his own personality, he does not know they exist. If you desire to help humanity, then you possess the true motive. If you use your will in this cause, wisdom, peace and all the power= s will be given. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 2 NON-ATTACHMENT or ISOLATION Q: C I also want to know how we are meant to be non-attached. I am referring to those that we love, how are we supposed to dis-attach ourselve= s from them, as did Gautama. To me this non-attachment leads to isolation. DTB=09 Motive is everything. Love is the one affection that binds all life together. It is all the virtues taken together in application. Vice or selfishness is destructive and causes all "bad karma." =93Non-attachment=94 means fairness and equity in the treatment of others. = We should love all our fellows, neighbors and family equally. >From Walter B. - (I) Is it well to cultivate the intellect at the expense of the heart? Do we not pay too much attention to intellectual progress, and in so doing allow the Heart-Mind to wander where it may? Answer - It is not wise to cultivate either at the expense of the other. Each alone will end at the same place - The Threshold. Both are excellent means for the manifestation of that which is higher that either, when cultivated to their highest in unison. Both are useless after a certain point, except as tools for truth. Metaphysics, logic and emotion all end at a dead wall. >From Adelphi - A most perplexed individual is writing to you. I have been for three years endeavoring to study Theosophy. I have heard lectures, have read an immense amount of literature devoted to that cult, from the sages of old down to the Sinnetts, Olcotts, and Blavatskys of the present day. I have conned the Yoga Philosophy and I read The Path. Light o= n the Path aids me not, nor does Bhagavad Gita, and why? Because I am yet without the first steps towards practice. (Surely Theosophy - like other sciences - must have something practical about it?) Guide me with your friendly hints. Imagine me alone in a room. How to commence? Show me the first step upon the practical ladder! All I have heard and read seemeth to me so elaborately unintelligible that I lay it aside and beg you to instruc= t me in my Theosophical A B C, Astral Light! Is it a figurative light, i.e. Revelation? or is it a light, as electricity - the Heavens - coal - gives light? If abstract (into insensibility) is necessary, can you instruct me upon Hypnotism (self mesmerism)? "A shining object" is advised to stare at! A mirror is a shining object, for instance. But of what avail to stare at a mirror and see reflected ugliness! Answer - You say that for three years you have been endeavoring to study Theosophy. Such being the case, you will meet with but little success. Divine Wisdom can not be a subject for study, but it may be an object of search. With the love for this same wisdom uppermost in our hearts, we ask you if it would not be wiser to lay aside the study of so called Theosophy and study yourself. Knowing yourself you know all men, the worlds seen and occult, and find Theo-Sophia.=20 One cannot absorb Theosophy as a sponge does water, to be expelled at the slightest touch. Our conception of Theosophy is apt to be based upon the idea that it is an especial line of teaching - a larger, wider, and great doctrine than others perhaps, but still a doctrine, and therefore limited.= =20 We must bear in mind that the true Theosophist belongs to no cult or sect, yet belongs to each and all; that he can find the true object of his search equally as well in the Hebrew bible as in the Yoga philosophy, in the New Testament equally as well as in the Bhagavad-Gita. You say you have "conned the Yoga philosophy." This is not enough; merely t= o "con" it is not to know it. It is in fact a most practical system (if you refer to that of Patanjali), and one that will meet all requirements you have in the way of difficulty; for it is one of the most difficult. It is not possible for you to judge its merits without practice: and it gives ful= l directions.=20 If for three years you study and practice it - aye for one year -, you will find that you need no other. In these matters there is no child's play nor the usual English and American method of mere book-learning, - we must absorb and work into the practice and the theory laid down, for they are no= t written merely for the intellect, but for the whole spiritual nature.=20 There must be within the man something which he already knows, that leaps u= p and out when he scans the books of wisdom; a thing already existing, which only takes an added life or confirmation from books. True Theosophy has all that is practical, but many forget this; there is no greater system of practice than that required by it. Desire wisdom; love all men; do your duty; forget yourself; let each though= t and act of your life have for its aim the finding of divine wisdom; strive to apply that wisdom for he good of other men. If you search in every direction, Light must come to you. Let the place in which you now are be th= e lonely room you speak of, and seek to find in everything the meaning.=20 Strive to know what they are, and by what governed or caused. This the firs= t step. Live your life with this ever before you. Purify your thought as well as your body. Reason all you can, feel all with your heart you may, and whe= n intellect and heart fail you, seek for something higher. This is the A.B.C.= ; it is enough for the present. It is not Theosophy that is a science, but its application. It is not a "cult," for it covers and includes all. The Astral Light is an actuality. It is not revelation, but a means through which that which causes revelation acts. Electricity, the heavens, all lowe= r fires, are but the shadows of the Astral Light, just as the Astral Light is but the darkness of the Ineffable Light. Abstraction into insensibility is not intended. If it had been so intended it would be unnecessary for us to be in these bodies. If you can forget yourself sufficiently - forget that you exist as a human body, you will not need to stare at a mirror; but so long as you realize, when staring into a glass, whether you be pretty or ugly, you can not reach Celestial sensibility or terrestrial insensibility. Hypnotism is the controlling of other personalities. Under this you would b= e but a puppet for the thought of another. Your outer self had better become = a puppet for you own thought. We seek to make the body alive, not to kill it. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 3 Q.: I want to know why Animals suffer when there is obviously no Karma attached to their existence. DTB There are many reasons, as they are equally involved (as immortal monads) i= n evolution. Our own body is an "animal." It is informed by a "god-like consciousness" in potential. We share our monads with the animals and thus our Karma affects them. The great gap between us is the nature of the MIND= . They are still to acquire it.=20 DTB PROTECTION AND KINDNESS TO ANIMALS "...the purest as the noblest of all existing systems of ethics, Buddhism - -inculcates kindness and protection to every living creature, from animal and bird down to the creeping thing and even the reptile. Alone, our Western religion stands in its isolation, as a monument to the most giganti= c human selfishness ever evolved by human brain, without one word in favor of= , or for the protection of the poor animal." HPB Art II 328 KARMA OF ANIMALS "Animals have Karma, or consequence of act, but they have not man's responsibility. While they seem to suffer and enjoy, it is all without any self-consciousness, and hence is less in itself and less lasting in effect. Their karma is bound up with man; and he is the responsible one and will have to bear the responsibility, although they feel the burden directly." WQJ Art II 566=20=20 "...the effect of Karma upon the animals...(15) the whole of creation waits upon man and groans that he keeps back the enlightenment of all. What happens when...you crush out the life of a common croton bug ? Well, it is destroyed and you forget it. But you brought it to an untimely end, short though its life would have been. Imagine this being done at hundreds and thousands of places...Each of these little creatures had life, and energy; each some degree of intelligence, The sum total of effects of all these deaths of small things must be appreciable. If not, then our doctrines are wrong and there is no wrong in putting our the life of a human being ... [animals] killed for sport..." WQJ Art I 14-5 =09 "The brutes unconsciously are aware of the general human opposition, which in each human being they see focalized." WQJ Letters 87 KAMA - CENTER OF THE ANIMAL MAN "...(d) Kama rupa -- The seat of animal desires and passions. -- This i= s the center of the animal man, where lies the line of demarcation which separates the mortal man from the immortal entity." Key 91 SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS AND THE ABYSS=20 BETWEEN THE PSYCHIC AND THE NOETIC "...Self-consciousness belongs alone to man and proceeds from the SELF, the higher Manas. Only, whereas the psychic element (or Kama-manas) is common to both the animal and the human being--the far higher degree of its development in the latter resting merely on the greater perfection and sensitiveness of his cerebral cells--no physiologist...will ever be able to solve the mystery of the human mind, in its highest spiritual manifestation= , or in its dual aspect of the psychic and the noetic (or the manasic)...he would have to admit a lower (animal), and a higher (or divine) mind in man, or what is known in Occultism as the "personal" and the "impersonal" (10) Egos. For, between the psychic and the noetic, between the personality and the individuality, there exists the same abyss as between a "Jack the Ripper," and a holy Buddha." HPB Art II 9-10 "Between man and animal--whose Monads (or Jivas) are fundamentally identical--there is the impassable abyss of Mentality and Self-consciousness. What is human mind in it higher aspect, whence comes it, if it is not a portion of the essence--and, in some rare cases of incarnation, the very essence--of a higher Being: one from a higher and divine plane? Can man--a god in the animal form--be the product of Materia= l Nature by evolution alone. even as is the animal, which differs from man in external shape, but by no means in the materials of its physical fabric, an= d is informed by the same, though undeveloped, Monad--seeing that the intellectual potentialities of the two differ as the Sun does from the Glow-worm ? And what is it that creates such a difference, unless man is a= n animal plus a living god within his physical shell ?" S D II 81 NEPHESH -- THE ANIMAL SOUL "...(the) animal soul (Nephesh of the Hebrew Kabalist)...the ray which emanates from the Higher Manas or permanent EGO, and is that "principle" which forms the human mind--in animals instinct." Trans. 59 "...man has one "principle" more than the tiniest insect, but because man i= s a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles is absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 "A dog that has to exercise its own sagacity to find food, will sooner develop psychical powers in that direction, than one that does nothing but eat and sleep, and the individual or differentiated monad of the former wil= l sooner reach the condition necessary to enter the human kingdom. The rudiments of hope, patience, faith, fidelity, confidence, etc., are found i= n the animal kingdom." -- HPB Theosophist 5- p. 223=20 DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANIMALS AND MEN "The difference between animals and men is this: the former are ensouled b= y the "principles" potentially, the latter actually." Key 104=09 MAN'S FORM IS AN ANIMAL "Man...in his outward form, simply an animal, hardly more perfect than his pithecoid-like ancestor of the 3rd Round. He is a living body, not a livin= g being, since the realization of existence, the "Ego-Sum," necessitates self-consciousness, and an animal can only have direct consciousness, or instinct. The soul, whose body vehicle is the Astral, ethereo-substantial envelope, could die, and man be still living on earth--i.e., the soul could free itself from and quit the tabernacle for various reasons--such as insanity, spiritual and physical depravity, etc. Therefore that which living men (Initiates) can do, the Dhyanis, who have no physical body to hamper them, can do still better." SD I 134-5 MAN A PERFECTED ANIMAL -- VEHICLE OF A MONAD "...man is a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles i= s absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 LIGHTING UP OF THE MANAS (MIND) "Having passed through all the kingdoms of nature in the previous three Rounds, his physical frame--one adapted to the thermal conditions of those early periods--was ready to receive the divine Pilgrim at the first dawn of human life, i.e., 18,000,000 years ago. It is only at the (255) mid-point of the 3rd Root-Race that man was endowed with Manas. Once united the two and then the three made one; for though the lower animals, from the amoeba to man, received their monads, in which all the higher qualities are potential, all have to remain dormant till each reaches its human form, before which stage manas (mind) has no development in them. In the animals every principle is paralyzed, and in a fetus-like state, save the 2nd (vital) and the 3rd (the astral), and the rudiments of the 4th (Kama, which is desire, instinct) whose intensity and development varies and changes wit= h the species." S D II 254-5 "Atma-Buddhi [ Monad ] is dual and Manas is triple; inasmuch as the former has two aspects, and the latter three, i.e., as a principle per se, which gravitates, in its higher aspect, to Atma-Buddhi, and follows, in its lower nature, Kama, the seat of terrestrial divisions awakening to intelligence; and the third and last decidedly animal: i.e., Manas succumbs to the temptations of Kama." Men are made complete only during their third, towar= d the fourth cycle (race). They are made "gods" for good or evil, and responsible only when the two arcs meet (after 3 1/2 Rounds towards the fifth Race). They are made so by the Nirmanakaya (spiritual or astral remains) of the Rudra-Kumaras, "cursed to be reborn on earth again; meanin= g doomed in their natural turn to reincarnation in the higher ascending arc o= f the terrestrial cycle." SD II 254-5fn PHYSICAL MAN "The physical man is as little responsible as a dog or a mouse. For the bodily form all is over with the death of the body. But for the real SELF, that which emanated its own shadow, or the lower thinking personality, that enacted and pulled the wires during the life of the physical automaton, wil= l have to suffer conjointly with its factotum and alter ego in the next incarnation." Trans. 67 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:57 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] Love I also want to know how we are meant to be non-attached. I am referring to those that we love, how are we supposed to dis-attach ourselves from them, as did Gautama. To me this non-attachment leads to isolation. Cass From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 04 04:15:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8758 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 12:15:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 12:15:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 12:15:24 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.79] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaYoc-0008WT-Ak; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 07:15:14 -0500 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 04:14:25 -0800 Message-ID: <001801c4d9fa$e2c6fe80$4fdeb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c4803c63550ac8c3949a3a1e47340bc3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.222.79 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: THE RADHASOAMI FAITH, AND THEOSOPHY. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 3 2004 Dear Friends: Recent inquiries and exchanges on the subject of dreams and visions suggest this article be circulated for information . =20 SHALL WE TEACH CLAIRVOYANCE? A NOTE OF WARNING MY attention has been arrested by the address delivered in the Adyar course by Dr. Daly and reported in the September THEOSOPHIST. It is entitled "Clairvoyance." Coming out in the Adyar course, it has a certain flavor of authority which will appeal to many members of the Society and may cause them to adopt the suggestions for practice given in the latter part of the address. Yet at th= e same time it is very true that the Theosophical Society is not responsible for the utterances of members in their private capacity. The fact that clairvoyance is a power sought after by many persons cannot b= e disputed, but the questions, Is it well to try to develop clairvoyance? and Shall we teach it? have not yet been definitely decided. Hence I may be permitted to give my views upon them. At the outset I desire to declare my personal attitude on these questions and my beliefs as to facts. In using the term "clairvoyance" I intend to include in it all clear perception on that plane. I. I have for many years been convinced by proofs furnished by others and from personal experience that clairvoyance is a power belonging to man's s inner nature; and also that it is possessed by the animal kingdom. 2. This faculty is either inherited or educed by practice. 3. Those who have it by birth are generally physically diseased or nervousl= y deranged. The cases where clairvoyance is shown by a perfectly healthy and well-balanced person are rare. 4. The records of spiritualism for over forty years in America conclusively prove that clairvoyance cannot be safely sought after by persons who have n= o competent guide; that its pursuit has done harm; and that almost every medium to whom one puts the question "Am I able to develop clairvoyance?" will reply "Yes." 5. There are no competent guides in this pursuit to be found here or in Europe who are willing to teach one how to acquire it without danger. 6. The qualifications such a guide should possess render the finding of one difficult if not impossible. They are: the power to look within and see clearly the whole inner nature of the student; a complete knowledge of all the planes upon which clairvoyance acts, including knowledge of the source, the meaning, and the effect of all that is perceived by the clairvoyant; an= d last, but not least, the power to stop at will the exercise of the power. Evidently these requirements call for an adept. Who are the teachers of clairvoyance, and those who advise that it be practiced? In the main, the first are mediums, and any investigator knows how little they know.=20 Every one of them differs from every other in his powers. The majority have only one sort of clairvoyance; here and there are some who combine, at most= , three classes of the faculty.=20 Not a single one is able to mentally see behind the image or idea perceived= , and cannot say in a given case whether the image seen is the object itself or the result of a thought from another mind.=20 For in these planes of perception the thoughts of men become as objective a= s material objects are to our human eyes. It is true that a clairvoyant can tell you that what is being thus perceived is not apprehended by the physical eye, but beyond that he cannot go. Of this I have had hundreds of examples.=20 In 99 out of 100 instances the seer mistook the thought from another mind for a clairvoyant perception of a living person or physical object. The seers of whom I speak see always according to their inner tendency, which is governed by subtle laws of heredity which are wholly unknown to scientific men and much more to mediums and seers.=20 One will only reach the symbolic plane; another that which is known to occultists as the positive side of sound; another to the negative or positive aspects of the epidermis and its emanations; and so on through innumerable layer after layer of clairvoyance and octave after octave of vibrations.=20 They all know but the little they have experienced, and for any other perso= n to seek to develop the power is dangerous. The philosophy of it all, the laws that cause the image to appear and disappear, are terra incognita. The occult septenary scheme in nature with all its modifications produces multiple effects, and no mere clairvoyant is able to see the truth that underlies the simplest instance of clairvoyant perception. If a man moves from one chair to another, immediately hundreds of possibilities arise for the clairvoyant eye, and he alone who is a highly trained and philosophical seer -- an adept, in short -- can combine them all so as to arrive at true clear-perception. In the simple act described almost all the centres of force in the moving being go into operation, and each one produces its own peculiar effect in the astral light.=20 At once the motion made and thoughts aroused elicit their own sound, color, motion in ether, amount of etheric light, symbolic picture, disturbance of elemental forces, and so on through the great catalogue. Did but one wink his eye, the same effects follow in due order. And the seer can perceive bu= t that which attunes itself to his own development and personal peculiarities= , all limited in force and degree. What, may I ask, do clairvoyants know of the law of prevention or encrustation which is acting always with many people? Nothing, absolutely nothing. How do they explain those cases where, try as they will, they cannot see anything whatever regarding certain things?=20 Judging from human nature and the sordidness of many schools of clairvoyance, are we not safe in affirming that if there were any real or reliable clairvoyance about us now-a-days among those who offer to teach it or take pay for it, long ago fortunes would have been made by them, banks despoiled, lost articles found, and friends more often reunited?=20 Admitting that there have been sporadic instances of success on these lines= , does not the exception prove that true clairvoyance is not understood or likely to be? But what shall theosophists do? Stop all attempts at clairvoyance. And why? Because it leads them slowly but surely - almost beyond recall into an interior and exterior passive state where the will is gradually overpowered and they are at last in the power of the demons who lurk around the threshold of our consciousness.=20 Above all, follow no advice to "sit for development." Madness lies that way= . The feathery touches which come upon the skin while trying these experiment= s are said by mediums to be the gentle touches of "the spirits."=20 But they are not. They are caused by the ethereal fluids from within us making their way out through the skin and thus producing the illusion of a touch. When enough has gone out, then the victim is getting gradually negative, the future prey for spooks and will-o'-the-wisp images. "But what," they say, "shall we pursue and study?" Study the philosophy of life, leave the decorations that line the road of spiritual development for future lives, and practice altruism. WILLIAM Q. JUDGE Path, December, 1890 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------- =20 DELUSIONS OF CLAIRVOYANCE SOME years ago it was proposed that psychometry should be used in detecting crime and for the exposing of motive in all transactions between man and man. This, the alleged discoverer said, would alter the state of society by compelling people to be honest and by reducing crime.=20 Now for those who do not know, it may be well to say that when you psychometrize you take any object that has been in the immediate vicinity o= f any person or place of any action, or the writing of another, and by holdin= g it to your forehead or in the hand a picture of the event, the writer, the surroundings, and the history of the object, comes before your mental eye with more or less accuracy.=20 Time and distance are said to make no difference, for the wrapping from a mummy has been psychometrized by one who knew nothing about it, and the mummy with its supposed history accurately described. Letters also have bee= n similarly treated without reading them, and not only their contents given but also the unexpressed thoughts and the surroundings of the writers. Clairvoyants have also on innumerable occasions given correct descriptions of events and persons they could never have seen or known. But other innumerable times they have failed. Without doubt if the city government, or any body of people owning property that can be stolen, had in their employment a man or woman who could declar= e beyond possibility of ever failing where any stolen article was, and who stole it, and could in advance indicate a purpose on the part of another to steal, to trick, to lie, or otherwise do evil, one of two things would happen.=20 Either criminals or intending offenders would abide elsewhere, or some mean= s of getting rid of the clear-seer would be put into effect. Looking at the alluring possibilities of clairvoyance so far as it is understood, many persons have sighed for its power for several different reasons. Some would use it for the purposes described, but many another has thought of it merel= y as a new means for furthering personal ends. Its delusions are so manifold that, although mystical and psychical subject= s have obtained in the public mind a new standing, clairvoyance will not be other than a curiosity for some time, and when its phenomena and laws are well understood no reliance greater than now will be placed upon it. And even when individual clairvoyants of wonderful power are known, they will not be accessible for such uses, because, having reached their power by special training, the laws of their school will prohibit the exercise of th= e faculty at the bidding of selfish interest, whether on the one side or the other. If it were not always a matter of doubt and difficulty, natural clear-seers would have long ago demonstrated the unerring range of their vision by discovering criminals still uncaught, by pointing out where stolen property could be recovered, by putting a finger on a moral plague-spot which is known to exist but cannot be located. Yet this they have not done, and careful Theosophists are confirmed in the old teaching that the field of clairvoyance is full of delusions. Coming evil could in the same way be averted, since present error is the prelude and cause of future painful results. The prime cause for delusion is that the thought of anything makes around the thinker an image of the thing thought about. And all images in this thought-field are alike, since we remember an object by our thought-image o= f it, and not by carrying the object in our heads.=20 Hence the picture in our aura of what we have seen in the hands of another is of the same sort for untrained seers-as our ideas on the subject of events in which we have not participated.=20 So a clairvoyant may, and in fact does, mistake these thought-pictures one for the other, thus reducing the chances of certainty. If an anxious mother imagines her child in danger and with vivid bought pictures the details of = a railway accident, the picture the seer may see will be of something that never happened and is only the product of emotion or imagination. Mistakes in identity come next. These are more easily made a the astral plane, which is the means for clairvoyance, than yen upon the visible one, and will arise from numerous causes. So numerous and complex is this that t= o fully explain would not only be hopeless but tedious.=20 For instance, the person, say at a distance, to whom the clairvoyant eye is directed may look entirely different from reality, whether as clothing or physiognomy. He may, in the depths of winter, appear clad in spring clothing, and your clairvoyant report that, adding probably that it symbolizes something next spring. But, in fact, the spring clothing was due to his thoughts about well-worn comfortable suit of this sort throwing a glamour f the clothing before the vision of the seer. Some cases exactly like this I have known and verified. Or the lover, dwelling on the form and features of his beloved, or the criminal upon the one he has wronged, will work a protean change and destroy identification. Another source of error will be found in the unwitting transfer to the clairvoyant of your own thoughts, much altered either for better or worse. Or even the thoughts of some one else whom you have just met or heard from. For if you consult the seer on some line of thought, having just read the ideas on the same subject of another who thinks very strongly and very clearly, and whose character is overmastering, the clairvoyant will ten to one feel the influence of the other and give you his ideas. Reversion of image is the last I will refer to. It has been taught always i= n the unpopular school of Theosophy that the astral light reverses the images= , just as science knows the image a the retina is not upright.=20 Not only have the Cabalists said this, but also the Eastern schools, and those who now have studied these doctrines along Theosophical lines have discovered it to be a fact. So the untrained clairvoyant may see a number o= r amount backwards, or an object upside down in whole or in part.=20 The reliance we can place on the observations of untrained people in ordinary life the scientific schools and courts of law have long ago discovered; but seekers after the marvellous carelessly accept the observations of those who must be equally untrained in the field of clairvoyance. Of course there are many genuine cases of good clear-seeing, but the mass are not to be relied on. The cultivation of psychic senses is more difficult than any physical gymnastics, and the number of really trained clairvoyants in the Western world may be described by a nought written to the left. M. MORE Path, July, 1892 -------------------------------------------------------- Some further comments are given here: Moral States Classified "The following classification and discussion of the three qualities ( B. Gita, Ch. 14) illustrates the vital difference between the ancient, true psychology of the East, and what is termed Western psychology. Both abound in classifications; those of the East are much more numerous...and cover a wider field; Western psychology in its classifications refers solely to mental states. The psychology of the Gita and the ancient sages classify the moral states, treating the mental states as mere effects produced by moral conditions. Herein lies the secret of the hold the Gita has had all down the ages, and continues to have increasingly. It lays bare the unsuspected bases of error; it discloses the most subtle forms of self-delusion; it marks out the true course so painstakingly that the dullest mind cannot fail to grasp a clear perception of the path to true knowledge." G. N. p. 197 "...the word Kama...means "desire,"...the 4th principle was the "body or mass of desires and passions." [GITA NOTES 197: -- "Western psychology in classifications refers solely to mental states...[Eastern} and the ancient sages classifies the moral states, treating the mental states as mere effects produced by moral conditions...It lays bare unsuspected bases of error; it discloses the most subtle forms of self-delusion; it marks out the true course so painstakingly that the dullest mind cannot fail to grasp a clear perception of the path to true knowledge."]...The West divides man into intellect, will and feeling, but it is not understood whether the passions and desires constitute a principle in themselves or are due entirely to the body..."desires of the flesh,...fleshly appetites." OCEAN 45 WESTERN SCIENTIFIC PSYCHOLOGY STYMIED "The lack of an adequate system of Psychology is a natural consequence of the materialistic bias of Science and the paralyzing influence of dogmatic religion; the one ridiculing effort and blocking the way, the other forbidding investigation...Real psychology is an Oriental product today...the system was known in the West when a very ancient civilization flourished in America, and in certain parts of Europe anterior to the Christian era, but for the present day, psychology in its true sense belong= s to the Orient... "In man are the same powers and forces which are to be found anywhere in Nature. He is held by the Masters of Wisdom to be the highest product of the whole system of evolution, and mirrors in himself every power, however wonderful or terrible, of Nature; by the very fact of being such a mirror he is man." OCEAN 135-6 "Some day proofs as conclusive [as that of the theory of Evolution in the Rig Veda or the Books of Hermes] will be discovered of the reliability of the ancient writers as their evidence on psychological matters...There can be no real enfranchisement of human thought nor expansion of scientific discovery until the existence of spirit is recognized." - H.P.Blavatsky Modern Panarion, p. 93 PASSIONS AND DESIRES "The passions and desires are not produced by the body...on the contrary, the body is caused by the former. it is desire and passion which caused us to be born, and will bring us to birth again and again in some body on this earth...[it] is the balance principle of the whole 7. It stands in the middle, and from it the ways go up or down. It is the basis of action, and the mover of the will..."Behind will stands desire." OCEAN 46 "[Low desires] the constant placing of the consciousness entirely below in the body or astral body... [High desires] the influence of and aspiration to the trinity above, of Mind, Buddhi and Spirit... [During life] the emplacement of the desires and passions is...throughout the entire lower man...it may be added to or diminished, made weak or increased in strength, debased or purified. [After death] it (Kama) informs the astral body, which then becomes a mere shell; for when a man dies his astral body and principle of passion and desire leave the physical in company and coalesce, It is then that the ter= m Kamarupa may be applied, as Kamarupa is really made of astral body and Kama in conjunction, and this joining of the two makes a shape or form which though ordinarily invisible is material and may be brought into visibility. Although it is empty of mind and conscience, it has powers of its own that can be exercised whenever the conditions permit. These conditions are furnished by the medium of the spiritualists, and in every seance room the astral shells of deceased persons are always present to delude the sitters... For the astral spook--or Kamarupa--is but the mass of the desire= s and passions abandoned by the real person who has fled to "heaven and has n= o concern with the people left behind, least of all with seances and mediums. Hence, being devoid of the nobler soul, these desires and passions work onl= y on the very lowest part of the medium's nature and stir up no good elements= , but always the lower leanings of the being... The Kamarupa spook is the enemy of our civilization, which permits us to execute men for crimes committed and thus throws out into the ether the mas= s of passion and desire free from the weight of the body and liable at any moment to be attracted to any sensitive person. Being thus attracted, the deplorable images of crimes committed and also the picture of the execution and all the accompanying curses and wishes for revenge are implanted in living persons, who, not seeing the evil, are unable to throw it off. Thus crimes and new ideas of crimes are willfully propagated every day by those countries where capital punishment prevails." OCEAN 47-48 DANGER OF EXERCISING PSYCHIC POWERS "To attempt to acquire the use of the psychic powers for mere curiosity or for selfish ends is also dangerous for the same reasons as in the case of mediumship. As the...present day is selfish to the last degree and built o= n the personal element, the rules for these powers in the right way have not been given out, but the Masters of Wisdom have said that philosophy and ethics must first be learned and practiced before any development of the other department [psychism] is indulged in... Equally improper is the manner of the scientific schools which...indulge in experiments in hypnotism in which the subjects are injured for life...=20 "The Lodge of the Masters does not care for Science unless it aims to bette= r man's state morally as well as physically, and no aid will be given to Science until she looks at man and life from the moral and spiritual side. For this reason, those who know all about the psychical world, its denizens and laws, are proceeding with a reform in morals and philosophy before any great attention will be accorded to the strange and seductive phenomena possible for the inner powers of man." OCEAN 152 =09 WHAT ARE THE "MORAL STATES ?" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Some Notes derived from studying HPB: =09=09 Metaphysics is the "mother-plant" of psychology. It is a science of first principles. The Esoteric Philosophy recognizes in the ultimate analysis that there is only One Reality. This lies behind the illusions (Maya) of our Universe of forms. It is called variously Sat or Para-Brahm, the "Great Unknown." There is a continual circuit of manifestation followed by rest (pralaya, or non-manifestation - a supra-physical, "spiritual" state). This compares with our cycle of sleeping and waking. The duality, in manifestation of Spirit and Matter is a fact. These emerge from the One Reality, and are found in ancient philosophy designated as the Word (Logos)--Spirit; and, Matter (Mula-prakriti) --Root Matter. They equilibrate each other constantly. The great Law of cause and effect, measured, regular, constant and consistent, ever merciful and totally just runs continuously through all periods. It has been called variously: the One Life, Karma, the "Great Breath." It works in and on everyone impartially. One of the chief differences between antique psychological philosophical systems and the modern is that in antiquity, the moral states were classified. States of Consciousness and Perception were held to be the result of those moral conditions. Morality is defined as those acts, thoughts and feeling which harmonize wit= h the Great Law of the Evolutionary progress of the Universe. Of necessity this is universal in scope, considers the value and necessity of every creature, every particle of substance. Nothing is excluded or held to be unrelated to its all-encompassing purview. Immorality is held to be anything adverse, by definition it is limited, selfish, acquisitive defensive of territory and possessions. Eastern Psychology recognizes in Man's conscious constitution several distinct and active principles: 1. The Emotions: feelings, desires, needs and wants, all centered around the personality the "I"-self in waking consciousness. It i= s very "territorial." These are seen to come and go and change constantly. It rarely considers consequences, is rash and wayward. 2. The Mind: thoughts, imagination, fancy, ability to study and analyze, memory, extrapolation, etc... This is called the True Self an= d the Individual. This sense of Individuality persists throughout the life i= n spite of many changes. It is "superior" to the "emotional, the selfish self, as it can control and direct it. It tends to be deliberate and considers results that may accrue to actions. 3. In waking consciousness these two are combined to form two operative points of dialog: There is an alliance between one aspect of the mind and the emotions. This makes up the "Lower Mind" - selfish, territorial, vicious, amatory, etc... The second unit is that aspect of th= e mind which coalesces with experience, with the memory of results and considers those which are beneficial to itself or dangerous in potential. It has been called "The Higher Mind." One of its faculties is to access to the common and universal plane of Mentality in the Universe where results o= f all past events and actions are recorded. ["Actions" include: desires, thoughts, and physical acts.] 4. Mind (Soul) is that which persists. In Eastern psychology it is held that it constitutes an unbreakable thread of consciousness between the life experiences of this personality and that of previous personalities ensouled by it through the process of reincarnation. 5. Mind is allied, in it higher, nobler aspect, to a principle of Universal Wisdom--the source of Law, Karma, Justice and Progress. It ha= s been named Wisdom, Buddhi. This the Higher Mind is called Buddhi-Manas to use terms that philosophers employ in Sanskrit. The "Lower Mind" is denote= d Kama-Manas, or the desire-mind. This last informs the personality and give= s it its awareness. It transfers constantly its impressions to the Higher Mind, and at the death of the body it makes a final transfer to the Higher Mind. This becomes the conveyor of the life of the Entity through a review and resting period to its eventual return on Earth in a new body. 6. Intuition and the "Voice of Conscience" are evidence of the communications between the Higher and the Lower Minds during life. The Higher, having access to past experience in full, warns the lower, when necessary at the time when it makes decisions or choices. These may or may not be heeded by the embodied Lower Mind. Consequences ensue and this is called "Karma," the ledger balance of all our activities, visible and invisible, physical or immaterial. 7. We are part of a vast host of intelligences. Men-minds like ourselves, and levels of consciousness represented by the animals, plants, minerals and other elements of the Universe. It is also reasonable to consider that there are our predecessors on the Ladder of Evolution. Those once men like ourselves who have progressed to a wiser and wider view of things. Like our teachers, instructors and professors they remain as assistants, whose advise is available to those of us who care to seek for and ask for it. 8. The subject of the "will." or the executive power which transfers an "idea" into an action is also to be considered. It is volitional, directive, serves as a bridge between the mind and the hands that work in the world of physical matter. It is "colorless." It can be employed by either the Lower or the Higher Mind. 9. The Buddha was the greatest of psychologists. He showed the inquirer how to understand Suffering as part of a pair. Happiness was the alternative. There is something in Man which sees both sides. This sensitivity evokes compassion. To refrain from hurting others while gently but firmly insisting on equity is the study of the ages. The personal application leads to Adeptship through true non-violence. 10. The Higher Self is common to all it being Atma, and universal. As a drop resides in the Ocean, so the Higher Self of each individual resides in the Universal Spirit. It is at once a part of THAT, and yet is individualized. We therefore share in all the sufferings and th= e pleasures of others. We are their brothers and sisters in Spirit. 11. Each individual has to come to the realization that he alone will save or damn himself.=20=20 12. Each one is morally obliged to assist all others when able to do so. The motive for such assistance has to be disinterested, to be true. STATEMENTS AND WARNINGS BY HPB "Psychism, with all its allurements and all its dangers, is necessarily developing among you, and you might beware lest the Psychic outruns the Manasic and Spiritual development. Psychic capacities held perfectly under control, checked and directed by the manasic principle, are valuable aids i= n development. But these capacities running riot controlling instead of controlled, using instead of being used, lead the Student into the most dangerous delusions and the certainty of moral destruction. Watch therefor= e carefully this development, inevitable in your race and evolution-period so that it may finally work for good and not for evil..." HPB -- 5 Messages, p. 29 ------------------------------------------ Best wishes, Dallas From dharao4@yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 04 09:28:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dharao4@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59970 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 17:28:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 17:28:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web86907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.13.59) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 17:28:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 19593 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Dec 2004 17:28:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20041204172830.19591.qmail@web86907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [217.207.133.137] by web86907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 17:28:30 GMT Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 17:28:30 +0000 (GMT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 217.12.13.59 From: robert searle Subject: Psychic Protection, and Visionary Experiences. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=174372458 X-Yahoo-Profile: dharao4 Dear All, In the Radhasoami Faith the Five Holy Names, or the one Holy Name is used not only to help withdraw conciousness to the Third Eye but also acts as a means of protection against negative forces. Here, we are really talking about a special mantra which is charged by the RS Sant Satguru. Such a method is used not just in Indian traditions but in many others such as Sufism, and Buddhism. A book entitled India of Yogis by the Spainish psychiatrist Dr. Alfonso Caycedo looks into the subject of inner visions of yogis. It was found that they were not highly regarded but were seen as merely milestones on the way to "God-Realization". Indeed, they were sometimes interpreted as just hallucinations...and hence, of no importance at all. In Shabd Yoga the attitude is largely the same. As the Satsangi ascends into the higher planes during meditation he must not get lost in the fantastic scenery of his experience. Instead, he must concentrate on the Radiant Form of his Master, or Sant Satguru. This is all important, or else ofcourse he, or she may go astray. I remember once a Satsangi telling me that he saw someone faint due he claimed to possession. However, it transpired that such experiences happened when the inner Light suddenly became too dazzling. This caused the recepient usually a woman to faint at times of high emotion. ___________________________________________________________ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k From ringding777@t-online.de Sat Dec 04 11:21:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55661 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 19:21:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 19:21:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout08.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.20) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 19:21:40 -0000 Received: from fwd08.aul.t-online.de by mailout08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CafTP-0007wH-02; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:21:39 +0100 Received: from captainfb78633 (JbvpFeZ18e4vaN6NBzreUERXX7RmGwHWqwFmAu8DD9Zlvp+g249t8S@[217.81.97.58]) by fwd08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CafTJ-1ZYmoa0; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 20:21:33 +0100 Message-ID: <04dd01c4da36$ce1924e0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: <20041010100843.65683.qmail@web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 20:23:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: JbvpFeZ18e4vaN6NBzreUERXX7RmGwHWqwFmAu8DD9Zlvp+g249t8S X-TOI-MSGID: 5f7b3fcb-136a-4ac0-bdfb-927ebf5e7659 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.20 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer > I think that you are talking about some letters that > exists in Adyar > related to Judge and Besant. > In her last visit to Argentina (April 2004), Radha > Burnier told me > that in Adyar exist a pile of letters about "Judge's > case" that > shows the righteous of Besant's attitude. > "Unfortunately -said me > Radha- there are a lot of theosophical work to do > and there are no > time for compile and edit this material. But someone > will must do it > in some time". As a theosophist I never believe anything what the hypocrites from Adyar claim. If there is no one who is interested in publishing the warning letters of Judge to Besant, why do they give no one else the opportunity to it? Perhaps Mrs Burnier would have more time to do theosophical work and publish the Judge letters (in the 1960'ies when Boris de Zirkoff viewed them, but was not allowed to publish them, the ink was already faded away) if she would not stick with Krishnamurti poppycock. And why did Joy Mills say that the Adyar bonzes will the glad when the letters get rot. > Theosophical Society of Adyar works in order to > promote a spiritual > regeneration in humanity, and usually sees all this Really? I have witnessed several times quite the opposite. It seems one of us two must be liar. > Dear Frank, as I can see through your messages, you > have a strong > tendency to see "black forces" and "dark reasons" in > everything that > is not your own point of view. Much of your > accusations to Adyar > T.S. are fantasies of people that imagine and > speculate, but don't > actually know, in which sense works the Adyar T.S. Really? Please explain me why the Adyar TS at its 2002 Berlin Convention recommended evil doings to be able to be a warrior of light for the now beginning last war to free the planet forever? It was said - in the presence of Radha Burnier and Mary Anderson - without allowing anyone to speak free or to contradict - that only that people which are doing evils now will be chosen by the Masters. So I kindly ask you: Which Masters do you have at Adyar? Obviously they are not the Masters of HPB. Your satanic brood is even far more worse than the Vatican and SJ together. Lie, hypocrisy, deception, misreprentation, contumely and ACTIVE BLACK MAGIC against true theosophists is the Adyar brand. And that has not changed much for the last 120 years. The Masters have left in 1885 and they never returned to Adyar. Expect the Krishnamurti poppycock. > much bad, as being in control of dugpas. You can be > in disaccord > with some points of view, etc. But you will be able > to see in a > compassionate and non-fanatic form the other people. > Sorry if I'm harsh in my expression... but remember > that I don't > know very much English... > With warm regards > p Toleration is a good thing, so long as your crazy Adyar people do not persecute the little ones. Your tone is very much psychic or emotional, quite the opposite of what is regarded in theosophy as spiritual. There is no spiritual argument in your answer. Not one. And that is typical for your gang. Also typical is the projection behavior. It is you who in twisting and misrepresentation the dorctrines and terms is fanatical, not your victims. To speak out cleary: Everyone who is a party-liner of Adyar and tries to hypnotize the people, prevent them to think and paralyse them with emotionalism (saying it's spiritual) is in fact an insane person. I have witnessed that in dozens of cases with local theosophists here and so it was reported to me also from many others. I have absolutely NO reason to mistrust them what I have eyewitnessed for many years. The real existing Adyar organization is a very big danger for true spiritual progress. And it is exactly for that reason that the theosophical organizations were prohibited by Hitler. And because of your Adyar pseudo-theosophy also the pukka theosophists had to suffer. You know that because in the Adyar archives is your letter exchange with Hitler. This letters would also interest many, but Adyar does not publish them. Perhaps you have also not enough time for that?? Har, har. with no king regards, Frank From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Dec 04 12:01:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21254 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 20:01:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 20:01:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 20:01:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2004 20:00:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2004 20:00:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:00:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3141 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: "....seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions." THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell "....seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions." THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE Extracts ----------------------------------------------------- Three Halls, O weary pilgrim, lead to the end of toils. Three Halls, O conqueror of Mara, will bring thee through three states into the fourth and thence into the seven worlds, the worlds of Rest Eternal. If thou would'st learn their names, then hearken, and remember. The name of the first Hall is IGNORANCE -- Avidya. It is the Hall in which thou saw'st the light, in which thou livest and shalt die. If thou would'st cross the first Hall safely, let not thy mind mistake the fires of lust that burn therein for the Sunlight of life. The WISE ONES tarry not in pleasure-grounds of senses. This earth, O ignorant Disciple, is but the dismal entrance leading to the twilight that precedes the valley of true light -- that light which no wind can extinguish, that light which burns without a wick or fuel. Shun ignorance, and likewise shun illusion. Avert thy face from world deceptions; mistrust thy senses, they are false. But within thy body - - the shrine of thy sensations -- seek in the Impersonal for the "eternal man"; and having sought him out, look inward: thou art Buddha. Thy shadows live and vanish; that which in thee shall live for ever, that which in thee knows, for it is knowledge, is not of fleeing life: it is the man that was, that is, and will be, for whom the hour shall never strike. The name of Hall the second is the Hall of Learning. In it thy Soul will find the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled. If thou would'st cross the second safely, stop not the fragrance of its stupefying blossoms to inhale. If freed thou would'st be from the Karmic chains, seek not for thy Guru in those Mayavic regions. The WISE ONES heed not the sweet-tongued voices of illusion. And having learnt thine own Agnyana, flee from the Hall of Learning. This Hall is dangerous in its perfidious beauty, is needed but for thy probation. Beware, Lanoo, lest dazzled by illusive radiance thy Soul should linger and be caught in its deceptive light. This light shines from the jewel of the Great Ensnarer, (Mara). The senses it bewitches, blinds the mind, and leaves the unwary an abandoned wreck. The name of the third Hall is Wisdom, beyond which stretch the shoreless waters of AKSHARA, the indestructible Fount of Omniscience. Seek for him who is to give thee birth, in the Hall of Wisdom, the Hall which lies beyond, wherein all shadows are unknown, and where the light of truth shines with unfading glory. That which is uncreate abides in thee, Disciple, as it abides in that Hall. If thou would'st reach it and blend the two, thou must divest thyself of thy dark garments of illusion. Stifle the voice of flesh, allow no image of the senses to get between its light and thine that thus the twain may blend in one. If through the Hall of Wisdom, thou would'st reach the Vale of Bliss, Disciple, close fast thy senses against the great dire heresy of separateness that weans thee from the rest. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Dec 04 12:19:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12791 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2004 20:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2004 20:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2004 20:19:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2004 20:19:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Dec 2004 20:19:41 -0000 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:19:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 413 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Hall of Magic Mirrors by Victor Endersby Online X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell I have just been informed by a correspondent that THE HALL OF MAGIC MIRRORS by Victor Endersby is now available online at: http://tinyurl.com/489h8 This book published in 1969 is a study of H.P. Blavatsky's life and work with a special look at the attacks against her including an analysis of the Hodgson Report. It brings back fond memories of 1969 when I first read this book. Daniel http://hpb.cc From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 05 06:20:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92298 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 14:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 14:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 14:20:46 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.170] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CaxFi-0008HZ-2O; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:20:44 -0500 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 06:19:40 -0800 Message-ID: <001001c4dad5$98f5a0a0$aad8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20041203213204.39898.qmail@web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d1c76beacad5ce3b084439a475b70352350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.216.170 Subject: RE: The Question of Power. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 5 2004 Dear Friends: May I interject some ideas? The motto adopted by the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is "THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH." Next: THEOSOPHY is not to be confused with the opinions held concerning the life and activities of those who are connected with or associated with THEOSOPHY the ancient philosophy. Theosophy is said to be as ancient as the Universe, and to be a record of the history of the reincarnation of Universes, as well as of man-bearing Worlds, such as ours. It records therefore the birth and "creation" of all Universes, galaxies, Solar Systems, worlds, human beings, etc.. and with equal skill, considers the importance of atoms, molecules and their smallest components. It views our universe and world as examples of fields of evolution rules by exact and sensitive laws that serve to protect and sustain all beings of whatever kind or degree, visible or invisible. It is for the "members" and the whole of humanity to APPLY.=20=20 Otherwise, the membership (through its many members) deals in hypocrisy, If one thinks of "power," then the only possible power of any value to a member, or to anyone alive, is the power to control their lower selfish self. [Kama]. It is the power of honesty in all affairs that transforms al= l vices into VIRTUES. It is also a DUTY of "members" to diffuse a knowledge of what THEOSOPHY is to all others. This is a serious matter. The basis for this is the following.=20=20 HPB makes it plain in all her writings. 1 The UNIVERSE is one WHOLE. 2 We as Minds and Immortal Beings are an indissoluble and essential part of it.=20 3 The rules and Laws of life are the same for all. They cannot be broken, bent or subverted. No "Personal God" exists that has the power to d= o that.=20 4 The Universe, as "Nature," has established (since billions of years) all the necessary laws and rules for co-existence. All beings of whatever diversity or kind have lawful and well established relations with all the rest. This has always been in existence, even if we have just become aware of it, and of the responsibilities that are now ours, because of this knowledge.=20=20 5 "Science" and scientists are continually finding evidence of this fact: that the UNIVERSE has established these rules, and has administered them honestly and fairly for all. In all cases, science continues to prove and demonstrate this everywhere. Mankind is included in this orderliness.=20 6 The "Laws Of Life" in the Universe, that science discovers, are based on the immortality, and continuity through eternity, of basic atomic and molecular energies. Atoms are not physical but trans-physical centers of force. We are just beginning to discover the nature of those individual basic powers, and their cooperative nature.=20 7 The Soul / Spirit in Man is also immortal. The paradox of an immortal entity (Individuality -- Higher Mind) living many lives in a transitory physical body (personality -- Lower Mind) is the subject of Theosophical and Universal psychology. Religions (as established organizations) have deliberately obscured this fact.=20 8 The laws of communal living (called ethics and morals) are also, at base, an expression of the eternal and immutable laws of justice, honesty, and brotherhood. 9 All Religions and Sciences are an expression of immutable and eternal truths -- explained in various ways to many communities -- but on careful examination and comparison, they will be seen to contain identical truths about the whole of Life and the purpose of the Universe.=20 10 The goal of Universal evolution is to achieve for every one of its multitude of units, a perfection of knowledge embracing all aspects of existence. It has no favorites, but all achieve levels of perfection according to the efforts they exert. An expression of this fact is: "An atom becomes a molecule, a molecule a stone, a stone becomes a plant, a plant an animal, an animal a Man, and Man a GOD -- when has anyone lost an power by such alterations?"=20 In short any "power" individually attained, is to be kept unused until others need it. It may not be employed selfishly for any personal advantage= . It ought to be clear that no "power" is entrusted to any individuals, eithe= r in or out of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, until they have proved to Nature tha= t they are "harmless" to others in all circumstances. THEOSOPHY as a philosophy and science, is a universal statement of facts. It is for everyone in the world and universe. In our present era. its primary exponents: The Masters, HPB and W. Q. Judge make this clear in all they wrote. Their writings are available for all to study. One might repeat:=20=20 THEOSOPHY, is not a creed or dogma invented by theologians, by fallible men= , but ANCIENT and UNIVERSAL KNOWLEDGE. It is the cumulative testimony of an innumerable, endless series of Seers. [S D I 272-3] It is not a religion, not a creed nor does it have dogmas. It is not built on anything but that ancient foundation upon which every one of the religions of the world have been based. Concerning the MASTERS, the Knowers of the Wisdom of the Universe, We find = H P B wrote:=20=20 "Their spiritual visions, real explorations by, and through, physical and spiritual senses untrammeled by blind flesh, were systematically checked an= d compared one with the other, and their nature sifted. All that was not corroborated by unanimous and collective experience was rejected, while tha= t only was recorded as established truth which, in various ages, under different climes, and throughout an untold series of incessant observations= , was found to agree and receive constantly further corroboration." [Key, p. 85] "Let no man set up a popery instead of Theosophy, as this would be suicidal and has ever ended most fatally" has been the plea of H.P.B. to students. ("Five Messages to American Theosophists" from H. P. Blavatsky. First Message).=20 =20 Students are invited to seek for and make their own in-depth study for of all the keys H.P.B. gives out in her books: ISIS UNVEILED, SECRET DOCTRINE= , and other of her numerous articles pertaining to the roots of Christianity, the pagan origins of Church rituals and dogmas. Of those Keys, we might mention: the Anthropological, Mystical, Historical, Astrological, Astronomical, Metaphysical, Cosmogonical, Psychical, Physiological, Numerical, Ethnological Keys she has furnished in respect to both Old and New Testaments, especially, the Book of Genesis, the Gospels and the Revelations, and some Kabalistic texts. Best wishes. Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: robert searle=20 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:32 PM To:=20 Subject: The Question of Power. Dear All, The problem of power and who takes it is not something limited to the errings of certain careerist Theosophists but can also be found in gurudom....and indeed, in many other walks of life.=20 CUT From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 05 10:10:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49188 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 18:10:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 18:10:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.32) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 18:10:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2004 18:10:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.124] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2004 18:10:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:09:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 190 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.32 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Controversies Surrounding Mme. Blavatsky & Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Controversies Surrounding Madame Blavatsky's Work & the Teachings of Theosophy See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hpbcontro.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc From rajputks@hotmail.com Sun Dec 05 12:39:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 65110 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 20:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 20:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 20:39:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2004 20:36:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.177] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Dec 2004 20:36:56 -0000 X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56685 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.87) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 5 Dec 2004 09:30:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.9 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:29:17 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:59:17 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2004 17:30:01.0230 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CA40AE0:01C4DAF0] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.87 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.9] Subject: My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 05 Dec 2004 20:36:35 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.28 Dear Sir, I am a professor of Physics. I have been studying theosophy since school days. I have also been a member of Theosophical Lodge at Tikamgarhabout 32 years back. In Physics, I have worked in Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and Plasma Physics. In Theosophy, I have worked in rthe projection of Astral Body. I have been in interested in Yoga and Meditation as well. I have studied almost all the four vedas, Geeta, Valmiki Ramayan, Shri MadBhagwat etc. I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group. Sincerely yours ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Microsoft’s festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous holiday! From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 05 12:47:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7327 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 20:47:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 20:47:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 20:47:53 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.75] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cb3IN-0007lM-TA for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:47:52 +0000 Message-ID: <41B3746F.2090104@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 15:49:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <1e4.2f921603.2ee1a51b@cs.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on omega.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South America and ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn samblo@cs.com wrote, in part: > Mauri, > Thanks for your comments. In the UFO case years ago Viracocha was > referred to as "Ticci Viracocha" having the same tradition you relate from > Graham Handcock's book. The Nasca Culture was recent comparatively, A.D., Maria > Reich spent most of her life in situ documenting the Nasca lines and figures > which are of a distinctly different type than the more recent Crop Circles. Partly, the following appeared on BN Study in response to issues raised by this general topic. I've been under the impression that humans and elementals might, under certain circumstances, enter into certain co-operative efforts, but that elementals, on their own, might not be capable of producing typical crop circles, eg. As for "more important things to do" re Masters, I suspect that they would tend to have their hands tied, in effect, by karma, so that (possibly ...) their efforts to help might be somewhat limited to various kinds of influences that would not be counter to karmic allowances. Of course I don't know whether from the perspective of Masters (per linages such as KH and M, eg ...) the production of typical crop circles for the purpose of affecting humankind, in whatever sense, would be within karmic allowances (ie, whether such circles are interpreted/reacted-to subliminally or otherwise). I wonder if the Nazca lines might be much older than suggested by the orthodox view. At any rate, the Nazca plain certainly seems ideal for those kinds of lines and pictures if one wanted them to last for a very long time, seems to me. Of course the Nazca lines are different than today's crop circles, but so are people today generally different, (aren't they ...), so taking into account (possible considerations re karma and applicablility ...) in today's terms ... Anyway, the way I tend to see it, the numerous, complex, very large crop circles that are appearing year after year in numerous countries might, eventually, make some sort of dent in the general trend (especially in the States ...) towards dumbing down and corporatizing. I mean, couldn't one suspect that, sooner or later, the dumbed down corporate zombies (or person's influenced by and joining the general trend towards dumbing down and corporatization ...) might tend to run out of creative and dumbed-down/corporatized explanations for the crop circles (wouldn't one expect ...)---ie, when/if they ever run out of excuses to ignore them in the first place. Speculatively, Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 05 15:43:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33730 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2004 23:43:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Dec 2004 23:43:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2004 23:43:06 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.63] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cb61x-0000Lu-2Z for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:43:05 +0000 Message-ID: <41B39D86.8000101@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:45:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on phi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.4 required=9.0 tests=DEAR_SOMETHING, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.122 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: > > Dear Sir, > I am a professor of Physics. I have been studying theosophy since school > days. I have also been a member of Theosophical Lodge at Tikamgarhabout 32 > years back. In Physics, I have worked in Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and > Plasma Physics. In Theosophy, I have worked in rthe projection of Astral > Body. I have been in interested in Yoga and Meditation as well. I have > studied almost all the four vedas, Geeta, Valmiki Ramayan, Shri MadBhagwat > etc. I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group. > Sincerely yours > > ...Kamal-S-Rajput... Welcome. Looking forward to your input. Not that I'm "Sir," exactly, but ... If that post was intended for a particular "Sir," my apologies for jumping in. ^:-/ Mauri PS that's my symbol for a confused and speculative guy who thought he might've had something important enough to say but wound up scratching his head. But, not to worry, Kamal-S-Rajput, lots of people on this are (or might be generally considered to be, even by themselves, maybe ...) far less confused and speculative than myself. ^:-) From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 05 16:11:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81357 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 00:11:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 00:11:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 00:11:40 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.101]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 21846727 for ; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:10:26 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041205181019.04559280@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:12:15 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In this maillist everyone interested in theosophy is welcome. We all would be looking for your participating in various issues discussed here. mkr At 10:59 PM 12/05/04 +0530, Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: > I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group. >Sincerely yours > >...Kamal-S-Rajput... ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.799 / Virus Database: 543 - Release Date: 11/19/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 05 17:24:27 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29795 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:24:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:24:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:24:26 -0000 Received: from [209.179.152.82] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cb7bs-0006y6-RX; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:24:24 -0500 To: "'Koshek S.'" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:24:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4db32$4d7d46c0$5298b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20041201085924.63958.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f26fe88316c7735a1ecb94bd0903037c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.152.82 Subject: RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 5 2004 =93THEOSOPHIST IS WHO THEOSOPHY DOES.=94 "THEOSOPHY IS ALTRUISM IN THOUGHT AND DEED." "THE SOLE AUTHORITY FOR MAN IS HIS OWN ATMA -- THE HIGHER SELF." Dear Friends: This is a summary of what HPB wrote in: WHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS? -- by H. P. Blavatsky Are they what they claim to be--students of natural law, of ancient and modern philosophy, and even of exact science? Are they Deists, Atheists, Socialists, Materialists, or Idealists; or are they but a schism of modern Spiritualism,--mere visionaries? Are they entitled to any consideration, as capable of discussing philosophy and promoting real science; or should they be treated with the compassionate toleration which one gives to "harmless enthusiasts"?=20 Men slander only those whom they hate--or fear.=20 Holding this country [India], as we do, for the fruitful hot-bed whence proceeded all subsequent philosophical systems, to this source of all psychology and philosophy=20 The line of philosophical heredity, from Kapila through Epicurus to James Mill; from Patanjali through Plotinus to Jacob Boehme, can be traced like the course of a river through a landscape.=20 T S OBJECTS =85one of our objects, =91=92=92[is] to revive the work of Ammonius Saccas,= and make various nations remember that they are the children "of one mother." [Eclectic Theosophy of the 3rd Century in Alexandria, Egypt. see =93Key t= o Theosophy,=94 p. 3-5, 39] With how much, then, of this nature-searching, God-seeking science of the ancient Aryan and Greek mystics, and of the powers of modern spiritual mediumship, does the Society agree? Our answer is: WITH IT ALL.=20 BELIEFS ? But if asked what it believes in, the reply will be: "AS A BODY--NOTHING."= =20 The Society, as a body, has no creed, as creeds are but the shells around spiritual knowledge; and Theosophy in its fruition is spiritual knowledge itself--the very essence of philosophical and theistic enquiry.=20 The religion of the Society is an algebraical equation, in which so long as the sign =3D of equality is not omitted, each member is allowed to substitu= te quantities of his own, which better accord with climatic and other exigencies of his native land, with the idiosyncrasies of his people, or even with his own.=20 Having no accepted creed, our Society is very ready to give and take, to learn and teach, by practical experimentation, as opposed to mere passive and credulous acceptance of enforced dogma.=20 It is willing to accept every result claimed by any of the foregoing school= s or systems, that can be logically and experimentally demonstrated. Conversely, it can take nothing on mere faith, no matter by whom the demand may be made.=20 THEOSOPHISTS ARE :=20 The Society's members represent the most varied nationalities and races, an= d were born and educated in the most dissimilar creeds and social conditions. Some of them believe in one thing, others in another. Some incline towards the ancient magic, or secret wisdom that was taught in the sanctuaries, which was the very opposite of supernaturalism or diabolism; others in modern spiritualism, or intercourse with the spirits of the dead; still others in mesmerism or animal magnetism, or only an occult dynamic force in nature. A certain number have scarcely yet acquired any definite belief, bu= t are in a state of attentive expectancy; and there are even those who call themselves materialists, in a certain sense.=20 Of atheists and bigoted sectarians of any religion, there are none in the Society; for the very fact of a man's joining it proves that he is in searc= h of the final truth as to the ultimate essence of things.=20 ATHEISM If there be such a thing as a speculative atheist, which philosophers may deny, he would have to reject both cause and effect, whether in this world of matter, or in that of spirit=85But even they are not atheist in the speculative sense, whether they identify the material forces of the univers= e with the functions with which the theists endow their God, or otherwise; fo= r once that they cannot free themselves from the conception of the abstract ideal of power, cause, necessity, and effect, they can be considered as atheists only in respect to a Personal God, and not to the Universal Soul o= f the Pantheist.=20 On the other hand the bigoted sectarian, fenced in, as he is, with a creed upon every paling of which is written the warning "No Thoroughfare," can neither come out of his enclosure to join the Theosophical Society, nor, if he could, has it room for one whose very religion forbids examination.=20 THE VERY ROOT IDEA OF THE SOCIETY IS FREE AND FEARLESS INVESTIGATION.=20 As a body, the Theosophical Society holds that all original thinkers and investigators of the hidden side of nature whether materialists--those who find in matter "the promise and potency of all terrestrial life," or spiritualists--that is, those who discover in spirit the source of all energy and of matter as well, were and are, properly, Theosophists.=20 For to be one, one need not necessarily recognize the existence of any special God or a deity.=20 One need but worship the spirit of living nature, and try to identify oneself with it. To revere that Presence, the invisible Cause, which is yet ever manifesting itself in its incessant results; the intangible, omnipotent, and omnipresent Proteus: indivisible in its Essence, and eludin= g form, yet appearing under all and every form; who is here and there, and everywhere and nowhere; is ALL, and NOTHING; ubiquitous yet one; the Essenc= e filling, binding, bounding, containing everything, contained in all. It will, we think, be seen now, that whether classed as Theists, Pantheists or Atheists, such men are near kinsmen to the rest. Be what he may,=20 =85once that a student abandons the old and trodden highway of routine, and enters upon the solitary path of independent thought--Godward--he is a Theosophist; an original thinker, a seeker after the eternal truth with "an inspiration of his own" to solve the universal problems.=20 With every man that is earnestly searching in his own way after a knowledge of the Divine Principle, of man's relations to it, and nature's manifestations of it, Theosophy is allied.=20 It is likewise the ally of honest science, as distinguished from much that passes for exact, physical science, so long as the latter does not poach on the domains of psychology and metaphysics.=20 And it is also the ally of every honest religion--to wit, a religion willin= g to be judged by the same tests as it applies to the others.=20 Those books, which contain the most self-evident truth, are to it inspired (not revealed). But all books it regards, on account of the human element contained in them, as inferior to the Book of Nature; to read which and comprehend it correctly, the innate powers of the soul must be highly developed. Ideal laws can be perceived by the intuitive faculty alone; they are beyond the domain of argument and dialectics, and no one can understand or rightly appreciate them through the explanations of another mind, even though this mind be claiming a direct revelation.=20 ORIENTALISM And it is also due to the unremitting labors of such Orientalists as Sir W. Jones, Max M=FCller, Burnouf, Colebrooke, Haug, St. Hilaire, and so many others, that the Society, as a body, feels equal respect and veneration for Vedic, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, and other old religions of the world; and, a like brotherly feeling toward its Hindu, Sinhalese, Parsi, Jain, Hebrew, an= d Christian members as individual students of "self," of nature, and of the divine in nature.=20 T S CONSTITUTION Born in the United States of America, the Society was constituted on the model of its Mother Land. The latter, omitting the name of God from its constitution lest it should afford a pretext one day to make a state religion, gives absolute equality to all religions in its laws... The Society, modelled upon this constitution, may fairly be termed a "Republic of Conscience."=20 MEMBERS OF THE T S We have now, we think, made clear why our members, as individuals, are free to stay outside or inside any creed they please, provided they do not pretend that none but themselves shall enjoy the privilege of conscience, and try to force their opinions upon the others.=20 In this respect the Rules of the Society are very strict:=20 It tries to act upon the wisdom of the old Buddhistic axiom, "Honour thine own faith, and do not slander that of others"; echoed back in our present century, in the "Declaration of Principles" of the Brahmo Samaj, which so nobly states that: "no sect shall be vilified, ridiculed, or hated."=20 RULE: It is not lawful for any officer of the Parent Society to express, by word or act, any hostility to, or preference for, any one section (sectarian division, or group within the Society) more than another= . All must be regarded and treated as equally the objects of the Society's solicitude and exertions. All have an equal right to have the essential features of their religious belief laid before the tribunal of an impartial world.=20 In their individual capacity, members may, when attacked, occasionally brea= k this Rule, but, nevertheless, as officers they are restrained, and the Rule is strictly enforced during the meetings. FOR, ABOVE ALL HUMAN SECTS STANDS THEOSOPHY IN ITS ABSTRACT SENSE; THEOSOPH= Y WHICH IS TOO WIDE FOR ANY OF THEM TO CONTAIN, BUT WHICH EASILY CONTAINS THEM.=20 =85we may state that [the T S], broader and far more universal in its views than any existing mere scientific Society, it has, plus science, its belief in every possibility, and determined will to penetrate into those unknown spiritual regions which exact science pretends that its votaries have no business to explore. UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD And, it has one quality more than any religion in that it makes no difference between Gentile, Jew, or Christian. It is in this spirit that th= e Society has been established upon the footing of a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD.=20 UNCONCERNED ABOUT POLITICS; HOSTILE TO THE INSANE DREAMS OF SOCIALISM AND OF COMMUNISM, WHICH IT ABHORS... THE SOCIETY CARES BUT LITTLE ABOUT THE OUTWARD HUMAN MANAGEMENT OF THE MATERIAL WORLD.=20 The whole of its aspirations are directed towards the occult truths of the visible and invisible worlds.=20 Whether the physical man be under the rule of an empire or a republic, concerns only the man of matter=85They have no sway over the inner man.=20 The true student has ever been a recluse, a man of silence and meditation. With the busy world his habits and tastes are so little in common that, while he is studying, his enemies and slanderers have undisturbed opportunities. But time cures all and lies are but ephemera. Truth alone is eternal.=20 One man's thought, infinitely various as are its manifestations, is not all-embracing.=20 Denied ubiquity, it must necessarily speculate but in one direction; and once transcending the boundaries of exact human knowledge, it has to err an= d wander, for the ramifications of the one Central and absolute Truth are infinite.=20 PHILOSOPHY But as all work for one and the same object, namely, the disenthralment of human thought, the elimination of superstitions, and the discovery of truth= , all are equally welcome.=20 The attainment of these objects, all agree, can best be secured by convincing the reason and warming the enthusiasm of the generation of fresh young minds=85And, as each--the great ones as well as small--have trodden t= he royal road to knowledge, we listen to all, and take both small and great into our fellowship. For no honest searcher comes back empty-handed, and even he who has enjoyed the least share of popular favor can lay at least his mite upon the one altar of Truth.=20 - HPB THEOSOPHIST, October, 1879=20 ----------------------------------------------------- =93THEOSOPHIST IS WHO THEOSOPHY DOES.=94 Key =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D AUTHORITY HPB AS AN "AUTHORITY" HPB does not claim "authority." She claims to be a "messenger." Specifically a messenger from the Great and Ancient Lodge of ADEPTS.=20=20 =20 In both ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE she disclaims any personal authority and gives the credit for the records she transmits to the real authors, the Mahatmas. Since she was well aware that the Theosophical theories and hypotheses woul= d be received with various degrees of incredulity from the academies, she was careful to make it clear that the information was in reality taken from the HISTORY that the Adepts and their disciples (chelas) had recorded down the ages. All that she requested was "equal time" and open consideration of what Theosophy had to offer. [ S D I 272 - 300 ] =20 This suggests that THEOSOPHY is not a new fangled system of collated ideas drawn from many sources -- in fact if it were even that, then the marvel is of HPB's mind. And, her capacity in drawing such a vast diversity together and showing how the many pieces hung together to form a seamless whole in the world of ideas and concepts. In many student's experience and wide reading, there is no one who has written such a comprehensive view of our world, the organization of the universe, on the spiritual, intellectual an= d psychological basis, and the part that Mankind plays in that. =20 The immortality of man's Spirit / Soul and the "God-spirit" (the Universal DEIFIC ESSENCE), being present in every "life-atom" of our LIVING UNIVERSE, are fundamental concepts.=20=20 Everything in Nature trends in its life-experience towards a higher degree of knowledge, wisdom, and perfection. Each life-cycle (incarnation) is lik= e a separate day at school and all are drawn together by the uniting thread o= f the immortal, and eternal spiritual Self which is at their core. In fact she shows how Theosophy traces the evolution of the "consciousness and intelligence" of the SPIRITUAL SOUL or Monad, through many forms -- from th= e atom to the human condition of independent free-will. As below, so above -= - said the wise Hermes. The Atom and the Universe correspond in structure, movement and objectives. They are integrated into one vast brotherhood of sensitive and inter-protective laws. The great and the "small" are mutuall= y dependent. "Spirit" cannot exist without "matter." Eternal Mind -- is the witness to all progress and life. This sweep and concept is one that can be traced in every one of the great religions and philosophies of the world. It is the record of their existence, of their common source, and of our participation, again and again, in those processes.