From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 1 07:40:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA30537 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:32:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <003301be63e6$04f14060$287d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: Subject: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:18:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >The Donant article is biased and full of misconception and gives hardly a >true view of history. I have been told by a Pasadena official that this text >is actually to be "updated". Do you really believe the fairy tale of an >"elitist group"? It's quite upside down with the "serious internal esoteric >troubles" (Fn. 10 in: GdeP: In the Temple, PLP, p. xv). There are always at least two sides to history (which is why history is so much fun for historians). Yes, I "really believe" Alan's article. >The ES members were forced by the new leadership to break their pledges and >violate the theosophical principles for which the Point Loma tradition >stands for. The only "principles" of any consequence is universal brotherhood, which I seriously doubt was ever broken. Pasadena officials tend to smile at the phrase "Point Loma tradition" and insist that this phrase itself shows why the break was necessary. This "tradition" was created in only a few years by an elitist group of ES members. The very phrase smacks of dogmatism, which is why Conger and Long rejected it. >This crisis was foreseen by GdeP and he wanted his pupils and >coworkers to remain true to the esoteric principles. The esoteric principles had nothing at all to do with the Point Loma tradition. These principles pre-existed Point Loma by centuries. I agree that GdeP forsaw the problem, but largely because he could find no successor. Conger became Leader three years after GdeP. It is unfortunate that GdeP was not able to find/teach a qualified successor, and I think that Leaders of his stature and understanding died with him and have yet to be seen. However, Long and Knoche both have served well, IMHO, and both have the spiritual flame of truth in their writings, which is all anyone can ask. >But a strange thing happened: The old pupils and coworkers (in Germany and >the Netherlands around the half of the membership) which could not follow >the "new", false and selfish way Your choice of words here clearly shows your own personal bias, and I doubt that anything I can say will change your already made-up mind. Suffice it to say that other opinions do exist quite the reverse of yours. >This serious esoteric crisis broke out in 1946 with the claim of Conger, >three months after he took office as TS leader, to hold the same occult >status as HPB and forced the members to accept him as new Outer Head of the >ES. The crisis was purely exoteric and historical addressing a human organization. I would challenge you to find anything "esoteric" at all in an outer organization changing its structure. When he closed the ES (with James Long as the real background force) in >1951 the ES was in its 77th year of existence and it was the 53rd year after >the ES was reunited in a heroic task by Katherine Tingley with the TS. Closing the ES was a necessity at that time. I honestly think that such a move will occur with all TSs at some point in the future, unless someone with the stature of HPB or GdeP comes along to head it. At the present time the ESs exist out of a sense of tradition, but are all clearly elitist with an "I am better than you" undertone. There is simply no real need today for any such organization, other than to feed egos. I feel that this is also true for yoga, magic, and all occult organizations across the board. > Boris de Zirkoff declared in 1975 in an address to the Anniversary >Convention in NY: If there would be no ES exist, then the whole TS would be >nothing else as a lie. >Frank > But this begs the question of why such a secret organization is necessary. If the TSs are training grounds for magic and occultism, then yes an ES is necesary. If not, then I have to ask why they are necessary today. Clearly they are not. We won't settle this here. The best we can do is agree to disagree. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 1 10:42:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA14936 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:36:47 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990301163539.14757.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.95] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:35:39 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mr Frank Reitemeyer wrote----- >>The Donant article is biased and full of misconception and gives hardly a >>true view of history. Mr Jerry Schueler wrote------- >There are always at least two sides to history (which is why history >is so much fun for historians). Yes, I "really believe" Alan's article. Mr Alan Donant's article "Colonel Arthur L. Conger" is quite onesided in its presentation. This is regrettable because the article first appeared in "Theosophical History"--- a scholarly journal edited by Dr James Santucci. I would've believed a more balanced assessment should have appeared in such a scholarly publication. Regarding Colonel Conger's "role in the dismissals from the headquarters staff at Covina," Mr. Donant wrote [page 45]------- "On October 22, 1945, Colonel Conger was elected by the Cabinet as the Leader of the Theosophical Society. At this time he was confined to a wheelchair by Parkinson's disease. It was a prejudice against this illness that lay at the heart of the turmoil to come." Mr. Donant doesn't support this contention about the prejudice with one iota of evidence & testimony. Nothing. Now review these two statements by Mr Donant----- "Resignations from positions of respon- sibility of these and other members of Colonel Conger's administration were asked for after nearly eight months of their continuous, public expression of dissatisfaction." "Some of these individuals did have strong differences with Colonel Conger and his Theosophic policies. Some even attempted to become more organized in their dissatisfaction." Surprisingly, no details, no evidence & no testimony are given to document the "dissatisfaction". Why was there "dissatisfaction"? Dissatisfaction about what? It is all a mystery in Mr Donant's article. And how do the strong differences & dissatisfaction relate to the alleged prejudice against Colonel Conger's illness? Mr Donant doesn't answer this question either. Mr Donant takes pages to refute the observations of Dr Gregory Tillett, who was not a participant & eyewitness to the 1946 turmoil. Yet Mr Donant fails to quote extremely pertinent passages from an account by an actual participant in the events. Mr Donant refers to this account as "Appendix IV of the Point Loma Publications edition (1975) of C. J. Ryan's book 'H.P. Blavatsky and the Theosophical Movement'." He quotes one extract from this essay but fails to mention that the appendix that is titled "Later Point Loma History" was written by W. Emmett Small. This appendix reflects the views of Mr Small as well as those of Mr Iverson L Harris. Both Mr Small & Mr Harris were participants in the "turmoil". Both were on the Cabinet of the TS & both voted to elect Colonel Conger as Leader. And both were dismissed months later by Colonel Conger. According to Mr Small's account, the turmoil, the dissatisfaction, etc. etc had nothing to do with a prejudice against Colonel Conger's illness. Mr. Small writes----------- "The position that Colonel Conger was elected to fill, it should be emphasized, was one of purely exoteric and administrative authority. An E.S. Council at the time was directing the activities of the Esoteric Section. . . . . . . . Within three months of his election Col. Conger assumed headship of the E.S., declaring he held the same status as H.P.B. did. Within the next few months he had summarily dismissed from office all who did not immediately acknowledge him in this capacity, even though they had conscientiously asked for more time to give it careful and full consideration. Those so uncharitably and swiftly deprived of former duties and responsibilities included, among others, the Chairman (Iverson L. Harris) and the Secretary (W. Emmett Small) of the cabinet. . . . . . . . . . ." pages 363-4 The omissions indicate that Mr Donant's essay is a biased, onesided account of the turmoil surrounding Colonel Conger's TS administration. I don't take sides in this controversy but ask for a more thoughtful, balanced essay on the subject than Mr Donant's. David Green I thank several theosophical students for their observations which I've incorporated into my comments. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 1 14:57:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA12536 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:44:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <5ee1181a.36dafbe3@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:43:15 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/1/99 1:40:46 PM, Frank wrote: <<>This serious esoteric crisis broke out in 1946 with the claim of Conger, >three months after he took office as TS leader, to hold the same occult >status as HPB and forced the members to accept him as new Outer Head of the >ES. And Jerry S. responded, <> Once again, I quite agree with Jerry. In my opinion something is not "esoteric" because it is labeled that, or because someone told me it was esoteric. The real esotericism, at least as far as the T.S. should be concerned, lies with the inner unfoldment of the nature of each member, due to devotion to the Gurus who brought the movement to the world and who (at first and for a long time) represent the SELF. The Masters started the original E.S., and the followers broke it into pieces during the time of Judge/Besant and then again and again and again. The concern with each tiny piece (Point Loma, Pasadena, Adyar, Anthroposophy, Roerich, Bailey) and speaking of each piece as if it were THE ONE seems quite silly to me. Who cares exactly why the Point Loma group shook up in the 1940s and some people went their separate ways? Do the Masters need a little esoteric group to work through? Can't individuals grow spiritually through independent devotion to the Masters, through study, through work for humanity? Is there anything "esoteric" besides this? Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 1 19:21:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id TAA12095 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:09:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19990302114754.007d2c40@ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: dport@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:47:54 +1000 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: "D. Porter" Subject: Theos-World "A Skeptics Guide to the New Age" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi all, I was in the local library the other day and a bright yellow book caught my eye. It was called 'The Skeptics Guide to the New Age' by Harry Wood and Published by the Australian Skeptics Association. It's the usual debunking fare - but I think a few of the entries aren't very well reseacrhed or fair so I was thinking of writing to the author and attempting to set him straight. I was only going to deal with 2 entries for starters - Atlantis and Aromatherapy, but then I realised there was an extra section at the back devoted to biographies of great 'frauds' - the author lists Uri Geller, Sai Baba and of course we would expect Madame Blavatsky. Here are some things said: "Given to hypochondria, fits of passion, and walking in her sleep, Helena was nevertheless a gifted child" "She believed in spirits, and would hold long conversations with someone invisible, and through clairvoyance, would make dire predictions of death and misfortune for friends and visitors, unfortunately often coming to pass" "Her introduction to the supernatural started with a brief spell as an assistant to Daniel Dunglas Home, the spiritualist medium, and then in July 1851, she was shipwrecked when the steamship Eumonia sank after an explosion. She was rescued, and put ashore in Egypt where she made her way to Cairo and began her first serious study of the occult with an old Coptic magician." "With money sent to her by her father she continued her travels to Canada studying the occult with Red Indians, went on to Mexico, thence to New Orleans where her prime interest was voodoo. Later she went to India, Nepal and Tibet where she had many strange experiences, among them, witnessing the 'astral soul' of her guide separate from his body, and being rescued from the desert by a party of horsemen from a lamasery, whom she believed she had directed to her by her psychic powers." Anyway, there's more but I had to return the book before I had a chance to copy the rest down. What i want to know is - Is it worth writing to the author to set him straight on not just HPB but Atlantis, Armotherapy etc etc all the so-called new-age topics he supposedly 'debunks'. I should I just ignore it. And what about James Randi? I sent him an email once and he said I was a fool. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 1 22:21:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id VAA28662 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:46:27 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36DB5EF4.137BABA5@eden.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:45:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History References: <5ee1181a.36dafbe3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Richtay@aol.com wrote: > Do the Masters need a little esoteric group to work through? Can't > individuals grow spiritually through independent devotion to the Masters, > through study, through work for humanity? Is there anything "esoteric" > besides this? > > Rich You are right. All one needs is to look at the early history of TS. Masters being extremely practical, They have worked with and through many individuals who had not much of any sympathy with esoteric matters, but were men and women who got things done for the betterment of Humanity. Eg. Hume, Sinnett, Kingsford etc. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 1 22:24:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id VAA27581 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:35:15 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36DB5C4A.586FE6E8@eden.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:34:34 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World "A Skeptics Guide to the New Age" References: <3.0.2.32.19990302114754.007d2c40@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com "D. Porter" wrote: > It's the usual debunking fare - but I think a few of the entries aren't > very well reseacrhed or fair so I was thinking of writing to the author and > attempting to set him straight. I was only going to deal with 2 entries for > starters - Atlantis and Aromatherapy Having mentioned Aromatherapy, I cannot but describe what I was told of an actual experience in the hospital where one of ny close relatives spent several days after surgery. One of the nurses told me that there was a patient some years ago who came with a box full of various bottles and from the time the patient was brought from a major surgery till the time patient went home, not a single pain killer was administered. All pain was controlled by aromatherapy. Usually the patients are given powerful pain killers and narcotics are the usual choice. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 2 15:51:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA06064 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:27:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <001601be64f3$53c80300$fa8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:22:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Doss wrote: >Truth can stand on its own and it will. Hopefully, Internet would act as a >catalyst to throw light on the historical matters and it would be a win-win >situation. Indeed. That's why I ask question about dark historical matters in the theosophical movement. Single-eyed viewed are outmoded. And I think we all Theosophists have the right to know what has happened. The motto of the TS is: There is no religion higher than truth. It seems that some students have this forgotten. We should be grateful to the Adyar TS that they have published the original texts of Helena Blavatsky, which can be found in the Blavatsky Collected Writings. And I think the friends of the Pasadena TS should allow that the same honour will be done with GdeP (who was much engaged in launching the BCW project) and his texts - otherwise I fear the Theos. movement will slowly but surely follow blind the astral tracks of the Christian movement some 2,000 years ago. Does history repeats itself again and again, or are we Theosophists of the 2nd. century able to use our will and mind? Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 2 16:07:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA08092 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:45:49 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <002301be64f5$dd1bbbe0$fa8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:44:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Doss wrote: >You are right. All one needs is to look at the early history of TS. Masters being >extremely practical, They have worked with and through many individuals who had >not much of any sympathy with esoteric matters, but were men and women who got >things done for the betterment of Humanity. Eg. Hume, Sinnett, Kingsford etc. > >mkr True, but all three were not taught, they were no pupils, and the idea that Masters working up to a certain degree with untrained lays (because in the whole Western world the contacts to the Lodge were broken basicly since centuries) means not, that they need no trained chelas in the West. Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 2 17:30:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA19117 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:22:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:20:35 -0800 Message-ID: <001601be650b$a931a040$5e0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 In-Reply-To: <001601be64f3$53c80300$fa8306d4@g2l4g2> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Feb 3rd 1999 Dear Frank: Did I send you a copy of the book THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875 - 1950 ? It is documentary history of the movement and takes into account all the main aspects of events between those years. If I did not, then would you like me to send you a copy ? No one who writes for Theosophy receives any consideration because of any "authority." Truth does away with external authority. The only "authority" is entirely internal. Each one makes up his own mind as to what is true. If you are interested, I can send you some pages of quotations from Theosophical sources that speak to this effect. I have read many writers on theosophical matters, or those who claimed to be able to interpret the meaning of some of the more obscure statements. Some do illuminate or draw our minds to correlations and analogies, others seem to obscure thought, direct it to themselves and their particular views, and fail to provide students with adequate referencing, so that they can do their own research. I tend to be very cautious about those who refrain from giving SOURCES. They may be right or wrong, but I have to see corroboration. As to the preservation of the "Original Writings." There is no question but the issuing of COLLECTED WORKS, BLAVATSKY is most valuable. Boris de Zircov and those who assisted him did a magnificent job. TPH ought to be commended for that. The only problem with that work is its high price. The average student cannot afford the set. I would like to point out to you that historically around the 1920s all the "original writings" had gone OUT OF PRINT. It is true that some of the books had been reprinted, but most of those reprinted editions had been changed and edited by those who claimed "successorship", or "authority" to do so. In effect they were no longer "accurately true to the originals." One of the primary tasks of the United Lodge of Theosophists was to make the ORIGINALS again available, widely, and at the most reasonable price, as close to actual cost, so that students could have those to use and work on. THEOSOPHY monthly magazine began publishing in 1912 and the reprinting of HPB's articles (by then only in library editions of THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER and PATH) were again made available to students. In India, starting in 1930, THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT began doing this also (published under the auspices of the ULT in Bombay.) Both magazines continue that work today. In the 1920s the larger task of reprinting a photographic version of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, ISIS UNVEILED, THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY and the New York version Me. Judge had issued in 1893 of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE was commenced and carried out. This was necessary for the reason that the copies being printed and sold by other Theosophical bodies no longer gave students the unchanged ORIGINALS. I write this so you will be aware of the history of these books. Adyar TPH was not one of those who left the original writings untampered with. In fact today you can but a copy of PRACTICAL OCCULTISM said to be by HPB and which I found was done by a mosaic of authors, all heavily edited, and some articles were by orthodox Brahmins and professed credal methods and rites, which HPB never endorsed. I an send you if you are interested my findings on this. I wrote Adyar TPH and protested, and head nothing, nor has the book been withdrawn. Best wishes as always, Dallas. PS [ Incidentally: Were you able to send something to Reed on the German translations of Theosophical texts that might be available. I too am interested to have that information. ] -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 01:34:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id BAA15792 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:28:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36DCE48A.622C3FDD@withoutwalls.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:28:18 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World No subject was specified. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I received this letter tonight. I just thought it might be good to share it with the list. -- Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was wonderful to converse with you. It always is. I hope you know that. I believe you do. I hold you up high in my heart. Life is short. The commercial work that we do, so often of necessity: other people's necessity, (the community's necessity), communicates yet a real need, and some caprice. It provides for our livelihood. It makes life fun. We can enjoy it. It's always interesting, sometimes a little hard to see. Underneath it all is the real meaning of our lives, of all of our lives. We live and die. As artist's, we have the gift of expressing that meaning as best we can. I know that you understand, but it's still good to say. Artist's often don't say it enough. I have always known you for who YOU ARE. I feel that we are colleagues in the most interesting of classrooms. I love being here with you. Sometimes, the depths of what you say touch me so deeply that I can't find words. You good fortune at treating spiritual subjects belies your generous capacity to do so. Whether it's your own personal work or a commercial assignment, you always try to dive deep and create a poignant metaphor for experience. You succeed. I'm stumbling over my own words now, (language, as wonderful as it is [ it's really all we have, isn't it, just different forms of language - visual/verbal --- but still limited]. It's the only tool available to us. If you pause a moment in silence, you'll understand me, I'm sure. If silence has a value, it is love. If love has a value, it is truth. When we look back over our lives, I hope we will feel that at least, we were truthful with each other. I feel things when I talk to you. Things that touch me. When you spoke tonight about your commercial opportunities, and about the needed quality of optimism in commerce, I was reminded of a saying I heard a long time ago: "Work is love made visible." It is the basis of my understanding of economics. I try to live up to it. The other thing I want to say, is a little harder to articulate. I say it to myself like this: When we are young, we eventually encounter the word "love" and some meaning of it. We are taught to represent it with a simple glyph of four symbols. And we do. As we go on in our lives, we have experiences that cause the bottom of that representation to drop away and open to ever vaster and vaster regions of meaning, some pleasure, some pain. Same four glyphs. But different now. When you think of any symbol, any representation of a thing: try to remember that potential. Imbue it with your gaze, your awareness. What seems solid and defined, can, in an instant, open up to encompass bottomless depths and extensions of meaning. No end -- floating in the potential of void space -- free, no bounds. Acknowledge that potential in every symbol you create. Energize every image you see with that potential. The world transforms. The ordinary becomes extraordinary. It becomes magical: mystical. Forms become doorways to the formless. The act of seeing and of representing vision (both interior and exterior), becomes charged with that possibility. Un-ending meaning can live in the symbols you create as acknowledged potential for the viewer to recognize. It's there. You saw it. The act of seeing becomes a path, a bridge. That's where you find the Artist in you, and the Creative in everyone. There is the true community for us. The interchange between Self and Other becomes invigorating, inspirited. And whether mutually acknowledged as such or not, the potential is vivifying. It is present. Your awareness makes it so. It's now in the potential human sphere for all to share. You've brought it through.You've transformed it. Others can interpret as they see fit. That's the beauty. But the meaning, ever elusive and unconfined by description, flows. The formless appears as form, momentarily, and dissappears. Only to reappear as something else, recognized or not. A moving pattern. Flowing, it achieves it's purpose. It is among us. I believe artists accomplish their duty that way. Transformations occur through the conscious cooperation of mankind. Limits serve the Illimitable. Silence speaks best. A blank page every day. We are. Relish emptiness as form. The gate to all mystery. "I AM not absent. I AM present in the silence between heartbeats." ---------------------------------------- Without Walls:An Internet Art Space email: mark@withoutwalls.com www.withoutwalls.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 08:03:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA07823 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:49:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World No subject was specified. Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 06:47:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000101be664d$f0d41b60$8c0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 In-Reply-To: <36DCE48A.622C3FDD@withoutwalls.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 4th Dear Mark: Many thanks for sharing this. Enjoyed. Dallas =================== -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 18:22:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13817 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:15:08 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <002801be669d$01613900$f98306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:12:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >And Jerry S. responded, > > >< >organization. I would challenge you to find anything "esoteric" at > >all in an outer organization changing its structure.>> That would be a strange contradiction, as you showed yourself as a non-believer in esotericism (for example you described in a former email GdeP as a "racist", of course not giving any reason, or in another email you declared there is no esoteriscm to be found in the writing of Judge. It is not my duty to inform you about esoteric matters). I just quote a little notice from eye-witness W. Emmett Small about Judith Tyberg, the Sanskrit teacher at Point Loma (and the only personal pupil in Sankrit of Dr. de Purucker): "When the Point Loma Headquarters, on account of World War II, moved to Covina, California, some twenty-five miles inland from Los Angeles, she continued to teach there; but in 1946, * because of serious internal esoteric troubles*, she left the T.S. headquarters." -Quoted from: G. de Purucker: In the Temple, PLP 1994, p. xv. There is much esoteric to be found in outer organization, if one is open enough to see it. If this one is not open, you can tell it to him a thousand times, and he will laugh and not find it. That's why esoteric is called esoteric. Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 18:31:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13766 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:14:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <002e01be669d$0486e300$f98306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Theos-World What is HPB-/PL tradition? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:12:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Jerry wrote: >which I seriously doubt was ever broken. Pasadena officials tend >to smile at the phrase "Point Loma tradition" and insist that this >phrase itself shows why the break was necessary. This "tradition" >was created in only a few years by an elitist group of ES members. >The very phrase smacks of dogmatism, which is why Conger >and Long rejected it. At this time Conger was nearly death as was not so much karmically responsible for the bad actions. The main figure was Long. Your biased idea of the Mystery School at Point Loma is strange and needs further investigation. What is the Blavatsky/Point Loma tradition? Let me quote from the "Eclectic Theosophist" back cover (in this invaluable journal the well-informed John Cooper described once the Point Loma way as the "Middle Way" of Theosophy): "The Eclectic Theosophist is dedicated to publishing essays, studies, fiction and poetry from the Wisdom Religion that expresses the essential underlying unity of life, including philosophy, science, ethics, myth, sacred literature, and the world's religions. The "Blavatsky/Point Loma Tradition" follows a qualitiative value sourced in the ancient "Perennial Philosophy", reestablished in the West, by H.P. Blavatsky during the Theosophic Renaissance of the latter part of the last century. Our purpose is to serve as an open forum for the ablest exponents of Theosophic insight, thought and practice from both the ancient world and current time." Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 18:32:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13986 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:16:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <002d01be669d$03df0a40$f98306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Theos-World Pasadena laughs about Point Loma? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:00:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Jerry wrote: >The only "principles" of any consequence is universal brotherhood, >which I seriously doubt was ever broken. Pasadena officials tend >to smile at the phrase "Point Loma tradition" and insist that this >phrase itself shows why the break was necessary. This "tradition" >was created in only a few years by an elitist group of ES members. >The very phrase smacks of dogmatism, which is why Conger >and Long rejected it. Elsie Benjamin, long time secretary of KT and GdeP, once told here personally another story and you have been told from James Long. Elsie said in conclusion that those people which split up from Point Loma and founded in 1951 a Pasadena T.S. for their own philosophy were often of a jealous character and wanted posts and "power". She gave several examples which I could post another time. This is supported unconcious by the early statements of James Long himself in his first circulars. That's the true reason, why the Point Loma T.S. as an organization broke up, as Philip Malpas and George Cardinal LeGros witnessed. The sheep were separated. When the true theosophists were forced to loose their membership and leave headquarters, they remained true to their pledges and their teachers and opposed to follow the selfish and elitist way of the secessionists. GdeP himself told them about the upcoming crisis, which is proofed by his testimony of 1935. A key to this later T.S. history may to be found in the history of the early Christians or the school of Platon. Perhaps the esoteric crisis in Point Loma-Covina was a karmic chance and a test for the reincarnated souls of some 2,000 years ago? Does history repeats itsself? Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 18:38:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13858 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:15:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <002901be669d$020911c0$f98306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Theos-World Direct contact? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:29:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Rich wrote: >The Masters started the original E.S., and the followers broke it into pieces >during the time of Judge/Besant and then again and again and again. The >concern with each tiny piece (Point Loma, Pasadena, Adyar, Anthroposophy, >Roerich, Bailey) and speaking of each piece as if it were THE ONE seems quite >silly to me. Who cares exactly why the Point Loma group shook up in the 1940s >and some people went their separate ways? > >Do the Masters need a little esoteric group to work through? Can't >individuals grow spiritually through independent devotion to the Masters, >through study, through work for humanity? Is there anything "esoteric" >besides this? If your assumption is true, than HPB was a terrible liar. She ever dreamed of a real theosophical school in the West, also her successor W. Q. Judge. Never did they teach that the plane of the Masters is the plane that we usual people and theosophical students should deal with. There more, Master K.H. more than once wrote to Sinnett and to Besant (in the 1900 letter) not to do so, because this thought clouds do not help the Masters, they disturb them. This idea of direct contact is a terrible misconception and a violance of esoteric laws and is mainly based on selfish, kama-manasic thinking. Those false ideas and rumours were spreaded in HPB's days by the London Lodge (as opposed to the Blavatsky Lodge in London) and have survived until today in some minds to undermine to real work of HPB and her teachers. Even A.P. Sinnett, who received many letters from the Masters, declared, that the almost letters he got not directly from them, but through HPB. Sinnett, Hume and even Olcott, who was made President of the outer form, were not allowed as regular pupils. Following this false idea one may ask why we have schools and high schools for our children and driving schools for the adults, when we have all what we need in us? Why we do not close the schools too? I wonder if Rich and Jerry Schueler have spent those schools? Why do they not starting a movement to close these schools? Isnd't the existence of these schools, following the ideas of Jerry, an elitism? Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 18:40:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13947 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:16:12 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <002a01be669d$02c1b360$f98306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:34:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Well said, David. Thank you for the quotation, I was too busy to type it in. Now every reader has the possibility to compare and come to his/her own conclusions and must not follow the questionable statements of "official history" by the Aristotelian Society at Pasadena. What a luck we have no the internet and Jerry's "second side" of history has a chance to come to light, not only for the benefit of the present students, but also for the students of coming centuries. Don't fear to think for yourself! Frank -----Original Message----- From: David Green To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 6:13 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History > >Mr Frank Reitemeyer wrote----- >>>The Donant article is biased and full of misconception and gives >hardly a >>>true view of history. > > >Mr Jerry Schueler wrote------- >>There are always at least two sides to history (which is why history >>is so much fun for historians). Yes, I "really believe" Alan's article. > > > >Mr Alan Donant's article "Colonel Arthur >L. Conger" is quite onesided >in its presentation. This is regrettable >because the article first appeared in >"Theosophical History"--- a scholarly >journal edited by Dr James Santucci. I >would've believed a more balanced assessment >should have appeared in such a scholarly >publication. > >Regarding Colonel Conger's "role in the >dismissals from the headquarters staff at >Covina," Mr. Donant wrote [page 45]------- > >"On October 22, 1945, Colonel Conger was >elected by the Cabinet as the Leader of >the Theosophical Society. At this time >he was confined to a wheelchair by >Parkinson's disease. It was a prejudice >against this illness that lay at the >heart of the turmoil to come." > >Mr. Donant doesn't support this contention >about the prejudice with one iota of >evidence & testimony. Nothing. > >Now review these two statements by >Mr Donant----- > >"Resignations from positions of respon- >sibility of these and other members of >Colonel Conger's administration were >asked for after nearly eight months >of their continuous, public expression >of dissatisfaction." > >"Some of these individuals did have >strong differences with Colonel Conger >and his Theosophic policies. Some even >attempted to become more organized >in their dissatisfaction." > >Surprisingly, no details, no evidence & >no testimony are given to document the >"dissatisfaction". Why was there >"dissatisfaction"? Dissatisfaction about >what? It is all a mystery in Mr Donant's >article. > >And how do the strong differences & >dissatisfaction relate to the alleged >prejudice against Colonel Conger's >illness? Mr Donant doesn't answer >this question either. > >Mr Donant takes pages to refute the >observations of Dr Gregory Tillett, who was >not a participant & eyewitness to the >1946 turmoil. Yet Mr Donant fails to quote >extremely pertinent passages from an >account by an actual participant in >the events. > >Mr Donant refers to this account as >"Appendix IV of the Point Loma >Publications edition (1975) of C. J. >Ryan's book 'H.P. Blavatsky and the >Theosophical Movement'." He quotes >one extract from this essay but >fails to mention that the appendix >that is titled "Later Point Loma >History" was written by W. Emmett >Small. This appendix reflects the >views of Mr Small as well as those >of Mr Iverson L Harris. Both Mr >Small & Mr Harris were participants >in the "turmoil". Both were on the >Cabinet of the TS & both voted to >elect Colonel Conger as Leader. And >both were dismissed months later >by Colonel Conger. > >According to Mr Small's account, >the turmoil, the dissatisfaction, etc. etc >had nothing to do with a prejudice >against Colonel Conger's illness. > >Mr. Small writes----------- > >"The position that Colonel Conger was >elected to fill, it should be emphasized, >was one of purely exoteric and >administrative authority. An E.S. Council >at the time was directing the activities >of the Esoteric Section. . . . . . . . >Within three months of his election Col. >Conger assumed headship of the E.S., >declaring he held the same status as >H.P.B. did. Within the next few months >he had summarily dismissed from office all >who did not immediately acknowledge him >in this capacity, even though they had >conscientiously asked for more time to give >it careful and full consideration. Those so >uncharitably and swiftly deprived of former >duties and responsibilities included, among >others, the Chairman (Iverson L. Harris) and >the Secretary (W. Emmett Small) of the >cabinet. . . . . . . . . . ." pages 363-4 > >The omissions indicate that Mr Donant's >essay is a biased, onesided account of >the turmoil surrounding Colonel Conger's TS >administration. I don't take sides in >this controversy but ask for a more >thoughtful, balanced essay on the subject >than Mr Donant's. > >David Green > > >I thank several theosophical students >for their observations which I've >incorporated into my comments. > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 19:02:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA17526 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:55:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <006001be66a2$b0437aa0$f98306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:53:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Dallas, no I actually have no copy of TTM 1875-1950, but not long ago I received from a Californian friend a copy of TTM 1875-1925, which is very big. It the first only a derivation of the latter or do I need it too? Then of course you would make me happy to send me one for my archives. Of course I'll cover the costs. Dallas, what you wrote about the original sources it quiet true. And it is right that Adyar has had its bad period were alleged clairvoyant self-made, man-made ideas got a higher value than the Arhat philosophy represented by HPB. That was the main reason why Katherine Tingley and Gottfried de Purucker trained Boris in Point Loma and opened the esoteric ways to be able to start the BCW project in 1924. The Adyar T.S. of today is not the same as yesterday, although there remained some of the false "London Lodge philosophy", mainly represented by AB and CWL. Adyar has all my thanks for publishing the original Blavatsky texts, although not all compilations from other authors have the same value, as your good example showed. I have indeed, that the latest offspring in the Theos. movement, the Pasadena T.S., will one day recognize the value of publishing unaltered texts and laugh no more about the Blavatsky/Point Loma tradition, as Jerry mentioned some days ago. GdeP has the same right as HPB to be read by students unaltered. At present the Pasadena T.S. can learn something from the experience Adyar has made. Although you personally prefer another tradition that I, you have understood well the idea and the motive of my posts about questionable actions of the Pasadena T.S. Indeed, alterings, if not falsifications of original texts, which were strongly opposed by Katherine Tingley and G de Purucker which were supporters of HPB, are a matter of every true theosophists, no matter which lineage he/she personally prefers. The internet gives us students now the opportunity to ask questions about things, which seems to get wrong way. But is seems that this new democratic instrument of internet is not yet well established in our theos. circles and it seems that some officials of Theos. organizations fear it. I think that only those could fear who have a bad conscience. Compare the policies: In the last years I was sometimes critical with Adyar, but I remained friends with them and I am even friends with Lodge Presidents, who are strong supporters of CWL, whose teachings I personally oppose. OTOH, actually I am critical with some dark events concerning the founding of the Pasadena T.S. in 1951 and the many altering of G.de Purucker's books by them. The first reaction by an Pasadena official was a brand letter accusing me personally of psychic illness and the threat of discontinue cooperation with the reasoning, that I have no right to be critical to Pasadena because I am not a member of them. What do you think about that? I may express, that I am not a Adyar member too, but they allow me to ask questions. Frank >Feb 3rd 1999 > >Dear Frank: > >Did I send you a copy of the book THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT >1875 - 1950 ? > >It is documentary history of the movement and takes into account >all the main aspects of events between those years. If I did >not, then would you like me to send you a copy ? > >No one who writes for Theosophy receives any consideration >because of any "authority." Truth does away with external >authority. The only "authority" is entirely internal. Each one >makes up his own mind as to what is true. If you are interested, >I can send you some pages of quotations from Theosophical sources >that speak to this effect. > >I have read many writers on theosophical matters, or those who >claimed to be able to interpret the meaning of some of the more >obscure statements. Some do illuminate or draw our minds to >correlations and analogies, others seem to obscure thought, >direct it to themselves and their particular views, and fail to >provide students with adequate referencing, so that they can do >their own research. I tend to be very cautious about those who >refrain from giving SOURCES. They may be right or wrong, but I >have to see corroboration. > >As to the preservation of the "Original Writings." There is no >question but the issuing of COLLECTED WORKS, BLAVATSKY is most >valuable. Boris de Zircov and those who assisted him did a >magnificent job. TPH ought to be commended for that. The only >problem with that work is its high price. The average student >cannot afford the set. > >I would like to point out to you that historically around the >1920s all the "original writings" had gone OUT OF PRINT. It is >true that some of the books had been reprinted, but most of those >reprinted editions had been changed and edited by those who >claimed "successorship", or "authority" to do so. In effect they >were no longer "accurately true to the originals." One of the >primary tasks of the United Lodge of Theosophists was to make the >ORIGINALS again available, widely, and at the most reasonable >price, as close to actual cost, so that students could have those >to use and work on. > >THEOSOPHY monthly magazine began publishing in 1912 and the >reprinting of HPB's articles (by then only in library editions of >THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER and PATH) were again made available to >students. In India, starting in 1930, THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT >began doing this also (published under the auspices of the ULT in >Bombay.) Both magazines continue that work today. In the 1920s >the larger task of reprinting a photographic version of THE >SECRET DOCTRINE, ISIS UNVEILED, THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY and the >New York version Me. Judge had issued in 1893 of THE VOICE OF THE >SILENCE was commenced and carried out. This was necessary for >the reason that the copies being printed and sold by other >Theosophical bodies no longer gave students the unchanged >ORIGINALS. > >I write this so you will be aware of the history of these books. >Adyar TPH was not one of those who left the original writings >untampered with. In fact today you can but a copy of PRACTICAL >OCCULTISM said to be by HPB and which I found was done by a >mosaic of authors, all heavily edited, and some articles were by >orthodox Brahmins and professed credal methods and rites, which >HPB never endorsed. I an send you if you are interested my >findings on this. I wrote Adyar TPH and protested, and head >nothing, nor has the book been withdrawn. > >Best wishes as always, > >Dallas. > >PS >[ Incidentally: Were you able to send something to Reed on the >German translations of Theosophical texts that might be >available. I too am interested to have that information. ] > > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 20:17:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA24306 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:12:39 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36DF3D67.454DA2C7@eden.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 20:11:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Internet and Theosophy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In 1875, TS was launched to spread Theosophy so that it could affect people which in turn would lead to a better Humanity, no mortal could have imagined in their wildest dreams what technology is going to do speeding up the ability to communicate. Last couple of years has seen such a sudden expansion of the use of Internet, no one can predict what where it would be and how it will impact in the next few years. All of us has seen the impact of Internet, at least in this country. One thing it has done is to do away with the intermediaries in the transmission of information. It is human nature to control flow of information by filtering, changing, distorting due to various reasons -- some consciously and some unconsciously -- this has gone on for thousands of years. Now we have the unique situation that undistorted and unedited information can be broadcast and the the receivers can do what they want to do with it. Looking at Internet, I saw an article today titled "Cheaper, or even no-cost Internet access not far off". The article mentions of the British Freeserve (which gives free access) has signed up 1 million users and has already surpassed America Online as Britain's most popular Internet access provider. Also NetZero, had a stampede which gave away ad rigged computers with free Internet access and has signed up 400,000 customers since October. If the free access is found to be successful, one can expect it would become a throw-in like PC software or rust-proofing for a pick up truck. With the above background, how things have changed since last century. The Founders had to travel around the world by sea and land and had to establish TS centers around the world. Today from air travel we have come to instant communication. The question that come up is two fold. First: How can this technology be used to spread Theosophy wide world fast and quick. Second is the theosophical organizations going to be extinct as we know it because its necessity and usefulness as it was in 1875 is no longer there. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 22:30:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA01837 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:04:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <004001be66bc$fe23dac0$c58306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Theos-World Pasadena foreseen by GdeP? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 04:56:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Jerry wrote: >Pasadena officials tend to smile at the phrase "Point Loma tradition" and >insist that this phrase itself shows why the break was necessary. This >"tradition" was created in only a few years by an elitist group of ES >members. >The very phrase smacks of dogmatism, which is why Conger >and Long rejected it. G. de Purucker wrote: "It should be evident to every thoughtful mind that world-history is but repeating itself in the history of the Theosophical Movement sicne H.P.B.'s passing; and by "history" in this instance is meant the course of events which have characterized every spiritual and intellectual and psychical movement formerly instituted for the betterment of mankind. In these Movements, always the Teacher comes, sent as a Messenger or Envoy by the Masters of Wisdom and Compassion; the Messenger's life-work is done, success is achieved, and the Teacher passes; and then, because of the faults and weaknesses inherent in human nature, even in the best of us all, and in whatever part in the world, differences of viewpoint, and misunderstanding... rend the work in three or more parts, and each one such division thereafter is all too apt to pursue its own path in haughty isolation, forgetful of its common birth with its fellow-portions, and often treating its fellow-fragments of the original Movement or Association with contempt and suspicion and dislike, evil offspring of the stupid but always fecund Mother, Ignorance, and of the prolific but shifty-eyed Father, Fear. Ignorance and Fear, and Hatred their child!" -- G. de Purucker, Letter XVII, May 1935, Theos. Forum May 1935; Repr.: The Eclectic Theosophist Fall 1992, p. 5f. May we hope Pasadena one day will no more continue to hit his Point Loma Mother, work up its dark period of James Long (as the Adyar T.S. has done with its own dark period), re-issue the original, unaltered books of G. de Purucker and so return to the original programme. Then they have no more reason to laugh. Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 22:37:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA01775 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:03:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <003f01be66bc$fd313d60$c58306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena laughs about Point Loma? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 04:56:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Jerry wrote: >Pasadena officials tend to smile at the phrase "Point Loma tradition and >insist that this phrase itself shows why the break was necessary... Let's deal rather with facts than emotions. What has G. de Purucker foreseen? "It would already be something accomplished of genuine worth if the Theosophical Society were to become merely an organization of decent and law-abiding men and women, who love their fellow-men and the grand Philosophy of the gods given to us by the Masters, and who disseminate this Philosophy among their fellow human beings... But it is not by any means enough. Were it only that, I foresee that the T.S. would in time become a mere religio-philosophic association, a sort of excellent church doing a good work in the world, and living along in a more or loess crystallized beneficent activity, until innate seeds od decay wrought their work of disintegration in the body corporte of the T.S. ... We must not allow this to happen. The T.S. must at all cost be kept a *living* body, a body constantly growing from within from innate and inherent seeds of life and inspiration. ... Do you *realize*... and not merely understand it with the brain-mind, that even yet our connection with this mighty flow of spiritual and intellectual energy has not been lost.... We of our own T.S. hold true as steel to our own traditional Theosophical philosophy which it teaches; but perhaps just because we do so, and try to *live it* instead of merely talking about it, we are always ready to be brotherly towards others, to recognize the rights of individual opinions when sincerely held by others, and also we realize with clarity that organizational differences, while having certain ugly features, at least tend to keep the Theosophical Movement from falling into the old and fatal pit of disaster that has always been the fate of every relegious organization up to the present day - churchism, dogmatism, spiritual and intellectual crystallization, even perhaps poperies and ritualisms, in which the spirit is lost and is replaced by things of the body - matter." -- G. de Purucker, Letter No. XV, July 11, 1934. Reprinted in: The Eclectic Theosophist Fall 1992, p. 4ff. Since the split of 1946 and 195, many Theosophists, among them Iverson and Helen Harris, Elsie Benjamin, Helen Todd, Boris de Zirkoff, Geoffrey Barborka, Gordon Plummer, W. Emmett Small continued to carry on the original programme of the old New York/Point Loma T.S. and the works of HPB, Judge, KT and GdeP. The "Middle Way" of Point Loma (John Cooper) was not rubbed out, as it was hoped by James Long. Although without official headquarters, the Point Loma Lodges, Sections or groups continue up to the present their peaceful work in many countries. Jerry and others may smile and laugh, but they will never destroy the Blavatsky/Point Loma Tradition. People tend to laugh about all things they do not understand. But perhaps, when they give karma the opportunity, one day they will understand better. Historians of the future will recognize two main persons in the T.S. which were the tools to disrupt and destroy the work of HPB and the Masters, the one is Leadbeater, the other is Long. The Adyar T.S. has worked up to a large extent the Leadbeater period, has healing the wounds and returns to the original program. But the Pasadena T.S. has not worked up until present ist own dark period. Perhaps it will be done by Historians if they fear to do it for themselves. As long as they have Long in their catalogues the wound is not healed. Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 4 23:16:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA08397 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:14:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990305051303.20030.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.95] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Robert Crosbie, the Esoteric (Second)Section & the United Lodge of Theosophists Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:13:03 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I'm preparing an essay on "Robert Crosbie, the Esoteric (Second)Section & the United Lodge of Theosophists." Any theosophical student with information on this subject is asked to contact me. I'm basing much of my essay on material kindly sent to me last March by John Cooper of Australia. Also Greg Hansen has given me his insights on the Dzyan Esoteric Section, the U.L.T.'s Esoteric Group. I'll post the essay on theos-talk within the next week or two. Plans are also underway to post the essay and accompanying documents on a web site for the benefit of interested inquirers & theosophical students. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 5 01:33:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id BAA19708 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:30:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <939053b6.36df87d1@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 02:29:21 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Stop the Pasadena bashing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Just a note Frank -- I've had it up to *here* with the sectarian interests you are promoting and writing about ten times a day. I am deleting all of your email on sight. I thought I owed you the courtesy of this response, and perhaps others feel as I do. Richard Taylor -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 5 08:16:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA13802 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:03:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1975-1950 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:01:13 -0800 Message-ID: <000901be6719$03443e80$9a0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <006001be66a2$b0437aa0$f98306d4@g2l4g2> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com May 5th 1999 Dear Frank: I will be glad to send you the up-dated copy of this book. It wen compared to the 1875-1925 issue summarizes the early portion. I need your address again please so I can mail it to you. As to the various "tradition" and the way in which those who claimed "authority" after HPB's death came forward and then altered the philosophy as it was originally recorded, saying and perhaps honestly thinking that their interpretation was an improvement. I would say that all that talk and recrimination is so much wasted time. (And who among us, all students, can say that we have a "better understanding" than the MASTERS ? or HPB ? ) When one has an ORIGINAL why waste any time at all on the intermediaries ? I recognize that anyone who has come to ORIGINAL THEOSOPHY will feel some gratitude to whatever "tradition" may have brought him (or her) to that SOURCE. But what I cannot understand is a cleaving and a continued attachment to those interpretations which MAY BE ERRONEOUS. As I understand, the whole value of Theosophy is to make every man free to make up their own minds. WE can respect anyone, but the way in which we adopt and use any "teaching" has to be entirely ours. We are responsible. And, to me, one of the most serious responsibilities we all have to is to pass on THEOSOPHY unaltered to our successors, whoever they may be. Give them the opportunity that we have today: of studying the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS. Personally I would go to an original, and if there are "improvements offered, I might look at those and then independently consult and compare them with the ORIGINAL and decide if they are of use. But to follow any particular course with faith or rigidity, does seem to me to be unwise. However, each will have to make those decisions, and our work together will always be one of comparison and consultation. I think that is the greatest value of Theosophy to our generation. We have the urge to consult and to check for understanding and meaning, and if we do this together there is less likelihood of anyone of us making serious errors. If we are pursuing and seeking for the ONE TRUTH, we can only do it by this method and by using these original words from the MASTERS who are the ancient custodians of all the philosophies, and histories. If we do not think that we and They are immortals and can do this, then, we are wasting time. So to me that idea of being an immortal under training to become wise, and that I am capable of doing this myself is very important. I think that this is also for you. Like you I have been a student of the history of the development and actions of important persons who assumed the responsibility for the transmission of THEOSOPHY through the various Theosophical bodies. I think, however that the unaffiliated ULT Associates (see the ULT Declaration carefully) has one advantage and that it is he belongs to no particular tradition and yet respects them all for the good that they have done and their substantial contributions to the progress and dissemination of Theosophy. The only gratitude that the ULT Associate has then, is to the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS, to HPB, and to the MASTERS. Of course, this is as I see it. Best wishes as always, and do send me your mailing address Dal ==================================== -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 5 15:36:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA28775 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:25:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <005801be674b$fc76ba00$eb8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Stop the Pasadena bashing Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 21:59:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Wow, what a great Theosophist you are! I've just quoted the words of G. de Purucker and rejected several ill-informed and emotional attacks on the Blavatsky/Point Loma Tradition from Jerry (a Long follower). Don't you allow any meanings that may contrary to your own beliefs? More facts, please and less dogmatism and slander about GdeP and Point Loma please. Or do you follow the philosophy Benjamin Franklin once told: We invite you do have any opion that you like - as long it our opinion? What would you do if HPB or GdeP would appear today? Could you tolerate them or would you fear some of their questeions too? My reactions depends on you and your followers. Stop violating the testimony of GdeP and bashing Point Loma and you will not receive questions. Of course you are free do make easy use of your del-key. I would prefer you would present facts. Frank >Just a note Frank -- I've had it up to *here* with the sectarian interests you >are promoting and writing about ten times a day. I am deleting all of your >email on sight. I thought I owed you the courtesy of this response, and >perhaps others feel as I do. > >Richard Taylor -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 5 18:21:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13779 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:06:20 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: alpha@dircon.co.uk Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:05:33 GMT Message-Id: <199903060005.AAA29708@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: alpha@popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Dallas You write: >I tend to be very cautious about those who >refrain from giving SOURCES. They may be right or wrong, but I >have to see corroboration. > >As to the preservation of the "Original Writings." There is no >question but the issuing of COLLECTED WORKS, BLAVATSKY is most >valuable. Boris de Zircov and those who assisted him did a >magnificent job. TPH ought to be commended for that. The only >problem with that work is its high price. The average student >cannot afford the set. The high cash price isn't the only problem for the student. (BTW, as you know, it is "The Collected Writings" edited by Boris de Zirkoff, and the more accurate to the originals "Complete Works" (4 vol.only) edited by Trevor Barker.) To take one example (all sources given): "Reincarnations in Tibet"(Theosophist, vol. III, 1882, pp. 146-148), in "The Collected Writings" version (vol. IV, pp. 8-19) has over 100 alterations when proof reading it against the original article in "The Theosophist." On a quick comparison of the original with "The Theosophy Company" edition (in "Tibetan Teachings"), these alterations have not taken place. This can be a problem for some students. Most of the alterations are to the proper names, just in the very article where HPB says: "We are well aware that the name is generally written *Pugdal,* but it is erroneous to do so. "Pugdal" means nothing, and the Tibetans do not give meaningless names to their sacred buildings ... but, as in the case of *Pho-ta-la* of Lha-ssa loosely spelt "Potala" --the lamasery of Phag-dal derives its name from Phag pa (phag - eminent in holiness, Buddha-like, spiritual; and *pha-man,* father), the title of "Awalokiteswara," the Boddhisattwa who incarnates himself in the Dalai Lama of Lha-ssa. The valley of the Ganges where Buddha preached and lived, is also called "Phag-yul," the holy, spiritual land; the word *phag* coming from the one root - Pha or Pho being the corruption of Fo--(or Buddha) as the Tibetan alphabet contains no letter F." (This is from the original article, and does not contain the alterations which are made in the "The Collected Writings" version - the accents are not included.) It is appreciated some prefer the alterations for reasons of scholarship, wanting to be seen as being respectable, etc. From the point of view of "eminent in holiness, Buddha-like, spiritual ...the holy, spiritual land," the 100 odd alterations made in this particular article are very *physical.* Some of us prefer to read the article as HPB (with her *spiritual* insight) wrote it. T.J. Cobden-Sanderson in a letter addressed to the Editor of "The Times" October 26, 1911 (also published by the Doves Press) entitled "Shakespearian Punctuation" writes of his observations when he undertook to reprint Shakespeare's Sonnets (1609 edition), and had decided to revise what had superficially seemed to him to be its arbitary and haphazard punctuation in the original: "but as I proceeded I found two other & more important things, first, that slowly, like the coming on of night, I was changing the whole aspect of the Sonnets, and, secondly, that the original punctuation had a method in its seeming madness, though its method was not the method of to-day; that, in fact, it was based, not on logical or grammatical structure, but on emphasis and literary gesture." The letter ends with two quotations from "Shakespearian Punctuation" by Percy Simpson: "Modern punctuation is, or at any rate attempts to be logical; the earlier system was mainly rhythmical." "Modern punctuation is uniform; the old punctuation was quite the reverse." It is not difficult to see how (by analogy) the above can be applied to the writings of H.P. Blavatsky. The spellings in "Reincarnations in Tibet" could be said to be "mainly rhythmical" (by analogy), in at least one case they are not uniform, and in HPBs writings generally, it can be said that the spellings are not uniform. In the altered version they are made uniform, and attempts are made to make it logical, by the soulless dead-letter approach, which doesn't take into account the subtler (more spiritual) elements. That denies the modern reader words like Lha-ssa, because it can now only be seen as the capital of Tibet (Lhasa) a geographical location. (By analogy, like Pugdal and Phag-dal referred to above.) Are we to change her writings to keep scholars and "serious" "Buddhists," etc. happy, so that her writings become acceptable in certain so called erudite circles? So that she might be taken seriously and accepted and not seen as a charlatan by the blind? If she had cared about this kind of trivia, she would hardly have called her magazine "Lucifer" at the end of the last century. As you wrote in another mail, or words to this effect, the least we can do is to pass HPBs original writings on for future generations. We really should not, as Theosophists, compromise H.P.B. The above is written in case you are not fully aware of this kind of thing in "The Collected Writings?" Best wishes Tony -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 5 19:50:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id TAA21723 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:41:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990305193833.00d80758@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 19:38:33 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? In-Reply-To: <199903060005.AAA29708@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 12:05 AM 3/6/1999 GMT, you wrote: >As you wrote in another mail, or words to this effect, the least we can do >is to pass HPBs original writings on for future generations. > >We really should not, as Theosophists, compromise H.P.B. > >The above is written in case you are not fully aware of this kind of thing >in "The Collected Writings?" > >Best wishes >Tony Well said. It is not unusual for "scholars" to improve on such monumental works hoping to make them "better". It is like an english professor trying to improve Shakespeare. Also when one sees "Abridged" editions, one wonders the usefulness and distortions that can take place when abridgement takes place. If the original unedited works are made available the readers can read them and come to their own understanding. In the past, publishers with copyright rights had ample opportunity to edit works to meet their own "understanding" or "mis-understanding". Now that most classics are out of copyright (anything published before 1923 is outside copyright), and with help of Internet, these original classics can be made available to those interested. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 5 20:21:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA25503 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:20:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:18:59 -0800 Message-ID: <002201be6780$13972560$5e0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199903060005.AAA29708@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 5th Dear Tony: I am in full agreement with you on the subject of making "changes." Any change will alter something of the ORIGINAL. Thereafter the "ripples" so caused will widen and deepen and may "enlighten fools the way to dusty death." I then wonder if anyone would be so foolhardy as to risk the kind of Karma that follows, as those so misled in future lives, will meet this individual and sigh, and say "Why did you mislead me then ?" Why should we assume that HPB or the proof-readers etc., made gross errors either in spelling, punctuation or phoneticizing ? We give room for contention and the picky critics who claim today to have superior access to copies of treatises hitherto unavailable or unknown - and therefore a superior knowledge. And why can they not find the Senzar or even the Sanskrit translations ? [ SD I 23 ] I encounter now and then (and it drives me wild) statements like HPB wrote in "19th Century English", or "Victorian English." It means actually NOTHING. Only that the self-appointed critics give themselves an appearance of knowledge and wisdom they lack, and one of the lacks is : humility. While thy are busy rectifying what they conceive to be important "Eye-doctrine" they are wasting time in not looking for the "Heart-doctrine" that is hidden in there. In other words HPB was right when she wrote in SD I 521 (towards the bottom of the page) "...he becomes more careful to avoid errors in spelling, than to give attention to the secret meaning attached to the personifications." It is curious Karma to watch students who are well qualified and anxious to learn theosophy getting side-tracked in this cul-de-sac of literalism. It is so easy to adopt and fear the power of the peers in Academia. Well let them play, and in the long run who will profit the most ? The VOICE OF THE SILENCE (p. 28) also speaks of "the haughty fool," perched in isolation on a tower on which he has climbed, "unperceived by any but himself." Actually he may make a lot of advertising in the hope of being "recognized" and his "scholarship" attract the respect he so much desires. But does this help mankind on the whole or does it only please himself ? WE all share in some of these feelings and perhaps we need to determine whether we are going to work for 'self' or for 'other selves." Thanks and best wishes, Dallas ======================= -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of alpha@dircon.co.uk Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 4:06 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Dear Dallas You write: >I tend to be very cautious about those who >refrain from giving SOURCES. They may be right or wrong, but I >have to see corroboration. > >As to the preservation of the "Original Writings." There is no >question but the issuing of COLLECTED WORKS, BLAVATSKY is most >valuable. Boris de Zircov and those who assisted him did a >magnificent job. TPH ought to be commended for that. The only >problem with that work is its high price. The average student >cannot afford the set. The high cash price isn't the only problem for the student. (BTW, as you know, it is "The Collected Writings" edited by Boris de Zirkoff, and the more accurate to the originals "Complete Works" (4 vol.only) edited by Trevor Barker.) To take one example (all sources given): "Reincarnations in Tibet"(Theosophist, vol. III, 1882, pp. 146-148), in "The Collected Writings" version (vol. IV, pp. 8-19) has over 100 alterations when proof reading it against the original article in "The Theosophist." On a quick comparison of the original with "The Theosophy Company" edition (in "Tibetan Teachings"), these alterations have not taken place. This can be a problem for some students. Most of the alterations are to the proper names, just in the very article where HPB says: "We are well aware that the name is generally written *Pugdal,* but it is erroneous to do so. "Pugdal" means nothing, and the Tibetans do not give meaningless names to their sacred buildings ... but, as in the case of *Pho-ta-la* of Lha-ssa loosely spelt "Potala" --the lamasery of Phag-dal derives its name from Phag pa (phag - eminent in holiness, Buddha-like, spiritual; and *pha-man,* father), the title of "Awalokiteswara," the Boddhisattwa who incarnates himself in the Dalai Lama of Lha-ssa. The valley of the Ganges where Buddha preached and lived, is also called "Phag-yul," the holy, spiritual land; the word *phag* coming from the one root - Pha or Pho being the corruption of Fo--(or Buddha) as the Tibetan alphabet contains no letter F." (This is from the original article, and does not contain the alterations which are made in the "The Collected Writings" version - the accents are not included.) It is appreciated some prefer the alterations for reasons of scholarship, wanting to be seen as being respectable, etc. From the point of view of "eminent in holiness, Buddha-like, spiritual ...the holy, spiritual land," the 100 odd alterations made in this particular article are very *physical.* Some of us prefer to read the article as HPB (with her *spiritual* insight) wrote it. T.J. Cobden-Sanderson in a letter addressed to the Editor of "The Times" October 26, 1911 (also published by the Doves Press) entitled "Shakespearian Punctuation" writes of his observations when he undertook to reprint Shakespeare's Sonnets (1609 edition), and had decided to revise what had superficially seemed to him to be its arbitary and haphazard punctuation in the original: "but as I proceeded I found two other & more important things, first, that slowly, like the coming on of night, I was changing the whole aspect of the Sonnets, and, secondly, that the original punctuation had a method in its seeming madness, though its method was not the method of to-day; that, in fact, it was based, not on logical or grammatical structure, but on emphasis and literary gesture." The letter ends with two quotations from "Shakespearian Punctuation" by Percy Simpson: "Modern punctuation is, or at any rate attempts to be logical; the earlier system was mainly rhythmical." "Modern punctuation is uniform; the old punctuation was quite the reverse." It is not difficult to see how (by analogy) the above can be applied to the writings of H.P. Blavatsky. The spellings in "Reincarnations in Tibet" could be said to be "mainly rhythmical" (by analogy), in at least one case they are not uniform, and in HPBs writings generally, it can be said that the spellings are not uniform. In the altered version they are made uniform, and attempts are made to make it logical, by the soulless dead-letter approach, which doesn't take into account the subtler (more spiritual) elements. That denies the modern reader words like Lha-ssa, because it can now only be seen as the capital of Tibet (Lhasa) a geographical location. (By analogy, like Pugdal and Phag-dal referred to above.) Are we to change her writings to keep scholars and "serious" "Buddhists," etc. happy, so that her writings become acceptable in certain so called erudite circles? So that she might be taken seriously and accepted and not seen as a charlatan by the blind? If she had cared about this kind of trivia, she would hardly have called her magazine "Lucifer" at the end of the last century. As you wrote in another mail, or words to this effect, the least we can do is to pass HPBs original writings on for future generations. We really should not, as Theosophists, compromise H.P.B. The above is written in case you are not fully aware of this kind of thing in "The Collected Writings?" Best wishes Tony -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 6 10:50:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA16812 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:38:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <36E15A0A.C7B9ECFB@azstarnet.com> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 09:38:35 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com, Daniel Caldwell Subject: Theos-World Collected Writings of HPB available at 30% discount from Borders.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dallas, please be aware that HPB's COLLECTED WRITINGS are available online at Borders.com with a 30% discount. This means that you pay on $16.80 per volume plus postage. This surely makes the volumes much more affordable at least for students in USA. Go to http://www.borders.com/ See list below. Daniel 1.1874-1878, Vol. 1 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Revised, Revised, Hardcover ~ 1970 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 2.1879-1880, Vol. 2 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1970 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 3.1881-1882, Vol. 3 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1970 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 4.1882-1883, Vol. 4 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1970 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 5.1883, Vol. 5 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1970 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 6.1883-1885, Vol. 6 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1970 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 7.1886-1887, Vol. 7 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1999 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 8.1887, Vol. 8 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1999 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 9.1888, Vol. 9 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1970 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 10.1888-1889, Vol. 10 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1999 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 11.1889, Vol. 11 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1970 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 12.1889-1890, Vol. 12 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1987 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 13.1890-1891, Vol. 13 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1983 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 14.Miscellaneous, Vol. 14 ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P. ~ Hardcover ~ 1986 Our Price: $16.80 ~ You Save: $7.20 (30%) 15.H. P. Blavatsky Collected Writings, Vol. 15: Cumulative Index ~ Ships immediately Blavatsky, Helena P./Blavatsky, H. P./Eklund, Dara ~ Hardcover ~ 1991 Our Price: $20.30 ~ You Save: $8.70 (30%) -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 6 11:20:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA19395 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:08:19 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <002a01be67f3$d4705cc0$380a9cd1@wilma> From: "Govert W. Schuller" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:07:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Is The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925 still available? A friend lend it to me once and when I saw I could get TTM 1875-1950 I thought it would be the same book, but expanded, and not, as it turned out, an abridged edition. Govert -----Original Message----- From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? >no I actually have no copy of TTM 1875-1950, but not long ago I received >from a Californian friend a copy of TTM 1875-1925, which is very big. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 6 13:41:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA31166 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:26:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Blavatsky.net = STUDY" Subject: Theos-World FW: EPITOME by W. Q. JUDGE Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:22:14 -0800 Message-ID: <001201be680f$087c13e0$2c0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com AN EPITOME OF EVOLUTION SOURCE OF THEOSOPHY The theory of nature and of life which Theosophy offers is not at first speculatively laid down and then proved by adjusting facts or conclusions to fit it. It is an explanation of existence, cosmic and individual, derived from knowledge reached by those who have acquired the power to see behind the curtain that hides the operations of nature. Such Beings are called Sages, using the term in its highest sense, also, Mahatmas and Adepts. The power to see and absolutely know such laws is surrounded by natural inherent regulations which must be complied with as conditions precedent; and it is not possible to respond to the demand of the worldly man for an immediate statement of this wisdom until those conditions are fulfilled. As this knowledge deals with laws and states of matter, and of consciousness undreamed of by the "practical" Western world, it can only be grasped, piece by piece, as the student pushes forward the demolition of his preconceived notions, that are due to inadequate or erroneous theories. A false method of reasoning has for many centuries prevailed, resulting in an almost universal habit of mind which causes men to look upon many effects as causes, and to regard that which is real as the unreal, putting meanwhile the unreal in the place of the real. FUNDAMENTAL IDEAS The following are some of the fundamental propositions of Theosophy: The SPIRIT in man is the only real and permanent part of his being; the rest of his nature being variously compounded. And since decay is incident to all composite things, everything in man but his Spirit is impermanent. The UNIVERSE BEING ONE AND NOT DIVERSE, and everything within it is connected with the whole and with every other thing. Upon the upper plane there is a perfect record continuously made. No act or thought occurs without each portion of the great whole perceiving and noting it. Hence, all being and humans are inseparably bound together by the tie of Brotherhood. THE UNITARY SOURCE OF LIFE This first fundamental proposition of Theosophy postulates that the universe is not an aggregation of diverse unities but that it is ONE WHOLE, denominated "Deity" or "Para-Brahm." It may be called the Unmanifested, containing within itself the potency of every form of manifestation, together with the laws governing those manifestations. It is taught that there is no "creation" of worlds; but their appearance is due strictly to evolution. When the time comes for the Unmanifested to manifest as an objective Universe, it emanates a Power or "The First Cause"-so called because it itself is the rootless root of that Cause, and called in the East the "Causeless Cause." Process of Manifestation The first Cause we may call Brahma, or by any name we please. The projection into TIME of the influence of universal Life (Jiva), called also the "out-breathing of Brahma," causes all the worlds and the beings upon them to gradually appear. They remain in manifestation just as long as that influence continues to proceed forth in evolution. After long aeons the outbreathing, evolutionary influence slackens, and the universe begins to go into obscuration, or pralaya, until, the "breath" being fully indrawn, no objects remain, because nothing is but Brahma the manifested Logos. This breathing-forth is known as a Manvantara, or the Manifestation of the world between two Manus (from Manu, and Antara "between"), and the completion of the inbreathing brings with it Pralaya, or the dispersal of all forms (destruction Spirit and Matter For the purpose of a Manvantara two so-called eternal principles are postulated, that is, Purusha (Spirit),and Prakriti (Matter) because both are ever present and conjoined in each manifestation. Purusha is not the unmanifested, nor is Prakriti matter as known to science; the Sages therefore declare that there is a higher spirit still, called Purushottama. The reason for this is that at the night of Brahma, or the so-called indrawing of his breath, both Purusha and Prakriti are absorbed in the Unmanifested. Universal Evolution This brings us to the doctrine of Universal Evolution. The Spirit, or Purusha, proceeds from Brahma through the various forms of matter evolved at the same time, beginning in the world of the spiritual from the highest and in the material world from the lowest form. The lowest form is one unknown as yet to modern science. Thus, therefore, the mineral, vegetable and animal forms each imprison a spark of the Divine, a portion of the indivisible Purusha. These sparks struggle to "return to the Father," or in other words, to secure self-consciousness and at last come into the highest form, on Earth, that of man, where alone self-conscious-ness is possible to them. The period, calculated in human time, during which this evolution goes on embraces millions of ages. Each spark of divinity has, therefore, millions of ages in which to accomplish its mission--that of obtaining complete self-consciousness while in the form of man. Self-Consciousness By this is not meant that the mere act of coming into human form of itself confers self-consciousness upon this divine spark. That great work may be accomplished during the Manvantara in which a Divine spark reaches the human form, or it may not; all depends upon the individual's own will and efforts. Each particular spirit thus goes through the Manvantara, or enters into manifestation for its own enrichment and for that of the Whole. Goal of Evolution Mahatmas and Rishis are thus gradually evolved during a Manvantara, and become, after its expiration, planetary spirits, who guide the evolutions of other future planets. The planetary spirits of our globe are those who in previous Manvantaras-or days of Brahma- made the efforts, and became in the course of that long period Mahatmas. Each Manvantara is for the same end and purpose, so that the Mahatmas who have now attained those heights, or those who may become such in the succeeding years of the present Manvantara, will probably be the planetary spirits of the next Manvantara for this or other planets. This system is thus seen to be based upon the identity of Spiritual Being, and, under the name of "Universal Brotherhood," Is all Theosophical teaching and work done. Spirit is Universal The Sages say that this Purusha (spirit) is the basis of all manifested objects. Without it nothing could exist or cohere. It interpenetrates everything everywhere. It is the reality of which, or upon which, those things called real by us are mere images. As Purusha reaches to and embraces all beings, they are all connected together; and in or on the plane where that Purusha is, there is a perfect consciousness of every act, thought, object, and circumstance, whether supposed to occur there, or on this plane, or any other. For below the spirit and above the intellect is a plane of consciousness in which experiences are noted, commonly called man's "spiritual nature;" this is frequently said to be as susceptible of culture as his body or his intellect. This upper plane is the real register of all sensations and experiences, although there are other registering planes. It is sometimes called the "subconscious mind." Theosophy, however, holds that the "spirit" is only "cultivated" in the sense of having a vehicle prepared for its use, into which it may descend. It is held that the real man, who is the higher self-being the spark of the Divine before alluded to-overshadows the visible being, which has the possibility of becoming united to that spark. Thus it is said that the higher Spirit is not in the man, but above him. It is always peaceful, unconcerned, blissful, and full of absolute knowledge. It continually partakes of the Divine state, being continually that state itself, "conjoined with the Gods, it feeds upon Ambrosia." The object of the student is to let the light of that spirit shine through the lower coverings. Spiritual Cultivation - the Goal of Evolution This "spiritual culture" is only attainable as the grosser interests, passions, and demands of the flesh are subordinated to the interests, aspirations and needs of the higher nature; and this is a matter of both system and established law. This spirit can only become the ruler when the firm intellectual acknowledgment or admission is first made that IT alone is. And, as stated above, it being not only the person concerned but also the whole, all selfishness must be eliminated from the lower nature before its divine state can be reached. So long as the smallest personal or selfish desire- even for spiritual attainment for our own sake--remains, so long is the desired end put off. Hence the above term "demands of the flesh" really covers also demands that are not of the flesh, and its proper rendering would be "desires of the personal nature, including those of the individual soul. " When systematically trained in accordance with the aforesaid system and law, men attain to clear insight into the immaterial, spiritual world, and their interior faculties apprehend truth as immediately and readily as physical faculties grasp the things of sense, or mental faculties those of reason. Or, in the words used by some of them, "They are able to look directly upon ideas;" and hence their testimony to such truth is as trustworthy as is that of scientists or philosophers to truth in their respective fields. In the course of this spiritual training such men acquire perception of, and control over, various forces in Nature unknown to other men, and thus are able to perform works usually called "miraculous," though really but the result of larger knowledge of natural law. [Extracts from: "An Epitome of Theosophy" by W. Q. Judge.] offered by Dallas. Mar 6th 1999 -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 6 14:11:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA02374 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:06:20 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: Theos-World Re: PRACTICAL OCCULTISM said to be by HPB Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:04:55 -0000 Message-ID: <000501be680c$9a9b0720$255d95c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001601be650b$a931a040$5e0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Dallas, You wrote: > In fact today you can but a copy of PRACTICAL > OCCULTISM said to be by HPB and which I found was done by a > mosaic of authors, all heavily edited, and some articles were by > orthodox Brahmins and professed credal methods and rites, which > HPB never endorsed. I an send you if you are interested my > findings on this. I wrote Adyar TPH and protested, and head > nothing, nor has the book been withdrawn. Are any of these articles in the Collected Writings? Would you mind sending me your findings - providing that doesn't create any 'new' work for you. Best wishes Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 6 16:56:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA15645 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:41:35 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <000801be6820$723e99e0$187d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: Subject: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #748 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:26:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >That would be a strange contradiction, as you showed yourself as a >non-believer in esotericism This is a leap of faith that has no basis in truth at all. >(for example you described in a former email >GdeP as a "racist", of course not giving any reason, I never said that he was racist. Never. What I did say is that some of his writings appear as racist to us today. That is, I think, a very big difference. Let me give you just one example--he claimed that the Negro race is young, much younger than the White race. Thus Black people are immature and just need us White people to serve as their big brother, etc. This kind of stuff may have gone over well in his day (30s and 40s) but would be considered racist today. >or in another email you >declared there is no esoteriscm to be found in the writing of Judge. Duh!!! Let me go even further, Frank. There is no esotericism is any one's writing, because when it is put into words it becomes exoteric. HPB's writings are all exoteric too. >I just quote a little notice from eye-witness W. Emmett Small about Judith >Tyberg, the Sanskrit teacher at Point Loma (and the only personal pupil in >Sankrit of Dr. de Purucker): > Small's version of history is different than Pasadena's version. I think that this says it all. Arguing over what may have happened in the past based on one side is a waste of everyone's time. >"When the Point Loma Headquarters, on account of World War II, moved to >Covina, California, some twenty-five miles inland from Los Angeles, she >continued to teach there; but in 1946, * because of serious internal >esoteric troubles*, she left the T.S. headquarters." >- -Quoted from: G. de Purucker: In the Temple, PLP 1994, p. xv. > "Serious internal (and what the hell would external esoteric mean??) esoteric troubles" can be interpreted as "personality conflicts." >There is much esoteric to be found in outer organization, if one is open >enough to see it. If this one is not open, you can tell it to him a thousand >times, and he will laugh and not find it. That's why esoteric is called >esoteric. > >Frank > This is where we will simply have to disagree. Maybe we interpret the word differently? Any human organization is exoteric. G de P wrote that the Brotherhood of Compassion was an esoteric organization, and that all anyone needed to do to join it was to have compassion for others. But it has no buildings, no Leaders, no rituals, etc. The ES is a human organization, and is purely exoteric as I understand the meaning of the word. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 6 17:01:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA16197 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:50:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <001001be6821$a891f5e0$187d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Re to Frank Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:35:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE67F7.BED892C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE67F7.BED892C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>[Frank:]"The Eclectic Theosophist is dedicated to publishing essays, = studies, fiction and poetry from the Wisdom Religion that expresses the essential underlying unity of life, including philosophy, science, ethics, myth, sacred literature, and the world's religions. The "Blavatsky/Point Loma Tradition" follows a qualitiative value sourced in the ancient = "Perennial Philosophy", reestablished in the West, by H.P. Blavatsky during the Theosophic Renaissance of the latter part of the last century. Our = purpose is to serve as an open forum for the ablest exponents of Theosophic = insight, thought and practice from both the ancient world and current time.">> By this very vague definition, all TSs would share the same "tradition." I am certain that no two of us on the net would ever agree on what the = hell the "Perennial Philosophy" was, and so far we have never agreed on just what Theosophy is either. How can we ever expect an organization to stick together through adversities when they can't even agree on such a basic definition as what Theosophy is and what it teaches? Does it have "core doctrines"? and if so, what are they? Personally I subscribed to the Eclectic Theosophist for several years, = and finally gave it up. It had too many big words and meaningless phrases-- in short, a very high fog index, and I hate to wade through that kind of stuff just to find out that what is realy being said could have been = said in a few simple words. The fact that it died shows that many others felt the same way. If we can't discuss Theosophy is pain simple language, then we will never get anywhere. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE67F7.BED892C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>[Frank:]"The Eclectic Theosophist is dedicated to = publishing=20 essays, studies,
fiction and poetry from the Wisdom Religion that = expresses=20 the essential
underlying unity of life, including philosophy, = science,=20 ethics, myth,
sacred literature, and the world's religions. The=20 "Blavatsky/Point Loma
Tradition" follows a qualitiative = value=20 sourced in the ancient "Perennial
Philosophy", = reestablished in the=20 West, by H.P. Blavatsky during the
Theosophic Renaissance of the = latter part=20 of the last century. Our purpose
is to serve as an open forum for the = ablest=20 exponents of Theosophic insight,
thought and practice from both the = ancient=20 world and current time.">>
 