=20=20 =20 Currently there is debate as to whether Theosophy has its roots in Buddhism= , Hinduism, Jainism, etc... And the place of Judaism, Kabala, Islam and Sufism is debated and considered in many ways. The question is always asked: 'Does knowledge, wisdom, and action have limits?" The Universe stands as evidence that they not only do, b out that the inter-relationship which permits diversified "life," is as ancient as Science and philosophy are able to trace. It is understood that scholars who are deeply familiar with those systems and their development can trace the evidence and the pathways of the development of similarities in observation and thought. However, HPB claim= s on behalf of the great and ancient Lodge of Adepts, that all those were derived from the "Sanatana Dharma," the "Perennial Philosophy." which is a record of Life's development and history which they have observed and left records of.. [ ISIS UNVEILED Vol. 2, pp 98-105. ] Modern "Theosophy" [the Wisdom of the Deity] claims to expose the outlines of this system and trace= s these facts everywhere in the world, and in the records of history on all continents. =20 As such Theosophy claims to be at the root and at the origin of all the great ancient religio-philosophical systems and provides a reason for their development as systems of practice leading to that kind of "initiation" which develops Wisdom in thought and mind as well as simultaneously the application of compassion and harmlessness in motive. Thus, Theosophy, is not exclusively religion, or philosophy but also includes science -- it is the power to investigate and record the workings of NATURE (Life as a Whole) in every stage and department of the world and our Universe. =20 The sweep of the ever-present immortal Life, through cycles of evolution lead at last to the "all-Knowingness" of the PERFECTED MAN. The designatio= n "Mahatma" (Great Soul) is one that includes all such self-developed men of superior knowledge and nature. It is held that every single "monad" in our world, and our Universe is destined to eventually enter the human stage of "freedom to think." From there on, as we, humans can, the power to develop further is placed squarely in our hands. The current test of humanity is? will it dare to assume the responsibility? Will it follow Hermes' other injunction: " Man, Know Thyself."=20 The SECRET DOCTRINE therefore speaks of those great Initiates, the "Fathers= " and the "Guardians" of wisdom, as the intelligent guides, and assistants that Nature employs to assist every fresh evolutionary effort, a "new Day" of intelligent development and progress -- open without exceptions to all beings. =20 If this is grasped the minute details and studies of specialists, while respected, as continuing proof of the inclusive nature of Theosophy, is als= o shown to be but the outer covering, to be but one way to approach to the interior mystery of man's own mind, and its almost infinite capacities. = =20 =20 If this infinite capacity of the human mind to grow and to understand the most simple, as well as the most complex subjects is grasped, the more learned will continually encourage the learners to investigate and prove fo= r themselves all avenues, however diverse, of information, tradition and lore= . And that is the always growing tip of the self-enlightening Mind. It alway= s widens out to that which is permanent and universal, when given a chance to emerge from ignorance, doubt, skepticism and lethargy. =20 Theosophy shows us that the real energizers are OURSELVES. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Koshek=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:59 AM To:=20 Subject: RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS =A0 I've been thinking about those questions for some time. Even though it is explained in Key to Theosophy, I still wonder "Who is a theosophist?" =A0 If you remember, HPB says that membership in the Theosophical Society does not make one a theosophist, and furthermore, most members are not.=20 She goes on to say that there are many theosophists, more than there are theosophists who are members in the Theosophical Society. (Section 2, page 20 in my addition.) Since I assume that a member of the Theosophical Society is most likely studying the Ancient Wisdom, perhaps study does not make one a theosophist?= =20 At the same time, a complete altruist may know nothing of the Ancient Wisdom, so the question arises - how can he be a true theosophist?=20 =A0 Does altruism naturally lead to theosophy? =A0 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D =A0 Another question that also comes to mind is that of AUTHORITY.=20 My own introspection leads me to the following conclusion. We first must listen before we can think. During the listening phase, when information is being passed on, doesn't the granter of that wisdom become an authority? This is why when we have faith in the Masters, as HPB says is pre-requisite to getting the teachings, our cup is empty so to speak and we listen withou= t criticism. Then there is the second phase, which is thinking about the teaching. This is when we should be critical of what we have received, and wrestle with the concepts and see if it fits reason. At this second phase, it's best you=A0do not consider authority, not even of the Master's themselves.=20 =A0 So my conclusion is, considering AUTHORITY depends on which phase of the process you are in, receiving or thinking. =A0 Perhaps this resolves the apparent contradiction in the words of HPB and th= e Masters on AUTHORITY and DOUBT. This is my guess. =A0 Koshek =A0 From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 05 17:24:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65308 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:24:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:24:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:24:46 -0000 Received: from [209.179.152.82] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cb7c8-0006y6-G9; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:24:39 -0500 To: Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:24:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000101c4db32$56b5a890$5298b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c52a5e36f05cc31923f5adff01506610350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.152.82 Subject: RE: [bn-study] THAT LOVE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 5 2004 Question: I am getting confused. I was told 'THAT' was the knowable 'NOT THAT' was the unknowable Does SAT refer to "THAT" (knowable) or to 'NOT THAT" (the unknowable)? Even the Masters do not understand 'NOT THAT' DTB Do you have an exact statement from Them on this?=09 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ABSOLUTE - UNIVERSAL SPIRIT ? HPB SAID: Fundamentally there is ONE BEING. [SAT or THAT] This Being has two aspects, positive and negative. [Hence the MONADS, in Sanskrit philosophy we have Sat and A-Sat.=20 The positive is Spirit, or CONSCIOUSNESS. The negative is SUBSTANCE, [and i= t is] the subject of consciousness.=20 This Being is the Absolute [THAT] in its primary manifestation. Being ABSOLUTE there is nothing outside it. It is All-Being. It is indivisible, else it would not be absolute.=20 If a portion could be separated, that remaining could not be absolute, because there would at once arise the question of COMPARISON between it and the separated part. Comparison is incompatible with any idea of absoluteness. Therefore it is clear that this fundamental One Existence, or Absolute Being must be the Reality in every form there is. ... (a) The FUNDAMENTAL UNITY OF ALL EXISTENCE. This unity is a thing altogether different from the common notion of unity -- as when we say that a nation or an army is united; or that this planet is united to that by lines of magnetic force or the like. The teaching is not that. It is that existence is ONE THING, not any collection of things linked together.=20 "Theosophy," she said, "is for those who can think, or for those who can drive themselves to think, not mental sluggards." H.P.B. has grown very mil= d of late. "Dumskulls!" used to be her name for the average student.=20 =20 4 Fundamental Ideas Given by HPB=20 (a)The Atom, the Man, the God (she says) are each separately, as well as al= l collectively, Absolute Being in their last analysis, that is their REAL INDIVIDUALITY.=20 It is this idea which must be held always in the background of the mind to form the basis for every conception that arises from study of the S.D. The moment one lets it go (and it is most easy to do so when engaged in any of the many intricate aspects of the Esoteric Philosophy) the idea of SEPARATION supervenes, and the study loses its value.=20=20=20 (b) The second idea to hold fast to is that THERE IS NO DEAD MATTER. Every last atom is alive. It cannot be otherwise since every atom is itself fundamentally Absolute Being.=20 Therefore there is no such thing as "spaces" of Ether, or Akasha, or call i= t what you like, in which "angels and elementals" disport themselves like trout in water. That's the common idea. The true idea shows every atom of substance no matter of what plane to be in itself a LIFE.=20 (c) The third basic idea to be held is that Man is the MICROCOSM.=20 As he is so, then all the Hierarchies of the Heavens exist within him. But in truth there is neither Macrocosm nor Microcosm but ONE EXISTENCE. Great and small are such only as viewed by a limited consciousness [which makes such distinctions].=20 (d) Fourth and last basic idea to be held is that expressed in the Great Hermetic Axiom.=20 "As is the Inner, so is the Outer; as is the Great so is the Small; as it i= s above, so it is below; there is but One Life and Law; and he that worketh i= t is ONE. Nothing is Inner, nothing is Outer; nothing is Great, nothing is Small; nothing is High, nothing is Low, in the Divine Economy. " It really sums up and synthesizes all the others.=20 No matter what one takes as study in the S.D. one must correlate it with those basic ideas." P. G . Bowen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D 2 Another view: Why not use the idea of UNIVERSAL SPIRIT for that which in religions has been designated "God?"=20=20 It is UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD {or LOVE} as a living fact. It has always been there and will continue to be there, and we will always be in and with IT. Its beginnings (and ours) are of the same duration, and that cannot be measured in terms of whet we call time, distance or motion. Call it a sublime IDEA. And its manifestations (including ourselves) are immortals, deathless, always the all-pervading, correlative MONADS. They fill the infinitudes of SPACE.=20 They are the Eternal Pilgrims -- our MINDS and our SPIRIT. Some of these concepts can appeal to us and we can then use them as avenues of thought to universalize our concept of IT, and those will cause us to see it first in ourselves as our dearest friend, and closest tutor, and then, if we reach out to the radiance in everything, we will sense it in a daisy, the Sun, our friends and family, in a grain of sand or a cloud, in roaring fire or tinkling brook - wherever we may project or stretch our minds-there LIFE IS. Than if we see "God" everywhere, who are we to change or destroy the natura= l system of either that Presence or its Manifestation?=20 Are we to assume with incomplete knowledge, the position of tyrants or oppressors ? If we think God is all-knowledge, then we can never be far from IT. It is the immortal HIGHER SELF [call it the MASTER] within each o= f us. Nor can we 'escape' from the consequences of our choices. There is an old hymn or verse that says this:=20=20 =20=20 "Never was I not, never was I not." Never will I cease to be. Never the Spirit was IT not, Beginnings and ends are but dreams." =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Can we emerge from Materialism? How often in framing our concepts do we rely on our education, or on the religious concepts we were taught as children? Almost all the time.=20=20 At what point do we begin to question some of the basics that were given to us as facts and truths, and which we later find to be only hypotheses?=20=20 What is an atom, what makes it move?=20=20 What is electricity, magnetism, light? What causes these, and why are they always described in terms of their effects and not in terms of their actual causes ? True, that for our present Western frame of mind (as well as often in the East) the term "God" is employed to designate a Power which we hope we may turn to our help by some method of worship or propitiation.=20=20 How can we imagine that this might be done solely for us, when we also know in our hearts that its 'love' includes our whole world with all its differences ?=20=20 How can we reasonably imagine a whole Galaxy, that is still mainly unexplored and unknown to us, treat us in a private, or in some special way ? How can we delve into our own psyche and mind - still largely, not in our control? What have we ? Blind alleys, or horizons of hope and encouragement to widen our range of understanding? Then comes the death of the physical body. Is all lost, or is there a continuance? What is the purpose of so complex, and rather vague, situation? What evidence can we assemble to prove or disprove the Theosophical propositions about the nature of the Universe and our role as humans in it? Perhaps it is well that there is no finality and that our curiosity is left with an open field in which to grow, to ever grow? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D HPB on STUDYING the S.D. (BOWEN) =09=09=09 Since most of the quotes that we will discuss come from SD, I hope the following extracts from Robert Bowen's notes of personal teachings given by H.P.B. to private pupils during the years 1888 to 1891 on how to study SD may be of some help. "At last we have managed to get H.P.B. to put us right on the matter of the study of the S.D. Let me get it down while it is all fresh in mind. Reading the S.D. page by page as one reads any other book (she says) will only end us in confusion. The first thing to do, even if it takes years, is to get some grasp of the "Three Fundamental Principles" given in the Proem. Follow that up by study of the Recapitulation -- the numbered items in the Summing Up to Vol. I. (Part 1.). Then take the Preliminary Notes (Vol. II.) and the Conclusion (Vol. II.)......=20 She talked a good deal about the "Fundamental Principle." She says: If one imagines that one is going to get a satisfactory picture of the constitutio= n of the Universe from the S.D. one will get only confusion from its study. I= t is not meant to give any such final verdict on existence, but to LEAD TOWARDS THE TRUTH. She repeated this latter expression many times.=20=20 It is worse than useless going to those whom we imagine to be advanced students (she said) and asking them to give us an "interpretation" of the S.D. They cannot do it. If they try, all they give are cut and dried exoteric renderings which do not remotely resemble the Truth. To accept suc= h interpretation means anchoring ourselves to fixed ideas, whereas Truth lies beyond any ideas we can formulate or express. Exoteric interpretations are all very well, and she does not condemn them s= o long as they are taken as pointers for beginners, and are not accepted by them as anything more. Many persons who are in, or who will in the future b= e in the T.S. are of course potentially incapable of any advance beyond the range of a common exoteric conception. But there are, and will be others, and for them she sets out the following and true way of approach to the S.D= . Come to the S.D. (she says) without any hope of getting the final Truth of existence from it, or with any idea other than seeing how far it may lead TOWARDS the Truth. See in study a means of exercising and developing the mind never touched by other studies. Observe the following rules:=20 1. No matter what one may study in the S.D. let the mind hold fast, as the basis of its ideation to the following ideas=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4. Why should Manifestation Occur ? Why does SPIRIT undergo the evolutionary process.=20=20 Basically it would seem so that: "IT should know Itself." This implies a vast all-encompassing love and understanding of the rights and privileges o= f all beings. They are all eternal MONADS. Each is at its own proper designated stage of progress. They are a band of brothers. Logic:=20=20 SPIRIT by itself is UNCONSCIOUS - UNIVERSAL - without contrast.=20=20 Evolutionary law (KARMA) provides periodically the contrast of MATTER in an evolutionary Manvantara such as we are now involved in. [ Karma: as the endless "pulsing" of unconscious Life, which is perceived by "the opened ey= e of the Dangma" (the perception of the WISE)--SECRET DOCTRINE I 27 Verse 8.] SPIRIT emanates aspects of itself - "Rays or Sparks" - which appear simultaneously with "MATTER" of a refined and "primordial type" [Mulaprakriti or Mahabuddhi].=20=20 Also, simultaneously arises the POWER TO PERCEIVE, or UNIVERSAL MIND-MAHAT. [ Primordial matter is also named "Mulaprakriti" and "Mahabuddhi." ] The "Rays" invested with "matter" or MAHA-BUDDHI (Wisdom derived from experience), pass as individual MONADS [Atma-Buddhi-Manas], through all the planes and spheres of manifestation and eventually find themselves as individual Men-Minds on this, the grossest, most material of the planes [like our Earth experience at present]. The SD describes this process starting SD Vol. I, p. 152. The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY covers this in brief in Chapters 2, 3, 4, and 14, 15, if a synopsis is desired. If one is asking for a FIRST CAUSE, [SD I 14-5 214 342 426] you will be disappointed because there is none of a "material" kind.=20 In terms of metaphysics, HPB hints in the SD that it is the CAUSELESS CAUSE= , [SD I 9-10 14-5 55 89 273 280 II 589 ] and it is indescribable in our material, physical terms and thoughts. What then remains for us to un-puzzle our minds? Only the fact that we are here. The fact that we are now, at this very moment, questioning is highly significant.=20=20 In THE SECRET DOCTRINE we are given one of the most comprehensive "keys" to the great seven-fold puzzle. This 7-fold mystery stretches between the pola= r opposites of Spirit and Matter, and employs the Mind which is mid-way between and independent of them, to note and record all their interactions in terms of time, space and motion. In effect we are told: "Man know thyself." [see S D I 157-8; II 596 ] Since we are also 7-fold, each one of our principles, when ultimately refined and brought under control opens the corresponding "lock" of great nature. Man is the "Microcosm" of the "Macrocosm" and contains in himself, in miniature, every power and force that the Universe has.=20 He has to understand these, where they come from and how they are used, but= , the power to employ the secret laws and powers of nature are not entrusted to him by the WISE who hold the final "secrets," until he has become completely HARMLESS to himself and to Nature around him.=20=20 This is Universal Love for all beings. The practice of "brotherhood" is the opening aspect of the discipline that leads to individual "success" and to ultimate Wisdom (or the practice of benevolence as a force that is employed only for the good of others). By the fact that in any one evolutionary period a mass of minds independently and cooperatively achieve the highest illumination into the nature of SPIRIT and the UNIVERSE, to that extent SPIRIT GETS TO KNOW ITSELF.=20=20 It becomes progressively SELF-CONSCIOUS.=20 Thus the human stage is an essential component of the evolutionary process and those Men-minds that become successful are entrusted with the guidance of various aspects of future evolutionary schemes and the assisting of stil= l more "minds" to become universally enlightened. Spirit may be said to get to "know itself" by the success of Minds who are wisely benevolent. As the process is continuous and eternal, evolution and progress towards spirituality (with the memory of every Egoic, individual experience in all departments of Nature stored in Akasa - the BUDDHI aspect of NATURE) the SPIRITUAL PERSON, that we are fundamentally, becomes ONE WITH THE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT. It does not, even then, loose its identity. But this merging does not annihilate or disintegrate the Individual SELF, for that continues as a conscious unit. One may say it chooses a vast an impersonal love, a compassion absolute, and then proceeds on a self-assumed mission of assistance, compassion and mercy described in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE in the last pages of the book (pp. 76-79 and the all-important footnotes there). We as humans are half-way through this vast process and work. HPB in her article ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA says: "I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine Parabrahm, man's spirit which not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or "skandhas" that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow "Buddhi" and the Seventh Principle into Devachan ("Swarga") after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the "Monad." [HPB Articles III, p. 265.] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 5. If the "ALL" is so grand and all knowing (omnipotent and omnipresent, etc...), then why does it need to form itself into a dense, fleshly creature like ourselves to evolve?=20 It seems to me that to do so would be "un-evolving" itself (if such a word exists). Now I know that someone here is going to say, "Well, by becoming human, the "All" can experience many things on this plane, thus, adding to Its bank of knowledge."=20=20 BUT, (I say),"Why??? If It is already all- knowing???" ----------------- What a grand question. In fact, the greatest philosophers of all history have asked over and over the question as to why "God" joined soul and body together - which is a variant of your question, isn't it? HPB has written that the mystery of the "solar logos" is the greatest mystery and the most precious in all of occultism. But if the UNIVERSE is the ONE ALL-INCLUSIVE SUN," [the Paramatma], then interiorly, we have each= , our own Individual Sun: the ATMA. We have to set it free -- and only true "love" can do that.=20 Love may be seen t be at the root of all virtues -- as ideals or as practice.=20 Apparently our solar system, and the planets therein, have experienced grea= t moral and spiritual failures in the vast past. It was not only a few millions of years back, in Atlantis that men turned to wickedness, sorcery and greed, black magic and so on, but in previous solar systems, resulting in great perverted, selfish and decaying karmic residual substances in the cosmos with human "prisoners" within them, comatose or in pain. Then along comes the living and loving example of an actual living Man, who acts as the "heart of the Sun," who, as Christ, and other Saviours did, mak= e the stupendous sacrifice of selfish life, to give the hope of a spiritual essential life, and the example and opportunity for humanity to see it can work its way back home to "Paradise" again. [see S D I 207-210 ] So if you look at the billions of billions of billions of suns and the equivalent numbers of humanities, both evolved and perfected and unevolved in the vast kosmic space we see each night in the skies, it is a universal process and not only in this, a small, single portion, our own solar system that mistakenly has objectivized its "God" and demanded that it incarnate through this, which we falsely assume is the only human kingdom.=20 Mankind is the stage and plane of all redemption, the Great Savior that resides in each of us has to be given a channel through our personalities, to awaken to his true ancient agenda.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D These are a few ideas to consider, Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:33 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] THAT Dear Friends I am getting confused. I was told 'THAT' was the knowable 'NOT THAT' was the unknowable Does SAT refer to "THAT" (knowable) or to 'NOT THAT" (the unknowable)? Even the Masters do not understand 'NOT THAT' CASS From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 05 17:31:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6240 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:31:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:31:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40908.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.205) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:31:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 20157 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Dec 2004 01:31:15 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=IO9baR9hnOHyM2rXuBR/19C+J5i7nwJNbrFMErJJ4SpkxLTVEHt4TyoGjdCCEJL0yorML8cW+hgghbnQvkHzYBJJ8oi73I7bAQcQZ7Hig+C+twRM6JVvXOS09x/374+GOHC9w8r/rhh3utJzffAMSqesmzL9hGcFwmSR7r5/i2I= ; Message-ID: <20041206013115.20155.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:31:15 PST Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:31:15 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.205 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Eastern Tradition Research Institute: Concerning H.P. Blavatsky's translations from the Book of Dzyan X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Long-time students of Theosophy as well as inquirers and new students will want to be aware of a new website titled: Eastern Tradition Research Institute founded by David and Nancy Reigle See: http://easterntradition.org/ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Sun Dec 05 17:35:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79653 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:35:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:35:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:35:27 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail27.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.167]) by smtpout01.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5HP26AJKMMWJ for (sender ); Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:34:20 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvUAesTOGDYwwflQPlPiil6A== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail27.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD5N755Y; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:33:22 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail27.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:33:09 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:33:09 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 11:5:3126661563 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was dedicated to accomplishing. In alignment with all great world teachers, masters, et. al. we are, at best struggling to demonstrate Unity and Oneness. Actually, contention is alive and well in the ts and spiritual circles. So, as far as we have come, we have much to go, in what I call vertical development. Horizontal development is easy, just more of the same, that is in our comfort zone. And, it is often spectacular exchanges of information and insight. Who, is willing to make the Everest climb to the place when we have NO CONTENTION for which brand name or generic model of theosophy that one espouses. HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL... NEW YEAR IS COMING, ay it be really new and better than every before Regina -- "W.Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: Dec 5 2004 “THEOSOPHIST IS WHO THEOSOPHY DOES.” "THEOSOPHY IS ALTRUISM IN THOUGHT AND DEED." "THE SOLE AUTHORITY FOR MAN IS HIS OWN ATMA -- THE HIGHER SELF." Dear Friends: This is a summary of what HPB wrote in: WHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS? -- by H. P. Blavatsky Are they what they claim to be--students of natural law, of ancient and modern philosophy, and even of exact science? Are they Deists, Atheists, Socialists, Materialists, or Idealists; or are they but a schism of modern Spiritualism,--mere visionaries? Are they entitled to any consideration, as capable of discussing philosophy and promoting real science; or should they be treated with the compassionate toleration which one gives to "harmless enthusiasts"? Men slander only those whom they hate--or fear. Holding this country [India], as we do, for the fruitful hot-bed whence proceeded all subsequent philosophical systems, to this source of all psychology and philosophy The line of philosophical heredity, from Kapila through Epicurus to James Mill; from Patanjali through Plotinus to Jacob Boehme, can be traced like the course of a river through a landscape. T S OBJECTS …one of our objects, ‘’’[is] to revive the work of Ammonius Saccas, and make various nations remember that they are the children "of one mother." [Eclectic Theosophy of the 3rd Century in Alexandria, Egypt. see “Key to Theosophy,” p. 3-5, 39] With how much, then, of this nature-searching, God-seeking science of the ancient Aryan and Greek mystics, and of the powers of modern spiritual mediumship, does the Society agree? Our answer is: WITH IT ALL. BELIEFS ? But if asked what it believes in, the reply will be: "AS A BODY--NOTHING." The Society, as a body, has no creed, as creeds are but the shells around spiritual knowledge; and Theosophy in its fruition is spiritual knowledge itself--the very essence of philosophical and theistic enquiry. The religion of the Society is an algebraical equation, in which so long as the sign = of equality is not omitted, each member is allowed to substitute quantities of his own, which better accord with climatic and other exigencies of his native land, with the idiosyncrasies of his people, or even with his own. Having no accepted creed, our Society is very ready to give and take, to learn and teach, by practical experimentation, as opposed to mere passive and credulous acceptance of enforced dogma. It is willing to accept every result claimed by any of the foregoing schools or systems, that can be logically and experimentally demonstrated. Conversely, it can take nothing on mere faith, no matter by whom the demand may be made. THEOSOPHISTS ARE : The Society's members represent the most varied nationalities and races, and were born and educated in the most dissimilar creeds and social conditions. Some of them believe in one thing, others in another. Some incline towards the ancient magic, or secret wisdom that was taught in the sanctuaries, which was the very opposite of supernaturalism or diabolism; others in modern spiritualism, or intercourse with the spirits of the dead; still others in mesmerism or animal magnetism, or only an occult dynamic force in nature. A certain number have scarcely yet acquired any definite belief, but are in a state of attentive expectancy; and there are even those who call themselves materialists, in a certain sense. Of atheists and bigoted sectarians of any religion, there are none in the Society; for the very fact of a man's joining it proves that he is in search of the final truth as to the ultimate essence of things. ATHEISM If there be such a thing as a speculative atheist, which philosophers may deny, he would have to reject both cause and effect, whether in this world of matter, or in that of spirit…But even they are not atheist in the speculative sense, whether they identify the material forces of the universe with the functions with which the theists endow their God, or otherwise; for once that they cannot free themselves from the conception of the abstract ideal of power, cause, necessity, and effect, they can be considered as atheists only in respect to a Personal God, and not to the Universal Soul of the Pantheist. On the other hand the bigoted sectarian, fenced in, as he is, with a creed upon every paling of which is written the warning "No Thoroughfare," can neither come out of his enclosure to join the Theosophical Society, nor, if he could, has it room for one whose very religion forbids examination. THE VERY ROOT IDEA OF THE SOCIETY IS FREE AND FEARLESS INVESTIGATION. As a body, the Theosophical Society holds that all original thinkers and investigators of the hidden side of nature whether materialists--those who find in matter "the promise and potency of all terrestrial life," or spiritualists--that is, those who discover in spirit the source of all energy and of matter as well, were and are, properly, Theosophists. For to be one, one need not necessarily recognize the existence of any special God or a deity. One need but worship the spirit of living nature, and try to identify oneself with it. To revere that Presence, the invisible Cause, which is yet ever manifesting itself in its incessant results; the intangible, omnipotent, and omnipresent Proteus: indivisible in its Essence, and eluding form, yet appearing under all and every form; who is here and there, and everywhere and nowhere; is ALL, and NOTHING; ubiquitous yet one; the Essence filling, binding, bounding, containing everything, contained in all. It will, we think, be seen now, that whether classed as Theists, Pantheists or Atheists, such men are near kinsmen to the rest. Be what he may, …once that a student abandons the old and trodden highway of routine, and enters upon the solitary path of independent thought--Godward--he is a Theosophist; an original thinker, a seeker after the eternal truth with "an inspiration of his own" to solve the universal problems. With every man that is earnestly searching in his own way after a knowledge of the Divine Principle, of man's relations to it, and nature's manifestations of it, Theosophy is allied. It is likewise the ally of honest science, as distinguished from much that passes for exact, physical science, so long as the latter does not poach on the domains of psychology and metaphysics. And it is also the ally of every honest religion--to wit, a religion willing to be judged by the same tests as it applies to the others. Those books, which contain the most self-evident truth, are to it inspired (not revealed). But all books it regards, on account of the human element contained in them, as inferior to the Book of Nature; to read which and comprehend it correctly, the innate powers of the soul must be highly developed. Ideal laws can be perceived by the intuitive faculty alone; they are beyond the domain of argument and dialectics, and no one can understand or rightly appreciate them through the explanations of another mind, even though this mind be claiming a direct revelation. ORIENTALISM And it is also due to the unremitting labors of such Orientalists as Sir W. Jones, Max Müller, Burnouf, Colebrooke, Haug, St. Hilaire, and so many others, that the Society, as a body, feels equal respect and veneration for Vedic, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, and other old religions of the world; and, a like brotherly feeling toward its Hindu, Sinhalese, Parsi, Jain, Hebrew, and Christian members as individual students of "self," of nature, and of the divine in nature. T S CONSTITUTION Born in the United States of America, the Society was constituted on the model of its Mother Land. The latter, omitting the name of God from its constitution lest it should afford a pretext one day to make a state religion, gives absolute equality to all religions in its laws... The Society, modelled upon this constitution, may fairly be termed a "Republic of Conscience." MEMBERS OF THE T S We have now, we think, made clear why our members, as individuals, are free to stay outside or inside any creed they please, provided they do not pretend that none but themselves shall enjoy the privilege of conscience, and try to force their opinions upon the others. In this respect the Rules of the Society are very strict: It tries to act upon the wisdom of the old Buddhistic axiom, "Honour thine own faith, and do not slander that of others"; echoed back in our present century, in the "Declaration of Principles" of the Brahmo Samaj, which so nobly states that: "no sect shall be vilified, ridiculed, or hated." RULE: It is not lawful for any officer of the Parent Society to express, by word or act, any hostility to, or preference for, any one section (sectarian division, or group within the Society) more than another. All must be regarded and treated as equally the objects of the Society's solicitude and exertions. All have an equal right to have the essential features of their religious belief laid before the tribunal of an impartial world. In their individual capacity, members may, when attacked, occasionally break this Rule, but, nevertheless, as officers they are restrained, and the Rule is strictly enforced during the meetings. FOR, ABOVE ALL HUMAN SECTS STANDS THEOSOPHY IN ITS ABSTRACT SENSE; THEOSOPHY WHICH IS TOO WIDE FOR ANY OF THEM TO CONTAIN, BUT WHICH EASILY CONTAINS THEM. …we may state that [the T S], broader and far more universal in its views than any existing mere scientific Society, it has, plus science, its belief in every possibility, and determined will to penetrate into those unknown spiritual regions which exact science pretends that its votaries have no business to explore. UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD And, it has one quality more than any religion in that it makes no difference between Gentile, Jew, or Christian. It is in this spirit that the Society has been established upon the footing of a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. UNCONCERNED ABOUT POLITICS; HOSTILE TO THE INSANE DREAMS OF SOCIALISM AND OF COMMUNISM, WHICH IT ABHORS... THE SOCIETY CARES BUT LITTLE ABOUT THE OUTWARD HUMAN MANAGEMENT OF THE MATERIAL WORLD. The whole of its aspirations are directed towards the occult truths of the visible and invisible worlds. Whether the physical man be under the rule of an empire or a republic, concerns only the man of matter…They have no sway over the inner man. The true student has ever been a recluse, a man of silence and meditation. With the busy world his habits and tastes are so little in common that, while he is studying, his enemies and slanderers have undisturbed opportunities. But time cures all and lies are but ephemera. Truth alone is eternal. One man's thought, infinitely various as are its manifestations, is not all-embracing. Denied ubiquity, it must necessarily speculate but in one direction; and once transcending the boundaries of exact human knowledge, it has to err and wander, for the ramifications of the one Central and absolute Truth are infinite. PHILOSOPHY But as all work for one and the same object, namely, the disenthralment of human thought, the elimination of superstitions, and the discovery of truth, all are equally welcome. The attainment of these objects, all agree, can best be secured by convincing the reason and warming the enthusiasm of the generation of fresh young minds…And, as each--the great ones as well as small--have trodden the royal road to knowledge, we listen to all, and take both small and great into our fellowship. For no honest searcher comes back empty-handed, and even he who has enjoyed the least share of popular favor can lay at least his mite upon the one altar of Truth. - HPB THEOSOPHIST, October, 1879 ----------------------------------------------------- “THEOSOPHIST IS WHO THEOSOPHY DOES.” Key ======================================================= AUTHORITY HPB AS AN "AUTHORITY" HPB does not claim "authority." She claims to be a "messenger." Specifically a messenger from the Great and Ancient Lodge of ADEPTS. In both ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE she disclaims any personal authority and gives the credit for the records she transmits to the real authors, the Mahatmas. Since she was well aware that the Theosophical theories and hypotheses would be received with various degrees of incredulity from the academies, she was careful to make it clear that the information was in reality taken from the HISTORY that the Adepts and their disciples (chelas) had recorded down the ages. All that she requested was "equal time" and open consideration of what Theosophy had to offer. [ S D I 272 - 300 ] This suggests that THEOSOPHY is not a new fangled system of collated ideas drawn from many sources -- in fact if it were even that, then the marvel is of HPB's mind. And, her capacity in drawing such a vast diversity together and showing how the many pieces hung together to form a seamless whole in the world of ideas and concepts. In many student's experience and wide reading, there is no one who has written such a comprehensive view of our world, the organization of the universe, on the spiritual, intellectual and psychological basis, and the part that Mankind plays in that. The immortality of man's Spirit / Soul and the "God-spirit" (the Universal DEIFIC ESSENCE), being present in every "life-atom" of our LIVING UNIVERSE, are fundamental concepts. Everything in Nature trends in its life-experience towards a higher degree of knowledge, wisdom, and perfection. Each life-cycle (incarnation) is like a separate day at school and all are drawn together by the uniting thread of the immortal, and eternal spiritual Self which is at their core. In fact she shows how Theosophy traces the evolution of the "consciousness and intelligence" of the SPIRITUAL SOUL or Monad, through many forms -- from the atom to the human condition of independent free-will. As below, so above -- said the wise Hermes. The Atom and the Universe correspond in structure, movement and objectives. They are integrated into one vast brotherhood of sensitive and inter-protective laws. The great and the "small" are mutually dependent. "Spirit" cannot exist without "matter." Eternal Mind -- is the witness to all progress and life. This sweep and concept is one that can be traced in every one of the great religions and philosophies of the world. It is the record of their existence, of their common source, and of our participation, again and again, in those processes. Currently there is debate as to whether Theosophy has its roots in Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, etc... And the place of Judaism, Kabala, Islam and Sufism is debated and considered in many ways. The question is always asked: 'Does knowledge, wisdom, and action have limits?" The Universe stands as evidence that they not only do, b out that the inter-relationship which permits diversified "life," is as ancient as Science and philosophy are able to trace. It is understood that scholars who are deeply familiar with those systems and their development can trace the evidence and the pathways of the development of similarities in observation and thought. However, HPB claims on behalf of the great and ancient Lodge of Adepts, that all those were derived from the "Sanatana Dharma," the "Perennial Philosophy." which is a record of Life's development and history which they have observed and left records of.. [ ISIS UNVEILED Vol. 2, pp 98-105. ] Modern "Theosophy" [the Wisdom of the Deity] claims to expose the outlines of this system and traces these facts everywhere in the world, and in the records of history on all continents. As such Theosophy claims to be at the root and at the origin of all the great ancient religio-philosophical systems and provides a reason for their development as systems of practice leading to that kind of "initiation" which develops Wisdom in thought and mind as well as simultaneously the application of compassion and harmlessness in motive. Thus, Theosophy, is not exclusively religion, or philosophy but also includes science -- it is the power to investigate and record the workings of NATURE (Life as a Whole) in every stage and department of the world and our Universe. The sweep of the ever-present immortal Life, through cycles of evolution lead at last to the "all-Knowingness" of the PERFECTED MAN. The designation "Mahatma" (Great Soul) is one that includes all such self-developed men of superior knowledge and nature. It is held that every single "monad" in our world, and our Universe is destined to eventually enter the human stage of "freedom to think." From there on, as we, humans can, the power to develop further is placed squarely in our hands. The current test of humanity is? will it dare to assume the responsibility? Will it follow Hermes' other injunction: " Man, Know Thyself." The SECRET DOCTRINE therefore speaks of those great Initiates, the "Fathers" and the "Guardians" of wisdom, as the intelligent guides, and assistants that Nature employs to assist every fresh evolutionary effort, a "new Day" of intelligent development and progress -- open without exceptions to all beings. If this is grasped the minute details and studies of specialists, while respected, as continuing proof of the inclusive nature of Theosophy, is also shown to be but the outer covering, to be but one way to approach to the interior mystery of man's own mind, and its almost infinite capacities. If this infinite capacity of the human mind to grow and to understand the most simple, as well as the most complex subjects is grasped, the more learned will continually encourage the learners to investigate and prove for themselves all avenues, however diverse, of information, tradition and lore. And that is the always growing tip of the self-enlightening Mind. It always widens out to that which is permanent and universal, when given a chance to emerge from ignorance, doubt, skepticism and lethargy. Theosophy shows us that the real energizers are OURSELVES. =================================================== Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Koshek Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:59 AM To: Subject: RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS   I've been thinking about those questions for some time. Even though it is explained in Key to Theosophy, I still wonder "Who is a theosophist?"   If you remember, HPB says that membership in the Theosophical Society does not make one a theosophist, and furthermore, most members are not. She goes on to say that there are many theosophists, more than there are theosophists who are members in the Theosophical Society. (Section 2, page 20 in my addition.) Since I assume that a member of the Theosophical Society is most likely studying the Ancient Wisdom, perhaps study does not make one a theosophist? At the same time, a complete altruist may know nothing of the Ancient Wisdom, so the question arises - how can he be a true theosophist?   Does altruism naturally lead to theosophy?   ====================================================   Another question that also comes to mind is that of AUTHORITY. My own introspection leads me to the following conclusion. We first must listen before we can think. During the listening phase, when information is being passed on, doesn't the granter of that wisdom become an authority? This is why when we have faith in the Masters, as HPB says is pre-requisite to getting the teachings, our cup is empty so to speak and we listen without criticism. Then there is the second phase, which is thinking about the teaching. This is when we should be critical of what we have received, and wrestle with the concepts and see if it fits reason. At this second phase, it's best you do not consider authority, not even of the Master's themselves.   So my conclusion is, considering AUTHORITY depends on which phase of the process you are in, receiving or thinking.   Perhaps this resolves the apparent contradiction in the words of HPB and the Masters on AUTHORITY and DOUBT. This is my guess.   Koshek   Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From clarity12.1@juno.com Sun Dec 05 17:41:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28437 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:41:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:41:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:41:39 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail27.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.167]) by smtpout06.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5HQGGAUWREC2 for (sender ); Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:41:26 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvrHdyiwZEiupxFsCFZ1jh/g== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail27.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD5PMNZ5; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:40:45 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail27.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:39:50 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:39:50 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041205.174045.3529.70138@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 6:3:1407472691 X-MAIL-INFO: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 dcd9ed4848d961f848f888689188c16815a915c568e8e88c898cacc5a10da1a128dcd84838ec8818a9487178919588889c0129450000412d413c291d491db139e13c2cb8852c9975b83d853d3d557800cc41ad280511f5a911a8dcf595a995 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World Eastern Tradition Research Institute: Concerning H.P. Blavatsky's translations from the Book of Dzyan X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina I still wonder why we do not hear of the TAO is Theos talk and how it fits into the mix of the Ageless Wisdom and the relevance in current time. I have only become interested and do have have any theosophist to chat with about it. Regina -- "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: Long-time students of Theosophy as well as inquirers and new students will want to be aware of a new website titled: Eastern Tradition Research Institute founded by David and Nancy Reigle See: http://easterntradition.org/ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 05 17:44:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99290 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:44:28 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.253]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 21857396 for ; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:43:16 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041205194405.0437c180@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:45:06 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041205.174045.3529.70138@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: TAO X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pl post questions/issues you are interested in. Someone may respond. mkr At 01:39 AM 12/06/04 +0000, you wrote: >I still wonder why we do not hear of the TAO is Theos talk and how it fits >into the mix of the Ageless Wisdom and the relevance in current time. > >I have only become interested and do have have any theosophist to chat >with about it. > >Regina ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.799 / Virus Database: 543 - Release Date: 11/19/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Sun Dec 05 17:48:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38405 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 01:48:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 01:48:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 01:48:06 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail27.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.167]) by smtpout02.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5HQTWA3D5MQ2 for (sender ); Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvxesfux3n+zXr3ue8XS4O3A== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail27.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD5PZSGL; Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:47:22 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail27.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:46:32 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:46:32 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041205.174722.3529.70248@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 15:7:4053671688 X-MAIL-INFO: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 79 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina Welcome Kamal, You have much to contribute and I look forward to your sharing your experience. Just last night at our TS meeting in New Jersey, we were talking about svara and how certain families in India have the task of preserving the rites the make possible the growing of plants based on the pure sound vibration. Do you know anyting more about this? Regina -- Mauri wrote: Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: > > Dear Sir, > I am a professor of Physics. I have been studying theosophy since school > days. I have also been a member of Theosophical Lodge at Tikamgarhabout 32 > years back. In Physics, I have worked in Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and > Plasma Physics. In Theosophy, I have worked in rthe projection of Astral > Body. I have been in interested in Yoga and Meditation as well. I have > studied almost all the four vedas, Geeta, Valmiki Ramayan, Shri MadBhagwat > etc. I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group. > Sincerely yours > > ...Kamal-S-Rajput... Welcome. Looking forward to your input. Not that I'm "Sir," exactly, but ... If that post was intended for a particular "Sir," my apologies for jumping in. ^:-/ Mauri PS that's my symbol for a confused and speculative guy who thought he might've had something important enough to say but wound up scratching his head. But, not to worry, Kamal-S-Rajput, lots of people on this are (or might be generally considered to be, even by themselves, maybe ...) far less confused and speculative than myself. ^:-) Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 05 21:29:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67114 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 05:29:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 05:29:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gatekeeper.look.ca) (207.136.80.8) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 05:29:32 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.156] (helo=idirect.ca) by gatekeeper.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CbBQR-00075M-FW for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 05:28:43 +0000 Message-ID: <41B3EE89.30602@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:30:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.8 From: Mauri Subject: re crop circles and symbology X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn re crop circles and symbology Definitions re symbology, I suspect, might often enough tend to get more or less drawn toward various conventional notions, and where conventional (especially orthodox) notions might be seen as having presented a problem of sorts (in whatever "more specific" sense/context, as might be seen to be suggested by, say, Theosophical notions/modeling in contrast to the likes of, say, "dumbing down and corporatizing," eg ...) ... then, as I tend to see it, there might be limits to the means by which certain kinds of effects/influences might be prompted, I'm speculating. So I'm wondering if, maybe, that kind of situation might be justification (from the perspective of w/Whoever ...) for the production of phenomena that might be expected (by w/Whoever ...) to speak somewhat indirectly (by-passing conventional notions about symbols, per se ...) by somehow possibly alerting/reminding (even non-students of Theosophy, maybe ...) that a greater reality exists, transcending even, among other things, the widespead tendency/practice of dumbing down and corporatizing, and possibly transcending even some orthodox religious views, among other things ... Speculatively, Mauri From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 05 22:05:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29239 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 06:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 06:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 06:05:37 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.44]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 21884420 for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:04:24 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041206000441.0510dd00@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:06:13 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041205.174722.3529.70248@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is news to me. Has anyone seen any published info on this? mkr At 01:46 AM 12/06/04 +0000, Regina St Clare wrote: >Just last night at our TS meeting in New Jersey, we were talking about >svara and how certain families in India have the task of preserving the >rites the make possible the growing of plants based on the pure sound >vibration. Do you know anyting more about this? > >Regina ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: 12/05/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Mon Dec 06 01:55:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94037 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 09:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 09:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m16.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.206) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 09:55:05 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.8e.1bc5839b (17079) for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:53:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8e.1bc5839b.2ee58626@cs.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:53:42 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.206 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South Americ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Mauri, Thanks for your comments. Well, The climate of Nasca is ideal for the Nasca imprints as there is a consistent very low precipitation for quite a long time. However that is not a permanent condition and at certain periods the dryness was not continuous as it is today. There are studies on the Nasca Culture that separate them from ancient cultures. Maria Reich spent many years attempting to render an acceptable meaning to them, and as far as I know, never reached a final conclusion that was comprehensive, inclusive of all the elements and reviewed and accepted by her Peer Group. I find them immensely stimulating myself as well as the more recent Crop Circles. Even the dedicated "experts" who study the Crop Circles also differ in what signification's they think are intimated by them, and there is no serious consideration by the Peer Academic Disciplines of Science. In the same vein today's modern Archeologists are unmoving and obdurate in placing Tiahuanaco at around 1095 AD, completely throwing out Posnansky's 20 years of on site measurement and cataloguing so they can continue to maintain their accepted "Timeline" of cultures. I am not quite sure how you mean "corporate" in your usage. As far as elemental's, that too is unclear, I am sure some, especially those who advocate a Religious view may attribute the actions to some such as "elemental's" as a via to propose some negative connotation, but I do not think in my personal opinion that that is what, who, is the actual responsible party. Years ago, and also historically I saw the so called "Plasma Balls" some think make the crop circles and the circumstance was such that "communications" were in process of reception at that moment in time. They are not limited to crop circles and antedate crop circle activity. In the UFO community they are referred to as "Monitors" and I have seen them zipping around the outside of the "Communictors" home when he was giving the communication. Also the UFO case I was involved in for more than seven years had presentment of the Balls of Light, Orange in his case. They appeared quite a number of times and also on an occasion at the foot of his bed, beginning at about 18 inches in diameter, then expanding to a sphere large enough for a Person to take appearance within the sphere itself, that person spoke to him, or so he swears. I might add that he passed both Lie Detector and Voice Stress Analysis tests. Once when the "experiencer" was in a "rapport" state, due to my strong interest in just what the mysterious Balls of Light actually were, I directly asked "What are the Balls of Light?" I got a single word as the answer, "Distereoisomer," there is a branch of organic chemistry which involves with this that involves "Mirror Image" handedness of organic elements. But at any rate I find it ridiculous when scientists invent irrational rationality's to extrapolate an invented explanation for every thing under the sun. Clearly there is an "Intelligent Consciousness" that is the director of making Crop circles and not random Plasma descending from the troposphere to the ground level of a farm crop which then "composes" aesthetically organized Designs using the living plants. No, they will never run out of "creative" origination's to fixate and maintain the stasis of their mutual agreements, lol. John From samblo@cs.com Mon Dec 06 02:06:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47221 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 10:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 10:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m20.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.1) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 10:06:36 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.89.1b6849ed (17079) for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 05:02:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <89.1b6849ed.2ee58849@cs.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 05:02:49 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.1 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Eastern Tradition Research Institute: Concerning H.P. Blavat... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Daniel, Thanks for the Reigle's new Website, have placed in favorites and will be reading ASAP. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 06 04:11:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37585 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 12:10:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 12:10:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 12:10:56 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.29] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbHhc-0001H1-Lf; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 07:10:54 -0500 To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:06:57 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c4db8c$a12d2010$1d06f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <04dd01c4da36$ce1924e0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79b641fa00e4359e5daafea32b64ca4f52350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.29 Subject: RE: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 6 2004 Thanks Frank: All you say is most interesting. We all hope that there will be a change. Fortunately, THEOSOPHY is not the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY . Best wishes, Dallas =============================== -----Original Message----- From: ringding777@t-online.de [mailto:ringding777@t-online.de] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 11:24 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Judge "even higher than" Blavatsky?? > I think that you are talking about some letters that > exists in Adyar > related to Judge and Besant. > In her last visit to Argentina (April 2004), Radha > Burnier told me > that in Adyar exist a pile of letters about "Judge's > case" that > shows the righteous of Besant's attitude. > "Unfortunately -said me > Radha- there are a lot of theosophical work to do > and there are no > time for compile and edit this material. But someone > will must do it > in some time". As a theosophist I never believe anything what the hypocrites from Adyar claim. If there is no one who is interested in publishing the warning letters of Judge to Besant, why do they give no one else the opportunity to it? Perhaps Mrs Burnier would have more time to do theosophical work and publish the Judge letters (in the 1960'ies when Boris de Zirkoff viewed them, but was not allowed to publish them, the ink was already faded away) if she would not stick with Krishnamurti poppycock. And why did Joy Mills say that the Adyar bonzes will the glad when the letters get rot. > Theosophical Society of Adyar works in order to > promote a spiritual > regeneration in humanity, and usually sees all this Really? I have witnessed several times quite the opposite. It seems one of us two must be liar. > Dear Frank, as I can see through your messages, you > have a strong > tendency to see "black forces" and "dark reasons" in > everything that > is not your own point of view. Much of your > accusations to Adyar > T.S. are fantasies of people that imagine and > speculate, but don't > actually know, in which sense works the Adyar T.S. Really? Please explain me why the Adyar TS at its 2002 Berlin Convention recommended evil doings to be able to be a warrior of light for the now beginning last war to free the planet forever? It was said - in the presence of Radha Burnier and Mary Anderson - without allowing anyone to speak free or to contradict - that only that people which are doing evils now will be chosen by the Masters. So I kindly ask you: Which Masters do you have at Adyar? Obviously they are not the Masters of HPB. Your satanic brood is even far more worse than the Vatican and SJ together. Lie, hypocrisy, deception, misreprentation, contumely and ACTIVE BLACK MAGIC against true theosophists is the Adyar brand. And that has not changed much for the last 120 years. The Masters have left in 1885 and they never returned to Adyar. Expect the Krishnamurti poppycock. > much bad, as being in control of dugpas. You can be > in disaccord > with some points of view, etc. But you will be able > to see in a > compassionate and non-fanatic form the other people. > Sorry if I'm harsh in my expression... but remember > that I don't > know very much English... > With warm regards > p Toleration is a good thing, so long as your crazy Adyar people do not persecute the little ones. Your tone is very much psychic or emotional, quite the opposite of what is regarded in theosophy as spiritual. There is no spiritual argument in your answer. Not one. And that is typical for your gang. Also typical is the projection behavior. It is you who in twisting and misrepresentation the dorctrines and terms is fanatical, not your victims. To speak out cleary: Everyone who is a party-liner of Adyar and tries to hypnotize the people, prevent them to think and paralyse them with emotionalism (saying it's spiritual) is in fact an insane person. I have witnessed that in dozens of cases with local theosophists here and so it was reported to me also from many others. I have absolutely NO reason to mistrust them what I have eyewitnessed for many years. The real existing Adyar organization is a very big danger for true spiritual progress. And it is exactly for that reason that the theosophical organizations were prohibited by Hitler. And because of your Adyar pseudo-theosophy also the pukka theosophists had to suffer. You know that because in the Adyar archives is your letter exchange with Hitler. This letters would also interest many, but Adyar does not publish them. Perhaps you have also not enough time for that?? Har, har. with no king regards, Frank Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 06 04:11:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56661 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 12:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 12:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 12:11:09 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.29] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbHhh-0001H1-Sj; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 07:11:05 -0500 To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 04:06:57 -0800 Message-ID: <001401c4db8c$a4497b40$1d06f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec798483d73ee3ed29ad6b0ee21a821c4918350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.29 Subject: RE: Theos-World My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 6 2004 Dear Friend : Thanks for joining us and writing to introduce yourself. There are no formalities for writing in your comments and inquiries. Consider yourself and your views very welcome. We are all students and inquirers, and interested in the exchange of ideas. One might say we are perennial students, and also, trying to learn what THEOSOPHY can teach. We all feel that in this vast Universe, we have a lot to learn and are learning new things every day.=20=20 There are no finalities, but, hopefully with each other=92s help, we can assist one another to obtain an ever-focused sharpening of understanding. = =20 Here is one aspect of thought: May we assume that you have visited this Theosophy Study Discussion List because you hope that there may be answers from students of Theosophy which you could compare with the thesis you may have already set up. When we begin to consciously think of how we fit in and are part of the Whole, we can come to understand that we are powerful spiritual beings having a human experience that needs to be recognized and taken control of. =A0=09 Here is one way of looking at things :=A0 The present day Scientist and Theosophical students =96 and we are all students -- study the information provided and then we compare our understanding of them. Our =93Science=94 tries to explain by hypothesis and theories what may have= been the =93past=94 of present day observations (of course limited by the availability of artifacts and relics, and their present knowledge of the LAWS, so far detected and observed to be operating, in many correlated departments of Nature). No one will dispute facts. One proviso in this work of scientific discover= y and identification is the one of extreme honesty =96 no secrets, no hiding = -- is that all facts and discoveries (anomalies especially) are to be made available for all to see and draw conclusions about.=20 >From evidence occasionally made available, it would seem that on occasion, certain facts (and artifacts) are removed from the glare of publicity =96 a= nd we might conclude that this is done because they could upset or question some well-established hypothesis or theory. If true, this is not strict =93honesty.=94 Where has the =93public=94 been invited to review the =93fac= ts?=94 This I have looked for but rarely if ever found in a systematic, scientific way. As a result, I, for one, although a student of Science and an editor, distrust scientific hypotheses, and any kind of pontification. There are i= n Science no =93authorities=94 =96 only seekers, observers and honest, accura= te reporters. As a case in point, let me refer you to the voluminous work HIDDEN ARCHEOLOGY (by Cremo and Johnson) published in San Diego, and a second volume issue two years later, in which they document the reception by scientists of their first book and the anomalous =93facts=94 it displays. = =20 Several authors down the years have pointed to these and (to my knowledge) have never been thoroughly refuted by Science =96 or given prominence -- to= my knowledge.=20=20 We may take the writings of John Anthony West, Von Danniken, Emanuel Velikovsky, Charles Fort, H. P. Blavatsky. These are four authors, who in their writings, articles, books -- have challenged =96 not Science=92s fact= s -- but their interpretations of the past as they have reconstructed it in thei= r widely accepted (but rarely re-investigated) theories and hypotheses. There are in existence challenging anomalies that demand a review of the older theories =96 after all, a =93theory, or, an hypothesis=94 are not inf= lexible and are always subject to revision as new facts are discovered. In my opinion, the exposing of challenges to scientific =93hypothesis and theories=94 show us, who are thinkers and observers, that they are not invariably of the highest value (although they are often taught as =93truth= s). They cannot be adopted or treated as =93authoritative.=94 There are differences to be investigated.=20=20 =A0 One may well ask: Why is it a fact that there are disagreements? We presen= t our views and findings, you have your own to compare. Naturally we will present to you what we know in terms drawn from Theosophy as you have approached us to find out what THEOSOPHY says.=20=20 =A0 As to providing you with information from =93other systems,=94 while this i= s available, we have not all done that extensive work and concentrated it. I believe it will prove difficult (but ought to be initiated), as the fundamental Theosophical approach is: that it, Theosophy, is a very ancien= t system of continued Scientific research and observation in all departments of Nature, and of the world religions, philosophies, and also this observation and recording in old as well as modern Sciences, are derived from it.=20=20 As an example, in H P B=92s =93The SECRET DOCTRINE=94 you will find it stat= ed that the doctrines discussed have an antiquity going back some at least 18 million years.=20=20 HPB states those are actually physically in the possession of the =93Maste= rs of Wisdom.=94 [ S D I 272-3 ] That exceeds by a great many years, and cycles of years, any concept of time that the research done by organized Science in the past 300 years -- (I mean, since =93Orientalism,=94 began w= ith the scientists that Napoleon 1 had accompany him to Egypt in the very early 19th century.) It is of course very annoying to find that the ancients (India, China, Tibet, Mongolia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Iran, the Incas and Mayans, etc=85) ha= d made discoveries and had observed the movement of the stars for millennia before our present =93discoveries.=94 In many cases we (our Science) corroborates those, and in some we have disagreement.=20=20=20 The main point and attitude we, as investigators and Scientists, ought to always adopt ought to be: Lets verify. Let=92s freely admit that we have discovered evidence that shows antiquity, in many parts of the world, had processes and used materials they were able to manufacture for which we hav= e yet to discover the secrets.=20 There is no =93shame=94 in this, but any claims to novelty disappear in the rightful process of verification.=20 =A0 Theosophical sources are the writings of Mme. Blavatsky: books and articles, most of which can be studied and understood by anyone.. Also, to some extent, they have to be individually supplemented with first hand observation and inquiries over years.=20 =A0 Neither you, nor we (as students of Theosophy), are the final arbiters in this. We do make comparisons. Some we understand and others we do not. W= e are continually learning, all of us.=20=20 But, as I understand it, it is facts that we are looking for, as well as, the supporting of mental acuity and freedom of thought.=20=20 Those who worship at the shrine of TRUTH and FACT are contemptuous of no source of information, nor of any anomalies, or of contemporary or earlier work done by any one. We seek for traces of similarity, of analogy, or correspondence.=20=20 Look through ISIS UNVEILED, (by HPB) if you wish to see what facts and events are brought forward for consideration there. It tends to point to important evens and anomalies that the Science of her days (and now, still) need to verify. On publication, ISIS UNVEILED created a sensation, and in a week all copies of the book were sold. It has been kept in print since then.=20=20 Eleven years later The SECRET DOCTRINE was issued;. There you have a synopsis and review of the Occult records of the history of our Earth=92s formation and the evolution of mankind. These are meticulously contrasted with Science and its theories as known and taught in her time of writing. Some of those are still maintained. In many cases, and most often in terms of cycles and time=96periods, the SECRET DOCTRINE does not agree with the current theories and hypotheses of modern Orientalism and Science. But tha= t does not make them wrong, or extraordinarily fanciful, or suspect. [see S D II, pp. 78-80] =A0 We (as students of Theosophy) take the position that NATURE (or Deity) already contains everything. It is Nature as a fully conscious and intelligent lawful ENTITY of enormous size =96 which, as a whole, supports every detail of our needs (as well as those of all other beings in existence). It gives us, not only our =93life,=94 but that of all =91being= s=92 that make up our total environment. Law and Laws alone govern every aspect of being and manifestation. Our Science studies those.=20 NATURE is the Universal Shrine Of Our Common Worship. Its organization ranges through seven stages between the limits of INFINITY and NOUGHT. It i= s a calculus made living and perfectly obvious to the seeker. All living beings, of whatever kind, are supported by the united processes of laws that Nature has already in place. [ Chemistry, physics, mathematics= , astronomy, biology, medicine, sociology, linguistics, politics, history, paleography, philosophy, theology, etc=85 are as old as thinking man -- a period said to comprise at least 18 million years. [see S D I, p. 150 footnote]=20=20 All the discoveries of Science are simply the revealing and verifying of what is already there laid down and operating under Nature=92s control and supervision. There is no =93novelty=94 only DISCOVERY, and verification of facts observed. =A0 Our present knowledge has, and is, gradually being built up. It is NOT built on the basis that any one individual =93knows best,=94 or knows =93everything,=94 and therefore challenging words like =93lies,=94 =93misunderstandings,=94 =93charlatanry,=94 =93fraud,=94 etc. are not used,= unless there is verified evidence, at FIRST HAND of their existence. Their use in inquir= y and conversation implies to me, that certain judgments have been made. Permit me to question their validity.=20=20 As you have read the literature of Theosophy, then, in a broad-minded, free capacity to embrace information, do you have any specific objections to statements made there. Inquiry starts with dialog. But if there is a pre-judged position assumed by either party, at that point inquiry and exchange ceases. It then becomes argument =96 and =93opinions=94 as viewed= by some impartial third party=94 are made to emerge and strand on whatever bas= is they deserve.=20 Incidentally, have you have read Sylvia Cranston=92s biography of H.P.B. (Tarcher, New York) as it answers seriously and with documented facts all the innuendos cast at this life and work of this remarkable Personage =A0 If permitted, let me ask, if you have read ISIS UNVEILED or The SECRET DOCTRINE? I am interested in the opinions you have to offer, and their basis.=20 =A0 If one has had the benefit of a wide acquaintance with Science and Academic research in general, one may find that the most valuable attitudes among such wonderful and dedicated people can be classed as humility, diligence, and unprejudiced research =96 and of course, this has to include a wide research, and a good knowledge of all adjacent disciplines.=20=20 Those who are at the forefront of discovery in Science, Orientalism, and Philosophy ask probing questions, seek for facts, and do not make pronouncements, designed to support their views, guesses and opinions of th= e past or present. To take but a few we have at the cutting edge of Science: Hawkings, Penrose, Sheldrake, Margulis, Mandelbrot, Viswanath Diwakar, etc. =A0 Theosophy fills gaps that Science is still trying to bridge, and for which (and it is a lack of specific knowledge) it has erected =93possible views= =94 of plausible causes and procedures in the establishing of a reasonable =93history,=94 and calls them: theories and hypotheses, which are found to frequently change as the history of Science reveals, when new evidence appears.=20=20 =A0 It would seem to me, that you may have adopted some conclusions which today are acceptable in your =93Discipline.=94 And it also seems to me that you = are seeking to verify and prove your pre-judged position. To me, this is most commendable as it will enable you to make strict scientific research possible.=20=20 =A0 You have obviously made a unique study -- leading to specialization. You have therefore assumed that the solutions (theories and hypotheses) accepte= d by your =93authorities=94 and adopted by you are correct. But are you not = in the process of proving them also? Your discoveries in India's ancient literature and records will be most valuable to correspondents here. =A0 In my own way of looking at myself, I prefer to call myself a =93generalist= .=94 I listen to all sides and take notes and reserve assuming any position unti= l it is clear we are all considering such facts and reports as are available. I try to cover a number of inter-related disciplines, since it is evident that Nature has interlocking and cohesive systems in place. For example, o= n careful examination I believe we might say:=20=20 Nature (taken as a whole) appears to be infinitely sensitive and responsive to the needs of the individual components of its many systems. One can see order and precision in the motions, and influence surrounding an atom, a crystal, an element or a chemical compound, a plant, an animal, a man, a mathematical equation, or a chemical, physical or astronomical problem -- or take the remarkable advance in astro-physics and look at a Solar System and the large number of interacting Galaxies that the use of the Hubble telescope has revealed in all directions.=20=20 Is the Universe in fact an enormous SUN ? Are we bathed (as unit parts of its inhabitants) with a constant stream of the most varied radiations?=20 We live on Earth, but our =93heads=94 are in those far stars. Are we then t= o limit and sequester our knowledge?=20=20 What roads of endeavour lead to WISDOM ? =A0 Law and Laws are found to rule everywhere. Science depends on the honesty and accuracy of Nature in all its works near and far. Science makes its declarations based on the facts it discovers. It chooses NATURE as the final authority. It says that any discovery can be replicated and demonstrated by any one else. It is the universality of facts that is valuable, and not the individual opinions of the discoverers.=20=20 =A0 In the orient, the oldest texts were transmitted verbally with great contro= l over sound and inflection because (and I have tapes that demonstrate this) concealed in the sound were some of the =93codes=94 whereby secret knowledg= e was transmitted. The superficial sounds in ancient verses were made to present a coherency that served as a kind of =93blind=94 which diverted and deflect= ed the attention of a newcomer or a non-initiate. =A0 There are certain euphonic similarities which, studied in terms of actual linguistic distribution (present and past) are said to have a relationship.= =20 It remains to find out what is correct. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE (on languag= e and codes): I, pp. 269, 307-25, 362, 568; II, pp, 198-201, 334-5, 364, 560, ] =A0 Again, neither of us are either right or wrong, but we seek to find out where the greater accuracy is. Your research and mine may overlap in places, but they are not invariably coincident, and certainly neither of us can assume that their position and our particular observations are necessarily final, and the statements made by the other are idiotic.=20 And as I understand it, in a life time of dealing with experts in all departments of Scientific research, prejudice is usually careless of the findings of other disciplines, unless the researcher has a rare and inquisitive (even intuitive) nature and is determined to find the TRUTH by any and every means, and accept no conclusions unless they are proven to general satisfaction. We accept nothing and reject nothing. The future will teach this.=20=20 [Incidentally, you will find a full range of Theosophical literature =93on line=94 at=20 PHOENIX=A0 ULT=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 www.phx-ult-lodge.org= / =A0=A0=A0 Books "on line" and for downloading SECRET DOCTRINE -- HPB ISIS UNVEILED -- HPB The VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- HPB LIGHT ON THE PATH=20 A MODERN PANARION=A0 ( H P B ) FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE=A0 ( H P B ) KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) & GLOSSARY (H P B) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY (H P B) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER (Robert Crosbie) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ETERNAL VERITIES=A0 (Robert Crosbie) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN=20 " CLASS (R C) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 POINT OUT THE WAY [Answers to Questions at an=20 "Ocean" Class (J G) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 BHAGAVAD GITA=A0 and=A0 BHAGAVAD GITA NOTES=20=09 (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ECHOES FROM THE ORIENT (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY=A0 (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS (Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME=A0 ( W Q Judge ) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THEOSOPHICAL FORUM=A0--=A0ANSWERS BY=A0 (W Q Judge) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THE DHAMMAPADA=A0 ( Footfalls of the Law )=A0 (Gautama Buddha) THE LIGHT OF ASIA=A0 (Gautama Buddha - life & teachings) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875 - 1950)=A0 History ------------------------------------ We, the entire Universe, ever pursues a common and conjoint path of discovery, so while recording facts and events, our final conclusions ever ride along with us, and have to remain as flexible hypotheses =A0-- they he= lp us understand until they for lack of finality, break-down and have to be reframed. The general plan is there all right, but as we all progress through time and events, we reframe the conclusions (Karma) we will have t= o meet in the future.=20 There is no =93stasis=94 (except some assumed ones) anywhere. What are tho= se? 1 the UNIVERSE exists. (On many planes of substance and sensitivity) 2 we as OBSERVERS exist =96 we are immortals as no beginning or end to our work seems logical. Bodies wear out and die, but Karma provides us wit= h new ones, and so one and on=85 (we, as Essential Beings, are not physical = nor mental, but of some kind of SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE that survives the continual =93ravages of change,=94 in its correlates of time, and alterations in spac= e. =A0 3. the ongoing relations between the UNIVERSE and OURSELVES are an essential part of this timeless and limitless REALITY. In the SECRET DOCTRINE they are said to be seven-fold [ see S D I, 157-8; II, 296 ]. =A0 I hope this will help, Best wishes,=20 Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Kamal S Rajput=20=20 Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 9:29 AM To:=20 Subject: My Introduction Dear Sir, I am a professor of Physics. I have been studying theosophy since school=20 days. I have also been a member of Theosophical Lodge at Tikamgarhabout. 32 years back. In Physics, I have worked in Quantum Mechanics, Relativity and Plasma Physics. In Theosophy, I have worked in rthe projection of Astra= l Body. I have been in interested in Yoga and Meditation as well. I have=20 studied almost all the four vedas, Geeta, Valmiki Ramayan, Shrimad Bhagwata= , etc. I shall be thankful, if you accept me as an active member of the group= . Sincerely yours ...Kamal-... From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 04:53:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73676 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 12:53:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 12:53:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 12:53:02 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.138.238.173]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F90D34DA for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:52:55 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.5]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 10:52:43 -0200 Message-ID: <005401c4db92$7a1ac760$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:52:43 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Welcome Kamal X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Welcome Kamal Deal Kamal and Regina We are glad to have you among us and I am sure you can contribute and trade= many views with us, not only due to your being an indian citizen, a Theoso= phy student but the interesting background you seem to have got. I am Krishtar, from Brazil, Graphic Designer and Illustrator, free student = of theosophy and a lover of indian culture and writings. I, like many, don=B4t have enough time to read and write on the computer ev= eryday, this group posts a lot, but whenever is possible I read, follow and= give my opinions. I=B4ve been reading the SD in the original 1988 version for the first time = , all I read was the later "revised" version and translated into our mother= tongue, Portuguese. I also have been reading and then translating The ocean of Theosophy by WQ = Judge. The great majority of the Theos. books here are from the new theosophers af= ter HPB but now is very easy to get the online versions and CDRom media ava= iable. Feel free to post your views to us; Best wishes Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Mon Dec 06 06:02:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59828 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 14:02:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 14:02:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 14:02:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2004 14:02:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Dec 2004 14:02:33 -0000 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:02:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041205.174722.3529.70248@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 921 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 83.82.5.119 Subject: Re: My Introduction X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Hallo Kamal, Welcome too and I am sure you have to contribute a lot to the puzzles of life. "Regina St Clare" wrote: > > > Just last night at our TS meeting in New Jersey, we were talking about svara and how certain families in India have the task of preserving the rites the make possible the growing of plants based on the pure sound vibration. Do you know anyting more about this? > > Regina Hallo ; Another question; I have seen in our lodge there was one person Mr R.E and he has the gift to make flowers fresh and gives them a longer life , like he is a Brahma. (Svaraj) as European Theosophist. > > Greetings Christina > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Juno Gift Certificates > Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. > http://www.juno.com/give From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 09:43:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26806 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 17:43:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 17:43:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 17:43:30 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbMtM-0001Xl-2P for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 12:43:20 -0500 Message-ID: <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 12:43:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbac30572d83609f84b36efc66c8fafde2c666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Regina St Clare wrote: > One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a > theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without > defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the > true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was > dedicated to accomplishing. As a theosophist, you should know that things are not that simple. Do you believe that includes, for example, a belief in genocide? A belief that some people are naturally inferior to each other based on who their parents were? That people who have sexual preferences for the same gender are automatically evil? That seizing the property of the Theosophical Society for use by another organization is a right and proper thing to do? That there is only one path to the truth, and that everybody not following that path should drop it and follow that one true path? I don't think that Blavatsky would have any trouble with people having difficulty accepting those points of view. There is a difference between tolerance, respect, and acceptance. Bart From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 11:02:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6220 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 19:02:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 19:02:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 19:02:39 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.138.238.173]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2231F34C2 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:02:03 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:01:57 -0200 Message-ID: <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:01:57 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is plainly obvious that she didn=B4t mean this. Perhaps Regina didn=B4t use the correct word, what if she didn=B4t meant " = accept" in the common sense but "understand", respect? Krishtar Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS Regina St Clare wrote: > One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a > theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without > defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the > true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was > dedicated to accomplishing. As a theosophist, you should know that things are not that simple. Do you believe that includes, for example, a belief in genocide? A=20 belief that some people are naturally inferior to each other based on=20 who their parents were? That people who have sexual preferences for the=20 same gender are automatically evil? That seizing the property of the=20 Theosophical Society for use by another organization is a right and=20 proper thing to do? That there is only one path to the truth, and that=20 everybody not following that path should drop it and follow that one=20 true path? I don't think that Blavatsky would have any trouble with people having=20 difficulty accepting those points of view. There is a difference between= =20 tolerance, respect, and acceptance. Bart =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Mon Dec 06 11:15:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97830 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 19:15:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 19:15:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 19:15:28 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail26.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.166]) by smtpout06.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5KM7WAEULM8A for (sender ); Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:15:00 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvVb2Vv4t/3JeEkdwR6pbxvA== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail26.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD7KW5MZ; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:14:29 PST Received: from [198.31.188.74] by webmail26.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:15 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:15 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 8:4:1553246000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [198.31.188.74] Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina I just wrote a long response to Bart and it got deleted somehow. I will get back on this distinction of respect, tolerance and acceptance. Radical compassion is the issue I think. How can we judge who is in his heart is unsaved or unsavable? Where does Love thy Enemy come in? And,yes, stealing property is an issue that needs legal attention and hopefully justice. As for homosexuals,(though it is said that Leadbeater was homosexual)or people in the meat industry/non vegetarians not being accepted in the inner circles of the higher orders, I understand the rational, but where do you draw the lines between inclusion and exclusion and how do we really know what's in a person's heart. Overacceptance can be a problem. What is right acceptance? There is a recent book on Radical Compassion, exact title/author not remembered at the moment.Some good examples on the problem. Deerfield Lodge had that author, if you want to go further. All in all, I think the theos- talk group who seem diverse enough, are a respectful bunch and really make a good effort to work through differences. I also notice that ts-ers become very silent when they do not want to answer certain questions or issues, perhaps when they are wrong and are unwilling to make corrections. I have had a several good experience with a wrong that was done and was corrected. That was hopeful. In other cases, there seems to be no mechanism for resolving differences or healing issues between people. The point is that there is often more contention than harmony. Am I projecting? That's also possible. Maybe this is about 4th Ray conflict on the way to harmony? I leave this post with more questions that answers. I do believe there is a lack of relationship healing effort and committment in certain ts circles. Perhaps I am over-sensitive or radically judgmental or just a pest on this issue. And maybe we are not really talking about the same thing here, which often happens in these chats. Maybe someone is able to help Regina -- Bart Lidofsky wrote: Regina St Clare wrote: > One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a > theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without > defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the > true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was > dedicated to accomplishing. As a theosophist, you should know that things are not that simple. Do you believe that includes, for example, a belief in genocide? A belief that some people are naturally inferior to each other based on who their parents were? That people who have sexual preferences for the same gender are automatically evil? That seizing the property of the Theosophical Society for use by another organization is a right and proper thing to do? That there is only one path to the truth, and that everybody not following that path should drop it and follow that one true path? I don't think that Blavatsky would have any trouble with people having difficulty accepting those points of view. There is a difference between tolerance, respect, and acceptance. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From clarity12.1@juno.com Mon Dec 06 11:23:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97650 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 19:23:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 19:23:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 19:23:17 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail26.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.166]) by smtpout03.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5KNL9AJS9EPJ for (sender ); Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:22:07 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgvuOg6Fxe/XaxBsiOksD+dZw== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail26.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD7LBK2T; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:21:17 PST Received: from [198.31.188.74] by webmail26.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:20:45 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:20:45 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041206.112117.1427.82598@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 11:5:438449 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [198.31.188.74] Subject: respect, toleranace and acceptance --distinctions. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina Understand is a good word for accept. Acceptance does not mean agreement to me. It means that I accept that you are the way you are,not that I agree with it. To me this puts a circle of healing around the issue. Then one can allow the duality to find its balance. (ying/yang) We often do not hold the space for resolution, but become part of the reaction mechanism inherent in the personality realm. AS TS folks, it seems that we have the greater task of holding the ONE ness that has the healing Space that makes resolution of issues possible on either a small or large scale. If we do not begin in small ways, then how can we expect anything better in the large scale? Thanks for your reading of this Kristar, Regina -- "krishtar" wrote: It is plainly obvious that she didn´t mean this. Perhaps Regina didn´t use the correct word, what if she didn´t meant " accept" in the common sense but "understand", respect? Krishtar Original Message ----- From: Bart Lidofsky To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS Regina St Clare wrote: > One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a > theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, without > defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will have the > true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and all, was > dedicated to accomplishing. As a theosophist, you should know that things are not that simple. Do you believe that includes, for example, a belief in genocide? A belief that some people are naturally inferior to each other based on who their parents were? That people who have sexual preferences for the same gender are automatically evil? That seizing the property of the Theosophical Society for use by another organization is a right and proper thing to do? That there is only one path to the truth, and that everybody not following that path should drop it and follow that one true path? I don't think that Blavatsky would have any trouble with people having difficulty accepting those points of view. There is a difference between tolerance, respect, and acceptance. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 12:24:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32450 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 20:24:44 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbPPX-0006q5-SR for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:24:44 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:24:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba9ecb26a48e83d36b843ed69b903c36160ca2637590cc961d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Regina St Clare wrote: > Radical compassion is the issue I think. How can we judge who is in > his heart is unsaved or unsavable? Where does Love thy Enemy come in? First of all, not all of us belong to the Cult of the Failed Messiah. Second of all, there is a difference between loving an enemy and loving the enemy's ideas. > And,yes, stealing property is an issue that needs legal attention and > hopefully justice. As for homosexuals,(though it is said that > Leadbeater was homosexual)or people in the meat industry/non > vegetarians not being accepted in the inner circles of the higher > orders, I understand the rational, but where do you draw the lines > between inclusion and exclusion and how do we really know what's in a > person's heart. Depends on what you mean by inclusion and exclusion. Frankly, the only membership application the New York Theosophical Society turned down when I was on the Board of Directors was one where the person specifically stated that they wished to join the NYTS for the purpose of using it as a base to start his own religion. > I also notice that ts-ers become very silent when they do not want to > answer certain questions or issues, perhaps when they are wrong and > are unwilling to make corrections. Sometimes, I will be silent on an issue because the person on the other side clearly has no intention of paying attention to anything I say, and saying it would be a waste of time and effort. > The point is that there is often more contention than harmony. Am I > projecting? That's also possible. And why is that a problem? > Maybe this is about 4th Ray conflict on the way to harmony? What's the 4th Ray? Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 12:24:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53181 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 20:24:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 20:24:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 20:24:52 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbPPg-0006tR-0u for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:24:52 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4BD9A.2040001@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:14:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba9ecb26a48e83d36b2eb4b2bd34465e81900f0771c95f4286350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.67 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > It is plainly obvious that she didn´t mean this. Perhaps Regina > didn´t use the correct word, what if she didn´t meant " accept" in > the common sense but "understand", respect? "Understand" and "respect" don't fit in with the rest of her sentence: >> One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a >> theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, >> without defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will >> have the true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and >> all, was dedicated to accomplishing. And, frankly, even "respect" does not make sense. At most, understanding and tolerance. I can understand a belief system that does not allow me to have my own; I can even tolerate it. But I'm not going to respect it. And there were plenty of religious beliefs H. P. Blavatsky did not respect, either. Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Dec 06 12:39:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39997 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 20:38:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 20:38:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 20:38:09 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.8] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CbPcS-0007zx-AI for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 20:38:04 +0000 Message-ID: <41B4C399.50906@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:39:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <8e.1bc5839b.2ee58626@cs.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=9.0 tests=HTML_30_40,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World re teachings/Masters today and in ancient Egypt, South Americ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn samblo@cs.com wrote: <> John, but then if she didn't take into account possible links/ramifications between the civilizers (Virachoca, Kukulkan, Quetzalcoetl, etc) in ancient South America and Mexico and elsewhere, on the one hand, and the various Masters per the Esoteric/Theosophical Tradition throughout the ages, on the other hand, seems to me that her investigations (like the investigations of those who tend to approach such studies with rather orthodox notions, initial assumptions) might be found to be somewhat lacking in terms of other possible explanations, possibly by some students of Theosophy, eg. <> Yes, and having recently read a three- quarter page article in the Toronto Star (Dec4/04, page A35) entitled "Scolars breathe 'fresh air,'" I tend to wonder about the direction that higher education, in general, is headed towards. Seems that Susan and Henry Giroux of Penn State University were, at one time, "leading lights" there as educators/scholars, but have moved to McMaster University in Canada.. I quote: <<... Giroux's belief that "dumbing-down and corporatization" is now at the centre of the U.S. governments agenda for education.>> In short, seems to me as if a number of adherents to orthodox views in archeology and the sciences are in many cases bowing or dumbing-down to various corporate and/or orthodox interests. And while some investigators may feel that they're independent, I suspect that in some cases their background education might have set them up with preconceived notions about history, in general, so that their invenstigations, in S.A., eg, might be biased and lacking in some sort of broader perspective as to what might have occurred, how, why. I tend to interpret Hancock's "Finger-prints of the Gods" as saying, in effect, that the various people in S.A. and Mexico who were taught in ancient times by the civilizers were basically rather backward, and I suspect that all or most of their apparently advanced culture (as might be seen reflected in calendars, buldings, etc) was inherited more or less intact from the earlier civilizers. I read that the civilizers at one point managed to stop the ongoing human sacrifices, eg, but apparently the sacrifices were resumed and intensified after those civilizers left. So I'm tending to suspect that there was much dumbing down in S.A. and Mexico before and after the civilizers, because of which I tend to view their (Mayan, Aztec, etc) interpretations with suspicion, one of those being the Mayan interpretation about the "end of the cycle" on Dec23/2012 (per the "Mayan calendar"). <> And according to Hancock the advances in culture and technology had occurred rapidly, in the space of a few years, as in the case of ancient Egypt and elsewhere. If one compares that kind of evolution with, eg, the evolution of the automobile, the differences become curious, don't you think ... In other words, the earlist writings and building techniques in ancient Egypt, SA and elsewhere seem to be, in many cases, apparently, far more advanced than the later ones. Seems to me as if the civilizers might have seen some sort of window of karmic opportunity to help the more backward races just after the previous cycle or major world catastrophe, but they then seem to have stepped back. << I am not quite sure how you mean "corporate" in your usage. >> How about considerations about financial rewards and punishments ... Apparently there are people who have worries/concerns about how they can pay for their houses, cars, kid's tuition, etc. Apparently there are people who might tend to go along with whatever "corporate" or orthodox agenda might best help them financially or by way of whatever form of imagined prestige, even if dumbing down is required along the way. A positive angle on all that might be that least today's humans have made some advances in how human sacrifice is practiced ... <> In case you missed it, I repeat, with additions: I've been under the impression that humans and elementals might, under certain circumstances, enter into certain co-operative efforts, but that elementals, on their own, might not be capable of producing typical crop circles, eg. As for "more important things to do" re Masters, I suspect that they would tend to have their hands tied, in effect, by karma, so that (possibly ...) their efforts to help might be somewhat limited to various kinds of influences (such as by way of crop circles, possibly ...) that would not be counter to karmic allowances. Of course I don't know whether from the perspective of Masters (per linages such as KH and M, eg ...) the production of typical crop circles for the purpose of affecting humankind, in whatever sense, would be within karmic allowances (ie, whether such circles are interpreted/reacted-to subliminally or otherwise). <> Seems to me that your last sentence there might be interpreted as a reference to an example of dumbing down and corporatizing. Anyway, I figure that students of Theosophy might find Hancock's books interesting. Speculatively, Mauri From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 13:15:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63509 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 21:15:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 21:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 21:15:01 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.138.238.173]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1D3347E for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:59 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 19:14:53 -0200 Message-ID: <00d001c4dbd8$a12398a0$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> <41B4BD9A.2040001@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:14:53 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Semantics, concepts, correction, criticism. Accept, understand, tolerate, consent.. So many words, one for each occasion. Frankly, we all have different levels of understanding. From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS krishtar wrote: > It is plainly obvious that she didn=B4t mean this. Perhaps Regina > didn=B4t use the correct word, what if she didn=B4t meant " accept" in > the common sense but "understand", respect? "Understand" and "respect" don't fit in with the rest of her sentence: >> One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a=20 >> theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, >> without defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will >> have the true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and >> all, was dedicated to accomplishing. And, frankly, even "respect" does not make sense. At most,=20 understanding and tolerance. I can understand a belief system that does=20 not allow me to have my own; I can even tolerate it. But I'm not going=20 to respect it. And there were plenty of religious beliefs H. P.=20 Blavatsky did not respect, either. Bart =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clarity12.1@juno.com Mon Dec 06 13:41:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: clarity12.1@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9904 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 21:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 21:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com) (64.136.20.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 21:41:19 -0000 Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail31.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.171]) by smtpout03.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABA5KWRBAUPGAEA for (sender ); Mon, 6 Dec 2004 13:40:49 -0800 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 4ohJS0CGC59/Kp5GWNMAw5dioYqCpGgv6mysOV3Em2xrTaNviH7kIQ== Received: (from clarity12.1@juno.com) by webmail31.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KD7UAJYF; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:40:32 PST Received: from [68.44.16.38] by webmail31.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:40:10 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:40:10 GMT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20041206.134032.12460.86234@webmail31.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 10:5:2959191266 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.136.20.164 From: "Regina St Clare" X-Originating-IP: [68.44.16.38] Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=178968717 X-Yahoo-Profile: stclareregina The only way we will have any communication of value is to seek to understand each other, not to attack every word, as though one is being attacked. If one talks from personal experience, then that experience is valid, regardless of another's view of it. If we are to experience any sense of oneness, we make the effort to understand, which requires basic respect, and more than just tolerance. I use the words specifically to mean a respect for all life tolerance of those things that I do not like, believe or understand understanding/acceptance of the suffering, which can be alleviated in my ability to seek to understand, or ACCEPT in the altruistic sense, not the agreement sense. Yes, I did use acceptance in a special way, as in to embrace, symbolically, like the circle that contains the duality in the Ying Yang symbol. Kristar picked up on it. I am not a Christian cultist, as implied. Saved means to be redeemed of error, which is part of the practice of discernment, but this may be where some ts folks have no tolerance. >From a Taoist POV, dharma corrects karma, when we make mistakes, we seek to correct. Otherwise we learn and share our knowledge in a respectful, helpful way. When we are not truly helping one another understand, what are we doing? Regina -- "krishtar" wrote: Semantics, concepts, correction, criticism. Accept, understand, tolerate, consent.. So many words, one for each occasion. Frankly, we all have different levels of understanding. From: Bart Lidofsky To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS krishtar wrote: > It is plainly obvious that she didn´t mean this. Perhaps Regina > didn´t use the correct word, what if she didn´t meant " accept" in > the common sense but "understand", respect? "Understand" and "respect" don't fit in with the rest of her sentence: >> One and All, To me, the day when any one who calls himself a >> theosophist can actually accept the point of view of another, >> without defense or offense in thought, word or deed, then we will >> have the true spirit of what HPB, in her best intention, flaws and >> all, was dedicated to accomplishing. And, frankly, even "respect" does not make sense. At most, understanding and tolerance. I can understand a belief system that does not allow me to have my own; I can even tolerate it. But I'm not going to respect it. And there were plenty of religious beliefs H. P. Blavatsky did not respect, either. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________ Juno Gift Certificates Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season. http://www.juno.com/give From jjhe@charter.net Mon Dec 06 13:41:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43101 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 21:41:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 21:41:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf22.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.222) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 21:41:32 -0000 Received: from mxip13.cluster1.charter.net (mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.143]) by mxsf22.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB6LfUUe011086 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:41:31 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip13.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2004 16:41:29 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.87,127,1099285200"; d="scan'208"; a="638091381:sNHT13679538" Message-ID: <41B4D20A.2040000@charter.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:41:30 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.222 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Hall of Magic Mirrors by Victor Endersby Online X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 If anyone is interested in unread original copies of this book, they are available at: Wizards Bookshelf P.O. Box 6600 San Diego, CA 92166 or Nautilus Books 325 North Broadway Turlock, CA 95380 Price: $13.00 plus $3.00 postage. --j Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >I have just been informed by a >correspondent that > >THE HALL OF MAGIC MIRRORS >by Victor Endersby > >is now available online >at: > >http://tinyurl.com/489h8 > >This book published in 1969 is a >study of H.P. Blavatsky's life and >work with a special look at the >attacks against her including >an analysis of the Hodgson Report. > > >It brings back fond memories of 1969 >when I first read this book. > >Daniel >http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 13:43:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61548 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 21:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 21:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 21:42:43 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.138.238.173]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3923B33ED8 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:42:38 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 19:42:32 -0200 Message-ID: <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 19:42:32 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends I once asked the group some views about the writings of Osho, which are so = popular and well read today. I admit that there had been a lot of hoaxes about his image but if we pay a= ttention to his points of view it is very interesting and he got a brillian= t and poetical way at looking and observing this world. When I wrote at that time all I got from the question "did Osho have a theo= sophic mind ?" all I read were two members' similar answers: One immediatel= y answered something like " if a bioterrorist can be called a theosophist h= e did have " and the other I don=B4t remember. Se how limited to a kind of ready-made criticism, to pre-formed concepts we= become!!! We become bitter! Do we become like that when we get very much older and still in the theosop= hical path? By this way we loose many opotunities of knowing other writers=B4 point of = views. It shows us that many of us who are so much time involved directly in the T= heosophical Society or its branches sometimes lose the poesy and become so = critical, that we become bitter.. farer and farer from drinking from the w= ine of the enlightenment. Here we are, criticizing, acting like judges as if we were in an higher pos= ition than the other. Krishtar=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjhe@charter.net Mon Dec 06 14:20:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16957 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:20:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:20:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf30.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.230) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:20:02 -0000 Received: from mxip12.cluster1.charter.net (mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.142]) by mxsf30.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB6MK1BG013986 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:20:01 -0500 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip12.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2004 17:20:01 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.87,127,1099285200"; d="scan'208"; a="651520858:sNHT12633274" Message-ID: <41B4DB11.2080802@charter.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:20:01 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.230 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Victor Endersby, Michael Gomes, Ted Davy etc. Keeping the Link Unbroken X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Michael Gomes has recently published a book: "Keeping the Link Unbroken: Theosophical Studies Presented to Ted G. Davy on His Seventy-Fifth Birthday." It is a collection of fourteen original essays by Theosophists associated with Ted and/or the Canadian Theosophist. One essay (written by myself) is titled "Victor A. Endersby, A Pioneering Independent Theosophist." It includes a lot of previously unpublished comments by Endersby regarding the Theosophical Movement. Other articles include: "Anagarika Dharmapala at the World's Parliament of Religions" by Michael Gomes; "An Early Attempt at Fraternization" (re. A.E.S. Smythe) by James Santucci; "Ozymandias: Why Do We Do What We Do?" by John Patrick Deveney; "Esoteric Christianity Reconsidered" by Leslie Price; Biographical Noates on Sri B.P. Wadia" by Dallas TenBroeck; "The Previous Buddhas" by Robert Hutwohl; "The First Fundamental Proposition of the Secret Doctrine" by David Reigle; The Secret Doctrine of the Rabbis" by Hen J. Spierenburg. Other essays by Doris Davy, Ernest Pelletier, Joan Sutcliffe, John Robert Colombo. New York: Theosophical Research Monographs, 2004. 197 pp. Soft bound, frontis., historical photos. Price: $20.00 plus $3.00 Postage. Available from: Nautilus Books 325 North Broadway Turlock, CA. 95380 Email me for more information. --j From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 14:25:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19220 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:25:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:25:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:25:07 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbRI2-0004Jv-QW for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:25:06 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4DC43.8010905@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:25:07 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041205.173322.3529.70036@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> <41B49A38.6090306@sprynet.com> <005b01c4dbc6$0ef8a400$0301010a@versus> <41B4BD9A.2040001@sprynet.com> <00d001c4dbd8$a12398a0$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <00d001c4dbd8$a12398a0$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbadb3951dda2861580e7b535ed24eec09b301ee85fcf877b1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > Semantics, concepts, correction, criticism. > Accept, understand, tolerate, consent.. > So many words, one for each occasion. > Frankly, we all have different levels of understanding. Uncritical acceptance is not understanding. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 14:35:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56280 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:35:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:35:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:35:35 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbRS8-0002r1-Oz for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:35:32 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4DEB5.3070208@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:35:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.134032.12460.86234@webmail31.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20041206.134032.12460.86234@webmail31.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbadb3951dda286158012bc33178216fc1d08a8bb3e8e732a70350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Regina St Clare wrote: > The only way we will have any communication of value is to seek to > understand each other, not to attack every word, as though one is > being attacked. You mean your statements about the Theosophical Society weren't attacks? They sure looked like attacks to me. > If one talks from personal experience, then that > experience is valid, regardless of another's view of it. Personal experience, or one's interpretation of personal experience? > If we are to experience any sense of oneness, we make the effort to > understand, which requires basic respect, and more than just > tolerance. Does that include Christian Identity, for example? How about the Ku Klux Klan? I try to understand them, and I tolerate the beliefs as long as they do not translate into action. Are you asking me to respect them, as well? > I am not a Christian cultist, as implied. But you DID imply. You asked, "Where does Love thy Enemy come in?" It is part of the theology of the Cult of the Failed Messiah. It is a religious statement, for a particular religion. And the fact that you stated it as if the belief was a given implies a confusion of religious belief and fact. > Saved means to be redeemed > of error, which is part of the practice of discernment, but this may > be where some ts folks have no tolerance. Do not confuse disagreement with intolerance. Also, do not confuse refusal to join a religion as intolerance. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 14:37:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50039 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:37:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:37:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:37:26 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbRTd-0003pa-J3 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:37:05 -0500 Message-ID: <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:37:06 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbadb3951dda286158063cdae623846a92487b2572753744e27350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > I once asked the group some views about the writings of Osho, which > are so popular and well read today. I admit that there had been a lot > of hoaxes about his image but if we pay attention to his points of > view it is very interesting and he got a brilliant and poetical way > at looking and observing this world. Are you referring to his criminal convictions as "hoaxes"? The people who were hospitalized by his bioterrorism didn't consider it to be a "hoax". Bart From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 14:59:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40608 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 22:59:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 22:59:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 22:59:54 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-215-103-165.jvece7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.103.165]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A2B33EDC for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:59:50 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 20:59:44 -0200 Message-ID: <011601c4dbe7$46ff95e0$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:59:44 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Were you also hospitalized over there, at that time? K ----- Original Message ----- From: Bart Lidofsky To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho krishtar wrote: > I once asked the group some views about the writings of Osho, which > are so popular and well read today. I admit that there had been a lot > of hoaxes about his image but if we pay attention to his points of > view it is very interesting and he got a brilliant and poetical way > at looking and observing this world. Are you referring to his criminal convictions as "hoaxes"? The people who were hospitalized by his bioterrorism didn't consider it to be a "hoax". Bart Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 06 15:59:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73193 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2004 23:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2004 23:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2004 23:59:08 -0000 Received: from [209.179.128.179] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbSkt-0004Lz-WD; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:59:02 -0500 To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 15:58:52 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4dbef$8dfd2220$b380b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79723b9f0d1970eed3e2a09782417f1716350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.69 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.179 Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: THAT LOVE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 6 2004 Dear Cass: Very interesting -- will review carefully. Some differences in terminology. Ideas to be extracted. ******************************************* The Books teach Darkness was, at first of all, And Brahm, sole meditating in that Night: Look not for Brahm and the Beginning there! Nor him, nor any light Shall any gazer see with mortal eyes, Or any searcher know by mortal mind, VEIL AFTER VEIL WILL LIFT -- BUT THERE MUST BE VEIL UPON VEIL BEHIND. * * * * * PRAY NOT! THE DARKNESS WILL NOT BRIGHTEN! ASK NOUGHT FROM THE SILENCE, FOR IT CANNOT SPEAK! Vex not your mournful minds with pious pains!=20 If ye lay bound upon the wheel of change, And no way were of breaking from the chain, The Heart of boundless Being is a curse, The Soul of Things fell Pain.=20 Ye are not bound! the Soul of Things is sweet, The Heart of Being is celestial rest; Stronger than woe is will: that which was Good Doth pass to Better -- Best. LIGHT ON THE PATH OF ASIA BOOK 8 ******************************************** THESE instructions are for those ignorant of the dangers of the lower IDDHI= . (1) He who would hear the voice of Nada, (2) "the Soundless Sound," and comprehend it, he has to learn the nature of Dharana. (3) Having become indifferent to objects of perception, the pupil must seek out the Rajah =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Foot notes (2). The "Soundless Voice," or the "Voice of the Silence." Literally perhap= s this would read "Voice in the Spiritual Sound," as Nada is the equivalent word in Sanskrit, for the Senzar term. (3). Dharana, is the intense and perfect concentration of the mind upon som= e one interior object, accompanied by complete abstraction from everything pertaining to the external Universe, or the world of the senses. -------------------------------------------- 2 of the senses, the Thought-Producer, he who awakes illusion. The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple slay the Slayer. For-- When to himself his form appears unreal, as do on waking all the forms he sees in dreams; When he has ceased to hear the many, he may discern the ONE-the inner sound which kills the outer.=20 Then only, not till then, shall he forsake the region of Asat, the false, t= o come unto the realm of Sat, the true. Before the soul can see, the Harmony within must be attained, and fleshly eyes be rendered blind to all illusion. Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as deaf to roarings as to whispers, to cries of bellowing elephants as to the silvery buzzing o= f the golden fire-fly. 3 BEFORE THE SOUL CAN COMPREHEND AND MAY REMEMBER, SHE MUST UNTO THE SILENT SPEAKER BE UNITED JUST AS THE FORM TO WHICH THE CLAY IS MODELLED, IS FIRST UNITED WITH THE POTTER'S MIND. FOR THEN THE SOUL WILL HEAR, AND WILL REMEMBER. AND THEN TO THE INNER EAR WILL SPEAK-- THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE And say: If thy Soul smiles while bathing in the Sunlight of thy Life; if thy Soul sings within her chrysalis of flesh and matter; if thy Soul weeps inside he= r castle of illusion; if thy Soul struggles to break the silver thread that binds her to the MASTER; (1) know, O Disciple, thy Soul is of the earth. When to the World's turmoil thy budding =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Foot note (1). The "great Master" is the term used by Lanoos or Chelas to indicate one's "HIGHER SELF." It is the equivalent of Avalokitesvara, and the same a= s Adi-Budha with the Buddhist Occultists, ATMAN the "Self" (the Higher Self) with the Brahmins, and CHRISTOS with the ancient Gnostics. ----------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas PS I sek to understand this. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48@optusnet.com.au [mailto:cassilva48@optusnet.com.au]=20 Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 9:10 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE: THAT LOVE Dear Dallas, These were notes taken at a TS meeting many years ago. PRE MANIFESTATION - PRALAYA - laya state. In this state Cosmic Ideation is non existent. Cosmic substance is resolved back into its primary state of abstract "potential" objectivity. Manifestation in potential. WE SEE ONLY THE EFFECTS OF THE MANIFESTATION, WE CAN NEVER SEE THE MANIFESTOR. UNMANIFESTED - COSMIC IDEATION NON EXISTENT. THE BOUNDLESS, IMMUTABLE PRINCIPLE, PARABRAHMAN TAT - THE BOUNDLESS, THE LIMITLESS : PARA=3D BEYOND IT IS =3D BENESS. This is what I refer to when I speak of 'NOT THAT. This, according to my notes, KNOWS ONLY ITSELF. From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 16:46:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63168 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 00:46:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 00:46:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 00:46:48 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-215-103-165.jvece7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.103.165]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681BA33F02 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:46:46 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:46:40 -0200 Message-ID: <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:46:40 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bart wrote:=20 Are you referring to his criminal convictions as "hoaxes"? The people=20 who were hospitalized by his bioterrorism didn't consider it to be a=20 "hoax". ...........................................................................= ...................................................... Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what he said, there is nothing I can say, but if yo= u did you would not believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by = its fruits. If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "The Mme= . Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is similar...one w= ill think she was a liar and a fraud. Not that I want to use this list to promulgate any aplogies about Osho =B4s= work, but I tried to read first about him from many sources, and then, wha= t he wrote and I got impressed. One book that I read about his success, talks about his secretary when apa= rently took away and decamped with all the org=B4s funds and also maitained= those secret labs inside the mandir. When the police came to the mandir Osho opened his doors to all the agents = and even he was not aware of that " paralell government " of his "disciples= " interests. The intoxication was real Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody wh= o always talked openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody a= ppreciates it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a cri= minal. Principally with the long time tradition of USA being scared about t= errorism and the control of " suspect" people. If you seek you=B4ll find the true story. It is in your right to keep this simplified version in mind, the choice is = yours. He never practised bioterrorism. Not him.=20 That is what I believe and I had to say. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho krishtar wrote: > I once asked the group some views about the writings of Osho, which > are so popular and well read today. I admit that there had been a lot > of hoaxes about his image but if we pay attention to his points of > view it is very interesting and he got a brilliant and poetical way > at looking and observing this world. Are you referring to his criminal convictions as "hoaxes"? The people=20 who were hospitalized by his bioterrorism didn't consider it to be a=20 "hoax". Bart =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 06 17:45:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50136 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 01:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 01:45:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 01:45:20 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-215-103-165.jvece7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.103.165]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6903486 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 23:45:17 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Mon, 06 Dec 2004 23:44:59 -0200 Message-ID: <018601c4dbfe$5c5580a0$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 23:44:58 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Fw: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bart wrote: " Uncritical acceptance is not understanding." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Is this a law? IMO it depends on what "understanding" means for us. It depends on the frui= ts that we ladle in our life for being a critic person. Do we learn more being a criticizer? Do we help others being thus critic? You said we have to stabilish a criticism about one thing to understanding = it. So the Rishis and true yogis didn=B4t understand anything because they just= contemplate with no idea or critic in mind and that=B4s is what they teach= us up today. And what if we just try to look at it with no preconceived, just as they di= d? I gess observation has greater worth than criticizing. Many members of this list just sit and watch. Observing teaches more than criticizing. When we put our perceptions into words, they start loosing the essence. The less we feed our mind with words and concepts, the easier it is to unde= rstand, to realise things. Over-charged mind is like a truck with overload. Difficult to control. Once we cannot control it, how can we truly realise the drift of things? Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:25 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB on THEOSOPHISTS krishtar wrote: > Semantics, concepts, correction, criticism. > Accept, understand, tolerate, consent.. > So many words, one for each occasion. > Frankly, we all have different levels of understanding. Uncritical acceptance is not understanding. Bart =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 06 21:13:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47318 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 05:13:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 05:13:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 05:13:19 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbXf4-0007UI-QH for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:13:19 -0500 Message-ID: <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:13:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba52cf2ed0768e3e5cc50d78590bf3b2d9f83aa984341be17f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what > he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not > believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The > Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is > similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to Blavatsky. > government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real > Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked > openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates > it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a > criminal. So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised > bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him to be a holy man: http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html Bart From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 07 01:31:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75942 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 09:31:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 09:31:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 09:31:37 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [200.102.28.39]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9A93494 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 07:31:35 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:31:14 -0200 Message-ID: <001601c4dc3f$7eeb0b80$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 07:31:14 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bart=20 As usual these exchange of roughness and harshness leads no nothing. There is nothing anyone can say to those who don=B4t want to believe. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho krishtar wrote: > Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what > he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not > believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "The > Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is > similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud.=20 Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer=20 review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really=20 were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to=20 Blavatsky. > government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real > Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked > openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates > it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a > criminal.=20 So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised > bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him=20 to be a holy man: http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html Bart =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Tue Dec 07 08:17:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 43152 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 16:17:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 16:17:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 16:17:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Dec 2004 16:16:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Dec 2004 16:16:55 -0000 X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72517 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41510.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.93) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 4136 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Dec 2004 15:55:09 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=kzpehqRs+xUYdAvpqAcb/3IFk0fJKC7UtmBU8lHOnmtWKkdcGsdPgvsYhqS/CPDKSGTDjJ2MWqWS+pfsw6FCtcmc/gY9mK6ZM/EvqFNjeYNKs6sr/LDs/D2ikE4+TNXWcYV1HgdSqURKDZE1IkOaDLhlV4wJk5NmiIVhk8pPbSA= ; Message-ID: <20041207155509.4134.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41510.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:55:09 PST Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 07:55:09 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001601c4dc3f$7eeb0b80$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.93 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -- and Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 07 Dec 2004 16:16:22 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.37 Hello, Everyone. =20 I am Loreto and had been lurking reading, gleaning whatever" wisdom" there = is that I can find in the discussions and putting things that don''t matter= to me to the trash bin. =20 Unfortunately, Bart, kristar is right. Whatever wisdom it is that you tryi= ng to share with everyone (I hope you are; and not just simply ranting and = raving about everything and almost everyone that you do not agree with) is= lost in all the ranting, raving and sanity-questioning of almost everyone = that you don't agree with, that I see in your posts. =20 A situation that may be unlike Osho's but nevertheless, energetically, very= much alike -- the negative outbalanced the positive (and I hope there are = some that I probably missed). =20 So much so that I have decided, starting yesterday, to just direct to emai= l Trash whatever comes from "Bart Lidofsky" ". =20 Thanks; and bowing out for the moment. =20 Loreto krishtar wrote: Bart=20 As usual these exchange of roughness and harshness leads no nothing. There is nothing anyone can say to those who don=B4t want to believe. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho krishtar wrote: > Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what > he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not > believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "The > Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is > similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud.=20 Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer=20 review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really=20 were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to=20 Blavatsky. > government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real > Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked > openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates > it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a > criminal.=20 So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised > bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him=20 to be a holy man: http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html Bart Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Tue Dec 07 09:41:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19601 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 17:41:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 17:41:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 17:41:05 -0000 Received: from 3e6b1f73.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.31.115] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1CbjKg-0007yB-2y for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 18:41:02 +0100 Message-ID: <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:43:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.11 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The >> Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 07 11:48:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35833 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 19:48:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 19:48:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 19:48:04 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.11.83.55]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4C53493 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:48:01 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:47:50 -0200 Message-ID: <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:47:50 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a book= store months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books=B4 list for a beginner...= yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn=B4t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to find= someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind and= with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for the= truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I woul= dn=B4t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch ( smile)= , I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a bit ann= oyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied impo= rtant positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over here but in many = places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movem= ent but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who seem tha= t daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted when = a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thoug= ht with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important = matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others= on=20 a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional = and=20 intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or= =20 Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be=20 avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach= =20 the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would=20 arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "Th= e >> Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >=20 =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Tue Dec 07 12:13:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80199 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 20:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 20:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx02.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 20:13:05 -0000 Received: from 3e6b1f73.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.31.115] helo=khidr) by mx02.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Cblhc-0004h5-2e for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:12:52 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 21:15:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.12 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secondly "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a policy, which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large library (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see if they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwaita and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares to read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books´ list for a beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn´t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to find someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind and with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for the truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I wouldn´t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch ( smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over here but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who seem that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The >> Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Tue Dec 07 12:13:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48862 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2004 20:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2004 20:13:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2004 20:13:35 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.137] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Cblmf-0005AY-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 01:48:05 +0530 Message-ID: <005301c4dc99$31265800$8968013d@k1> To: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:42:46 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.73 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Work of the Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: anand_gholap_1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit www.AnandGholap.net Below are passages that explain to some extent work of the Masters for humanity. " They aid, in countless ways, the progress of humanity. From the highest sphere they shed down light and life on all the world, that may be taken up and assimilated, as freely as the sunshine, by all who are receptive enough to take it in. As the physical world lives by the life of God, focused by the sun, so does the spiritual world live by that same life, focused by the Occult Hierarchy. Next, the Masters specially connected with religions use these religions as reservoirs into which they pour spiritual energy, to be distributed to the faithful in each religion through the duly appointed "means of grace". Next comes the great intellectual work, wherein the Masters send out thought-forms of high intellectual power to be caught up by men of genius, assimilated by them and given out to the world; on this level also they send out their wishes to their disciples, notifying them of the tasks to which they should set their hands. Then comes the work in the lower mental world, the generation of the thought-forms which influence the concrete mind and guide it along useful lines of activity in this world, and the teaching of those who are living in the heavenly world. Then the large activities of the intermediate world, the helping of the so-called dead, the general direction and supervision of the teaching of the younger pupils and the sending of aid in numberless cases of need. In the physical world the watching of the tendencies of events, the correction and neutralizing, as far as law permits, of evil cur rents, the constant balancing of the forces that work for and against evolution, the strengthening of the good, the weakening of the evil. In conjunction with the Angels of the Nations also they work, guiding the spiritual forces as the others guide the material, choosing. and rejecting actors in the great Drama, supplying needful impulses in the right direction. " Full book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Masters-AB.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 07 17:49:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99985 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 01:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 01:49:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m22.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.3) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 01:49:10 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.158.45823eef (3866); Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:48:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <158.45823eef.2ee7b786@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:48:54 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.3 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theosophical Question -- re: HPB prophesy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 To Koshek, Dallas, et al, My response is below. LHM In a message dated 11/30/04 7:51:31 AM, aerosophia@yahoo.com writes: >Hello Leon, > >I have a question. > >Long ago I read somewhere, and I can only paraphrase, HPB that the "final >verification of the ancient wisdom teachings will not come from theosophists, > - but from men of science." > >Now I've been looking for the quote but haven't been able to find it. Perhaps >HPB said something completely different but I am remembering it wrong. > > >Any clue? > >Koshek I remember reading something like that, too -- but I don't recall where. Actually, I think she said that scientists (and particularly those of physiology and biochemistry) will eventually come to the theosophical view all by themselves. And, when they do, it will be the final proof and verification of the teachings that the ordinary man will have to believe... Or something to that effect. (Maybe Dallas can give us the exact quote or quotes.) That day should arrive soon... When science comes up with a proof of the current Superstring/M-theories that postulate the same (3 + 7) multidimensional hyperspace (coadunate but not consubstantial) fields that theosophy talks about -- and links them to consciousness (awareness, will, etc.) that is inherent in the zero-point centers of those fields. Those developments will parallel imminent (if not current) new discoveries about the "field information" nature of the DNA code that forms the hologram of the body image -- reflected coenergetically through the next higher hyperspace field (Astral body) -- that tells the proteins made in the physical body where to go. This, I suppose, is where "physiology" and "chemistry" (which is also a part of physics) comes in... And will be the final clincher linking all the hard sciences (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.) with theosophical metaphysics -- to fulfill HPB's prophesy. My guess is that all this will come to light around the time the Mayan calendar predicts a great world change (or catastrophe) will occur of one sort or another. Let's hope it's this rather than that. :-) Best wishes, Leon From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Tue Dec 07 18:15:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99285 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 02:15:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 02:15:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-a065d23.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.254) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 02:15:14 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.86.55.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.86.55]) by pop-a065d23.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CbrM6-0000NE-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 18:15:03 -0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.289 [265.4.6]); Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:14:57 -0500 Message-ID: <001001c4dccb$b6721c60$37569904@JoeyMeredith> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 21:14:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.121.254 From: "Bill Meredith" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille Bart, Thanks for the Osho link. I hope the folks who find the time to attack you also find the time to read the essay. I have included a small section below because it speaks to the issue of "masters" --even theosophical masters --- from a perspective with which I generally am in agreement. regards, bill excerpt from http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html < Rajneesh's disciples thought they were following an authoritative "enlightened master." In reality they had been mislead by a highly fallible enlightened human animal who was still a little boy at heart. Rajneesh had not only misrepresented himself personally, but he misrepresented the phenomena of enlightenment itself. The idealized fantasy of perfect enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never existed. The universe is far too big and complex for anyone to be its "master." We are all subjects, not masters, and those who pretend to be infallible and all-knowing end up looking even more the fool in the end. "Nature does not use anything as a model. It is only interested in perfecting the species. It is trying to create perfect species and not perfect beings." U.G. Krishnamurti The famous sages of old seem perfect to us now only because they have become larger than life myths. The long passage of time has allowed their followers to effectively cover up their guru's flaws, just as Rajneesh disciples are currently rewriting and censoring history to cover up Rajneesh's great failings. Rajneesh was never more infallible than any other human being. What we call enlightenment is not a cure-all for faults and frailties that cling to human animals even after they achieve maximum possible consciousness, which is perhaps a more realistic definition of the term 'enlightenment.' The contradiction of corruption and enlightenment can occur because the individual is only the lens of enlightenment, not the source of cosmic power itself. The enlightened only allow universal energy to pass through them unblocked, untouched, and uncontaminated. In a way no one ever really becomes enlightened personally. Enlightenment happens at the place where you are standing but you cannot own it or possess it. All the words of so-called enlightened men come from the human brain which interprets the phenomena of enlightenment like a translator. The words do not come from the enlightenment itself. By definition enlightenment cannot speak. It is absolutely silent and beyond any need to speak. > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.6 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 07 18:31:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7783 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 02:31:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 02:31:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 02:31:01 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CbrbZ-0001J3-5D for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:31:01 -0500 Message-ID: <41B66767.8020401@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:31:03 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <001601c4dc3f$7eeb0b80$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <001601c4dc3f$7eeb0b80$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbae47ff961a09a4f098a4dd5911f1dc93d667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > As usual these exchange of roughness and harshness leads no nothing. > There is nothing anyone can say to those who don´t want to believe. I know. But I try anyway. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 07 18:47:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22347 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 02:47:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 02:47:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 02:47:55 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cbrru-0002K3-3m for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:47:54 -0500 Message-ID: <41B66B5D.2010706@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:47:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041207155509.4134.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041207155509.4134.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbae47ff961a09a4f0952bc33847f28eb29a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -- and Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Towers1209 wrote: > Unfortunately, Bart, kristar is right. Whatever wisdom it is that > you trying to share with everyone (I hope you are; and not just > simply ranting and raving about everything and almost everyone that > you do not agree with) is lost in all the ranting, raving and > sanity-questioning of almost everyone that you don't agree with, that > I see in your posts. Can you give an example of any "ranting, raving and sanity-questioning" I have done? Bart From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Tue Dec 07 21:37:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13566 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 05:37:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 05:37:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41506.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.89) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 05:37:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 85595 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Dec 2004 05:37:36 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Q/xfek9XroDHhR1wcHR5apiLL0ECLMaAssrOBlMXRPHFLHLhnKSAXJ3vrBR/aqUr2T6ifi6RR1UGdDwV9v2KbEqaAiTss7BX23a0WmJjHTMwBL2MyOIyZr4D/zntswBNVWTGdLgTJJYMYfQG7TiCPp4DhhUCVA/wiF6usZzhl94= ; Message-ID: <20041208053736.85593.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.56.250.202] by web41506.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:37:36 PST Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 21:37:36 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.89 From: Pedro Oliveira Subject: Hodgson Report X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira Is there an online edition of the full text of the(1885) SPR "Report of the Committee Appointed to Investigate Phenomena Connected with The Theosophical Society", also known as the "Hodgson Report"? So far I have only found critical studies of the Report, but not the Report itself. Any information is appreciated. Pedro __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 07 22:32:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62123 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 06:32:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 06:32:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m27.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.8) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 06:32:11 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1ac.2d47e52c (3866); Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:32:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ac.2d47e52c.2ee7f9e0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:32:00 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.8 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Creation of the Cosmos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Speaking in the scientific and metaphysical "Language of this Age"...=20 Actually, from a purely scientifically valid metaphysical POV, and=20 disregarding all the mystical anthropomorphic references to a "personalized= " LOGOS or=20 "GOD" idea... If we look at the diagrams of the "woven" spheres (*globes*)= =20 within spheres within spheres, etc., (See web pages below) that emanate fro= m the=20 "whirling" energy ("Laya Point" or "spinergy") of the LOGOS (source of the= =20 "WORD," Verbum, or *holographic vibrational interference patterns* containi= ng all=20 WISDOM and KNOWLEDGE)... And, considering that the ABSOLUTE (outside of all= =20 metric time and space) *Zero Point* of such Cosmic origin is the rootless r= oot of=20 CONSCIOUSNESS or SPIRIT) -- we can see how simple (and impersonal) it all i= s.=20 (*---* =3D italics)=20=20 But first, we must understand that; Since any spherical or "global" space h= as=20 three *lines of direction* (N-S, E-W, Up-Down) that cross perpendicular to= =20 each other at the center... Therefore, the primal global "spinergy" at any= =20 zero-point has three primary poles or directions of rotation. (However, he= re, for=20 purposes of simplifying our visualization, we are only considering one axis= of=20 such rotation.) In actuality, each LOGO (of the *three* LOGOS) has referen= ce=20 to one of these polar directions. And, each such polar direction has three= =20 *zero points* of reference, one, common to their crossing centers, and two = at=20 the extreme ends of their extension and termination in infinity. Thus, the= re=20 are seven points in all -- which are the basis of the "Diamond Heart" geome= try=20 as well the seven "rays" of consciousness or "Lineage's" that represent the= =20 true fundamental metaphysical reality. See the 6-diamond (UniOmniForm) cry= stal=20 diagram (which can be infinitely divided or expanded into smaller or larger= =20 diamonds without changing its overall octahedron shape) at:=20 http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/solwldcrystposter.h= tml This is why Plato quoting Pythagorus said, "The universe geometrizes."=20 (Escher couldn't have said it better, although he certainly knew how to ill= ustrate=20 it. :-) We must also consider such "Consciousness" represented by the zero-point=20 itself, as pure [abstract] and *impersonal* AWARENESS as well as the link t= o=20 WILL... And, thereby avoid personalizing Spirit on the three higher monadic= =20 (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) or *logoic* planes that are above or preceding the plan= e of the=20 lower Astral mind or KAMA-MANAS.=20=20 Therefore, Consciousness as *awareness* is simply the unconditioned=20 *witness*... And *will* is the impersonal Force inherent in the "spinergy" = that can=20 only be applied through the action of *desire* focussed through the MIND --= =20 whether it be that of the universal MAHAT or Buddhi-Manas (higher Mind) or = the=20 individualized reflection of it in the Kama-Manas (lower mind) = =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 However, we must not be confused, since from a metaphysical point of view,= =20 i.e., looking at it from the point source within, outward -- this entire sy= stem=20 is the reverse of how the pseudo theosophists (and of course, all=20 theologists:-) see it (from the outside looking in)... Since, as HPB pointe= d out and as=20 both Hermes and Plato explained it (and some later writers missed) -- the i= nside=20 is the outside and the outside is the inside. And, therefore, the *I AM* or= =20 Self of any so called "God" up to the highest LOGO is equivalent to the *I = AM*=20 or self of any fully conscious Human being.=20 This *involutional* process (before *Chaos* leads to *Cosmos* and the=20 universe of forms begin its *evolution") -- ruled by fundamental LAWS of=20 multidimensional geometry -- is perfectly illustrated, and can be easily vi= sualized, if we=20 follow the Mobius path of the spiral vortex that forms each FIELD or PLANE = of=20 consciousness in successive fractal iterations, both outwardly and inwardly= ,=20 simultaneously, like bubbles within bubbles within bubbles, etc. Thus, fro= m=20 the scientific POV, the Universe both expands and contracts, while forming = both=20 the "dark matter" and the "light matter," simultaneously.=20=20 Therefore, on any plane or spherical surface, the spiritual field or ATMA i= s=20 the closest to the Zero-point of any form (and thus hidden within the space= =20 between the primal "Atoms" or fundamental particles of both *Astral* and=20 *Physical* space)... And, at the same time, stretches the furthest infinite= distance=20 from the Central zero or (laya) point of Cosmic origin... Thus, *containing= *=20 and, simultaneously inwardly supporting every particle and form within its= =20 overall circumference on every "coadunate but NOT consubstantial" PLANE of= =20 consciousness.=20=20 *Personalization* or personification only begins to occur on the lower plan= es=20 of both the *light* and *dark* Cosmic levels -- after, in our visible=20 space-time, the first seven DHYAN CHOHANS appear on the *light* side... And= , we must=20 *not* imagine such "personalization" both on the higher Cosmic MONAD planes= =20 that comprise the first three LOGOS (Note: the word "Logos" is plural) or o= n the=20 planes of the "Dhyan Chohans" that are part of the *Third Logos* (our=20 physical metric space-time). Only, when these "Chohans" are incarnated in m= ankind,=20 can they be personified.=20 Note, also, that the *information* or KNOWLEDGE these primal GLOBES carry (= in=20 their holographic interference patterns of vibrational energies) on their=20 surfaces, represent the noumenal *matrices* or "Genes"of all the *individua= l*=20 forms that appear on every plane. (See my previous posts for an explanatio= n=20 of how the dual rays of primal force that weave every globe, like balls of= =20 twisted yarn, forms these spiraling genetic *ladders* that are -- as above,= so=20 below -- analogous to the DNA molecular ladders of amino acid bases on the= =20 physical plane.) Also, see DNA pictures at: http://academy.d20.co.edu/kadets/lundberg/dna.html Note also, that the WISDOM of the LOGOS is the noumenal *root* of these=20 phenomenal patterns which are based on its immutable LAWS of KARMA (cycles = and=20 periodicity) that govern their actions-reactions... And, such WISDOM is the= =20 inherent nature of the "Whirling" or *Spinergy* of the Primal *Zero Laya Po= int*=20 origin of each of the LOGOS (or primal triune Monads on the Cosmic Spiritua= l,=20 Astral and Physical planes). HPB called this "spinergy" the "Abstract Moti= on of=20 Absolute Space" which is prior to the manifestation of the LOGOS or any=20 substantial *being* following them, in accord with fundamental law... And, = guided=20 only later by the conscious *light* Dhyan Chohans, "Builders," "Cosmocreato= rs,"=20 "Architects of the Universe," or "Great Masons" -- with the help of both=20 *impersonal* MAHAT (Cosmic mind) and FOHAT (Cosmic force).=20 The fundamental error in the interpretation below this dissertation (not to= =20 say that their general overview is entirely wrong) is the personalization o= r=20 personification of the LOGOS -- which leads every following writer who base= s=20 their theories on these interpretations, to make a Religion out of Theosoph= y=20 based on a Ruling Hierarchy and a carnal Messiah -- which completely denies= the=20 individuality, liberty, and free will of all *equal* human beings (as spiri= tual=20 entities), and foments the creation of a dictatorial ruling elite as Mankin= d's=20 Governmental agencies. This is the "wrong view" of most writers following= =20 HPB, such as AB, AAB, CWL. etc. who profess to reinterpret the teachings of= the=20 ancient Masters according to their personal religious beliefs that=20 anthropomorphize the higher Consciousness or Spirit of the Universal Monad = and its=20 reflection in the "Dhyan Chohans" -- who initially *guide* the building of = the=20 phenomenal universe and, ultimately become incarnated in Mankind as *Master= s* (but=20 not *rulers*). Therefore, there cannot be a "personal GOD" other than the=20 "Ray" of the Universal Consciousness that can be directly experienced withi= n each=20 of us. (Our direct zero-point center of individual awareness of Self, and,= =20 indirectly, of the reflected [coadunate or entangled] points of non local=20 sensory perception.) This implies that everything in the universe is *cons= cious* in=20 one degree or another. For an explanation of how we "see" -- go to: http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics ALL this, BTW, is fully explained in the "Secret Doctrine," for those=20 intuitive students able to read "in and around the words and between the li= nes" -- as=20 HPB clearly pointed out. To see how Einstein must have seen it, go to: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html I hope this clarifies things a bit and gives us some food for further thoug= ht. LHM Ref: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html For comparative reference to "interpretations" of post HPB theosophical=20 writers, see below quotes:=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 In a message dated 11/11/04 3:18:28 PM, AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org writes:= =20 (quoting either AB or CWL)=20 >www.AnandGholap.net > > " We have just seen that the source from which a universe proceeds >is a manifested Divine Being, to whom in the modern form of the Ancient >Wisdom the name LOGOS, or Word has been given. The name is drawn from Gree= k >Philosophy, but perfectly expresses the ancient idea, the Word which emerg= es >from the Silence, the Voice, the Sound, by which the worlds come into bein= g. >We must now trace the evolution of spirit-matter, in order that we may >understand something of the nature of the materials with which we have >to deal on the physical plane, or physical world. For it is in the=20 potentialities >wrapped up, involved, in the spirit-matter of the physical world that lies >the possibility of evolution. The whole process is an unfolding, self-move= d >from within and aided by intelligent beings without, who can retard or >quicken evolution, but cannot transcend the capacities inherent in the >materials. Some idea of these earliest stages of the world's "becoming" >is therefore necessary, although any attempt to go into minute details >would carry us far beyond the limits of such an elementary treatise as >the present. A very cursory sketch must suffice.=20 > > 2. Coming >forth from the depths of the One Existence, from the ONE beyond all though= t >and all speech, a LOGOS, by imposing on Himself a limit, circumscribing >voluntarily the range of His own Being, becomes the manifested God, and >tracing the limiting sphere of His activity thus outlines the area of His >universe. Within that sphere the universe is born, is evolved, and dies >; it lives, it moves, it has its being in Him ; its matter is His emanatio= n >; its forces and energies are currents of His Life ; He is immanent in >every atom, all-pervading, all-sustaining, all-evolving ; He is its source >and its end, its cause and its object, its centre and circumference ; it >is built on Him as its sure foundation, it breathes in Him as its encircli= ng >space ; He is in everything and everything in Him. Thus have the sages >of the Ancient Wisdom taught us of the beginning of the manifested worlds. > > > 3. From >the same source we learn of the Self-unfolding of the LOGOS into a threefo= ld >form ; the First LOGOS, the Root of all being ; from Him the Second,=20 manifesting >the two aspects of Life and Form, the primal duality, making the two poles >of nature between which the web of the universe is to be woven - Life-Form= , >Spirit-Matter, Positive-Negative, Active-Receptive, Father-Mother of the >worlds. Then the Third LOGOS, the Universal Mind, that in which all=20 archetypically >exists, the source of beings, the fount of fashioning energies, the treasu= re >house in which are stored up all the archetypal forms which are to be brou= ght >forth and elaborated in lower kinds of matter during the evolution of the >universe. These are the fruits of past universes, brought over as seeds >for the present.=20 > > 4. The >phenomenal spirit and matter of any universe are finite in their extent >and transitory in their duration, but the roots of spirit and matter are >eternal. The root of matter (Mul=E2prakriti ) has been said by a profound >writer to be visible to the LOGOS as a veil thrown over the One existence, >the supreme Brahman (Parabrahman) -to use the ancient name.=20 > > 5. It >is this "veil" which the LOGOS assumes for the purpose of manifestation, >using it for the self-imposed limit which makes activity possible. From >this He elaborates the matter of His universe, being Himself its informing= , >guiding, and controlling life. ( Hence He is called "The Lord of M=E2y=E2" >in some Eastern Scriptures, M=E2y=E2, or illusion, being the principle of = form; >form is regarded as illusory, from its transitory nature and perpetual >transformations, the life which expresses itself under the veil of form >being the reality).