By this very vague definition, all TSs would share the same=20 "tradition."
I am certain that no two of us on the net would ever agree on what = the=20 hell
the "Perennial Philosophy" was, and so far we have never = agreed=20 on
just what Theosophy is either.  How can we ever expect an=20 organization
to stick together through adversities when they can't even agree = on
such a basic definition as what Theosophy is and what it = teaches?
Does it have "core = doctrines"?=20 and if so, what are they?
 
 
Personally I subscribed to the = Eclectic=20 Theosophist for several years, and
finally gave it up. It had too = many big=20 words and meaningless phrases--
in short, a very high fog = index, and I=20 hate to wade through that kind of
stuff just to find out that = what is realy=20 being said could have been said
in a few simple words. The = fact that it=20 died shows that many others
felt the same way.  = If we can't=20 discuss Theosophy is pain simple
language, then we will = never get=20 anywhere.
 
Jerry = S.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE67F7.BED892C0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 6 17:11:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA17040 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:01:29 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <001d01be6823$3b3621e0$187d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Will We Ever Stop Theosophical Slander Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:46:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE67F9.4E1E9FA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE67F9.4E1E9FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Since the split of 1946 and 195, many Theosophists, among them Iverson = and Helen Harris, Elsie Benjamin, Helen Todd, Boris de Zirkoff, Geoffrey Barborka, Gordon Plummer, W. Emmett Small continued to carry on the = original programme of the old New York/Point Loma T.S. and the works of HPB, = Judge, KT and GdeP. >> The same could be said for Pasadena, Adyar, and any other TS. They each think that they and they alone are "carrying on the original programme." Maybe they are all run by human beings? >The "Middle Way" of Point Loma (John Cooper) was not rubbed out, as it was hoped by James Long. Although without official = headquarters, the Point Loma Lodges, Sections or groups continue up to the present = their peaceful work in many countries.>> Your baises are showing here, Frank. Pointing nasty fingers as Long will not get you anywhere at all with me. Pouting and calling names at dead people will only karmically effect yourself. >>Jerry and others may smile and laugh, but they will never destroy the Blavatsky/Point Loma Tradition. >> No one that I know of is trying to destroy anything. The destruction here is apparently in your own mind. >> Historians of the future will recognize two main persons in the T.S. which were the tools to disrupt and destroy the work of HPB and the Masters, the one is Leadbeater, the other is Long.=20 This is not only bullshit, but slander. I really wish you would clean up = your writing, Frank, and try to act like a Theosophist. >>The Adyar T.S. has worked up to a large extent the Leadbeater period, = has healing the wounds and returns to the original program. But the Pasadena T.S. has not worked up until present ist own dark period. Perhaps it = will be done by Historians if they fear to do it for themselves. As long as they have Long in their catalogues the wound is not healed. Frank>> You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and now that we all know what it is, it would be nice if you would get onto other subjects. Your subjective opinions are slanderous and do not serve well for anyone who calls themselves a Theosophist. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE67F9.4E1E9FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>Since the split of 1946 and 195, many Theosophists, among = them=20 Iverson and
Helen Harris, Elsie Benjamin, Helen Todd, Boris de = Zirkoff,=20 Geoffrey
Barborka, Gordon Plummer, W. Emmett Small continued to carry = on the=20 original
programme of the old New York/Point Loma T.S. and the works = of HPB,=20 Judge,
KT and GdeP. >>
 
The same could be said for = Pasadena,=20 Adyar, and any other TS.
They=20 each think that they and they alone are "carrying on the
original programme." Maybe they are all run by human = beings?
 
 
>The "Middle Way" of Point Loma (John Cooper) was not=20 rubbed
out, as it was hoped by James Long. Although without official=20 headquarters,
the Point Loma Lodges, Sections or groups continue up = to the=20 present their
peaceful work in many countries.>>
 
Your baises are showing here, = Frank.=20 Pointing nasty fingers as Long
will not get=20 you anywhere at all with me.  Pouting and calling = names
at dead people will only karmically effect=20 yourself.
 

>>Jerry and others may smile and laugh, but they will = never=20 destroy the
Blavatsky/Point Loma Tradition. >>
 
No one that I know of is = trying to destroy=20 anything. The destruction
here is=20 apparently in your own mind.
 
 
>> Historians of the future will recognize two
main = persons in the=20 T.S. which were the tools to disrupt and destroy the
work of HPB and = the=20 Masters, the one is Leadbeater, the other is Long.
 
This is not only bullshit, but = slander. I=20 really wish you would clean up your
writing, Frank,=20 and try to act like a Theosophist.
 
 
>>The Adyar T.S. has worked up to a large extent the = Leadbeater=20 period, has
healing the wounds and returns to the original program. = But the=20 Pasadena
T.S. has not worked up until present ist own dark period. = Perhaps it=20 will be
done by Historians if they fear to do it for themselves. As = long as=20 they
have Long in their catalogues the wound is not=20 healed.

Frank>>
 
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and now that we
all know what it is, it would be nice if you would get onto = other
subjects.  Your subjective opinions are slanderous and = do
not serve well for anyone who calls themselves a Theosophist.