=20 > > 6. Of >what occurs on the two higher planes of the universe, the seventh and sixt= h, >we can form but the haziest conception. The energy of the LOGOS as whirlin= g >motion of inconceivable rapidity "digs holes in space" in this root matter= , >and this vortex of life encased in a film of the root of matter is the >primary atom; these and their aggregations, spread throughout the universe= , >form all the subdivisions of spirit-matter of the highest or seventh plane= . >The sixth plane is formed by some of the countless myriads of these primar= y >atoms, setting up a vortex in the coarsest aggregations of their own plane= , >and this primary atom en-walled with spiral strands of the coarsest=20 combinations >of the seventh plane becomes the finest unit of spirit-matter, or atom >of the sixth plane. These sixth plane atoms and their endless combinations >form the subdivisions of the spirit-matter of the sixth plane.=20 > > 7. The >sixth-plane-atom, in its turn, sets up a vortex in the coarsest aggregatio= ns >of its own plane, and, with these coarsest aggregations as a limiting wall= , >becomes the finest unit of spirit-matter, or atom, of the fifth plane. >Again, these fifth-plane atoms, and their combinations form the subdivisio= ns >of the spirit-matter of the fifth plane. The process is repeated to form >successively the spirit-matter of the fourth, the third, the second, and >the first planes. These are the seven great regions of the universe, so >far as their material constituents are concerned. A clearer idea of them >will be gained by analogy when we come to master the modifications of the >spirit-matter of our own physical world.=20 > > 8. (The >student may find the conception clearer if he thinks of the fifth plane >atoms as Atma ; those of the fourth plane as Atma enveloped in Buddhi-matt= er >; those of the third plane as Atma enveloped in Buddhi and Manas-matter >; those of the second plane as Atma enveloped in Buddhi-Manas- and=20 Kama-matter >; those of the lowest as Atma enveloped in Buddhi-Manas-Kama and=20 Sth=FBla-matter. >Only the outermost is active in each, but the inner are there, though late= nt, >ready to come into activity on the upward arc of evolution). " > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Dec 08 01:43:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33850 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 09:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 09:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 09:43:39 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1b9.8526b08 (3866); Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:43:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1b9.8526b08.2ee826c4@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:43:32 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.36 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: solipcism vs materialism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Reference is made to the following articles which postulates a new scientific unified field theory that was pointed out as appearing to be getting close to occult and Eastern metaphysics as well as to a "Theory of Everything." My comments are below. http://www.aetherpress.com/physics.htm http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/physics.html ===================================== I read the article and it seems to make logical (if not scientific or metaphysical :-) sense. But there are still holes that aren't accounted for -- since the writer doesn't say what the "Gyron" is made of, and accepts Newton's premise that it was "created" by God. It also leaves open the connection between consciousness (awareness, will) and matter as well as between mind and brain (the binding problem) -- that any completely true "Theory of Everything" (TOE) must take into consideration. So, essentially, this theory has no real or consistent validity with respect to the fundamental principles of theosophical metaphysics or to the "dependently arisen" metaphysics of Buddhism, which, as my theory of ABC confirms, indicates that the primal origination or "causeless cause" prior to manifestation of the Cosmos at the big bang, is simply the "spinergy" force (The abstract motion or angular momentum of the absolute zero point that is turning, i.e., "spinning" on itself at infinite velocities on an infinite number of axes with zero resistance)... That point and its spinergy, on analysis (since the zero-point has no dimensionality in itself) -- is nowhere and everywhere, and both "empty" (of form) and "full" (of abstract motion or primal force). It's unfortunate that science can't get a handle on such perpetual "abstract motion" circling around a stationary dimensionless point that can, at the same time be everywhere within any spatial metric... But, nevertheless, it follows, that this "laya" point and its surrounding "spinergy"must be the ineffable source of both consciousness and matter... With the zero-point itself, most likely the direct eternal source of both awareness and intent or will... And with the surrounding spinergy, the coenergetic root of all coadunate but not consubstantial fields and forces, along with the basis of the fundamental laws of physics, electricity, thermodynamics, etc. -- as well as the noumenal source of all holographic information representing the memory, knowledge, and wisdom of the universal mind, including all the holographic encoding of all possible universal forms, beings, etc., experienced or evolved in previous cycles of Cosmic existence's or during prior awakenings, involution's, and evolutions, and projected in all possible future cycles of Cosmic existence (whose actual realization would depend on the actions of conscious living beings in any present time). Therefore, there cannot be any "empty" space or "absolute vacuum" between those points and the fields surrounding them (that emanate and involve from the primal "laya" point). The author apparently assumes that the space between the Gyrons (considered as the "fundamental particles") is empty -- which cannot be true according to both the logic above as well as the fundamental principles. In addition, all of modern science recognizes that the "vacuum" of space is broiling with energies constantly coming in and out of physical existence. Does not his indicate that such energies may originate in the invisible and non measurable higher order hyperspace fields postulated by string theory? Going back further or deeper into the higher order phases of these coenergetic fields, we cannot avoid ending up at the zero-point spinergy that is the source of them all... With both the laws of symmetry and conservation still holding true. If we can intuitively see that the (non linear) force emanates from the zero-laya point into non metric dimensional (zero diameter) lines of linear motional energy (substance or mass) that involves cyclically and fractally to form the woven circumferences of all the fields of matter starting with the initial triune universal monad -- which descends internally (as fractal divisions) from near infinite frequency phases to near zero frequency phases (our metric space time continuum) -- we will understand that the infinite bubbles (globes) within bubbles within bubbles, ad infinitum, is the manner in which the primal universe expands and contracts simultaneously and steps down fractally through the seven fold fields of consciousness that, by analogy and correspondence (as above, so below), surround and interpenetrate (in coadunation but not in consubstantiality) every particle, or form in both the metaphysical (3 higher fields) and the physical (4 lower fields) universe. All these fields, of course, being of a material or substantial nature -- although varying in degree of substantiality, depending on their particular frequency-energy-mass order or phase. Since time is integrally related to these fields as a vector of duration tied intimately to the 3-vectors of globular dimensionality of metric space, we must, as Einstein did, presume we live (as physical beings) in a fundamentally 4-dimensional (directional) space-time continuum. Although, in light of the higher order (monadic) fields, which must include the fields of both mind and memory, this 4-dimensional directionality must also hold in those realms -- with the time constants differing radically between each plane. (Note that this theory assumes that all information is carried holographically as modulated wave interference patterns on the surfaces of the field's primary wave phase frequencies, and follow all the laws of electricity, including, symmetry, polarity, conservation, cycles and periodicity, harmony, resonance, induction, capacitance, resistance, etc.) The primal "atom" then, is that moving zero-point of infinite energy that weaves the fields that gradually gains greater density, and lower energy, as it descends to our space time continuum. See my symbolic global involutional diagrams that more or less consolidate both Eastern and Western scientific philosop hies, at: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif Therefore, the moving (and still spinning) zero-points of our metric space-time (spinning at a lower "phase" of energy/frequency than those of the astral space-time) can be considered as somewhat equivalent to the "Gyron," It is these spinning points that, starting on the spiritual level, successively form the more and more substantial "Superstrings" of energy that weave and create the "membranes" of the surfaces of all the descending fields of consciousness. It is the fundamental vibrations on these surfaces (woven out of dual spiraling lines of positive and negative energy) that, in turn, create the "strings" between them (analogous to the DNA ladder) that are the roots of all the "atoms" or fundamental particles on each of these levels. i.e.; It is the vibrational frequency/energy phase order differences of such strings that become the different particles on all of these space-time continuums -- which we might broadly separate into the four coadunate but not consubstantial worlds, of (1) physical forms, (2) astral forms, (3) mental forms and (4) spiritual forms... All, connected ("entangled") together through their common origin from the primal zero-point spinergy. Thus, accounting for the non locality of consciousness, as well as all experiential psychic phenomena and psychic powers expressed or latent in man. Thus, the mathematics of all this (from the limited objective-scientific point of view) would be much the same as in superstring/M-brane theories, and also entirely consistent with the merger of both relativity and quantum theories into a Unified Field Theory of Everything. (I'm not a mathematician and can only describe this ontology from an intuitive, imaginative, as well as a studied topological geometric and coenergetic electrical point of view.) As Einstein said, "I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." In this metaphysical view, taken scientifically, we must assume that the Ether or Aether is the higher order frequency phase spectrum of the Astral field (part of the 6, 10 or more hyperspace fields postulated by string theory as well as Eastern metaphysics as, "fields of consciousness") that are hidden (in the Planck distance) between the quantum particles of matter on the lower physical plane (our visible universe). Thus the speed of light is only limited to "C" in our metric space-time... In the so called Astral-mental realms, that speed would be much higher -- since its frequency-energy phase order is in the next higher octaves above the metric physical plane and its EM fields. Thus, the inner light we see in our mind's eye when awake or while dreaming, which is in an even higher order field at the upper or deeper hyperspace end, is not the same "light" that falls on our retinas... And thus, the inner light image changes appear instantaneous to our sense perception. This explains how the sequential memories of an entire lifetime, without missing a beat, can pass before our inner eye in a few seconds -- as reported by those who have experienced near or after death states. Such higher fields, then, being closer to the primal spiritual field, and thus closer to the primal laya point (that is immovable) would also account for inertia -- since the lower order fields would have to move through the higher order fields which would, through frictional resistance, produce "drag" -- similar to the way denser material moves through air or water. This also accounts for Einstein's observation that both time and physical dimension (in the direction of motion) contract as a physical mass approaches the speed of light. Why? Because such mass (including the photon itself) approaches the static zero-point between the lower physical field and the astral field, or ether -- where an energy-mass phase change must occur. It's the etheric drag, then, that prevents physical light from exceeding "C" velocity, and why it disappears when it approaches the event horizon of a black hole of near infinite mass. We might also consider that the photon is the first particle expressed when the original spiral Superstring involves into the physical matter on this plane. The "singularity" at the center of a black hole would be that primal zero (laya) point instant (which is everywhere, remember) that generated this entire universe (and, possibly, an infinite number of other universes). This might mean that the zero points within such a mass as a fundamental particle (e.g., photon, electron, proton, etc.) increase their spinergy on this plane to such a degree as to go through a phase change (the next higher octave) and transform back to the zero-point spinergy of the higher plane (related to the higher frequency-energy-time phase order of that plane). This new spinergy-mass, due to such contraction, becomes so small that it is below the threshold of our senses or our physical instruments and, thus, invisible or undetectable. As said in the article, we can only see their "splashes in the Ether" when we bust a particle into smaller parts with a cyclotron. So, I think, except for the metaphor of fundamental spin, this "Gyron" (created by God) theory is somewhat at odds with the true reality. :-) But, it does show us that science, too, has a long way to go to come up with a Unified Field Theory of Everything... That, when they do find it, must include "consciousness" in their equations... And, even then, they'll have to admit that consciousness, and particularly awareness and will, can only be a priori functions of the zero-point itself -- that, besides being ineffable, is outside of all metric space-time and non metric hyperspace-time -- yet intimately connected to them in all their aspects or levels of being. Please note, that the Aether (Ether) or Astral field -- which light must travel through in the vacuum of space (that science sees as being full of "perturbations of 'zero-point energy'" coming in and out of existence) -- is NOT the Akasha or universal memory field (the so called "Akashic Record" of the occultists) -- which, as I see it, is the initial "primordial field" related to the zero-point spinergy, out of which all the 7 fold "substantial" fields of consciousness fractally involve and descend from spiritual to physical matter. I hope all this gives us some further food for thought, as we try to find a universal theory of both consciousness and matter that will satisfy all disciplines of scientific and philosophical studies and thinking. Best wishes, Leon Maurer From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 08 01:54:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23266 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 09:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 09:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 09:54:51 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-101-197-214.fnsce7007.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.101.197.214]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AD633E99 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:54:47 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:53:38 -0200 Message-ID: <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:53:38 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Morten Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying t= hat books under the name Idries Shah are for=20 everyone."? _______________________________________ I am used to reading on the Adwaita philolosophy, such as Vivekananda=B4s, = some Patanjali=B4s sutras , some excerpts from the sage Ramana Maharshi, S= hankara...but no serious compromises of a real study. There are, IMO, three instances in the path: to read for information only, = to read and understand and the other, the main task of the seeker, to pract= ise. The practise of Adwaita is limited by our level of conscience ( or ignoranc= e...) As far as we are still living on the mind realms, we are still just reading= about duality in books which preach non-duality. It is relatively funny. I gess there is a hat-size for each size of head...But this level of books = are for helping to get rid of ignorance. If you meant this, it is not a book for any person, is for those who want t= o incorporate elements for an higher inner seek. When I was young I used to get satisfied by the explanations of church book= s...then with spiritist books, now, things change and the search is differe= nt. Regards and many thanks for the help on Idries Shah books! ______________________________________ I agree with you and say with my own words what i understanding of what you= said: It is possible to dicuss Osho from a Theosophical view, but analise his con= troverses and defend prejudices produces no fruits. I think he was a sage in many of his lectures and concentrates many interes= ting views. Who has ever told where wisdom is? It=B4s almost everywhere. We must look f= or it with an open mind. ______________________________________________________________ Krishtar Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for=20 everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secondl= y=20 "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a policy= ,=20 which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large librar= y=20 (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see i= f=20 they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwaita= =20 and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares t= o=20 read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a=20 bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books=B4 list for a=20 beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn=B4t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to fi= nd=20 someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind an= d=20 with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for th= e=20 truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I=20 wouldn=B4t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch (= =20 smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a= =20 bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even=20 occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over he= re=20 but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the=20 movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who s= eem=20 that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted= =20 when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of=20 thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such=20 important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and othe= rs=20 on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotiona= l=20 and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti = or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. = ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to tea= ch the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read wha= t >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s "= The >> Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciate= s >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered h= im > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Dec 08 04:11:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45052 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 12:11:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 12:11:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 12:11:06 -0000 Received: from [216.244.6.87] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cc0er-0004nU-K8; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:11:02 -0500 To: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:10:56 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c4dd1e$fb6c4270$5706f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec795f3dbc171f5d8d3edfcfd7101ceda2e2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.87 Subject: RE: [bn-study] HPB on Herself -- teachings/Masters today and ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 8 2004 Re HPB's control of the "elementals".=20=20 You wrote in part: "your question regarding Elementals, Elementals followe= d HPB when young and when young she could not control them. After 3 years in Tibet she was able to control them." [ See S. Cranston book bio. "H P B" ] It is said that whenever an Adept incarnates he / she has to master the new personality so acquired. Master KH in MAHATMA LETTERS gives us an instanc= e of this: "Every human being contains within himself vast potentialities, and it is the duty of the adepts to surround the would-be chela with circumstances which shall enable him to take the "right-hand path," -- if he have the ability in him. We are no more at liberty to withhold the chance from a postulant than we are to guide and direct him into the proper course. At best, we can only show him after his probation period was successfully terminated -- that if he does this he will go right; if the other, wrong. But until he has passed that period, we leave him to fight out his battles as best he may; and have to do so occasionally with higher and initiated chelas such as H.P.B., once they are allowed to work in the world, that all of us more or less avoid.=20 More than that -- ....we allow our candidates to be tempted in a thousand various ways, so as to draw out the whole of their inner nature and allow i= t the chance of remaining conqueror either one way or the other. ... We were all so tested; and while a Moorad Ali -- failed -- I, succeeded. Th= e victor's crown is only for him who proves himself worthy to wear it; for hi= m who attacks Mara single handed and conquers the demon of lust and earthly passions; and not we but he himself puts it on his brow.=20 It was not a meaningless phrase of the Tathagata that "he who masters Self is greater than he who conquers thousands in battle": there is no such othe= r difficult struggle. If it were not so, adeptship would be but a cheap acquirement." M L 316 Beast wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 7:54 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] teachings/Masters today and ... Dear Mauri. In response to your question regarding Elementals, Elementals followed HPB when young and when young she could not control them. After 3 years in Tibet she was able to control them. They have no sense. They are behind all phenomenon and fakirs. A strong light can effect them. When asked, what prevents the Elementals from taking over the human kingdom, I was told that Aura keeps them away from Man. It acts as a protective shield unless the spiritual aura is darkened through materialistic tendencies, it will lose its protective abilities. Will can also determine their impact, if you become passive you open yourself to danger, as in the case of Mediums who do not have a strong enough will to protect themselves. So getting back to Crop Circles, if the elementals are behind this phenomenon, is it reasonable to accept that some intelligent force is controlling them. CUT From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 08 04:33:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93794 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 12:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 12:33:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 12:33:34 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.3.236.160]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC67C33F21 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:33:32 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.6]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 10:32:23 -0200 Message-ID: <004801c4dd21$f7e29f20$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <001001c4dccb$b6721c60$37569904@JoeyMeredith> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:32:23 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho_ Bill X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill I am reading the entire article on line and agree with many afirmations and= doubt of many too. The article excerpt you kindly included for example says " The idealized f= antasy of perfect=20 enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never=20 existed."=20 I=B4ll throw my theos books in the trash bin!(smile) _______________________________________________________ Other excerpts from the link that show the limitations of the "thinkers".Th= e authority of the articles are also questionable, but useful to see other = POV=B4s: " In my opinion, the world would be better off if most of the books written= by the famous mystics were used for fuel to keep us all warm at night. " "Meditation is basic good-clean-fun." "Objectively, by any measurement, enlightened people are as egocentric as a= nyone else." "There was no "Lord Buddha," only an enlightened Siddhartha Gautama. There= was no "Lord Jesus," only a carpenter who made extravagant claims. The on= ly way to be egoless is to physically die and not come back into this world= . If you are here, you have an ego. Do not fool yourself or allow yoursel= f to be fooled by others. " Christopher Calder +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++++++++++++ There are and there were real enlighted people in the world. I believe it. The sub-links of the mentioned link lead us to other articles of doubtful b= ackground as the claiming that if we loose the ego our brain cannot survive= and things like that prove that the people who wrote have a limited awaren= ess of what ego and personality is, he is another seeker like us, whose fal= libility is plainly possible. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Meredith=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:14 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Bart, Thanks for the Osho link. I hope the folks who find the time to attack y= ou=20 also find the time to read the essay. I have included a small section be= low=20 because it speaks to the issue of "masters" --even theosophical masters -= --=20=20 from a perspective with which I generally am in agreement. regards, bill excerpt from http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html < Rajneesh's disciples thought they were following an authoritative=20 "enlightened master." In reality they had been mislead by a highly falli= ble=20 enlightened human animal who was still a little boy at heart. Rajneesh h= ad=20 not only misrepresented himself personally, but he misrepresented the=20 phenomena of enlightenment itself. The idealized fantasy of perfect=20 enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never= =20 existed. The universe is far too big and complex for anyone to be its=20 "master." We are all subjects, not masters, and those who pretend to be= =20 infallible and all-knowing end up looking even more the fool in the end. "Nature does not use anything as a model. It is only interested in=20 perfecting the species. It is trying to create perfect species and not=20 perfect beings." U.G. Krishnamurti The famous sages of old seem perfect to us now only because they hav= e=20 become larger than life myths. The long passage of time has allowed thei= r=20 followers to effectively cover up their guru's flaws, just as Rajneesh=20 disciples are currently rewriting and censoring history to cover up=20 Rajneesh's great failings. Rajneesh was never more infallible than any=20 other human being. What we call enlightenment is not a cure-all for faul= ts=20 and frailties that cling to human animals even after they achieve maximum= =20 possible consciousness, which is perhaps a more realistic definition of t= he=20 term 'enlightenment.' The contradiction of corruption and enlightenment can occur because = the=20 individual is only the lens of enlightenment, not the source of cosmic po= wer=20 itself. The enlightened only allow universal energy to pass through them= =20 unblocked, untouched, and uncontaminated. In a way no one ever really=20 becomes enlightened personally. Enlightenment happens at the place where= =20 you are standing but you cannot own it or possess it. All the words of=20 so-called enlightened men come from the human brain which interprets the= =20 phenomena of enlightenment like a translator. The words do not come from= =20 the enlightenment itself. By definition enlightenment cannot speak. It = is=20 absolutely silent and beyond any need to speak. > --=20 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.6 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Wed Dec 08 09:34:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8649 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 17:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 17:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 17:34:15 -0000 Received: from 3e6b0d60.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.13.96] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Cc5hd-0007sL-03 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:34:13 +0100 Message-ID: <002a01c4dd4c$716ba6f0$600d6b3e@khidr> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:36:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.11 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: Krishtar asked: "Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."?" My answer: What part of the expression do you not understand or are in doubt about? I think some people are not aware of that Theosophy is the same as pure esoteric Buddhism or esoteric Adwaita + the the teachings of the Upanishads if the dead-letter is avoided. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hi Morten Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."? _______________________________________ I am used to reading on the Adwaita philolosophy, such as Vivekananda´s, some Patanjali´s sutras , some excerpts from the sage Ramana Maharshi, Shankara...but no serious compromises of a real study. There are, IMO, three instances in the path: to read for information only, to read and understand and the other, the main task of the seeker, to practise. The practise of Adwaita is limited by our level of conscience ( or ignorance...) As far as we are still living on the mind realms, we are still just reading about duality in books which preach non-duality. It is relatively funny. I gess there is a hat-size for each size of head...But this level of books are for helping to get rid of ignorance. If you meant this, it is not a book for any person, is for those who want to incorporate elements for an higher inner seek. When I was young I used to get satisfied by the explanations of church books...then with spiritist books, now, things change and the search is different. Regards and many thanks for the help on Idries Shah books! ______________________________________ I agree with you and say with my own words what i understanding of what you said: It is possible to dicuss Osho from a Theosophical view, but analise his controverses and defend prejudices produces no fruits. I think he was a sage in many of his lectures and concentrates many interesting views. Who has ever told where wisdom is? It´s almost everywhere. We must look for it with an open mind. ______________________________________________________________ Krishtar Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secondly "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a policy, which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large library (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see if they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwaita and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares to read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books´ list for a beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn´t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to find someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind and with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for the truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I wouldn´t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch ( smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over here but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who seem that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The >> Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Wed Dec 08 09:59:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92435 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 17:59:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 17:59:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.226) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 17:59:46 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.83.24.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.83.24]) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Cc65V-0004zn-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:58:54 -0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.289 [265.4.7]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:58:48 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c4dd4f$90a62920$18539904@JoeyMeredith> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <001001c4dccb$b6721c60$37569904@JoeyMeredith> <004801c4dd21$f7e29f20$0301010a@versus> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:58:47 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.121.226 From: "Bill Meredith" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho_ Bill X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille Krishtar, Thanks for your comments. I see your point of view, but I also see some possible disconnect. Probably it is just the language, but when you conclude, "There are and there were real enlighted people in the world. I believe it.," are you implying that Christopher Calder or I or Bart or Morten are somehow disagreeing with that statement? I have met some "real enlighted" people. However, they were not perfect even though they were real and enlightened they remain "people" in the sense of being active participants in the human condition. Is it your position that there are and were perfect human beings? If so I must ask how you have reached this conclusion? bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho_ Bill Hi Bill I am reading the entire article on line and agree with many afirmations and doubt of many too. The article excerpt you kindly included for example says " The idealized fantasy of perfect enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never existed." I´ll throw my theos books in the trash bin!(smile) _______________________________________________________ Other excerpts from the link that show the limitations of the "thinkers".The authority of the articles are also questionable, but useful to see other POV´s: " In my opinion, the world would be better off if most of the books written by the famous mystics were used for fuel to keep us all warm at night. " "Meditation is basic good-clean-fun." "Objectively, by any measurement, enlightened people are as egocentric as anyone else." "There was no "Lord Buddha," only an enlightened Siddhartha Gautama. There was no "Lord Jesus," only a carpenter who made extravagant claims. The only way to be egoless is to physically die and not come back into this world. If you are here, you have an ego. Do not fool yourself or allow yourself to be fooled by others. " Christopher Calder +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There are and there were real enlighted people in the world. I believe it. The sub-links of the mentioned link lead us to other articles of doubtful background as the claiming that if we loose the ego our brain cannot survive and things like that prove that the people who wrote have a limited awareness of what ego and personality is, he is another seeker like us, whose fallibility is plainly possible. Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Meredith To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:14 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Bart, Thanks for the Osho link. I hope the folks who find the time to attack you also find the time to read the essay. I have included a small section below because it speaks to the issue of "masters" --even theosophical masters --- from a perspective with which I generally am in agreement. regards, bill excerpt from http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html < Rajneesh's disciples thought they were following an authoritative "enlightened master." In reality they had been mislead by a highly fallible enlightened human animal who was still a little boy at heart. Rajneesh had not only misrepresented himself personally, but he misrepresented the phenomena of enlightenment itself. The idealized fantasy of perfect enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never existed. The universe is far too big and complex for anyone to be its "master." We are all subjects, not masters, and those who pretend to be infallible and all-knowing end up looking even more the fool in the end. "Nature does not use anything as a model. It is only interested in perfecting the species. It is trying to create perfect species and not perfect beings." U.G. Krishnamurti The famous sages of old seem perfect to us now only because they have become larger than life myths. The long passage of time has allowed their followers to effectively cover up their guru's flaws, just as Rajneesh disciples are currently rewriting and censoring history to cover up Rajneesh's great failings. Rajneesh was never more infallible than any other human being. What we call enlightenment is not a cure-all for faults and frailties that cling to human animals even after they achieve maximum possible consciousness, which is perhaps a more realistic definition of the term 'enlightenment.' The contradiction of corruption and enlightenment can occur because the individual is only the lens of enlightenment, not the source of cosmic power itself. The enlightened only allow universal energy to pass through them unblocked, untouched, and uncontaminated. In a way no one ever really becomes enlightened personally. Enlightenment happens at the place where you are standing but you cannot own it or possess it. All the words of so-called enlightened men come from the human brain which interprets the phenomena of enlightenment like a translator. The words do not come from the enlightenment itself. By definition enlightenment cannot speak. It is absolutely silent and beyond any need to speak. > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.6 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.7 - Release Date: 12/7/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.7 - Release Date: 12/7/2004 From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 08 10:06:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53209 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 18:05:55 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.11.90.16]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B87F34037 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:05:52 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:04:45 -0200 Message-ID: <00bd01c4dd50$6662f520$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> <002a01c4dd4c$716ba6f0$600d6b3e@khidr> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:04:45 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, thanks for replying! " Re-asking":about Idries Shah You said that it is not for everyone. Did you mean that not everybody is prepared to understand Idries.? If it is so, it has to do a bit with one of the aforisms of KarmaYoga, whic= h (if I can remember the right or aproximate words)says that Karma also de= termines how far or how deep the seeker can realise certain truths or studi= es in a lifetime. What is your opinion? There are lots of people who read and read, study and study, jump from one = esoteric movement to another, but at the end they seem not to understand ev= en the basis from the path=B4s rudiments. While others, as fast as he can get a book and read it , it instantly gets = absorbed and understood. And the most interesting is that they change interiorly. Speculatively, Karma through the skandas can also determine whence you can = go on the next time the thread of conscience ( the " spirit" )begins the le= arning... Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: Krishtar asked: "Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not sayin= g=20 that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."?" My answer: What part of the expression do you not understand or are in doubt about? I think some people are not aware of that Theosophy is the same as pure=20 esoteric Buddhism or esoteric Adwaita + the the teachings of the Upanisha= ds=20 if the dead-letter is avoided. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hi Morten Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying= =20 that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."? _______________________________________ I am used to reading on the Adwaita philolosophy, such as Vivekananda=B4s= ,=20 some Patanjali=B4s sutras , some excerpts from the sage Ramana Maharshi,= =20 Shankara...but no serious compromises of a real study. There are, IMO, three instances in the path: to read for information only= ,=20 to read and understand and the other, the main task of the seeker, to=20 practise. The practise of Adwaita is limited by our level of conscience ( or=20 ignorance...) As far as we are still living on the mind realms, we are still just readi= ng=20 about duality in books which preach non-duality. It is relatively funny. I gess there is a hat-size for each size of head...But this level of book= s=20 are for helping to get rid of ignorance. If you meant this, it is not a book for any person, is for those who want= to=20 incorporate elements for an higher inner seek. When I was young I used to get satisfied by the explanations of church=20 books...then with spiritist books, now, things change and the search is=20 different. Regards and many thanks for the help on Idries Shah books! ______________________________________ I agree with you and say with my own words what i understanding of what y= ou=20 said: It is possible to dicuss Osho from a Theosophical view, but analise his=20 controverses and defend prejudices produces no fruits. I think he was a sage in many of his lectures and concentrates many=20 interesting views. Who has ever told where wisdom is? It=B4s almost everywhere. We must look= for=20 it with an open mind. ______________________________________________________________ Krishtar Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secon= dly "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a poli= cy, which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large libr= ary (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see= if they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwai= ta and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares= to read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books=B4 list for a beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn=B4t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to = find someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind = and with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for = the truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I wouldn=B4t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch = ( smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get= a bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over= =20 here but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who= =20 seem that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearte= d when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and=20 others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotio= nal and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurt= i=20 or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing= . ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to=20 teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly woul= d arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read w= hat >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writing= s. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington=B4s= "The >> Mme. Blavatsky=B4s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky real= ly > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was re= al >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody apprecia= tes >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practise= d >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered= =20 him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Wed Dec 08 10:21:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44066 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 18:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 18:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 18:21:47 -0000 Received: from 3e6b0d60.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.13.96] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Cc6Rd-0001qH-02 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Dec 2004 19:21:45 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c4dd53$159bc290$600d6b3e@khidr> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> <002a01c4dd4c$716ba6f0$600d6b3e@khidr> <00bd01c4dd50$6662f520$0301010a@versus> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:23:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.11 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are given using *** in the below. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hello, thanks for replying! " Re-asking":about Idries Shah You said that it is not for everyone. Did you mean that not everybody is prepared to understand Idries.? *** Yes. That is one of the views. *** If it is so, it has to do a bit with one of the aforisms of KarmaYoga, which (if I can remember the right or aproximate words)says that Karma also determines how far or how deep the seeker can realise certain truths or studies in a lifetime. What is your opinion? *** It could be true. But another use of words could also be relevant. Such as the right time, place, people and circumstances when reading Idries Shah's book or considering his offers. *** There are lots of people who read and read, study and study, jump from one esoteric movement to another, but at the end they seem not to understand even the basis from the path´s rudiments. *** Yes. I remember something about Annie Besant was putting a great emphasis on that theosophical members should read much and truely absorb the theosophical teaching on not only a superficial level. Blavatsky did just about the same, but she talked much more about avoiding the use of the dead-letter while reading and teaching - and gave however less importance to the value of reading. Well so far my views on the matter. *** While others, as fast as he can get a book and read it , it instantly gets absorbed and understood. And the most interesting is that they change interiorly. *** Sometimes they change so much, that they only write quality emails when the write at all. >:-) M. Sufilight with peace and love... *** Speculatively, Karma through the skandas can also determine whence you can go on the next time the thread of conscience ( the " spirit" )begins the learning... Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: Krishtar asked: "Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."?" My answer: What part of the expression do you not understand or are in doubt about? I think some people are not aware of that Theosophy is the same as pure esoteric Buddhism or esoteric Adwaita + the the teachings of the Upanishads if the dead-letter is avoided. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten Hi Morten Please, what did you mean with the expression " 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone."? _______________________________________ I am used to reading on the Adwaita philolosophy, such as Vivekananda´s, some Patanjali´s sutras , some excerpts from the sage Ramana Maharshi, Shankara...but no serious compromises of a real study. There are, IMO, three instances in the path: to read for information only, to read and understand and the other, the main task of the seeker, to practise. The practise of Adwaita is limited by our level of conscience ( or ignorance...) As far as we are still living on the mind realms, we are still just reading about duality in books which preach non-duality. It is relatively funny. I gess there is a hat-size for each size of head...But this level of books are for helping to get rid of ignorance. If you meant this, it is not a book for any person, is for those who want to incorporate elements for an higher inner seek. When I was young I used to get satisfied by the explanations of church books...then with spiritist books, now, things change and the search is different. Regards and many thanks for the help on Idries Shah books! ______________________________________ I agree with you and say with my own words what i understanding of what you said: It is possible to dicuss Osho from a Theosophical view, but analise his controverses and defend prejudices produces no fruits. I think he was a sage in many of his lectures and concentrates many interesting views. Who has ever told where wisdom is? It´s almost everywhere. We must look for it with an open mind. ______________________________________________________________ Krishtar Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo Krishtar and all, My views are: 1. First. I am not saying that books under the name Idries Shah are for everyone. 2. Second. I could suggest the books a) first "The Sufis" and b) secondly "The Way of the Sufi" as some of the first books to get aquainted with. The Octagon Press who is behind the books has (as far as I know) a policy, which has sought to make the books available in nearly every large library (at least) in the western hemisphere. So you could try one of the big libraries in your neighbourhood and see if they have the books mentioned. Idries Shah's teachings has in fact many similarities to esoteric Adwaita and the Upanishad teachings as well as Esoteric Buddhism - if one cares to read behind the veils of the dead-letter. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Dear Morten Sincerely, I never read a book by Idries, although I had seen one in a bookstore months ago. I am a total ignorant on Sufism... Maybe you could help me giving the lightest books´ list for a beginner...yep? Waiting Krishtar _______________________________________ About Rajneesh: I didn´t mean to discuss in that level Morten, I was just trying to find someone here that could trade a few impressions on him, with open mind and with no preconceived ideas. A theosophist as one said have to look for the truth and answers to his question-marks with dilligence, wisdom, or I wouldn´t take my time, sit and read and write with my poor eenglisch ( smile), I am an ignorant looking for answers and, as human I am, I get a bit annoyed with the lack of empathy and compassion by many who even occupied important positions inside TS and its branches. Not only over here but in many places. We sometimes criticize many old theosophers from the beginning of the movement but nowadays we see that these criticisms come from people who seem that daily they loose the rare oportunities to be gentle and warmhearted when a single divergence arrises. If the group or media did not permit a true and openminded freedom of thought with respect and empathy there is no worth in discussing such important matters. It is just a sincere and though imprecise point of view. K ----- Original Message ----- From: M. Sufilight To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho Hallo friends and all, My views are: I think I have referred to the below words before. But I will gladly state them again: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." That is why it is better to seek Learning than to discuss Osho and others on a level which leads practically almost nowhere, but into the realms of emotional and intellectual stimulations. As it was said: We shall know them on their fruits. (I know what I think when I compare Blavatsky with either Krishnamurti or Osho. But Learning and Knowledge are both important and should not be avoided and exchanged for mere emotionalism or intellecutal analysing. ) >:-) Let us not just stimulate the emotions. Let us seek to learn and to teach the inner esoterical organ. Well this was just a few views. Now I have one single - and still unanswered question: Was Idries Shah the teacher mentioned by Blavatsky, who possibly would arrive after the years 1975 ? http://www.sufis.org/shah.html from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho > > krishtar wrote: >> Damn it! So it was you who wrote! (smile) If you have never read what >> he said, there is nothing I can say, but if you did you would not >> believe in any " convictions", for we know the tree by its fruits. > > That's right. I judge Osho by his actions, and not just his writings. > >> If one wants to know who HPB was and take the Peter Washington´s "The >> Mme. Blavatsky´s Baboon" or some excerpts from the SPR it is >> similar...one will think she was a liar and a fraud. > > Except that Peter Washington's work was not made available for peer > review. In fact, most of his accusations about H. P. Blavatsky really > were taking the statements of Alice Bailey, and attributing them to > Blavatsky. > >> government " of his "disciples" interests. The intoxication was real >> Bart, but remember that he used to be somebody who always talked >> openly the truth, whomever it might concern, no everybody appreciates >> it, and at that time there was much concern in making him a >> criminal. > > So, he didn't have sex with minors? They were all lying? > >> simplified version in mind, the choice is yours. He never practised >> bioterrorism. Not him. That is what I believe and I had to say. > > Here's an interesting article from one who knew him, and considered him > to be a holy man: > > http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html > > Bart > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Dec 08 10:31:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74414 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 18:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 18:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 18:31:04 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.11.90.16]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45598349E for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:31:01 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:29:48 -0200 Message-ID: <00d201c4dd53$e5f85de0$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041206.111429.1427.82446@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> <41B4C00C.2030504@sprynet.com> <00f201c4dbdc$7e071d20$0301010a@versus> <41B4DF12.1010409@sprynet.com> <016701c4dbf6$372dc240$0301010a@versus> <41B53BF0.1060901@sprynet.com> <003401c4dc84$39a5d6a0$731f6b3e@khidr> <006201c4dc95$a240a580$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dc99$706e2470$731f6b3e@khidr> <001201c4dd0b$ca911120$0301010a@versus> <002a01c4dd4c$716ba6f0$600d6b3e@khidr> <00bd01c4dd50$6662f520$0301010a@versus> <000401c4dd53$159bc290$600d6b3e@khidr> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:29:48 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho -Morten X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Krishtar wrote: "While others, as fast as he can get a book and read it , it instantly gets= =20 absorbed and understood. And the most interesting is that they change interiorly. *** M. Sufilight: Sometimes they change so much, that they only write quality emails when the= y=20 write at all. >:-) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Krishtar wrote: That=B4s what I hope to do someday somehow!:-) Regards K +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rajputks@hotmail.com Wed Dec 08 17:31:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78125 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 01:31:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 01:31:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 01:31:35 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:31:03 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.54 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:30:19 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, nrshukla@yahoo.com Bcc: Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 07:00:19 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Dec 2004 01:31:03.0230 (UTC) FILETIME=[BEF8FDE0:01C4DD8E] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.62 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.54] Subject: Projection of Astral Body - I X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY- I It was in the year l961, I was a student of B.Sc. II year. I was found of a cultural magazine, “Bharati” published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan, Bombay.( present Mumbai) and edited by the renowned figure Shri Kanhaia Lal Munshi. I came across an article named, “PAR KAYA PRAVESH”. The article described a method to project one’s astral body. According to the method, I kept a fast on a day. I ate nothing. Even water was not taken. At night, I placed water filled pot on a table before my bed. While looking at the pot, I tried to sleep. What I observed? Few glowing white lines came out of my body and reached the pot. What happened after-wards? I do not remember. Probably, it was my first experiment with my astral body. It was an important turning point in my spiritual life. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss out on jobs that are not advertised. http://goindia.msnserver.com/IN/55250.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today. From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Dec 09 02:04:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82002 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 10:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 10:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.43) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 10:04:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n9.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 10:04:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Dec 2004 10:04:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 10:03:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3920 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.43 From: "Erica Letzerich" X-Originating-IP: 80.76.58.14 Subject: Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B=97something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (=97), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).=96=96Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days=97but only for a few days=97 to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a=97whic= h could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 09 02:29:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66296 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 10:29:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 10:29:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 10:29:06 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.93]) by smtp4.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C759333F00; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:27:52 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:26:41 -0200 Message-ID: <001101c4ddd9$92b20b00$0301010a@versus> To: Cc: , , , References: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:26:41 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.180 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Projection of Astral Body - FEAR X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I once knew this experiment in another form, a psychic friend taught me a variation of your experience. He told me that if we keep a water fast for hours and quite before the bedtime ( he insisted that it must be not when you are feeling speepy 'cause if you fall asleep you'll not remember anything later) we put a tiny portion of salt on the tongue and before going to bed you live a glass of water a few steps from the bed, after relaxation it is easier to project the astral body. Did you try it later? I read once that when we wake up in the astral, all the surroundings seems to be illuminated by a yellowish light and all things look as if seen through a mirror ( inverted). There is a big institute in Brazil called IIPC which concentrates tons of books and courses on Projeciology. I gess I still do not have the nerve to do it, I am still scared of the inhabitants and their influences of this plane when this particular Siddhi wakes up in us.... Krishtar Brazil ----- Original Message ----- From: Kamal Singh Rajput To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com ; asbhand@satyam.net.in ; dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in ; nrshukla@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:30 PM Subject: Theos-World Projection of Astral Body - I PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY- I It was in the year l961, I was a student of B.Sc. II year. I was found of a cultural magazine, "Bharati" published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan, Bombay.( present Mumbai) and edited by the renowned figure Shri Kanhaia Lal Munshi. I came across an article named, "PAR KAYA PRAVESH". The article described a method to project one's astral body. According to the method, I kept a fast on a day. I ate nothing. Even water was not taken. At night, I placed water filled pot on a table before my bed. While looking at the pot, I tried to sleep. What I observed? Few glowing white lines came out of my body and reached the pot. What happened after-wards? I do not remember. Probably, it was my first experiment with my astral body. It was an important turning point in my spiritual life. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Don't miss out on jobs that are not advertised. http://goindia.msnserver.com/IN/55250.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 09 02:45:16 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28676 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 10:45:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 10:45:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 10:45:15 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.93]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C383539 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:45:08 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:36:27 -0200 Message-ID: <002b01c4ddda$f003b3c0$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:36:27 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will be = lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly dreadf= ul stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " via= gem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-whic= h could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Dec 09 02:52:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35837 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 10:52:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 10:52:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54106.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.241) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 10:52:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 90260 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Dec 2004 10:52:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jHFKyt/EBz91ytyk71zVE7P/P2MPcpNPDFjHE0wHi2ymij8abAL12K7dtgxml6febKSOMqC+qzv5gxR9SIaTLppZYZoJzNI0tg+b/fqXT6wsyPfnMDLWz8NRmnG78ILVWeh3xcd0c9Oa6zoAV+rLqDziEv03dOH8YsOuDLXqth8= ; Message-ID: <20041209105233.90258.qmail@web54106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.76.58.14] by web54106.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 02:52:32 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 02:52:32 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002b01c4ddda$f003b3c0$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.37.241 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Krishtar, =20 I know that, but I do not recognize no one of the sources you mentioned bel= ow authentic. Channelling is a trap in my opinion, and it can be no more th= an expressions of their imagination mixed with some knowledge that the chan= nel may have. I am really looking to get some more references about Hilario= n present in the early history of the Theosophical Society. I do not consid= er even Geoffrey Hodson=92s books a recommendable source. As I have read ma= ny of Hodson=92s books and I doubt deeply he was ever in contact with the M= ahatmas. Thank you for the feedback anyway. =20 Erica krishtar wrote: Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will be = lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly dreadf= ul stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " via= gem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-which could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Dec 09 03:00:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2816 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 11:00:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 11:00:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54103.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.238) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 11:00:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 51626 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Dec 2004 11:00:14 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=c5ubWidPzLVPlfFa9P8iKGQpw1BWQPNn5/q0OjvyJwFwIpaaqt6IB+RrrOENL/Da9rZTbnbxn+LLwWMuSZWVzSEzGCQEz6s7LB4HoAn6BJjNijVabQyh/GMufuex+XMIvkoSyNroo8QCF1ke61SGFk0/4W0anvBRvPFWNzVoTwE= ; Message-ID: <20041209110014.51624.qmail@web54103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.76.58.14] by web54103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:00:14 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 03:00:14 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002b01c4ddda$f003b3c0$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.37.238 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Krishtar, =20 Ha, I liked the viagem na maionese... :) First time I hear this expression. =20 Erica=20 krishtar wrote: Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will be = lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly dreadf= ul stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " via= gem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-which could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Dec 09 03:11:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36170 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 11:11:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 11:11:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54106.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.241) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 11:11:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 96449 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Dec 2004 11:11:06 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=onoJ4UhRx8A6aEm7lNUd7gd8m3uvurGC8rTyeiMD2fpY1hD8AgambiE3DjJeEuI5EsqhfxytyNoED3EUe9RsYJV/X7OupOL6uWp/t0cZ3uBw3En/KrTQQ2eXFSGLCHj5igr5mQXQts8d3jDP86vQs+BHdolTbyto96gDcMMap4s= ; Message-ID: <20041209111106.96447.qmail@web54106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.76.58.14] by web54106.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:11:05 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 03:11:05 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041209110014.51624.qmail@web54103.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.37.241 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe someone has his address in Egypt, I would be also happy with the addr= ess of the Luxor Brotherhood, any phone numbers or e-mail? :)=20 =20 Two hours fly from Athens to Cairo and that is it. He of someone related t= o him could give me the direct answers I am looking for :)...=20 =20 Erica Erica Letzerich wrote: Hi Krishtar, Ha, I liked the viagem na maionese... :) First time I hear this expression. Erica=20 krishtar wrote: Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will be = lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly dreadf= ul stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " via= gem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-which could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page =96 Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Dec 09 03:25:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51823 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 11:25:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 11:25:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m17.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.207) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 11:25:53 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.f.39fe095f (3972); Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:25:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:25:43 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, study@blavatsky.net, esotericcosmology@yahoogroups.com, mstewart@sunshine.org, CPSkater@aol.com, ThermalMan@aol.com, MaurerPowr@aol.com, SHERIME@aol.com, john-bonnie@comcast.net, cwolfish@bu.edu, pathfinder@mindspring.com, mrsangelkiss@hotmail.com, BartlettRH@aol.com, thoth@skthoth.com, reginald@pipeline.com, dnewel@hotmail.com, Dmsartisan@aol.com, bhershkowitz@yahoo.com, RJSage3@aol.com, rickmaurer@allwirelesssolutions.com, Bretster900@aol.com, philsmac@sbcglobal.net, j0komo@yahoo.com, BigBrotherNorm@optonline.net, rayneinstein@hotmail.com, ferrisbj@hotmail.com, tina313tina@comcast.net, nmaurer@hbs.edu, nmaurer@itam.mx, JDChrchLn@aol.com, hometheater@adelphia.net, hometheater@consultant.com, arabella1@juno.com, GJPEPE@msn.com, edmaurer@verizon.net, dandescu@comcast.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.207 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: How fractal evolution works X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How fractal evolution works -- to build universes, brains, trees, etc. To stop animation click on picture in letter or after downloading and opening in browser. Enjoy, Lenny [Unable to display image] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 09 05:32:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41026 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 13:32:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 13:32:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 13:32:28 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.93]) by smtp4.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DAC33FFD for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:31:46 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.4.7]); Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:30:30 -0200 Message-ID: <003b01c4ddf3$40626c40$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041209105233.90258.qmail@web54106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:30:29 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.180 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi If you read carefully my last post you=B4ll see that I also agree with you. I =B4ve developed naturally the faculty of chanelling some years ago but I = do not use it. The quest is how to identify and to tell from what is mind=B4s fantasy , pu= re thoughts taken from the astral chains, akasa, etc.=20 What I can also see is that many mediums are using the word Channeling for = their mediumship to atract other classes of people =B4cause the term Chanel= ling is more modern than mediumship. My position is that if you can not get aware what you=B4re dealing with, do= not deal with it. There are also some cases in which schizofrenia is also involved as once Da= llas T. talked about. Fortunately most of the masters that were in communication with HPB did all= the work with anonymity, or there would be lots of people claiming being i= n contact with them due to the reputation atributed to the SD and other wor= ks. Geofrey like Leadbeater also had his psychic powers in evidence and their o= bservations are also a matter for a deeper discussion. Regardz Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hilarion Hi Krishtar, =20=20=20 I know that, but I do not recognize no one of the sources you mentioned b= elow authentic. Channelling is a trap in my opinion, and it can be no more = than expressions of their imagination mixed with some knowledge that the ch= annel may have. I am really looking to get some more references about Hilar= ion present in the early history of the Theosophical Society. I do not cons= ider even Geoffrey Hodson's books a recommendable source. As I have read ma= ny of Hodson's books and I doubt deeply he was ever in contact with the Mah= atmas. Thank you for the feedback anyway. =20=20=20 Erica krishtar wrote: Hi Erica If we look for His references outside the theosophical texts there will b= e lots of presumed channeled messages from Him. Summit lighthouse for example offers channeled texts that are mostly drea= dful stuff in their literature. Clair Prophet=B4s works at Summit and other sub-branches seem a great " v= iagem na maionese" ( daydreaming), IMHO, of course. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Letzerich=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hilarion I remember to have read that the first time Blavatsky meet Hilarion was in Egypt, Cairo. She mentions that Hilarion was Greek. As I am=20 making a research about the Mahatmas I would like to collect more material related to the early period of the Theosophical Society about the Adept Hilarion. If anyone has some sources about Hilarion (sources related to the early period of the T.S.) it will be welcome. Making some research I found the following information related to Hilarion: It's said that Hilarion was the author of Light on the Path... Also I found the following in the Letters from the Masters of Wisdom II: 1 From the Master Hilarion, received June 6, 1883. Colonel Olcott writes in that date in his Diary: "Had nice test this a.m. Couldn't decide whether to accept invitations to Colombo or Allahabad first. Put Avinas Ch. Bannerji's letter in shrine, locked door, instantly reopened it and got the written orders of Maha Sahib through Hilarion in French. Done while I stood there and not half a minute had elapsed." The Master H. was in Bombay on February 19, 1881, when He visited both Founders: Colonel Olcott thus writes in his Diary: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet and has been looking over, in, and through the situation. Finds B-something morally awful. Views on India, Bombay, the T.S. in Bombay, Ceylon (-), England and Europe, Christianity and other subjects highly interesting." A note in the collected writings: Collected Writings VOLUME VI August, 1884 MR. A. LILLIE'S DELUSIONS [The "Eastern adept" spoken of by H. P. B. in the above article is Hilarion, who lived for a time on the island of Cyprus, and collaborated with H. P. B. in the writing of her occult stories. He signed himself "Hilarion Smerdis." Col. Henry S. Olcott's entry of Feb. 19, 1881, in his Diaries, says: "Hilarion is here en route for Tibet, and has been looking over, in and through the situation . . . " This entry was made in Bombay. Master K. H. refers also to this journey of Hilarion from Cyprus to Tibet (Mahatma Letters, p. 289).--Compiler.] Also the following: ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF "SOME INQUIRIES SUGGESTED BY MR SINNETT'S ESOTERIC BUDDHISM" Collected Writings VOLUME V Sept., Oct., Nov., 1883 In this text there the original letter in Master Hilarion's handwriting which is preserved in the Archives of The Theosophical Society at Adyar, Madras, India. The letter says the following: "Maha Sahib, with whom I am at the moment, orders me to say that the most reasonable plan would be to make a tour of about a month in the neighboring districts. From Tinnevelly or even from Malabar the Colonel could go to Colombo for a few days-but only for a few days- to encourage them and to recharge them with his personal =C2k=E2=D1a-whic= h could not fail to be beneficial to them. The Societies of the South are in need of his vivifying presence. Going round about within the Presidency, he could thus be recalled at any time to Headquarters, should there be need. July 17 would be the proper time to go to the Northern Provinces, visiting all the Societies on the road, from Bellary to Poona, etc. "Maha Sahib begs the Colonel not to risk his health too much. His advice would be to use a magnetic tile on the heads of three or four people here and to try to enter into relation with [the R=E2jahs of] Venkatagiri and Vizianagram. For that there is enough time till June 17. Let him make a plan and present it." Also in the extracts of Colonell Olcott diary we find the following about Hilarion: Tuesday, November 27. p .m. Damodar returned looking haggard, but more tough and wiry than before. He is now a new man indeed. Brought me a message from Hilarion. Also the following: The Adept-Brother known as Hilarion, Ilarion, and Hillarion Smerdis, who, among other things, collaborated with H.P.B. in the writing of her occult stories. C.W. Vol. I compilers note Erica Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Erica Letzerich .'. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Dec 10 14:51:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92343 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2004 22:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Dec 2004 22:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Dec 2004 22:51:27 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.185] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cctbg-0006sl-QG for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:51:25 +0000 Message-ID: <41BA28FB.2060700@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:53:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on omega.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: re crop circles in relation to ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Elsewhere somebody asked me about crop circles in relation to "Avataras." So ... ^:-/ ... While one might speculate about how an "Avatar" (in whatever sense/context, per whatever defining influence) might be seen in relation to "possible experiences" in one's apparent here-and-now or "real" world or worldview ... I wonder if, maybe, some sort of Master/s or Avatar/s (or "civilizer/s" like Varichoca, Kukulkan, Quetzalcoatl, Osiris, etc, as per Graham Hancock's FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS, eg) might these days use crop circles as an introduction or influence for whatever else they might have in mind. Of course, on the other hand, inasmuchas if crop circles in general are regarded as fairly neutral (or vague, vapid, dull, uninteresting, meaningless, etc, per whatever interpretive tendencies or influences ...) in terms of how they might be generally interpreted ... what can we say ... I wonder if the general perception might be or might tend to be that they're not "intelligible enough," maybe, because of which ... whatever ... not that they seem particularly neutral to me. Seems to me that, in their way, they might be seen (at times, maybe, by some people, I'm speculating ...) as providing for rather compelling evidence why some alternate interpretations, (by way of some sort of significant enough contrast, in some cases, to orthodox/conventional views), in general, or at times, might be seen to play a significant enough and crucial enough role or potential role in whatever sense/context. Eg, the current controversies surrounding the sustainability of the global environment come to mind in terms of contrasts between orthodox/conventional influences vs. progressive/alternate influences. And if crops are seen as related to the environment, eg ... Seems to me that the crop circles are very visibly drawing the attention of the human race. It's as if they're alerting us (some of us, maybe ...) to wake up to some realities, and yet they're not spelling out anything for us in so many words, leaving us to decide for ourselves how we want to wake up to whatever, if at all. I'm tending to speculate that that kind of approach/influence might be one used by those who might be knowingly working within karmic limits. At any rate, I seem to have a hard time speculating about how the crop circles might've "just materialized in some natural way that hasn't been discovered, yet." I suspect that that latter "explanation" might generally tend to be in keeping with the orthodox/conventional/mainstream view ... Speculatively, Mauri From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:11:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 5216 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:11:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.115] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:43 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52930 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:08:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 986 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "aupanishad2300" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:39 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.36 I've been a member of the Theosophical Society of Pasadena for many years, and have been a member of this discussion group once before but left of my own accord for personal reasons. I'm a military retiree and disabled, but have been familiar with Theosophy since I was about 17 years old (I'm 59 now). Thank you for accepting me back into the group and I will try to add something worthwhile to the discussion, although it may be slightly off-track sometimes. I see Theosophy, as WQJ put it, a vast ocean of knowledge, and it is capable of absorbing anything and everything, but will never be full. If anyone has any personal questions, my email address is: aupanishad@msn.com I use the name Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali because I once joined the religion of Islam, and although I quit practicing it after the 1993 WTC bombings, I still love it and try to live its spirit of love and peace which is how I understand submission to Allah. Andrew Smith [Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:11:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 50952 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:11:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:52 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77442 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 17:38:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 17:38:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.112) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 17:38:08 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:38:07 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:37:58 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:38:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:38:02 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 17:38:07.0573 (UTC) FILETIME=[2D009850:01C4DFA8] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.112 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: [excerpt] Kabir X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:51 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.24 O SERVANT, where dost thou seek Me? Lo! I am beside thee. I am neither in temple nor in mosque: I am neither in Kaaba nor in Kailash: Neither am I in rites and ceremonies, nor in Yoga and renunciation. If thou art a true seeker, thou shalt at once see Me: thou shalt meet Me in= a moment of time. Kab=EEr says, "O Sadhu! God is the breath of all breath." Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:12:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 91795 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:12:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:58 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11621 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 18:43:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 18:43:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.57) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 18:43:06 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:42:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV27.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:41:03 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:41:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:41:06 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 18:42:01.0605 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A437350:01C4DFB1] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.57 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Urantia Book Reference X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.24 http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper115.html Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:12:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 67459 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:12:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.181] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:12:04 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85765 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 18:57:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 18:57:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.119) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 18:57:10 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:57:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV15.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:56:38 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:56:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:56:42 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 18:57:00.0572 (UTC) FILETIME=[3216EDC0:01C4DFB3] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.119 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: "Thinking and Destiny" [excerpt] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:59 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 GOD, A: is a thought being, created by the thoughts of human beings as the representative of the greatness of what they feel or fear; as what any one would or might like to be, to will, and to do. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:13:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 55972 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:13:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:13:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:13:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:47 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74713 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 17:29:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 17:29:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 17:29:24 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:29:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV31.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:28:54 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP" , "GROUP" , "GROUP" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Temple Prostitute" , "JOYCE SMITH" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:28:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:28:58 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 17:29:01.0501 (UTC) FILETIME=[E7849ED0:01C4DFA6] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.61 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:11:47 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doctrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are collectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by this concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From avalook7@hotmail.com Sat Dec 11 11:18:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 81743 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.43) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n9.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:09 -0000 X-Sender: avalook7@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72073 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2004 12:53:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2004 12:53:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.51) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2004 12:53:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 2004 12:52:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.118] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Dec 2004 12:52:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:52:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041208053736.85593.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 879 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.51 From: "lalaya7" X-Originating-IP: 161.148.208.203 Subject: Re: Hodgson Report X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121455975 X-Yahoo-Profile: lalaya7 X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:18:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.43 Hello Pedro! I have never found the entire Hogsdons Report in the internet. Maybe you can find Vernom Harrison's book, correctin Hogsdon. I guess the report is attached to the book and I am also glad to tell you that Vernom Harrison's book will be publsihed in Portuguese next year. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Pedro Oliveira wrote: > Is there an online edition of the full text of > the(1885) SPR "Report of the Committee Appointed to > Investigate Phenomena Connected with The Theosophical > Society", also known as the "Hodgson Report"? > > So far I have only found critical studies of the > Report, but not the Report itself. Any information is > appreciated. > > Pedro > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 11:19:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 42859 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:19:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:17:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Dec 2004 19:17:58 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75305 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 19:04:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 19:04:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 19:04:42 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:04:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV21.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:03:35 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:03:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:03:39 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 19:04:00.0547 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C6A0730:01C4DFB4] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.125 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Ref: "Thinking and Destiny" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 11 Dec 2004 19:17:58 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.39 http://www.word-foundation.com/tnd/CHAPTER%20X.htm Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sat Dec 11 17:40:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57728 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 01:40:53 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-102-050-015.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.50.15]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CA8340C for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:40:51 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:39:23 -0200 Message-ID: <001b01c4dfeb$681c24c0$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:39:22 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish vers= ion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a G= od. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries..= . One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of th= e ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God, = one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the= process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere= ? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being= " and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are availabl= e free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theor= y is that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind toget= her to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Morm= on doctrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we ar= e collectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. H= ave any of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinat= ed by this concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rajputks@hotmail.com Sat Dec 11 18:00:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8647 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:00:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:00:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:00:16 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:00:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.36 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:59:17 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <1102787167.2208.46251.m12@yahoogroups.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, satishmehta4@epatra.com, kamal.singhrajput@gmail.com, Gajendrak@hotmail.com, kh_singh@yahoo.com, mahendra11_in@rediffmail.com Bcc: Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 07:29:17 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2004 02:00:01.0869 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A857FD0:01C4DFEE] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.83 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.36] Subject: Projection of Astral Body - II X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY – II Encouraged by the first experiment on projection of astral body, I started reading books on astral-plain and astral body. Luckily, I found a teacher at Sagar (a town where I lived); who possessed hundreds of books on para-psychology, theosophy and spiritualism. I learned that every body possesses his or her astral body of exactly the same shape and form as his or her physical body. The astral body consists of finer form of matter. It is said that there is cell to cell coincidence between the physical and the astral. When we are awake, the astral body coincides with the astral body. When we go to sleep, generally the astral body comes out of the physical body but we remain asleep in the astral body. This is the reason why we do not notice its existence. Anyhow, if we become awake in the astral body and learn to control it; a wonderful New World is before us. We can go to distant places and meet different people on the physical as well as astral plain. The astral body remains connected with the physical body with a silvery card; which extends as the astral.body moves out of it. I followed another method to project my astral body. There was no fast. I laid down normally on my back while going to sleep. I concentrated on my heart and thought that my heart rate is slowing down. I tried to keep one hand up. This was to keep my self semi-conscious or half-awake. After a while, I observed a glowing white envelope covering my body just few centimeters above. It remained for few minutes and thereafter I went to sleep. Wonderful experience! The astral body was just separated from the physical. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Pep up your screen! Kickstart your day! http://www.msn.co.in/Cinema/screensaver/ Get these vibrant screensavers! From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 18:25:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 80923 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43902 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 22:48:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 22:48:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.114) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 22:48:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:48:10 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV10.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:47:05 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:47:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:47:07 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 22:48:10.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D7A3130:01C4DFD3] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.114 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:08 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 Neo-Heraclitus Sententiae --- 28 Nov 2004 "The Red Sea is our blood" We are in death in life There is no "god" that mankind can "know" "Allah" is the richest conception of a deity The "conception of deity" is not the "conception of deity" Even "Allah" is not "Allah" We cannot "know" Alcohol is bad for mankind, just as is tobacco Coffee and tea is the drink of the Submitters There is no perfect religion just as there is no "god" The nearest thing to a "god" is DNA=20 We only know divinity microscopically, never macroscopically The "Red Sea" is DNA "Allah" is the aggregate of DNA Allah is our (i.e., all living entities=92) blood The "Qur=92an" is the most perfect scripture "The most perfect scripture" is not "the most perfect scripture" The "Mother Book" is DNA=20 Muhammad was indeed the last of the Prophets "Threats of hell" are for our heedance to be thankful "Hopes" of Paradise" are to show that we are of the thankful Lack of thankfulness is the greatest sin Denial of Allah alone is lack of thankfulness If we are not "Beneficent" and "Merciful" we are not thankful "Jihad of the nafs" is none other than thankfulness "Thankfulness" is not "thankfulness" The Beneficent and Merciful is not a bloody God Blood pulses in life Life is Allah, He the pulse of pulses He the Life of life When Al-Hallaj was crucified When his hands and feet were cut off Life still lived in him He told the crowd of those who thought they Submitted "Ana al-Haq" He knew that his lifeblood was not the blood of Allah He knew, too, that Allah was his lifeblood He whispered, "Oh Allah, if they knew what I know, They could never shed my blood" What would we shed our blood for? My tomcat sheds my blood profusely I love him still Love and blood purges our Nafs Lay not the "Qur'an aside, it is not bloody as the Salafies would have us b= elieve It is love, the love of Allah toward man And, yet Allah is so far and so close that we cannot find Him The Friend is far, but close, Is He not? "The Diamond Sutra" of Buddhism tells us That the truth is not the truth, because we cannot "pin down" the Truth And, yet it exists What we can "pin down" is not life It is the death of life --- Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali [pseudonym for Andrew W. Smith] N.B."How can this be? If these Bodhisattvas, Subhuti, should perceive eithe= r dharma or adharma, they would think of an ego, a separate entity, a soul = or a personality. Therefore the Tathagata has taught this saying with a hid= den meaning: 'Those who know that the teachings about dharma are like a raf= t, should renounce dharma and, even more, renounce adharma.'"=20 Buddha asked: "Do you think, Subhuti, that the Tathagata knows any dharma a= s the ultimate and perfect enlightenment? Has the Tathagata ever set forth = such a teaching?"=20 Subhuti reponded: "Not according to my understanding of the teachings of th= e Tathagata. Why? The dharma which the Tathagata fully knows and has set fo= rth can neither be thought nor formulated in words, for it is neither dharm= a nor adharma." --- From "The Diamond Sutra" Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 18:25:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24495 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49640 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2004 20:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Dec 2004 20:50:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.116) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2004 20:50:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:50:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV12.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:49:28 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:49:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:49:32 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2004 20:50:01.0292 (UTC) FILETIME=[FBB6B0C0:01C4DFC2] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.116 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Harold Percival [excerpt] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:08 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.47 Religions as beliefs, systems and institutions are both good and bad. This depends on the people who practice them. When a religion is practiced to lead or to allow its devotees to develop reasoning and understanding and to grow into a higher and more enlightened state, it is good. It is bad, when by means of it people are kept in ignorance and darkness, and when vice, crime and cruelty flourish under it. Usually the beginning of a new religion is promising. It comes to meet a demand. It starts out of a decaying religion. It is usually born out of tumult, confusion, dissension and war. It attracts enthusiasts and the changeable crowd. It fails to school the mass of adherents to a higher life, and soon suffers from theology, institutionalism, officialism, hypocrisy, bigotry and corruption. So one religion after another appears, disappears, and reappears. The reason is twofold: the mass of re-existing doers whose religion it is get it because it exteriorizes their thoughts, and the actions of those who figure as its priests and officials reflect and embody the aims of the adherents. On the whole it is better that there should be even such a religion than none. It keeps the believers from doing worse than they do. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Dec 11 18:25:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30893 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:25:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64330 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:14:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:14:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:14:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 9152 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 02:14:24 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=xa6+UPbY6CcHHV597lCrPsp7SeswhuhoQ5MuY5zw8Sm6uT+0j/JtLF1hMPLbsQhhGLUYZwxzyqvNMlk4NnoWFpCdgGv6HMqAUSUF2c/lIQvgT+wW2xC5/wzRFOvZP3BAQoPGmwemPMAngDQiPFubE9AS3jI9mCT7beU7O2zaY0A= ; Message-ID: <20041212021424.9150.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:14:24 PST Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:14:24 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Projection of Astral Body - II X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 Dear Kamal You have enjoyed a wonderful experience. Theosophy teaches that man has se= ven bodies each corresponding to seven planes of existence. Therefore the = Astral Body can function on all these planes. The lower levels of the Astr= al, I am told, in not very pleasant place and is occupied by men (when in b= ody) of evil and criminal make up. Please be sure to read all you can abou= t the different planes on the astral so that you will be able to recognize = all forms and entities and keep safe. =20=20 Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY =96 II Encouraged by the first experiment on projection of astral body,=20 I started reading books on astral-plain and astral body. Luckily, I found a= =20 teacher at Sagar (a town where I lived); who possessed hundreds of books on= =20 para-psychology, theosophy and spiritualism. I learned that every body possesses his or her astral body of exactly the=20 same shape and form as his or her physical body. The astral body consists o= f=20 finer form of matter. It is said that there is cell to cell coincidence=20 between the physical and the astral. When we are awake, the astral body=20 coincides with the astral body. When we go to sleep, generally the astral=20 body comes out of the physical body but we remain asleep in the astral body= .=20 This is the reason why we do not notice its existence. Anyhow, if we become= =20 awake in the astral body and learn to control it; a wonderful New World is= =20 before us. We can go to distant places and meet different people on the=20 physical as well as astral plain. The astral body remains connected with th= e=20 physical body with a silvery card; which extends as the astral.body moves=20 out of it. I followed another method to project my astral body. There was no=20 fast. I laid down normally on my back while going to sleep. I concentrated= =20 on my heart and thought that my heart rate is slowing down. I tried to keep= =20 one hand up. This was to keep my self semi-conscious or half-awake. After a= =20 while, I observed a glowing white envelope covering my body just few=20 centimeters above. It remained for few minutes and thereafter I went to=20 sleep. Wonderful experience! The astral body was just separated from the=20 physical. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Pep up your screen! Kickstart your day!=20 http://www.msn.co.in/Cinema/screensaver/ Get these vibrant screensavers! Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 What will yours do? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 18:25:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30902 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 02:25:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27484 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 00:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 00:19:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.116) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 00:19:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:19:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV12.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:18:08 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:18:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:18:11 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2004 00:19:00.0653 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DC155D0:01C4DFE0] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.116 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: I've always wondered . . . . . X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Dec 2004 02:25:09 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.40 why do we get such inane redundant TV news in the USA? There is a world, a veritable universe, of news going on all the time, and yet all we hear about is the Peterson Trial and a few other tidbits. What's going on in India, Malaysia, Africa, etc., etc.? We've got the laziest news reporters, and I might say the most biased, in the world! The news in South America, Europe, China, Japan, and the Middle-East is full of stories of things of interest and human need, but we get the Peterson trial, Peterson trial, Peterson trial, ad nauseum. The news is obviously being carefully controlled due to Bush's war, but surely there are people doing something besides occupying Iraq. What's happening in Syria, Jordan, Turkey. etc.? How's the crop of opium in Afghanistan these days? What dictators (besides the Saudis) are we collaborating with these days to get what we want before we turn them into anti-American terrorists (like Bin Laden was in Russia's Afghanistan war)? Our American news is inane, redudant, and BORING. Get with it MEDIA! Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Dec 11 19:06:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7268 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 31208 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 03:06:02 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=T1/SoxPQC7ZxaEWECrhfIFeOsblKLLpcirZ+MLqUvO+yNxFLB7MU4dEPdlCZPDMAD3uXTO6wWjdsA7qn4rJo9FtvOJzyInALm7+bcNMCYswIKWsMS/M/1B5pEULsLTtbmHUfuOcGUDtqY6ykYLtC8ZTmFKI1NiiKOvJPK1s41JI= ; Message-ID: <20041212030602.31206.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:06:02 PST Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:06:02 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001b01c4dfeb$681c24c0$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.78 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives its= life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is l= inked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all i= deas emanate. =20 Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of inte= lligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling a= divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SAT)= revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness ar= e related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evolut= ionary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are i= nterested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish vers= ion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a G= od. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries..= . One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of th= e ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God, = one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the= process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere?= I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" = and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available f= ree on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is = that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together t= o create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doc= trine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are coll= ectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any = of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by thi= s concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 Get yours free!=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Dec 11 19:30:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6764 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.72) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 3388 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=iKvd6WmA10mCN5xnjb2C2gWIYhFBNlt2rITO7VFzdjN4qY2k239Xn4DPA/hkVhmTY/rB3qiMBPkS1YJ9ofjlD4mE77UCdFoCUI690404nClPCP/Rry3s0sVkFFrU8+gX+wPoMtj2QVU4a8drv8dllPScsl5qQzX3XVPcu47fOqA= ; Message-ID: <20041212033030.3386.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:30:30 PST Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:30:30 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.72 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Said as a true scientific existensialist. If life is so meaningless why no= t eat drink and be merry Andrew Smith wrote: Neo-Heraclitus Sententiae --- 28 Nov 2004 "The Red Sea is our blood" We are in death in life There is no "god" that mankind can "know" "Allah" is the richest conception of a deity The "conception of deity" is not the "conception of deity" Even "Allah" is not "Allah" We cannot "know" Alcohol is bad for mankind, just as is tobacco Coffee and tea is the drink of the Submitters There is no perfect religion just as there is no "god" The nearest thing to a "god" is DNA=20 We only know divinity microscopically, never macroscopically The "Red Sea" is DNA "Allah" is the aggregate of DNA Allah is our (i.e., all living entities=92) blood The "Qur=92an" is the most perfect scripture "The most perfect scripture" is not "the most perfect scripture" The "Mother Book" is DNA=20 Muhammad was indeed the last of the Prophets "Threats of hell" are for our heedance to be thankful "Hopes" of Paradise" are to show that we are of the thankful Lack of thankfulness is the greatest sin Denial of Allah alone is lack of thankfulness If we are not "Beneficent" and "Merciful" we are not thankful "Jihad of the nafs" is none other than thankfulness "Thankfulness" is not "thankfulness" The Beneficent and Merciful is not a bloody God Blood pulses in life Life is Allah, He the pulse of pulses He the Life of life When Al-Hallaj was crucified When his hands and feet were cut off Life still lived in him He told the crowd of those who thought they Submitted "Ana al-Haq" He knew that his lifeblood was not the blood of Allah He knew, too, that Allah was his lifeblood He whispered, "Oh Allah, if they knew what I know, They could never shed my blood" What would we shed our blood for? My tomcat sheds my blood profusely I love him still Love and blood purges our Nafs Lay not the "Qur'an aside, it is not bloody as the Salafies would have us b= elieve It is love, the love of Allah toward man And, yet Allah is so far and so close that we cannot find Him The Friend is far, but close, Is He not? "The Diamond Sutra" of Buddhism tells us That the truth is not the truth, because we cannot "pin down" the Truth And, yet it exists What we can "pin down" is not life It is the death of life --- Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali [pseudonym for Andrew W. Smith] N.B."How can this be? If these Bodhisattvas, Subhuti, should perceive eithe= r dharma or adharma, they would think of an ego, a separate entity, a soul = or a personality. Therefore the Tathagata has taught this saying with a hid= den meaning: 'Those who know that the teachings about dharma are like a raf= t, should renounce dharma and, even more, renounce adharma.'"=20 Buddha asked: "Do you think, Subhuti, that the Tathagata knows any dharma a= s the ultimate and perfect enlightenment? Has the Tathagata ever set forth = such a teaching?"=20 Subhuti reponded: "Not according to my understanding of the teachings of th= e Tathagata. Why? The dharma which the Tathagata fully knows and has set fo= rth can neither be thought nor formulated in words, for it is neither dharm= a nor adharma." --- From "The Diamond Sutra" Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sat Dec 11 20:26:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97299 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 04:26:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 04:26:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 04:26:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 04:26:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.180] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 04:26:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:26:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041212033030.3386.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 575 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.16 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 > Said as a true scientific existensialist. If life is so meaningless why not eat drink and be merry > Cass, look it over again and then read the quote from "The Diamond Sutra" below. All it says, in the words of Alfred Korzybski, is "the map is not the territory." Once we learn this,we can upset the poem and the piece of Suta below it. Words can never replace reaities, and that is all I am trying to get across. This is not, for the record, "existentialism," but Buddhist doctrine with an Islamic twist. I'm sorry you didn't understand or like it. Andrew From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 01:42:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78255 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 09:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 09:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 09:42:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 65467 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 09:42:03 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JbDjDIRfVeejz8OuW/uTE6TAJBl5BG2AHU0cHHnUntEXFqe6dHyEafia0XrYfRWJWthihGsBz85I6KRrLK+SXqkQKLLq3h45Aa9lXWfXhP5p8IdmHexLKG9I+I5Tx9giH1orPxxApgCOK/OI81J5ok3CR9E4/3Yxvc3ee+Qdl34= ; Message-ID: <20041212094203.65465.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:42:03 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:42:03 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cass, look it over again and then read the quote from "The Diamond Sutra" below. All it says, in the words of Alfred Korzybski, is "the map is not the territory." Once we learn this,we can upset the poem and the piece of Suta below it. Words can never replace reaities, and that is all I am trying to get across. This is not, for the record, "existentialism," but Buddhist doctrine with an Islamic twist. I'm sorry you didn't understand or like it. Andrew Andrew, The quote from the Diamond Sutra didnt come through. Don't understand the blending of Buddhism and Islam, one is love all, and the other is an eye for an eye. Cass "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: > Said as a true scientific existensialist. If life is so meaningless why not eat drink and be merry > Cass, look it over again and then read the quote from "The Diamond Sutra" below. All it says, in the words of Alfred Korzybski, is "the map is not the territory." Once we learn this,we can upset the poem and the piece of Suta below it. Words can never replace reaities, and that is all I am trying to get across. This is not, for the record, "existentialism," but Buddhist doctrine with an Islamic twist. I'm sorry you didn't understand or like it. Andrew Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From burgem@essex1.com Sun Dec 12 08:49:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: burgem@essex1.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14857 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 16:49:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 16:49:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.essex1.com) (208.1.86.67) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 16:49:48 -0000 Received: from mindy ([207.43.74.222]) by smtp.essex1.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id iBCGex6d032102 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:41:09 -0600 To: Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:48:20 -0600 Message-ID: <04af01c4e06a$671410e0$5dd1a43f@mindy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <1102867053.435.18280.m12@yahoogroups.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 208.1.86.67 From: "Mindy" Subject: RE: Creating God X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=382579 X-Yahoo-Profile: mindy61081 Hi Andrew, The Molecular Relationship by JJ Dewey is a book that fully explains this fascinating concept. You can read it free at http://www.thenewagesite.com/jjdewey/molecular/chapter1.php Love to hear your thoughts on it if you read it! :) Mindy Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:28:58 -0600 From: "Andrew Smith" Subject: Creating "God" I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doctrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are collectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by this concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 09:05:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73539 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 17:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 17:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 17:05:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:05:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:04:39 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:04:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <04af01c4e06a$671410e0$5dd1a43f@mindy> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1628 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Creating God X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Mindy" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > The Molecular Relationship by JJ Dewey is a book that fully explains > this fascinating concept. You can read it free at > http://www.thenewagesite.com/jjdewey/molecular/chapter1.php > > Love to hear your thoughts on it if you read it! :) > > Mindy > > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:28:58 -0600 > From: "Andrew Smith" > Subject: Creating "God" > > > I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in > the process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this > anywhere? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The > Supreme Being" and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." > (Both are available free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if > necessary) I guess the theory is that as we collectively progress in an > evolutionary way, we bind together to create a "super Being" of some > sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doctrine where we each become > Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are collectively "God". This > sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any of you heard of > this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by this concept. > > > Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > "May you live in interesting times!" I read J.J. Dewey, but I'm not impressed. Nothing, not even science, "fully explains" the what, why, when, and where of these matters. He's just another New Age "genius" (good book writer) who has evidentally converted his ideas into some kind of commune.Thanks for the reference, though. Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 09:26:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47079 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 17:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 17:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 17:26:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:26:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:26:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:26:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1481 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: HPB's "Spirit" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 One thing Theosophists need badly today is HPB's and HSO's spirit of debunking the complete idiocy of a lot of New Age ideas. They were very successful in investigating and exposing the "spirit rappings" and other table-tipping and such stuff, which led them to the reality of Theosophy. Today we have "channellers" coming out our "ying-yang" and new "revelations" spring up faster than we can even read them. Weiser Books and Quest and a few others are pretty good at keeping to reality, but there are more "Pleidian channellers" spinging up than you can count. Erica has been excellent at debunking, or graciously rejecting, a lot of this stuff, but we need to keep "on our toes" individually as well. I mentioned Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny" because of one idea in it, not to endorse the book---which I don't. The same applies to "The Urantia Book" and "Oahspe" and hundreds of others. The truth is not "out there" (TV), it is in us. We need to seek the divine in ourselves as HPB taught. I'm as fascinated with the universe as anyone, but what we see so far is a plethora of fiery anamolies that we have yet to make sense of scientifically. HPB's "Secret Doctrine" has come the closest to making sense of it, and that's no doubt why Einstein was interested in the book. Theosophists! Open your eyes and stop contemplating your navels and trying to find your "astral bodies"! As HPB said: "The time for thinkers has come." Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 09:44:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67771 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 17:44:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 17:44:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 17:44:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:44:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 17:44:16 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:44:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1355 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Cass X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Andrew, The quote from the Diamond Sutra didnt come through. Don't understand the blending of Buddhism and Islam, one is love all, and the other is an eye for an eye. Cass Try seeing with your exoteric eyes and find out what I (and the Buddha, and Mansur Al-Hallaj)am trying to say with our esoteric eyes. It's not an exoteric "religion of love" against a "religion of hate." It's not "religious" at all! It's a unity of the spirit that I am trying to portray, something that can be felt but not completely understood. Actually, it was not a poem at all: it was more of a parable. Hallaj understood "Ana al Haq" ("I am the truth") completely like Mahakassapa did when Buddha held up the flower and Zen was born. Hallaj on the cross was the "rose" and Buddha's "flower" was the crucifixion of the spirit on matter, as in Rosicrucian doctrine. Ananada understood the buddha when he said, in Korzybski's words, "The map is not the territory." Our words fail us when spiritual realities overcome us. Hallaj bled and died and Buddha's flower died, but their death's were seed, just as the early Christians used to say that "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of Christianity." Don't read to see how two exoteric religions contradict; read to see how two esoteric spirits arrived at the same truth by different means. Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 10:21:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62949 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 18:21:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 18:21:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.111) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 18:21:04 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:21:04 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV7.phx.gbl with DAV; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:20:08 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:20:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:20:13 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2004 18:21:04.0051 (UTC) FILETIME=[571DB030:01C4E077] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.111 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: I Know the Answer X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know the answer, but I'm going to ask the question anyway: Why is the religion of "the Beneficent and the Merciful" so goddamned bloody? And the religion of the "Prince of Peace" so goddamned warlike? And why do whorehouses and general rape grow up around all the military camps no matter how "just" their cause? Andrew William Smith, F.T.S., M.A. Qalandar: Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you, Inshallah, live in interesting times!" La iliha il-Allah!Anna Muhammadan rasul Allah! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 10:34:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63275 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 18:34:29 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:34:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1117 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.47 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: Hodgson Report X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "lalaya7" wrote: > I have never found the entire Hogsdons Report in the internet. > Maybe you can find Vernom Harrison's book, correctin Hogsdon. I > guess the report is attached to the book > and I am also glad to tell you that Vernom Harrison's book will be > publsihed in Portuguese next year. Harrison's book does not contain the full text of the 1885 "Hodgson Report". It contains an examination of it, a further study of it, replies to criticism, opinion, affidavit and information about the author (Harrison). Glad to know it will be published in Portuguese. I understand there was a storm of attacks on HPB and the TS in Brazil some years ago when Peter Washington's "Madame Blavatsky's Baboon"'s Portuguese edition was published. Some evangelical churches there are in the habit of attacking and denigrating HPB and Theosophy as "satanic". Letters were written by members of the TS to main newspapers in the country defending HPB, but only a few were published. I wonder if such periodical attacks are common in other countries too. Pedro From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 10:47:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96056 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 18:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 18:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 18:47:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 18:47:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Dec 2004 18:47:26 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:47:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041212030602.31206.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 972 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Dear Krishtar > We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. > To quote Theosophy > The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives its life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is linked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. > Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all ideas emanate. Cass: "Dear Krishtar > "We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will." The remainder of your message is a perfect description of what "The borg" is like! We have, as HPB said, free will because "demon est Deus inversus" and that "nature unaided fails." There is a Divine Plan, but we are not "linked together" like the Borg! Re-read what you wrote and then compare it to "The borg." Maybe HPB would be better for setting up our ("Secret")doctrine. Andrew From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sun Dec 12 11:20:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19802 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 19:20:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 19:20:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 19:20:30 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.102]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A033449 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:20:27 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:18:55 -0200 Message-ID: <002501c4e07f$6c520700$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041212030602.31206.qmail@web90107.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:18:55 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Cass Are you from Portugal or Brasil? 1.First of all, I apologise for my ignorance of the expression "the borg". = What is it? 2. The quote you included I am aware of too, I agree with it, mine was just= a comment on how things are nowadays, I know that all that is happening is= but part of the divine plan but a cold reading of it sometimes makes me fe= el worried about the destiny of mankind=B4s spirituality in this life time = of mine!! Many manvantaras will pass though for Man notice the divine insid= e as a whole. Krishtar BR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives i= ts life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is= linked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all= ideas emanate. =20=20=20 Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of in= telligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling= a divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SA= T) revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness = are related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evol= utionary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are= interested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish ve= rsion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a= God. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries= ... One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of = the ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God= , one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in t= he process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywher= e? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being= " and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available= free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory i= s that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together= to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon d= octrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are co= llectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have an= y of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by t= his concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Dec 12 13:04:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75147 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 21:04:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 21:04:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 21:04:53 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cdatg-0004Ao-D4 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:04:52 -0500 Message-ID: <41BCB27E.4020804@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:05:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba053350a6fafc2df1395aa39bda8ad0a985e0aeacdf564a64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.61 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 aupanishad2300 wrote: > I use the name Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali because I once joined the religion > of Islam, and although I quit practicing it after the 1993 WTC > bombings, I still love it and try to live its spirit of love and > peace which is how I understand submission to Allah. I know quite a few Islamic people who no more identify themselves with the bombers of the World Trade Center than most Christians do with the Ku Klux Klan. Daniel Pipes wrote an excellent article about how he would define "moderate Islam", and it applies to all my friends: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=%5CCommentary%5Carchive%5C200311%5CCOM20031125a.html Bart From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 13:31:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45472 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2004 21:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2004 21:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40912.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.209) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2004 21:31:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 73086 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Dec 2004 21:31:53 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=dGb0TNCK0Ysgn9ZDpV4FLTpM82m/b1huk0fs71DOXOb2j1NXaeFuuXxZW8C0IUFJTkmgij2+a0raVPeDutRtwPesoQK0cRaPKeMxLI21ac6bQANAPwn3kWU+/FDrQZNFRL4uMkLK/gNV9dgDuD6Apto0v3gdu57izS6toexR2WE= ; Message-ID: <20041212213153.73084.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40912.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:31:53 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:31:53 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.209 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: William Q. Judge on His Communication with the Dead H.P. Blavatsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Q. Judge on His Communication with the Dead H.P. Blavatsky See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokesjudge1495.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://blavatskyarchives.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 16:16:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84084 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 00:16:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 00:16:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 00:16:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 63068 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 2004 00:16:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=skgt5RTYdmvaa1CpCFfq6ViKrQOBCEohlnLTHaAnw7PiZHcu5D4EsHMp+1Sn1yOEg2l1Ow3p8rtuHmym4Hm5t4jKK8fvpv2w8waKs2LR0FyedHr0ZcfUfKWOtEdQis6tc/PHo23n4to3FbROV6IeYVzEJ66+h2FdXIOBjq1CtIA= ; Message-ID: <20041213001629.63066.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:16:29 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:16:29 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Andrew At an exoteric level, the Borg and the SD Heirarchy would appear to be the = same. But at an esoteric level, they are worlds apart. One takes from othe= rs, and makes of them (non Borgs)automaton's and slaves, while maintaining = and expanding the sum total of the universal knowledge, they have stolen fr= om others. Do the Borg share their knowledge with others in the Universe. = Only the Borg benefit. It is a heirarchy of master/slave. =20 Unlike the Borg, the SD Heirarchy postulates all men as having choices and = free will. We can choose to be a borg or not to be a borg. The Borgs are u= tilitarian in that they do what is best for the greatest good of all. (The = Borgs that is). They assimilate others who are not willing to be assimilate= d. The Heirarchy of the SD is an evolution of mind and spirit from man to d= ivinity.=20 =20 Cass "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Dear Krishtar > We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. > To quote Theosophy > The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity=20 lives its life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the=20 Heirarchy is linked together. Every being or every entity is part of=20 the Divine Plan. > Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from=20 which all ideas emanate. Cass: "Dear Krishtar > "We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will." The remainder of your message is a perfect description of what "The=20 borg" is like! We have, as HPB said, free will because "demon est=20 Deus inversus" and that "nature unaided fails." There is a Divine=20 Plan, but we are not "linked together" like the Borg! Re-read what=20 you wrote and then compare it to "The borg." Maybe HPB would be=20 better for setting up our ("Secret")doctrine. Andrew Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 What will yours do? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 16:31:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63971 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 00:31:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 00:31:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 00:31:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 63728 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 2004 00:31:35 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=KHnSFBbTK0fz0m46GbE+Gzrm1+FwV3PPzXxkBw0ihj3stDM5/O0e+pZEA8jqvuqj6I3z42NGyl7T39cZo5hSBcIBfHZMeHDR5+ClojErH2ygPq5wJX2mwoXOovCtzdbI3m9dSGPb4aAPwa0Uj3BsWARGJl5jc3ENmZQpLCyzBQo= ; Message-ID: <20041213003135.63726.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:31:35 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:31:35 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002501c4e07f$6c520700$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Krishtar I am of irish/english stock. My ex is Portuguese from Lisbon.=20=20 The Borg are one of many species featured in Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. For over 2000 years most religions have pushed a "personal god" to keep the= devotees in fear of punishment. At the core of every great religion is th= e inner that was brought by the Founder, but most religions have totally lo= st the inner now, and even claim their God is more powerful than other peop= le's God, attrocities are committed in God's name, as a political and moral= justification for murder. Things are changing though, over half the world's population now holds a ph= ilosophy of Karma and Reincarnation and a divine source (non personal) that= we all share. Things will change quickly, look how far we have come in th= e last 200 years.=20=20 For most people, it is very scary to let go of the KNOWN (the personal god = belief) to grab a hold of THE UNKNOWN (a god within us). And through fear t= hey rattle the tambourine that defends their God and their belief system, l= abelling anyone outside of it, athiest or worse. Keep the faith and keep = searching for answers. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Cass Are you from Portugal or Brasil? 1.First of all, I apologise for my ignorance of the expression "the borg". = What is it? 2. The quote you included I am aware of too, I agree with it, mine was just= a comment on how things are nowadays, I know that all that is happening is= but part of the divine plan but a cold reading of it sometimes makes me fe= el worried about the destiny of mankind=B4s spirituality in this life time = of mine!! Many manvantaras will pass though for Man notice the divine insid= e as a whole. Krishtar BR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives its = life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is lin= ked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all i= deas emanate. Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of inte= lligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling a = divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SAT)= revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness ar= e related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evoluti= onary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are i= nterested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish vers= ion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a G= od. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries..= . One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of th= e ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God, = one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the= process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere?= I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" = and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available f= ree on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is = that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together t= o create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doc= trine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are coll= ectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any = of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by thi= s concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page =96 Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 16:52:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31788 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 00:52:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 00:52:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.73) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 00:52:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 94494 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 2004 00:52:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Q7FLmzQvYAUZvB4pZeS0Hf4Uig922+DKpFr8Xt+Rl9FmwjOalGp9Ti2mvldS4eek1zsc3GN2CgFj8ymkY0lczVccUiRANzdi6cmwnByl71EJsQ0NwYtpkFjRjtBJ3ZITzVmNKr/Foaq5gWugNaCofC/oBSju6xsorARk2qLr6B4= ; Message-ID: <20041213005256.94492.qmail@web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90102.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:52:56 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:52:56 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41BCB27E.4020804@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.73 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Judge then a religion by its noblest,and not by its worst, and then we shall learn to love each other as brothers, and not hate each other as bigots and as fanatics. Bart Lidofsky wrote: aupanishad2300 wrote: > I use the name Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali because I once joined the religion > of Islam, and although I quit practicing it after the 1993 WTC > bombings, I still love it and try to live its spirit of love and > peace which is how I understand submission to Allah. I know quite a few Islamic people who no more identify themselves with the bombers of the World Trade Center than most Christians do with the Ku Klux Klan. Daniel Pipes wrote an excellent article about how he would define "moderate Islam", and it applies to all my friends: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=%5CCommentary%5Carchive%5C200311%5CCOM20031125a.html Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sun Dec 12 16:57:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42847 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 00:57:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 00:57:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 00:57:48 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (unknown [201.2.204.102]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5423B345A for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:57:44 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:56:12 -0200 Message-ID: <002001c4e0ae$8a6c4820$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041213003135.63726.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:56:12 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" - Cass Silva X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cass Thanks for your really very good e-mail and explanations... Another pollemics: Don=B4t you think that all this "noise" about the Da Vinci code and the gre= at amount of books and controversies about the life of Jesus has a common g= round and all this subtle "movement" is having an occult impulse? Suddenly lots of information on occult societies, hidden Jesus=B4 life, all= is being spread in every corner , isn=B4t it a "push' from the Masters? People are starting to look at Christendom with much suspicion, and the hid= den secrets of many mystical orgs will surely find open minded and influent= people to gradually change this state of things, at least more than in the= past. Centuries ago a book such as Dan Brown=B4s would of course go to the fire w= ith the author.... I find very healthy people questioning, more and more often and in all nati= ons, inquiring about God and His misteries. Bible itself is a book to put fear in people, because fear can control us. People must learn again to think with freedom. Fear of hell, fear of damnation... and the more people get to know other go= spels that were simply discarded, is very interesting... Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:31 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar I am of irish/english stock. My ex is Portuguese from Lisbon.=20=20 The Borg are one of many species featured in Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. For over 2000 years most religions have pushed a "personal god" to keep t= he devotees in fear of punishment. At the core of every great religion is = the inner that was brought by the Founder, but most religions have totally = lost the inner now, and even claim their God is more powerful than other pe= ople's God, attrocities are committed in God's name, as a political and mor= al justification for murder. Things are changing though, over half the world's population now holds a = philosophy of Karma and Reincarnation and a divine source (non personal) th= at we all share. Things will change quickly, look how far we have come in = the last 200 years.=20=20 For most people, it is very scary to let go of the KNOWN (the personal go= d belief) to grab a hold of THE UNKNOWN (a god within us). And through fear= they rattle the tambourine that defends their God and their belief system,= labelling anyone outside of it, athiest or worse. Keep the faith and kee= p searching for answers. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Cass Are you from Portugal or Brasil? 1.First of all, I apologise for my ignorance of the expression "the borg"= . What is it? 2. The quote you included I am aware of too, I agree with it, mine was ju= st a comment on how things are nowadays, I know that all that is happening = is but part of the divine plan but a cold reading of it sometimes makes me = feel worried about the destiny of mankind=B4s spirituality in this life tim= e of mine!! Many manvantaras will pass though for Man notice the divine ins= ide as a whole. Krishtar BR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives it= s life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is l= inked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all= ideas emanate. Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of in= telligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling = a divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SA= T) revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness = are related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evolu= tionary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are= interested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish ve= rsion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a= God. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries= ... One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of = the ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God= , one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in t= he process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywher= e? I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being= " and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available= free on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory i= s that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together= to create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon d= octrine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are co= llectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have an= y of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by t= his concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 17:23:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40612 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 01:23:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 01:23:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 01:23:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 71016 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Dec 2004 01:23:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jdHgU5q/sAizX9LoO5BeOb4WyKJ3CSx6Gca0iEqgSMvywX92vf6SuqPcNvjEqyRSMLJOwIER2uRGEHPNyX2mi+sBTPpCF5PUWCa4Mcf0nB8djVXvj2fdqVXyOVscR+GIJf1wT2GsVKWzP/DpiPZI5mwMG20j7WhZEJTNR2mkt7I= ; Message-ID: <20041213012350.71014.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:23:50 PST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:23:50 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002001c4e0ae$8a6c4820$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" - Cass Silva X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Krishtar Now we are in the age of Aquarius, it is a time of CHANGE, and of self exam= ination. Jesus came in the age of Pisces to teach men to love each other, = now we are at a new stage of evolution, to examine all our inherited cultur= al and religious beliefs and to open our minds to other possibilities. =20 Unfortunately I haven't read the Da Vinci code but will go on line to see w= hat the author has to say. He is probably repeating what HPB and other The= osophists have been saying for 100 years, but before I comment I must read = what he is saying. =20 This new age will not only shake away the cobwebs from Christendom, but als= o Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all past great religions. For 2000 years w= e have learnt only the exoteric side of these religions, now it is time to = explore the esoteric side. The noble truth at the core of each great relig= ion. Our mentality has evolved to the point that we can no longer accept c= ertain"truths" based on "faith". Logic has to be applied to any belief sys= tem if it worthy of calling itself the TRUTH. THE WORD. There is no such = thing, I believe, as the True Religion, there are many paths to the top of = the mountain. =20 I am sure you are right when you say higher forces are involved in producin= g these changes, "The Key to Theosophy" says that the future state and karm= ic destiny of man depends on whether Manas (Mind) gravitates more downward = to Kama (passions/desires) or upwards to Buddhi (the spiritual)." If we con= tinue to aspire to the good we will be drawn towards Buddhi, through selfis= h choices are are drawn to Kama. The choice is ours. Does it really matter if Jesus, wasn't as the Christians, say the Son of Go= d, but a highly evolved man with a compassion and love for his brother soul= s, who he said about, you are all sons of god. =20 =20 Cass krishtar wrote: Cass Thanks for your really very good e-mail and explanations... Another pollemics: Don=B4t you think that all this "noise" about the Da Vinci code and the gre= at amount of books and controversies about the life of Jesus has a common g= round and all this subtle "movement" is having an occult impulse? Suddenly lots of information on occult societies, hidden Jesus=B4 life, all= is being spread in every corner , isn=B4t it a "push' from the Masters? People are starting to look at Christendom with much suspicion, and the hid= den secrets of many mystical orgs will surely find open minded and influent= people to gradually change this state of things, at least more than in the= past. Centuries ago a book such as Dan Brown=B4s would of course go to the fire w= ith the author.... I find very healthy people questioning, more and more often and in all nati= ons, inquiring about God and His misteries. Bible itself is a book to put fear in people, because fear can control us. People must learn again to think with freedom. Fear of hell, fear of damnation... and the more people get to know other go= spels that were simply discarded, is very interesting... Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:31 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar I am of irish/english stock. My ex is Portuguese from Lisbon.=20 The Borg are one of many species featured in Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. For over 2000 years most religions have pushed a "personal god" to keep the= devotees in fear of punishment. At the core of every great religion is the= inner that was brought by the Founder, but most religions have totally los= t the inner now, and even claim their God is more powerful than other peopl= e's God, attrocities are committed in God's name, as a political and moral = justification for murder. Things are changing though, over half the world's population now holds a ph= ilosophy of Karma and Reincarnation and a divine source (non personal) that= we all share. Things will change quickly, look how far we have come in the= last 200 years.=20 For most people, it is very scary to let go of the KNOWN (the personal god = belief) to grab a hold of THE UNKNOWN (a god within us). And through fear t= hey rattle the tambourine that defends their God and their belief system, l= abelling anyone outside of it, athiest or worse. Keep the faith and keep se= arching for answers. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Cass Are you from Portugal or Brasil? 1.First of all, I apologise for my ignorance of the expression "the borg". = What is it? 2. The quote you included I am aware of too, I agree with it, mine was just= a comment on how things are nowadays, I know that all that is happening is= but part of the divine plan but a cold reading of it sometimes makes me fe= el worried about the destiny of mankind=B4s spirituality in this life time = of mine!! Many manvantaras will pass though for Man notice the divine insid= e as a whole. Krishtar BR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Dear Krishtar We are different from "the Borg" because we have free will. To quote Theosophy The whole Cosmos is guided by an endless heirarchy. Every entity lives its = life in the sphere of a greater being. Every member of the Heirarchy is lin= ked together. Every being or every entity is part of the Divine Plan. Our common origin in in Eternal matter - one infinite mind from which all i= deas emanate. Universe is therefore the result of the manifestation or appearance of inte= lligent and semi intelligent forces. This inner government is fulfilling a = divine plan - evolution. (spiritual) All that occurs is the self realization of the Logos (The Absolute, or SAT)= revealing itself stage by stage and all forms of life and consciousness ar= e related to each other in a ladder of evolution. The higher on the evoluti= onary ladder the more of the Logos is revealed. And all follow a Divine Plan, the laws of which I can give you if you are i= nterested. Cass krishtar wrote: Hi Friend Though I haven=B4t read this book which I own in an electronic Spanish vers= ion, I have a closely view but not that we are invent-ING, build-ING up a G= od. I gess that amost totality of humankind has already DONE it for centuries..= . One good example are the visions of God in the Bible through the lips of th= e ancient psychic whom many call prophets, always antropomorphizing Him. When one tries to prove by reasoning an explanation of a non-personal God, = one is labeled atheist by those who have this antropomorphized view. The most popular vision of God in the globe is still this way. Krishtar ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Smith wrote: I have run across several books that advocate that we, humanity, are in the= process of "creating God" in some way. Have any of you seen this anywhere?= I found it in "The Urantia Book" where it talks about "The Supreme Being" = and also in Harold Percival's "Thinking and Destiny." (Both are available f= ree on the net. I can furnish the URLs if necessary) I guess the theory is = that as we collectively progress in an evolutionary way, we bind together t= o create a "super Being" of some sort. Note that this is not the Mormon doc= trine where we each become Gods, but an evolutionary idea where we are coll= ectively "God". This sounds almost like "The Borg" of scifi fame. Have any = of you heard of this or does anyone else advocate it? I'm fascinated by thi= s concept. Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you live in interesting times!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 12 17:36:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72899 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 01:36:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 01:36:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.11) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 01:36:21 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.107]) by mta1.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 70068820 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:34:57 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041212193532.04e6ac20@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:36:47 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.11 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are most welcome to the list and will look forward to your contributions. All of us are learners and have much to learn. At 05:08 PM 12/11/04 +0000, aupanishad2300 wrote: >aupanishad@msn.com > >I use the name Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali because I once joined the religion >of Islam, and although I quit practicing it after the 1993 WTC >bombings, I still love it and try to live its spirit of love and >peace which is how I understand submission to Allah. > >Andrew Smith >[Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali] ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 12/09/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Dec 12 19:27:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31958 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 03:27:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 03:27:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.108) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 03:27:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:27:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:26:32 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:26:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:26:37 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2004 03:27:01.0177 (UTC) FILETIME=[9BE27290:01C4E0C3] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.108 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Qalandars X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Qalandariyah Encyclop=E6dia Britannica Article=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Page 1 of 1=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20=20 "Loosely organized group of wandering Muslim dervishes who form an =93irreg= ular=94 (bi-shar') or antinomian Sufi mystical order. The Qalandariyah seem= to have arisen from the earlier Malamatiyah in Central Asia and exhibited = Buddhist and perhaps Hindu influences. The adherents of the order were noto= rious for their contempt for the norms of Muslim society, and their use of = drugs." Andrew William Smith, F.T.S., M.A. Qalandar: Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "May you, Inshallah, live in interesting times!" La iliha il-Allah!Anna Muhammadan rasul Allah! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sun Dec 12 22:55:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45013 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 06:55:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 06:55:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 06:55:14 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.76.484f9252 (17079) for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:55:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <76.484f9252.2eee96c5@cs.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:55:01 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.207 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB's "Spirit" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Andrew, I am not contemplating my navel, I was in the Army. John From samblo@cs.com Sun Dec 12 23:16:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36319 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 07:16:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 07:16:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m26.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.7) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 07:16:34 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.82.1d53d988 (17079) for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:16:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <82.1d53d988.2eee9bb9@cs.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:16:09 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.7 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Andrew, So you think the Borg are Sci-fi do you? Well, let me say the Borg are well established and have been for quite a while. Consider the following. Who do you think created that fabulous Broadway Musical "Borgy and Bess?" Haven't you ever drank that certified Wine "Borg and David?" Or have you never bought a Borg and Warner Tool or Auto Part? Haven't you ever stopped to have a delicious burger at Borger King? Who do you think put Walt Disney up to making that Cartoon "Borgy Pig?" Why does every little Hamlet in Germany have a Borgameister? Who do you think that famous Actor Ernest Borg-nine really was? John From leonmaurer@aol.com Mon Dec 13 00:54:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67887 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 08:54:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 08:54:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m25.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.6) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 08:54:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.54.396e96af (3924); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:54:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <54.396e96af.2eeeb2d1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:54:41 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.6 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: How fractal evolution works X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Anyone who wishes to see this picture (which has been removed by the Yahoo mailer) please request me to send it to you directly as both an imbedded animated gif image in the text and as an attachment. leonmaurer@aol.com In a message dated 12/09/04 7:27:36 AM, leonmaurer@aol.com writes: >How fractal evolution works -- to build universes, brains, trees, etc. > >To stop animation click on picture in letter or after downloading and opening >in browser. > >Enjoy, > >Lenny > >[Unable to display image] > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 13 02:14:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15075 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 10:14:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 10:14:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 10:14:05 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-180-008-001.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.180.8.1]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DF83472 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:14:02 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:12:26 -0200 Message-ID: <005e01c4e0fc$3ea68f60$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:12:26 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to mention, John, that almost all of us make a long "borg" sound after a delicious glass of coke. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: samblo@cs.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 5:16 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Andrew, So you think the Borg are Sci-fi do you? Well, let me say the Borg are well established and have been for quite a while. Consider the following. Who do you think created that fabulous Broadway Musical "Borgy and Bess?" Haven't you ever drank that certified Wine "Borg and David?" Or have you never bought a Borg and Warner Tool or Auto Part? Haven't you ever stopped to have a delicious burger at Borger King? Who do you think put Walt Disney up to making that Cartoon "Borgy Pig?" Why does every little Hamlet in Germany have a Borgameister? Who do you think that famous Actor Ernest Borg-nine really was? John Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Mon Dec 13 02:17:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65599 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 10:17:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 10:17:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 10:17:33 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-180-008-001.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.180.8.1]) by smtp4.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996E833E99 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:17:27 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.0]); Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:15:51 -0200 Message-ID: <006e01c4e0fc$b8fd3980$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:15:51 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.180 From: "krishtar" Subject: Bogs everywhere creating "God" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to mention, John, that almost all of us make a long "borg" sound after a delicious glass of coke. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: samblo@cs.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 5:16 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Creating "God" Andrew, So you think the Borg are Sci-fi do you? Well, let me say the Borg are well established and have been for quite a while. Consider the following. Who do you think created that fabulous Broadway Musical "Borgy and Bess?" Haven't you ever drank that certified Wine "Borg and David?" Or have you never bought a Borg and Warner Tool or Auto Part? Haven't you ever stopped to have a delicious burger at Borger King? Who do you think put Walt Disney up to making that Cartoon "Borgy Pig?" Why does every little Hamlet in Germany have a Borgameister? Who do you think that famous Actor Ernest Borg-nine really was? John Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Mon Dec 13 11:52:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42160 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 19:52:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Dec 2004 19:52:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx04.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.14) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 19:52:00 -0000 Received: from 3e6b0854.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.8.84] helo=khidr) by mx04.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1CdwDo-00020y-0O for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:51:04 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01c4e14d$6da55660$54086b3e@khidr> To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:53:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.14 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: See you on the 7th level... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all, My views are: Here is a little comforting story... THE EASY ESCAPE Mulla Nasrudin was coming to after a serious operation. He was just conscious enough to feel the softness of the comfortable bed and the warmth of gentle hands on his forehead. "Where am I?" he asked. "In Heaven?" "NO," said his wife, "I AM STILL RIGHT HERE WITH YOU." from M. Sufilight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rajputks@hotmail.com Mon Dec 13 18:06:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68027 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 02:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 02:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.58) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 02:06:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:06:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.182 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:05:33 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <1102955877.506.90199.m12@yahoogroups.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, satishmehta4@epatra.com, kamal.singhrajput@gmail.com, Gajendrak@hotmail.com, mahendra!1_in@rediffmail.com Bcc: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 07:35:33 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 02:06:02.0200 (UTC) FILETIME=[761F2580:01C4E181] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.58 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.182] Subject: Projection of Astral Body - III X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY – III With the success of the first two experiments on projection of astral body; I got extreme fascination or actually craze for the projection. While going to sleep, I started to feel the astral vibrations. Now and then, whenever I awoke at the astral plane; I found my self as an astral body floating in air just below the ceiling. Some times, I use to find myself above the roof. I could see haze around me. There, I used to plan; where to go and what to do. Many times; I used to loose my consciousness at the astral plane and slipped to deep sleep. I used to fly over the Sagar Lake and above the houses and trees. Rarely, I met persons at the astral plane. These experiments continued for about 5-6 years. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Citibank Suvidha account at No Minimum Balance! http://creative.mediaturf.net/creatives/suvidha/suvidha_hmtagoffline_dec04.htm Apply & get FREE watch! From aupanishad@msn.com Mon Dec 13 18:25:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74996 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 02:25:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 02:25:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.107) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 02:25:23 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:25:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:24:03 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Juan" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Bob" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:24:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:24:09 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 02:25:02.0418 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DBE9B20:01C4E184] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.107 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: [excerpt] Friedrich Nietzsche (n.b. You Cannot Read this Too Many Times) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Madman. Have you ever heard of the madman who on a bright morning lighted a lantern and ran to the market-place calling out unceasingly: "I seek God! I seek God!" As there were many people standing about who did not believe in God, he caused a great deal of amusement. Why? is he lost? said one. Has he strayed away like a child? said another. Or does he keep himself hidden? Is he afraid of us? Has he taken a sea voyage? Has he emigrated? - the people cried out laughingly, all in a hubbub. The insane man jumped into their midst and transfixed them with his glances. "Where is God gone?" he called out. "I mean to tell you! We have killed him, you and I! We are all his murderers! But how have we done it? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the whole horizon? What did we do when we loosened this earth from its sun? Whither does it now move? Whither do we move? Away from all suns? Do we not dash on unceasingly? Backwards, sideways, forwards, in all directions? Is there still an above and below? Do we not stray, as through infinite nothingness? Does not empty space breathe upon us? Has it not become colder? Does not night come on continually, darker and darker? Shall we not have to light lanterns in the morning? Do we not hear the noise of the grave-diggers who are burying God? Do we not smell the divine putrefaction? - for even Gods putrefy! God is dead! God remains dead! And we have killed him! How shall we console ourselves, the most murderous of all murderers? The holiest and the mightiest that the world has hitherto possessed, has bled to death under our knife - who will wipe the blood from us? With what water could we cleanse ourselves? What lustrums, what sacred games shall we have to devise? Is not the magnitude of this deed too great for us? Shall we not ourselves have to become Gods, merely to seem worthy of it? There never was a greater event - and on account of it, all who are born after us belong to a higher history than any history hitherto!" Here the madman was silent and looked again at his hearers; they also were silent and looked at him in surprise. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, so that it broke in pieces and was extinguished. "I come too early," e then said. "I am not yet at the right time. This prodigious event is still on its way, and is traveling - it has not yet reached men's ears. Lightning and thunder need time, the light of the stars needs time, deeds need time, even after they are done, to be seen and heard. This deed is as yet further from them than the furthest star - and yet they have done it themselves!" It is further stated that the madman made his way into different churches on the same day, and there intoned his Requiem aeternam deo. When led out and called to account, he always gave the reply: "What are these churches now, if they are not the tombs and monuments of God?" Andy Smith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 20:01:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87992 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 04:01:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 04:01:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 04:01:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 04:01:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 04:01:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 04:01:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041212033030.3386.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4086 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Dear Andrew I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah a "personal god"? Cass --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Said as a true scientific existensialist. If life is so meaningless why not eat drink and be merry > > Andrew Smith wrote: > > Neo-Heraclitus Sententiae --- 28 Nov 2004 > > "The Red Sea is our blood" > > We are in death in life > > There is no "god" that mankind can "know" > > "Allah" is the richest conception of a deity > > The "conception of deity" is not the "conception of deity" > > Even "Allah" is not "Allah" > > We cannot "know" > > Alcohol is bad for mankind, just as is tobacco > > Coffee and tea is the drink of the Submitters > > There is no perfect religion just as there is no "god" > > The nearest thing to a "god" is DNA > > We only know divinity microscopically, never macroscopically > > The "Red Sea" is DNA > > "Allah" is the aggregate of DNA > > Allah is our (i.e., all living entities') blood > > The "Qur'an" is the most perfect scripture > > "The most perfect scripture" is not "the most perfect scripture" > > The "Mother Book" is DNA > > Muhammad was indeed the last of the Prophets > > "Threats of hell" are for our heedance to be thankful > > "Hopes" of Paradise" are to show that we are of the thankful > > Lack of thankfulness is the greatest sin > > Denial of Allah alone is lack of thankfulness > > If we are not "Beneficent" and "Merciful" we are not thankful > > "Jihad of the nafs" is none other than thankfulness > > "Thankfulness" is not "thankfulness" > > The Beneficent and Merciful is not a bloody God > > Blood pulses in life > > Life is Allah, He the pulse of pulses > > He the Life of life > > When Al-Hallaj was crucified > > When his hands and feet were cut off > > Life still lived in him > > He told the crowd of those who thought they Submitted > > "Ana al-Haq" > > He knew that his lifeblood was not the blood of Allah > > He knew, too, that Allah was his lifeblood > > He whispered, "Oh Allah, if they knew what I know, > > They could never shed my blood" > > What would we shed our blood for? > > My tomcat sheds my blood profusely > > I love him still > > Love and blood purges our Nafs > > Lay not the "Qur'an aside, it is not bloody as the Salafies would have us believe > > It is love, the love of Allah toward man > > And, yet Allah is so far and so close that we cannot find Him > > The Friend is far, but close, Is He not? > > "The Diamond Sutra" of Buddhism tells us > > That the truth is not the truth, because we cannot "pin down" the Truth > > And, yet it exists > > What we can "pin down" is not life > > It is the death of life > > --- Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > > [pseudonym for Andrew W. Smith] > > > > N.B."How can this be? If these Bodhisattvas, Subhuti, should perceive either dharma or adharma, they would think of an ego, a separate entity, a soul or a personality. Therefore the Tathagata has taught this saying with a hidden meaning: 'Those who know that the teachings about dharma are like a raft, should renounce dharma and, even more, renounce adharma.'" > > Buddha asked: "Do you think, Subhuti, that the Tathagata knows any dharma as the ultimate and perfect enlightenment? Has the Tathagata ever set forth such a teaching?" > > Subhuti reponded: "Not according to my understanding of the teachings of the Tathagata. Why? The dharma which the Tathagata fully knows and has set forth can neither be thought nor formulated in words, for it is neither dharma nor adharma." --- From "The Diamond Sutra" > > Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > "May you live in interesting times!" > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yensiare@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 02:38:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: yensiare@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44815 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 10:38:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 10:38:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web51704.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.38.222) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 10:38:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 7040 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Dec 2004 10:38:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Y4/VkV8R2Y/dxkPsUvaNo+DxQvMwys0SkFrY88s3AZMB+NbPNYLP7mhSBLVjcQRqowjE/Ug/sUJHoBwML+107L7T3oXtFcMiAH3itnmZtfytw2Gb8MYdZapxyF23rz3SQV6pPqhf2+Yj63K3cmEFbi6ZrR6XrYbaSsb/LeD7yPo= ; Message-ID: <20041214103820.7038.qmail@web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [219.65.109.98] by web51704.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:38:20 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:38:20 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20041130151411.1961.qmail@web86910.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.190.38.222 From: "ramanujachary n.c." Subject: Re: Theos-World A.E. Powell, and his Books on the Subtle Bodies. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=149545415 X-Yahoo-Profile: yensiare Powell's books are basically compilations from the works of Annie Besant and CWLeadbeater. Those who are not in accord with them are apt to say that 'information' is not accurate. No book can be accurate in the way each individual desires it. Dr Ramanujachary --- robert searle wrote: > > > DEAR ALL, > > I have read somewhere that Powells books > on > the subtle bodies is not completely accurate. How > true > is all this? Also, I would be grateful for any > further > comments on MULTI-DIMENSIONAL SCIENCE, AND THE > RADHASOAMI FAITH. I hope things can liven up a bit > around here, or else I will have to unsubscribe. > > Looking forward to your interested cooperation, and > comments. > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! > Messenger > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > theos-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > ===== DR. N.C.RAMANUJACHARY, BESANT GARDENS, THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, ADYAR,CHENNAI 600 020 PHONE: 044-4913584;044-4903008 THEOSOPHY IS THE BEST RECIPE FOR LIFE. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 06:54:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63819 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 14:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 14:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 14:54:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 14:54:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 14:54:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:54:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1160 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.47 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" wrote: > > Dear Andrew > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah a "personal > god"? > Cass Cass, you can read for yourself, there are many editions of the Qur'an on the NET (I'll add a URL below). Allah is not like old Jehovah or Jesus or even Buddha (who was an agnostic, but who was turned into a god by his followers), but is absolutely unique, what science might call a "singularity." All is Beneficent, Merciful, the Cherisher of His followers, and loves all that He has created. He has allowed humankind the freedom to prove their worthiness for rewards or for punishment for their sins. What I like the best is His "Tawhid" or Oneness, Absolute Unity, pure Monotheism. There is no "trinity" in Him, and there are no other gods to confuse things. I think you may have read or heard some terrible things about the Qur'an, but it's not there. The Qur'an is a pure and wonderful Book to me and to millions of others. I can only recommedn that you you read it for yourself. Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 06:56:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68948 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 14:56:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 14:56:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 14:56:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 14:56:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.145] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 14:56:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:55:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 49 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.28 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: URL for Qur'an X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ Andrew Smith From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 10:25:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91903 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 18:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 18:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 18:25:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 18:24:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Dec 2004 18:24:07 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:24:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1548 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.40 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" wrote: > > Dear Andrew > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah a "personal > god"? > Cass > Cass, Guru Nanak, who was both a Muslim and a Hindu (therefore a Sikh) wrote the following concerning Allah: All things are manifestations of His Will, But His Will is beyond description. By His Will is matter quickened into life, By His Will is greatness obtained, By His Will some are born high and others low. By His Will are men's joys and sorrows ordained, By His Will (the pious) obtain Salvation, By His Will (the impious) wander in endless transmigration. All exist under His Will, And nothing stands outside. One attuned with His Will, O Nanak, is wholly freed from ego. III Some sing of His greatness, but only according to the power bestowed upon them, Some sing of His bounties, taking them as His signs, Some sing of Him as incomprehensible, Some sing of Him, as transmitting dust into life, and life into dust again:Creator and Destroyer, the Giver of life and its Withdrawer. Some sing of Him as at once the nearest, and the most remote, There is no end to His description. Countless have tried to describe Him, but He still stands beyond all description. His recipients may tire, but His bounty is untiring, Ages upon ages, Man has fed upon it. His Will directs the world, And yet, O Nanak, He dwells beyond concern or care. Andrew From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 10:34:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84776 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 18:34:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 18:34:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 18:34:09 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:34:04 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV19.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:33:57 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:34:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:34:04 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 18:34:04.0663 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D392070:01C4E20B] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.123 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: I Am X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the interstices Like Nanak, Kabir, Hafiz And Hallaj, my beloved I worship Allah and Allah alone But between those who try to capture Him Don't try to classify me Allah is in the interstices too Not just in Mecca, Karbala, or Madras Says Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Tue Dec 14 13:03:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40688 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 21:02:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 21:02:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 21:02:34 -0000 Received: from [61.1.104.73] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1CeJoN-0002nd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:32:23 +0530 Message-ID: <004201c4e21f$a561a540$4968013d@k1> To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:27:49 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.73 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Theosophy in Practice X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable www.AnandGholap.net EVERY thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world, and be= comes an active entity by associating itself, coalescing we might term it, = with an elemental=97that is to say, with one of the semi-intelligent forces= of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence=97a creature of the= mind's begetting=97for a longer or shorter period proportionate with the o= riginal intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus a good th= ought is perpetuated as an active, benefi=ADcent power, an evil one as a ma= leficent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space wit= h a world of his own, crowded with the offspring of his fancies, desires, i= mpulses and passions; a current which reacts upon any sensitive or nervous = organization which comes in contact with it, in proportion to its dynamic i= ntensity. The Buddhist calls it his "Skandha"; the Hindu gives it the name = of " Karma". The Adept evolves these shapes consciously; other men throw th= em off unconsciously.1 2 No more graphic picture of the essential nature of karma has ever been give= n than in these words, taken from one of the early letters of Master K. H. = If these are clearly understood, with all their implications, the perplexit= ies which surround the subject will for the most part disappear, and the ma= in principle underly=ADing karmic action will be grasped. They will therefo= re be taken as indicating the best line of study, and we shall begin by con= sidering the creative powers of man. All we need as preface is a clear conc= eption of the invariability of law, and of the great planes in Nature. The Invariability of Law That we live in a realm of law, that we are sur=ADrounded by laws that we c= annot break, this is a truism. Yet when the fact is recognized in a real -a= nd vital way, and when it is seen to be a fact in the mental and moral worl= d as much as in the physical, a certain sense of helplessness is apt to ove= rpower us, as though we felt ourselves in the grip of some mighty power, th= at, seizing us, whirls us away whither it will. The very reverse of this is= in reality the case, for the mighty power, when it is understood, will obe= di=ADently carry us whither we will: all forces in Nature can be used in pr= oportion as they are understood=97 3 " Nature is conquered by obedience "=97and her resistless energies are at o= ur bidding as soon as we, by knowledge, work with them and not against them= . We can choose out of her boundless stores the forces that serve our purpo= se in momentum, in direction, and so on, and their very invariability becom= es the guarantee of our success. On the invariability of law depends the security of scientific experiment, = and all power of planning a result and of predicting the future. On this th= e chemist rests, sure that Nature will ever respond in the same way, if he = be precise in putting his questions. A variation in his results is taken by= him as implying a change in his procedure, not a change in Nature. And so = with all human action; the more it is based on knowledge, the more secure i= s it in its forecastings, for all " accident" is the result of ignorance, a= nd is due to the working of laws whose presence was unknown or overlooked. = In the mental and moral worlds, as much as in the physical, results can be = foreseen, planned for, calculated on. Nature never betrays us; we are betra= yed by our own blindness. In all worlds increasing knowledge means increasi= ng power, and omniscience and omnipotence are one. That law should be as invariable in the mental and moral worlds as in the p= hysical is to be expected, since 4 the universe is the emanation of the ONE, and what we call Law is but the e= xpression of the Divine Nature. As there is one Life emanating all, so ther= e is one Law sustaining all; the worlds rest on this rock of the Divine Nat= ure as on a secure, immutable foundation. The Planes of Nature To study the workings of karma on the line sug=ADgested by the Master, we m= ust gain a clear conception of the three lower planes, or regions, of the u= niverse, and of the principles 1 related to them. The names given to them i= ndicate the state of the consciousness working on them. In this a diagram m= ay help us, showing the planes with the principles related to them, and the= vehicles in which a conscious entity may visit them. In practical occultis= m the student learns to visit these planes, and by his own investigations t= o transform theory into knowledge. The lowest vehicle, the gross body, serv= es the consciousness for its work on the physi=ADcal plane, and in this the= consciousness is limited with=ADin the capacities of the brain. The term s= ubtle body covers a variety of astral bodies, respectively suitable to the = varying conditions of the very complicated region indicated by the name psy= chic plane. On the = =20 5 devachanic plane there are two well-defined levels, the form level and the = formless level; on the lower, consci=ADousness uses an artificial body, the= mayavi rupa, but the term Mind Body seems suitable as indicating that the = matter of which it is composed belongs to the plane of manas. On the formle= ss level the causal body must be used. Of the buddhic plane it is needless = to speak. Now the matter on these planes is not the same, and speaking gene= rally, the matter of each plane is denser than that of the one above it. Th= is is accord=ADing to the analogy of Nature, for evolution in its downward = course is from rare to dense, from subtle to gross. Further, vast hierarchi= es of beings inhabit these planes, ranging from the lofty intelligences of = the spiritual region to the lowest sub-conscious elementals of the physical= world. On every plane spirit and matter are conjoined in every particle=97= -every particle having matter as its body, spirit as its life=97and all ind= ependent aggregations of particles, all separated forms of every kind, of e= very type, are ensouled by these living beings, varying in their grades acc= ording to the grade of the form. No form exists which is not thus ensouled,= but the informing entity may be the loftiest intelligence, the lowest elem= ental, or any of the countless hosts that range between Complete book can be read at http://www.anandgholap.net/Karma-AB.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 14 13:34:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60625 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 21:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 21:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 21:34:56 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-102-051-246.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.51.246]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FAF33ED3 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:34:45 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.3]); Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:33:03 -0200 Message-ID: <005601c4e224$7ddf4220$0301010a@versus> To: References: <004201c4e21f$a561a540$4968013d@k1> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:33:03 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy in Practice_Gholap X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi anand! Anand Gholap among other things quotes this marvellous excerpt:: "EVERY thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world, and b= ecomes an active entity by associating itself, coalescing we might term it,= with an elemental-that is to say, with one of the semi-intelligent forces = of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence-a creature of the mi= nd's begetting-for a longer or shorter period proportionate with the origin= al intensity of the cerebral action which generated it. Thus a good thought= is perpetuated as an active, benefi=ADcent power, an evil one as a malefic= ent demon. And so man is continually peopling his current in space with a w= orld of his own, crowded with the offspring of his fancies, desires, impuls= es and passions; a current which reacts upon any sensitive or nervous organ= ization which comes in contact with it, in proportion to its dynamic intens= ity. The Buddhist calls it his "Skandha"; the Hindu gives it the name of " = Karma". The Adept evolves these shapes consciously; other men throw them of= f unconsciously." A question: Coincidentally I am reading about the same subjects in a G. De Purucker boo= k. Why do spiritists raise so much resistence in believing in the truth behind= the phenomenons? Why do they still insist in atributting to spirits of the beyond all the fe= nomenology involved? Why is it so difficult to dome down the huge throne of egocentrism and see = that what they worship as a God=B4s gift is a " serpent behind " the rose = as in the Voice of Silence? Is it because it is simpler and more adapted to the human=B4s ideas of the = continuation of life in a way so similar to ours?! Questions and questions... Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 14 14:03:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36037 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 22:03:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 22:03:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 22:03:35 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-102-051-246.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.51.246]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C6C3475 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:03:32 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.3]); Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:01:50 -0200 Message-ID: <008201c4e228$8373f380$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:01:50 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic John Ed= wards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead relatives fo= rm his audience...=20 Van Praagh also does this tricks using the cold -reading technique. I would like to know what is the point of view of the people uf USA and Eur= ope. The men are promulgating the same teachings and POV=B4s from the kardecist = spiritists...but using trickery to atract the attention. The technique is very elaborated...a perfect TV show. What is the general opinion in your circles of friendship about it? Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 14:31:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91111 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 22:31:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 22:31:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.121) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 22:31:02 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:31:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV17.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:30:00 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:30:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:30:07 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 22:31:01.0259 (UTC) FILETIME=[96F985B0:01C4E22C] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.121 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: La iliha ilallah X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am an atheist in the interstices Like Nanak, Kabir, Hafiz And Hallaj, my beloved I worship Allah and Allah alone In between those sects which try to capture Him Don't try to classify me in any sect Allah is in the interstices Not just in Mecca, Karbala, or Madras (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali N.B. "God" (whom I like to call "Allah" due to it's radical montheistic tone) simply can't be known in any way possible except as a feeling in our "heart" (mind). Allah is an instinctive presence, as Meister Eckhart, the German Christian mystic, understood. Like many other mystics, I would rather call myself an atheist than to try to speak about or for Allah. I am atheistic about all other gods, and Allah is only Allah, "La iliha ilallah." Salaam Alaikum, Andrew W. Smith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 14:35:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14299 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 22:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 22:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.60) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 22:35:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:35:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV30.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:34:18 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:34:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:34:25 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2004 22:35:01.0755 (UTC) FILETIME=[26524CB0:01C4E22D] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.60 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: RE: Nietzsche X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger. Nietzsche Salaam Alaikum, Andrew W. Smith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 15:26:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51800 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 23:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 23:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 23:26:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 3059 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Dec 2004 23:26:57 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=t9e0BcaLBEwT4JnLvUraALRdKTHkvpqVlJu4WBC2+A0eRcIbWeZiXL6eoy5FXXAcw55yAgjCE8TY0Yt0FFwVt83HJ1MV6j7xvzbDdE2ulVoCUCpobQEH/s5O1KOdGlQxMXYk+PVwzf1vKHTrhh77GKV/v62t0R8OPnPY+Y4HKts= ; Message-ID: <20041214232657.3057.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:26:57 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:26:57 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Andrew Who wrote it? "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" wrote: > > Dear Andrew > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah a "personal > god"? > Cass Cass, you can read for yourself, there are many editions of the Qur'an on the NET (I'll add a URL below). Allah is not like old Jehovah or Jesus or even Buddha (who was an agnostic, but who was turned into a god by his followers), but is absolutely unique, what science might call a "singularity." All is Beneficent, Merciful, the Cherisher of His followers, and loves all that He has created. He has allowed humankind the freedom to prove their worthiness for rewards or for punishment for their sins. What I like the best is His "Tawhid" or Oneness, Absolute Unity, pure Monotheism. There is no "trinity" in Him, and there are no other gods to confuse things. I think you may have read or heard some terrible things about the Qur'an, but it's not there. The Qur'an is a pure and wonderful Book to me and to millions of others. I can only recommedn that you you read it for yourself. Andrew Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 15:38:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57616 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 23:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 23:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41506.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.89) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 23:38:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 85142 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Dec 2004 23:38:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NUDQV/ltt12r/uO56te5YqwLNheJzWzMIWuK2vtVfqiMtekD1s9+iExHqLJu77CWq6VbIEj0nf5r9IGYHIcxkpN5i7wBOJOrWNURAq9Kgn/9ooZk5Dwy1VH4Xzs+6tFd2s0Nd9XsXM6urBahLThaZvyLwnX/uzYRZDGGpIk66b4= ; Message-ID: <20041214233855.85140.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41506.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:38:55 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:38:55 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <008201c4e228$8373f380$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.89 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable krishtar wrote: Friends I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic John Ed= wards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead relatives for= m his audience...=20 =20 Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? Besides, John Edwards is not English, he is an American from LonggEyeland (= that=92s the usual local pronunciation of Long Island by the locals. Tell = them that, and they will respond with, "Really? Nooo. I don=92t say it tha= t way. I say =91Long Island=92 ") =20 The men are promulgating the same teachings and POV=B4s from the kardecist = spiritists...but using trickery to atract the attention. =20 Trickery? Again, how do you know? Any proof? =20 The reason I am asking this is not to attack you. But simply asking for pro= of.=20=20 =20 For a University of Arizona study by Dr. Gary Schwartz on the so-called psy= chics, including John Edwards, please see http://www.openmindsciences.com/.= John Edwards had one of the highest hit percentage among those tested. = =20 =20 Some links that has reviews on the book and John Edwards are the ff: http:/= /www.johnedwardfriends.org/links/links-schwartz.shtml =20 http://www.openmindsciences.com/hbo-exp.htm =20 Loreto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 14 15:51:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1146 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2004 23:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2004 23:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2004 23:51:45 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeMSH-0001kN-Ds for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:51:45 -0500 Message-ID: <41BF7C65.60002@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:51:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041214233855.85140.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041214233855.85140.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba98651ab2f8836f06a361f48be9e6daa63ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Towers1209 wrote: > I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic > John Edwards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead > relatives form his audience... > > Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? Well, actually, the burden of proof is on him that he is psychic. However, here's an interesting article on the subject: http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html Bart From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 16:07:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94546 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 00:07:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 00:07:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 00:07:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:07:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:07:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:07:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41BF7C65.60002@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 735 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "traveller1209" X-Originating-IP: 148.177.1.213 Subject: Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 With due respect, Bart. This message is not addressed to you. But, of course, you are always free to do whatever yuo want with it. But, etiquette requires that one does not address stuff not intended for him. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Towers1209 wrote: > > I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo- psychic > > John Edwards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead > > relatives form his audience... > > > > Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? > > Well, actually, the burden of proof is on him that he is psychic. > However, here's an interesting article on the subject: > > http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html > > Bart From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 16:26:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18493 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:26:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:26:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041214232657.3057.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1978 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World A Poem and an Explanation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Dear Andrew > Who wrote it? > > "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" > wrote: > > > > Dear Andrew > > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah > a "personal > > god"? > > Cass > Cass, you can read for yourself, there are many editions of the > Qur'an on the NET (I'll add a URL below). Allah is not like old > Jehovah or Jesus or even Buddha (who was an agnostic, but who was > turned into a god by his followers), but is absolutely unique, what > science might call a "singularity." All is Beneficent, Merciful, the > Cherisher of His followers, and loves all that He has created. He > has allowed humankind the freedom to prove their worthiness for > rewards or for punishment for their sins. What I like the best is > His "Tawhid" or Oneness, Absolute Unity, pure Monotheism. There is > no "trinity" in Him, and there are no other gods to confuse things. > I think you may have read or heard some terrible things about the > Qur'an, but it's not there. The Qur'an is a pure and wonderful Book > to me and to millions of others. I can only recommedn that you you > read it for yourself. > > Andrew > > >Cass, The Holy Qur'an was dictated to Muhammad by Allah's creation, the angel Gabrial (Jabril), who was the same one who gave Mary her annunciation about her pregnancy with Jesus, another Muslim Prophet. Allah spoke to Mary through Gabrail and said "BE" and He was, and became Allah's Prophet. When the end of ages come, Jesus will say salat (prayers)alongside the Prophet Muhammad. Salaam Alaikum, (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 14 16:39:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15352 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 00:39:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 00:39:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 00:39:55 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeNCr-0007Mw-V1 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:39:54 -0500 Message-ID: <41BF87DD.4070902@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:39:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba72bf9934bc5beb69a0bfe676bd11a0ca795b3f24a9f74b7f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 traveller1209 wrote: > With due respect, Bart. This message is not addressed to you. But, > of course, you are always free to do whatever yuo want with it. > > But, etiquette requires that one does not address stuff not intended > for him. If a message is supposed to be private, then SEND IT IN PRIVATE!!!! I have been active in online discussion since before you even HEARD of the Internet, and I have NEVER heard that rule of "etiquette" before. Bart From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 16:46:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24687 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 00:46:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 00:46:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 00:46:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:46:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 00:46:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:46:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2220 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.46 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: THE QURAN X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass I meant who wrote the Quran? --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > Dear Andrew > > Who wrote it? > > > > "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "silva_cass" > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Andrew > > > I have read that the Quran is a moral and ethical guide for its > > > followers. How does the Quran explain Allah? Is Allah > > a "personal > > > god"? > > > Cass > > Cass, you can read for yourself, there are many editions of the > > Qur'an on the NET (I'll add a URL below). Allah is not like old > > Jehovah or Jesus or even Buddha (who was an agnostic, but who was > > turned into a god by his followers), but is absolutely unique, what > > science might call a "singularity." All is Beneficent, Merciful, > the > > Cherisher of His followers, and loves all that He has created. He > > has allowed humankind the freedom to prove their worthiness for > > rewards or for punishment for their sins. What I like the best is > > His "Tawhid" or Oneness, Absolute Unity, pure Monotheism. There is > > no "trinity" in Him, and there are no other gods to confuse things. > > I think you may have read or heard some terrible things about the > > Qur'an, but it's not there. The Qur'an is a pure and wonderful Book > > to me and to millions of others. I can only recommedn that you you > > read it for yourself. > > > > Andrew > > > > > >Cass, > The Holy Qur'an was dictated to Muhammad by Allah's creation, the > angel Gabrial (Jabril), who was the same one who gave Mary her > annunciation about her pregnancy with Jesus, another Muslim Prophet. > Allah spoke to Mary through Gabrail and said "BE" and He was, and > became Allah's Prophet. When the end of ages come, Jesus will say > salat (prayers)alongside the Prophet Muhammad. > > Salaam Alaikum, > (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rajputks@hotmail.com Tue Dec 14 18:03:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84836 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 02:03:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 02:03:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 02:03:14 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:03:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.24 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:02:51 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <1103048392.672.62223.m12@yahoogroups.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, pasqualina@pasqualina.com, kamal.singhrajput@gmail.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:32:51 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Dec 2004 02:03:01.0806 (UTC) FILETIME=[3502F4E0:01C4E24A] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.81 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.24] Subject: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY – IV One fine morning, my eldest daughter Alka woke up very much terrified. She told me how she saw her self standing away from her body. My wife was equally worried. This was Alka’s first out of body experience. I had never told her about astral body and its projection. The situation demanded that I explain her about the existence of astral body and its projection. Alka calmed down. Due to chronic illness, Alka had become quite weak. She complained to me that when she goes to sleep; her astral body gets ejected automatically. During this state, she is able to witness every activity going around. She calls the members of the family but no one hears. “Whenever I want to enter my physical body; I am to keep on trying for very long time and I get very much tired.” She told. She also said that whenever I used to call her; her astral body quickly enters the physical. We picked up the clue. Whenever, Alka used to go to sleep during the day; I used to call her every 15 minutes or so. The problem of difficult entry of the astral to the physical was solved. I was in a subconscious state in my bed at night. I was in a mosquito net. Room light was on. Suddenly, I saw a sudden increase in the intensity of light in the room. Alka in her astral body was standing beside my bed. She appeared like a white angel glowing with light. Her astral body appeared to consist of glowing mist or dense steam. Alka kissed me and I kissed her and I asked her, “ Let us go together.” And we went together in our astral bodies. Afterwards, I slipped into deep sleep. Next morning, I asked Alka whether she came to my room in astral form. She abruptly exclaimed, “ HAN PAPA MAIN TO PAKDI GAI.” (YES PAPA I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT). ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Microsoft’s festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous holiday! From aupanishad@msn.com Tue Dec 14 18:33:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36625 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 02:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 02:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 02:33:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 02:33:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.113] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 02:33:27 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:33:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2778 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Kamal Singh Rajput"=20 wrote: > PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY =96 IV >=20 > One fine morning, my eldest daughter Alka woke up=20 very much=20 > terrified. She told me how she saw her self standing away from her=20 body. My=20 > wife was equally worried. This was Alka's first out of body=20 experience. I=20 > had never told her about astral body and its projection. The=20 situation=20 > demanded that I explain her about the existence of astral body and=20 its=20 > projection. Alka calmed down. >=20 > Due to chronic illness, Alka had become quite=20 weak. She=20 > complained to me that when she goes to sleep; her astral body gets=20 ejected=20 > automatically. During this state, she is able to witness every=20 activity=20 > going around. She calls the members of the family but no one hears.=20 > "Whenever I want to enter my physical body; I am to keep on trying=20 for very=20 > long time and I get very much tired." She told. She also said that=20 whenever=20 > I used to call her; her astral body quickly enters the physical. >=20 > We picked up the clue. Whenever, Alka used to go=20 to sleep=20 > during the day; I used to call her every 15 minutes or so. The=20 problem of=20 > difficult entry of the astral to the physical was solved. >=20 > I was in a subconscious state in my bed at=20 night. I was=20 > in a mosquito net. Room light was on. Suddenly, I saw a sudden=20 increase in=20 > the intensity of light in the room. Alka in her astral body was=20 standing=20 > beside my bed. She appeared like a white angel glowing with light.=20 Her=20 > astral body appeared to consist of glowing mist or dense steam.=20 Alka kissed=20 > me and I kissed her and I asked her, " Let us go together." And we=20 went=20 > together in our astral bodies. Afterwards, I slipped into deep=20 sleep. >=20 > Next morning, I asked Alka whether she came to my=20 room in=20 > astral form. She abruptly exclaimed, " HAN PAPA MAIN TO PAKDI=20 GAI." (YES=20 > PAPA I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT). >=20 >=20 > ...Kamal-S-Rajput... IMHO this cannot be true, unless it is true b___s___. Why do we have=20 a plethora of hearsay evidence for such things, and not a scintilla=20 of scientific, or objective, evidence for such things? Each is=20 entitled to their own fantastic illusions and stories, but, like HPB,=20 I believe these things need to be investigated much, much deeper to=20 prevent charlantry and self-delusion. Are we as de=20 facto "Theosophists" bound to believe everything we hear or see by=20 subjective psychics? >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Microsoft's festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC.=20 > http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous=20 holiday! From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 19:06:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63753 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 03:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 03:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 03:06:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 03:06:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Dec 2004 03:06:32 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 03:06:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2490 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Loyd Auerbach's Two Out-of-Body Experiences X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Loyd Auerbach (parapsychologist and magician) New York 1970s It was while I was working at the ASPR [American Society for Psychical Research: http://www.aspr.com/ ] in New York, interacting with Alex [Tanous]quite a bit, that my own first OBEs happened. In the first situation, I had a very vivid dream which involved traveling to a friend's house about forty miles away. A couple of days later, my friend, who has more than just the average smattering of psychic ability, asked me if I had had a dream about visiting her on the night in question. When I replied "Yes, how did you know?" (a silly question, perhaps), she said that I had been there, "physically." Apparently, I had somehow been seen and touched by her (her dog reacted to me as well) at the time I believed I had been home dreaming. Now, assuming that I didn't sleep-drive to her house forty miles away, she either actually saw me, picked up on my dream psychically, or was just making a lucky guess. Wait, there's more. Two weeks later, I was at another friend's bachelor party, becoming very bored (sorry about that, Mike) while the other guys were watching a few of those colorful super-8 movies. I stood in the kitchen, fixing a drink and feeling a bit strange. Having felt the same way before when I had a few other experiences (my best psychic state appears to be boredom), I suddenly had the sensation of being in two places at once. I was in Mike's kitchen and I was also standing in my friend Danita's living room (same person as in the previous OBE). We had a short conversation, partly about the bachelor party, partly about other things, and I recall her saying she knew I was having an OBE and was only "dropping in." I mentioned that I'd write down a few notes when I "got back" to Mike's, and said good-bye. I found paper and pen, wrote a few notes (time, conversation details, etc.), which coincided with what Danita remembered about the situation. Quoted from: Loyd Auerbach's ESP, HAUNTINGS AND POLTERGEISTS, 1986, pp. 43-44. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446349518 Many articles from the pen of Loyd Auerbach are online at: http://www.mindreader.com/fate/index.htm ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. From adelasie@sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 14 19:34:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: adelasie@sbcglobal.net@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47303 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 03:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 03:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.168.181) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 03:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alphanumeric) (adelasie@sbcglobal.net@66.122.77.145 with login) by smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 03:34:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:34:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <41BF4039.203.174BCF5@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.163.168.181 From: "adelasie" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=161282999 Andrew, Regarding your question: Are we as de facto "Theosophists" bound > to believe everything we hear or see by subjective psychics? Certainly not. We only have to wait until it happens to us to find if we believe or not. But it doesn't hurt to consider that such things could be true, to lessen the shock in the future eventuality of having such an experience ourselves. Adelasie > From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 20:23:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74099 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:23:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 69986 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 04:23:32 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=6AwVVfam2SfSdFS1OOmxj7+9thx1/MJ4XiEKQgDLnOz1vQKSrNqp/jJX1IxQ8UDDwEkyV5wpeQvLafUj3Cix2vjpgK2J1SilhEvsXHCsEaj7reZ48TnVGu2bnSfG4ZtBsLSghf1dT78hVIXT8ss2ecW2Y0wyIl3BRphXhLm1u7k= ; Message-ID: <20041215042332.69984.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:23:32 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:23:32 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.75 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Andrew Is this experience so different to Muhammed's flight to heaven on the Winge= d Horse Creature where he met the four prophets? Wasnt Muhammed beyond sp= ace and time? Did not his spirit soar to the Heavens? What verification d= oes Islam have of this other than Muhammed's word? Cass "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Kamal Singh Rajput"=20 wrote: > PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY =96 IV >=20 > One fine morning, my eldest daughter Alka woke up=20 very much=20 > terrified. She told me how she saw her self standing away from her=20 body. My=20 > wife was equally worried. This was Alka's first out of body=20 experience. I=20 > had never told her about astral body and its projection. The=20 situation=20 > demanded that I explain her about the existence of astral body and=20 its=20 > projection. Alka calmed down. >=20 > Due to chronic illness, Alka had become quite=20 weak. She=20 > complained to me that when she goes to sleep; her astral body gets=20 ejected=20 > automatically. During this state, she is able to witness every=20 activity=20 > going around. She calls the members of the family but no one hears.=20 > "Whenever I want to enter my physical body; I am to keep on trying=20 for very=20 > long time and I get very much tired." She told. She also said that=20 whenever=20 > I used to call her; her astral body quickly enters the physical. >=20 > We picked up the clue. Whenever, Alka used to go=20 to sleep=20 > during the day; I used to call her every 15 minutes or so. The=20 problem of=20 > difficult entry of the astral to the physical was solved. >=20 > I was in a subconscious state in my bed at=20 night. I was=20 > in a mosquito net. Room light was on. Suddenly, I saw a sudden=20 increase in=20 > the intensity of light in the room. Alka in her astral body was=20 standing=20 > beside my bed. She appeared like a white angel glowing with light.=20 Her=20 > astral body appeared to consist of glowing mist or dense steam.=20 Alka kissed=20 > me and I kissed her and I asked her, " Let us go together." And we=20 went=20 > together in our astral bodies. Afterwards, I slipped into deep=20 sleep. >=20 > Next morning, I asked Alka whether she came to my=20 room in=20 > astral form. She abruptly exclaimed, " HAN PAPA MAIN TO PAKDI=20 GAI." (YES=20 > PAPA I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT). >=20 >=20 > ...Kamal-S-Rajput... IMHO this cannot be true, unless it is true b___s___. Why do we have=20 a plethora of hearsay evidence for such things, and not a scintilla=20 of scientific, or objective, evidence for such things? Each is=20 entitled to their own fantastic illusions and stories, but, like HPB,=20 I believe these things need to be investigated much, much deeper to=20 prevent charlantry and self-delusion. Are we as de=20 facto "Theosophists" bound to believe everything we hear or see by=20 subjective psychics? >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Microsoft's festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC.=20 > http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous=20 holiday! Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:26:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54273 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:26:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m14.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.204) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:26:58 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.dc.1bcfb35b (24895) for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:26:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:26:49 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.204 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 4:08:22 PM Central Standard Time, krishtar_a@brturbo.com writes: << What is the general opinion in your circles of friendship about it? >> That Edwards is a fraud, of course. Now, if I could contact someone dead who knew how to pick horses... Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:27:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13948 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:27:58 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.19a.2cde0420 (24895) for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:27:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19a.2cde0420.2ef11746@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:27:50 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.38 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Nietzsche X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 4:39:27 PM Central Standard Time, aupanishad@msn.com writes: << Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger >> Out of life's reform school: What does not destroy me makes me wish I had managed to avoid it. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:30:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2443 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:30:11 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.8b.1c97a759 (24895) for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:30:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8b.1c97a759.2ef117cb@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:30:03 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.5 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 6:41:38 PM Central Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << If a message is supposed to be private, then SEND IT IN PRIVATE!!!! I have been active in online discussion since before you even HEARD of the Internet, and I have NEVER heard that rule of "etiquette" before. Bart >> Neither have I, not that we abide by rules in this bunch anyway. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:32:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94201 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:32:03 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1f9.3558979 (24895) for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:31:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f9.3558979.2ef11838@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:31:52 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.137 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THE QURAN X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 6:51:28 PM Central Standard Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: << I meant who wrote the Quran? >> Fred the Minor Angel of the 34th Chorus, 75th row, seat 15. He put on a Gabriel mask and played a really nasty prank on poor Mohammed. Chuck the Heretic From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Dec 14 20:47:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40334 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 04:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 04:47:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 04:47:27 -0000 Received: from [10.1.1.3] (200-101-197-225.fnsce7007.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.101.197.225]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A9833E64 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:47:24 -0200 (BRST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.290 [265.5.3]); Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:45:35 -0200 Message-ID: <004501c4e260$ea953000$0301010a@versus> To: References: <20041214233855.85140.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:45:35 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar - X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Loreto Well, after reading not so many theosophical books, from CWL to HPB and al= ways trying to put into practise what they claim and experienced, visiting = psychic men and women and challenging my natural tendency for a healthy ske= ptcism, watching the programs of John Edwards ( I thought he was English, s= orry for the mistake) it became clear to me that he is kinda trickster.( TO= ME ) What he does is a show, because a true psychic doesn=B4t expose himself as= he does and would not even charge about U$500 for a private s=E9ance... If he is a serious person, I don=B4t know yet, I am still making my researc= hes, so my opinion is not conclusive. If we pay more atention to the explanations on the after-death states in b= ooks from HPB, Yogi Ramach=E1raka, CWL, Mahatma Letters to AP Sinnet and ot= hers, what I conclude is, if he were really contacting the "souls in heav= en " as he claims, most of them would be a great amount of Kamarupas and E= lementals. The description he gives alive is too elementary, looks like the first book= s on spiritualism at the times of Colonel Olcott. But if you watch the programs with indifference, you can see clearly that s= omething not genuine happens... Although I believe in the communication between different planes of existen= ce, what Edwards is showing is just his show Watch out for Cold Reading/John Edwards in the net and you=B4ll see what I = am talking about.=20 The link http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html that Bart sent is al= so interesting... Well they=B4re just my views... Regards Krishtar krishtar wrote: Friends I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic John Ed= wards claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead relatives for= m his audience...=20 =20 Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? Besides, John Edwards is not English, he is an American from LonggEyeland (= that's the usual local pronunciation of Long Island by the locals. Tell th= em that, and they will respond with, "Really? Nooo. I don't say it that wa= y. I say 'Long Island' ") =20 The men are promulgating the same teachings and POV=B4s from the kardecist = spiritists...but using trickery to atract the attention. =20 Trickery? Again, how do you know? Any proof? =20 The reason I am asking this is not to attack you. But simply asking for pro= of.=20=20 =20 For a University of Arizona study by Dr. Gary Schwartz on the so-called psy= chics, including John Edwards, please see http://www.openmindsciences.com/.= John Edwards had one of the highest hit percentage among those tested. = =20 =20 Some links that has reviews on the book and John Edwards are the ff: http:/= /www.johnedwardfriends.org/links/links-schwartz.shtml =20 http://www.openmindsciences.com/hbo-exp.htm =20 Loreto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 21:25:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93150 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 05:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 05:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 05:25:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 37829 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 05:25:47 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ncq7b59l+unU7HhFUN1HHcE7D0rj52mmMC44DYAh3cKM8zeq6XyWTqi3crbjdLiSaNSJiBkrU1IT54alTTZAy3GXZVQWMqbp5Hb5LP0+RO8LZwxPYnYs0BTblBgK+7dZKvec5L0oTXcjHfGOB/o49OZewPQjn+OwD2Xv9MpRxwg= ; Message-ID: <20041215052547.37827.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:25:47 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:25:47 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <8b.1c97a759.2ef117cb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Careful, or we will take your name literally!! Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/14/04 6:41:38 PM Central Standard Time,=20 bartl@sprynet.com writes: << If a message is supposed to be private, then SEND IT IN PRIVATE!!!! I=20 have been active in online discussion since before you even HEARD of the=20 Internet, and I have NEVER heard that rule of "etiquette" before. Bart >> Neither have I, not that we abide by rules in this bunch anyway. Chuck the Heretic Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! =96 Try it today!=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Dec 14 21:32:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7743 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 05:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 05:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.66) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 05:32:51 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeRmM-0003QB-KR for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:32:50 -0500 Message-ID: <41BFCC86.8030405@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:32:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041215052547.37827.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041215052547.37827.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba053a9f2845cf5bc3934159107a85bb9330febb85a5f48815350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.66 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Cass Silva wrote: > Careful, or we will take your name literally!! Dr. Psionic, or Chuck the Heretic? Near as I can tell, both are meant to be taken literally. Well, I'm not SURE he has a doctorate.... Bart From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 21:46:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59197 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 05:46:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 05:46:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.77) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 05:46:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 16419 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 05:45:44 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=FH3ehzniHJiC/hPNmmsb5IGnILBu9Ttj5BhDpZO40Z/TV617ql1el72FQD1MoN++tjqH1XaDifSwZg8ygrVdUmUjpZYzja2GxkeKhu+UNGGxqiPGu1goCjeUsTJdJkROKrSlVRfPG5qg/I/GImrDNqJqAXVDny0jOP+Vb+uPyGU= ; Message-ID: <20041215054544.16417.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:45:44 PST Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:45:44 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41BFCC86.8030405@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.77 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where does he practice, by the rivers of babylon? chuck in Oz language means chuck-out, but I meant it in fun. Cass Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > Careful, or we will take your name literally!! Dr. Psionic, or Chuck the Heretic? Near as I can tell, both are meant to be taken literally. Well, I'm not SURE he has a doctorate.... Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Tue Dec 14 23:48:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27109 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 07:48:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 07:48:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 07:48:23 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.155.45fd0b2d (4196) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:48:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <155.45fd0b2d.2ef14640@cs.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:48:16 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.208 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Chuck, Have you tried making contact with dead Horses? John From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Dec 15 04:34:57 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70413 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 12:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 12:34:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 12:34:56 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1f5.35743c6 (4568) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:33:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f5.35743c6.2ef1891f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:33:35 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.137 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 11:27:24 PM Central Standard Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: << Careful, or we will take your name literally!! >> Could be worse. I could get called late for dinner. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Dec 15 04:35:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63505 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 12:35:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 12:35:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m19.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.11) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 12:35:40 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.da.1b0d2ca3 (4568) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:35:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:35:23 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.11 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/14/04 11:48:02 PM Central Standard Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: << Where does he practice, by the rivers of babylon? >> Wherever they pay me. Of course I have to keep practicing because I can never get it quite right. Chuck the Heretic From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Dec 15 04:38:11 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63991 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 12:38:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 12:38:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 12:38:08 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.15c.45caa377 (4568) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:37:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15c.45caa377.2ef18a1b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 07:37:47 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.38 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/15/04 1:51:57 AM Central Standard Time, samblo@cs.com writes: << Have you tried making contact with dead Horses? >> No. They tend to be rather inarticulate. Chuck the Heretic From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Wed Dec 15 06:37:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68967 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 14:37:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 14:37:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-a065c32.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.247) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 14:37:03 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.82.194.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.82.194]) by pop-a065c32.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CeaH0-00050J-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 06:37:03 -0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.296 [265.5.3]); Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:36:56 -0500 Message-ID: <002f01c4e2b3$86483900$c2529904@JoeyMeredith> To: References: <15c.45caa377.2ef18a1b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:36:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.121.247 From: "Bill Meredith" Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille Shame there's no money in pig racing. I speak igpa atinla uentlyfla. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV > > In a message dated 12/15/04 1:51:57 AM Central Standard Time, > samblo@cs.com > writes: > > << Have you tried making contact with dead Horses? >> > > No. They tend to be rather inarticulate. > > Chuck the Heretic > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.3 - Release Date: 12/14/2004 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.3 - Release Date: 12/14/2004 From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Dec 15 08:02:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40533 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 16:02:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 16:02:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 16:02:54 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.143.3adf5df2 (4560) for ; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:02:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <143.3adf5df2.2ef1ba20@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:02:40 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.208 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/15/04 8:39:25 AM Central Standard Time, meredith_bill@earthlink.net writes: << Shame there's no money in pig racing. >> For some bizarre reason I have a vision of police cars speeding along a track chasing an electric donut. Chuck the Heretic From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 09:28:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53999 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 17:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 17:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41501.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.84) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 17:28:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 38471 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 17:28:25 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=zOTvDBkVibcFHOruVnCu/MaRnZMp1/BNxgSvj7xMtxdfwrokmHsrgnlyf0smC7r13Iu/cJxGXe+KFX99oBr0fbbECrx2GBFC7D9i/NI04bIHtVuSGtRE0sfS4aFWMIzP1A6H7Vmlk3EyClKoEGKdfwO87Vhcg/x4JbjgU2vASdo= ; Message-ID: <20041215172825.38469.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:28:25 PST Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:28:25 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <004501c4e260$ea953000$0301010a@versus> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.84 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World John Edwards and Van Praagh at TV -- Khristar - X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Khristar. =20 Thanks for the reply. =20 I might have been a little abrupt in my initial response to your post. And= I must apologize if it sounded that way. =20 However, my reply was meant to simply to point out that one must be careful= in =93labeling=94 people without any solid proof and simply basing one=92s= strong statement simply based on feelings or initial impressions. =20 I would like to say that I have had my doubts about John Edward and his sho= w when I first saw it. However, after watching more than a few shows and a= lso doing my own investigation, I have come to my own personal conclusion t= hat there might be something to it that =93may be worth considering=94. = =20 =20 Having had my own psychic experiences and a visit or two from my mother a f= ew days before she died and one day quite a few months after, one cannot to= tally dismiss this kind of =91claims=94 (of contact from the other side) by= others. =20 To my mind, a true skeptic may not totally dismiss something, and label it = as fake, simply because the event (too "showy" and smack of a staged show")= and the associated concepts, ideas, and experiences does not fall within o= ne=92s realm of current understanding and personal experience =96 whether i= t is in a laboratory or in personal life. Of course, the issue is always t= he repeatability of the experience. =20 I am a new theosophist and have only read excerpts of HPB=92s writings. (To= my mind, being able to read and understand HPB=92s and other=92s writings = will require more than one lifetime of experience.). And even then, I don= =92t fully believe all of HPB=92s concepts and ideas but am simply open to= the possibility that HPB=92s =93descriptions of her approximations of =91r= eality=92 =93 may be true. =20 That is to say, that I do not totally accept the writings of HPB=92s, CWL, = Ramacharaka, etc, =93as gospel truths or the complete and total description= of the ultimate reality=94 by which each and everyone=92s experiences and = claims must be measured against. I see these writings as =93their view of = things according to their experience that is worth looking into.=94 =20 I suggest that one look at these claims and events of the paranormal not wi= th =93indifference=94 (as you have mentioned on your email) but with an =93= open and truly critical mind=94. =20 I am also aware of the criticisms, especially of CSICOP (http://www.csicop.= org/si/2001-11/i-files.html.) I simply did not add it to my list of links = in my response to you, since I had the thinking that you are much too much = aware of all the negativc criticisms and you might not be aware of the othe= r side of it. To my mind, CSICOP=92s point of view (which, of course is al= ways worth looking into) is rather on the negative extreme. =20 And "that" in a nutshell why I replied to your post. I also appreciate y= our reply and explaining your point of view on the matter. =20 That=92s all for now and this will be my last post on the topic. =20 =20 Loreto krishtar wrote:=20 Hi Loreto Well, after reading not so many theosophical books, from CWL to HPB and alw= ays trying to put into practise what they claim and experienced, visiting p= sychic men and women and challenging my natural tendency for a healthy skep= tcism, watching the programs of John Edwards ( I thought he was English, so= rry for the mistake) it became clear to me that he is kinda trickster.( TO = ME ) What he does is a show, because a true psychic doesn=B4t expose himself as = he does and would not even charge about U$500 for a private s=E9ance... If he is a serious person, I don=B4t know yet, I am still making my researc= hes, so my opinion is not conclusive. If we pay more atention to the explanations on the after-death states in bo= oks from HPB, Yogi Ramach=E1raka, CWL, Mahatma Letters to AP Sinnet and oth= ers, what I conclude is, if he were really contacting the "souls in heaven = " as he claims, most of them would be a great amount of Kamarupas and Eleme= ntals. The description he gives alive is too elementary, looks like the first book= s on spiritualism at the times of Colonel Olcott. But if you watch the programs with indifference, you can see clearly that s= omething not genuine happens... Although I believe in the communication between different planes of existen= ce, what Edwards is showing is just his show Watch out for Cold Reading/John Edwards in the net and you=B4ll see what I = am talking about.=20 The link http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/i-files.html that Bart sent is al= so interesting... Well they=B4re just my views... Regards Krishtar >>krishtar wrote: >>Friends >>I got astonished by the TV show in which the english pseudo-psychic John = Edwards >> claims and ( broadcasts ) his " contacts" with the Dead relatives form h= is audience...=20 >Pseudo-psychic? How do you know? Any proof? >Besides, John Edwards is not English, he is an American from LonggEyeland = (that's=20 >the usual local pronunciation of Long Island by the locals. Tell them that= , and they will=20 >respond with, "Really? Nooo. I don't say it that way. I say 'Long Island' = ") >>The men are promulgating the same teachings and POV=B4s from the kardecis= t=20 >>spiritists...but using trickery to atract the attention. >Trickery? Again, how do you know? Any proof? >The reason I am asking this is not to attack you. But simply asking for pr= oof.=20 >For a University of Arizona study by Dr. Gary Schwartz on the so-called ps= ychics, >Including John Edwards, please see http://www.openmindsciences.com/. John= =20 >Edwards had one of the highest hit percentage among those tested.=20 >Some links that has reviews on the book and John Edwards are the ff:=20 >http://www.johnedwardfriends.org/links/links-schwartz.shtml >http://www.openmindsciences.com/hbo-exp.htm >Loreto =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Wed Dec 15 14:13:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20032 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 22:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 22:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.118) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 22:13:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:13:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV14.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:12:35 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:12:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:12:35 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Dec 2004 22:13:00.0940 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D77ACC0:01C4E2F3] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.118 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Explaining God? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thing has always bothered me, and that is the definitions and names and other restrictions we place upon the ultimate deity we can imagine only. HPB (of Theosophy fame) once talked about this in the Introduction to "Isis Unveiled." The Hindus talk about "God" as "Neti, neti" (nothing, nothing), and many mystics of all kinds think it is more reverent to speak little or none about the deity rather than try to hold Him in a religious "bottle" like a Genii. Zen "nothingness" (shunyata) also portrays this concept in their own version of Buddhism. I am in agreement with this movement, no matter how much I have said in the past (and no matter how bloody Islam's past, present, or future---those understand nothing of Allah's love for mankind). And now I feel that the simple "tawhid" (monotheism) of Islam is the best way to know the deity. In other words "There is no god but God" (la ilaha il'Allah) is the perfect way to attack this conundrum. Regardless of how Muslims act in view of this Great Truth, most of it due to the battlefields of the Middle-East throughout the centuries as civilization developes, Muhammad was truly given a Great Revelation when he found that "There is no god but God." Now, from a purely human, even scientific, viewpoint, there may be aliens or "gods" out in space, may even be UFOs, or "the Borg" (ah, those jokes were atrocious! LOL), but they can never be the deity Who is "the Beneficent and the Merciful." Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in his day for his people who were completely corrupt, and even killed baby daughters because they wanted sons only, but what the message of the "Qur'an is, is that we must be in gratitude to the One from Whom we sprang, however that was. In other words, as succinctly put in the beginning and end of Ian Dallas's book, The Book of Strangers," "La ilaha il'Allah." "Salaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Wed Dec 15 14:26:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69717 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 22:26:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 22:26:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 22:26:23 -0000 Received: from [61.1.107.191] (helo=k1) by smtp.net4india.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Cehet-00037u-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:00:12 +0530 Message-ID: <005001c4e2f5$11728800$bf6b013d@k1> To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:55:32 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.71.129.73 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Thought Forms available online at AnandGholap.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought Forms and following books are recently added at www.AnandGholap.net A new page is created which would show latest addition by date. It's URL is http://www.anandgholap.net/Datewise_Additions_To_Books.htm Man and His Bodies Riddle of Life Revelation, Inspiration, Observation Life After Death Liberation or Salvation Pain - It's Meaning and Use Karma Reincarnation [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 15:18:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46884 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2004 23:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Dec 2004 23:18:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2004 23:18:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 35167 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Dec 2004 23:18:30 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Vjn+og+hITIvX/4LrUcQX1l3w9CzZ8c371nB532DGss/1emednFuQO6YPe/3wEQwT3nlVq0WDWasf/xFWwJhL0BuC9YvcnPA9oUZLgP6wZwrMlqB7plEg9/V7Ze9BdY/kdjYSloYF7fzYbJTaxyBVBuphyfBSR/LHxNFlxPwIXM= ; Message-ID: <20041215231830.35165.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:18:30 PST Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:18:30 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.80 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Explaining God? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But didnt Mohammed mean "there is no god (other gods) but God" Didn't his religion change the ruling tribes of Koresh (forgive spelling) from pantheism to monotheism. Nothingness as referred to, could mean NO THING NESS Andrew Smith wrote: One thing has always bothered me, and that is the definitions and names and other restrictions we place upon the ultimate deity we can imagine only. HPB (of Theosophy fame) once talked about this in the Introduction to "Isis Unveiled." The Hindus talk about "God" as "Neti, neti" (nothing, nothing), and many mystics of all kinds think it is more reverent to speak little or none about the deity rather than try to hold Him in a religious "bottle" like a Genii. Zen "nothingness" (shunyata) also portrays this concept in their own version of Buddhism. I am in agreement with this movement, no matter how much I have said in the past (and no matter how bloody Islam's past, present, or future---those understand nothing of Allah's love for mankind). And now I feel that the simple "tawhid" (monotheism) of Islam is the best way to know the deity. In other words "There is no god but God" (la ilaha il'Allah) is the perfect way to attack this conundrum. Regardless of how Muslims act in view of this Great Truth, most of it due to the battlefields of the Middle-East throughout the centuries as civilization developes, Muhammad was truly given a Great Revelation when he found that "There is no god but God." Now, from a purely human, even scientific, viewpoint, there may be aliens or "gods" out in space, may even be UFOs, or "the Borg" (ah, those jokes were atrocious! LOL), but they can never be the deity Who is "the Beneficent and the Merciful." Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in his day for his people who were completely corrupt, and even killed baby daughters because they wanted sons only, but what the message of the "Qur'an is, is that we must be in gratitude to the One from Whom we sprang, however that was. In other words, as succinctly put in the beginning and end of Ian Dallas's book, The Book of Strangers," "La ilaha il'Allah." "Salaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 16:07:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33887 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 00:07:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 00:07:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 00:07:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:06:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:06:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:06:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1f9.3558979.2ef11838@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 398 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.39 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World THE QURAN X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Dear Fred You will go to hell!! --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/14/04 6:51:28 PM Central Standard Time, > silva_cass@y... writes: > > << > I meant who wrote the Quran? > >> > > Fred the Minor Angel of the 34th Chorus, 75th row, seat 15. > > He put on a Gabriel mask and played a really nasty prank on poor Mohammed. > > Chuck the Heretic From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 16:08:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61193 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 00:08:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 00:08:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 00:08:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:08:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:08:33 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:08:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19a.2cde0420.2ef11746@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 396 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "silva_cass" X-Originating-IP: 211.28.163.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Nietzsche X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Is that what Gabriel told you? --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/14/04 4:39:27 PM Central Standard Time, > aupanishad@m... writes: > > << Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger >> > > > Out of life's reform school: What does not destroy me makes me wish I had > managed to avoid it. > > Chuck the Heretic From aupanishad@msn.com Wed Dec 15 16:26:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32743 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 00:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 00:26:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 00:26:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:26:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 00:26:30 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:26:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041215231830.35165.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3187 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.38 From: "Andrew W. Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.110.251 Subject: Re: Theos-World Explaining God? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > But didnt Mohammed mean "there is no god (other gods) but God" Didn't his religion change the ruling tribes of Koresh (forgive spelling) from pantheism to monotheism. Nothingness as referred to, could mean NO THING NESS > > Andrew Smith wrote: > One thing has always bothered me, and that is the definitions and names and other restrictions we place upon the ultimate deity we can imagine only. HPB (of Theosophy fame) once talked about this in the Introduction to "Isis Unveiled." The Hindus talk about "God" as "Neti, neti" (nothing, nothing), and many mystics of all kinds think it is more reverent to speak little or none about the deity rather than try to hold Him in a religious "bottle" like a Genii. Zen "nothingness" (shunyata) also portrays this concept in their own version of Buddhism. I am in agreement with this movement, no matter how much I have said in the past (and no matter how bloody Islam's past, present, or future---those understand nothing of Allah's love for mankind). And now I feel that the simple "tawhid" (monotheism) of Islam is the best way to know the deity. In other words "There is no god but God" (la ilaha il'Allah) is the perfect way to attack this conundrum. Regardless of how Muslims act in view of this > Great Truth, most of it due to the battlefields of the Middle-East throughout the centuries as civilization developes, Muhammad was truly given a Great Revelation when he found that "There is no god but God." > > Now, from a purely human, even scientific, viewpoint, there may be aliens or "gods" out in space, may even be UFOs, or "the Borg" (ah, those jokes were atrocious! LOL), but they can never be the deity Who is "the Beneficent and the Merciful." Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in his day for his people who were completely corrupt, and even killed baby daughters because they wanted sons only, but what the message of the "Qur'an is, is that we must be in gratitude to the One from Whom we sprang, however that was. In other words, as succinctly put in the beginning and end of Ian Dallas's book, The Book of Strangers," "La ilaha il'Allah." > > > "Salaam Alaikum," > (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > "La ilaha il'Allah!" > Cass, I don't mean to mince words. The basis of all this is the "tawhid" (Absolute Monotheism) of Allah. The "jahilyah" (Pagan Arabs) were polytheisits, as were, and I can verify this, the Jews, and certainly the Christians (e.g. trinity, etc.) Even if Muhammad did not have a revelation (which I believe he DID), he was a genius for drawing pure tawhid out of the morass that Judaism and Christianity had created. "La ilaha il'Allah" is the perfect answer to all of this mess we call religion today. The CruSades (cf. the Marquis de Sade) are not over yet---just ask George Bush. As far as the "Nothingness" of the divine, you will find in any number of books on mysticism where pure faith is to know God as the cavity of the heart where "La ilalha il'Allah" is the only thing that can fill it. Read, for instance Meister Eckhart, St. Augustine,, Mircea Eliade, etc. From aupanishad@msn.com Wed Dec 15 17:15:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81039 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 01:15:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 01:15:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.60) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 01:15:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:15:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV30.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 01:14:18 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" , "Ldapguru" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:14:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:14:19 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Dec 2004 01:15:02.0747 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB5F2AB0:01C4E30C] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.60 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Happy Holidays X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Salaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 17:24:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93971 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.72) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 32165 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Dec 2004 01:24:08 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=mh3nDw7DTiqRp6WMVFDVwRPBIxs3+JxhgKv43WoPPyIdab86YvPrvbsPkoVZIuIILa9GCnrCU/p0IZwocm86jhj7odi5O7ygJNWjHQ8RM6l2I6vG/+9hikdtL48XstGjP2iBUWW7CBlNMvi27LQAtyF7cmDPdEmy1y73HdqmMOM= ; Message-ID: <20041216012408.32163.qmail@web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90101.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:24:08 PST Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:24:08 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.72 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Explaining God? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Andrew Yes, I am familiar with Mohammed's story. The "jahilyah" (Pagan Arabs) were polytheisits, as were, and I can verify this, the Jews, and certainly the Christians (e.g. trinity, etc.) C: Mohammed, before his revelations also believed in Abraham, Moses, Jesus and was a practising jahilyah. He was known in the community as the Righteous Man, the Just Man. Whether he was visited by Gabriel or it was his own Gabriel, he lived in a harsh barren land, where Arabs migrated from site to site, and depended on their tribe to protect them from other tribes. Their world was violent, turmoil and despair. The social structure was the tribe. The religion was tribal - polythiest - Even though he had a relatively comfortable life as a Caravan Manager. He could see that the old values were breaking down and needed to be replaced with a new set of ideas. M's vision was that his followers should forsake the gods of their ancestry and embrace only Allah - the high god of the pantheist, and that loyalty should be to that God alone. A community bound together by an ideal - related in faith and agreement - that anyone could join. This was revolutionary at the time and as you know threatened the ruling classes. So I agree with you when you say "he was a genius for drawing pure tawhid out of the morass that Judaism and Christianity had created." Although I think that is a bit harsh, as Christianity was not pantheistic, in terms of hundreds of gods, but believed in a Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (although I have never understood what this meant). This again was a bastardisation of what Jesus taught and was used by the Christian clerics as a means of control and power over the masses. The Quran came to Mohammed in the form of poetry, and all poets were honoured in their community at that time. Mystical experiences were accepted as the norm then, and as Allah had protected him in the Cave, the followers believed he was the messenger of Allah. St. Augustine,, Mircea Eliade and Mohammed were mystical. I have no trouble accepting that Mohammed's revelations were of a mystical nature. What I do have trouble with is that his revelations seemed to co-incide with his politics. He knew that the threat of Kerash had to be challenged by armed conflict. To defend their beliefs in battle. At this time he had a revelation JI-HAD. A revelation justifying his followers to fight. To struggle for the sake of God whether that be financial or violent. At that time the Muslims in Medina were fighting for survival - exiled, unemployed, poor date farmers and as all land was spoken for JIHAD provided them with the moral justification to fight for the right (in fact it was an obligation) to survive. To engage in defensive warfare. To defend by attacking. And this Mohammed did at the Battle of Bada. After 20 years of battles, he and his followers knew they had to go to Mecca to uproot the old religion by destroying the 365 idols in the BADR. This they did, but unlike the jahilyah, he ordered his followers to show mercy, to show forgiveness, "but forgiveness is better" unlike the jahilyah who would slaughter all those who survived the battle. In this way, Islam grew, with new converts and spread from North Africa to India. In 1400 years Islam grew to 1.5 billion followers. I agree with you that the crusades are not over yet. When people like BIN LADEN, HUSSEIN,HOMENI, distort the message even further, by using JIHAD to inflict retribution on the innocent for their personal power struggles. They quote from the Quran, but forget to quote, the whole message of Mohammed. Do not turn the other cheek, you have a right to fight to defend your faith, but always remember FORGIVENESS IS BETTER. "HE WHO SHALL KILL A HUMAN BEING, SHALL BE IF HE KILLETH ALL OF MANKIND" These new arabs have again distorted his message which was mean to UNIFY. Mohammed was not concerned with the rest of the world, they could have their own religions. JIHAD has been misinterpreted and is basically the same as the Christians practiced, 'DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH" and killed and slaughtered millions in divine righteousness. If JIHAD is a universal truth, then sadly it applies to all people who practice religion, so you can't blame the Americans for defending their faith when they are doing the same things that the Arabs are doing. There is no moral justification for the trouble in Irak, but then is there a justification to help those Arabs who were being slaughtered daily by Hussein, one of them? Do we just stand by and let these despots rule the world through evil? Do we turn away and say, "not my business, let them kill each other"? Are we there just to exploit their oil? What will happen when the oil is no longer a necessity in the west. My ex spent 7 years in the Middle East, I know of the hypocricy and the goodness within the followers. Cass "Andrew W. Smith" wrote: --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > But didnt Mohammed mean "there is no god (other gods) but God" Didn't his religion change the ruling tribes of Koresh (forgive spelling) from pantheism to monotheism. Nothingness as referred to, could mean NO THING NESS > > Andrew Smith wrote: > One thing has always bothered me, and that is the definitions and names and other restrictions we place upon the ultimate deity we can imagine only. HPB (of Theosophy fame) once talked about this in the Introduction to "Isis Unveiled." The Hindus talk about "God" as "Neti, neti" (nothing, nothing), and many mystics of all kinds think it is more reverent to speak little or none about the deity rather than try to hold Him in a religious "bottle" like a Genii. Zen "nothingness" (shunyata) also portrays this concept in their own version of Buddhism. I am in agreement with this movement, no matter how much I have said in the past (and no matter how bloody Islam's past, present, or future---those understand nothing of Allah's love for mankind). And now I feel that the simple "tawhid" (monotheism) of Islam is the best way to know the deity. In other words "There is no god but God" (la ilaha il'Allah) is the perfect way to attack this conundrum. Regardless of how Muslims act in view of this > Great Truth, most of it due to the battlefields of the Middle-East throughout the centuries as civilization developes, Muhammad was truly given a Great Revelation when he found that "There is no god but God." > > Now, from a purely human, even scientific, viewpoint, there may be aliens or "gods" out in space, may even be UFOs, or "the Borg" (ah, those jokes were atrocious! LOL), but they can never be the deity Who is "the Beneficent and the Merciful." Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in his day for his people who were completely corrupt, and even killed baby daughters because they wanted sons only, but what the message of the "Qur'an is, is that we must be in gratitude to the One from Whom we sprang, however that was. In other words, as succinctly put in the beginning and end of Ian Dallas's book, The Book of Strangers," "La ilaha il'Allah." > > > "Salaam Alaikum," > (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali > "La ilaha il'Allah!" > Cass, I don't mean to mince words. The basis of all this is the "tawhid" (Absolute Monotheism) of Allah. The "jahilyah" (Pagan Arabs) were polytheisits, as were, and I can verify this, the Jews, and certainly the Christians (e.g. trinity, etc.) Even if Muhammad did not have a revelation (which I believe he DID),"La ilaha il'Allah" is the perfect answer to all of this mess we call religion today. The CruSades (cf. the Marquis de Sade) are not over yet---just ask George Bush. As far as the "Nothingness" of the divine, you will find in any number of books on mysticism where pure faith is to know God as the cavity of the heart where "La ilalha il'Allah" is the only thing that can fill it. Read, for instance Meister Eckhart, St. Augustine,, Mircea Eliade, etc. Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Wed Dec 15 21:02:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80042 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 05:02:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 05:02:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.110) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 05:02:04 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:02:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:01:38 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Dec 2004 05:02:02.0270 (UTC) FILETIME=[613D73E0:01C4E32C] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.110 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Westerm Islam X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have formed a group which is for those interested in a Western (Euro-Amercan) form of Islam which I gave a name called called "Interstitial-Islam" in order to try to bring us closer to "La ilaha il'Allah" rather than try to require Western Islam in mandatory prayers (Friday prayer would remain), strange clothes, hijabs,and other paraphernalia. This will be a spiritual, not physical movement, that will allow anyone to chant "La ilaha il'Allah" all day with no ourward conflict. Thus is like Japanese japa (or repetition of a Buddha's name, or even a Sufu dkir.) I hope that some will come to see what this new relogion is all about, and I would like you to advertise it for me. There will be no sects or outward fighting, nor any jihad except the "jihad of the nafs". Those who wish to keep their Easteern garb are welcome to, but more impotant is to, as Paul said about 'pray without ceasing.' we Muslims must remember our Beneficent and Merciful Lord. The object will to become One with the One Supreme Lord of the universe for His rewards, and not to become absorbred in Him. This would give a new light to the Qir'an, and bring us closer to the Prophet (PBUH).If any are interested, please send me your houghts. "Salaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 02:11:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19900 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 10:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 10:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 10:11:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 10:10:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.121] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 10:10:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:10:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2396 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.37 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 83.82.4.22 Subject: Re: Projection of Astral Body - IV X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Kamal Singh Rajput"=20 wrote: > PROJECTION OF ASTRAL BODY =96 IV >=20 > One fine morning, my eldest daughter Alka woke up=20 very much=20 > terrified. She told me how she saw her self standing away from her=20 body. My=20 > wife was equally worried. This was Alka's first out of body=20 experience. I=20 > had never told her about astral body and its projection. The=20 situation=20 > demanded that I explain her about the existence of astral body and=20 its=20 > projection. Alka calmed down. >=20 > Due to chronic illness, Alka had become quite=20 weak. She=20 > complained to me that when she goes to sleep; her astral body gets=20 ejected=20 > automatically. During this state, she is able to witness every=20 activity=20 > going around. She calls the members of the family but no one hears.=20 > "Whenever I want to enter my physical body; I am to keep on trying=20 for very=20 > long time and I get very much tired." She told. She also said that=20 whenever=20 > I used to call her; her astral body quickly enters the physical. >=20 > We picked up the clue. Whenever, Alka used to go=20 to sleep=20 > during the day; I used to call her every 15 minutes or so. The=20 problem of=20 > difficult entry of the astral to the physical was solved. >=20 > I was in a subconscious state in my bed at=20 night. I was=20 > in a mosquito net. Room light was on. Suddenly, I saw a sudden=20 increase in=20 > the intensity of light in the room. Alka in her astral body was=20 standing=20 > beside my bed. She appeared like a white angel glowing with light.=20 Her=20 > astral body appeared to consist of glowing mist or dense steam.=20 Alka kissed=20 > me and I kissed her and I asked her, " Let us go together." And we=20 went=20 > together in our astral bodies. Afterwards, I slipped into deep=20 sleep. >=20 > Next morning, I asked Alka whether she came to my=20 room in=20 > astral form. She abruptly exclaimed, " HAN PAPA MAIN TO PAKDI=20 GAI." (YES=20 > PAPA I HAVE BEEN CAUGHT). >=20 >=20 > ...Kamal-S-Rajput.. Hallo , I think people needs a total Bach blossem therapy to find back their=20 equilibrium. Greetings Christina=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Microsoft's festive bonanza! Buy a branded Home PC.=20 > http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/festivebonanza/ Win a fabulous=20 holiday! From dalval14@e... Thu Dec 16 05:39:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@e... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96492 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 13:39:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 13:39:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 13:39:14 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.206] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CevpY-0006a7-4x; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:38:23 -0500 To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:37:54 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4e374$7dbc7230$ce92b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec798fd5441a0fbf42045ffcdf0b54354489350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.206 Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Love and assistance are the LAWS of NATURE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 14 2004 RE: Yours of Dec 2nd, Love (and assistance ) are the LAWS of NATURE Sorry delay in answering. Just returned from a week in hospital. To be brief: The whole pilgrimage of man as a "Life-Atom Of Individual Consciousness" that NEVER DIES has to be grasped. This is the basis for BROTHERHOOD.=20=20 Also the basis for the statement that the MONADS (and this means all the beings in the entire Universe) are on this common "pilgrimage".=20 Remember, our Science has already taken this as their basis:=20 1 The "atom" is perpetually in motion.=20=20 2 By its inherent properties it is of one kind of physical nature or another, but that nature only changes if the basic inner nature and composition of the "atom" is altered. Then Science says, you get a new "substance." This is how alloys of metals are made, or how drugs and chemicals are produced.=20=20 3 This has also a direct bearing on Karma in humans, as our feelings, desires, mind-thoughts and finally will, make those changes in our own mora= l and also in our physical nature. This, in turn, gives rise to the concept of the=20 (1) Higher (Divine Individual) Nature and Mind, and=20 (2) the Lower or selfish, personal and evil mind (and its actions). 3 It (the "atom"), is not "physical," but is entirely made up of energies, and=20 4 of intelligent, well-regulated and lawful forces.=20=20 5 It is well to remember that NATURE, or (the Divine Universe as a whole) has organized these matters for billions of years.=20=20 Our Science is only re-discovering that which Nature (acting as DEITY which is the ONE SPIRIT) has established.=20=20 We may say here that this very intricate and cooperative process she had installed, is always life-supporting for everyone.=20=20 If by chance or choice anyone violates her laws she instantly takes note an= d reacts to teach the interloper that this is wrong and harmful. There fore in calling this vast self administering system KARMA we are only acknowledging=20 6 So, every being and every "form" is made up of billions of such "life-atoms" all cooperating and working together to construct the forms we are familiar with. Nature does this for us. We have to learn how this is done, if we desire to intelligently progress. This need makes of each one of us "Monads" immortals and the pilgrimage we are involved in is a very long one, life after life. 7 Behind the physical, logically, there has to be an intelligent and well coordinated electro-magnetic "form."=20 8 On this energy-life form, the "atoms, molecules, etc.," arrange themselves to form the energic basis for the physical structures (and the processes of life - breathing, blood circulation, muscular control through nerve impulse, brain as coordinator for the body, eating and excretion, etc.) we are familiar with: -- organs, veins, arteries, nerves, heart, brain, bones, muscles, etc. The human body, as an example, is a marvelous organism, and it is a good analogy as it illustrates the forces and properties of a small "universe" alive and always corresponding to, and interacting in itself and with other= s -- like the GREAT UNIVERSE which is outside of it.=20 9 This may seem to be difficult to grasp. But it is a fact, and it works in the MORAL as well as the physical world.=20 The "moral" world is the one in which we choose our thoughts, feelings, and acts. It is here and now, that we are all struggling to understand our ATTITUDE towards others -- whether they be humans of other beings, There is always a broad division between friendship, cooperation and brotherhood and the opposite, which is selfishness and isolationist.=20 This has to be taken as a basis for understanding the difference between virtue and vice, and thus, the difference between the Higher and Lower Mind= . That is, between Mind-MANAS united to BUDDHI - or the wisdom-Mind, or MANAS united to Kama - or the thousands of unbridled desires -- and make up our ordinary embodied mind which is mainly FOLLY. As such it "dies" with the dissolution of the body, only the good and the virtuous impulses and deeds survive as part of the REAL, PERMANENT IMMORTAL MAN.).=20 In the human sphere we have to learn to control the unregulated desires, an= d live a regulated spiritual life.=20=20 If anyone desires to test this proposition they need only try to mentally develop any one of their desires to the utmost. See if it can survive ALONE, in a universe that becomes (under KARMA) non-cooperative and obstructs it.=20 Let us realize that the cooperative and interactive will of the UNIVERSE is always active to support us and all other beings. It is we, who cause by our selfishness, all the evils and pains that beset us with suffering. But they are not responsible for that. We are. And if we suffer from some others' acting , it is our own Karma returning to us.=20=20 The evil we may do, is always purged, adjusted and mitigated under Karma through successive lives. The process is always painful as we are made to suffer the same situations we may have caused to others to endure unfairly.= =20 The whole point of decision is the morality of our choices. If it is fair and just and helpful, we can say "good Karma" is performed. If it is selfish and careless of the rights and privileges of others (un-brotherly) it is "bad Karma," and eventually, we suffer.=20 There is no separateness between us and "others." If GOD is universal, the= n IT has decreed that other religions and peoples have as much right to live peacefully as we do. No man, or priest has the right to say otherwise, because that would make GOD less than universal, and less than honest and fair. Many people have been taught, that prayers for forgiveness may seemingly be answered (or not, =3D as GOD wills). But consider that if GOD is just, a= nd the UNIVERSE is TRUE and fair to all, IT cannot favor us, and neglect those whom we have wronged.=20 Whenever we do evil or harm, we know it is so. (Otherwise, why should we ask for forgiveness? Why should we ask GOD to shield us from the evil consequences that we already know will come back to us? Why do we ask GOD to be unfair and unjust to others (and also to ourselves) ? Why do we not make restitution to those we have harmed? )=20 The WILL (also the power to IMAGINE) is a colorless force directed by the MIND. Mind is influenced by selfish desires (KAMA) or by altruism and nobility. We, the immortal, Divine MONAD (HIGHER MIND) are the Chooser and our progress goes up or down the ladder of progress according to our moral choices.=20 That is the basis for THEOSOPHICAL philosophy and doctrines, and it will b= e found to be a true and universal basis logically for all such questions. = =20 Please see Notes below. Dal ----------------------------------------- Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: cassilva48 Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:51 PM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] RE: Love Dear Dallas Thanks again for your help. Could you please clarify that what I have said is in agreement with your understanding? C LOWER IMAGINATION: By this I meant Fancy The mind (working through lower manas) will construct an image (subjective) as if it were a tangible thing. Imagination connected with fancy or desire. The desire and the image and the mind are all mixed together, and the result, instead of being a training of the image making power, is to bring on a decay of that power and results only in a continual flying to the image of the thing desired. DTB: =93Imagination. In Occultism this is not to be confused with fancy. =20 C HIGHER IMAGINATION: Imagination under control of the will (working through Higher Manas) has to be able to make a picture of anything at any time, And if this power has not been trained the possession of other sorts of knowledge will not enable one to perform certain classes of occult phenomenon. ( DTB It does so in obedience to an irresistible force - the Will: Will in accordance with divine law. It is concrete going and returning in obedience to this force, bringing little with it from intermediate spheres other than that for which it is seeking.) =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Moral condition of desire and use of consequent will-power determines either the (1) Lower (selfish and untrue, vicious) or (2) Higher (generous and true, virtuous) use of imagination. FANCY is a desire that is speculative, selfish, usually entertaining, time-wasting and unreal. Hence pertains to the Lower. IMAGINATION is colorless and may be used by Higher (virtuous) or Lower (vicious) MIND -- and be motivated by vice or virtue. The results (Karma) will be either good for many, or harmful for many and/or for few; but in this last case, they will always be harmful to the individual who generates them with a vicious or selfish objective..=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C: I believed this to be the method, although I could have misinterpreted it. The imagination (Higher imagination under control of Higher Manas) make= s a picture of each word (or thing) of each letter of every line in every letter and having made that picture it is held there by the will and the imagination acting together for such a length of time as is needed to permit the carbons or other substances to be strained down through this matrix and appear in another location. Sending messages by words which the receiver is to hear is done by making an image of the person who is the recipient is to be made and held in place - you have to become a camera. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB This method of precipitation can be used by either Higher or Lower MIND and DESIRE. Motive determines all effects, and Karma. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Unless the man's thought and motive are pure, he is incapable of using the true will,=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB NO -- "Will" is colorless. It is the MOTIVE that determines the Karma. (see above) . One has to know KARMA in full to make will-actions pure and generous for all. Without such divine knowledge and pure motive all will-actions are selfish and faulty. The practice of BROTHERHOOD is enjoined by THEOSOPHY for this reason. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C: and therefore incapable of direct contact with Higher Imagination? =20 KARMA: Karma is not a doctrine of an eye for an eye. It is a doctrine of learning. If you think, act, or desire harm or happiness towards others, it is returned to you. If you harm someone, then to understand the harm you caused you need to experience it for yourself. In that way you, are knowledgeable, and if you are open and accepting of it =96 by not regenerating or retaliating against it, and don=92t want to feel that pain again, you will learn from the experience and the karma is harmonized between cause and effect. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB It is so foolish to deliberately do wrong things, knowing that eventually we will have to be the sufferers. Further, our Higher Self through the Voice of Conscience (Buddhi-Manas) warns us -- DO WE LISTEN ? But as reincarnation is rarely taken into account (by the foolish Lower Mind) , many think they can hide their wrong-doing and reap stealthy, ill-gotten profits from deceits of all kinds. Everything revolves around the matter of our decisions - it is the MORAL FACTOR. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB: There is the Karma of merit and the Karma of demerit. Karma neither punishes nor rewards, it is simply the one Universal LAW which guides unerringly, and, so to say, blindly, all other laws productive of certain effects along the grooves of their respective causations.=20 When Buddhism teaches that =93Karma is that moral kernel (of any being) whi= ch alone survives death and continues in transmigration" or, reincarnation, it simply means that there remains nought after each Personality but the cause= s produced by it; causes which are undying, i.e., which cannot be eliminated from the Universe until replaced by their legitimate effects, and wiped out by them, so to speak, and such causes=97unless compensated during the life = of the person who produced them with adequate effects, will follow the reincarnating Ego, and reach it in its subsequent reincarnation until a harmony between effects and causes is fully reestablished.=20 C Yes if we are energy, is it SUCH A LEAP OF FAITH, to think that our mental thoughts are made up of energy, and if you can accept that, then you should be able to accept that like attracts like, and if you have a thought that corresponds with the thinking of others in the universe, wont that energy attract itself to like. If you don't have a corresponding attitude then the thought will not be attracted to you.=20=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB LEAP OF FAITH ? The whole of our Science is based on energy. From the most minute of energies, to the electron, to the ion, to the atom, molecule, cell, etc., -- everything is electricity and magnetism, always, and ever in perpetual motion. No "leap of faith" =3D FACT. To recognize KARMA and Nature's exactitude is for us an effort. But then logic demands exactly that, as the UNIVERSE continues, as it alway= s has in the past.=20 It is the false idea of "forgiveness" that has blurred understanding. Of universal LAW.=20=20 Nature (GOD) has no power to "forgive." It ADJUSTS, and moves on constructively. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=09 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C By this I meant that not only every action we do but every thought we have generates, firstly, a thought form, ( a cause) and every thought has an (an effect) Karma. I was specifically referring to =93copy cat=94 events that occur in the world. If an (evil) act is produced this act is always preceded by an (evil) thought, this thought then manifests itself in the mental plane and attaches itself to people of like thought and reinforces them to again, commit (evil) acts upon others. Likewise if you have a pure humanitarian act (Live Aid concert, eg. )Then this pure thought form attaches itself to thinkers of the same ilk, and a corresponding good effect occurs. DTB: KARMA IS UNIVERSAL LAW =96 it is Brotherhood in action everywhere. = All beings are subject to Karma. It provides life and environment to all. It is universally sensitive and adjusts all wrongs.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB "Though Form" is another word for an "idea," or a "fancy," or a "desire" -- but have we developed the power to frame these fully and accuracy and without careless faults?=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C There are many reasons, as they are equally involved (as immortal monads) In evolution. Our own body is an "animal." It is informed by a "god-like consciousness" in potential. We share our monads with the animals and thus our Karma affects them. The great gap between us is the nature of the MIND. They are still to acquire it.=20 C KARMA OF ANIMALS "Animals have Karma, or consequence of act, but they have not man's responsibility. While they seem to suffer and enjoy, it is all without any self-consciousness, and hence is less in itself and less lasting in effect. Their karma is bound up with man; and he is the responsible one and will have to bear the responsibility, although they feel the burden directly." WQJ Art II 566=20 "...the effect of Karma upon the animals...(15) the whole of creation waits upon man and groans that he keeps back the enlightenment of all. What happens when...you crush out the life of a common croton bug ? Well, it is destroyed and you forget it. But you brought it to an untimely end, short though its life would have been. Imagine this being done at hundreds and thousands of places...Each of these little creatures had life, and energy; each some degree of intelligence, The sum total of effects of all these deaths of small things must be appreciable. If not, then our doctrines are wrong and there is no wrong in putting our the life of a human being ... [animals] killed for sport..." WQJ Art I 14-5 "The brutes unconsciously are aware of the general human opposition, which in each human being they see focalized." WQJ Letters 87.=20=20 C: I do not understand this concept, if they are unconsciously aware?, if they are unconscious of it how are they aware of it? C: I also do not understand how my karma can affect my animals? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB The feeling is an electro-magnetic effect. It works on the life-atoms, molecules, etc... Karma (including ours as humans) envelops and includes all beings including animals. Anything we may affect becomes attached by karmic links to us. Nothing is excluded. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C The intellectual potentialities of the two differ as the Sun does from the Glow-worm ? And what is it that creates such a difference, unless man is An animal plus a living god within his physical shell ?" "...(the) animal soul (Nephesh of the Hebrew Kabalist)...the ray which emanates from the Higher Manas or permanent EGO, and is that "principle" which forms the human mind--in animals instinct." Trans. 59 "...man has one "principle" more than the tiniest insect, but because man is a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles is absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 The rudiments of hope, patience, faith, fidelity, confidence, etc., are found in the animal kingdom." -- HPB Theosophist 5- p. 223=20 C DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANIMALS AND MEN "The difference between animals and men is this: the former are ensouled by the "principles" potentially, the latter actually." Key 104. C: So, as we are gods in the becoming, animals are men in the becoming and then gods in the becoming? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB Correct. The immortal "life-atom" or MONAD passes through those various stages of evolution one after the other. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C MAN'S FORM IS AN ANIMAL the "Ego-Sum," necessitates self-consciousness, and an animal can only have direct consciousness, or instinct. C: I find it interesting that HPB refers to direct consciousness in animals as instinct. She also commented that the reason why whales and dolphins beach themselves is because instinctively they are returning to what was once submerged. The dolphins remember when the earth was in a different shape and what is now land was then sea. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB I am not quite sure about that. Do you have an exact reference? Certainly the dolphins and whales have a higher kind of intelligence than fishes, but they are still a part of the animal kingdom. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C "The soul, whose body vehicle is the Astral, ethereo-substantial envelope, could die, and man be still living on earth--i.e., the soul could free itself from and quit the tabernacle for various reasons--such as insanity, spiritual and physical depravity, etc." C: Again, very interesting, as HPB is saying that there are soul-less men who walk the earth, which can explain the evil administered by them. LIGHTING UP OF THE MANAS (MIND) It is only at the (255) mid-point of the 3rd Root-Race that man was endowed with Manas. (18,000,000 years ago). Once united the two and then the three made one; for though the lower animals, from the amoeba to man, received their monads, in which all the higher qualities are potential, all have to remain dormant till each reaches its human form, before which stage manas (mind) has no development in them. In the animals every principle is paralyzed, and in a fetus-like state, save the 2nd (vital) and the 3rd (the astral), and the rudiments of the 4th (Kama, which is desire, instinct) whose intensity and development varies and changes with the species." S D II 254-5 PHYSICAL MAN But for the real SELF, that which emanated its own shadow, or the lower thinking personality, that enacted and pulled the wires during the life of the physical automaton, will have to suffer conjointly with its factotum and alter ego in the next incarnation." Trans. 67. C: By this, I take it HPB means by way of our SKANDAS. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB The Skandhas are defined below: "SKANDHA (Sk.). Lit., =93bundles=94, or groups of attributes; everything finite, inapplicable to the eternal and the absolute. There are five=97esoterically, seven=97attributes in every human living being, which = are known as the Pancha Skandhas.=20 These are=20 (1) form, r=FBpa;=20 (2) perception, vid=E2na; (3) consciousness, sanjn=E2;=20 (4) action, sansk=E2ra;=20 (5) knowledge, vidy=E2na.=20 These unite at the birth of man and constitute his personality. After the maturity of these Skandhas, they begin to separate and weaken, and this is followed by jar=E2-marana, or decrepitude and death." T Glos. Pp. 301-= 2 "SAMSK=C2RA (Sk.). Lit., from Sam and Kr=EE, to improve, refine, impress. I= n Hindu philosophy the term is used to denote the impressions left upon the mind by individual actions or external circumstances, and capable of being developed on any future favourable occasion=97even in a future birth.=20 The Samsk=E2ra denotes, therefore, the germs of propensities and impulses f= rom previous births to be developed in this, or the coming janm=E2s or reincarnations... It is, strictly speaking, a metaphysical term, which in exoteric philosophies is variously defined; e.g., in Nepaul as illusion, in Tibet as notion, and in Ceylon as discrimination. The true meaning is as given above= , and as such is connected with karma and its working. " T Glos. pp. 288-9 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D C: Do animals feel pain?=20=20=20=20=09 YES. All beings feel pain. But not necessarily as we who have MINDS feel it.=20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C Isis P 263, =93Plants and vegetation reveal a multitude of forms because o= f their precedent actions=92 they are surrounded by darkness, but are nevertheless endowed with an interior soul, and feel equally pleasure and pain=94 (Manu, book i). C: The reason I enquired about Animals and Karma, is that I lost my 15 year old lab and my 3 month old Chihuahua to poison. They suffered with convulsions and (what I think were hallucinations) for many hours, and finally I had them put to sleep to relieve their pain (neither would have survived the medications to revive them.) I believe, they knew what was happening to them but didn=92t understand why. I also couldn=92t understan= d why these two innocent souls who never harmed anyone or anything would have to die in such a way. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D DTB READ THIS PLEASE Reincarnation of MIND (EGO) in animal bodies ? Briefly: It is impossible in the progressive stream of evolution for the MIND (EGO) , the ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS (or MONAD) of man, to retrogress and reincarnate into an animal body that is not designed to contain a MIND and provide adequate support for such an entity as MIND is. So where does the idea arise? It lies in the ancient teaching about the transfer of life-atoms (skandhas, samskaras) that goes on perpetually in all of nature.=20=20 In other words, the atoms and molecules we receive from food, air, water, and contact with others are temporarily used in our physical bodies and then, when that use is over, they are passed on, and some of those go into the animal forms, others to the plants, and still others to air, water, etc...=20 There is an old aphorism: Once a Man, always a man. ----------------------------------- =09 REINCARNATION OF ANIMALS VERY little has been said on the question whether or not the theory of Reincarnation applies to animals in the same way as to man.=20 Doubtless, if Brahman members well acquainted with Sanscrit works on the general subject were to publish their views, we should at least have a large mass of material for thought and find many clues to the matter in the Hindu theories and allegories. Even Hindu folk-lore would suggest much.=20 Under all popular "superstitions" a large element of truth can be found hidden away when the vulgar notion is examined in the light of the Wisdom-Religion. ... In the same way the folk-lore of such an ancient people as the Hindu deserves scrutiny with the object of discovering the buried truth. If they are possessed of such notions regarding the fate of animals, careful analysis might give valuable suggestion. Looking at the question in the light of Theosophical theories, we see that = a wide distinction exists between man and animals.=20 Man reincarnates as man because he has got to the top of the present scale of evolution. He cannot go back, for Manas is too much developed. He has a Devachan because he is a conscious thinker.=20 Animals cannot have Manas so much developed, and so cannot be self-conscious in the sense that man is. Besides all this, the animal kingdom, being lower, has the impulse still to rise to higher forms. But here we have the distinct statement by the Adepts through H.P.B. that while possibly animals may rise higher in their own kingdom, they cannot in this evolution rise to the human stage, as we have reached the middle or turning-point in the fourth round. On this point H.P.B. has, in the second volume of the SECRET DOCTRINE (Vol., II.) p. 196, a foot note as follows: "In calling the animals "Soulless," it is not depriving the beast, from the humblest to the highest species, of a "soul," but only of a conscious surviving Ego-soul, i.e., that principle which survives after a man and reincarnates in a like man.". The animal has an astral body that survives the physical form for a short period; but its (animal) Monad does not reincarnate in the same, but in a higher species, and has no "Devachan" of course. It has the seeds of all the human principles in itself, but they are latent . Here the distinction above adverted to is made. It is due to the Ego-Soul, that is, to Manas with Buddhi and Atma. Those principles being latent in the animal, and the door to the human kingdom being closed, they may rise to higher species but not to the man stage. Of course also it is not meant that no dog or other animal ever reincarnates as dog, but that the monad has tendency to rise to a higher species, whatever that be, whenever it has passed beyond the necessity for further experience as "dog." Under the position the author assumes it would be natural to suppose that the astral form of the animal did not last long, as she says, and hence that astral appearances or apparitions of animals were not common. Such is the fact. I have heard of a few, but very few, cases where a favorite animal made an apparitional appearance after death, but even the prolific field of spiritualism has not many instances of the kind. And those who have learned about the astral world know that human beings assume in that world the form of animal or other things which they in character most resemble, and that this sort of apparition is not confined to the dead but is more common among the living. It is by such signs that clairvoyants know the very life and thought of the person before them. It was under the operation of this law that Swedenborg saw so many curious things in his time. The objection based on the immense number of animals both alive and dead as calling for a supply of monads in that stage can be met in this way. While it is stated that no more animal monads can enter on the man-stage, it is not said nor inferred that the incoming supply of monads for the animal kingdom has stopped. They may still be coming in from other worlds for evolution among the animals of this globe. There is nothing impossible in it, and it will supply the answer to the question, Where do the new animal monads come from, supposing that all the present ones have exhausted the whole number of higher species possible here? It is quite possible also that the animal monads may be carried on to other members of the earth-chain in advance of man for the purpose of necessary development, and this would lessen the number of their appearances here.=20 For what keeps man here so long is that the power of his thought is so great as to make a Devachan for all lasting some fifteen centuries--with exceptions-- and for a number who desire "heaven" a Devachan of enormous length.=20 The animals, however, being devoid of developed Manas, have no Devachan and must be forced onwards to the next planet in the chain. This would be consistent and useful, as it gives them a chance for development in readiness for the time when the monads of that kingdom shall begin to rise to a new human kingdom. They will have lost nothing, but, on the contrary, will be the gainers. William Brehon PATH, April, 1894 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From samblo@cs.com Thu Dec 16 10:57:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38473 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yahoogroups.com) (80.202.254.127) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:58:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.202.254.127 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have a look at these. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Dec 16 11:03:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33456 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 19:03:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 19:03:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 19:03:56 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [201.11.81.23]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A65B33EA3 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <007901c4e3a1$9a29ffa0$0301010a@versus> To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:01:08 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John If this is not a virus message...tell me: My Yahoo doesn=B4t allow attachments...what are these pics about? Hope you are well Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: samblo@cs.com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Old photos Have a look at these. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 12:31:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89167 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 20:31:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 20:31:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 20:31:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 20:30:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.180] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 20:30:28 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:30:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1083 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.50 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Dr.Santucci on the Neo-Theosophy of Annie Besant & C.W. Leadbeater X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell James A. Santucci, professor of religious studies at California State University (Fullerton) and editor of Theosophical History, has written the following: ". . . Annie Besant, the President of the [Adyar Theosophical] Society from 1907 to her death in 1933, and Charles Webster Leadbeater, arguably the most influential theosophical writer from the early years of the 20th century to his death in 1934, . . . were largely responsible for the introduction of new teachings that were often in total opposition to the Theosophy of [Madame H.P.] Blavatsky and her Masters. These teachings were designated by their opponents as Neo-Theosophy . . . or less often Pseudo-Theosophy. The differences between Theosophy and Neo-Theosophy are too numerous to mention in the context of this paper. . . . An extensive overview [of the differences] is given in . . . Theosophy or Neo-Theosophy by Margaret Thomas. . . . " For more on this subject, see: http://blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm and http://blavatskyarchives.com/intromaterial5.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 12:36:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43754 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 20:36:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 20:36:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 20:36:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 20:35:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 20:35:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:35:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 331 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: William Q. Judge and Katherine A. Tingley: Their Close Relationship X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell William Q. Judge and Katherine A. Tingley: An Analysis of the Controversy Surrounding W.Q. Judge's Diary Entries about "Promise" and the Dead H.P.B. including Material on the Close Relationship between Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley by H.N. Stokes See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokeswqjktcon.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Thu Dec 16 15:09:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24102 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 23:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 23:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 23:09:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 23:09:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 23:09:33 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:09:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 724 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.40 From: "Anand Gholap" X-Originating-IP: 202.54.51.5 Subject: HPB admitted she misunderstood teaching given by Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: www_anandgholap_net On 4 th January 1887 HPB wrote letter to Col. Olcott after Subba Raw (S.R.) gave opinion about Proem of SD. HPB writes " ........Let S.R. do what he likes. I give him carte blanche. I trust in his wisdom far more than in mine, for I may have misunderstood in many a point both Master and the Old G. (other Adept). They give me facts only and rarely dictate in succession. I am no maker of books you know it........" It not only tells wisdom of SR but also tells that she did misunderstand things which went into her writing. Later when she sent draft of Secrete Doctrine to Subba Raw for correcting mistakes. He went through it and told her that if he was to correct it he would have to write whole book again. From ramadoss@gbronline.com Thu Dec 16 15:48:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53067 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 23:48:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 23:48:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 23:48:14 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.97.12]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 23938618 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:46:53 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041216174422.0658cec0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:48:53 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7A83CE6 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB admitted she misunderstood teaching given by Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Everybody makes mistakes or misunderstood. I recall reading somewhere that after Lord Buddha passed on, Shri Shankaracharya was born to correct some of the mistakes that the Lord Buddha made. So, in the final analysis, until we have first hand knowledge, everything we read is second hand and we need to keep an open mind since the real secrets can never be communicated in writing by anybody. mkr At 11:09 PM 12/16/04 +0000, you wrote: >On 4 th January 1887 HPB wrote letter to Col. Olcott after Subba Raw >(S.R.) gave opinion about Proem of SD. >HPB writes " ........Let S.R. do what he likes. I give him carte >blanche. I trust in his wisdom far more than in mine, for I may have >misunderstood in many a point both Master and the Old G. (other >Adept). They give me facts only and rarely dictate in succession. I >am no maker of books you know it........" >It not only tells wisdom of SR but also tells that she did >misunderstand things which went into her writing. >Later when she sent draft of Secrete Doctrine to Subba Raw for >correcting mistakes. He went through it and told her that if he was >to correct it he would have to write whole book again. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.4 - Release Date: 12/15/04 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:13:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71295 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.45) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:13:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:12:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 977 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.45 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRINE?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRINE?? Anand made a sweeping statement that Madame Blavatsky's "writing has many mistakes to the extent that it is not possible to recommend for reading even a single book by her." Not a single book....so even Anand would not recommend Blavatsky's THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Compare his estimation with that of Master Koot Hoomi: "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, Series I, p. 47 Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:15:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73709 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.165] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:14:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3146 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Anand ignored this posting from me and never answered the specific points X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The material below I wrote to Anand more than a month ago and I also believe I posted it on this forum. Anand ignored this posting from me and never answered the specific points. ---------------------------------------------- Anand, you write: "HPB admitted that she misunderstood teaching given by the Masters." No she didn't admit that. She wrote: "...I MAY have misunderstood in many a point both Master and Old. G...." She didn't consider herself infallible and she did admit that she might be capable of making mistakes. "I MAY have misunderstood"....does not mean that she did misunderstand. And please consider what HPB wrote later: "Now Tookaram writes me a letter. In it he says that S.R. told him he was ready to help me and correct my S.D. provided I took out from it every reference to the Masters! Now, what's this? Does he mean to say that I should deny the Masters, or that I do not understand Them and garble the facts They give me, or that he, S.R. knows Master's doctrines better than I do?...." But Anand, why RELY on what Subba Row may or may not have said about the S.D. when we have the following assurances from the Master Koot Hoomi: "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, Series I, p. 47 Anand, you seem to want to IGNORE what Master K.H. says above. The Master says that the Secret Doctrine is "an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." That appears to me a recommendation....and totally opposite of what you say. You also write: "You asked me about mistakes of HPB. Although I can give many references, it is very boring and time consuming task. Moreover I expect that person should understand point quickly without my too much explanation." It may be as you say a very boring and time consuming task but you need to back up with specific examples your broad sweeping generalization if you want people to consider your statement accurate and creditable. Show some examples where you think HPB made mistakes ...hopefully major mistakes in the SD. A few....two or three or 5 of them. HPB may have made some mistakes ..... but does that negate the worth of the SD. Please ponder on what KH said in the quote I gave you earlier in this letter. Are you also trying to say that Leadbeater, for example, never made any mistakes comparable to what you think HPB did? I really wonder if you have carefully thought all of this through. Show some prime examples of HPB's mistakes and furthermore why we should rely on Leadbeater's writings over HPB's writings. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:15:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7028 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:15:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:15:52 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:15:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 334 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: To Anand: Tell us please about "her mistakes" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Anand, You write: "But her mistakes confuse people greatly even after 100 years. So it has much negative value." Please give us on this forum a few of her mistakes. You keep on saying she made mistakes, so you must know some of them. Please give us a few examples and show us why they are in fact mistakes. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:19:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44779 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:19:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:19:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:19:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:19:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:19:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:19:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 393 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.41 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Anand: So who made this mistake: Sinnett/Leadbeater or Blavatsky/Masters??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Anand: So who made this mistake: Sinnett/Leadbeater or Blavatsky/Masters??? C.W. Leadbeater endorsed A.P. Sinnett's view that the Earth chain of globes included both Mars and Mercury. But in 1888 in THE SECRET DOCTRINE, Madame Blavatsky corrected Sinnett's mistake in the following words. See her correction at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/moderntheosophy.htm#2 Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 17:36:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67322 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 01:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 01:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 01:36:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:36:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.131] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2004 01:36:29 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:36:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 258 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.48 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Life after Death: Koot Hoomi/Blavatsky versus Leadbeater/Hodson???? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Life after Death: Koot Hoomi/Blavatsky versus Leadbeater/Hodson???? See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/morganafterdeath.htm So who made the mistakes? Master Koot Hoomi and H.P. Blavatsky OR C.W. Leadbeater and Geoffrey Hodson? Daniel http://hpb.cc From rajputks@hotmail.com Thu Dec 16 18:08:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33550 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 02:08:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 02:08:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.53.88) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 02:08:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:08:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 210.214.134.169 by by19fd.bay19.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 02:07:02 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rajputks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: rajputks@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <1103205522.372.5880.m12@yahoogroups.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: mom_dad_hathi@yahoo.com, asbhand@satyam.net.in, dalmiasangita@yahoo.co.in, satishmehta4@epatra.com, satishmehta4@yahoo.com, Vikrant.Rajput@FMR.COM, kamal.singhrajput@gmail.com, nrshukla@yahoo.com Bcc: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:37:02 +0530 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2004 02:08:02.0377 (UTC) FILETIME=[3CFDF390:01C4E3DD] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.53.88 From: "Kamal Singh Rajput" X-Originating-IP: [210.214.134.169] Subject: LEARN,PROJECT AND SEE YOUR SELF X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206765605 LEARN, PROJECT AND SEE YOUR SELF Dear Friends, I have tried to share my experiences with the astral body with you all. The experiments on “Projection of Astral Body” were performed in true scientific spirit. However, there may be some shortcomings. I am eager to know. I welcome all your doubts and comments. That is the spirit of science. There is lot of literature on astral body and its projection even on the web. May I request you to go through some of the literature. There are set procedures for astral projection. Learn them with all precautions in mind and action. Project your own astral body and see for your self, the wonderful astral world. Come out and share with me and all your own experiences. I wish, some one write a book on DO IT YOUR SELF – ASTRAL PROJECTION. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... _________________________________________________________________ Get a job today. http://goindia.msnserver.com/IN/55252.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today. From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Dec 16 20:28:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20784 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 04:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 04:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 04:28:00 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.48] (helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cf9iW-00033Q-1m for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:27:48 +0000 Message-ID: <41C260E2.9050209@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:30:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.10 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn I've been tryig to figure out what there might on this page that I might want to "have a look" at. ^:-/ ... Mauri samblo@cs.com wrote: > Have a look at these. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 21:36:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45952 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 05:36:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 05:36:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 05:36:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 13903 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Dec 2004 05:36:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=F1Kjrg57NNYEbTmuJxCN89Ip20K/545fUOWCVTCkVNG4ji2BfUTGB7Yfw8aH1J5rg7HIso7AqLQchvq4yBJ8B9rObKQTE3519zfELrCZUuUB95W0MStKUD27h1QoaYHsg30YrTTCdnmitx4cJEUdSGukp5ydHYxCZXBo2eeqyws= ; Message-ID: <20041217053601.13901.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:36:01 PST Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:36:01 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.74 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Anand ignored this posting from me and never answered the specific points X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a native english speaker or writer of english, language misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. In the case of Besant and Leadbeater, who had a christian slant in their make-up perhaps they may have misunderstood or were in denial and could have (slanted) misconstrued the real meaning to their own ideals. Maybe they made the pie fit the dish rather than the dish not being able to fit the pie. Cass "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: The material below I wrote to Anand more than a month ago and I also believe I posted it on this forum. Anand ignored this posting from me and never answered the specific points. ---------------------------------------------- Anand, you write: "HPB admitted that she misunderstood teaching given by the Masters." No she didn't admit that. She wrote: "...I MAY have misunderstood in many a point both Master and Old. G...." She didn't consider herself infallible and she did admit that she might be capable of making mistakes. "I MAY have misunderstood"....does not mean that she did misunderstand. And please consider what HPB wrote later: "Now Tookaram writes me a letter. In it he says that S.R. told him he was ready to help me and correct my S.D. provided I took out from it every reference to the Masters! Now, what's this? Does he mean to say that I should deny the Masters, or that I do not understand Them and garble the facts They give me, or that he, S.R. knows Master's doctrines better than I do?...." But Anand, why RELY on what Subba Row may or may not have said about the S.D. when we have the following assurances from the Master Koot Hoomi: "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, Series I, p. 47 Anand, you seem to want to IGNORE what Master K.H. says above. The Master says that the Secret Doctrine is "an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." That appears to me a recommendation....and totally opposite of what you say. You also write: "You asked me about mistakes of HPB. Although I can give many references, it is very boring and time consuming task. Moreover I expect that person should understand point quickly without my too much explanation." It may be as you say a very boring and time consuming task but you need to back up with specific examples your broad sweeping generalization if you want people to consider your statement accurate and creditable. Show some examples where you think HPB made mistakes ...hopefully major mistakes in the SD. A few....two or three or 5 of them. HPB may have made some mistakes ..... but does that negate the worth of the SD. Please ponder on what KH said in the quote I gave you earlier in this letter. Are you also trying to say that Leadbeater, for example, never made any mistakes comparable to what you think HPB did? I really wonder if you have carefully thought all of this through. Show some prime examples of HPB's mistakes and furthermore why we should rely on Leadbeater's writings over HPB's writings. Daniel http://hpb.cc Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 17 00:39:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10055 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 08:39:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 08:39:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m27.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.8) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 08:39:03 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id j.199.34ac350d (1320); Fri, 17 Dec 2004 03:37:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199.34ac350d.2ef3f4df@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 03:37:51 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.8 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 How fractal evolution works... http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/fixedtree.gif ... Is an interesting animation, related to ABC theory that describes how emanation of a dual entwined (positive-negative) ray (Superstring?) of Primal Force fractally involves radially (cyclically and vortically) out of the initial "spinergy" (or abstract motion) surrounding the absolute zero (laya) point -- to initially form the "coadunate but not consubstantial" fields of universal consciousness... That continues ("as above so below") in descending phase orders of frequency-energy, to eventually replicate into the seven fold fields of human consciousness. This also indicates why analogy and correspondence is a basic rule for understanding theosophical metaphysics or occult science. For diagrams showing how this works, see: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif Science today -- while it is gradually approaching an understanding of mu ltidimensional hyperspace fields (Superstring/M-brane theory, quantum field theory, etc.) that are analogous to the ABC fields, and is beginning to comprehend the relationship of the Aether (lower Astral field that, besides being the magnetic model of all forms of life, is also the medium of light) to the physical or metric fields of matter -- has still a long way to go before their wished for "Unified field Theory" (that baffled Einstein for more than 30 years) can become a scientifically proven reality. But, first, they have to solve the "hard problems" of explaining the "experience of consciousness" and "brain-mind binding" that is still baffling all of science -- even after the past 10 years of serious study as a recognized scientific discipline. This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awareness and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related to the zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level of zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... While being the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance" between fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understanding they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity and quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely new and synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) paradigm. When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge with religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamental truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and the unity and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning up its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). Best wishes, Leon Maurer http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics From samblo@cs.com Fri Dec 17 02:46:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60688 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 10:46:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 10:46:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 10:46:38 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e4.30b4b779 (4196) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:42:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e4.30b4b779.2ef41228@cs.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:42:48 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.35 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Forum Members, This is the "Real Samblo," --Who ever sent the E-mail post about "Photo's" is an impostor, I sent no such post. Eldon, please look into this ASAP. If you notice the Screen Name is not identical to my regular (since 1999) Screen Name "Samblo." I am reporting this to CompuServe also. "---------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xm03.mx.aol.com (rly-xm03.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.104]) by air-xm02.mail.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILINXM22-60141c1dba3355; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:02:26 -0500 Received: from n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.94.237.51]) by rly-xm03.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXM37-60141c1dba3355; Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:01:55 -0500 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.30] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:35 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38473 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yahoogroups.com) (80.202.254.127) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2004 18:57:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.202.254.127 From: samblo@cs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; contact theos-talk-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:58:25 +0100 Subject: Theos-World Re: Old photos Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AOL-IP: 66.94.237.51 X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:0:0: X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 Message-ID: <200412161402.60141c1dba3355@rly-xm03.mx.aol.com>" This may have been an attempt to infect the forum Members. Eldon, please inform me directly of your findings. John From samblo@cs.com Fri Dec 17 02:58:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71835 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 10:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 10:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m15.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.205) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 10:58:27 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e6.30e6d194 (4196) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:56:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e6.30e6d194.2ef4156b@cs.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:56:43 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.205 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Krishtar, I did not post that E-mail Krishtar, I am as surprised as you are. I have no idea what the Photo's indicated might have been as the protection against attachments on the Forum stripped it away before reaching us. It is some fraud for sure, likely a worm or virus spreading itself using an infected PC E-mail address lists from users. My Screen Name always has a capitol "S," Samblo. The "return header" may have useful data, but I read last night there is a new worm rampant in all countries in Europe, it is posted on Google currently. Be very careful every one, we live in an Internet mine field. Be sure to install Anti-virus and Firewall software and keep things tightly secure. John From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Fri Dec 17 03:38:45 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1731 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 11:38:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 11:38:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 11:38:44 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [200.193.3.218]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C594C33FA8 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:38:20 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002f01c4e42c$a2075520$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:56:07 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRINE??Krishtar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel You should not care about Anand=B4s posts like this. It is not the first time this same text is posted, I sincerely think he doe= s this as a hobby. He never repplies your comments. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Daniel H. Caldwell=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:12 PM Subject: Theos-World Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRIN= E?? Anand verus Koot Hoomi on Blavatsky's SECRET DOCTRINE?? Anand made a sweeping statement that Madame Blavatsky's "writing has many mistakes to the extent that it is not possible to recommend for reading even a single book by her." Not a single book....so even Anand would not recommend Blavatsky's THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Compare his estimation with that of Master Koot Hoomi: "I have also noted, your thoughts about the 'Secret Doctrine.' Be assured that what she [HPB] has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . ." Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, Series I, p. 47 Daniel http://hpb.cc =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Fri Dec 17 04:08:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94072 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 12:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 12:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 12:08:19 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [200.193.3.218]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 74A8033EB3; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:08:17 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <005901c4e430$d0f50c20$0301010a@versus> To: , References: <1e6.30e6d194.2ef4156b@cs.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:06:18 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Internet is really as you said, a mine field. I thought it was some sort of old HPB pictures or something similar. Last week I installed an anti-spyware in my PC and it detected more than 50= spywares! I used Ad-Adware SE. These objects intelligently scan your preferences, your internet-cookies, y= our general interests and stay quietly in your machine, sending these info = for many companies or people. I also sometimes receive emails from "myself" , coming from my internet pro= vider!!! And notice that I am not schizo! I am looking for a free firewall software and if you know one that is good = , or any of you are aware of, ( references are always welcome) just tell me= and I=B4 ll be thanked in advance. I can still recall when I first caught my first virus...it was the "Stoned"= ...Dreadful nostalgia.( smiles) Good luck Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: samblo@cs.com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos Krishtar, I did not post that E-mail Krishtar, I am as surprised as you are. I = have=20 no idea what the Photo's indicated might have been as the protection agai= nst=20 attachments on the Forum stripped it away before reaching us. It is some = fraud=20 for sure, likely a worm or virus spreading itself using an infected PC E-= mail=20 address lists from users. My Screen Name always has a capitol "S," Samblo= .=20 The "return header" may have useful data, but I read last night there is = a new=20 worm rampant in all countries in Europe, it is posted on Google currently= . Be=20 very careful every one, we live in an Internet mine field. Be sure to ins= tall=20 Anti-virus and Firewall software and keep things tightly secure. John=20 =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 07:09:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15643 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41527.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 80143 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Dec 2004 15:09:16 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=18/snCpieQxCa8+x9EDes2aQgmeXm1xRj8m/LRiM2+hB9dBfsTZUM4M5fe6Kx4MzjntL1CnIhoOhVN1QUgZe2TNPLsI4UI6vOImRK88MEfl6nYeA06epL0gjxwgHWiU27UaGJcdP7Pgb20kmXEApZKB+KUvvx551YkB3vY9CkNE= ; Message-ID: <20041217150916.80141.qmail@web41527.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [148.177.1.213] by web41527.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:09:16 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:09:16 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.134 From: Towers1209 Reply-To: towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Theos-World LEARN,PROJECT AND SEE YOUR SELF -- Kamal X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=205723283 X-Yahoo-Profile: traveller1209 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kamal Singh Rajput wrote: I wish, some one write a book on DO IT YOUR=20 SELF =96 ASTRAL PROJECTION. ...Kamal-S-Rajput... Kamal somebody did... (1) Astral Dynamics: A New Approach to Out-of-Body Experiences by Robert Bruce, Professor C. E. Lindgren (2) Far Journeys by ROBERT MONROE (3) Journeys Out of the Body by ROBERT MONROE=20 (4) The Ultimate Journey by ROBERT MONROE=20 Book (1) is a sort of do-it-yourself book; books (2) to (4) are the experie= nces of Robert Monroe regarding his awakening to, examination/exploration/e= xperimentation with out-of-body experience (OOBE, as the astral projection = is now more commonly called...) Also, see the ff websites --- http://www.monroeinstitute.org/, www.astraldy= namics.com I hope this helps.... Loreto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Dec 17 08:09:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70605 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 16:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 16:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m18.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.208) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 16:08:59 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.d7.1c110eee (4206) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:08:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:08:53 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.208 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World LEARN,PROJECT AND SEE YOUR SELF -- Kamal X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 12/17/04 9:11:10 AM Central Standard Time,=20 towers1209-theosophy@yahoo.com writes: <<=20 I wish, some one write a book on DO IT YOUR=20 SELF =E2=80=93 ASTRAL PROJECTION. >> There are tons of them out there. Just go to www.amazon.com and type "astr= al=20 projection" in the search box. Chuck the Heretic From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Dec 17 08:51:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78538 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 16:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 16:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 16:51:42 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfLK6-0004MS-5u for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:51:22 -0500 Message-ID: <41C30E8A.80401@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:51:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20041217053601.13901.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041217053601.13901.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba6a1baa0ee52c84b28899df62430919253d22eb99cf5c6dcb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Cass Silva wrote: > As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a > native english speaker or writer of english, language > misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by > KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but > there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when > this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific knowledge, I look for the following: 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current scientific knowledge? 3) Is there any evidence that this comes from information that was received second-hand, which is incorrect? For example, in Mahatma Letter #65 (by the way, anybody who wants to do serious Theosophical research should get a copy of THEOSOPHICAL CLASSICS; for $24.95, it's an incredibly useful tool, containing ISIS UNVEILED, THE SECRET DOCTRINE, THE MAHATMA LETTERS, THE COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H.P.B., and several other sources): "What does modern science know of force proper, or say the forces, the cause or causes of motion? How can there be such a thing as potential energy, i.e., an energy having latent inactive power since it is energy only while it is moving matter, and that if it ever ceased to move matter it would cease to be, and with it matter itself would disappear?" The reason why I often use this statement as an example is that it clearly shows that the Koot Hoomi is clearly using an incorrect definition of the term, "potential energy". Give the definition that he is using, he is most probably correct, but if you ignore the definition, then he is wrong. There IS such a thing as potential energy, but it is NOT what is being described. So, applying the three tests: 1) One might assume that Koot Hoomi is personally familiar with then-current knowledge of physics, and knew what was meant by the term "potential energy." 2) By looking at the definition rather than the term, it DOES fit with current scientific knowledge. 3) Since this was an answer to a letter written by a non-physicist, it is not unreasonable that the letter contained the term "potential energy" with the incorrect definition. It has been theorized, and has so far stood up to all experimentation, that humans can only think in terms of symbols. The problem with symbols is that they can be manipulated into something self-contradictory, and therefore meaningless. For example: The sentence on the next line is false. The sentence on the previous line is true. We appear to have a paradox. What we have is a bunch of glowing phosphors on a screen, or a bunch of drops of inks on a piece of paper, that appear to create a meaningful pattern, but in fact create a meaningless pattern. While I would not go as far as the late philosopher, Jacques Derrida, in his theories of Deconstructionism, he DID have a good basic point that language is always ambiguous. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Dec 17 09:00:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11329 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 17:00:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 17:00:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 17:00:19 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfLSk-00080D-Gw for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:00:18 -0500 Message-ID: <41C310A3.5040103@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:00:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <1e4.30b4b779.2ef41228@cs.com> In-Reply-To: <1e4.30b4b779.2ef41228@cs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba6a1baa0ee52c84b2dcbb106de4fd8b1f795b3f24a9f74b7f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.153.238.175 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 samblo@cs.com wrote: > This is the "Real Samblo," --Who ever sent the E-mail post about "Photo's" > is an impostor, I sent no such post. Eldon, please look into this ASAP. If you > notice the Screen Name is not identical to my regular (since 1999) Screen > Name "Samblo." I am reporting this to CompuServe also. I send this so often, I should probably keep a copy as a reference post: Short version: These days, having your name on the "From" field of an email with an attached virus is pretty good evidence that it did NOT come from you. Long version: It used to be that viruses were eliminated by the infected party, finding a bunch of returned emails or warnings from recipients, checking out his or her machine, and getting rid of this. Virus authors, not liking this, came up with an alternative. The "from" field on emails is not fixed; there is good reason for this (for example, I have several email addresses from several different domains, but can only use the SMTP server on the network into which I am logged). So what virus authors did was to not only have the virus send the message to every email address it could find on the infected computer, it also put found email addresses on the "From:" field, to further confuse matters. Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Dec 17 09:08:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40592 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 17:08:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 17:08:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 17:08:40 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.127] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CfLao-0002As-Kj for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:08:38 +0000 Message-ID: <41C3133A.10703@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:11:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <199.34ac350d.2ef3f4df@aol.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on chi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn leonmaurer@aol.com wrote, in part: > How fractal evolution works... > This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awareness > and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related to the > zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level of > zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... While > being the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance" between > fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understanding > they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity and > quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma > electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely new and > synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) paradigm. > > When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge with > religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamental > truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and the unity > and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning up > its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). > > Best wishes, > > Leon Maurer > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics Leon, those kinds of efforts remind me of the efforts of those "gods" like Osiris during the "First Time" (Zep Tepi) in ancient Egypt. So maybe if you were to build a few impressive pyramids or some kind of equally impressive things, as well, would that help to impressive the natives that more is going on than meets the average native eye ... ? Not that your ABC's might not necessarily be seen as impressive enough, maybe, in some sense, maybe ... but then if your ABC's get the same kind of interpretive treatment that the pyramids have had from orthodox Egyptologists, well ... ^:-/ ... Good Luck, anyway. Mauri PS Been reading Hancocks FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS, lately. Fascinating. From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Fri Dec 17 09:15:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41261 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 17:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 17:15:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 17:15:01 -0000 Received: from versus (200-215-101-014.jvece7001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.101.14]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 792C335C1 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:14:59 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <003b01c4e45b$a9f85e80$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:13:01 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Kamal - Krishtar - Conscience projection X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Kamal In Brazil, there is an institute called IIPC (IAC) and its purposes are the developing the projection of conscience. There are special courses that anybody can do. The International Academy of Consciousness (IAC) is a non-profit organization dedicated to the scientific study of the .consciousness (human essence, soul). The IAC is maintained through revenues generated from its own activities. As a non-profit organization, all income is re-invested in research and the further development of its existing services. The link is http://www.iacworld.org/. See for yourself. Regards Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Dec 17 10:50:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21130 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 18:50:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 18:50:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 18:50:45 -0000 Received: from [209.179.218.195] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfNB5-00012b-9R; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:50:17 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=S6tAszC01XyAredNePenLkYK9XDx8RI3eeSrHuRuo6gF0U9yVfa0xRYuPM58e0yS; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:49:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c4e469$3cdf4260$c3dab3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec796d47e8b23778287daee3186f313dc018350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.218.195 Subject: RE: HPB admitted she misunderstood teaching given by Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 17 2004 Re: "Faults" said to be in SECRET DOCTRINE ?=20=20 Are you saying the MASTERS are wrong?=20=20 Dear friend Anand, and other friends: First of all:=20=20 Have you found some errors in HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE or other writings ?=20=20 Can you detect any ? A list would be helpful, or, is this written by you out of doubt or envy ? Does it betray your own limitations ?=20=20 If on the other hand, the SECRET DOCTRINE is truthful, as the MASTERS vouch for it, and say they produced it along with HPB, then why do you oppose THE= M ? [ See certificate given, below copied.] I trust, that in publishing this, you do not mean to imply that you feel obligated, or able, to try to "correct" HPB ? If Mr. Subba Row was correct, then why did he not write some articles that correct the book? His opinion, given to Olcott (as reported) is lacking in both substance and evidence. I wonder if you realize that it is you who are trying to place doubts concerning HPB, the Masters, and the SECRET DOCTRINE in the minds of reader= s or potential students.