Jerry=20 S.
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE67F9.4E1E9FA0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 7 00:41:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id AAA23334 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:34:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990307063303.15131.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.95] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Robert Crosbie: Does He Have A Special Status in the U.L.T.? Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 22:33:02 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In 1998, Dr. James Santucci, editor of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, in an encyclopedia article on the U.L.T., penned the following in regards to the U.L.T. founder, Mr Robert Crosbie--- "Even Crosbie himself claimed no special status, although he is naturally held in high esteem by [U.L.T.] associates." THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF CULTS, SECTS AND NEW RELIGIONS, Prometheus Press, page 504. U.L.T. associates certainly hold Mr Robert Crosbie in high regard but the U.L.T. elite have declared (both implicitly & explicitly) the unique & special status of the U.L.T. founder. A few quotes will suffice for this forum---- In 1915, Mr Robert Crosbie made a special claim about W Q Judge--- "After her death in 1891, the Esoteric Section--now School [the Second Section] -- was reorganized. Mr. Judge was looked to and accepted by all as the LINK between the School [2nd Section] and the Masters [1st Section], and between the School [2nd Section]and the Society [3rd Section]. It is clear in our minds that the last phrase of H.P.B.: 'KEEP THE LINK UNBROKEN; DO NOT LET MY LAST INCARNATION BE A FAILURE,' *referred directly to Mr. Judge.*" THEOSOPHY magazine, JUNE 1915, page 371 Some four years later, in 1919, Mr John Garrigues declared in Mr Crosbie's obituary in THEOSOPHY magazine--- "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second Section [the Esoteric School] of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge in 1896, and in 1907--just eleven years later--made that link once more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section was restored by the formation of the United Lodge of Theosophists...." THEOSOPHY magazine, Volume 7, page 289. Compare Mr Garrigues' claim with Mr Crosbie's claim about W Q Judge. The implication is that Mr Crosbie followed in Mr Judge's footsteps, that Mr Crosbie was the "successor" to Mr Judge, that Mr Crosbie somehow safeguarded the Esoteric School. Mr Garrigues' statement brings several questions to mind. How did Mr Crosbie preserve the "link" of the Esoteric School during the years 1896 through 1907? And how was that link made "once more Four Square amongst men"? How did Mr Crosbie preserve unbroken the Esoteric link from 1896 to 1904 when he was a devoted follower & vigorous defender of the claims of Mrs Katherine Tingley, whom Crosbie had repeatedly acknowledged as the true Outer Head of the Second Section? Again in 1925, Mr Garrigues and other ULT associates of the inner circle wrote--- "There is never any failure on the part of the Masters of the First Section, or their Messengers and other agents of the Second Section. . . . [H.P.B.'s] mission has not closed, nor have the chelas of the Second Section, old and new, ceased their labors, albeit they work in 'secrecy and silence' until 1975. . . ." [How does Mr Garrigues know this? Is he referring to the work of Mr Crosbie and the U.L.T.'s Esoteric School?] ". . . .Quite apart from the continuous work of the Disciples of the Second Section amongst those to whom they are sent. . . [Compare this claim with what Wane Kell writes below.] there are those signs by which the thoughtful and reverent layman. . . may recognize the unbroken continuity of even the Third Section of the Theosophical Movement." "Out of India . . . has come to the West another true student of the wisdom of the 'Secret Doctrine', B.P. Wadia. . . ." "In the United States, Mr. Robert Crosbie. . . who for many years had the benefit of direct training and instruction from both H.P.B. and Mr. Judge, established in 1909 at Los Angeles, California, the parent United Lodge of Theosophists, after witnessing the final dissolution of the work left at Mr. Judge's death [in 1896]. Mr. Crosbie was imbued with the conviction that the model set in the Preliminary Memorandum [of the Esoteric (Second) Section] by H.P.B. was the true and enduring modulus for Theosophical study and work after her heart. . . .He died in 1919, but during his entire period of active Theosophical work, he labored to restore the calumniated reputations of H.P.B. and Mr. Judge, convinced that until their unique status was recognized by Theosophists at large, no return to the Source of the Movement and no continuity of the original effort could succeed. . . ." THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, 1925, pages 698-703. Mr Garriques et al fail to mention that from 1896 to 1904 Mr Crosbie was also laboring "to restore the calumniated reputation" of Mrs Tingley. Nor do the U.L.T. writers mention that during the time period in question Mr Crosbie was equally "convinced" of Mrs Tingley's "unique status". Also note that another claim is made *without any evidence whatsoever* that Mr Crosbie "had the benefit of direct training and instruction from both H.P.B. and Mr. Judge." In recent years, Wane Kell, U.L.T. biographer/apologist for Mr Crosbie has written: "Considering the CLOSE relationship that existed between Mr. Crosbie and Mr. Judge, and the SPECIAL position that Mr. Crosbie occupies in the Theosophical Movement of modern times, one wonders whether Mr. Crosbie might not be considered a 'shepherd' who was following his straying 'flock" [i.e., Mrs Tingley's Point Loma TS and its members???]. And when that 'flock' dispersed [i.e., when Crosbie was expelled by Mrs Tingley???], the 'shepherd' went in search of a new one [the parent United Lodge of Theosophists which Crosbie founded???]." Is this not an excellent example of revisionistic history? Compare Mr Kell's description of Crosbie as a "shepherd" with Mr Garriques' 1919 assertion. I venture to suggest that the U.L.T. has claimed a "special status" for Mr Robert Crosbie. I've other quotations in support of this thesis from THEOSOPHY magazine that will be incorporated into my final essay on Robert Crosbie and the U.L.T.'s Esoteric School. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 7 15:42:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA20209 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 15:30:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <000701be68e1$a78082a0$d70c9cd1@wilma> From: "Govert W. Schuller" To: "Theosophy list" Subject: Theos-World The Millenium Project Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 15:29:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 7, 1999, Dear friends, With great pleasure and anticipation I like to present to you an outline of, or thesis about, the last thousand years of western history. This is the fruit of many years of reading, pondering and occasional lectures. It's only the beginning of a systematic research project, in which you can join as you like. You are most welcome to give your feedback, ask questions and add material. As an educational tool I would specifically like to hear from parents about how this presentation can help you to make history a fun subject for your children, and give them a sense of the spiritual dimension of history. The presentation consists of the following URL's: Centennial Efforts and Counter-Efforts of the Millenium (An esoteric interpretation of the last millenium of western history) http://pagers.prodigy.net/schuller/millenium.htm The Theosophical Society in Western History ('A Study in Cycles' by John R. Wilkinson. Published in The Theosophist Vol. , No. June 30, 1930. With annotations) http://pagers.prodigy.net/schuller/millenium.htm Correlations between Spiritual Developments and Historical Events (Based on lecture notes this document presents timelines, diagrams and very short biographies in an effort to discover some historical patterns in the last 1000 years of western history.) http://pagers.prodigy.net/schuller/Wilkinson.htm The Centennial Efforts (Diagram of efforts from 1075 untill 1999) http://pagers.prodigy.net/schuller/DiagramA.htm The Counter-Efforts (Diagram of counter-points from 1075 untill 1999) http://pagers.prodigy.net/schuller/DiagramB.htm Bibliography (of the key works used so far in researching the 'Efforts.') http://pagers.prodigy.net/schuller/bibliosh.htm Yours sincerely Govert Schüller -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 7 19:11:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA05421 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:58:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19990308113757.0091bde0@ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: dport@ozemail.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 11:37:57 +1000 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: N20 Subject: Theos-World I like ISIS more than SD (but why?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com .......> Does anybody know anything about the Cipher which reads 'long Lost but now found' on page 348 vol II of ISIS UNVEILED? dArReN -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 12:29:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA15774 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:27:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World I like ISIS more than SD (but why?) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:25:59 -0800 Message-ID: <001201be6999$7f3a6a00$980e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19990308113757.0091bde0@ozemail.com.au> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 8th 1999 Dear Friend: Cipher used as part of the sub-title on ISIS II 348 appears to be given a solution by HPB on p. 397 towards the bottom where the letters used by the Royal Arch Masons are displayed along with various other ciphers. Isis II 393 repeats the line at the bottom of the page (first word, 2nd line has an error in it I think). Best wishes, Dallas =================================== -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 13:42:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA22518 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 13:17:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The Millenium Project Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:15:32 -0800 Message-ID: <001401be69a0$6ad23f00$980e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000701be68e1$a78082a0$d70c9cd1@wilma> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 8th: Dear Govert: Many thanks for your notice on the new tools available. Will sample. Dallas =============================== -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 13:58:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA22513 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 13:17:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World I like ISIS more than SD (but why?) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:15:27 -0800 Message-ID: <001301be69a0$682399c0$980e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19990308113757.0091bde0@ozemail.com.au> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Darren: You used your cipher name to sign off and it took me a while to realize it was you. I hope the information helped. Many years ago I worked that out and found it interesting going, but never had any opportunity to use it. Why do you say you like ISIS better than the SD ? I think it is because it was the introduction that HPB and the Masters launched to awaken and focus the interest in the abnormal which was being derided by materialism in general. Once that was done there was a bridge established for serious study. SD was designed to take the process a step further and show how the information given in ISIS had roots in the far more ancient records of the "perennial philosophy or Wisdom Religion." I have always thought it was a deep disservice to provide some kind of a filter between the "ORIGINAL PRESENTATION" of these texts and the modern student who desired to study them. I say "filter" because no matter how well-intentioned the changes introduced may be, they divert attention, perhaps, from what HPB and the Masters desired to say. Maybe those "errors" are left there so that they would catch the eye of the reader and either make him pay closer attention to what was being said, or serve to divert him from something that was inimical to his level of progress. I hazard this as a possibility. If one desires to make any progress into the study of occultism then the principles set out in greater detail in the SD will be needed. They are basic and will be found used in the whole scheme without any deviation. I mean Karma, Unity of All in ALL, Evolution of the imperishable Monads, Mind is Soul, and this is Mankind, the 7 principles of the universe and man, the Rounds, Globes, Races, etc... as Cycles in time, etc., etc. To me it is not a question of "like" but a question of "should I not investigate" and learn what I can ? I was soon enough struck by the barrier that separates the self-seeker from the one that learns so as to help others. Knowledge, like wisdom has no fee, and cannot be patented. If that is attempted the real value of the information or process diminishes as others who could improve on the original discovery have no (or restricted) access to it. It is the selfish person who desires to make a personal profit out of what he learns who delays real progress. So if anyone desires to make progress in either esoteric or occult matters they have to make an equal and even far more basic ethical change in their outlook. I think it is for this reason that the First Object of the T S was BROTHERHOOD. And both in ISIS and the SD this is explained as based on the UNIVERSAL ONE SPIRIT, of which we are all aspects, or "rays." Dal. ======================== -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 19:08:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA24650 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:37:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <003201be69c4$eb662900$be8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Theos-World Tolerance? Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:34:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com "By the very nature of our constitution not one of us in this life can ever comprehend the Whole. At best we can hope only to glimpse a small facet of Truth. Because the true Theosophist knows this, he is tolerant of the sincere beliefs of others, knowing that as likely as not they are but different aspects of Truth. But he is not tolerant of evil and deceit and hypocrisy; only of sincerity. - Elsie Benjamin, Bulletin No. 70 (June 1951) of Correspondence Fellows Lodge -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 19:23:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA24739 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:38:08 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <003001be69c4$ea306820$be8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:09:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Govert, TTM is since decades out of print and hard to get. Perhaps you try to find it via www.bibliofind.com. Good luck! Frank >Is The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925 still available? A friend >lend it to me once and when I saw I could get TTM 1875-1950 I >thought it would be the same book, but expanded, and not, as it >turned out, an abridged edition. > >Govert > >-----Original Message----- >From: Frank Reitemeyer >Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? > > >>no I actually have no copy of TTM 1875-1950, but not long ago I >received >>from a Californian friend a copy of TTM 1875-1925, which is very >big. > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 19:23:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA24822 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:38:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <003101be69c4$ead09fc0$be8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1975-1950 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:29:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >May 5th 1999 > >Dear Frank: > >I will be glad to send you the up-dated copy of this book. It >wen compared to the 1875-1925 issue summarizes the early portion. > >I need your address again please so I can mail it to you. Done. Looking forward to the booklet with anticipated joy. [SNIP]> Dallas, I agree with all good you wrote about unaltered sources. >Theosophical bodies. I think, however that the unaffiliated ULT >Associates (see the ULT Declaration carefully) has one advantage >and that it is he belongs to no particular tradition and yet >respects them all for the good that they have done and their >substantial contributions to the progress and dissemination of >Theosophy. The only gratitude that the ULT Associate has then, >is to the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS, to HPB, and to the MASTERS. > >Of course, this is as I see it. > >Best wishes as always, and do send me your mailing address > >Dal When you write that the ULT follows no tradition, does this mean the ULT offers/respects/studies/sells ALL lineages of the Theos. Movement? Does this include, say, the teachings/interpretations of Swedenborg, Alice Bailey, C.W. Leadbeater or Annie Besant or Soloviev? As I understand until now, the ULT accepts (directly or indirectly - I want not to play on words) "only" HPB and WQJ (and perhaps R. Crosbie) and envoys of the Masters. Please, is that true or false? Best wishes, Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 20:22:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id TAA01685 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:57:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <003f01be69d0$2190bbc0$950d9cd1@wilma> From: "Govert W. Schuller" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World The Millenium Project Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:57:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Dallas, Have to thank you also for "A Chronology of Events, personages and dates of Important to students of Theosophy." It parallels my investigations in many aspects. I'm very grateful for the references to Theosophical literature. Govert (http://pages.prodigy.net/schuller/millenium.htm) -----Original Message----- From: W. Dallas TenBroeck Subject: RE: Theos-World The Millenium Project >Many thanks for your notice on the new tools available. Will >sample. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 20:22:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id TAA01893 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:59:49 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <004601be69d0$6fc75100$950d9cd1@wilma> From: "Govert W. Schuller" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:59:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Frank, Thank you for the suggestion. Fortunately Dallas has some copies available. Govert -----Original Message----- From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: Re: Theos-World Pasadena Secret ES? >Dear Govert, >TTM is since decades out of print and hard to get. Perhaps you try to find >it via www.bibliofind.com. Good luck! -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 20:34:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA02659 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:07:35 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990309020627.10130.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.95] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Robert Crosbie, E.S. etc. Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 18:06:26 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >Dear -------, > >I appreciate your offer to assist on the topic. > >My motive is to look for the truth on this subject. As I've written >previously, I've been researching the life of W Judge & especially the >controversy of 1894-1895. My interest in the U.L.T. stems from their >defense of Judge in their two histories. In the U.L.T.'s 1925 work Mr >John Garrigues et al harshly criticize the claims of Mrs Annie Besant & >Mrs Katherine Tingley. The U.L.T. authors criticize the legitimancy of >these women's Esoteric Schools. My interest is to understand the claims >of the U.L.T. concerning Mr Robert Crosbie and the reason for the >existence of their Esoteric Group. > >I'll appreciate any information you can provide me. It's my intention >to write an essay on this subject; the work is partially done. Last >year Mr John Cooper was very kind to send me a bundle of documents on >the U.L.T.'s Dzyan Esoteric Section. > >Are you a member of the D.E.S.? Have you seen the portraits of Mrs >Blavatsky's Masters in the Esoteric Room at Los Angeles U.L.T. >headquarters? > >David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 20:44:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA02833 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:09:24 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990309020816.4968.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.95] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Robert Crosbie: Does He Have A Special Status in the U.L.T.? Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 18:08:15 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In 1998, Dr. James Santucci, editor of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, in an encyclopedia article on the U.L.T., penned the following in regards to the U.L.T. founder, Mr Robert Crosbie--- "Even Crosbie himself claimed no special status, although he is naturally held in high esteem by [U.L.T.] associates." THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF CULTS, SECTS AND NEW RELIGIONS, Prometheus Press, page 504. U.L.T. associates certainly hold Mr Robert Crosbie in high regard but the U.L.T. elite have declared (both implicitly & explicitly) the unique & special status of the U.L.T. founder. A few quotes will suffice for this forum---- In 1915, Mr Robert Crosbie made a special claim about W Q Judge--- "After her death in 1891, the Esoteric Section--now School [the Second Section] -- was reorganized. Mr. Judge was looked to and accepted by all as the LINK between the School [2nd Section] and the Masters [1st Section], and between the School [2nd Section]and the Society [3rd Section]. It is clear in our minds that the last phrase of H.P.B.: 'KEEP THE LINK UNBROKEN; DO NOT LET MY LAST INCARNATION BE A FAILURE,' *referred directly to Mr. Judge.*" THEOSOPHY magazine, JUNE 1915, page 371 Some four years later, in 1919, Mr John Garrigues declared in Mr Crosbie's obituary in THEOSOPHY magazine--- "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second Section [the Esoteric School] of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge in 1896, and in 1907--just eleven years later--made that link once more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section was restored by the formation of the United Lodge of Theosophists...." THEOSOPHY magazine, Volume 7, page 289. Compare Mr Garrigues' claim with Mr Crosbie's claim about W Q Judge. The implication is that Mr Crosbie followed in Mr Judge's footsteps, that Mr Crosbie was the "successor" to Mr Judge, that Mr Crosbie somehow safeguarded the Esoteric School. Mr Garrigues' statement brings several questions to mind. How did Mr Crosbie preserve the "link" of the Esoteric School during the years 1896 through 1907? And how was that link made "once more Four Square amongst men"? How did Mr Crosbie preserve unbroken the Esoteric link from 1896 to 1904 when he was a devoted follower & vigorous defender of the claims of Mrs Katherine Tingley, whom Crosbie had repeatedly acknowledged as the true Outer Head of the Second Section? Again in 1925, Mr Garrigues and other ULT associates of the inner circle wrote--- "There is never any failure on the part of the Masters of the First Section, or their Messengers and other agents of the Second Section. . . . [H.P.B.'s] mission has not closed, nor have the chelas of the Second Section, old and new, ceased their labors, albeit they work in 'secrecy and silence' until 1975. . . ." [How does Mr Garrigues know this? Is he referring to the work of Mr Crosbie and the U.L.T.'s Esoteric School?] ". . . .Quite apart from the continuous work of the Disciples of the Second Section amongst those to whom they are sent. . . [Compare this claim with what Wane Kell writes below.] there are those signs by which the thoughtful and reverent layman. . . may recognize the unbroken continuity of even the Third Section of the Theosophical Movement." "Out of India . . . has come to the West another true student of the wisdom of the 'Secret Doctrine', B.P. Wadia. . . ." "In the United States, Mr. Robert Crosbie. . . who for many years had the benefit of direct training and instruction from both H.P.B. and Mr. Judge, established in 1909 at Los Angeles, California, the parent United Lodge of Theosophists, after witnessing the final dissolution of the work left at Mr. Judge's death [in 1896]. Mr. Crosbie was imbued with the conviction that the model set in the Preliminary Memorandum [of the Esoteric (Second) Section] by H.P.B. was the true and enduring modulus for Theosophical study and work after her heart. . . .He died in 1919, but during his entire period of active Theosophical work, he labored to restore the calumniated reputations of H.P.B. and Mr. Judge, convinced that until their unique status was recognized by Theosophists at large, no return to the Source of the Movement and no continuity of the original effort could succeed. . . ." THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, 1925, pages 698-703. Mr Garriques et al fail to mention that from 1896 to 1904 Mr Crosbie was also laboring "to restore the calumniated reputation" of Mrs Tingley. Nor do the U.L.T. writers mention that during the time period in question Mr Crosbie was equally "convinced" of Mrs Tingley's "unique status". Also note that another claim is made *without any evidence whatsoever* that Mr Crosbie "had the benefit of direct training and instruction from both H.P.B. and Mr. Judge." In recent years, Wane Kell, U.L.T. biographer/apologist for Mr Crosbie has written: "Considering the CLOSE relationship that existed between Mr. Crosbie and Mr. Judge, and the SPECIAL position that Mr. Crosbie occupies in the Theosophical Movement of modern times, one wonders whether Mr. Crosbie might not be considered a 'shepherd' who was following his straying 'flock" [i.e., Mrs Tingley's Point Loma TS and its members???]. And when that 'flock' dispersed [i.e., when Crosbie was expelled by Mrs Tingley???], the 'shepherd' went in search of a new one [the parent United Lodge of Theosophists which Crosbie founded???]." Is this not an excellent example of revisionistic history? Compare Mr Kell's description of Crosbie as a "shepherd" with Mr Garriques' 1919 assertion. I venture to suggest that the U.L.T. has claimed a "special status" for Mr Robert Crosbie. I've other quotations in support of this thesis from THEOSOPHY magazine that will be incorporated into my final essay on Robert Crosbie and the U.L.T.'s Esoteric School. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 8 20:45:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA05982 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:41:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990309024014.11260.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.95] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 18:40:13 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mr Dallas TenBroeck--- I've been informed that you're a longtime associate of the United Lodge of Theosophists & have full access to the U.L.T.'s archives in Los Angeles. Do you have personal knowledge of the ULT's Dzyan Esoteric Section? More to the point, are you a member of the U.L.T.'s Dzyan Esoteric Section? Have you seen the portraits of Mrs Blavatsky's Masters in the Esoteric Room at Los Angeles U.L.T. headquarters? By whose authority did the D.E.S. Secretary reissue Mrs Blavatsky's three Esoteric Instructions to certain U L T associates under a pledge of secrecy? One well known U L T associate has personally emailed me that he knows about the existence of the Dzyan Esoteric Section. Also why do U.L.T. authors in THEOSOPHY magazine harshly criticize the esoteric claims & schools of other Theosophical groups? Another U L T associate has informed me that you personally believe "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second Section of the theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge in 1896, and in 1907. . . made that link once more Four Square amongst men." I'm told that you've quoted this statement & have done a commentary on it. Where did you write about this subject? Can I obtain a copy? If this is true, what is your understanding of the 2nd Section & how did Mr Crosbie preserve this link from 1896 to 1907? What happened in 1907? Do you agree with Wane Kell, a ULT historian, that Mr Crosbie was a "shepherd"? Do you believe that Robert Crosbie carried on the work of the Esoteric Section as W Q Judge had previously done up to his death in 1896? Asking honest & direct questions, I look forward to your replies. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 00:14:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id AAA22835 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:03:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990309000242.01680f84@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 00:02:42 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP In-Reply-To: <19990309024014.11260.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 06:40 PM 3/8/1999 PST, Green wrote: > >I've been informed that you're a longtime associate of the United Lodge >of Theosophists & have full access to the U.L.T.'s archives in Los >Angeles. If the archives are in Los Angeles, I am sure any qualified serious researcher would be permitted to have access to it. I wonder if anyone has made any attempt to contact ULT for the access? mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 00:29:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id AAA23580 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:11:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990309001053.0168baa0@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 00:10:53 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World Re: ULT etc. In-Reply-To: <19990309024014.11260.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Mr. Green: I have been reading with interest your postings here. Could you tell us something about yourself? Where do you live and what do you do for livelyhood? Are you a student, a professor doing a research project? Are you a member of any of the TS groups? What is your planned objective in the research -- for a graduate level course, Doctorate, writing a book etc. Have you done any research in the past and have they been published? I am generally interested in the background of others on the maillist. If you do not want to disclose any of the above info, it is ok with me. However, I am sure many on the list would enjoy getting some idea on your background? mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 00:38:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA22434 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 23:59:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990308235853.01680090@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 23:58:53 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts In-Reply-To: <19990309020816.4968.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I have followed with interest the traffic on the issue of esoteric lineage etc etc. When one reads historical material relating to early days of TS, one finds that the Adepts corresponded/sent msgs to many people and even were met by some. There was also various reports of sightings especially in India. Consider the situation in 1999. The last known letter from one of the Adepts was in 1900, almost 100 years ago. We have not heard from any of them till now. Nor has anyone come out and stated with corroboration of being in communication with any of them or having seen or heard from any of them. Even when Geoffrey Hodson mentions about his communication with Adepts, the names he refers to, not a single one of them being the Adepts who were known to be active at the founding of TS. All this makes one wonder if the real work of the TS is over. Is TS on autopilot with the purely mechanical job publishing the works written in early days, the copyrights to all of them having expired is now in public domain. Any ideas? mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 01:14:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id AAA26666 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:56:12 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <92506f98.36e4c5a5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:54:29 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/9/99 6:38:03 AM, you wrote: <> A few people claim to have had very limited experiences. Perhaps unverified, but at least worth considering. B.P. Wadia, a major figure in ULT, is supposed to have made contact with a Mahatma once or twice. Not much compared to WQJ or HPB, perhaps, but better than me! Purucker and a few others are also supposed to have been in contact. But over all, I think MKR is right. Our movement has been in the wane for a full century now. The best writing have long been written, the best work as far as getting the public eye was done by HPB last century. I do indeed think in many ways we are on autopilot. It's all very well and good to say "Oh, no, not really. The movement has simply gone underground -- esoteric, as it were -- but alive and strong as ever." The arrogance of such a statement, which I hear from time to time, is incredible. As if, none of us having heard from Masters, They aren't talking to *anyone.* Why, for all we know, DOZENS of Adepts have come west with the Hindu-Buddhist-Taoist revivals. But few Theosophists bother to check this out. We are too good for such "New Age nonsense." Well, I think MKR is right. I think we've played the game and lost. We have lost credibility and we have lost momentum and inner vitality. It's at a low ebb, in my estimation. For my part, I wonder why we don't up and become REAL "esoteric Buddhists." Any good reasons why we shouldn't? Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 04:29:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id EAA05202 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:15:07 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:13:30 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World The Millenium Project Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/7/99 4:42:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, schuller@prodigy.net writes: << http://pagers.prodigy.net/schuller/bibliosh.htm >> Thanks for the try. However none of the URL's worked for me. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 04:44:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id EAA07639 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:42:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <26a64984.36e4fad1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:41:21 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/9/99 1:38:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, ramadoss@eden.com writes: << All this makes one wonder if the real work of the TS is over. Is TS on autopilot with the purely mechanical job publishing the works written in early days, the copyrights to all of them having expired is now in public domain. Any ideas? >> Not over, Just evolving. Follow the bouncing ball. Ah, that's the trick. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 04:54:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id EAA07468 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:38:05 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <2abd9591.36e4f9c3@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:36:51 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: ULT etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/9/99 1:28:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, ramadoss@eden.com writes: << However, I am sure many on the list would enjoy getting some idea on your background? >> Doss, In my experience, backgrounds, like futuregrounds are usually very misleading. They are easily manipulated by the giver and often poorly used by the receiver. PRESENTGROUND, that's what we have to work with. That's where we are asked to use whatever level of Budhi that we have developed. Moving outside of the present often throws us into further use of our intellectual rationalization equipment instead of staying focused in our all powerful intuitive state. We are awash with a mass of detail in this electronic media blitz. Only a proper functioning Intuition will help us navigate to find meaning or truth. Let us accept Mr. Green for what he currently says. All darkness or light will show up soon enough. Looking elsewhere than the present often say's more about us than someone else. Louis. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 05:29:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id FAA13994 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:19:18 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 06:17:44 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/9/99 2:13:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Richtay@aol.com writes: << Our movement has been in the wane for a full century now. The best writing have long been written, the best work as far as getting the public eye was done by HPB last century. I do indeed think in many ways we are on autopilot. >> For me this notion runs counter to the Theosophical principle of continual evolution. What I see, whether we are TSA'ers, ULT'ers, Baileyites , etc., is the tendency to perceive the power of our discoveries as complete and unsurpassed. We then lock in to the exploration of our newfound joy, often to the exclusion of a proper openness for new or incoming experiences. The difficulty of being so sure that we have finally found the only or right or best source, is that, we stay so focused on it, that we do not look up or around and often miss the Master who is passing us by at the moment. My challenge has always been to stay poised so I could recognize a Mahatma when he did show up. After all a "Great Soul" cannot be confined to a specific time or place or message. A "Great Soul" must also be a child of cosmic momentum, as are we all. Organizational theosophy's are changing, as well they should. Theosophical Consciousness, and the vista's it leads to, remains ever the same. Infinity itself. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 07:30:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA22408 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 07:28:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1975-1950 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 06:26:45 -0800 Message-ID: <000301be6a38$dc1921e0$a80e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 9th 1999 Dallas offers: In my experience I note that the ULT is always conducted as a forum for the discussion of the original message of Theosophy. It regards H. P. Blavatsky and Wm. Q. Judge as those whose writings embody the original message from the Masters of Wisdom that all human beings can profit from, as they were "agents" of those Masters of Wisdom. The publications that are used for study, are chiefly, reprints of the books and articles in which that "original message" was published. The ULT is an association of students. It has as its sole "document" the DECLARATION. Its purpose is educational and is expressed simply: "To spread broadcast the teachings of Theosophy as recorded in the writings of H.P.Blavatsky and William Q. Judge." It regards this aim as the sole bond between its Associates, and it aims to disseminate this idea among Theosophists of various "traditions" in furtherance of unity. This would be expressed in practice as 'similarity of aim, purpose and teaching.' I have also noticed that in the conduct of its work of promulgation, and in line with this DECLARATION no individual associate can "speak" for the ULT which has no constitution, by-laws nor officers. So, what I write here has to be taken as my opinion of what is the work and purpose of the ULT. It regards as Theosophists all who are engaged in the true service of Humanity, and it holds that "the true Theosophist belongs to no cult or sect yet belongs to each and all." To further conduct its work of promulgation of the "original message of Theosophy" it offers lectures, study-classes, and publications. All these embody its principles and its aim stated above. It respects all statements that are strictly "in-line" with the "fundamental Principles of the Philosophy of Philosophy. Essentially it deals with Principles and Ideas and not with persons or their opinions if they diverge from the "original message." As a body "it is loyal to the great Founders of the Theosophical Movement, but does not concern itself with dissentions or differences of individual opinion." These ideas, culled from the ULT Declaration, have to be applied to your questions and if the various "traditions" that have grown up in the "Theosophical world" comply with accuracy to the "original teachings" they are considered. If they do not, they are, as expressed in the Declaration, "side issues." Associates are always free to conduct whatever line of study they choose. The meetings of the Lodge are forums where those can be discussed and compared with the "original teachings." I hope that his answers your questions and that this expression is to be understood as entirely my own opinion and statement of what I perceive to be the aim and purpose of theosophical work as conducted under the ULT Declaration. Best wishes as always, Dallas -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 07:45:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA22866 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 07:34:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:32:59 -0000 Message-ID: <000301be6a31$58e818a0$b95795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Louise and Doss, Louise wrote: > The difficulty of being so sure that we have finally > found the only or right or best source, is that, > we stay so focused on it, that we do not look up or > around and often miss the Master who is passing > us by at the moment. > My challenge has always been to stay poised so I could recognize a Mahatma > when he did show up. After all a "Great Soul" cannot be confined > to a specific time or place or message. Indeed, the work of HPB and the Masters shouldn't be limited to the last century. The last one hundred years is still but a moment in time in the history of humanity. And it is a moment in time in which the Mahatmas have 'shown up', to use Louise's phrase. Their work is still with us, in the 'here and now', for us to make use of - if we so choose. But how many of us genuinely do "recognise" what we have been given? Why stay poised waiting for the Master to come, when 'He' has already been and left us our work to do? As you probably know, HPB and the Masters never said the teachings they gave out where the last word on the subject. On the contrary they said it was all that could be given out to the world at the current time. As a race we are still in that "current time". Perhaps it is only by making the most of what has already been given that 'we' will be entitled to receive more. Best wishes Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Teos9@aol.com > Sent: 09 March 1999 11:18 > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts > > > In a message dated 3/9/99 2:13:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Richtay@aol.com > writes: > > << Our movement has been in the wane for a > full century now. The best writing have long been written, the > best work as > far as getting the public eye was done by HPB last century. I do indeed > think > in many ways we are on autopilot. >> > > > For me this notion runs counter to the Theosophical principle of continual > evolution. What I see, whether we are TSA'ers, ULT'ers, > Baileyites , etc., is > the tendency to perceive the power of our discoveries as complete and > unsurpassed. We then lock in to the exploration of our newfound > joy, often to > the exclusion of a proper openness for new or incoming experiences. The > difficulty of being so sure that we have finally found the only > or right or > best source, is that, we stay so focused on it, that we do not look up or > around and often miss the Master who is passing us by at the moment. > > My challenge has always been to stay poised so I could recognize a Mahatma > when he did show up. After all a "Great Soul" cannot be confined > to a specific > time or place or message. A "Great Soul" must also be a child of cosmic > momentum, as are we all. > > Organizational theosophy's are changing, as well they should. Theosophical > Consciousness, and the vista's it leads to, remains ever the > same. Infinity > itself. > > Louis > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 10:57:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA20372 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:31:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <987a358f.36e54c05@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:27:49 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/9/99 8:45:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, caduceus@dial.pipex.com writes: << Why stay poised waiting for the Master to come, when 'He' has already been and left us our work to do? >> Frank, Thanks for the insight. I did not mean to imply a static "waiting" but rather, a living poise that allows a certain flexibility while DOING the work at hand. Stasis of any kind is exactly my point. It is unhealthy and runs counter to the main tenants of Theosophy. I keep thinking of an idea I heard expressed in a "New physics" work- shop I attended in the 70's. "The only constant on the physical plane, is constant change" We are not in the land of absolutes. That lies elsewhere. The best we can do is stay ready to perceive the current or emerging truth, while attending to what has gone before with vigor and integrity. Louis PS: No "e" on the end of my name please. That gender identity for me, also lies elsewhere. This time! -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 11:27:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA01463 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:26:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:24:19 -0000 Message-ID: <000501be6a51$aa21f540$b95795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <19990309024014.11260.qmail@hotmail.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Asking honest & direct questions, I look forward to your replies. > > David Green David, Your post to Dallas comes across like an interrogation. On the theme of looking forward to replies. I notice that you did not offer any answer to the questions I asked of you in my posts: "Question for David Green" 24th February "Question for David Green" 25th February 24th Feb I wrote: >The more I reflected on Jerry's and Rich's reply to your latest posts the more I realised that almost all the posts you make to this group contain reports of rumour and/or second hand slurs on people's character and integrity......What is the basis of your research? And how are you intending to use it?< and again on the 25th Feb.. >So I am naturally wondering how you see the Teachings of Theosophy, its students, Madame Blavatsky, Judge & so on, and how this will inform your research. Of course, you are entitled to whatever views you hold, and yes, we do need to explore the facts (so called), and yes again, there is no religion higher than truth. It's the regular theme of aspersion and mockery based on second hand reports that weave in and out of your posts that I am querying. Are there any examples of noble qualities, accounts of honesty and integrity, validations of Theosophy, of HPB, Judge and others that you are seeking to substantiate through your research?< < If you want to use the people in this group to gain information for your research dissertation, isn't it reasonable for you to inform the group how you are going to use that information? For example, who you are doing it for - book, college course or PhD? What is your particular interest in this theme of 'intrigue and casting doubt' on theosophy and the integrity of its leaders? Given the negative theme that runs through your posts, one of the things I am wondering is - are you hoping to validate or denigrate theosophy and its leaders through your research? Regards Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 11:42:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA04477 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:37:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <00af01be6a53$67c2c4c0$190a9cd1@wilma> From: "Govert W. Schuller" To: "Theosophy list" Subject: Theos-World The Millenium Project Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:36:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com [Connections should be working now] March 9, 1999, Dear friends, With great pleasure and anticipation I like to present to you an outline of, or thesis about, the last thousand years of western history. This is the fruit of many years of reading, pondering and occasional lectures. It's only the beginning of a systematic research project, in which you can join as you like. You are most welcome to give your feedback, ask questions and add material. As an educational tool I would specifically like to hear from parents about how this presentation can help you to make history a fun subject for your children, and give them a sense of the spiritual dimension of history. The presentation consists of the following URL's: Centennial Efforts and Counter-Efforts of the Millenium (An esoteric interpretation of the last millenium of western history) http://pages.prodigy.net/schuller/millenium.htm The Theosophical Society in Western History ('A Study in Cycles' by John R. Wilkinson. Published in The Theosophist Vol. , No. June 30, 1930. With annotations) http://pages.prodigy.net/schuller/Wilkinson.htm Correlations between Spiritual Developments and Historical Events (Based on lecture notes this document presents timelines, diagrams and very short biographies in an effort to discover some historical patterns in the last 1000 years of western history.) http://pages.prodigy.net/schuller/spirithistory.htm The Centennial Efforts (Diagram of efforts from 1075 until 1999) http://pages.prodigy.net/schuller/DiagramA.htm The Counter-Efforts (Diagram of counter-points from 1075 until 1999) http://pages.prodigy.net/schuller/DiagramB.htm Bibliography (of the key works used so far in researching the 'Efforts.') http://pages.prodigy.net/schuller/bibliosh.htm Yours sincerely Govert Schüller -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 11:57:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA07914 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:50:01 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:48:38 -0000 Message-ID: <000601be6a55$0feb5d00$b95795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <987a358f.36e54c05@aol.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Louis, > PS: No "e" on the end of my name please. That gender identity for me, also > lies elsewhere. This time! Apologies about the name. But I guess if we live in the 'timeless' anything is possible! Regards Peter PS: No "Frank" in my name please. That identity also lies elsewhere! :-) -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 12:42:32 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA17766 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:27:44 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:25:24 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World The Millenium Project Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 99-03-09 12:42:07 EST, you write: << [Connections should be working now] >> Yep, they are. It's gonna take me a few days to study this stuff. Chuck -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 12:57:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA18988 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:31:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:25:24 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/9/99 1:45:06 PM, Peter wrote: <> Well said. But I am not certain that we are still in that "current time." I will certainly admit that as a race, we haven't changed very much. But the world is quite different than last century, and I have no doubt that in the past quarter century the Masters, as promised, have been exerting themselves publicly. So why haven't Theosophists as a whole re-encountered Adepts as a whole? I have no doubt true Theosophical consciousness is Infinity, as one student writes, but are most of us there yet? I get the strong feeling that, like the Masons, time has past us by. We don't even really realize our errors, let alone what positive steps we should take. I will add that if Theosophical scholar David Reigle is right, and the Stanzas of Dzyan *ARE* taken from a secret portion of the Kalachakra Tantra (and pesonally I think there are very good reasons for thinking he's right) then really we are a lost arm of the Tibetan Buddhists. Maybe we should check out the last quarter century of THAT Adeptic field of influence, to see why we've been passed over. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 15:17:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA17127 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:09:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <00be01be6a6f$d68e0ba0$cb8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Theos-World Slander?! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:17:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Do you confound me with someone? I have never emailed ten times a day, nor I am an active member of any T.S. or nay other official theos. organization. I describe myself as a theosophical student and an independent thinker. I am sorry to learn that in your opinion the Pasadena TS is so far beyond any critisism that any questions about ES matters or book printings are labelled as bashing by you. Of course you are free to delete my emails. What me makes amazing is that you allow bashing of Point Loma matters and when I ask you a question conc. your statements you become a little bit aggressive. So, when you decide to left my question to you unanswered (what is your right), I myself feel free to understand your ignorance as an answer too. Frank >Just a note Frank -- I've had it up to *here* with the sectarian interests you >are promoting and writing about ten times a day. I am deleting all of your >email on sight. I thought I owed you the courtesy of this response, and >perhaps others feel as I do. > >Richard Taylor -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 17:34:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA31555 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:24:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19990310100350.0091a960@ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: dport@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:03:50 +1000 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: N20 Subject: Re: Theos-World "A Skeptics Guide to the New Age" In-Reply-To: <36DB5C4A.586FE6E8@eden.com> References: <3.0.2.32.19990302114754.007d2c40@ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MKR, My wife has studied aromatherapy extensively and we use it almost everyday for one reason or another. Lavender, Peppermint, Ylang Ylang, Neroli, Lemon, Jasmine, Rose etc all have various uses that I can vouch for. This is why in a book such as the Skeptics Guide (herein SGTTNA) if one entry can be proven to be wrong then that must cast doubt on all entries. DGP At 09:34 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >"D. Porter" wrote: > >> It's the usual debunking fare - but I think a few of the entries aren't >> very well reseacrhed or fair so I was thinking of writing to the author and >> attempting to set him straight. I was only going to deal with 2 entries for >> starters - Atlantis and Aromatherapy > >Having mentioned Aromatherapy, I cannot but describe what I was told of an actual >experience in the hospital where one of ny close relatives spent several days >after surgery. > >One of the nurses told me that there was a patient some years ago who came with a >box full of various bottles and from the time the patient was brought from a major >surgery till the time patient went home, not a single pain killer was >administered. All pain was controlled by aromatherapy. Usually the patients are >given powerful pain killers and narcotics are the usual choice. > >mkr > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 17:42:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA32118 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:28:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:20:49 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Re: More thoughts about monads, etc Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Please forgive the duplication, but I thought this might be of interest to ALL theosophists. If not... Well, that's life.;-) If so, then I hope it helps us realize that theosophy is still a dynamic force in the world, and that the Secret Doctrine is still a modern work of science that will live through the next century. In a message dated 3/4/99 8:03:39 AM, Steve Stubbs writes: >Yes, Peter, I believe Mulaprakriti is the circle in the >point-in-circle diagram. Initially, it appears the point is the >Absolute and the circle Mulaprakriti. But it also occurs to me that >when the mineral monad (she says there is only one) forms, causing >Mulaprakriti to pass from the undifferentiated to the differentiated >state, then the same diagram at least presents itself to our >consciousness. In this case the mineral monad is a point and the >surrounding Mulaprakriti seems to be suggested by the circle. > >There are some things about all this which I am unable to fathom. For >example, are there innumerable human monads or only seven? There seem >to be indications of both. If the innumerable human monads represent >a further differentiation from the original seven, that explains the >problem, but then we have to ask whether these innumerable monads are >really monads, or whether they are "souls" (manases). > >Another, if anyone has any thoughts on this: she says that one of the >pralayas leaves the astral photographs undisturbed, while the physical >reality disappears. The maha pralayas apparently dissolve EVERYTHING. > This seems to suggest that as we proceed from minor to maha pralayas >we ascend the scale of seven kosmic principles. If Mulaprakriti is to >be understood as co-eternal and co-existent with The Absolute, then it >would appear Mulaprakriti is not dissolved out of existence, but >merely returned to an undifferentiated (non-atomic) state. If this is >so, though, how can there be motion, which we are told persists even >during pralaya? Also, if this means the monads cease to exist as >discrete entities within the field of Mulaprakriti, how can we explain >the teaching that the karma of these monads continues? One solution >of course is that some of these teachings relate to something less >than the maha-pralaya. If that is the case (and I think it is an >unsatisfactory solution since we would have to assume an error in >editing the SD to make this case) then the problem goes away. > >These are weaknesses in my thought experiment, which I was aware of >when I posted it. I fully expected it to be challenged, and rightly >so, since I have not been able to come up with one which is 100% >satisfactory. > >It should also be said that HPB seemed to believe the maha-pralaya is >a MYSTERY which we cannot, ex hypothesi, hope to penetrate. It may >be, then, that at this level we are not intended to understand. Maybe we could think of it this way? HPB said that motion never ceases, and that even the Absolute can be considered as "abstract motion." If so, and if it's motion alone that carries experiential information (in the form of holographic interference patterns, perhaps), then, no matter what pralaya we talk about, the mother/father field that gave it birth would still exists, and we can assume that the experiential information tied up in its initial motion (akashic energy) also continues to exist throughout that pralaya. Since there are a series of descending and ascending pralayas prior to the maha pralaya, and since each pralaya can be considered as "a temporary retreat from manifestation" or a "returning to the Absolute," we might also consider, then, (according to the philosopher Mac Truong) that "the absolute is relative and the relative is absolute." This conforms with HPB's statement that the idea of "eternity" is also relative... (There is no paradox, since the total time of any manvantara can be considered eternity from our point of view... Just as any self existent perfection beyond the possibility of measurement or perception on any level of our consciousness can be considered as absolute.) The Absolute, then, would be "relative" depending on our point of view, since it would always be outside any "space" we would be considering it from. While relativity would be "absolute" in the sense that all observers would always be at the immovable center of everything else--since, they are always at the common, "non local" zero-point which observes everything from within outward... Just as we observe the outer world from the zero-(laya) point within our own heads. >From a scientific point of view, awareness, then, could be considered a fundamental attribute of the zero-point... With consciousness (memory, mind) being the characteristic of the inner fields adjacent to the positive pole of the surrounding primal "mother" field... While matter (form, mass) would be the characteristic of fields adjacent to its negative pole. This illustrates how everything in the universe could have latent consciousness... Only waiting to be experienced in varying degrees--as nature slowly evolves the complex bioneurological forms necessary to act as intermediary image "transducers" between the various levels of the material fields and the consciousness fields. This biological evolution could be carried out through the medium of holographic *morphogenetic fields* (that are linked resonantly to each other through the non-local zero-point) as described by Rupert Sheldrake in his book, _A New Science of Life_ Accordingly, since the motionless zero-point center of any field can carry no information, and since all surrounding energetic vibrational patterns carrying information must eventually run down at the end of "parabrahm's life," it would appear that the final mahapralaya would have its memory wiped clean (from the point of view of its previous mahamanvantara). But, since everything always starts from zero... And between zero and one there must always be infinite divisions--who are we to say what information patterns can be retained through Brahma's after death states--let alone Parabrahm's? Maybe the old teachers were wise to say we shouldn't speculate too deeply on the nature of the absolute--which must contain both the ultimate simplicity and the infinite complexity which are beyond the understanding of finite mind. Cantor's mathematics or set theory speculates that there can be an infinite set of infinities... And, post quantum cosmological physicists speak of multidimensional universes held together by "strings" in the form of "bubbles" and "membranes"--linked by quantum fields and governed by indeterminacy, etc., etc. So, I think we should leave such mind boggling ideas about "pralayas", or what came before the first primal emanations, to confound the mathematicians and the post-quantum physicists. (As theosophists, it's good to know that both science and mathematics might eventually verify the existence of these sub- quantum fields and thus confirm all theosophical ideas.) But, in any event, I don't think it will be too long before HPB will be totally vindicated--especially since science is now up against a brick wall trying to explain conscious experience by empirical methods. It won't be long before they give up and accept some form of holographic field theory that is now beginning to come into the mainstream. All such theories (including my ABC theory) have been presaged in the SD--as was all the new post classical scientific theories that have developed since Einstein first intuited E=mc^2 from the SD. < http://users.aol.com/unIwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html > But, as theosophists, we certainly can speculate on the nature of manifestation between pralayas. The first step is to understand how the energy carrying all the information of previous manvantaric experience, absorbed during the pralaya, emanates out of the relative Absolute at the beginning of each new manvantara. One way to visualize this, is to imagine a 3-dimensional sphere containing 7 layers, "shells," or inner spheres of descending frequency orders of energy--ranging from the almost infinitely fast spiritual vibrations (consciousness) at the positive pole to the slowest material vibrations (matter) at the negative pole... With each such "field" forming a 3-cycle endless triple field loop spinning around a "ZERO-POINT" (which is everywhere). Thus, this Zero-point (or "laya-point"), having complete stillness or non-motion in itself, would represent pure *inertia* or "tamas". The initially pure fields of eternal harmonious spin-motion around it would represent "sattva". And, the intelligent "electrical" energy carried by these endlessly spinning fields would be one of the fundamental natures of FOHAT--representing the *active* basis of force, or "rajas". A corresponding analogy can be seen in the spherical magnetic lines of force endlessly circulating (in and out of its two opposite poles) through and around the Earth. This pattern could also be pictured as circulating in and through any bar magnet and represents the perfect balance of attractive and repulsive forces related to any similar fields--including the analogous fields constituting each of the seven fold natures of man, those of the "Builders" or Dhyan Chohans, as well as those of the entire cosmos itself. We can imagine that this "zero-point" around which these fields spin is dimensionless, motionless, takes up no space, and is everywhere. Therefore, each such hyperdimensional spherical field would appear, when expanded, as if it were spinning around its own zero-point--which, in turn, would *appear* to be separated from other zero-points within an apparently measurable distance in space. (Could that be related to the "illusion" of Maya, or separation, spoken of by the Vedantans?) Not only is each such commonly derived 3-dimensional field spinning around its own zero-point (HPB calls them "laya points" since they always retain their own individual identity)--but, each polarized sub field is always part of a pair of fields that touch their "mother" or surrounding field at its outer "zero-points" (which are the center points of even larger mother fields, etc. Thus all fields are energetically linked to each other through the chain of zero points at both their center and their circumference--with one pole of every spherical field being positive and the other negative. These polarities are simply based on the direction of motion of the field lines of force as they enter and leave their spherical forms. This accounts for the characteristic of like poles repelling and unlike poles attracting. (See " chakrafield diagram" at the web site shown below.) Since there is no way to imagine this structure when completely compressed into the Absolute zero-point--as that is a non-dimensional "emptiness" having no being, (although still a "beness") and existing outside of our highest spiritual consciousness--we can pick it up, however, at the first "moment" after initial expansion or awakening. For our present manvantara, scientists (seeing only the last and material evolution) would call this, "the first "moment" of inflation (Hubble Time) after the big bang". Cosmologists would call it "the 'basin' of the time cone." Patanjali might call it the "ultimate division of time." I would say, it's the time it takes the initial pralayic spin-energy to radially move from the primal zero-point to complete the first 3 cycle spherical field of consciousness (or spiritual) energy. This might be considered as the time it would take to complete the first manifest form. Pythagorus would say "the Universe geometrizes" from that moment on. Interestingly, the 6 directions of space emanating from any initial zero-point would confirm this. The primary geometric form superscribed on its 3 center crossed polar axes, (Up-Down, N-S, E-W) and inscribed within the first emanated spherical field--would be the six-pointed "diamond" or octahedron. Thus, the "diamond heart" (the shape if the carbon and the silicon crystal) is the geometrical root of all subsequent form, and carries within it, as does the "triune sphere," every symbol of fundamental truth used by every religion and mystical teaching since the beginning of TIME. It not only contains the entire root of Euclidean and Pythagorean geometry--point, line, triangle, cube, tetrahedron, octahedron, icosahedron, dodecahedron, etc., but also the root of all later non Euclidean geometries related to 3-dimensional space, and the multi-(or hyper-)dimensional spaces within and around it. All these spherical fields within fields ("wheels within wheels" as the Ancient Brahmin Masters might say) are very difficult to imagine--as our minds are only trained to visualize in two dimensions... Therefore, as a study aid, I have made a simplified cross sectional diagram of this multidimensional spherical energy flow--along with theosophically correlative labels--which enables us to visualize the following characteristics: (See the "chakrafield diagram" at: http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.h tml ) 1) How all flows of energy in each successive hyper-field or sub-field, originates or emanates out of primal spin around (and passing through) what is essentially the same primal zero point. 2) How the "lines of force" of all spin energies, from the most subtle consciousness fields to the most gross material fields follow an endlessly repetitive path around and through each field in a manner identical to every other field. 3) How each successive field frequency order grows out of the initial mother sphere of spinning lines of energetic force--which can contain or encompass (based in its fundamental cyclic nature governed by both stillness and motion) all the holographic image interference patterns describing the entire universal evolution previously experienced by all the latent zero point individualities of every potential being. 4) How the process of evolutionary growth is self replicating ad infinitum--through the interpenetration of all fields through their zero- points--and how this energy flow might symbolically reflect itself in the structure and code of the DNA molecule. ("As above, so below") 5) How each sub-field radiating out of its mother/father field's zero-point center reflects its own zero-point center which is an exact mirror image of the primal zero-point center. 6) How the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity are maintained by the endless flow of the initially expanded, inflated or emanated lines of spinning energies ("spinergies"). We can look at it this way: (referring to the diagram) Imagine or visualize that the primal outer shell of spinning energies, containing 6 inner shells of geometrically (but not energetically) identical spinergies, represents the manifested universe in its seven aspects or principles. When the universe goes into pralaya each of these seven layers collapse into their zero-point--sacrificing all their metric spatial dimensions--but not losing any angular momentum or vectorial energy. The resulting *condition* of absolute harmony is represented solely as "abstract spin" on an infinite number of rotational axes around a stationary zero-point of no dimensional characteristic. Since the previous expanded spin-energy-created dimensional fields of vibrations were capable of being modulated with image information (in the form of holographic interference patterns), these patterns would also still remain in the "seven layers" of the "relatively absolute" zero-point spinergy after collapse into pralaya. In scientific terms related to our material sphere, this would be analogous to the invisible compressed electromagnetic energy circulating within the circumference surrounding a black hole"... Or, in theosophical cosmological terms, it could be described as "the eternal parent wrapped in her seven invisible robes..." (see: Book of Dzyan, stanza 1) Each layer (robe, or field frequency order) then, would experience it's own pralaya. And, after all successive layers have resolved themselves into harmonious wholes and gone to their individual pralayas, the entire mother/father containment field would collapse into its mahapralaya... All, occurring in the exact reverse order of the initial inflation into sequential minor manvantaras and their ultimate mahamanvantara. Remember, however, that Brahma has cycles of days, months, years and lifetimes, even as we do--and that each of these great cycles can be considered to pass through both a series of progressively longer manvantaras and pralayas and ultimate mahapralayas, etc. But, how can we know how many lifetimes Brahma has before its "Universe" goes into its maha-mahapralaya? Can there EVER be an end--or beginning--if the Universe can be considered as ETERNAL in ANY of its relatively absolute and absolutely relative states? According to this picture of how primal energy cycles work, and based on the Master's teaching that abstract motion never ceases, "emptiness must always lead to "fullness"--and vice versa. Therefore, any meditation and visualization on the formation of these "coadunate but not consubstantial" fields and their relationships to each other can proceed to any degree of complexity or be reduced to any simplicity desired. (But, I would take HPB's advice and not try to go beyond the planetary solar system level when considering pralayas or manvantaras.) The rest of such considerations about the origin and evolution of these fields and their correlations, correspondences and relationships to consciousness, mind and matter may be deduced by scientifically minded theosophists through further meditation. It may also help to refer to my preliminary notes at: http://www.t ellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ That's how I see the Secret Doctrine correlated with a new postmodern and post quantum scientific paradigm... One, that is entirely consistent with all previous expressions of classical, modern and postmodern physics. Not only does this graphical-energy concept of field generation and organization help explain the nature and evolution of monads, unity of all in all, rounds, globes, races, pralayas and manvantaras, the seven principles of man and the universe--and verifies by analogy and correspondence the principles and operation of the fundamental laws of nature--but it also shows us the interconnections and interdependence of the various "coenergetic" fields and their non-local linkages with the zero-point centers of "awareness" (and of "Will") that enables us to better understand the "psychical powers latent in man," along with our abilities to achieve alternate states of consciousness. When Science will someday acknowledge that this self-replicating, globular, coenergetic field structure is the fundamental framework of the universe, as well of the cause of its evolution, those who follow scientists as their gurus will begin to accept the teachings of HPB--and her life's work may finally be vindicated. As an attempt to include in the "synthesis of science, religion and philosophy" a valid (imaginable) alternative scientific paradigm that links ancient science with both the classical science (referred to by HPB) and the modern science that has evolved since Einstein's E-mc^2--I hope I've presented these "food for thought" ideas clearly enough so as not to confuse too many beginning or intermediate students of the Secret Doctrine. I would be interested in any comments or suggestions, and all questions would be welcome. Best wishes, Leon leonmaurer@aol.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 19:02:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA07058 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:58:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990309185711.006e4a50@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:57:11 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World "A Skeptics Guide to the New Age" In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19990310100350.0091a960@ozemail.com.au> References: <36DB5C4A.586FE6E8@eden.com> <3.0.2.32.19990302114754.007d2c40@ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Glad to hear. There are so many good things out there that many of do not know of. Now I know Aromatherapy works. ...mkr At 10:03 AM 3/10/1999 +1000, you wrote: >MKR, > >My wife has studied aromatherapy extensively and we use it almost everyday >for one reason or another. Lavender, Peppermint, Ylang Ylang, Neroli, >Lemon, Jasmine, Rose etc all have various uses that I can vouch for. This >is why in a book such as the Skeptics Guide (herein SGTTNA) if one entry >can be proven to be wrong then that must cast doubt on all entries. > > >DGP > >At 09:34 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >>"D. Porter" wrote: >> >>> It's the usual debunking fare - but I think a few of the entries aren't >>> very well reseacrhed or fair so I was thinking of writing to the author and >>> attempting to set him straight. I was only going to deal with 2 entries for >>> starters - Atlantis and Aromatherapy >> >>Having mentioned Aromatherapy, I cannot but describe what I was told of an >actual >>experience in the hospital where one of ny close relatives spent several days >>after surgery. >> >>One of the nurses told me that there was a patient some years ago who came >with a >>box full of various bottles and from the time the patient was brought from >a major >>surgery till the time patient went home, not a single pain killer was >>administered. All pain was controlled by aromatherapy. Usually the >patients are >>given powerful pain killers and narcotics are the usual choice. >> >>mkr >> >> >>-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com >> >>Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >>teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >>"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. >> >> > > > > > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 9 21:02:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA17583 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:48:10 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990310024703.24492.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.95] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:47:03 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >Peter Merriott wrote: > >24th Feb I wrote: >The more I reflected on Jerry's and Rich's reply to your latest posts >the more I realised that almost all the posts you make to this group >contain reports of rumour and/or second hand slurs on people's character >and integrity......What is the basis of your research? >And how are you intending to use it? > >and again on the 25th Feb.. > >So I am naturally wondering how you see the Teachings of Theosophy, its >students, Madame Blavatsky, Judge & so on, and how this will inform your >research. Of course, you are entitled to whatever views you hold, and >yes, we do need to explore the facts (so called), and yes again, there >is no religion higher than truth. It's the regular theme of aspersion >and mockery based on second hand reports that weave in and out of your >posts that I am querying. Are there any examples of noble qualities, >accounts of honesty and integrity, validations of Theosophy, of HPB, >Judge and others that you are seeking to substantiate through your >research? > >If you want to use the people in this group to gain information for your >research dissertation, isn't it reasonable for you to inform the group >how you are going to use that information? > >For example, who you are doing it for - book, college course or PhD? >What is your particular interest in this theme of 'intrigue and casting >doubt' on theosophy and the integrity of its leaders? > >Given the negative theme that runs through your posts, one of the things >I am wondering is - are you hoping to validate or denigrate theosophy >and its leaders through your research? > Mr Peter Merriott----- You wrote----"almost all the posts you make to this group contain reports of rumour and/or second hand slurs on people's character and integrity." I've quoted first hand accounts, for example, on Mr W Judge & Mrs Tingley. Where were rumors & second hand slurs? The second hand slurs were in ULT's 1951 THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT on Mrs Tingley. I quoted ULT source to contrast it with first hand accounts on same subject. This is book Mr Dallas TenBroeck constantly advertises on this forum. Where is your indignation about slurs, etc in ULT book? Then----you wrote------ "It's the regular theme of aspersion and mockery based on second hand reports that weave in and out of your posts that I am querying." Mr Merriott give examples. What second hand reports? On Mr Robert Crosbie & Dzyan Esoteric School, ---I've dealt with available evidence & asked for more solid testimony & evidence. If you or Mr Richard Taylor or Mr Dallas TenBroeck are really interested in facts, historical truth-----why haven't one of you set record straight? No, you question my motivations & Mr. Taylor & Mr TenBroeck remain silent. & this silence is from Mr Taylor who prides himself in being scholar ready to ferret out facts however uncomfortable truth may turn out to be. Then you wrote----"if you want to use the people in this group to gain information for your research dissertation, isn't it reasonable for you to inform the group how you are going to use that information?" In last year or two, I've repeated several times on this forum what my interest were & what I was attempting to accomplish. I plan to write dissertation on Mr Judge. This semester I'm not in school but working to pay bills, etc. I may also write a book. Certainly a number of articles to be posted on the WWW. Question my motivations, Mr Merriott, but this appears nothing but distraction from subject matter. Thank God, I've had number of theosophists who've freely given information & documents. One theosophist in London sent me several packages of material in the last 18 months. Early last year I wrote Mr John Cooper of Australia & he wrote back sending bundle of documents on case of Mr Judge & material on Mr Crosbie, ULT & their Esoteric group. Mr Cooper didn't give me 3rd degree but gave freely & even refused to accept payment for material & postage. He didn't know me from Adam. This in sharp contrast with several so called theosophists who've questioned my motivations, have sent me private email threats etc, suggested they knew truth but refused to provide one iota of factual material. Latest example is ULT associate who said he knows about ULT's Esoteric school, said he could help, but who hasn't answered my reply. IMO these persons aren't interested in truth, especially if it disturbs their belief systems or goes against preconceptions of their favorite theosophical leader. So Mr Merriott---there you have it. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 10 08:47:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA07602 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:42:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:24:50 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be6af9$601d81a0$895c95c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990310024703.24492.qmail@hotmail.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear David, Anything that we do not know directly for ourselves is second hand. And even what we do 'know' is open to interpretation and is only ever one side of the matter. In Occult matters this is even more the case. Our motives, self interest and alliegences with others greatly influence what we 'see' and how we recall events. When it comes to issues of leadership, 'special status' and power and in organisations these factors are even more important to bear in mind. That something is written in a book or a letter in no way alters this and in no way bestows any special authority on that person's words than if they told it to us over a lunchtime coffee. Surely political events over the last few years alone have taught us that things are never as they seem, and that reported statements, involving numbers of people, sometimes even 'on oath', may turn out to be totally false at a later date. We have also seen that the so called 'seekers after truth', who profess the unselfish desire *only to get at the facts*, can just as often turn out to have a personal agenda of their own - to pull down the other person / group. Ruining others through exposing their weakness seems to be a common currency in the modern age. You ask where are the rumours and slurs on other peoples characters in your posts. To this I have already replied in a previous post which I include below in case you missed it. I do not have a sense of indignation over anything you have written. But, as a theosophist, I do have a concern about where it is all leading. For, as said, the major theme of your posts (see my earlier response below) revolves around casting doubt on the integrity of Theosophy and its leaders. Only a few of these posts are from the book you mention, by the way. You wish to be taken as a serious researcher into theosophical matters yet your series of posts to Tony, which contained nothing but mockery and taunting of another theosophist for his views, do you no credit at all in this respect (see "Mahatmas" - 25 Jan 99:"Koothoomi unveiled" x 3 - 3 Feb 99). You ask members of this group to give you detailed information - about themselves, other theosophists (past & present) and their organisation, in order to confirm reports, rumours that you receive from your many un-named sources. Yet while your research dissertation is to explore the motives, actions and integrity of others you are far less forthcoming in giving out any information about yourself. Indeed, when asked for information, your response (to my post 24th Feb) was to express indignation that your own motives where being questioned. Even though I replied, you still did not answer any of the questions put to you, just as you did not you reply to MKR's question about your research back in January. In my profession, I regularly receive requests for help or information from students and other professionals who are carrying out research. In every case they offer, *without asking*, information about themselves, their background, their research aims, their interest in the topic, the Institution for which the research is being carried out, the level of the research project (eg Masters, PhD) and so on. Along with this there is usually a statement about confidentiality. There is nothing exceptional about any of this. It is simply in line with the professional and ethical codes for carrying out research. It only becomes exceptional when people are digging into the personal lives of others but are reluctant to give any information about themselves and how they intend to *use* that information. Even when asked, what have you told us of yourself and your research dissertation apart from that it is about W Q Judge? To the questions put to you from the above paragraph you have still offered no reply. I also asked "are you seeking to validate or denigrate theosophy and its leaders?" Again, no reply. In my earlier post I wrote: > So I am naturally wondering how you see the Teachings of Theosophy, its students, Madame Blavatsky, Judge & so on, and how this will inform your research. Of course, you are entitled to whatver views you hold, and yes, we do need to explore the facts (so called), and yes again, there is no religion higher than truth. It's the regular theme of aspersion and mockery based on second hand reports that weave in and out of your posts that I am queerying. Are there any examples of noble qualities, accounts of honesty and integrity, validations of Theosophy, of HPB, Judge and others that you are seeking to substantiate through your research?< Given that this *is* a Theosophical Group and you are researching theosophical matters the above are very relevant questions to ask. But still, you offer no reply to the specific questions therein. You write: > If you or Mr Richard Taylor or Mr Dallas TenBroeck are really > interested in facts, historical truth-----why haven't one of > you set record straight? No, you question my motivations > & Mr. Taylor & Mr TenBroeck remain silent. & this silence > is from Mr Taylor who prides himself in being scholar > ready to ferret out facts however uncomfortable truth may > turn out to be. David, what is so special about your motivations that you feel we mustn't ask you what is behind your research? I am not an associate of ULT, nor am I 'follower' of Judge, Crosbie, Tingley and others. In fact I have no information about historical matters that is worthy to give or to withold in a group like this. Members of this group only know you through the posts you have made to it. So, even if they have it to give, why should people give you information when, as yet, they don't know whether you intend to do a servive or a dis-service to the cause of Theosophy - of which many of the people in this group are dedicated students. But let's leave other people out of it for the moment and focus only on our posts to each other. Given the number of unanswered questions I have put to you, the only person who appears to be reluctant to give out some facts and set the record straight is yourself. As for me, I am a very imperfect student of HPB and the Masters. Any thing that you wish to know of my understanding of the Teachings (as opposed to personalities) I would be happy to pass on. In my 30+ years of studying their work I have found there is a fount of knowledge therein which speaks to my soul of the highest truths and points to a spiritual path along which I struggle at the rear and try to make some little progress. My own small endeavours have left me with a sense of profound respect and loyalty to those that have gone before me and whom have made it possible for myself and others to have that opportunity to "TRY". I also recognise that many of those ahead of me are not perfect, sometimes they fail (seemingly) in their attempts to clear the way for others. But I also remember what a dear friend and fellow traveller pointed out to me many years ago: "Great individuals make great mistakes." And I have since come to appreciate that exceptional people on the 'spiritual path' often have exceptional burdens to carry and trials to face. If you research project is to shed some more light on the noble efforts of such individuals and the Path they tread then I for one would be willing to support you where I can. So please say more. Best wishes, PETER *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Copy of my post to you Dated 25th February 1999 Peter wrote: I'm making an observation, not an accusation, along with a desire to know more about your views and how you are going to use your research. I appreciate that in your posts you are passing on the views of others which may not be your own. It's just that the theme that binds them all together is one of casting aspersion on, if not mocking, the character of others. The posts I have in mind are: 1. Your series of posts on the themes of Judge Communicates with dead Blavatsky and Kingsley Channels dead Judge and culminating in quotes casting doubt on the integrity and character of both Judge and Kingsly. For example, Judge is a deluded leader, a guileless psychic: Mrs Tingley at best self deluded, at worst a charlaton. 2. The post on 'Judge is Rajah' followed up by Pryse's mockery of Judge as being ridiculous. 3. The R.A. Gilbert post asserting that devestating attacks on the Mahatma Letters and the objectivity of Lillie and his attacks on the Mahatma Letters have yet to be responded to. 4. The Post on Fictitious Tibet & Madame Blavatsky, a "pique" of mockery on Theosophy and its founders, wherein it accused: - Madame Blavatsky of being a phoney and self deluded fraud - The Secret Doctrine as being "horrendous hogwash" - The Esoteric Schools and Brotherhood as being a pure fiction - The Masters of being a silly fiction of HPB's imagination .. and casted Madame Blavatsky in the same light as the "aggressive homsosexual" Leadbeater and Lobsang Rampa. (Actually it was interesting that the writer of that article stated Henry Olcott to be genuine and HPB to be a fraud, especially as both professed to have the same Master and follow the same esoteric tradition. Olcott also testified to meeting both the Master M & Master KH in the flesh, as did Damador, Brown (who met KH) and others. Either this didn't seem worth mentioning as it didn't support the author's views or our anthropological author didn't research very deeply into the subject matter he professed to know so much about.) 5. With your latest posts: > Does anyone know who these 7 trustees are? > They are not elected by ULT associates. > This board is the power behind the ULT, > Los Angeles & is accountable to no one > especially to the rank & file ULT associates, > a former ULTite tells me. To ask who runs ULT and how they are elected is a simple question deserving of a straight forward answer. But the way you put it came across to me as more on the same theme - another round of reported rumour, allegation and aspersion. I imagine it may have come across to Rich in the same way. Hence his last words to you in his reply: > This will get you farther than allegations posted to a public forum.< 6. All your posts above are qoutes from 'sources' with virtually no views of your own attached. In order to discover something about the latter I glanced back to see what other posts you had made over the last few months. The only ones I could find were your dialogues with Tony (re: Koothoomi Unveiled) which contained yet another round of mocking a theosphist for his views. So I am naturally wondering how you see the Teachings of Theosophy, its students, Madame Blavatsky, Judge & so on, and how this will inform your research. Of course, you are entitled to whatver views you hold, and yes, we do need to explore the facts (so called), and yes again, there is no religion higher than truth. It's the regular theme of aspersion and mockery based on second hand reports that weave in and out of your posts that I am queerying. Are there any examples of noble qualities, accounts of honesty and integrity, validations of Theosophy, of HPB, Judge and others that you are seeking to substantiate through your research? Regards Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 10 12:02:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA01665 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:57:03 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <004901be6b1f$4be96de0$878306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Theos-World Who is right? Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:55:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01BE6B27.9424F860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BE6B27.9424F860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In Theosophy World #33, March 1, 1999 (Part I) appeares the reprint: = "THE NEW LEADER from THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, September, 1929, 8-12]". In = the first paragraph we read: "Appointment of Dr. Gottfried de Purucker = to succeed the late Madame Katherine Tingley as Leader and Official Head = of the Universal Brotherhood and Theosophical Society was announced = yesterday at the International Headquarters of the Society on Point = Loma. Appointment of her successor had been made by Katherine Tingley before she died..." OTOH, James Long declared that KT never appointed GdeP and the more = never any Leader appointed any successor; to be found The Leaders Tour = in Europe, pp. 25-28. Now, who is right? Any idea? ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BE6B27.9424F860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In Theosophy World #33, March 1, 1999 = (Part I)=20 appeares the reprint: "THE NEW LEADER from THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM,=20 September, 1929, 8-12]". In the first paragraph we read: = "Appointment=20 of Dr. Gottfried de Purucker to succeed the late Madame Katherine = Tingley as=20 Leader and Official Head of the Universal Brotherhood and Theosophical = Society=20 was announced yesterday at the International Headquarters of the Society = on=20 Point Loma. Appointment of her successor had been made by
Katherine = Tingley=20 before she died..."
 