=20=20 BUT WHY ? WHAT DANGERS ARE TO BE FOUND THERE ? I remind you of the CERTIFICATES of authorship that the Masters gave to the SECRET DOCTRINE=20 Best wishes, Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Anand Gholap=20 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 3:09 PM To:=20 Subject: HPB admitted she misunderstood teaching given by Masters On 4 th January 1887 HPB wrote letter to Col. Olcott after Subba Raw=20 (S.R.) gave opinion about Proem of SD.=20 HPB writes=20=20 " ........Let S.R. do what he likes. I give him carte=20 blanche. I trust in his wisdom far more than in mine, for I may have=20 misunderstood in many a point both Master and the Old G. (other=20 Adept). They give me facts only and rarely dictate in succession. I=20 am no maker of books you know it........" It not only tells wisdom of SR but also tells that she did=20 misunderstand things which went into her writing. Later when she sent draft of Secrete Doctrine to Subba Raw for=20 correcting mistakes. He went through it and told her that if he was=20 to correct it he would have to write whole book again.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CERTIFICATES GIVEN BY THE MASTERS There exists the certificates given by the Masters to Dr. Hubbe-Schleiden - reprinted in PATH for 1893, Vol. 8, pp. 1-3.=20=20 These read:=20=20 AUTHORSHIP OF SECRET DOCTRINE A good deal has been said about the writing of Isis Unveiled, and later of the Secret Doctrine, both by H. P. Blavatsky.=20 A writer in the spiritualistic journals took great pains to show how many books the first work seems to quote from, and the conclusion to be arrived at after reading his diatribes is that H.P.B. had an enormous library at he= r disposal, and of course in her house, for she never went out, or that she had agents at great expense copying books, or, lastly, that by some process or power not known to the world was able to read books at a distance, as, for instance, in the Vatican at Rome and the British Museum.=20=20 The last is the fact. She lived in a small flat when writing the first book and had very few works on hand, all she had being of the ordinary common sort. She herself very often told how she gained her information as to modern books. No secret was made of it, for those who were with her saw day after day that she could gaze with ease into the astral light and glean whatever she wanted.=20 But in the early days she did not say precisely to the public that she was in fact helped in that work by the Masters, who gave from time to time certain facts she could not get otherwise. The Secret Doctrine, however, makes no disguise of the real help, and she asserts, as also many of us believe, that the Masters had a hand in that great production.=20 The letters sent to Mr. Sinnett formed the ground for ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, as was intended, but as time went on it was seen that some more of the veil ha= d to be lifted and certain misconceptions cleared up; hence the SECRET DOCTRINE was written, and mostly by the Masters themselves, except that she did the arranging of it. For some time it was too much the custom of those who had received at the hands of H.P.B. words and letters from her Masters to please themselves wit= h the imagination that she was no more in touch with the original fount, and that, forsooth, these people could decide for themselves what was from her brain and what from the Masters.=20 But it is now time to give out a certificate given when the Secret Doctrine was being written, a certificate signed by the Masters who have given out all that is new in our theosophical books. It was sent to one who had then = a few doubts, and at the same time copies were given from the same source to others for use in the future, which is now. The first certificate runs thus: "I wonder if this note of mine is worthy of occupying a select spot with th= e documents reproduced, and which of the peculiarities of the "Blavatskian" style of writing it will be found to most resemble? The present is simply t= o satisfy the Doctor that "the more proof given the less believed." Let him take my advice and not make these two documents public. It is for his own satisfaction the undersigned is happy to assure him that the SECRET DOCTRINE, when ready, will be the triple production of [here are the names of one of the Masters and of H.P.B.] and _______ most humble servant, [signed by the other.]" On the back of this was the following, signed by the Master who is mentione= d in the above: "If this can be of any use or help to _____, though I doubt it, I, the humble undersigned Faquir, certify that the Secret Doctrine is dictated to [name of H.P.B.], partly by myself and partly by my brother ______." A year after this, certain doubts having arisen in the minds of individuals= , another letter from one of the signers of the foregoing was sent and reads as follows.=20 As the prophecy in it has come true, it is now the time to publish it for the benefit of those who know something of how to take and understand such letters. For the outside it will all be so much nonsense. "The certificate given last year saying the SECRET DOCTRINE would be when finished the triple production of [H.P.B.'s name], ________, and myself was and is correct, although some have doubted not only the facts given in it but also the authenticity of the message in which it was contained. Copy this and also keep the copy of the aforesaid certificate. You will find the= m both of use on the day when you shall, as will happen without your asking, receive from the hands of the very person to whom the certificate was given= , the original for the purpose of allowing you to copy it; and then you can verify the correctness of this presently forwarded copy. And it may then be well to indicate to those wishing to know what portions in the Secret Doctrine have been copied by the pen of [H.P.B.'s name] into its pages, though without quotation marks, from my own manuscript and perhaps from ______, though the last is more difficult from the rarity of his known writing and greater ignorance of his style. All this and more will be found necessary as time goes on, but for which you are well qualified to wait." ONE OF THE STAFF --- PATH, April, 1893 =20 ------------------------------------------ Additionally --: In The PATH for July 1895, Mr. Judge published an article:=20 "H.P.B. ON MESSAGES FROM MASTERS."=20=20 [Reprinted in WQJ Articles, Vol. I, p. 55] It reads: "Some years ago H.P.B. was charged [ by A. P. Sinnett ] with misuse of Mahatmas' names and handwritings, with forgery of messages from the Mahatmas, and with humbugging the public and the T.S. therewith. Those charges had floated vaguely about for sometime...afterwards, writing on the subject in "LODGES OF MAGIC" [ HPB Articles 1, p. 291 ] in LUCIFER [Vol. 3= , pp. 92-3 ] the question of genuineness or the opposite of such messages was dealt with, and what she wrote is here presented for reconsideration.=20=20 It covers two matters. FIRST, it proves out of her own mouth what the PATH not long ago said that "if one letter has to be doubted then all have" to be doubted. Hence if th= e "Letter to some Brahmins" ["Prayag Letter" -- MAHATMA LETTERS, p. 461-3 --] is a fraud, as Col. Olcott and another say, then all the rest are, also. SECOND, it applies precisely to the present state of affairs in respect to messages from Masters, just as it she had so long ago foreseen the present and left the article so that tyros in occultism, such as the present agitators are, might have something to show them how to use their judgment. The portion selected from her article reads: "We have been asked by a correspondent why he should not "be free to suspect some of the so-called 'precipitated' letters as being forgeries," giving as his reason for it that while some of them bear the stamp of (to him) undeniable genuineness, others seem from their contents and style, to be imitations.=20=20 This is equivalent of saying that he had such an unerring spiritual insight as to be able to detect the false from the true, though h= e has never met a Master, nor been given any key by which to test his alleged communications.=20=20 The inevitable consequence of applying his untrained judgment in such cases, would be to make his as likely as not to declare false what was genuine and genuine what was false. Thus what criterion has any one to decide between one "precipitated" letter, or another such letter= ? Who except their authors, or those whom they employ as their amanuenses (th= e chelas and disciples) can tell? For it hardly one out of a hundred "occult= " letters that is ever written in the hand of the Master, in whose name and o= n whose behalf they are sent, as the Masters have neither need nor leisure to write them; and when a Master says: "I wrote that letter" it means only that every word in it was dictated by him and impressed under his direct supervision.=20=20 Generally they make their chela, whether near or far away, write (or precipitate) them, by impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish expressed, and if necessary aiding him in the picture printing process of precipitation. It depends entirely upon the chela's state of development, how accurately the ideas may be transmitted and the writing-model imitated. Thus the non-adept recipient is left in the dilemma of uncertainty, whether if one letter is false all may not be, for as far as intrinsic evidence goes, all come from the same source, and all are brought by the same mysterious means. But there is another and far worse condition implied. All the so-called occult letters being supported by identical proofs, they have all to stand or fall together. If one is to be doubted, then all have= , and the series of letters in the OCCULT WORLD, ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, etc., etc., may be, and there is no reason why they should not be in such a case ,-- frauds, "clever impostures," and "forgeries" such as the ingenuous though stupid agent of the "S.P.R." has made them out to be, in order to raise in the public estimation the scientific acumen and standard of his "Principals"... [H.P.B.] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =09 The scope of the original Theosophical literature HPB produced and to which the Masters certified (PATH, Vol. 8, p. 1 -3) is adequate proof of this fact. In addition, the MAHATMA LETTERS provide us with further demonstrations of the ubiquity and power of perception that a real knowledg= e of THEOSOPHY provides. Yes, both HPB and the Masters have said that nothing ought to be taken on "faith," or blindly. But that does not imply they erred.=20=20 I have found no serious refutation of the philosophy or the=20 facts of history adduced in the "original literature" that alerts us to any real need for describing THEOSOPHY as faulty. If there are any of the general principles that are found to be flawed, I woul= d very much like to have those exposed.=20=20 With profound personal respect for HPB her sacrificial work, old, feeble an= d infirm, and for the Masters of Wisdom who inspired this magnificent effort -- who are we to carp? And complain? Or seek to demean that work?=20 In my opinion we know so little ourselves, all of us, that it is inappropriate to criticize. Let me add=20 Theosophy will only be understood by those who study and seek to understand it. To rely on opinions (specially mine, or of anyone else) is unfair to Theosophy because none of us can do it justice. At best we can only tell others of what we have learned (or not learned) from it.=20 The potter who made the cup and saucer found among tangled roots of plants is Simla (India, the Himalayan Town North of New Delhi) was not questioned. The cup was used to provide tea at an impromptu picnic.=20=20 The SECRET DOCTRINE can sit on one's shelf indefinitely, but, until one reads it, one has no concept of its contents. No amount of opinions portray the contents of the book nor can they predict a reader's reaction to studying it.=20 I therefore always encourage direct contact because any other writing about Theosophy is inevitably opinionated -- it is second-hand Theosophy at best. But the respect we show for its teachers and messengers is due to the work They did and continue to do. ------ provides his opinion -- to which he is entitled. The proof of the value of THEOSOPHY lies in the reader's comprehension of what is offered there. To offer an opinion that may dissuade a potential theosophist from making direct contact and framing therefrom his own opinions, is dangerous in my esteem.=20=20 Theosophy is not proved or demonstrated by the discovery of spare tea cups and saucers to match. Theosophy is offered as a practical way of living, based on actual universal Laws of all life, and the history, recorded by th= e Sages, of its evolution.=20 Let me show from documents of the early days of the teaching of Theosophy what is said by Master K H in a letter to Col. Olcott delivered at sea on board the S. S. Shannon as he was coming to Europe in 1888 : -- "Try to remove such misconceptions as you will find, by kind persuasion and an appeal to the feelings of loyalty to the Cause of truth if not to us.=20 Make all these men feel that we have no favourites, nor affections for persons, but only for their good acts and humanity as a whole.=20 But we employ agents -- the best available. Of these for the past thirty years the chief has been the personality known as H. P. B. to the world (bu= t otherwise to us). Imperfect and very troublesome, no doubt, she proves to some, nevertheless, there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come -- and your theosophists should be made to understand it.=20 Since 1885 I have not written, nor caused to be written save thro' her agency, direct or remote, a letter or line to anybody in Europe or America, nor communicated orally with, or thro' any third party. Theosophists should learn it. You will understand later the significance of this declaration so keep it in mind. Her fidelity to our work being constant, and her suffering= s having come upon her thro' it, neither I nor either of my Brother associate= s will desert or supplant her. As I once before remarked, ingratitude is not among our vices.=20 With yourself our relations are direct, and have been with the rare exceptions you know of, like the present, on the psychical plane, and so will continue thro' force of circumstances. That they are so rare -- is you= r own fault as I told you in my last.=20 To help you in your present perplexity:=20 H. P. B. has next to no concern with administrative details, and should be kept clear of them, so far as her strong nature can be controlled.=20 But this you must tell to all: -- With occult matters she has everything to do. We have not abandoned her; she is not "given over to chelas."=20 She is our direct agent. I warn you against permitting your suspicions and resentment against "her many follies" to bias your intuitive loyalty to her= . In the adjustment of this European business, you will have two things to consider -- the external and administrative, and the internal and psychical= . Keep the former under your control and that of your most prudent associates= , jointly; leave the latter to her.=20 You are left to devise the practical details with your usual ingenuity. Onl= y be careful, I say, to discriminate when some emergent interference of hers in practical affairs is referred to you on appeal, between that which is merely exoteric in origin and effects, and that which beginning on the practical tends to beget consequences on the spiritual plane. As to the former you are the best judge, as to the latter, she.=20 I have also noted, your thoughts about the "SECRET DOCTRINE." Be assured that what she has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from the works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor, a= n epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come. . . . " LETTERS FROM THE MASTERS OF WISDOM 3rd Series, p. 52-4 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Altering The SECRET DOCTRINE Why ? Why would one desire to alter the Secret Doctrine ? Is there a secret desire to prove that in some respect the alterer is superior to HPB or to the Masters ? HPB showed herself a true teacher when she wrote: " Do not follow me or my path; follow the Path I show, the Masters who are behind." We can see the wisdom in this advice when we consider the course of history - of those who judged the "teaching" by what they could see of the "teacher." They judged her by their standards. Not by her adhesion to the Theosophy she taught. W. Q. Judge had the same judgment passed on him, historically, because he upheld HPB first, last, and all the time. Why is that so ? Is it not because there were those who were fearful of "authority ?" So fearful that they tried to convey the impression that they knew better than she, and could "explain her away." The results of this are plain today, a 100 years later, as many who claim to be "Theosophists," or "students of theosophy," have scanty concepts as to what Theosophy (as a body of knowledge) says or teaches. They are usually unfamiliar with what H P B wrote. Even the KEY TO THEOSOPHY is usually unstudied by them That it offers the freedom from creedal restraints and is eclectic, everyone applauds. That its societies and other student-bodies offer forums for mutual study and debate is recognized as a plus.=20=20 But THEOSOPHY ? As a Philosophy, as a Doctrine ? How many know it chapter and verse so as to be able to explain it to new-comers as well as to themselves. Why is it that Theosophical doctrines cover: -- 1. the 3 Fundamentals (Universality, Law, Evolution and perfection for all), 2. the 7 Principles (Spirit, Wisdom, Mind, Emotions, Life, Model body, physical Body), 3. the 3-fold Evolutionary scheme (Spirit, Mind, Form) - 4. the Immortality of the MONAD, and its interminable gyrations through evolution from High to low and from low to high - 5. the development of CONSCIOUSNESS and Intelligence, 6. Reincarnation, Karma, Causality, Responsibility, 7. and Potential PERFECTION for all. Some of HPB's critics looked actively for "mistakes." - and found some minor ones - as to whether they were hers or those of proof-readers is not known. [ See H P B's MY BOOKS ] In any case those critics made claims, overt or subtle, to an "authority" (or a "scholarship) which she never claimed They endeavored to minimize the only SOURCE on which reliance could be placed, while those who were truly wise invariably pointed to her as the Teacher to whom all alike should look. This was Mr. Judge's attitude then; and others, who have followed have found, and will find, where she pointed. Both can be considered as true collaborators. What is our present work ? Are we not striving to learn what Theosophy can teach ? Are we not looking to be united in that understanding ? If we try to assimilate the teachings of Theosophy we will soon find that proofs are everywhere. Then, differences of opinion are seen for what they are and gradually vanish. This is not to say that some new creed should arise, or that any Dogmatism, or fundamentalism should flourish.=20=20 But if a goodly number of us find that Theosophy is accurate,=20 should we not speak of it as such and encourage each other to=20 review individual findings and assure ourselves of that=20 universality and exactitude ? The Path is open to all, but each=20 has to find and tread it by his own will and self-choice. Those who can read have the opportunity to look at all the several editions (of The SECRET DOCTRINE ) that have been=20 published, and decide for themselves which will be the most=20 valuable and trustworthy.=20 The "Kali-Yuga" moves swiftly, and in 125 years we have seen unroll many of the conditions and trials that it took Christianity over a=20 thousand years to witness unrolling. A wise man once wrote: " The path of true Occultism and that of immorality do not coincide. The Masters do not judge anyone, nor can They "forgive" anyone for sins of omission and commission. Masters have to use such material as exists. If anyone has lapses, so much the worse for him and for the work. It should also be remembered that so long as one is willing to stay in the world for the work, he can. Each stays, or goes out in accordance with the own desire. The door is never shut on him by the Law..." [ F P - R C ] Dallas From aupanishad@msn.com Fri Dec 17 11:43:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65437 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 19:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 19:43:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.109) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 19:43:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:43:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:42:16 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "JOYCE SMITH" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:42:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:42:18 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2004 19:43:00.0782 (UTC) FILETIME=[9DC80CE0:01C4E470] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.109 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: Holidays X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Asalaan 'aikym Xmas, All! (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aupanishad@msn.com Fri Dec 17 12:05:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98892 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 20:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 20:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.172.112) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 20:05:02 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:05:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 12.218.110.251 by BAY5-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:04:07 +0000 X-Originating-Email: [aupanishad@msn.com] X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com To: "GROUP - Bob" , "GROUP - Erica/Morten" , "GROUP - Juan" , "Jane - Bipolar" , "Jill - Vestal Virgin" , "Juan Schoch" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:04:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0009.2900 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:04:09 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Dec 2004 20:05:01.0448 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0F5B080:01C4E473] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.172.112 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: [12.218.110.251] Subject: That's hard to get right drunk! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Salaam [Xmas] 'alaikum and 'Alaisum Salaalm to all my (forrmer?) friends 'Asalaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Dec 17 14:24:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 729 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2004 22:24:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2004 22:24:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m20.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.1) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2004 22:24:49 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.1e9.317c999f (3850); Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:20:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e9.317c999f.2ef4b5b9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:20:41 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.1 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Science and Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Steven, Thanks again. However, I think you misinterpreted my statement. It was not intended to imply that theosophy has any need to "appeal to scientists or people." But it did say that (as HPB pointed out} theosophy must be taught ("spread broadcast" she said) to ordinary people in such a manner, and in the "language of this age" -- so that they will understand the fundamental truth behind the immutable scientific laws that govern karma and reincarnation -- which will, in turn, prove to them that altruism and universal brotherhood is a law of nature... HPB also said that it was the duty of all theosophists through self devised and self determined study and effort to arrive at self realization so as to translate that teaching into the "language of this age," and in turn, transmit it to the world at large. The Masters knew that such knowledge would be the only way to teach them that to break such a law -- by ignoring it or "acting in a manner not in accord with nature" (i.e., committing such "sins" as separation of one's self from other selves, harm to other beings in any way, etc.) whether in thoughts or deeds -- leads to karmic retribution in this life and future lives yet to come... And, that each one's destiny is completely in one's own hands. All the rest of the "bleeding heart" ideas and preachiness that rely on sentimental "love thy neighbor," "turn the other cheek," "thou shalt not...," etc., admonitions has never worked in the past and certainly will never work in the future. So, in order for people to accept those laws, and thereby, give up their selfish materialism that leads to wars, ecological disasters, and other problems of the world -- not to mention a retardation of human evolution -- they must either find out the scientific truths behind karma and reincarnation, themselves, or accept the teachings of their "gurus" -- who today are the "scientists" of every discipline (and particularly, those working on advanced multidimensional string theories that are getting closer and closer to theosophical metaphysics, as HPB predicted) and who will eventually prove those truths (with a little kick in the ass by my ABC theory that puts consciousness into their pictures:-) so that everyone can understand them... As simply as Einstein explained the ideas of relativity and the true metaphysical nature of physical reality -- that is counter intuitive with respect to our "educated" material "science" (which gives us our Cell phones, etc.), or to our physical senses conditioned by that same false Science (but working technology). Please note, that quantum and relativity theories are mutually incompatible -- since quantum physics is just a limited aspect of true metaphysics, that is nothing more than a contrived mathematical concept which enables the solid state digital technology to work. It is no more valid as an overall picture of reality than was Newtonian mechanics prior to the Einstein theories or relativity -- which proved E=mc^2, curved space, gravity as a spatial distortion due to mass, light as both energy and mass (a wave and a particle), etc., (all of which came directly out of the Secret Doctrine). See: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html Fortunately, there is much more in the SD (especially, when it explains the origins of and connections between consciousness and matter, mind and brain, etc.)... But, unfortunately, Einstein died before he could prove a "unified field theory" -- that had to include consciousness. (BTW; The ABC theory picks up where he left off.) Also, unfortunately, most people accept the materialist view that the quantum physicists are satisfied with -- since it works for them, and justifies the selfish materialism of the beneficiaries of their technologies... The so called "ordinary man in the street"... That dreamily wanders through life suffering in a fog of ignorance about who and what he truly is, where he is really going, and why all he has to look forward to in life is a few moments of ephemeral pleasures before losing all the powers and things he so laboriously gathered and finally dying and rotting in a grave? And, isn't it a shame that whatever he left behind, including his offspring, is left holding the same bag in the same blind mess of a world he left behind in worse shape than when he came into it. It's this assuredness of material life as the only reality and their separateness from it of the dyed in the wool materialists and gullible religionists (most people) that has to be broken down intellectually first, before one can "become like a child" (or baby) ... When one can directly accept the true reality and one's unity with it -- along with the complete intellectual (as well as intuitive) assurance that it couldn't be any other way. Remember, to be such a baby in intuitive consciousness, without such intellectual understanding of the true reality in one's already mature mind, would not enable one to continue functioning in this world and be a responsible adult with all the obligations that one would still have to fulfill -- not to mention having the important ability to teach that understanding to others -- which is the obligatory role of all true theosophists. Such a change of mind, spread throughout the entire human race -- is what theosophy, as given out in this time and age, is all about. Otherwise, why would HPB devote more than 90% of her writings to the explanation of the theosophical metaphysics? So, who is there that can do that spreading (other than us theosophists who know how to explain theosophy in plain English so, not only a scientist, but also a child could understand it)? Incidentally, I've explained ABC to pre teen age children, and they have no problem understanding it, and fitting it in with their scientific and technological understandings. The only problem is (among those not brainwashed by religious parents) they give more credence to their science teachers and their materialized explanations (since they are afraid to include consciousness in their teachings). So, I disagree with your interpretation of theosophy as solely "the science of being human." Theosophy was not given out to the world primarily for that purpose. All the world's religions and yoga's already covers that more than adequately -- without having to write almost 2000 pages of the Secret Doctrine (and even much more pages than that in explanatory articles by both HPB and WQJ) to scientifically explain the metaphysics behind those moral-ethical teachings. It was given out so that all the previous religious teachings that relied on faith in personal Gods, Messiahs, revelations, vicarious atonement's, commandments, preachments, etc., etc., would be countermanded with a clear and final scientific understanding of metaphysical reality, proving the reality of karma and reincarnation as well as one's own responsibility for both self salvation (realization) and the salvation of the entire human wave of evolution -- that would need no "higher" authorities or "Gods" to enforce. But, which would enforce itself through knowledge and understanding, alone. Universal brotherhood cannot become a reality and the world saved from destruction by man's misunderstanding of his responsibility for it, or by goody-goody preachment, or by edicts, or by sitting in empty minded meditation contemplating ones navel. That understanding, based on a true knowledge of both Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis was the only purpose for theosophy as it was given out to the modern world... As the "esoteric" teaching of scientific metaphysics based on fundamental principles that, when understood properly, would justify all theosophical moral and ethical precepts. Therefore, unless everyone thoroughly understands that scientific metaphysical basis of the true nature of ALL reality (with the help of the advanced science that is gradually approaching these truths) -- the human race will keep on muddling along in its ignorance until the entire world comes crashing down around us, and as HPB warned, the entire human race (what's left of it) will fall back another million years of evolution. When are we going to learn that theosophists talking to and arguing with theosophists will never get us anywhere? That is why (in my work on ABC which interprets theosophical metaphysics in scientific terms) I am interested only in spurring the academic scientists along their destined path to eventually merge their science with theosophy -- so that they, as the gurus (having now gained a scientific "religion" themselves:-) of the masses in this age, can convince those masses of the truths of karma and reincarnation. When that happens, theosophy will be recognized as the true "science of life" by everyone, and we students can then become the respected teachers of the coming new 6th sub-race during this Aquarian Age. I believe that that's all the Masters and HPB expected from any of us. Not to disagree with your observations about science -- I hope this clarifies my own view with respect to Science and Theosophy, and why theosophists must learn how to explain theosophy in scientific terms if they want to be of any use to the "Movement" in this most critical time in theosophical history. It's good to remember that none of the teachings were given out solely for our own personal salvation or enlightenment -- but entirely so that we each, through study and practice, can become an individual "nucleus of universal brotherhood" and "better able to help and teach others." Best wishes, Leon "Steven Levey" I writes: Leon Great job of collating all of this discussion. The only difference in my mind is regarding this: "To see it this way, in the only way that theosophy will ever be able to become scientifically valid in the eyes of ordinary people. And, by so understanding, eliminate its "mysticism" engendered by the theosophical jargon that prevents them from comprehending the scientific basis of karma and reincarnation, or the universality of the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity upon which these "processes" and all the laws of nature are based upon." To tell you the truth, I don't think Theosophy has any need to make itself appealing to the scientists or "ordinary People" of this day or any other. In fact I think, it is quite in the reverse. Not that scientists need to make their "jargon" more appealing, but, since each scientist is a human being first, like "ordinary people", and Theosophy is the science of being human, it is in that sense that they (both Scientists and ordinary people) will have to "know" the similarities, then the jargon will be irrelevant. "Knowing" as I am using it, is the mystical connection available to anyone, and the language of expression will often differ per person, not to mention Movements. Theosophy, as an international movement, which takes on the name appropriate for a given period of human cultural history, regardless of society names, is simply the meaning behind things manifest. Therefore, Science is in the business of making material sense out of what has been "Known" for ever, by anyone, "ordinary people" included, who have clarified themselves enough to see those meanings. And I mean, anyone. My youngest daughter unconsciously knows things about the world that I have forgotten or covered up by my so-called adult intellectualism. Ergo the phase of Jesus: "You must become as a child to enter into the Kingdom". This is real life, where knowing happens all of the time, and Science will no more validate or invalidate this (mystical) awareness no matter what they do. I don't mean to sound cynical about Science (ha, it must sound like it), only the prevailing attitude it engenders. This culture obviously benefits immensely from Science turning its findings into useful goods of all kinds. Steve -- In theosophia@yahoogroups.com, leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Steve, > I think it would be more pertinent to answer you below in the form of a > dialogue in response to: > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 14:16:22 -0000 > From: "Steven Levey" > Subject: Re: Digest Number 73 > > > Leon-I have to admire your thoroughness in your critique of the > article. > > [LM] Thanks. Once I get wound up in trying to explain any point or > conclusion based on my theory of ABC -- which doesn't deviate in one iota > from the occult metaphysics taught ("in the words and between the lines") in > the Secret Doctrine -- I like to dot every i and cross every t while avoiding > any theosophical jargon. Especially, the difficult to define Sanskrit words. :-) > > [SL] However, do you really think that anyone in Modern Science will > really be able to satisfy all of the criteria necessary to actually > describe the occult existence of something which actually exists > within "spiritual" Space? I mean, you have to admit, he has done > well. And when he leaves the "gyron" creation up to Newton's God, > isn't he really saying Karma? I mean a number of very intuitive men > such as Newton were lacking terminology for what they "felt", and did > the best they could. Even Karl Boehme, the Swiss Occultist used the > term "God" to describe the Law of Karma. It was just the only > language he had (German) and needs to be taken in the context of his > other explanations. > > [LM] Of course, science will never be able to describe any occult existence > of the inner fields -- so long as they base their description on objective > evidence. However, there's no reason why such existence can't be described > mathematically as well as logically from a scientifically valid geometric and > topological point of view -- so that non theosophists can understand it. And, > also, it could be described scientifically if the physicists would admit > the validity of subjective evidence. > > Remember, HPB said that everything in the universe was "electrical" in > nature, and she also left no gaps between the abstract source of both > consciousness and matter and the first emanation of the "abstract motion" or > spinergy that formed the first phenomenal fields of material substance or triune > monadic "fields of consciousness" which, in turn, ultimately involved through five > iterations into the initial dual 7-fold nature of the primal universe. "The three, > the one, the four, the one, the five, the twice seven, the sum total" -- to > quote the Book of Dzyan (which, in fact, is what the whole Secret Doctrine is > based on). > > Wasn't the whole purpose of HPB's presentation of a scientific theosophical > synthesis designed to eliminate the vagaries and misconceptions that those > mystic philosophers had engendered by their loose language and references > to "God" as the "creator"? And, didn't she make great effort to give us a > thorough and complete glossary that explained all the foreign term she was > forced to use because of the limitations of the English language and the > primitiveness of science during her time? Today, however, with the advent and > progressive development of modern and post modern physics and cosmology, its a > whole new ball game. I'm not much interested in trying to explain theosophical > metaphysics to those theosophists who can read the SD and find it out for > themselves -- except in terms that can help them transmit this knowledge in > the "language of this age" to the non theosophically educated masses. Isn't that the > whole purpose of revealing this teaching to the modern world? > > [SL] Also, the broad concept of Akasa says that it is all that there is > in terms of "field", although it contains elements of more and more > material "weight" as this field is inhabited by thinking beings who > therefore, populate that field with a predominance of materially > oriented thought. It is this predominant egocentricity which > determines the density of what we call Astral, by attracting > appropriately "weighty" elementals, which is really the "lower" > Akasa. The Buddhi, as it exists as a "seventh" (called the sixth > Universal principle) of great nature, is as much Akasa as is the > Human Buddhi. IN this sense all of the principles are really an > aggregate of Akasa or Muliprakriti (Root Cosmic Substance), and it is > animated or inflated by Purusha (The Great Breath), which is really > Atman, even as it permeates each incarnation as Consciousness, using > the Akasa as appropriate vehicle. (Again, whose density is determined > by either the lack of or existence of egoity). > > I think the article postulates a "measurement" of egoity by the > number of "gyrons" which I think is his way of naming, what in > Theosophy, are called the elementals. > > [LM] I think you are stretching these "gyrons" far past their scientific > reality. They start, like all of modern material science, at the beginning of the > so called "Big Bang" -- which is the visible and metric "appearance" of this > physical universe, and makes no mention of the Big bangs on the higher planes > as they first awakened in their own higher order spheres of hyperspace. > Thus, while the "gyrons" may relate to the advanced physics based on scien tific > materialism, they have no validity insofar as explaining the nature or origin of > consciousness and its relationship to the fields of matter that constitute > the spiritual, mental, astral and physical "bodies" of either the Dhyan Chohans > or the elementals -- not to mention all the "beings" between and beyond them. > IMO, to stretch these physical gyrons to comprehend the nature of egoity of > all the descending beings is going a bit too far. > > Egoity, on the other hand, from a theosophical POV, is rooted in the > reflected and fundamentally "empty" zero-points themselves, and not in their > surrounding spinergy or abstract motion (momentum) that gave birth to all these > descending and ascending "fields of consciousness." On the higher planes of reality, > both Solar and Universal, these "empty" zero-points represent the "selves" of > the Dhyan Chohans or the Solar Pitris. On the lower planes of planetary > life, they represent the Lunar Pitris, and ultimately, the self in each human > being, as well as the "individuality" or point of potential consciousness within > each lower being, down to the smallest quantum particle, as well as the > "elementals"... All of whose superficial actions are reflected in the next higher > astral fields and eventually down (or up) to the Akasha -- that, as vibrational > patterns within (or on) their (non substantial) "spinergy," carries the eternal > record -- which, as "information," is not related to any particular > phenomenal field in their fundamental (substantial) structures... Except, in that these > "structures" or membranes of primal force coenergetically "carry" or modulate > those informational patterns as they transfer from one field to the other -- > with the zero-point "spinergy" of the spiritual field being the "carrier" of > the final eternal Akashic record. This conforms analogously with all the laws > of electricity, even down to the way radio waves "carry" the informational > modulations of our TV shows and our cell phones. So, there's nothing mysterious > in all that. > > In essence, this Akashic field of more or less eternal memory of the actions > or experiences occurring on any field surface or plane, can only be stored in > the "spinergy" at the zero-point center of origination of each field -- that, > in turn, reflects back to the primal zero-point-instant (the "ultimate > division of time" on the spiritual plane) they all originated from. As above, so > below. To see it this way, in the only way that theosophy will ever be able to > become scientifically valid in the eyes of ordinary people. And, by so > understanding, eliminate its "mysticism" engendered by the theosophical jargon that > prevents them from comprehending the scientific basis of karma and reincarnation, > or the universality of the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity upon > which these "processes" and all the laws of nature are based upon. > > Hope this covers it, > > Best wishes, > > Leon From silva_cass@yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 21:07:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16867 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 05:07:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 05:07:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.77) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 05:07:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 84675 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 05:07:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=UAZTz4KC9/MRKhaNjzOn62gCjRkm4+z8O4SUTqCEOOBJzk5QhMc/8nq1+gVkcUNYrinBs4c0249o4qTEKqIKpKZIcLWHJz6M73CCjZtOmkSHM7YqviCDk3av3npNjVNadjIQ841KQCS+XscOGqp+gE5LAdPALfuTmXx8PCiJGxM= ; Message-ID: <20041218050733.84673.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:07:33 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:07:33 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.77 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World That's hard to get right drunk! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Same to you Andrew Smith wrote: Salaam [Xmas] 'alaikum and 'Alaisum Salaalm to all my (forrmer?) friends 'Asalaam Alaikum," (Says) Al-Hallaj Kabir Ali "La ilaha il'Allah!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 21:11:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75485 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 05:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 05:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.76) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 05:11:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 34928 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 05:11:17 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Z9D8wSw7mbMoInWtP4cselQY4XmXD4qtMsDIUQT4xsYu6R7EKBok63etG5JjvWw5gLCpzi0TwC1/I/2ZmY2ImcJgHqesKiVn8HWoLOKXHPK8rDZ1Xtdtd3OXd/tPzK442gvHVBLJHfgRoyy7fV1MqfIBBVs85DuyhRjGScZzLTI= ; Message-ID: <20041218051117.34926.qmail@web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90105.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:11:17 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:11:17 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C3133A.10703@idirect.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.76 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World How fractal evolution works - part 2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome back Mauri wrote: leonmaurer@aol.com wrote, in part: > How fractal evolution works...=20 > This won't occur until scientists realize that consciousness (as awarenes= s=20 > and will or intent) is a universal aspect of fundamental reality related = to the=20 > zero-point itself... That is everywhere (contiguous on the highest level = of=20 > zero-point energy) and is the central origin of all fields of force... Wh= ile=20 > being the basis of the so called "entanglement" or "action at a distance"= between=20 > fundamental quantum particles on any level. With this ultimate understand= ing=20 > they will also be able to synthesize information theory with relativity a= nd=20 > quantum theories, along with recent theories of Aether physics, plasma=20 > electrodynamics, holographic paradigm, etc., and come up with an entirely= new and=20 > synthetic scientific (physics, biology, cosmology, physiology, etc.) para= digm.=20 >=20 > When all this is accomplished, science will be able to finally merge with= =20 > religion... And, the rest of Mankind can go about learning these fundamen= tal=20 > truths, absorbing them (along with the eternality of spirit or self, and = the unity=20 > and connectedness of all that they imply) into their souls, and cleaning = up=20 > its act (that is now driving the world toward it ultimate destruction). >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 > Leon Maurer > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics Leon, those kinds of efforts remind me=20 of the efforts of those "gods" like=20 Osiris during the "First Time" (Zep=20 Tepi) in ancient Egypt. So maybe if you=20 were to build a few impressive pyramids=20 or some kind of equally impressive=20 things, as well, would that help to=20 impressive the natives that more is=20 going on than meets the average native=20 eye ... ? Not that your ABC's might not=20 necessarily be seen as impressive=20 enough, maybe, in some sense, maybe ...=20 but then if your ABC's get the same kind=20 of interpretive treatment that the=20 pyramids have had from orthodox=20 Egyptologists, well ... ^:-/ ... Good Luck, anyway. Mauri PS Been reading Hancocks FINGERPRINTS=20 OF THE GODS, lately. Fascinating. Yahoo! Groups Links =09=09 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 Get yours free!=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 21:14:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44062 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 05:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 05:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.81) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 05:14:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 90948 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Dec 2004 05:13:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=cVlvc6sbETC8HSNw19ukLmoAPhrv7ip7x5zE280vWh/gdFLwCaBiy/t9Kubf5H5/isHLAtv8OYLNtApHO3H1itwwqK+ToLHRIDgobG6Q3BYoqRJ9e2MWfwL3NK6lu057dRlgThwNHZnPnkVVeM5uNF0nQGsY+TTn2MnjI7CaxuA= ; Message-ID: <20041218051301.90946.qmail@web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90110.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:13:01 PST Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:13:01 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41C30E8A.80401@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.81 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Errors in the primary literature X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Need time for this one! Bart Lidofsky wrote: Cass Silva wrote: > As these ideas were so revolutionary at the time and HPB was not a > native english speaker or writer of english, language > misinterpretations may have occured which were cleared up by > KootHoomi. I do not believe that the truth was misinterpreted, but > there arose a need for words to describe the undescribable and when > this happens the words are misinterpreted but never the message. That is why I use the following rule in reading the primary literature: If the Secret Doctrine differs from current scientific knowledge, I look for the following: 1) Am I making assumptions which are not necessarily warranted? 2) Is there a way of interpreting the words to conform with current scientific knowledge? 3) Is there any evidence that this comes from information that was received second-hand, which is incorrect? For example, in Mahatma Letter #65 (by the way, anybody who wants to do serious Theosophical research should get a copy of THEOSOPHICAL CLASSICS; for $24.95, it's an incredibly useful tool, containing ISIS UNVEILED, THE SECRET DOCTRINE, THE MAHATMA LETTERS, THE COLLECTED WRITINGS OF H.P.B., and several other sources): "What does modern science know of force proper, or say the forces, the cause or causes of motion? How can there be such a thing as potential energy, i.e., an energy having latent inactive power since it is energy only while it is moving matter, and that if it ever ceased to move matter it would cease to be, and with it matter itself would disappear?" The reason why I often use this statement as an example is that it clearly shows that the Koot Hoomi is clearly using an incorrect definition of the term, "potential energy". Give the definition that he is using, he is most probably correct, but if you ignore the definition, then he is wrong. There IS such a thing as potential energy, but it is NOT what is being described. So, applying the three tests: 1) One might assume that Koot Hoomi is personally familiar with then-current knowledge of physics, and knew what was meant by the term "potential energy." 2) By looking at the definition rather than the term, it DOES fit with current scientific knowledge. 3) Since this was an answer to a letter written by a non-physicist, it is not unreasonable that the letter contained the term "potential energy" with the incorrect definition. It has been theorized, and has so far stood up to all experimentation, that humans can only think in terms of symbols. The problem with symbols is that they can be manipulated into something self-contradictory, and therefore meaningless. For example: The sentence on the next line is false. The sentence on the previous line is true. We appear to have a paradox. What we have is a bunch of glowing phosphors on a screen, or a bunch of drops of inks on a piece of paper, that appear to create a meaningful pattern, but in fact create a meaningless pattern. While I would not go as far as the late philosopher, Jacques Derrida, in his theories of Deconstructionism, he DID have a good basic point that language is always ambiguous. Bart Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sat Dec 18 01:21:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59764 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 09:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 09:21:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m19.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.11) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 09:21:50 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.f7.460e4ef2 (4196) for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 04:21:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 04:21:45 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.11 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Bart, Thanks for reposting the information in the interest of all of us. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 05:35:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39472 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 13:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 13:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 13:35:02 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.7] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cfejb-0005gw-G9; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:35:02 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=P7KUfgh41cxPNqyz/kgS00hwK4AjXG/kJdtuq5eRP3jaRJfXNkMkFB6rJrLg24en; To: Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4e506$5f926290$0792b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <200412161057.1cF0OHJC3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d7d97d2f54aa71d6ba779132ba162bf9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.7 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Old photos X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 What ? Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: samblo@cs.com [mailto:samblo@cs.com] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:58 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Old photos Have a look at these. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 05:36:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86833 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 13:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 13:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 13:36:51 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.7] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cfel5-0005gw-HZ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:36:41 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE; b=bjl3vXKOQv3PMqwwU3vhZzhtgbUgzGfbR1xkbGzA9aqMTusiDT1pvetL2VNADx+U; To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000d01c4e506$960b8b80$0792b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f1ca3629eb8e88b00b9ec3c45262cc57350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.7 Subject: Re: ASTRAL BODY SOURCE & TRANSFORMATIONS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 ASTRAL BODY SOURCE & TRANSFORMATIONS To isolate this process of determining the source and need for an "Astral Body" within the physical form requires a study of the SECRET DOCTRINE. In SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I we are given (p. 181) as a hint the fact that evolution is three-fold : (1) spiritual, (2) psychic, and (3) physical. We have to follow these lines of development, and in so doing the history o= f our past is to be found. Here are some notes on the cycles of evolution that involve each immortal Monad [ATMA-BUDDHI or Spirit / Matter unit] in its innumerable incarnations= , called in the SECRET DOCTRINE the ROUNDS (each such "Round" being a circlin= g through the 7 GLOBES) -- see diagram on SECRET DOCTRINE, I, p. 200. In each Round a particular faculty is perfected, analogous to the sequence of the PARAMITAS given in The VOICE OF THE SILENCE (Fragment III, p. 52-3) There is also a correspondence to the 7 PRINCIPLES of Man on which a posting, with details can be sent. (S D I 157-8) A "Round" consists of 7 "Globes" and again, in each of these the sub-facult= y relating to the "Round" is brought to its perfection by numerous incarnations. Each of these Paramitas (virtues) are said to correspond to the 7 "Globes" pictured in the Diagram of the S D. [S D I 200, 157-8; II 596 ] The future, we are told, leads us all to a "Moment of Choice" [S D I 247, 265; II 149, 249, 261, 300-1; M L p. 47] where humanity has to choose whether it will continue its evolution spiritually, in harmony with brotherly cooperation, justice, and mercy for all -- compassion, is the right word. Each individual is now engaged in making this momentous determination.=20 We have to understand that in this the Fourth Round, and particularly on Globe [D] there is a recapitulation of the evolutionary stages already passed through in the three earlier ROUNDS.=20=20 Our present is GLOBE D, Fourth Round. It stands alone and is a balance position., It corresponds to Paramita [ 4 ] VIRAGA: and is three-fold: 1 indifference to pleasure as to pain, 2 illusion conquered, 3 truth alone perceived. [VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 52 3rd Fragment] If we look at S D I 200 and the diagram there, we will see that the progress of future evolution for all beings, leads from GLOBE D spiritually, up to Globes E, F, and G. [Higher Manas, Buddhi, Atma] These Globes [ E, F, G ] correspond to the last 3 Paramitas: 5 VIRYA (dauntless energy that fights its way to the supernal truth out of the mire of lies terrestrial);=20 6 DHYANA (whose golden gate leads the Narjol towards the realm of Sat eternal and its ceaseless contemplation} and, [Narjol -- see Gloss: pp 188= , 225, 381] 7 PRAJNA (the key which makes of a man a God, creating him a Bodhisattva, son of the Dhyanis.) Those who are intuitive may draw from this a concept of what lies in store for each of us. FIRST 3 RACES OF MANKIND - AN OVER-VIEW =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D There is probably no part of the Secret Doctrine which offers a more startling contrast to the opinions of modern men, than the information laid before us in reference to the origin of mankind on earth.=20=20 As a fundamental idea we are to consider each human is an immortal being. = =20 It reincarnates (under the Law of Karma) so as to acquire knowledge and wisdom through experience. Each incarnation may be considered to be like a "day" spent in learning in the vast "School" of continuous Earth-life.=20 It considers a three-fold process:=20=20 1) SPIRITUAL, (considered as ATMA-BUDDHI of the conjoined eternal "PRINCIPLES," and forming the stable, eternal, base of Ideals -- of altruism , universality, impersonality, universal LAW, and undeviating mora= l rectitude);=20=20=20 2) of the PSYCHICAL (considered as the duality of Buddhi-Manas and Kama-Manas) a condition wherein there is the progressive development of moral responsibility by the Monad considered as a psycho-mental entity -- where virtue is perceived and invariably acted on; and=20 3) of a 'PHYSICAL FORM' which is permanent, stable, and responsive to ever= y need of the fully conscious, living, spiritual and purified psycho-mental Man {Buddhi-Manas}. - this, latter, may be called the "permanent astral, or "causal body." [S D I 181-2] Neither common knowledge, nor science, furnishes us with particulars of primeval man that may be at all comparable with the scheme of development exposed in the SECRET DOCTRINE, of mankind in this, the Fifth RACE, of the Fourth GLOBE, in the Fourth ROUND. In the SECRET DOCTRINE, we are provided with a survey of the steps of the process of an intermeshed three-fold human development, but anterior to the Fourth Round H.P.B. offers only some glimpses. There, the history of the world in the first Three "Rounds," and the pre-human forms and existences associated therewith are treated.=20 In this short survey, the progress of the Monad that (in ROUND 4, GLOBE D) has now entered the "human (MANASIC) stage" (of you, I, and all of us). After passing through these early stages, it is now surveyed in the positio= n just passed the mid-point of its "Fourth Round." (S D I 150 fn)=20 We note that H.P.B. states that we are all the same Egos who went by the process of reincarnation through the periods of experience called the first three Races (of the 4th ROUND) - those preceding were named the "Hyperborean," the Lemurians, the Atlanteans, and now, our Fifth "Race" is named the "Aryan" [or 'noble'] stage of humanity. Among all those who read this, it is taken for granted, that the Three Fundamentals of the SECRET DOCTRINE=20 [ 1. UNIVERSAL SPIRIT or DEITY,=20=20 2. UNIVERSAL and JUST LAW, and=20=20 3. UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION by all the immortal MONADS]=20=20 have been studied, understood, (S D I pp. 13-20] and will be remembered a= t every stage. The following, is applicable to the intelligent consciousness [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] residing in the physico-astral form of every man and woman on our earth.=20=20 This survey begins in the dawn of time represented by the opening of the present Manvantara. It is a reincarnation of a long succession of earlier ones. We see that the SECRET DOCTRINE traces anthropogenesis down to a period, which, to a student of Theosophy, is almost a recent one, the establishment of Man as a being plunged in learning the value exhibited by its existence in a cooperative environment. That is, in many ways, the daily contrasts of attitude and perception that bodies of male and female sexes provide.=20=20 The chief difficulty is considering the history of the human race at those ancient points where the present world of 'western' science and history is ignorant. Because of this, and because of inaccurate speculations based on a selected few physical relics and fossils being used as an index for the presumed intelligence of forms in the past, there is difficulty in giving any intelligible description of the appearance of the earliest beings from whom our present physical mankind has, during the lapse of untold ages, graduall= y been developed.=20 Occultism states that in this Round mankind as a "form," first appeared; and all forms were subsequently derived from this primitive model. One of the statements is that the ape-form was derived as a specialization of the primitive human form. [The first law of evolutionary Science declares that = a "specialized" form (such as that of an ape) can not generate one more primitive (such as a human). It can only descend from such a form. Thus, th= e ape-form "descended" (was derived) from the more primitive man-form.] For those commencing the study of Theosophy, the subject might have been made easier to illustrate, if the origin of Man had been started at this, our own time, and retrogressed from there. We are in the Fifth "Race" of th= e Fourth "Round." Apart from the SECRET DOCTRINE and a few hints of myth, lor= e and tradition, no trace of a connected history of the origination of a "Fifth Race" exists.=20=20 Modern (western) civilization has no coherent historical narrative extendin= g prior to a time earlier that about 4,000 B, C, -- or about 6.000 years; while the Fifth Race alone has had (teaches the SECRET DOCTRINE) an independent existence for more than a million years; [S D II p. 10; M L 150] and modern science, in its latest speculations postulates the antiquit= y of mankind as a physical form being at most a couple of million of years. [Leaky - Olduvai] Nor can any history previous to 6,000 years be recognized as, for instance, in the scanty reference to Atlantis (mentioned by Plato, who died 347 B.C.)= . And even he gives no date of its disappearance. In the SECRET DOCTRINE and the MAHATMA LETTERS [pp. 151, 155] this was fixed at 9,564 B. C. (in 1882). Every reference to Atlantis has for centuries been derided, but onl= y recently a few authorities have considered the possibility of the event of the submergence of the home of a past nation beneath the Atlantic ocean. [see Submerged extensive ruins in the Caribbean Sea.]=20 The three earliest "Root Races" of this present "Fourth Round" on the Fourt= h "Globe" are associated with a "home" of its own; and so, too, are the later Races. These lands were given names for easier reference. [S D II pp. 2 - 12] One of the titles accorded to the "First Race" of "Spiritual Entities" was: "the Sons of Will and Yoga," Their home is the "Imperishable Sacred Land." It is located geologically in the "Hyperborean regions."=20 The Second Race, the "Sweat Born," dwelt on the "Great Hyperborean Land." The Third Race, the "Egg Born," in its early days, and which, developing later on into beings with sex, developed on the vast crescent shaped continent of "Lemuria."=20 The Fourth Race dwelt primarily on a mid-Atlantic continent; the Fifth Race= , [Aryan] developed on the continents that have toady, an appearance resembling the geography of the earth as we now know it. It is said that tremendous changes of levels, of hills and valleys, of the seas and rivers, have taken place even in its geologic course of existence. The "Imperishable Sacred Land," the continent of the First Race is said to be the only portion of the earth's surface continuing permanently through millions of years of subsequent development, and it will remain so until th= e end of the Manvantara -- through each Round -- until it bears the final spiritualized form of the divine men. It is said that: "from the dawn to th= e close of twilight of a day of Brahma, the Pole Star has its watchful eye upon it." The continent used by the Second Race, known as the Hyperborean, that is, beyond the Northern, or Polar region, comprised what we know now as Norther= n Asia, it stretched southward from the Northern Polar district in undefined promontories. In those distant times it knew no winter, and was an abode o= f ethereal mildness, fabled by the Greeks to be the dwelling-place of Apollo = - a glyph of the life-giving sun. The Third Race, marked by entire changes of substance, structure and being, grew on Lemuria (a name adopted from P. L. Sclater (1860), but not the real name). The Pacific ocean now covers much of this continent, whose dry land, including part of modern Africa, extended in a great crescent shape from Spitzbergen in the Arctic to Australia and New Zealand in the south. I= n the language of modern geology it was named a "pre-tertiary formation." = =20 Atlantis, (used by the "Fourth Race") followed, developed and disappeared a= s a unit before the end of the Miocene period. The Fourth Race Atlanteans, and the rise and progress of the seven branches of the Fifth (our) Race during the more recent thousands of years (actually a few millions) is yet to be described in great detail. We can see in the SECRET DOCTRINE that important assistance is rendered by the Occultist to science, by an ordered use of reasoned analogy.=20 The origin of spiritual, psychical and physiological mankind is a subject o= n which the clearest light is shed in the second volume of the SECRET DOCTRINE. If we study the physical life history of modern man from ovum to maturity we may note most of the stages through which the physical development of the human race has passed.=20 It shows how a simple living being can grow and multiply by division. Our microscopes show us this. The child becomes physically, equal to the parent= s and the parents do not die. From this most simple type of reproduction, nature still produces every form of differentiation, in a process well regulated by evident internal Law, called budding. The mass of new cells become a layer, the layer divides into three. In them is laid the backbone and the centers of life energy for the future being; blood vessels, nerves and all the specialized organs becoming when finally organized, the perfect man of matter, inspired by its model: the astral for= m (which always acts from within, as the personal mold of the human being in formation), and this, in turn, is vivified by the individual life essence, Prana, guided by the all powerful hand of individual and personal Karma. In this way, the SECRET DOCTRINE shows how the human race in this, the fourth Round, originates (and continues to originate, materially) from the magnetic and karmic power of its former Chhayas (shadows). Humanity, arising in the First Race of the fourth Globe of this, the Fourth Round, some three hundred million years ago, according to the SECRET DOCTRINE, constituted the "Race" named the "Sons of Will and Yoga." This i= s group also known of as the Agnishwatta Pitris -- divine, spiritual beings -= - the "Fathers" and the "Instructors" of primordial mankind. [S D II 167] Physically, men of the First Race were the shadows of Shadows; they were shadows of the astral bodies of the Lunar Pitris, that is, those Monads who were, as a host, considered to be our "ancestors," and representing the perfection of development on the "Moon-Chain of Globes."=20=20 The "Moon-Chain of Globes" furnished the earth (its 'child') with its first human envelopes - formless shadows -- derived from the astral forms of the most advanced Monads of that preceding sphere (whose dead shell is now the Moon). The primeval form of man was a "Linga Sharira" (an astral form), warmed into life by Prana, the life essence from the interior Spiritual Sun (the ATMA) of each "Man."=20=20 It took three and a half "Races" [in time on this, the Fourth Globe] to perfect the "descent into matter" to its present, grossest point.=20=20 Mindless, speechless, bodiless, these senseless bhutas (phantoms), were too ethereal to be percipient of, or affected by any convulsions of Nature. Age= s passed, and the material body grew denser as the astral consolidated, and so, today, the material body is consolidated out of its astral model. It is taught at that time they were still spiritually fireless, practically deathless, were luminous - incorporeal - aeriform - mindless shadows, which the Lunar Pitris had "breathed out" (developed and emanated). These Lunar Pitris [fathers], divine in their spiritual nature, were able t= o oversee, without interference, the natural development of forms to the end of the Third Round.=20 But the essential link in every Monad between Spirit and Matter remained to be forged. MANAS (personal mind) and KAMA (desires and passions) had to be given time to assimilate one another, and learn to make conjoined progress. The Man-Monad of Mind, self-controlled, and controlling the forces of Kama, needed to be evolved. This is our present stage. [S D II pp. 79-81, 93-96, 109-110] The Monad, ATMA-BUDDHI, the EGO, or the Higher Man, is said to be a Ray of the Universal Monad, born of MAHAT [Universal Mind Essence]. It brooded ove= r this spectral form, which, because of the absence of Manas was unconscious on our plane, and, was only a senseless shell; a-manasa. The Higher Man (Buddhi-Manas), we now recognize, was "afar off." The Mind, Manas, the Human Soul (Kama-Manas), was still absent. The Kama -- passions -- were still at rest, undeveloped. This almost inconceivable First Race passed on into the Second Race without either begetting it, or procreating it, and without what we call death. A thorough transformation occurred; as the ancient records say, "they passed by together, they ceased and others took their places."=20=20 Occultism (using its mystic symbology) mentions twelve classes of creative powers, of which four reached "perfection" by the end of the Manvantara, th= e "Great Age;" a fifth is ready to reach it; and seven others always acting under the Law of Karma, act on the globes of our planetary chain.=20=20 Old Hindu books mention Seven Groups of Pitris, or "Ancestors;" and two distinct classes - those who possess the "Sacred Fire" and those without it= . The higher class are called the Agnishwatta Pitris, they were devoid of creative energy, because too pure and divine.=20=20 A lower class called the Barhishad Pitris, were possessed of creative energy, these are "Lunar spirits," who were devoid of the higher Mahat-mic element and could not form a conscious, divine, man-god on earth. This faculty, conscious divinity, the higher group, the Agnishwatta Pitris could give. In the meantime, acting under Karma, the Barhishad Pitris, did provid= e an astral form on which a human physical body could be consolidated later.= =20 The Agnishwatta Pitris, or Fire Dhyanis (The WISE), are the heart of the Dhyan Chohanic "Lodge," and it is they who, later on, incarnate in the Thir= d Race, bringing to them Manas, and by this link between the higher and the lower principles, render Man a perfect septenary, as we now know him. [S D II 167] Regarding the "Second Race," whose denser forms gradually replaced the shadowy forms used by the First Race, we should recall we are viewing a period of the descent of the human "spiritual Principles" into matter. It is taught: the First Men were spiritual within and ethereal without; while the Second Race was "Psycho-spiritual within, and Ethero-physical without." Many shapes were used and their forms were (to us) gigantic. These semi-human monsters reproduced themselves by budding, gemmation, and by expansion and the separation of their own material, and, they were named the: "sweat born."=20=20 Still, we are told there was no "death," only transformation, the older being giving up its body to form newer beings, and it continued to exist with them.=20=20 This form of reproduction was asexual: still, at that time, there was no principle of Kama, no individual will, nor a personal "body of desire." These forms were produced without thought or desire, unconsciously under Karmic Law, even as some lowest forms of animal life are today. In the very latest stages of the of the Second Race. We are told there dawned the primitive, weak spark of understanding, and also, sounds began t= o be heard, sounds of a developing language were heard in tones like the vowels, soft and fluent. Passing from these glimpses of the first two races, we reach in the Third Race a more concrete stage passed through in the "forms" of humanity, and w= e obtain a deeper insight into the modes and progress of physical and psycho-mental evolution. The ages progressed, and we, who were then in the Third Race, whose domain was Lemuria, and whose presiding powers were associated with Lohitanga and Sukra - Mars and Venus.=20=20 Lemuria, we are told, was destroyed at last by fire, subterranean convulsions broke up the ocean floors, giving vent to the concealed fires o= f the earth's interior. Its successor, Atlantis, by contrast was overwhelmed by water, and the consequent floods followed successive disturbances in the axial rotation of the Earth. We have still, it is asserted, one link remaining with the ancient domain of Lemuria, the islands of New Zealand an= d parts of Australia, and southern California.=20 =20=20 In associating Lemuria with the dates accepted by the science of modern geology the SECRET DOCTRINE teaches that it was in the main destroyed 700,000 years before the Tertiary Period had begun. The Lemurian, Third Race [in time] is the most notable because its median period produced the more perfect physical man. To this man-form was grante= d MANAS, Mind, Consciousness; for the Lower Quaternary, as now we know it in the human being, was thus linked to the Supernal Triad of Atma, Buddhi and the Higher Manas.=20 The Monad, instead of merely brooding over the lower man, exhibited a more intimate connection with the earthly shell, and inspired it (with "desires" or, Kamic elements) to a state of consciousness of its own nature and powers, and rendered possible for spiritual aspirations to reach to the seats of the personal life.=20=20 Until then, there was no real "death." Until man possessed Kama, the source of desire; and until Manas was seated in the Septenary, the full effect of Karma could not appear, for moral responsibility did not yet exist. Karmaless there was no Nirvana to attain, no Kama Loka for the shell after death, no Devachanic interlude of peaceful rest. But with Kama [instinct, passion, emotion, desire] and its vagrant and fanciful tendencies to be controlled; and Manas, evolving full consciousnes= s on the plane of physical life, morality and the higher aspirations became apparent, while, as a contrast, selfishness, the desire to have and to hold= , made for the emergence of vice, selfishness, sinfulness and shame. These disharmonies began to attract and then meet with Karmic adjustment and punishment from the past.=20=20 By this impulse, nations drifted deeper into the illusions and limitations of matter, and heavier became the faults of those who chose the descending arc, and began to use degenerative moral processes. These we are told, continued through the Fourth Race when the most evil Karma was generated.= =20 Physically, we are taught, the Third Race exhibited a gradual change of reproduction, passing from the Sweat Born to Ovulation. Then, from a condition of androgyne being, development at last formed mankind into entities with reproductive contrast.=20=20 Human males and females (in physical bodies) became distinct beings, and modern mankind arose; and; it has so continued through millions of years.=20 Coincident with these changes, the body hardened, and all the internal organs became more perfect. The forms were still massive, gigantic, and the Secret Doctrine suggests somewhat ape-like. [S D I 187-9; II 185, 261-2]. Some of these changes are to be seen recapitulated foetal life.=20 Coincident with sex development, the Kamic (desires and passions) principle became dominant, for when the reproduction had been by gemmation, budding, or oviparous, it had been unconscious under the process of natural law; and not the conscious promptings of the animal passions which, now, were felt. The fully-developed Third Race man was of yellow complexion, a golden tint marked the nations; some scattered tribes of almost direct descent from the= m [that] still remain are in the interior of China.=20=20 At the close of the Third Race we may perceive a vast change in the constitution of physical man, in regard to his pristine state at the openin= g of the Fourth Round. To form an exterior "shell," an astral form (alone in the earliest first race) the material body was condensed. Life energy [Prana] supported and vivified by the addition of Kama, the principle of desire, love and all the passions, made the perishable "Lower Quaternary" complete:. The "Eternal Pilgrim" of the Upper Triad broods yet over it [fro= m within its 'prison'], but without union. [S D II 103, 243, 246-48, 585,] The SECRET DOCTRINE shows how this Divine Triad [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] became, by the descent of Manas into the perfected animal man-form, to occupy a closer connection with men of the Third Race [S D I 244-5; II 79, 176]. Th= e "Eternal Pilgrims," the Monads are these Manas-putras -- "Sons of Mind."=20 In evolution, under Karmic law, they have to pass through all experiences t= o attain by self-induced choice, to wisdom [S D I 534; II 113, 134fn, 275fn]; and, thus, to pass up the steep path of the spiritual cycle [GLOBES E, F, G.]. These, {the Divine Triad [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] } incarnate in th= e latter part of the Third Race, and transformed the mindless men into beings with minds and "consciousness."=20 With this advent the sure knowledge of good and evil was instilled. Legend and myth tell us that some of the fully developed latest Third Race men wer= e towering giants of godlike strength and beauty. They became the first Divin= e Instructors of Mankind [S D I 272-3], and the nations of the still late= r races looked back on these superior beings as the demigods, the hero deitie= s of a bygone golden age. Towards the end of this Third Race material progress grew. It was ruled and taught by these divine beings. Civilizations originated, cities and temples were founded; arts and sciences were cultivated. The simple vowel sounds used by the last Second Race men developed, and, in the Third Race, articulate speech began with mono-syllabic utterances. [S D II 198-200] Manas (the capacity to reason, think, imagine, remember, proceed logically) is link between the Quaternary of lower principles (Personality) and the divine Triad (INDIVIDUALITY). It was furnished by the Solar Pitris (Agnishwatta Pitris), the Divine Progenitors [S D II 94, 103, 164, 167, 243, 246-8, 585,] even as the original "form" was the gift of the Lunar Pitris or Astral-form progenitors. The three higher classes of Arupa (formless) Pitris supervised this change.=20 Many names have been given to these supernal beings: Agnishwatta, celestia= l ancestors, Sishta, Fire Dhyanis, Solar Pitris, Lords of Flame and the Heart of the Dhyan Chohanic Body. One-third of the Dhyanis, we are told by the Book of Dzyan, were doomed by Karmic law to re-incarnate upon this earth before attaining further perfection.=20 [S D II 94, 167, 246, 489, 585]=20 They are also called in a mysterious manner the Fifth Hierarchy presided over by Makara (the principality associated with the zodiacal sign of Capricornus). These "projected the spark," that served to impart Manas to the A-manasa, (mindless shells) of humanity. [S D I 233, 238, 246, 265, 275, 571; II 85]=20 We are told some of those who had refrained from incarnation hastened to do so and carry on their progress, and for this delay, they were made by Karma to repent of their procrastination; they incarnated in human-kind - lest worse evil should befall the already defiled earthly frames; and mankind recognized what had been the "sins" of the "mindless." [S D II 180, 185, 191-2, 688-9] These Third Race men may be viewed as forming three groups.=20=20 1. In the first the Lords of Flame who incarnated before the separation of the sexes, i.e., in Androgyne or Hermaphrodite man. These included those of whom ancient tradition speaks of as demigods, rishis, and heroes. 2. Secondly, the group of common humanity in each of whom a spark entered, in the far distant past of over eighteen million years, when a spark was given to each from the Solar divinity, of mind, of intellect, conscious on our plane. [S D I 150fn; II 69, 249] 3. Thirdly, there were the mindless, who brought into the world much sin and suffering, and strange forms of life; but who were later on joined to the second group. The SECRET DOCTRINE is a vast storehouse of history and doctrine, and its pages contain an explanation of many a myth.=20=20 In conclusion we must remember that when a "race," a "group," or "tribes" are mentioned we are dealing with the physical forms used by the immortal EGOS of the Monads -- the Immortal Pilgrims that we all are, and which are all developing together in a seemingly chaotic combination of both cooperation and selfish isolation.=20=20 Interlaced with these by Karma we will find, and we will also have to distinguish, between the Egoic (divine progress), which is to be disentangled from the psycho-manasic level of self-conscious indiscriminate Kamic development.=20 The Atlantean Fourth Race arose while the Third (Lemurian) faded into the past, and a vast concourse of forgotten nations came upon the scene of time= , flourished and passed away.=20 This caused an increasing separation between the higher groups and the lowe= r sub-races of the delayed group; between the "sons of light," and the "progeny of darkness."=20=20 >From the sons of light was developed the nascent civilization of Atlantis; from the low forms of Lemuria, reinforced by interbreeding with the more degenerate of the Atlanteans, sprang series of races, fitly comparable to and indeed the forerunners of the savage races we now know as Australians, certain wild tribes in China and Borneo, Bushmen and Negritos, etc.. A number of tribes and remnants have already disappeared as physical forms. Some groups have been badly decimated. Convulsions of nature made an end to Lemuria; and it is stated that its sinking began at the most northerly part, proceeded to the equatorial regions, and the last portion to disappear was adjacent to Ceylon, the Lank= a of the succeeding Atlantean continent.=20=20 In these profound changes of the earth's surface the Lemuro-Atlantean stock was saved, as by a divine interposition, by a Manu, a Noah: this substitution of a Fourth Race for a Third destroyed by a deluged world, is the foundation of such myths of the Chaldeans, of Genesis, and the Hindu Vaivasvata; a salvation, similarly repeated, millions of years later, when the Fourth Race was replaced by the Fifth after similar convulsions and a deluged world. DTB =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 05:37:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92312 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2004 13:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2004 13:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2004 13:37:20 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.7] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfelG-0005gw-To; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:36:59 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE; b=Ejk8BsiNpvqFi5HEvYYeQMGAOCODniQY5GO+Z6Nu1MDfhDZNgN5cGe3a9MjvJpME; To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c4e506$9ce19350$0792b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec793dc4b733f653fb17534ee182954e9a95350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.68 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.146.7 Subject: ASTRAL WORLD X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ON THE ASTRAL BODY AND THE ASTRAL WORLD Dec 17 2004 Re: Astral Projection, etc. WARNING; THEOSOPHY WARNS AGAINST DOING THIS. ===================================== THEOSOPHY teaches: 1 The Astral Light and the Astral Body exist. There are a vast number of entities that exist in the "Astral Sphere" fulfilling various functions there. They are known variously as (1) "elementals," (nature-spirits and powers), (2) elementaries ( living entities that embody and practice selfish, evil powers also know of as "black-magic"), and (3) several levels of high and divine Spiritual Men, ( known as Nirmanakayas, Bodhisattvas, Buddhas, Sages, Magi, Rishis, etc., who practice benevolence, generosity, wisdom, compassion, and embody all the altruistic and noble aspects of "white magic."). 2 The Astral Models serve as electro-magnetic force fields (or models) for all physical forms without exception. While physical forms constantly change, the astral models retain their shape more permanently. 3 The astral form of a man can sometimes, and in part, be dissociated from the physical. 4 THEOSOPHY warns that meddling by untrained and unprepared individuals with the Astral Body may cause by repercussion, severe dislocations in the physical -- resulting in ailments, both physical and psychic, as well as mental and consciousness aberrations. (Hence THEOSOPHY recommends that no practices be indulged in that involve the astral Body or the Astral Light.) 5 Channeling, mediumship, astral projection, clairvoyance, clairaudience, second-sight, apportation, the perceiving of "ghosts," are all phenomena and faculties associated with the Astral world. THEOSOPHY explains them, and gives clues to the nature of those processes. 6 Astral faculties are potent and dangerous in the hands of the un-initiated, and are not to be used as a "pass-time," or curiosity and amusement, or for personal "experiment," "trance," "metaphysical investigation," etc., except under the most rigid and controlled circumstances by those who KNOW that field in all details, and are morally, entirely PURE. 7 Hypnotism and mesmerism are powers that relate to the Astral sphere, body and world; and as such, severe damage to the psyche (mental faculties and capacity) of both patient and professor can result. DTB ============================== ASTRAL and PHYSICAL BODIES ( Theosophy teaches ) BODY AND ASTRAL BODY The physical body, as a mass of flesh, bones, muscles, nerves, brain matter, bile, mucous, blood, and skin is an object of exclusive care for too many people, who make it their "god" because they have come to identify themselves with it, meaning it only when they say "I." Left to itself it is devoid of sense, and acts in such a case solely by reflex and automatic action. This we see in sleep, for then the body assumes attitudes and makes motions which the waking man does not permit. It is like mother earth in that it is made up of an infinitesimal number of "lives." "LITTLE LIVES" (Monads in physical evolution,) Each of these lives is a sensitive point. Not only are there microbes, bacilli, and bacteria, but these are composed of others, and those others of still more minute lives. These lives are not the cells of the body, but make up the cells, keeping ever within the limits assigned by evolution to the cell. They are forever whirling and moving together throughout the whole body, being in certain apparently void spaces as well as where flesh, membrane, bones, and blood are seen. They extend, too, beyond the actual outer limits of the body to a measurable distance. ONE OF THE MYSTERIES OF PHYSICAL LIFE IS HIDDEN AMONG THESE "LIVES." Their action, forced forward by the Life energy -- called Prana or Jiva -- will explain active existence and physical death. They are divided into two classes, one the destroyers, the other the preservers, and these two war upon each other from birth until the destroyers win. In this struggle the Life Energy itself ends the contest because it is life that kills. This may seem heterodox, but in Theosophical philosophy it is held to be the fact. For, it is said, the infant lives because the combination of healthy organs is able to absorb the life all around it in space, and is put t