OTOH, James Long declared that KT never = appointed=20 GdeP and the more never any Leader appointed any successor; to be found = The=20 Leaders Tour in Europe, pp. 25-28.
 
Now, who is right? Any = idea?
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BE6B27.9424F860-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 10 13:05:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA08399 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:49:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <009e01be6b26$aa618680$878306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:26:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com David Green wrote: >payment for material & postage. He didn't know me from Adam. This in >sharp contrast with several so called theosophists who've questioned my >motivations, have sent me private email threats etc, suggested they knew >truth but refused to provide one iota of factual material. Latest Don't worry! These same experiences had I in my theos. historical research, perhaps every researcher has made this experiences. I am not an active member of any T.S. and therefore I am free to ask questions - even forbidden questions in the eyes of the receivers - to all lienages and groups. My recent questions about some Pasadena TS actions are obviously forbidden by the partisans, hurting me with slanders like "dogmatism" or even "sectarian" or "bullshit". Even simple common questions were not answered, i.e. from Rich. That is their right, but I image that their policy is - in the eyes of Mrs. Grundy - in the turn is dogmatic and sectarian. So their slanders may be nothing else than projection of their own condition. All that is sad for a movement with the motto: "There is no religion higher than truth!" Under the leadership of KT and GdeP in the Point Loma Society every such attempt of dogmatism was soon rott out, everyone had the right for information, newbie's were even suggested to read the most slanderous and biased stories about their TS! The doors of the staff were literaly always open, and they were enjoyed when someone entered and asked something. The closed-shop policy of nowadays is obviously an invention of James Long and his new Pasadena TS. He has declared himself as successor, pushed away the rightful successor William Hartley with occult methods. A qualified minority of some 40% of the membership didn't accept the claims of Mr. Long, their membership was canceled and they remained as independent Point Loma Theosophists, true to their own pledges. As the scandalous article of Alan Donant shows there is no hope that the Pasadena Theosophists are willing to work for truth, although the pityful things are now 50 years back! What a luck the Theosophical Movement is of pluralism and we have not a single theosophic Vatican. And with the groth of the internet the foot has more possibilites to speak for themselve instead to receive only the half-true official reports. More facts, less hypocrisy is needed for the Theos. Movement of the 21st Century. Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 10 13:18:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA11458 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:06:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990310190454.26987.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.95] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:04:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Peter Merriott--- Your post is 5 pages printed & an adequate reply would require 15 pages. I have neither inclination nor time to write that reply. But I'll briefly answer some of your points. You appear to question my motivations, my motives. To be blunt and honest, I could care less what you believe my motives are. Paint me a "vile dugpa" hell bent on detroying theosophy & the theosophical movement. Nothing I could write would convince those who desire to assign me a negative motivation. I consider myself a seeker of truth interested in getting at the facts. Take it or leave it. You ask----"are you seeking to validate or denigrate Theosophy and its leaders?" I've studied theosophical teachings for several years. I'm very interested in the teachings, but wondering if some of them can be validated. Theosophy makes some big claims & I'm dubious of some of them. But I'm open to new insights & willing to set aside doubts in order to learn. I don't seek to denigrate theosophical leaders but reserve the right to question claims & statements by these leaders, especially when there are competing & conflicting claims by various leaders. I'm fascinated especially by Mrs Blavatsky's & W Judge's claims & lives. But I'm genuinely confused by conflicting accounts of their lives. I selected W Q Judge for my proposed dissertation for a number of reasons. I had wanted to do one on Mrs Blavatsky but in view of the many works on her, decided to focus on Mr Judge. With few works devoted to his life or the controversies surrounding him, I decided this would be the ideal study. I plan to focus on the controversies surrounding his life: the "Judge Case" & his relation with Mrs Tingley. Because of the documents I have in my possession, I also hope to write a section on the claims of Robert Crosbie & ULT in relation to Mr Judge. Initially I assumed I could do the research in about a year but greater familiarity with the material tells me it will be a project of several years. I've decided to write articles on various aspects of these subjects, post them on the WWW, & consider writing a book in conjunction with the proposed dissertation. With my family & financial situation, the project may take 5 years to complete. Regarding the 6 items marked as such, I post material to this public forum which may or may not be related to my project. The Bharati article & the Gilbert essay I discovered on the WWW & thought other students would find of interest. Some of the points in these 2 articles may or may not be true. I don't know. I'm open to a different view & will keep an open mind. The material I posted on Judge & Tingley is very relevant to my study. I've posted the material here since (as far as I know) this material is not easily accesible & is not found in books on the subject. The "quotes casting doubt on the integrity and character of both Judge and Tingley" were from ULT's history. I personally believe that the ULT writers have defamed & denigrated Mrs Tingley. Mr Pryse's "mockery" as you call it may or may not be justified. But if what he reports is true, then what is one to conclude? I hope to go over this matter in my study. I'm sorry if I don't pass your litmus test. Also being a subscriber to this public forum doesn't mean one needs be a true believer in Theosophy, right? The material I posted here has been helpful to a number of subscribers as they've emailed me & told me. I have also been able through this forum to establish contact with a number of persons who have shared relevant materials with me or have suggested various contacts. I appreciate their help & they did not require that I be subjected to a FBI check. I hope this satisfies some of your questions. I don't intend to pursue this in any more detail because it is totally irrelevant to my study. I don't need your approval or the approval of MKR. I have no idea what your background is or what MKR's background is. And really don't care to know. Regarding my supposed mockery of Tony, reread what I wrote to him twice. I was mocking his supposed superior insight & spiritual standing. I asked him to get off his high horse & join us common mortals. Regarding my alleged "interrogation" of Mr Dallas TenBroeck, he has been quite agressive on this public forum with persons who have dared to question Mrs Blavatsky's & Mr Judge's claims. He has demanded evidence. I'm not criticizing his point of view but he has had no qualms to criticize the views, for example, of Mr Paul Johnson & Mr Richard Taylor. He's made several quite loud protests on theostalk. Mr TenBroeck has also made denigrating statements about C W Leadbeater & Annie Besant. All that is okay with me. Mr TenBroeck has taken every opportunity to advertise the ULT & the ULT history of the Theosophical Movement. Therefore, that subject is fair game for investigation. Why shouldn't one be able to examine & question the claims surrounding Mr Robert Crosbie and the possibility that the ULT has their own esoteric group even while defaming the esoteric groups of other Theosophical organizations? Several of my email correspondents suggested I contact Mr TenBroeck on these subjects. Instead of contacting him privately, I decided to post the questions publicly for all to read. If Mr TenBroeck refrains from answering my post, that's his decision. So once again you have it. I'm going back to finish my next brief article on the ULT & will post it shortly here. David Green >From: "Peter Merriott" >Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >To: >Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:24:50 -0000 > >Dear David, > >Anything that we do not know directly for ourselves is second hand. And even >what we do 'know' is open to interpretation and is only ever one side of the >matter. In Occult matters this is even more the case. Our motives, self >interest and alliegences with others greatly influence what we 'see' and how >we recall events. When it comes to issues of leadership, 'special status' >and power and in organisations these factors are even more important to >bear in mind. That something is written in a book or a letter in no way >alters this and in no way bestows any special authority on that person's >words than if they told it to us over a lunchtime coffee. > >Surely political events over the last few years alone have taught us that >things are never as they seem, and that reported statements, involving >numbers of people, sometimes even 'on oath', may turn out to be totally >false at a later date. We have also seen that the so called 'seekers after >truth', who profess the unselfish desire *only to get at the facts*, can >just as often turn out to have a personal agenda of their own - to pull down >the other person / group. Ruining others through exposing their weakness >seems to be a common currency in the modern age. > >You ask where are the rumours and slurs on other peoples characters in your >posts. To this I have already replied in a previous post which I include >below in case you missed it. I do not have a sense of indignation over >anything you have written. But, as a theosophist, I do have a concern about >where it is all leading. For, as said, the major theme of your posts (see >my earlier response below) revolves around casting doubt on the integrity of >Theosophy and its leaders. Only a few of these posts are from the book you >mention, by the way. > >You wish to be taken as a serious researcher into theosophical matters yet >your series of posts to Tony, which contained nothing but mockery and >taunting of another theosophist for his views, do you no credit at all in >this respect (see "Mahatmas" - 25 Jan 99:"Koothoomi unveiled" x 3 - 3 Feb >99). > >You ask members of this group to give you detailed information - about >themselves, other theosophists (past & present) and their organisation, in >order to confirm reports, rumours that you receive from your many un-named >sources. Yet while your research dissertation is to explore the motives, >actions and integrity of others you are far less forthcoming in giving out >any information about yourself. Indeed, when asked for information, your >response (to my post 24th Feb) was to express indignation that your own >motives where being questioned. Even though I replied, you still did not >answer any of the questions put to you, just as you did not you reply to >MKR's question about your research back in January. > >In my profession, I regularly receive requests for help or information from >students and other professionals who are carrying out research. In every >case they offer, *without asking*, information about themselves, their >background, their research aims, their interest in the topic, the >Institution for which the research is being carried out, the level of the >research project (eg Masters, PhD) and so on. Along with this there is >usually a statement about confidentiality. There is nothing exceptional >about any of this. It is simply in line with the professional and ethical >codes for carrying out research. It only becomes exceptional when people >are digging into the personal lives of others but are reluctant to give any >information about themselves and how they intend to *use* that information. > >Even when asked, what have you told us of yourself and your research >dissertation apart from that it is about W Q Judge? To the questions put to >you from the above paragraph you have still offered no reply. I also asked >"are you seeking to validate or denigrate theosophy and its leaders?" >Again, no reply. In my earlier post I wrote: > >> So I am naturally wondering how you see the Teachings of Theosophy, its >students, Madame Blavatsky, Judge & so on, and how this will inform your >research. Of course, you are entitled to whatver views you hold, and yes, >we do need to explore the facts (so called), and yes again, there is no >religion higher than truth. It's the regular theme of aspersion and >mockery based on second hand reports that weave in and out of your posts >that I am queerying. Are there any examples of noble qualities, accounts of >honesty and integrity, validations of Theosophy, of HPB, Judge and others >that you are seeking to substantiate through your research?< > >Given that this *is* a Theosophical Group and you are researching >theosophical matters the above are very relevant questions to ask. But >still, you offer no reply to the specific questions therein. > >You write: > >> If you or Mr Richard Taylor or Mr Dallas TenBroeck are really >> interested in facts, historical truth-----why haven't one of >> you set record straight? No, you question my motivations >> & Mr. Taylor & Mr TenBroeck remain silent. & this silence >> is from Mr Taylor who prides himself in being scholar >> ready to ferret out facts however uncomfortable truth may >> turn out to be. > >David, what is so special about your motivations that you feel we mustn't >ask you what is behind your research? I am not an associate of ULT, nor am >I 'follower' of Judge, Crosbie, Tingley and others. In fact I have no >information about historical matters that is worthy to give or to withold in >a group like this. Members of this group only know you through the posts >you have made to it. So, even if they have it to give, why should people >give you information when, as yet, they don't know whether you intend to do >a servive or a dis-service to the cause of Theosophy - of which many of the >people in this group are dedicated students. > >But let's leave other people out of it for the moment and focus only on our >posts to each other. Given the number of unanswered questions I have put to >you, the only person who appears to be reluctant to give out some facts and >set the record straight is yourself. > >As for me, I am a very imperfect student of HPB and the Masters. Any thing >that you wish to know of my understanding of the Teachings (as opposed to >personalities) I would be happy to pass on. In my 30+ years of studying >their work I have found there is a fount of knowledge therein which speaks >to my soul of the highest truths and points to a spiritual path along which >I struggle at the rear and try to make some little progress. My own small >endeavours have left me with a sense of profound respect and loyalty to >those that have gone before me and whom have made it possible for myself and >others to have that opportunity to "TRY". > >I also recognise that many of those ahead of me are not perfect, sometimes >they fail (seemingly) in their attempts to clear the way for others. But I >also remember what a dear friend and fellow traveller pointed out to me many >years ago: > >"Great individuals make great mistakes." > >And I have since come to appreciate that exceptional people on the >'spiritual path' often have exceptional burdens to carry and trials to face. > >If you research project is to shed some more light on the noble efforts of >such individuals and the Path they tread then I for one would be willing to >support you where I can. So please say more. > >Best wishes, PETER > > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >Copy of my post to you Dated 25th February 1999 > >Peter wrote: > >I'm making an observation, not an accusation, along with a desire to know >more about your views and how you are going to use your research. I >appreciate that in your posts you are passing on the views of others which >may not be your own. It's just that the theme that binds them all together >is one of casting aspersion on, if not mocking, the character of others. > >The posts I have in mind are: > >1. Your series of posts on the themes of Judge Communicates with dead >Blavatsky and Kingsley Channels dead Judge and culminating in quotes casting >doubt on the integrity and character of both Judge and Kingsly. For >example, Judge is a deluded leader, a guileless psychic: Mrs Tingley at >best self deluded, at worst a charlaton. > >2. The post on 'Judge is Rajah' followed up by Pryse's mockery of Judge as >being ridiculous. > >3. The R.A. Gilbert post asserting that devestating attacks on the Mahatma >Letters and the objectivity of Lillie and his attacks on the Mahatma Letters >have yet to be responded to. > >4. The Post on Fictitious Tibet & Madame Blavatsky, a "pique" of mockery on >Theosophy and its founders, wherein it accused: >- Madame Blavatsky of being a phoney and self deluded fraud >- The Secret Doctrine as being "horrendous hogwash" >- The Esoteric Schools and Brotherhood as being a pure fiction >- The Masters of being a silly fiction of HPB's imagination >.. and casted Madame Blavatsky in the same light as the "aggressive >homsosexual" Leadbeater and Lobsang Rampa. > >(Actually it was interesting that the writer of that article stated Henry >Olcott to be genuine and HPB to be a fraud, especially as both professed to >have the same Master and follow the same esoteric tradition. Olcott also >testified to meeting both the Master M & Master KH in the flesh, as did >Damador, Brown (who met KH) and others. Either this didn't seem worth >mentioning as it didn't support the author's views or our anthropological >author didn't research very deeply into the subject matter he professed to >know so much about.) > >5. With your latest posts: > >> Does anyone know who these 7 trustees are? >> They are not elected by ULT associates. >> This board is the power behind the ULT, >> Los Angeles & is accountable to no one >> especially to the rank & file ULT associates, >> a former ULTite tells me. > >To ask who runs ULT and how they are elected is a simple question deserving >of a straight forward answer. But the way you put it came across to me as >more on the same theme - another round of reported rumour, allegation and >aspersion. > >I imagine it may have come across to Rich in the same way. Hence his last >words to you in his reply: > >> This will get you farther than allegations posted to a public forum.< > >6. All your posts above are qoutes from 'sources' with virtually no views >of your own attached. In order to discover something about the latter I >glanced back to see what other posts you had made over the last few months. >The only ones I could find were your dialogues with Tony (re: Koothoomi >Unveiled) which contained yet another round of mocking a theosphist for his >views. > >So I am naturally wondering how you see the Teachings of Theosophy, its >students, Madame Blavatsky, Judge & so on, and how this will inform your >research. Of course, you are entitled to whatver views you hold, and yes, >we do need to explore the facts (so called), and yes again, there is no >religion higher than truth. It's the regular theme of aspersion and >mockery based on second hand reports that weave in and out of your posts >that I am queerying. Are there any examples of noble qualities, accounts of >honesty and integrity, validations of Theosophy, of HPB, Judge and others >that you are seeking to substantiate through your research? > >Regards > >Peter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 10 14:41:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA20414 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:19:47 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:17:55 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Research and defense Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/10/99 2:47:47 PM, you wrote: Peter reminds us that David Green has sent the list a host of allegations against Theosophy. One of these was the following article, which Mr. Green was kind enough to lead me to in its entirety: <<4. The Post on Fictitious Tibet & Madame Blavatsky, a "pique" of mockery on Theosophy and its founders, wherein it accused: - Madame Blavatsky of being a phoney and self deluded fraud - The Secret Doctrine as being "horrendous hogwash" - The Esoteric Schools and Brotherhood as being a pure fiction - The Masters of being a silly fiction of HPB's imagination .. and casted Madame Blavatsky in the same light as the "aggressive homsosexual" Leadbeater and Lobsang Rampa.>> I have just finished the first two chapters of the Ph.D. dissertation that I wrote the list about a few months ago, and I am happy to say I was able to DEMOLISH the arguments made by Agehananda Bharati in this article "Fictitious Tibet." Using old and new dictionaries of Tibetan, Sanskrit, Chinese and Mongolian, and studying HPB's work in the context of her contemporaries, it can CONCLUSIVELY be shown that HPB was using words (that turn out to be REAL Buddhist words) that no one else had access to. She quotes texts (that turn out to be REAL Buddist texts) that no one else had access to. One of the sadder parts of this research paper so far has been to find also that HPB has done quite a lot of plagiarism too -- using someone else's works for pages and pages without citation. Frequently she has done this only to question what was written or add to it a more esoteric character, like her Theosophical Glossary. Possibly last century there would have been no objection to this. But it looks bad today. This issue is not a major one, I think, in light of the masses of things I was able to prove were utterly unique to HPB, her relationship with the Buddhist KALACHAKRA TANTRA and other important texts that are indeed *exactly* what she said they were: "Esoteric Buddhism." I have hard copies of this 110 page paper for those who want hard copy, and it will be up on the web, at the site Blavatsky Net, hopefully in about a week or so. As for the next two chapters of it, those probably won't be done for six months or more. As for Theosophical research in general, and my particular projects, I would like to say that it should be impersonal. You will rarely if ever find that my research takes me into areas about people's personal lives. I would rather study ideas, terms, concepts, the history of teachings, etc. All of this tends to vindicate rather than condemn, even when (as above) a few unfortunate things turn up too. That's because it's objective, and not subjective. What kind of private studies students may carry on, whether Mr. Judge thought he was channeling HPB (and maybe he was), etc. etc. -- these things are (1) None of my business and (2) Of no help in validating our movement before a skeptical public. None of this is to condemn Mr. Green, who has been taken a few (legitimate) hits lately. It may be possible for Mr. Green to reformulate his research, explain it better to the list, and make offers of confidentiality, that will allow long-time Theosophists to offer up help and comments. Meanwhile, I have never said, nor do I believe, that academic-style research replaces legitimate spiritual work. I fully expect now that about 10 people will write how all of this is a distraction, a corruption, yadda yadda yadda. In fact, this kind of research is merely one part of the movement. It's a part that I like, others may not, and that's fine. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 10 17:11:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA03938 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:53:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <001a01be6b48$b8a6a960$ec8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Adepts Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:52:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >All this makes one wonder if the real work of the TS is over. > >Is TS on autopilot with the purely mechanical job publishing the works >written in early days, the copyrights to all of them having expired is now >in public domain. > >Any ideas? > >mkr "I am convinced that the great effort of the 20th Century will not be in contravention of that of the last century and may begin outside the ranks of any of the organized Theosophical groups [Adyar, Pasadena, ULT]. Frankly, I do not see in any of them today the potentialities, the acomplishments, or the *insignia majestatis* that would inspire full confidence, if one takes a commonsense approach in 1975." - Iverson L. Harris, The Eclectic Theosophist No.5, Sept.27, 1971. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 06:23:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA06915 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:17:26 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:02:52 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be6bb7$17276ec0$955895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19990310190454.26987.qmail@hotmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear David, You write: > Your post is 5 pages printed... Actually it felt longer!.. though I guess that's partly because it included a copy of a previous post, and partly because it has taken some effort before you were willing to share something of the background to your investigations and posts. I'm surprised at the indignation that accompanies your protestations and the suggestion that you are being subjected to an "FBI check" or "litmus test". The questions I have asked you (and those that MKR asked you in January) have really been quite simple. What is the basis for your research and how will you use the information you are seeking? Yes of course this involves asking you to clarify the motivation behind your research. Is that so strange given the allegations towards others you were forwarding to this List? The crux of your research involves investigating the personal lives of others along with questioning their character, motives and integrity. Even your response to my first post was to question my motives, was it not? So why feel so affronted, David, when someone asks you about your own? Bear in mind that you can reply to anything that I, or others, may say about you. The people whose lives you are investigating (Judge, Crosbie and presumably HPB will be drawn into it too) cannot challenge the allegations made about them that you post to this group and which will appear in your essays / web site. You write: > Regarding my supposed mockery of Tony, reread what I wrote to him twice. > I was mocking his supposed superior insight & spiritual standing. I > asked him to get off his high horse & join us common mortals. As you acknowledge, it isn't "supposed" mockery. Yes, I have re-read all four of your posts to Tony. Your replies contain the kind of mocking and taunting one normally finds in the school playground. Any one here can check for themselves whether your replies were warranted - the dates are in my previous post to you. They left me feeling very concerned as to how you would use the information gained from this group to portray other theosophists in your research, especially those who might *in your eyes* appear to claim some spiritual standing. > I've studied theosophical teachings for several years. I'm > very interested in the teachings, but wondering if some of them can be > validated. Theosophy makes some big claims & I'm dubious of some of > them. But I'm open to new insights & willing to set aside doubts in > order to learn. I don't seek to denigrate theosophical leaders but > reserve the right to question claims & statements by these leaders, > especially when there are competing & conflicting claims by various > leaders. Like you I have also wondered whether some of the "big claims" of Theosophy will be validated. Perhaps you could share with us the sort of claims you had in mind? Then we could look at them together as a group. I'm sure many people here would be able to throw some light on them and suggest ways of approaching these questions. My own investigations into Theosophy have led me to believe that the 'big claims' are based upon Fundamental Truths which we can ascertain (to one degree or another) through the development of our 'inner nature'. Each of us has to do this verification for ourselves. The claims of others, no matter how noble and spiritual, are no substitute for our own efforts. Its good to hear that you are not seeking to denigrate theosophical leaders. To question claims, to keep an open mind, and to be willing to learn, is about as much as one can ask of a student of theosophy and a genuine researcher. Though, as you would expect, I would suggest that to investigate the Teachings rather than the personal lives of others is more likely to throw light on its 'claims'. Raking through controversies has a way of stirring up smouldering grievances and ill will. History contains events but does it contain facts, as such? Each person has her/his own set of interpretations about events which masquerade as 'facts'. Yet most of us are unaware of even the psychological forces that infuence, unseen, our perceptions and behaviour . How many are aware of the Occult and spiritual forces that operate 'unseen' behind the appearance of things? Mostly we judge by appearances alone and miss the underlying causes. So even our perception of events, prior to interpretation, is very limited. Hence the need to question and keep an open mind, as you quite rightly say. I bear you no ill will, David. Since I have no affiliations with the organisations and groups you are investigating (or any TS organisation) I also have no vested interest in you either getting or not getting the information you seek. I do, however, feel a sense of loyalty to fellow students of Theosophy especially to those courageous souls who helped bring those teachings into the world and who have already suffered more than their fair share of personal slander and abuse. Best wishes Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 07:23:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA10515 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:22:35 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990311072200.00efd684@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:22:00 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Research and defense In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 03:17 PM 3/10/1999 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 3/10/99 2:47:47 PM, you wrote: > >Peter reminds us that David Green has sent the list a host of allegations >against Theosophy. One of these was the following article, which Mr. Green >was kind enough to lead me to in its entirety: > ><<4. The Post on Fictitious Tibet & Madame Blavatsky, a "pique" of mockery on > >Theosophy and its founders, wherein it accused: > >- Madame Blavatsky of being a phoney and self deluded fraud > >- The Secret Doctrine as being "horrendous hogwash" > >- The Esoteric Schools and Brotherhood as being a pure fiction > >- The Masters of being a silly fiction of HPB's imagination > >.. and casted Madame Blavatsky in the same light as the "aggressive > >homsosexual" Leadbeater and Lobsang Rampa.>> This is the most outrageous list of allegations/conclusions I have seen. What TS, Theosophy, HPB and others have left behind can speak for themselves and stand on their own. Just the fact that TS, Theosophy, HPB and others are discussed here and around the world after a century itself speaks volume. Those who want to believe in the above list, may be better off if they take time to read the voluminous printed material that is out there before they be believe in any of them. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 07:53:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA11700 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:40:44 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Research and defense Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:39:22 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be6bc4$929bd200$ae5c95c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Rich, I am looking forward to reading your first chapters when they appear on Blavatsky.net You write: > Meanwhile, I have never said, nor do I believe, that > academic-style research replaces legitimate spiritual work. > I fully expect now that about 10 people will write how all > of this is a distraction, a corruption, yadda yadda yadda. > In fact, this kind of research is merely one part of the movement. It's a > part that I like, others may not, and that's fine. I think you have made that very clear in previous posts and its worth repeating. We have already had a long dialogue about this so we both know we have different views. Actually, I have mixed feelings. One part of me feels if academics can't be persuaded by the ideas and substance of the doctrines then what difference will the 'officially correct' spellings and dictionary definitions make? Another part of me recognises that a part of the work you are involved in will make it that much harder for such people to dismiss HPB out of hand. It certainly would be valuable if the teachings of theosophy were accepted and included in the academic stream where they might be made known to more students. When I think of that it makes it seem very worthwhile. Also when I sense the passion in your words around this topic I inevitably think if any one could make it worthwhile then you could. Best wishes Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 08:08:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA12978 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:57:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:53:31 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/11/99 7:23:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, caduceus@dial.pipex.com writes: << Your replies contain the kind of mocking and taunting one normally finds in the school playground.>> As does this endless back and forth between any number of people on these lists. I do not mean any further injury with this observation. But, this pervasive "I'm right You're wrong" underpinning does not do any one any good. Please do not take offense Peter or David, I am simply using this specific group of communications to point to a much more generalized observation of past personality conflicts. In my opinion, these lists contain the creme' de la creme' of modern day Theosophists. There is no lack of power or focus to perceive the real value underlying any Theosophical theme. So I would like to offer this possibility. Whenever our status quo appears challenged, let the investigator go where he is going. Let us wait until he has concluded his findings. His real motives and intents will be reflected therein, not in his investigatory personality. If he has uncovered a thing of value, we are all benefited by it. If not, is there anyone here who doubts the capacity of certain members to show the investigator the error of his ways? We get to the conclusions and their resolutions, when necessary, quicker, when we do not complicate things by overstating the details of the journey. I apologize in advance for any ruffled feathers. This is just one person's opinion. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 09:30:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA20165 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:09:10 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: Inspirational Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:07:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000301be6bd9$32dd6d00$ad0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 11th 1999 Dear Lori: That is a lovely analogy and illustration of brotherhood Many thanks for sharing it. Dallas Subject: Inspirational Heaven and Hell - The Real Difference A man spoke with the Lord about heaven and hell. The Lord said to the man, "Come, I will show you hell." They entered a room where a group of people sat around a huge pot of stew. Everyone was famished, desperate and starving. Each held a spoon that reached the pot, but each spoon had a handle so much longer than their own arm that it could not be used to get the stew into their own mouths. The suffering was terrible. "Come, now I will show you heaven," the Lord said after a while. They entered another room, identical to the first - the pot of stew, the group of people, the same long-handled spoons. But there everyone was happy and well-nourished. "I don't understand," said the man. "Why are they happy here when they were miserable in the other room and everything was the same?" The Lord smiled, "Ah, it is simple," he said. "here they have learned to feed each other." By Ann Landers from A 2nd Helping of Chicken Soup for the Soul -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 09:44:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA22292 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:29:21 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: alpha@dircon.co.uk Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:27:35 GMT Message-Id: <199903111527.PAA23798@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: alpha@popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear David You write: >Regarding my supposed mockery of Tony, reread what I wrote to him twice. >I was mocking his supposed superior insight & spiritual standing. I >asked him to get off his high horse & join us common mortals. As this is coming up again: "Men ridicule what they do not properly understand." And with regard to your repeating the same sentence over and over again, hundreds (?) of times like some mantram. It is extremely irresponsibe to do it: "The *mantram* ignorantly employed may, and often has, proved a treacherous weapon, whose mystical power has caused it to turn and *stab the user*" (CW 4, p.166) If memory serves correctly much of this was about the MAHATMAS. You write: >>My motive is to look for the truth on this subject. And I consider myself a seeker of truth >interested in getting at the facts. Motive, and right and wrong motives. What is right motive? What does it mean? Is it about where the motive is based, whether it is more within, or whether it is outside? Is it more to the region of higher manas and to the spiritual, or more towards lower manas? It may be for motive to be right (?), it is necessary for it to be based in the inner spiritual being, rather than being based in the outer man? The difference is vast. Where is the truth you are looking for? In the outer world or in the inner world? In our studies do we attempt to go to the CAUSE, or just play around with the effects? >>Are you a member of the D.E.S.? Have you seen the portraits of Mrs >>Blavatsky's Masters in the Esoteric Room at Los Angeles U.L.T. >>headquarters? No to the first. No to visiting the Esoteric Room. And no to seeing the portraits within the room. As far as portraits of the Masters, HPB never saw the Masters as hers, and always referred to one of them as Master, rather than MY master. Photographs and otherwise of portraits of the Masters are not that difficult to come by. A study of the Mahatmas, and some understanding of the Mahatmas, would throw quite a different light on these matters, and the kind of questions you are asking would then not arise. You would no longer call her Mrs Blavatsky and you would not write about her in terms of her claims, because they would no longer be claims, and thus quite a different attitude and approach would arise. In fact, a far more humble approach. All good wishes in your Theosophical studies Tony Paint me a >"vile dugpa" hell bent on detroying theosophy & the theosophical >movement. Note well David, these are your words. Perhaps you should be getting off your high horse:-) -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 10:14:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA25867 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:52:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199903111552.JAA25867@pippin.imagiware.com> X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:25:53 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler Subject: Theos-World Is the TS on Autopilot? Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Is TS on autopilot with the purely mechanical job publishing the works written in early days, the copyrights to all of them having expired is now in public domain. Any ideas? mkr>> I think that the TSs are in pretty much the same position as the early Christian church. The church was on auto-pilot waiting for the Second Coming. The TSs await the return of HPB's next incarnation. In both cases there is the very real problem of possibly not recognizing the founder's return when, and if, it does happen. I think it quite possible that Jesus and HPB could both reincarnate and not be recognized or accepted by their respective organizations. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 10:29:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA25861 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:52:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199903111552.JAA25861@pippin.imagiware.com> X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:11:10 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler Subject: Theos-World Are Ethics Essential for Progress? Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>So if anyone desires to make progress in either esoteric or occult matters they have to make an equal and even far more basic ethical change in their outlook. I think it is for this reason that the First Object of the T S was BROTHERHOOD. << In essence, Dallas, I agree with you here. However, my main problem when it comes to ethics, is that they should not be forced. Like psychic powers, they should develop naturally. A very important spiritual quality is spontenaiety which never develops when ethics are forced. My own personal opinion here, which culminates from years of experience and study, is that compassion is essential for occult progress--not ethics, which should be allowed to develop naturally as one becomes more compassionate. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 10:34:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA25852 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:52:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199903111552.JAA25852@pippin.imagiware.com> X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:33:00 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler Subject: Theos-World Slander Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Legally, in order to slander someone, what is being said must be false and injurous. The whole notion of true or untrue, however, can be pretty slippery and sometimes people say false things that they think are true. Slander is defined differently in occultism. Basically, occultism says that words are slanderous if they invoke hatred or hostility in another person, whether the words are true or false and immaterial of the intent of the speaker. I came across this ancient definition in the recent issue of Tricycle Magazine where it is said to be of Tibetan Buddhist origin. I think that this definition should apply to all Theosophists. This way we avoid endless argument over truth or falsity. Whenever we start to make derogatory remarks about another person, living or dead, true or false, if those remarks have the potential to inspire animosity in a reader, then they are slanderous and should be avoided. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 10:41:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA25855 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:52:29 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 10:51:25 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler Subject: Theos-World Response to Dallas Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <> Dallas, I understand your feeling here, but there is another side to it. It is vitally important to keep the Teachings alive. If we just keep the original writings and work only from them, we will soon have a dead letter. Someone recently posted a long quote from G de Purucker to the effect that words alone will reduce the TSs to just another religion, and that it is necessary to keep the spirit of the Teachings alive. This is done primarily by living the words, but also by communicating them in newer words. Truth has to be re-clothed in new expressions or it dies. I have yet to hear you give examples as to how the original message is "diverted" or abused by later writers, although I would agree that CWL tended to Christianize Theosophy, which is not good. What other writers do you think have adversely "filtered" the original message? de Purucker? Just curious. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 10:45:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA25839 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:52:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199903111552.JAA25839@pippin.imagiware.com> X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:03:35 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler Subject: Theos-World Is the SD Essential for Occult Progress? Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>If one desires to make any progress into the study of occultism then the principles set out in greater detail in the SD will be needed. They are basic and will be found used in the whole scheme without any deviation. I mean Karma, Unity of All in ALL, Evolution of the imperishable Monads, Mind is Soul, and this is Mankind, the 7 principles of the universe and man, the Rounds, Globes, Races, etc... as Cycles in time, etc., etc.<< Dallas, I agree that the three axioms discussed in the Proem are essential for any real progress. But the vast majority of today's occultists do not subscribe to the races, rounds, globes, planetary chains, and so on (what I have called the Gupta Vidya Model, since HPB never gave it a name) as detailed in the SD. Yet somehow they seem to have made "progress into the study of occultism" anyway. In fact, few Theosophists subscribe to the planetary chain model, (which I consider a shame, because I really like it) and even fewer seem to agree on what the globes and planes are (for example, I believe that they are similar to the Sephiroth and can be pathworked). While I applaud your reverence to the SD, I don't think that we can agree that her globes and rounds are essential in any way for occult progress. I prefer to think of them as a model, one of many good models that can help our limited human minds to grasp what is essentially ungraspable--the invisible worlds that surround our physical solar system. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 12:01:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA07479 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:53:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S ESOTERIC GROUP Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:52:18 -0000 Message-ID: <000201be6be7$e81ec2a0$ac5795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Louis, No need to apologies for ruffling my feathers. I probably need it. And no offence taken. Being a participant in the dialogue one doesn't have the privilege of seeing it from the observer position, so it is helpful when someone else speaks up. Looking at my words again, as you have quoted them below, I think it was a mistake to use that phrase. I think it reflected the irritation I felt having just gone back and read those posts again, as David requested. Thanks for bringing my attention to it. I also appreciate you are commenting on a more general process. I'm not sure I agree with your analysis about the status qou. It could become a little bit like sitting on the fence, or waiting to see if the horse bolts and then locking the stable door when he's gone. I think it is a balance isn't it, when and when not to challenge, when and when not to stand one's ground? And being human, we are bound to err in whatever direction we go. It is relatively easy to stay poised and balanced on even the thinnest fence if we don't get involved. I've already given my reasons for getting involved so I won't repeat them here. One definition of 'status qou' = "the existing state of affairs". How we see "the existing state of affairs" will influence who we think has challenged it. Thanks again for you comments. Best wishes Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Teos9@aol.com > Sent: 11 March 1999 13:54 > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TO---Dallas TenBroeck SUBJECT---ULT'S > ESOTERIC GROUP > > > In a message dated 3/11/99 7:23:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, > caduceus@dial.pipex.com writes: > > << Your replies contain the kind of mocking and > taunting one normally finds in the school playground.>> > > As does this endless back and forth between any number of people on these > lists. I do not mean any further injury with this observation. But, this > pervasive "I'm right You're wrong" underpinning does not do any > one any good. > Please do not take offense Peter or David, I am simply using this specific > group of communications to point to a much more generalized observation of > past personality conflicts. > > In my opinion, these lists contain the creme' de la creme' of modern day > Theosophists. There is no lack of power or focus to perceive the > real value > underlying any Theosophical theme. So I would like to offer this > possibility. > > Whenever our status quo appears challenged, let the investigator > go where he > is going. Let us wait until he has concluded his findings. His > real motives > and intents will be reflected therein, not in his investigatory > personality. > If he has uncovered a thing of value, we are all benefited by it. > If not, is > there anyone here who doubts the capacity of certain members to show the > investigator the error of his ways? > > We get to the conclusions and their resolutions, when necessary, > quicker, when > we do not complicate things by overstating the details of the journey. > > I apologize in advance for any ruffled feathers. This is just one person's > opinion. > > Louis > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 13:16:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA17583 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:06:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <000201be6bf2$2c96f1a0$d78306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Slander Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:20:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >This way we avoid endless argument over truth or falsity. Whenever we >start to make derogatory remarks about another person, living or dead, >true or false, if those remarks have the potential to inspire animosity >in a reader, then they are slanderous and should be avoided. > >Jerry S. If this is true, then we have to stop printing and spreading the works of H.P. Blavatsky, because some scientists and missionaries could have bad feelings reading her. Furthermore then the books of William Judge should not spread any more, because a reader once wrote to his Theosophical Forum she feeling disharmony, when she read his articles. No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only the right, but it is the duty for every true Theosophits, for every student of the pukka Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - the more when there are sideways and traps or even lies which are smuggled into the Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her teachers. No one is free of the risk to get critisized, if it seems he/she is wrong doing, no matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be an incarnated god beyond any critisism. And of course not even a person, who describes himself a "leader" can be protected from this occult rule. OTOH it is also true, that every Theosophist has the duty to do it as much unpersonally as posssible and working for cooperation and harmony - UNLESS THERE ARE OCCULT REASONS. The theos. history gives us many examples for this, i.e. when HPB was kicked off from Adyar or when she protested against the destructive actions of President Olcott and refused his many slanders on her. Another example is the so-called "Judge" case of 1895 when he stood so firm for the true Theosophy. Or take the exactly repeat of that scene 50 years later with other "actors" on the scene, this time in Point Loma-Covina. Of course it seems to be the deepest wish of some theos. organizations to nip in the bud any research which they to not which on behalf of their sectarian interests, but no we have the internet and at present we begin an era, were everyone has success to so much sources never seen before in the 120 years before. Considering all this, hereby receive my PROTEST. Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 13:31:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA19191 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:17:01 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: "Original Teachings of theosophy" - why perpetuate them ? Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:15:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000601be6bfb$da055b20$ad0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 11th 1999 Dear Jerry: Your post on "slander" and provocation is a fine one. What an excellent definition - and in line with harmlessness and brotherhood. As to my contention that there is merit in perpetuating the "original message." Let me offer you an example elsewhere. Now what I am going to say is not an "attack" on the Teachings of Jesus, but, if anything I am taking up the practice of some of the branches of Christianity and asking the following questions. [ I could do this easily with Hinduism, or Buddhism, or any groups in the world where a "religion" has been built up around the words and teachings of a reformer and made a barrier between the people and their "savior." And those saviors, may be Buddha, Lao-Tse, Muhammad, Jesus, or anyone that one believes represents a high moral Leader. ] I note how much of a scramble is on nowadays among biblical Scholars to find the original sources of the BIBLE and Hebrew and Gnostic texts. Careful translations and comparison with contemporary texts show that there have been a series of alterations made in expressing the original teachings. Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are now being show up in many areas. The effort to restore and purify the text that are given to the people have produced a flood of literature and new translations. Yet, the "Gideon Bible" of the King James version" can be found in the bedside drawer of most hotels and motels. I have noted in some cases that something on Buddhism has been also placed thee, but, why not on Islam, Confucianism, Zen, theosophy etc. ... ? I also find that attempts to review and revise ancient texts from India, Tibet, Mongolia, China, Persia, etc., are in process but that the Christian overlay that rules our "Western" scholarship seems to stifle them somewhat. There is excellent work being done to correlate and codify the texts by many and Richard Taylor among those who are also students of theosophy, has been doing this work so well, as an example. Peter Marriott just posted a note explaining how the variations in transliterating oriental words and adjusting them to pronunciations using Latin letters, occurred historically. This helps us all. Back to my example using Christianity as an example of Church teaching vs. Jesus' teachings. They find after almost 2,000 years that they need those for accuracy. At least the scholars do. The average person is willing to let the minister, priest, etc. do the interpreting for them. How many can say anything about the sermon in say 15 minutes after it is over ? Are the parishioners being taught to think about the teachings given there? What happens to parishioners who have a sense of right, and who questions seriously some of the practices and doctrines or dogmas of their church ? How are the teachings being applied in every-day life ? do they give respect and regard for others' religions and teach tolerance, or are they intolerant of other religions, and if so why ? in our age, those who inquire broadly, have found that the same code of ethics prevails and is taught in each religion perhaps in slightly different words. But the key and basic ideas and recommendation for practice seem to derive from the one fundamental: Brotherhood. "Do unto others, as thou would'st have them do unto you." So, in all this diversity who wins ? Where is one to place one's faith? Should one uninquiringly accept a belief in the sense of a set of teachings. It is the illogical and unethical applications and the gaps in logic that have ended up in putting upright people on the thinking seat. If they find that their Church teaches something else than the prophet in applications, and no sense is to be made for the change, then maybe they go to the scholars, or to theosophy if they hear of it, and, they will find in both cases that they are asked to think out who they are and what they can do. That usually makes Theosophy appear "cold and unpopular." It also speaks of ethics as something you can reason out for yourself. Very few priests or ministers will take to that well, as their purpose and authority has to change. They tend to discourage the person from becoming "a priest unto himself." If no one pays for the priest's services, then where and how will he find work ? Theosophical philosophy takes the idea of universal SPIRIT, and of a Universal omnipresent GOD, and states for that reason, man's soul is a part of IT and is therefore immortal. It (immortality) is not something one can gain be adhering to a faith or observing rituals. It also speaks of the OMNISCIENCE of GOD. The all-knowingness not only comes from universality and universal awareness, but because GOD's LAWS are self administering and self-adjusting. There is no "remission of sins." And logically everyone is responsible for their choices. God does not, and cannot play favorites at the expense of all the rest of the universe and conserve his/its integrity. And if the evidence of "miracles" is advanced, Theosophical knowledge about the operation of the secret side of nature and the laws that operate there quickly provides an answer. Many such answers are to be found in ISIS UNVEILED, and THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Also in many of the articles that HPB wrote. They have to be looked for and catalogued. But they are there. And if one adds to that OMNIPOTENCE, then Man being a portion of God, can, by his own self-determined efforts and aims, raise himself to know all that GOD already knows. And why should God be worried. If it is a personal God it/he/she will welcome the help. Thus the burden of administration is spread among thousands and millions of willing helpers. If one accepts as a hang-over from Judaism the idea of Jehovah (the angry, wrathful, whimsical, God that enjoys torturing its subjects for no reason). I ask you what kind of a God is it that allows the phrase "Lead me not into temptation..." -- as though a God that the poor, weak, defenseless, women, little children and the oppressed trust and honor, would do, or allow that ! ] It is not Christianity alone that has turned the teachings of moral equity advocated by the gentle reformed Jesus into a mockery but also the responsibility of all who have allowed that to happen. And, it is the same if every religion that has been formalized and in which a priesthood has gown to claim intermediacy between man and God. Show the people that the closest place to GOD is in their own Heart, and a great light will dawn and the mind be turned to self-control and self-reform. Apply this now to the statements made by any of the "followers" an "successors" of HPB who write or try to interpret Theosophy and please include myself). Everyone of those writers has a view-point (so do I). It may be a very good one, or it may be flawed. How does one determine the value of someone's words? By the mind-held touchstone of universality. Is what is said true at all times, in all places and for all persons, or is it only limited in its accuracy and partially applied. The search for TRUTH demands universality, impersonality, and impartiality. It has to stand up to the test of logic, of reason and be capable of applications in a way which harms no one. Compare the statements made with those of HPB. Then you can and anyone can decide for themselves which through the greatest light on any subject considered. All writers will shed some light and also appeal to a certain group of people, but the question is more of universality than of personal or group preference. I think this is enough to expose my views so you can understand them. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 7:51 AM Subject: Theos-World Response to Dallas <> Dallas, I understand your feeling here, but there is another side to it. It is vitally important to keep the Teachings alive. If we just keep the original writings and work only from them, we will soon have a dead letter. Someone recently posted a long quote from G de Purucker to the effect that words alone will reduce the TSs to just another religion, and that it is necessary to keep the spirit of the Teachings alive. This is done primarily by living the words, but also by communicating them in newer words. Truth has to be re-clothed in new expressions or it dies. I have yet to hear you give examples as to how the original message is "diverted" or abused by later writers, although I would agree that CWL tended to Christianize Theosophy, which is not good. What other writers do you think have adversely "filtered" the original message? de Purucker? Just curious. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 14:01:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA21492 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:37:47 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: Is the TS on Autopilot? == All gliders eventually land or crash ! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:35:55 -0800 Message-ID: <000801be6bfe$c4054ee0$ad0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199903111552.JAA25867@pippin.imagiware.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 11th 1999 Who said that our lives would be easy ? But if we do have to work, let us do so constructively. Can we find where and how ? Why not look on the TS and the theosophical world as being dynamic. We are waiting for what ? Someone to do our work for us ? Why? Look at the 3 OBJECTS do they way "wait" or "work" ? The T S was established so people would have an unfettered, non-dogmatic forum for concentrated work - it offers no "pathway to heaven " to members. It offers an opportunity to study and work together. ABOVE ALL IT SPEAKS OF "brotherhood" AND OF THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH. And that means we have to work for it. If we neglect that then we "fail" in assisting the Masters in their work of seeing that theosophy is spread about in the world. We loose an opportunity for advancement, and the world is left somewhat drearier. Hope this is of help. Dallas ============== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 8:26 AM Subject: Theos-World Is the TS on Autopilot? >>Is TS on autopilot with the purely mechanical job publishing the works written in early days, the copyrights to all of them having expired is now in public domain. Any ideas? mkr>> I think that the TSs are in pretty much the same position as the early Christian church. The church was on auto-pilot waiting for the Second Coming. The TSs await the return of HPB's next incarnation. In both cases there is the very real problem of possibly not recognizing the founder's return when, and if, it does happen. I think it quite possible that Jesus and HPB could both reincarnate and not be recognized or accepted by their respective organizations. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 14:16:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA24469 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:03:33 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:01:13 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Are Ethics Essential for Progress? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/11/99 11:28:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << My own personal opinion here, which culminates from years of experience and study, is that compassion is essential for occult progress--not ethics >> Interesting Idea, Compassion without ethics! I wouldn't have thought such a thing would be possible. If one actually experiences compassion, rather than intellectualize it, is it reasonable to expect unethical behavior to flow from that experience? Hmmmmm. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 14:32:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA26067 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:16:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Are Ethics Essential for Progress? Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:14:53 -0800 Message-ID: <000101be6c04$35215b00$2e0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199903111552.JAA25861@pippin.imagiware.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 11th 1999 Dear Gerry: All I can say is that to me the knowledge and the use of any extraordinary power ought to be tempered by its use for ones-self or its use for others. If it can be used harmlessly and safely in brotherhood and when necessity dictates that another needs it, then only could and can it be used. As I understand it, these things are karmically very powerful. Any abuse draws terrible karmic effects on the practitioner. If one does not know of that then it is better to avoid. Dal =================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 8:11 AM Subject: Theos-World Are Ethics Essential for Progress? >>So if anyone desires to make progress in either esoteric or occult matters they have to make an equal and even far more basic ethical change in their outlook. I think it is for this reason that the First Object of the T S was BROTHERHOOD. << In essence, Dallas, I agree with you here. However, my main problem when it comes to ethics, is that they should not be forced. Like psychic powers, they should develop naturally. A very important spiritual quality is spontenaiety which never develops when ethics are forced. My own personal opinion here, which culminates from years of experience and study, is that compassion is essential for occult progress--not ethics, which should be allowed to develop naturally as one becomes more compassionate. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 14:47:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA26048 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:16:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Is the SD Essential for Occult Progress? Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:14:44 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be6c04$30380800$2e0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199903111552.JAA25839@pippin.imagiware.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 11th 1999 Dear Gerry: As far as I can see the Teachings about the ROUNDS, GLOBES, RACES, etc. resulted from the inquiries that Mr. Sinnett made of the Master during the course of their correspondence and this concept was shown to him as a result of the fact that the evolutionary hypothesis as then formulated was sadly in error. It did not account for the cycle of civilization. Nor did it account for the fact that the Egyptian (and other) antiquities and artifacts showed a knowledge in use which Europe and the "western technology" had not yet reached. Only the Puranas in Indian lore dealt with anything approaching this concept and these had to be explained at length, as HPB did in the S D. Is this of value for Occultists ? I say it depends on what you mean by "occultism." Any thin that I do not know now is "occult" or "esoteric" to me. But that does not mean I cannot acquire the necessary information for making choices and practice. There is a large and hazy area of confusion concerning the area which in Theosophy is called the Astral, and the Pranic. But the only way t find out if Theosophy provides useful information is for a person to read its literature (which by now is pretty well Indexed) and seek for information there. Many people expect to get something for nothing, or else may expect to pay a fee for information, or even stranger expect to be given some secret word or a drawn symbol that they can use to achieve some personal design. In true occultism this does not work very well. There are minor "mysteries" and powers that can be contacted. Channeling, clairvoyance, clairaudience, apportation, mediumship, trance reports, phenomena of various kinds are evidence that there is more to the hidden side of man's nature than the mere physical gives us evidence for. Curiosity drives some to investigate. The 3rd Object of the T S suggests that we accumulate evidence. It does not say "practice." HPB was doing to write a volume in the SD on "Practical occultism." Apparently her body gave out before this could be done. And perhaps this was good for us, as I tremble to think of what abuses such knowledge could be put to by selfish individuals. So, let's forget the ROUNDS AND RACES although they form part of the overall lore of theosophical information. As I understand it one of the keys to understanding the nature of these mysterious GLOBES is to look at SD I 267, at the bottom of the page she indicates the nature of the difference influences that govern the 7 panes/globes. SD I 166 offers the best clue (to me) where they speak of "they are in co-adunition, but not in consubstantiality with our earth." SD I 329-330, 339-40, II-701-2 also relates to this. I hope this might help. Dal ========================= -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 8:04 AM Subject: Theos-World Is the SD Essential for Occult Progress? >>If one desires to make any progress into the study of occultism then the principles set out in greater detail in the SD will be needed. They are basic and will be found used in the whole scheme without any deviation. I mean Karma, Unity of All in ALL, Evolution of the imperishable Monads, Mind is Soul, and this is Mankind, the 7 principles of the universe and man, the Rounds, Globes, Races, etc... as Cycles in time, etc., etc.<< Dallas, I agree that the three axioms discussed in the Proem are essential for any real progress. But the vast majority of today's occultists do not subscribe to the races, rounds, globes, planetary chains, and so on (what I have called the Gupta Vidya Model, since HPB never gave it a name) as detailed in the SD. Yet somehow they seem to have made "progress into the study of occultism" anyway. In fact, few Theosophists subscribe to the planetary chain model, (which I consider a shame, because I really like it) and even fewer seem to agree on what the globes and planes are (for example, I believe that they are similar to the Sephiroth and can be pathworked). While I applaud your reverence to the SD, I don't think that we can agree that her globes and rounds are essential in any way for occult progress. I prefer to think of them as a model, one of many good models that can help our limited human minds to grasp what is essentially ungraspable--the invisible worlds that surround our physical solar system. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 11 15:31:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA00572 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:20:31 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: Theos-World Slander: some thoughts from HPB Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:18:54 -0000 Message-ID: <000301be6c04$c466e820$ac5795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000201be6bf2$2c96f1a0$d78306d4@g2l4g2> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Frank, You wrote: > If this is true, then we have to stop printing and spreading the works of > H.P. Blavatsky... Yes, indeed. I was just thinking this very thing. But I like what Jerry posted. I think it makes for a lot of food for thought. Very sobering, in fact. > No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only the right, but > it is the duty for every true Theosophits, for every student of the pukka > Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - the more when > there are sideways and traps or even lies which are smuggled into the > Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her > teachers. I heartily agree. > No one is > free of the risk to get critisized, if it seems he/she is wrong doing, no > matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be an > incarnated god beyond any critisism. And of course not even a person, who > describes himself a "leader" can be protected from this occult rule. Here are a few thoughts below - for all of us to reflect on - from HPB, taken from The Key to Theosophy: Section 12. Best wishes: Peter ENQUIRER. May I be told what are these perilous reefs in the open sea of Theosophy? THEOSOPHIST. Well may you call them reefs, as more than one otherwise sincere and well-meaning F.T.S. has had his Theosophical canoe shattered into splinters on them! And yet to avoid certain things seems the easiest thing in the world to do. For instance, here is a series of such negatives, screening positive Theosophical duties: -- No Theosophist should be silent when he hears evil reports or slanders spread about the Society, or innocent persons, whether they be his colleagues or outsiders. ENQUIRER. But suppose what one hears is the truth, or may be true without one knowing it? THEOSOPHIST. Then you must demand good proofs of the assertion, and hear both sides impartially before you permit the accusation to go uncontradicted. You have no right to believe in evil, until you get undeniable proof of the correctness of the statement. ENQUIRER. And what should you do then? THEOSOPHIST. Pity and forbearance, charity and long-suffering, ought to be always there to prompt us to excuse our sinning brethren, and to pass the gentlest sentence possible upon those who err. A Theosophist ought never to forget what is due to the shortcomings and infirmities of human nature. ENQUIRER. Ought he to forgive entirely in such cases? THEOSOPHIST. In every case, especially he who is sinned against. ENQUIRER. But if by so doing, he risks to injure, or allow others to be injured? What ought he to do then? THEOSOPHIST. His duty; that which his conscience and higher nature suggests to him; but only after mature deliberation. Justice consists in doing no injury to any living being; but justice commands us also never to allow injury to be done to the many, or even to one innocent person, by allowing the guilty one to go unchecked. *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ENQUIRER. And what may be the duty of a Theosophist to himself? THEOSOPHIST. To control and conquer, through the Higher, the lower self. To purify himself inwardly and morally; to fear no one, and nought, save the tribunal of his own conscience. Never to do a thing by halves; i. e., if he thinks it the right thing to do, let him do it openly and boldly, and if wrong, never touch it at all. It is the duty of a Theosophist to lighten his burden by thinking of the wise aphorism of Epictetus, who says: "Be not diverted from your duty by any idle reflection the silly world may make upon you, for their censures are not in your power, and consequently should not be any part of your concern." -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 07:16:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA08664 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:11:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <002901be6c87$d1f483c0$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:56:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE6C5D.E8198EE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE6C5D.E8198EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only the right, = but it is the duty for every true Theosophits, for every student of the = pukka Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - the more = when there are sideways and traps or even lies which are smuggled into the Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her teachers. No = one is free of the risk to get critisized, if it seems he/she is wrong doing, = no matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be an incarnated god beyond any critisism. >> Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are fragmented tdoay, and will probably die out in the future. While you certainly have the right to think this way, it is completely against the turn-the-other-cheek policy of real Adepts and of what HPB herself tried to inspire in her followers. You are, like so many others, projecting your own narrow sense of truth and "lies" onto others.=20 Ah well... Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE6C5D.E8198EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only = the=20 right, but
it is the duty for every true Theosophits, for every = student of=20 the pukka
Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - = the=20 more when
there are sideways and traps or even lies which are = smuggled into=20 the
Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her = teachers. No one=20 is
free of the risk to get critisized, if it seems he/she is wrong = doing,=20 no
matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be=20 an
incarnated god beyond any critisism. >>
 
Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are = fragmented
tdoay, and will probably die out in the future.  While you=20 certainly
have the right to think this way, it is completely against = the
turn-the-other-cheek policy of real Adepts and of what HPB = herself
tried to inspire in her followers. You are, like so many = others,
projecting your own narrow sense of truth and "lies" onto = others.=20
Ah well...
 
Jerry S.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE6C5D.E8198EE0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 07:31:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA09742 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:26:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <003101be6c89$e60291c0$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Remission of Sins Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:11:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE6C5F.FC7D0FE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE6C5F.FC7D0FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are=20 now being show up in many areas. > While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize that "perversions" is a subjective call. I personally think that the attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but this is just my own opinion because other people like it. >There is no "remission of sins." And logically everyone is responsible for their choices. > We have discussed this before, and again we can only agree to disagree here. There is absolutely no way I am prepared to believe your first statement because if true then liberation (mukti) would be impossible. I can only accept Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or consumption of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a=20 possibility. If "sins" can not go into "remission" when seen as dualisitic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied that our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless lifetimes can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single heartbeat. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE6C5F.FC7D0FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are =
now being show up in many areas.  >
 
While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize = that
"perversions" is a subjective call. I personally think = that=20 the
attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but this
is just my own opinion because other people like it.
 
 
>There is no "remission of sins."  And logically = everyone=20 is
responsible for their choices.  >
 
We have discussed = this before, and=20 again we can only
agree = to disagree=20 here. There is absolutely no way I am
prepared to believe your first statement because if true then
liberation (mukti) would be impossible.  I can only = accept
Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or consumption
of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a
possibility. If "sins" can not go into = "remission" when=20 seen
as dualisitic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's
fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied that
our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless=20 lifetimes
can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single heartbeat.
 
Jerry S.
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE6C5F.FC7D0FE0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 07:49:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA10920 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:38:17 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <004101be6c8b$8c76c340$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World A Mockery of Ethics Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:23:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE6C61.A3020A40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE6C61.A3020A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Dallas]>>It is not Christianity alone that has turned the teachings of moral equity advocated by the gentle reformed Jesus into a mockery but also the responsibility of all who have allowed that to happen.<< =20 The same has happened, and is happening today, in Theosophy. Whenever a Theosophist points fingers at other Theosophists and calls them liars and worse, then we have the same "mockery" going on. The result has been the fragmentation of HPB's TS, and it looks to me that the future is not going to look any better. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE6C61.A3020A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
[Dallas]>>It is not Christianity alone that has turned the = teachings=20 of
moral equity advocated by the gentle reformed Jesus into = a
mockery but=20 also the responsibility of all who have allowed that
to = happen.<< =20
 
The same has happened, and is happening = today, in=20 Theosophy.
Whenever a Theosophist points fingers at = other=20 Theosophists
and calls them liars and worse, then we have = the same=20 "mockery"
going on.  The result has been the = fragmentation=20 of HPB's TS,
and it looks to me that the future is not = going to look=20 any better.
 
Jerry = S.
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE6C61.A3020A40-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 07:54:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA10375 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:33:24 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <003901be6c8a$dd726160$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World God, Angels, and Dhyani-Chohans Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:18:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE6C60.F3ECDF80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE6C60.F3ECDF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>[Dallas]If one accepts as a hang-over from Judaism the idea of=20 Jehovah (the angry, wrathful, whimsical, God that enjoys torturing its subjects for no reason). I ask you what kind of a God is it that allows the phrase "Lead me not into temptation..." -- as though a God that the poor, weak, defenseless, women, little children and the oppressed trust and honor, would do, or allow that ! ]>> Good question, and one that Jung has already answered. Such a God is our own psychological projection or anthropomorhism. We all make these kinds of projections, seeing humanity in non-human things/beings. Magicans do this with Angels. I=20 suspect that Theosophists do the same thing with=20 Dhyani-Chohans and the like. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE6C60.F3ECDF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>[Dallas]If one accepts as a hang-over from Judaism the idea = of=20
Jehovah (the angry, wrathful, whimsical, God that enjoys torturing=20 its
subjects for no reason). I ask you what kind of a God is it=20 that
allows the phrase "Lead me not into temptation..." -- = as=20 though a
God that the poor, weak, defenseless, women, little children = and
the oppressed trust and honor, would do, or allow that ! = ]>>
 
Good question, and one that Jung has already answered. Such
a God is our own psychological projection or anthropomorhism.
We all make these kinds of projections, seeing humanity in
non-human things/beings.  Magicans do this with Angels.  = I
suspect that Theosophists do the same thing with
Dhyani-Chohans and the like.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE6C60.F3ECDF80-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 09:16:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA22353 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:12:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <62504670.36e92e3d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:09:49 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/12/99 8:16:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, gschueler@netgsi.com writes: << Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are fragmented tdoay, and will probably die out in the future. >> Jerry, I would go further and say that it ought to. I want to make it very clear that I am referring to ORGANIZATIONAL Theosophy only. CONCEPTUAL Theosophy will never die. It was alive and well before HPB, I give you the American Transcendentalists of the 1830s -1860s as just one example. It is alive and well after HPB, I give you Cyber Theosophy and these lists. In fact, HPB' major gift to us was her brilliant displays of Conceptual Theosophy. It was left to others to develop the organizational entities. In my opinion, those entities have not been properly nourished and now many are sick and dying. We need to let them go. Theosophical Essence, will remain. It cannot be destroyed. No truth can. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 16:11:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA00936 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:58:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:56:09 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01be6cdb$871090c0$880e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6C98.769297E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002901be6c87$d1f483c0$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6C98.769297E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mar 12th Dear Jerry and Frank: I have been reading your postings, and somehow Jerry, I did not get that out of Frank's posting. Agreed that the T S is a free forum and has no dogmas. Therefore anyone's ideas or questions can be asked. But: Why should anyone then call another to question for those? They are either answered or not. I could observe that we all have strong opinions. If we are going to try to learn from each other then we ought to ask such questions as "draws the other fellow out, so that the real meaning is made clear." We would not be involved in Theosophy if we did not have great independence. We also have the ability to think and seek to understand each other. As to one thing that is quite clear to me: THEOSOPHY is quite different from the work and organization of any T S. The various "theosophical bodies" only exist for the convenience of those who are seeking to find more of the truths and facts of our World and Universe. They are not sectarian, nor can they exercise any persuasive force on their members. If their by-laws seem to say this, then the members still do as they please and to please their own conscience first of all. There can be no compulsion in a philosophical system that posits the independence and freedom of Mind in every Human. And then logically demonstrates that this has to be so. It is also quite true that we have various ways of asking or doing this. But the questions ought to be considered. If there are obviously several ways to go, then, does it not help to show the probable results of adopting one or another, or all ? I think that is helpful, and also would be "theosophical." No one ought to "demand" anything. Asking is quite different from attributing motives to another, and leaves the respondent free to answer or remain quiet for whatever reason. How can any one of us presume to interpret the "policy" of either the Adepts or of HPB ? We can study their recorded writings (avoiding the commentaries and qualifications of interpreters) so that we can make up our own minds. And I think that is self-growth. I find many instances in HPB's articles and her writings and those of the Adepts which are available for us to read, that their policies are clear, and they welcome any sincere and honest approach or question. In a way we can say that all of us, whatever we may think or are, are their pupils at some level or another of progress. And the level of that "progress" is always self-determined, each by and for themselves. So let us leave the way open to the Adepts to do what they do best -- a quiet and strong influence that pervades all sincere students and inquirers wherever they may be. I would not presume to tell another how to think or act, nor would I give an exclusive opinion. HPB time and again, offers principles and recommends that we investigate them and adopt them if they suit us. Any conclusion we may arrive at depends on the history and nature of the inquiry and the enquirer. I would hold that to be important for all of us. If the TSs "fall apart" it is due to the waywardness of the "members," not to the PHILOSOPHY which remains undisturbed. But, by impairing the work of other "members" may we not be transferring our attention from the ACTUAL STUDY OF THE PHILOSOPHY to side-issues of personalities and an attempt to assign to them motives and purposes which we are not directly concerned with. How does any body of students work? Are there not always the "few enthusiasts" who shoulder much of the organizational work -- which others are glad to be relieved of ? In so doing, do not the members (who do little or nothing) either accept the limits or the broad frontiers of the mental capacity of those "doers." If the "do-nothings" launch protests one might legitimately ask why have they waited so long to pay strict attention to the business of being a member? I say this not to daunt any such inquiry, but rather to observe that: "The price of Freedom, is Eternal Vigilance." If one looks around at the course of various "religions" (the 'joiner-together' groups-- as "re-ligiere" in Latin means to "bind" or "tie together") as the years roll by, one can see this unfolding as the do-nothings are usually made the eventual victims of the personal schemes of the "doers." Occasionally a rebellion starts, around some valiant figure who demands that the ancient and universal principles of truth and equity be freely applied. Jesus, who came to "minister to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel" was one such. Paul then took those treasured ethical injunctions and showed how even the Gentiles could apply and use them. Later it took Bishops such as Eusebius, and Tertullian to make the free churches into a dogmatic group and of the freedom to think into the rigidity of a credo -- a faith, the transgression of which brought torture, repression, compulsion, coercion an death. What is past is past. We cannot undo that. If documents exist, then their reading gives an inkling of the decision that a person has reached. It says little about the debates that may have preceded that. What subsequent actions may have been taken are the responsibility of the recipient of such decisions, and so on and on. In my opinion the T Ses do themselves no good in focusing on pleasing personalities. If you are able to compare the contents of the early magazines like LUCIFER, THEOSOPHIST, PATH for the period between 1879 and 1895 -- compare those writings with the quality of current contributions to the currently published magazines such as the THEOSOPHIST, Adyar; QUEST, Wheaton; CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST, Toronto; ENGLISH THEOSOPHIST, London; INDIAN THEOSOPHIST, Benares; NEW ZEALAND THEOSOPHIST, New Zealand; AUSTRALIAN THEOSOPHIST, Australia; THEOSOPHY magazine, Los Angeles; FOHAT, Edmonton; THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT monthly, Bombay; the HIGH-COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, Boulder; PRTOGONUS, THEOSOPHY WORLD, Los Angeles, SUNRISE, Pasadena, DE THEOSOOF, The Hague; LA THEOSOPHIE, Paris, etc., -- the comparison is interesting and each shows where the present focus is and where the current general interest of students and members lies. Add to this set of comparisons the quality and nature of the INTERNET postings in which many practice their editorship by sending observations, questions, criticism and answers -- which all can see, almost daily, at "theos-talk;" Theos-World, theos-l; blavatsky.net SD Study Group, etc. -- the comparisons are very interesting to study. It is also clear that everyone is quite free to join/not join, contribute/remain silent, question/answer, criticize, encourage, and, sometimes protest. In any case we all are living and growing together and the eventual minor discordance smoothed out and we all profit. I am venting some of my own views and really have no one in particular in mind. I did think, Jerry, that you were a little too strong in characterizing Frank. But I am also sticking my "oar" into your waters and perhaps I should now "shut up." Best wishes, Dallas Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:57 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart >>No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only the right, but it is the duty for every true Theosophist, for every student of the pukka Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - the more when there are sideways and traps or even lies which are smuggled into the Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her teachers. No one is free of the risk to get criticized, if it seems he/she is wrong doing, no matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be an incarnated god beyond any criticism. >> Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are fragmented today, and will probably die out in the future. While you certainly have the right to think this way, it is completely against the turn-the-other-cheek policy of real Adepts and of what HPB herself tried to inspire in her followers. You are, like so many others, projecting your own narrow sense of truth and "lies" onto others. Ah well... Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6C98.769297E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar=20 12th
 
Dear=20 Jerry and Frank:
 
I have=20 been reading your postings, and somehow Jerry, I=20 did not get that out of Frank's posting.
 
Agreed=20 that the T S is a free forum and has no dogmas.  Therefore anyone's = ideas=20 or questions can be asked.  But: Why should anyone=20 then call another to question for those?  They are either answered = or=20 not.
 
I could=20 observe that we all have strong opinions.  If we are going to try = to learn=20 from each other then we ought to ask such questions as "draws the = other=20 fellow out, so that the real meaning is made clear."  We would = not be=20 involved in Theosophy if we did not have great = independence.
We also have the ability to think and seek to = understand each=20 other.
 
As to=20 one thing that is quite clear to me:  THEOSOPHY is quite=20 different from the work and organization of any T S.
 
The=20 various "theosophical bodies" only exist for the convenience = of those=20 who are seeking to find more of the truths and facts of our World and=20 Universe.  They are not sectarian, nor can they exercise any = persuasive=20 force on their members.  If their by-laws seem to say this, then = the=20 members still do as they please and to please their own conscience first = of all.=20 There can be no compulsion in a philosophical system that posits the=20 independence and freedom of Mind in every Human.  And then = logically=20 demonstrates that this has to be so.
 
It is=20 also quite true that we have various ways of asking or doing this.  = But the=20 questions ought to be considered.  If there are obviously several = ways to=20 go, then, does it not help to show the probable results of adopting one = or=20 another, or all ?  I think that is helpful, and also would be=20 "theosophical."  No one ought to "demand"=20 anything.  Asking is quite different from attributing motives to = another,=20 and leaves the respondent free to answer or remain quiet for whatever=20 reason.
 
How can=20 any one of us presume to interpret the "policy" of either the = Adepts=20 or of HPB ?
We can=20 study their recorded writings (avoiding the commentaries and = qualifications of=20 interpreters) so that we can make up our own minds.  And I think = that is=20 self-growth.
 
I find=20 many instances in HPB's articles and her writings and those of the = Adepts which=20 are available for us to read, that their policies are clear, and they = welcome=20 any sincere and honest approach or question.  In a way we can say = that all=20 of us, whatever we may think or are, are their pupils at some level or = another=20 of progress.  And the level of that "progress" is always=20 self-determined, each by and for themselves.
 
So let us leave the way open to the = Adepts to do what they do best -- a quiet and = strong=20 influence that pervades all sincere students and inquirers = wherever they may=20 be.  I would not presume to tell another=20 how to think or act, nor would I give an exclusive opinion.  HPB time=20 and again, offers principles and recommends that we investigate them and = adopt=20 them if they suit us.
 
Any conclusion we may arrive at = depends on the=20 history and nature of the inquiry and the enquirer.
 
I would hold that to be important = for all of=20 us.
 
If the TSs "fall apart" it = is due to=20 the waywardness of the "members," not to the PHILOSOPHY which = remains=20 undisturbed.  But, by impairing the work of other = "members" may=20 we not be transferring our attention from the ACTUAL STUDY OF THE PHILOSOPHY to side-issues of=20 personalities and an attempt to assign to them motives and purposes = which we are=20 not directly concerned with. 
 
How=20 does any body of students work?  Are there not always the "few = enthusiasts" who shoulder much of the organizational work -- which = others=20 are glad to be relieved of ?  In so doing, do not the members (who = do=20 little or nothing) either accept the limits or the broad frontiers of = the mental=20 capacity of those "doers."  If the = "do-nothings" launch=20 protests one might legitimately ask why have they waited so long to pay = strict=20 attention to the business of being a member?  I say this not to = daunt any=20 such inquiry, but rather to observe that:  "The price of = Freedom, is=20 Eternal Vigilance." 
 
If one=20 looks around at the course of various "religions"  (the=20 'joiner-together' groups-- as "re-ligiere" in Latin means to=20 "bind" or "tie together") as the years roll by, one = can see=20 this unfolding as the do-nothings are usually made the eventual victims = of the=20 personal schemes of the "doers."  Occasionally a = rebellion=20 starts, around some valiant figure who demands that the ancient and = universal=20 principles of truth and equity be freely applied.  Jesus, who came = to=20 "minister to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel" was one=20 such.  Paul then took those treasured ethical injunctions and = showed how=20 even the Gentiles could apply and use them. Later it took Bishops such = as=20 Eusebius, and Tertullian to make the free churches into a dogmatic group = and of=20 the freedom to think into the rigidity of a credo -- a faith, the = transgression=20 of which brought torture, repression, compulsion, coercion  an=20 death.
 
What is past is past.  We = cannot undo=20 that.  If documents exist, then their reading gives an inkling of = the=20 decision that a person has reached.  It says little about the = debates that=20 may have preceded that.  What subsequent actions may have been = taken are the=20 responsibility of the recipient of such decisions, and so on and=20 on.
 
In my=20 opinion the T Ses do themselves no good in focusing on pleasing=20 personalities.  If you are able to compare the contents of the = early=20 magazines like LUCIFER, THEOSOPHIST, PATH for the period between 1879 = and 1895=20 -- compare those writings with the quality of current contributions to = the=20 currently published magazines such as the THEOSOPHIST, Adyar;  = QUEST,=20 Wheaton;  CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST, Toronto;  ENGLISH THEOSOPHIST, = London;=20 INDIAN THEOSOPHIST, Benares; NEW ZEALAND THEOSOPHIST, New = Zealand; =20 AUSTRALIAN THEOSOPHIST, Australia;  THEOSOPHY magazine, Los = Angeles; =20 FOHAT, Edmonton; THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT monthly, Bombay; the = HIGH-COUNTRY=20 THEOSOPHIST, Boulder;  PRTOGONUS,  THEOSOPHY WORLD,  Los=20 Angeles,  SUNRISE, Pasadena, DE THEOSOOF, The Hague;  LA = THEOSOPHIE,=20 Paris, etc., -- the comparison is interesting and each shows where the = present=20 focus is and where the current general interest of students and members=20 lies. 
 
Add to=20 this set of comparisons the quality and nature of the INTERNET postings = in which=20 many practice their editorship by sending observations, questions, = criticism and=20 answers -- which all can see, almost daily, at = "theos-talk;" =20 Theos-World,  theos-l; blavatsky.net SD Study Group, etc. -- the=20 comparisons are very interesting to study. 
 
It is=20 also clear that everyone is quite free to join/not join, = contribute/remain=20 silent, question/answer, criticize, encourage, and, sometimes=20 protest.
 
In any=20 case we all are living and growing together and the eventual minor = discordance=20 smoothed out and we all profit.
 
I am=20 venting some of my own views and really have no one in particular in = mind. =20 I did think, Jerry, that you were a little too strong in characterizing=20 Frank.  But I am also sticking my "oar" into your waters = and=20 perhaps I should now "shut up."
 
Best wishes,
 
Dallas
          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:57 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling=20 Apart

>>No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only = the=20 right, but
it is the duty for every true Theosophist, for every = student of=20 the pukka
Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - = the=20 more when
there are sideways and traps or even lies which are = smuggled into=20 the
Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her = teachers. No one=20 is
free of the risk to get criticized, if it seems he/she is wrong = doing,=20 no
matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be=20 an
incarnated god beyond any criticism. >>
 
Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are = fragmented
today, and will probably die out in the future.  While you=20 certainly
have the right to think this way, it is completely against = the
turn-the-other-cheek policy of real Adepts and of what HPB = herself
tried to inspire in her followers. You are, like so many = others,
projecting your own narrow sense of truth and "lies" onto = others.=20
Ah well...
 
Jerry S.
 
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6C98.769297E0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 16:26:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA03022 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:19:15 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World God, Angels, and Dhyani-Chohans Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:17:15 -0800 Message-ID: <001801be6cde$7752b0c0$880e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE6C9B.692F70C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003901be6c8a$dd726160$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE6C9B.692F70C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAR 12 DEAR JERRY AGAIN I PUT IN SOME NOTES BELOW IN CAPS. DAL ====================== Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 5:19 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World God, Angels, and Dhyani-Chohans >>[Dallas]If one accepts as a hang-over from Judaism the idea of Jehovah (the angry, wrathful, whimsical, God that enjoys torturing its subjects for no reason). I ask you what kind of a God is it that allows the phrase "Lead me not into temptation..." -- as though a God that the poor, weak, defenseless, women, little children and the oppressed trust and honor, would do, or allow that ! ]>> Good question, and one that Jung has already answered. Such a God is our own psychological projection or anthropomorphism. We all make these kinds of projections, seeing humanity in non-human things/beings. Magicians do this with Angels. I suspect that Theosophists do the same thing with Dhyani-Chohans and the like. DALLAS: I AGREE THAT IT IS A CONSTRUCT MADE BY OUR SELFISH LOWER NATURE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ACTUALITY. IT IS MOST UNFORTUNATE THAT THOSE WHO ARE MALIGNANTLY CLEVER EMPLOY THEIR POWER TO RULE OVER OTHERS. 'THEOSOPHIST' IS A TERM THAT OUGHT TO BE RESERVED FOR THE ADEPTS. WE ARE ALL 'STUDENTS.' I WOULD BE HORRIFIED TO THINK THAT 'STUDENTS' WOULD DARE TO MUTILATE THE GRAND IDEA OF THE DHYAN CHOHAN [ LORD OF WISDOM -- A TERM THAT INDICATES HARMLESSNESS, COMPASSION AND HUMBLE OBEDIENCE TO THE GREAT AND UNIVERSAL LAW OF KARMA ] WITH SUCH AN ANTHROPOMORPHIC IDEA. DAL Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE6C9B.692F70C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MAR=20 12 
DEAR=20 JERRY 
 
AGAIN=20 I PUT IN SOME NOTES BELOW IN CAPS.
 
DAL
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 5:19 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World God, Angels, and=20 Dhyani-Chohans

>>[Dallas]If one accepts as a hang-over from Judaism the idea = of=20
Jehovah (the angry, wrathful, whimsical, God that enjoys torturing=20 its
subjects for no reason). I ask you what kind of a God is it=20 that
allows the phrase "Lead me not into temptation..." -- = as=20 though a
God that the poor, weak, defenseless, women, little children = and
the oppressed trust and honor, would do, or allow that ! = ]>>
 
Good question, and one that Jung has already answered. Such
a God is our own psychological projection or = anthropomorphism.
We all make these kinds of projections, seeing humanity in
non-human things/beings.  Magicians do this with Angels.  = I=20
suspect that Theosophists do the same thing with
Dhyani-Chohans and the like.
 
DALLAS:    I AGREE THAT IT IS A CONSTRUCT MADE = BY OUR=20 SELFISH LOWER NATURE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH = ACTUALITY.
 
IT IS=20 MOST UNFORTUNATE THAT THOSE WHO ARE MALIGNANTLY CLEVER EMPLOY THEIR = POWER TO=20 RULE OVER OTHERS.  'THEOSOPHIST' IS A TERM THAT OUGHT TO BE = RESERVED FOR=20 THE ADEPTS.  WE ARE ALL 'STUDENTS.' 
 
I=20 WOULD BE HORRIFIED TO THINK THAT 'STUDENTS' WOULD DARE TO MUTILATE THE = GRAND=20 IDEA OF THE DHYAN CHOHAN  [ LORD OF WISDOM -- A TERM THAT INDICATES = HARMLESSNESS, COMPASSION AND HUMBLE OBEDIENCE TO THE GREAT AND UNIVERSAL = LAW OF=20 KARMA ] WITH SUCH AN ANTHROPOMORPHIC IDEA.
 
DAL
 
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE6C9B.692F70C0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 16:41:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA05275 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:40:07 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World A Mockery of Ethics Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:38:03 -0800 Message-ID: <001f01be6ce1$5f54ffc0$880e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BE6C9E.5131BFC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004101be6c8b$8c76c340$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BE6C9E.5131BFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mar. 12TH DEAR JERRY I AM AFRAID YOU ARE RIGHT. HPB WARNED EVERYONE OF THIS REPEATEDLY. DAL ============================= Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 5:24 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World A Mockery of Ethics [Dallas]>>It is not Christianity alone that has turned the teachings of moral equity advocated by the gentle reformed Jesus into a mockery but also the responsibility of all who have allowed that to happen.<< The same has happened, and is happening today, in Theosophy. Whenever a Theosophist points fingers at other Theosophists and calls them liars and worse, then we have the same "mockery" going on. The result has been the fragmentation of HPB's TS, and it looks to me that the future is not going to look any better. YOU ARE PROBABLY UNFORTUNATELY RIGHT. EACH ONE HAS TO LEARN HOW TO BE BROTHERLY. DAL Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BE6C9E.5131BFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar.=20 12TH
 
DEAR=20 JERRY
 
I AM=20 AFRAID YOU ARE RIGHT.  HPB WARNED EVERYONE OF THIS=20 REPEATEDLY.
 
DAL
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 5:24 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World A Mockery of = Ethics

[Dallas]>>It is not Christianity alone that has turned the = teachings=20 of
moral equity advocated by the gentle reformed Jesus into = a
mockery but=20 also the responsibility of all who have allowed that
to = happen.<< =20
 
The same has happened, and is happening = today, in=20 Theosophy.
Whenever a Theosophist points fingers at = other=20 Theosophists
and calls them liars and worse, then we have = the same=20 "mockery"
going on.  The result has been the = fragmentation=20 of HPB's TS,
and it looks to me that the future is not = going to look=20 any better.
 
YOU=20 ARE PROBABLY UNFORTUNATELY RIGHT.  EACH ONE HAS TO LEARN HOW TO BE=20 BROTHERLY.
DAL
 
 
Jerry = S.
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BE6C9E.5131BFC0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 16:47:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA03009 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:19:12 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:17:09 -0800 Message-ID: <001301be6cde$74149cc0$880e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01BE6C9B.65F15CC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003101be6c89$e60291c0$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BE6C9B.65F15CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mar 12th Dear Jerry : I put some notes in CAPS below. Thanks for the opportunity of thinking about your thoughts. Dal =========================== Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 5:12 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Remission of Sins >[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are now being show up in many areas. > While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize that "perversions" is a subjective call. I personally think that the attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but this is just my own opinion because other people like it. [DALLAS ] i DID NOT HAVE CHRISTIANITY ALONE IN MIND. EVERY ORGANIZED RELIGION HAS ESTABLISHED A BASIS OF REMUNERATION FOR ITSELF AND THOSE WHO MAINTAIN IT. THE OCCULT STATEMENT THAT WISDOM CANNOT BE BOUGHT OR SOLD IS UNIVERSALLY TRUE (AS I SEE IT) -- SO PROFITING FROM SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE SUCH AS PSYCHOLOGICAL MANIPULATION IS REALLY QUITE IMPROPER. I OBJECT TO THAT. >There is no "remission of sins." And logically everyone is responsible for their choices. > We have discussed this before, and again we can only agree to disagree here. There is absolutely no way I am prepared to believe your first statement because if true then liberation (mukti) would be impossible. [DALLAS ] THE LOGIC THAT I LOOK AT STARTS WITH THE IDEA THAT WE ARE ALL IMMORTALS. SUCH BEING THE CASE "MUKTI" IS ONLY A VERY LONG DOZE/SLEEP IN ISOLATION FROM THE EVOLUTIONARY STREAM. THAT IS ADMITTEDLY TRUE. BUT EVEN THE MERIT THAT WINS "MUKTI" EVENTUALLY DISSIPATES AS THE EVOLUTIONARY STREAM CATCHES UP WITH THE 'SLEEPER,' IN WHICH ASE, AT THAT TIME, THE NIRVANEE (MUKTA) IS REAWAKENED BY MOTHER NATURE AND IT RESUMES WORKING AND LIVING. SEE SD II PP. 79 (bottom) AND 80 TOP AS THIS IS ILLUSTRATED. I can only accept Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or consumption of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a possibility. If "sins" can not go into "remission" when seen as dualistic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied that our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless lifetimes can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single heartbeat. DALLAS : WHO OR WHAT DOES THE FORGIVING ? IF NATURE IS IMPERSONAL AND THE LAWS AND RULES OF KARMA ARE IMMUTABLE, THEN WHAT KIND OF EXCEPTION WOULD PROVIDE THIS? IF YOU ARE RIGHT THEN THE SAME 'PATH' IS OPEN TO ALL. AND, IT CANNOT BE DENIED TO ANY. BUT ALSO IT DOES NOT BRING 'IMMORTALITY' OR 'ETERNITY' TO A FINAL CONCLUSION EITHER. THAT'S HOW I SEE IT, DAL. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BE6C9B.65F15CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar=20 12th
 
Dear=20 Jerry :   I put some notes in CAPS below.
 
Thanks=20 for the opportunity of thinking about your thoughts.
 
Dal
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 5:12 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Remission of = Sins

>[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are =
now being show up in many areas.  >
 
While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize = that
"perversions" is a subjective call. I personally think = that=20 the
attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but this
is just my own opinion because other people like it.
[DALLAS=20 ] 
i DID NOT HAVE CHRISTIANITY ALONE IN MIND.  = EVERY=20 ORGANIZED RELIGION HAS ESTABLISHED A BASIS OF REMUNERATION FOR ITSELF = AND THOSE=20 WHO MAINTAIN IT. THE OCCULT STATEMENT THAT WISDOM CANNOT BE BOUGHT OR = SOLD IS=20 UNIVERSALLY TRUE (AS I SEE IT) -- SO PROFITING FROM SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE = SUCH AS=20 PSYCHOLOGICAL MANIPULATION IS REALLY QUITE IMPROPER. I OBJECT TO=20 THAT.
 
 
>There is no "remission of sins."  And logically = everyone=20 is
responsible for their choices.  >
 
We have discussed = this before, and=20 again we can only
agree = to disagree=20 here. There is absolutely no way I am
prepared to believe your first statement because if true then
liberation (mukti) would be impossible. 
[DALLAS=20 ] 
THE LOGIC THAT I LOOK AT STARTS WITH THE IDEA THAT = WE ARE ALL=20 IMMORTALS.  SUCH BEING THE CASE "MUKTI" IS ONLY A VERY = LONG=20 DOZE/SLEEP IN ISOLATION FROM THE EVOLUTIONARY STREAM.  THAT IS = ADMITTEDLY=20 TRUE.  BUT EVEN THE MERIT THAT WINS "MUKTI" EVENTUALLY = DISSIPATES=20 AS THE EVOLUTIONARY STREAM CATCHES UP WITH THE 'SLEEPER,'  IN WHICH = ASE, AT=20 THAT TIME, THE NIRVANEE (MUKTA) IS REAWAKENED BY MOTHER NATURE AND IT = RESUMES=20 WORKING AND LIVING.  SEE SD II PP. 79 (bottom) AND 80 TOP AS THIS = IS=20 ILLUSTRATED.
 
 
 
 I can only accept 
Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or consumption
of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a
possibility. If "sins" can not go into = "remission" when=20 seen
as dualistic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's
fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied that
our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless=20 lifetimes
can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single heartbeat.
 
DALLAS=20 :   WHO OR WHAT DOES THE FORGIVING ?  IF NATURE IS = IMPERSONAL AND=20 THE LAWS AND RULES OF KARMA ARE IMMUTABLE, THEN WHAT KIND OF EXCEPTION = WOULD=20 PROVIDE THIS?  IF YOU ARE RIGHT THEN THE SAME 'PATH' IS OPEN TO = ALL. =20 AND, IT CANNOT BE DENIED TO ANY.  BUT ALSO IT DOES NOT BRING = 'IMMORTALITY'=20 OR 'ETERNITY' TO A FINAL CONCLUSION EITHER.
 
THAT'S=20 HOW I SEE IT,
 
DAL.
Jerry S.
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BE6C9B.65F15CC0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 17:41:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA10994 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:40:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:39:21 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Dhyani-Chohan Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/12/99 10:25:55 PM, Dallas wrote: <> It turns out that the term "chohan" is also an ordinary Tibetan one, to be found on page 431 of Sarata Chadra Das' TIBETAN-ENGLISH DICTIONARY. Choha= n in Tibetan has two primary meanings: 1. Simply a term for "Buddha." 2. "A title of honor given to distinguished scholars." (It can also mean a tran= ce- medium, but I doubt that has any relevance to Theosophical teachings.) DhyAni-Chohan would thus mean something like "Buddha of abstract meditatio= n" or "formless/transcendent Buddha." The "MahAchohan" that HPB talks about is probably a title given to a great Buddhist Adept in the Tibetan/Mongolian desert, someone who apparently incarnates the spiritual nature of AmitAbha, "Buddha of Infinite Light." = HPB even gives veiled directions to his hermitage, stating it is 160 leagues t= o the west, by a hidden road, from a certain peak called "Snowy Mountain." = In several places, the MahAchohan is called the head of the Esoteric Brotherh= ood. Interesting that his title should be a Tibetan Buddhist one. Is the Esoteric Brotherhood, then, actually an Esoteric Buddhist one? Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 17:56:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA11053 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:41:05 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <942de9ce.36e9a5b2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:39:30 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Research and defense Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/11/99 1:53:26 PM, Peter wrote: <> If this were the sole point of research, I would agree with you Peter. But scholars ignore Theosophy for more substantial reasons than spelling. HPB's vocabulary is *so* "out there" that it isn't a matter of spelling. They actually think she MADE THESE TERMS UP. Scholars believe Blavatsky's work has nothing to do with the real world; these terms are from her imagination and thus should justifiably be pushed aside for "real knowledge." However, if we can show that HPB's spellings are merely phonetic, and if we can spell them correctly and show that they appear in dictionaries and in (hitherto secret) Buddhist texts etc. then it is made abundantly clear that HPB was doing *exactly* what she said she was. Scholars are well-known for being spiritually blind. They also, however, tend to be objective about the dead-letter. Showing that HPB even measures up in a dead-letter way will at least encourage scholars to look again at her. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 18:12:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13510 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:08:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Slander Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:07:26 -0000 Message-ID: <001001be6ce5$7a128fe0$235795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199903111552.JAA25852@pippin.imagiware.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Jerry, Thanks very much for this. Do you have any more details as to the source of this statement? Regards Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Gerald > Schueler > Sent: 09 March 1999 18:33 > Subject: Theos-World Slander > > > Legally, in order to slander someone, what is being said must be false > and injurous. The whole notion of true or untrue, however, can be pretty > slippery and sometimes people say false things that they think are true. > > Slander is defined differently in occultism. Basically, occultism says > that words are slanderous if they invoke hatred or hostility in another > person, whether the words are true or false and immaterial of the intent > of the speaker. I came across this ancient definition in the recent > issue of Tricycle Magazine where it is said to be of Tibetan Buddhist > origin. I think that this definition should apply to all Theosophists. > This way we avoid endless argument over truth or falsity. Whenever we > start to make derogatory remarks about another person, living or dead, > true or false, if those remarks have the potential to inspire animosity > in a reader, then they are slanderous and should be avoided. > > Jerry S. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 18:31:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13505 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:08:49 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:07:23 -0000 Message-ID: <000b01be6ce5$78568800$235795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE6CE5.78568800" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003101be6c89$e60291c0$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE6CE5.78568800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dallas, You wrote: >There is no "remission of sins." And logically everyone is responsible for their choices. > I imagine you were challenging the Christian Church view here. Namely, that we can live an immoral life year after year and then have our sins absolved by God's forgiveness at the last minute, just before death. How very convenient! I can't find the reference at the moment, but I am sure that both HPB and Subba Row both state that Nirvana cannot be reached through Karma - because it is beyond the realm of cause and effect. Have you come across this? Best wishes Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: 12 March 1999 13:12 To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Remission of Sins >[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are now being show up in many areas. > While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize that "perversions" is a subjective call. I personally think that the attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but this is just my own opinion because other people like it. We have discussed this before, and again we can only agree to disagree here. There is absolutely no way I am prepared to believe your first statement because if true then liberation (mukti) would be impossible. I can only accept Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or consumption of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a possibility. If "sins" can not go into "remission" when seen as dualisitic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied that our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless lifetimes can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single heartbeat. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE6CE5.78568800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dallas,
 
You wrote:
>There is no "remission of sins."  And logically = everyone=20 is
responsible for their choices.  >
 
I imagine you were challenging the Christian Church view = here. =20 Namely, that we can live an immoral life year after year and then have = our sins=20 absolved by God's forgiveness at the last minute, just before=20 death.
 
How very convenient!
 
I can't find the reference at the moment, but I am sure that = both HPB and=20 Subba Row both state that Nirvana cannot be reached through Karma - = because it=20 is beyond the realm of cause and effect.  Have you come across=20 this?
 
Best wishes
 
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of = Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: 12 March 1999 13:12
To: Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Remission of = Sins

>[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning = are=20
now being show up in many areas.  >
 
While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize = that
"perversions" is a subjective call. I personally = think that=20 the
attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but = this
is just my own opinion because other people like it.
 
 
 
We have discussed = this before,=20 and again we can only
agree to disagree=20 here. There is absolutely no way I am
prepared to believe your first statement because if true = then
liberation (mukti) would be impossible.  I can only = accept
Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or = consumption
of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a
possibility. If "sins" can not go into = "remission"=20 when seen
as dualisitic maya, then nothing else can either. = Buddha's
fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied = that
our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless=20 lifetimes
can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single = heartbeat.
 
Jerry S.
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE6CE5.78568800-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 18:38:44 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13493 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:08:46 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:07:20 -0000 Message-ID: <000601be6ce5$7678ee60$235795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE6CE5.7678EE60" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002901be6c87$d1f483c0$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE6CE5.7678EE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry and Frank Jerry: I agree with Frank that we do have a duty to speak up and speak out in defence of HPB and her Teachers. I don't believe they did have a 'turn the other cheek' policy in this respect. HPB put herself on the line over and over again in defence of the truth and the Mahatmas. And the latter also encouraged other people to speak out as well. As I understand it HPB stated it was our duty to speak out *and* to have compassion. The latter being a quality you have encouraged just recently. I wonder if the middle way is to intergrate the two? Frank: Where I don't agree with you is on the issue of criticism. I don't think it says any where that the right to criticise others is an occult law, as you suggest. What value is it to criticise people who are dead, or those who can't defend themselves, for example? I think we need to be 'critical' in the sense of discriminating, to challenge that which seems to be 'off key'. With this faculty we can also review events and learn from the 'mistakes' of others. Heaven knows we will make enough of our own! Best wishes Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: 12 March 1999 12:57 To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart >>No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only the right, but it is the duty for every true Theosophits, for every student of the pukka Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - the more when there are sideways and traps or even lies which are smuggled into the Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her teachers. No one is free of the risk to get critisized, if it seems he/she is wrong doing, no matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be an incarnated god beyond any critisism. >> Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are fragmented tdoay, and will probably die out in the future. While you certainly have the right to think this way, it is completely against the turn-the-other-cheek policy of real Adepts and of what HPB herself tried to inspire in her followers. You are, like so many others, projecting your own narrow sense of truth and "lies" onto others. Ah well... Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE6CE5.7678EE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jerry and Frank
 
Jerry: I agree with Frank that we do have a duty to speak up = and speak=20 out in defence of HPB and her Teachers.  I don't believe they did = have a=20 'turn the other cheek' policy in this respect.  HPB put herself on = the line=20 over and over again in defence of the truth and the Mahatmas. And the = latter=20 also encouraged other people to speak out as well.  As I understand = it  HPB stated it was our duty to speak out *and* to have = compassion. =20 The latter being a quality you have encouraged just recently.  I = wonder if=20 the middle way is to intergrate the two?
 
Frank: Where I don't agree with you is on the issue of = criticism.  I=20 don't think it says any where that the right to criticise others is an = occult=20 law, as you suggest.  What value is it to criticise people who are = dead, or=20 those who can't defend themselves, for example?  I think we need to = be=20 'critical' in the sense of discriminating, to challenge that which seems = to be=20 'off key'.  With this faculty we can also review events and learn = from the=20 'mistakes' of others.  Heaven knows we will make enough of our=20 own!
 
Best=20 wishes
 
Peter
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: 12 March 1999 12:57
To: Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling=20 Apart

>>No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not = only the=20 right, but
it is the duty for every true Theosophits, for every = student=20 of the pukka
Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to = speak out -=20 the more when
there are sideways and traps or even lies which are = smuggled into the
Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of = HPB and=20 her teachers. No one is
free of the risk to get critisized, if it = seems=20 he/she is wrong doing, no
matter if he/she is alive or dead, = except=20 he/she is claims to be an
incarnated god beyond any critisism.=20 >>
 
Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are = fragmented
tdoay, and will probably die out in the future.  While you = certainly
have the right to think this way, it is completely against = the
turn-the-other-cheek policy of real Adepts and of what HPB=20 herself
tried to inspire in her followers. You are, like so many = others,
projecting your own narrow sense of truth and "lies" = onto=20 others.
Ah well...
 
Jerry S.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BE6CE5.7678EE60-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 18:41:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13481 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:08:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World God, Angels, and Dhyani-Chohans Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:07:15 -0000 Message-ID: <000101be6ce5$73d98b60$235795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01BE6CE5.73D98B60" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003901be6c8a$dd726160$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BE6CE5.73D98B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good point Jery & Dallas. HPB repeatedly warned about anthropormphism. And in the Mahatma letters KH says that belief in a personal God is one of the geatest impediments to humanity's forward growth. He also states in Letter No 10: The God of the Theologians is simply and imaginary power, un loup garou as d'Holbach expressed it -- a power which has never yet manifested itself. Our chief aim is to deliver humanity of this nightmare, to teach man virtue for its own sake, and to walk in life relying on himself instead of leaning on a theological crutch, that for countless ages was the direct cause of nearly all human misery. As Jerry says there are probably students of Theosophy who 'personalise' even the Dhyanis. One has to make it quite clear though that this is quite the opposite of what Theosophy teaches - repeatedly. There is an interesting comment on beliefs in the the Mahatma Letters by M in a letter dictated by HPB (Letter 134). Referring to Sinnet and Hume, the Master says: Their beliefs are no barrier to us for they have none. They may have had influences around them, bad magnetic emanations the result of drink, Society and promiscuous physical associations (resulting even from shaking hands with impure men) but all this is physical and material impediments which with a little effort we could counteract and even clear away without much detriment to ourselves. Not so with the magnetism and invisible results proceeding from erroneous and sincere beliefs. Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions attracts millions of foreign influences, living entities and powerful agents around them, with which we would have to use more than ordinary exercise of power to drive them away. We do not choose to do so. We do not find it either necessary or profitable to lose our time waging war to the unprogressed Planetaries who delight in personating gods and sometimes well known characters who have lived on earth. Jerry, my sense is that latter day Jungian psychology has contributed a great deal to 'personalising' impersonal forces / archetypes. I notice how following this tradition people start 'people-ing' their 'inner world' with all kinds of archetypes (so called). All of them tend to be very human personifications, and at times even sub human. It's a bit like there has been a withdrawal of the 'projection' onto the divine but only to continue in another form. For example - my magician, my wise man / woman, my warrior & so on, & so on. What is your take on this? Regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: 12 March 1999 13:19 To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World God, Angels, and Dhyani-Chohans >>[Dallas]If one accepts as a hang-over from Judaism the idea of Jehovah (the angry, wrathful, whimsical, God that enjoys torturing its subjects for no reason). I ask you what kind of a God is it that allows the phrase "Lead me not into temptation..." -- as though a God that the poor, weak, defenseless, women, little children and the oppressed trust and honor, would do, or allow that ! ]>> Good question, and one that Jung has already answered. Such a God is our own psychological projection or anthropomorhism. We all make these kinds of projections, seeing humanity in non-human things/beings. Magicans do this with Angels. I suspect that Theosophists do the same thing with Dhyani-Chohans and the like. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BE6CE5.73D98B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good point Jery & Dallas.  HPB repeatedly warned about = anthropormphism.  And in the Mahatma letters KH says that belief in = a=20 personal God is one of the geatest impediments to humanity's forward=20 growth.  He also states in Letter No 10:
 

The God of the Theologians is simply and imaginary power, un = loup garou as d'Holbach expressed it -- a power which has never = yet=20 manifested itself. Our chief aim is to deliver humanity of this = nightmare, to=20 teach man virtue for its own sake, and to walk in life relying on = himself=20 instead of leaning on a theological crutch, that for countless ages was = the=20 direct cause of nearly all human misery.

As Jerry says there are probably students of Theosophy who = 'personalise'=20 even the Dhyanis.
 
One has to make it quite clear though that this is quite the = opposite of=20 what Theosophy teaches - repeatedly.
 
There is an interesting comment on beliefs in the the Mahatma = Letters by=20 M in a letter dictated by HPB (Letter 134).  Referring to Sinnet = and Hume,=20 the Master says:

Their beliefs are no barrier to us for they have none. They = may have=20 had influences around them, bad magnetic emanations the result of drink, = Society=20 and promiscuous physical associations (resulting even from shaking hands = with=20 impure men) but all this is physical and material impediments which with = a=20 little effort we could counteract and even clear away without much = detriment to=20 ourselves. Not so with the magnetism and invisible results proceeding = from=20 erroneous and sincere beliefs. Faith in the Gods and God, and other=20 superstitions attracts millions of foreign influences, living entities = and=20 powerful agents around them, with which we would have to use more than = ordinary=20 exercise of power to drive them away. We do not choose to do so. We do = not find=20 it either necessary or profitable to lose our time waging war to the=20 unprogressed Planetaries who delight in personating gods and = sometimes=20 well known characters who have lived on earth.

Jerry, my sense is that latter day Jungian psychology has = contributed a=20 great deal to 'personalising' impersonal forces / archetypes.  I = notice how=20 following this tradition people start 'people-ing' their 'inner world' = with all=20 kinds of archetypes (so called).  All of them tend to be very human = personifications, and at times even sub human.  It's a bit like = there has=20 been a withdrawal of the 'projection' onto the divine but only to = continue in=20 another form.  For example - my magician, my wise man / woman, my = warrior=20 & so on, & so on.  What is your take on = this?
 
Regards,
 
Peter
 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: 12 March 1999 13:19
To: Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World God, Angels, and=20 Dhyani-Chohans

>>[Dallas]If one accepts as a hang-over from Judaism the = idea of=20
Jehovah (the angry, wrathful, whimsical, God that enjoys = torturing=20 its
subjects for no reason). I ask you what kind of a God is it=20 that
allows the phrase "Lead me not into temptation..." = -- as=20 though a
God that the poor, weak, defenseless, women, little = children=20 and
the oppressed trust and honor, would do, or allow that !=20 ]>>
 
Good question, and one that Jung has already answered. = Such
a God is our own psychological projection or = anthropomorhism.
We all make these kinds of projections, seeing humanity = in
non-human things/beings.  Magicans do this with = Angels.  I=20
suspect that Theosophists do the same thing with
Dhyani-Chohans and the like.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BE6CE5.73D98B60-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 19:32:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA18433 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:57:21 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Dhyani-Chohan Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:55:15 -0800 Message-ID: <000201be6cf4$8ae906a0$8c0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 12 Thanks rich: It is good to have your scholarship available. But I think it makes it tough to sometimes use those words much as HPB seems to have. I sure don't know the answer to your question about the esoteric aspect of things except I would say that a BUDDHA of whatever grade or designation would have to be an esotericist and with a knowledge of the universe in great detail, would he not ? Dal ================================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Richtay@aol.com Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:39 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Dhyani-Chohan In a message dated 3/12/99 10:25:55 PM, Dallas wrote: <> It turns out that the term "chohan" is also an ordinary Tibetan one, to be found on page 431 of Sarata Chadra Das' TIBETAN-ENGLISH DICTIONARY. Chohan in Tibetan has two primary meanings: 1. Simply a term for "Buddha." 2. "A title of honor given to distinguished scholars." (It can also mean a trance- medium, but I doubt that has any relevance to Theosophical teachings.) DhyAni-Chohan would thus mean something like "Buddha of abstract meditation" or "formless/transcendent Buddha." The "MahAchohan" that HPB talks about is probably a title given to a great Buddhist Adept in the Tibetan/Mongolian desert, someone who apparently incarnates the spiritual nature of AmitAbha, "Buddha of Infinite Light." HPB even gives veiled directions to his hermitage, stating it is 160 leagues to the west, by a hidden road, from a certain peak called "Snowy Mountain." In several places, the MahAchohan is called the head of the Esoteric Brotherhood. Interesting that his title should be a Tibetan Buddhist one. Is the Esoteric Brotherhood, then, actually an Esoteric Buddhist one? Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 22:26:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA03487 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:21:46 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990312222116.00f1334c@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:21:16 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com, From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart In-Reply-To: <000e01be6cdb$871090c0$880e97cf@netway.nwc.net> References: <002901be6c87$d1f483c0$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 02:56 PM 3/12/1999 -0800, W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: 0000,0000,8080We would not be involved in Theosophy if we did not have great independence. Dallas, you are right. If one follows just a set of firm beliefs, they how can we recognize when any aspect of truth shows up in most unexpected way. 0000,0000,8080We also have the ability to think and seek to understand each other. Independent thinking is very difficult especially when we bring with us all the various "facts" and beliefs -- many that we are not even aware of. Also an independent thinker, in my opinion, is the most unpredictable person because he/she cannot be expected to react/act in a routine manner. 0000,0000,8080As to one thing that is quite clear to me: THEOSOPHY is quite different from the work and organization of any T S. Sure that distinction should always be kept in mind. At the same time, in the back of my mind, I have the lingering feeling that TS has a role to play. If not it would never have been established in the first place. ....doss -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 12 22:41:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA02861 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:12:49 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990312221218.00f15378@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:12:18 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com, From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart In-Reply-To: <000601be6ce5$7678ee60$235795c1@et.u-net.com> References: <002901be6c87$d1f483c0$247d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 12:07 AM 3/13/1999 -0000, Peter Merriott wrote: >>>> Courier NewHi Jerry and Frank Courier NewJerry: I agree with Frank that we do have a duty to speak up and speak out in defence of HPB and her Teachers. I don't believe they did have a 'turn the other cheek' policy in this respect. HPB put herself on the line over and over again in defence of the truth and the Mahatmas. And the latter also encouraged other people to speak out as well. As I understand it HPB stated it was our duty to speak out *and* to have compassion. The latter being a quality you have encouraged just recently. I wonder if the middle way is to intergrate the two? You are right. I think we need to speak out when anyone is falsely accused or when we feel something is false or even when we something worthwhile could be said which may help anyone. When I read the various articles HPB wrote in the early days, she took full advantage of the communication medium of the day -- printed publications to espouse Theosophy and criticize erroneous "facts" and beliefs with such vigor and force. Only she could do so. I think such publications actually stirred up interest in Theosophy and related matters and much of early growth could be ascribed to it. Looking at what the situation today is. While it may look like criticism, the fact is we have these free maillists which discuss matters relating to TS. I have never seen any of the elected International and National leaders participating in any of them. While they and their supporters can give you a thousand reasons why they do not participate, it is my humble view, that if HPB were to be alive today, you will see her powerful responses splashed all over the maillists. While we all have to work on ourselves and make use of theosophical principles in our daily life, I think that an energetic TS organization may do a lot of good in popularizing theosophy. If the Founders felt that there is no need for an organization, HPB would have stayed in NY and wrote and just published the books and would have saved a lot of trouble in travelling around the world. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 05:11:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id FAA28373 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:10:17 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <2acad5e0.36ea4740@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:08:48 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/12/99 11:26:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, ramadoss@eden.com writes: << Independent thinking is very difficult especially when we bring with us all the various "facts" and beliefs -- many that we are not even aware of. Also an independent thinker, in my opinion, is the most unpredictable person because he/she cannot be expected to react/act in a routine manner. >> Doss, Indeed, Independent thinking is difficult, in fact it is a rarity. I like to think of it as the end result of an internal process. When intuitive awareness finally bubbles to surface of rational consciousness in an inner to outer direction, the Independent thinker is born. Of course this supposes that the thinker has trained themselves to use the output of non verbal, abstractional consciousness. HPB ad a few other were such thinkers. DEPENDENT thinking, on the other hand, is exactly what it says it is. It DEPENDS on what has gone before. It is outward-turned, It travels in the opposite direction, from outer to inner, through the rational mind and when we are lucky or skillful enough, finally ASSIMILATED and ready for use. The Theosophical Societies of today are filled with the latter and almost empty of the former. What else could one expect (falling apart) when such is the case? Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 07:11:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA01915 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:56:24 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:54:18 -0800 Message-ID: <000301be6d58$fd504b40$a00e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6D15.EF2D0B40" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <000b01be6ce5$78568800$235795c1@et.u-net.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6D15.EF2D0B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mar 13 1999 Dear Peter: I would like to have the reference you recall also. I cannot think of it either. However: Karma touches everything. It is an aspect of the ABSOLUTE. Under its reign Universes come and go. The imperishable MONADS that we are at core are also unalienable aspects (parts) of the ABSOLUTE. Are we not really speaking of "fields of force" on planes quite different from our merely physical. What is the MONAD ? I just posted to BN a small essay on the first moments of the resumption of evolution and compared it (at Reed's request) with the 3 "Qualities" or "Gunas" as described in the BHAGAVAD GITA. Does this in any way deal with your observation ? Perhaps not directly. Dal ================================ Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Peter Merriott Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:07 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Hi Dallas, You wrote: >There is no "remission of sins." And logically everyone is responsible for their choices. > I imagine you were challenging the Christian Church view here. Namely, that we can live an immoral life year after year and then have our sins absolved by God's forgiveness at the last minute, just before death. How very convenient! I can't find the reference at the moment, but I am sure that both HPB and Subba Row both state that Nirvana cannot be reached through Karma - because it is beyond the realm of cause and effect. Have you come across this? Best wishes Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: 12 March 1999 13:12 To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Remission of Sins >[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are now being show up in many areas. > While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize that "perversions" is a subjective call. I personally think that the attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but this is just my own opinion because other people like it. We have discussed this before, and again we can only agree to disagree here. There is absolutely no way I am prepared to believe your first statement because if true then liberation (mukti) would be impossible. I can only accept Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or consumption of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a possibility. If "sins" can not go into "remission" when seen as dualistic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied that our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless lifetimes can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single heartbeat. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6D15.EF2D0B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar 13=20 1999
 
Dear=20 Peter:
 
I=20 would like to have the reference you recall also.  I cannot think = of it=20 either.
 
However:  Karma touches everything.  It is an aspect = of the=20 ABSOLUTE.  Under its reign Universes come and go.  The = imperishable=20 MONADS that we are at core are also unalienable aspects (parts) of the=20 ABSOLUTE.  Are we not  really speaking of "fields of = force"=20 on planes quite different from our merely physical.  What is the = MONAD=20 ?
 
I just=20 posted to BN a small essay on the first moments of the resumption of = evolution=20 and compared it (at Reed's request) with the 3 "Qualities" or=20 "Gunas" as described in the BHAGAVAD GITA.
 
Does=20 this in any way deal with your observation ?  Perhaps not=20 directly.
 
Dal
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Peter=20 Merriott
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:07 PM
To:=20 theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of = Sins

Hi Dallas,
 
You wrote:=20
>There is no "remission of sins."  And logically = everyone=20 is
responsible for their choices.  >
 
I imagine you were challenging the Christian Church view = here. =20 Namely, that we can live an immoral life year after year and then have = our sins=20 absolved by God's forgiveness at the last minute, just before=20 death.
 
How very convenient!
 
I can't find the reference at the moment, but I am sure that = both HPB and=20 Subba Row both state that Nirvana cannot be reached through Karma - = because it=20 is beyond the realm of cause and effect.  Have you come across=20 this?
 
Best wishes
 
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of = Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: 12 March 1999 13:12
To: Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Remission of = Sins

>[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning = are=20
now being show up in many areas.  >
 
While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize = that
"perversions" is a subjective call. I personally = think that=20 the
attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but = this
is just my own opinion because other people like it.
 
 
 
We have discussed = this before,=20 and again we can only
agree to disagree=20 here. There is absolutely no way I am
prepared to believe your first statement because if true = then
liberation (mukti) would be impossible.  I can only = accept
Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or = consumption
of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a
possibility. If "sins" can not go into = "remission"=20 when seen
as dualistic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's
fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied = that
our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless=20 lifetimes
can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single = heartbeat.
 
Jerry S.
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6D15.EF2D0B40-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 07:26:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA02248 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:02:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:59:53 -0800 Message-ID: <000801be6d59$c4a7c9c0$a00e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE6D16.B68489C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990312222116.00f1334c@mail.eden.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE6D16.B68489C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Doss Did you change your method of posting in some way Usually my equipment picks up anything that is sent over INTERNET. This morning when I tried to print your 2 MSGS, all I got was the top 3 lines and the actual message area remained blank. Other incoming messages I got with no trouble. Very curious. 1. Being Human is developing that independence and self-reliance that enables us to progress forward in our spiritual development. Following out of respect has great value in developing devotion. But, does it develop DISCRIMINATION ? Do we become wiser ? what is the contrast between BHAKTI and GNYAN ? 2. The T S has a role to play. Only read and think about the 3 OBJECTS. If the members can educate themselves by studying the basic and original message, then they will bring abut from within any reform that is needed. Yes, the T S is to be respected. But is the present T S the one that is following the ORIGINAL PROGRAM of the MASTERS, or is it not ? Is the "Management" trustworthy and fair, or is it not ? When asked to make reforms that are common-sense and elementary equity, does it respond with sensitivity or with obfuscation ? 3. Can any man move a mountain ? Not in a single life time perhaps, but a beginning can be made. Main point is of value and of necessity. Again it is discrimination. 4. Our duty, as I see it is to follow our Voice of Conscience, and to check its prompting with the touchstone of common sense and the wisdom which we have acquired from a study of Theosophy. Theosophy is either the Sanatana Dharma or it is nonsense. But which ever answer we choose, it is WE who will make the choice and will also bear such consequences as result from that choice. This happens all the time. 5. The main point is WHERE SHOULD WE BEST SPEND OUR TIME? In what way can we best assist others ? Best wishes, and many thanks for your views and ideas Dallas Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K Ramadoss Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:21 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com; theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart At 02:56 PM 3/12/1999 -0800, W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: We would not be involved in Theosophy if we did not have great independence. Dallas, you are right. If one follows just a set of firm beliefs, they how can we recognize when any aspect of truth shows up in most unexpected way. We also have the ability to think and seek to understand each other. Independent thinking is very difficult especially when we bring with us all the various "facts" and beliefs -- many that we are not even aware of. Also an independent thinker, in my opinion, is the most unpredictable person because he/she cannot be expected to react/act in a routine manner. As to one thing that is quite clear to me: THEOSOPHY is quite different from the work and organization of any T S. Sure that distinction should always be kept in mind. At the same time, in the back of my mind, I have the lingering feeling that TS has a role to play. If not it would never have been established in the first place. ....doss -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE6D16.B68489C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=20 Doss
 
Did=20 you change your method of posting in some way
 
Usually my equipment picks up anything that is sent over=20 INTERNET.
 
This=20 morning when I tried to print your 2 MSGS, all I got was the top 3 lines = and the=20 actual message area remained blank.
 
Other=20 incoming messages I got with no trouble.
 
Very=20 curious.
 
1.    Being Human is developing that = independence and=20 self-reliance that enables us to progress forward in our spiritual=20 development.  Following out of respect has great value in = developing=20 devotion.  But, does it develop DISCRIMINATION ?  Do we become = wiser=20 ?  what is the contrast between BHAKTI and GNYAN = ?
 
2.    The T S has a role to play.  Only = read and=20 think about the 3 OBJECTS.  If the members can educate themselves = by=20 studying the basic and original message, then they will bring abut from = within=20 any reform that is needed.  Yes, the T S is to be respected.  = But is=20 the present T S the one that is following the ORIGINAL PROGRAM of the = MASTERS,=20 or is it not ?  Is the "Management" trustworthy and fair, = or is=20 it not ?  When asked to make reforms that are common-sense and = elementary=20 equity, does it respond with sensitivity or with obfuscation=20 ?
 
3.    Can any man move a mountain ?  Not in = a single=20 life time perhaps, but a beginning can be made.  Main point is of = value and=20 of necessity.  Again it is discrimination.
 
4.    Our duty, as I see it is to follow our = Voice of=20 Conscience, and to check its prompting with the touchstone of common = sense and=20 the wisdom which we have acquired from a study of Theosophy.  = Theosophy is=20 either the Sanatana Dharma or it is nonsense. But which ever answer we = choose,=20 it is WE who will make the choice and will also bear such consequences = as result=20 from that choice. This happens all the time.
 
5.    The main point is WHERE SHOULD WE BEST = SPEND OUR=20 TIME?  In what way can we best assist others ?
 
Best=20 wishes, and many thanks for your views and ideas
 
Dallas
 
 
 
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K=20 Ramadoss
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:21 PM
To:=20 theos-talk@theosophy.com; theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: = RE:=20 Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart

At 02:56 = PM=20 3/12/1999 -0800, W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote:
We would not be involved in=20 Theosophy if we did not have great=20 independence.

Dallas, you are = right.

If one=20 follows just a set of firm beliefs, they how can we recognize when any = aspect of=20 truth shows up in most unexpected way.

We also have the ability to = think=20 and seek to understand each = other.


Independent=20 thinking is very difficult especially when we bring with us all the = various=20 "facts" and beliefs -- many that we are not even aware of. = Also an=20 independent thinker, in my opinion, is the most unpredictable person = because=20 he/she cannot be expected to react/act in a routine manner.

As to one thing that is quite = clear to me: THEOSOPHY is quite different from the work and = organization of=20 any T S.

Sure that distinction should = always be=20 kept in mind. At the same time, in the back of my mind, I have the = lingering=20 feeling that TS has a role to play. If not it would never have been = established=20 in the first place.

....doss


-- THEOSOPHY WORLD --=20 Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
Letters to the Editor, = and=20 discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or = unsubscribe,=20 send a message consisting of "subscribe" or = "unsubscribe" to=20 theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE6D16.B68489C0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 09:56:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA11753 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:54:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990313095355.00e4d6e8@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:53:55 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart In-Reply-To: <2acad5e0.36ea4740@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 06:08 AM 3/13/1999 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/12/99 11:26:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, >ramadoss@eden.com writes: > ><< Independent thinking is very difficult especially when we bring with us > all the various "facts" and beliefs -- many that we are not even aware > of. Also an independent thinker, in my opinion, is the most unpredictable > person because he/she cannot be expected to react/act in a routine > manner. >> > > >Doss, > >Indeed, Independent thinking is difficult, in fact it is a rarity. I like to >think of it as the end result of an internal process. When intuitive awareness >finally bubbles to surface of rational consciousness in an inner to outer >direction, the Independent thinker is born. Of course this supposes that the >thinker has trained themselves to use the output of non verbal, abstractional >consciousness. HPB ad a few other were such thinkers. > >DEPENDENT thinking, on the other hand, is exactly what it says it is. It >DEPENDS on what has gone before. It is outward-turned, It travels in the >opposite direction, from outer to inner, through the rational mind and when we >are lucky or skillful enough, finally ASSIMILATED and ready for use. > >The Theosophical Societies of today are filled with the latter and almost >empty of the former. What else could one expect (falling apart) when such is >the case? > >Louis Dear Louis: After being exposed to TS for several decades, it was a breath of fresh air when I got introduced to Krishnamurti's lectures and books. He has for 60 years been talking about the need for each one of us to do independent thinking. Looking back to some of the early writings of HPB as well as Mahatma Letter to APS, this issue has come up time and again. Looks like it is one of the hardest things to do in real life and that is what is really needed if we are to get out of the "dependent" thinking. ....mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 10:11:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA11885 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:56:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990313095534.00e4d6e8@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:55:34 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart In-Reply-To: <000801be6d59$c4a7c9c0$a00e97cf@netway.nwc.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19990312222116.00f1334c@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 05:59 AM 3/13/1999 -0800, you wrote: >>>> Arial0000,0000,8080Dear Doss Arial0000,0000,8080Did you change your method of posting in some way Arial0000,0000,8080Usually my equipment picks up anything that is sent over INTERNET. Arial0000,0000,8080This morning when I tried to print your 2 MSGS, all I got was the top 3 lines and the actual message area remained blank. Arial0000,0000,8080Other incoming messages I got with no trouble. Arial0000,0000,8080Very curious. I will repost them. I normally use Eudora to post msgs. This time I may have used Netscape 4.5. ...mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 10:23:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA12756 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:07:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990313100637.00e4d6e8@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:06:37 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart In-Reply-To: <000801be6d59$c4a7c9c0$a00e97cf@netway.nwc.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19990312222116.00f1334c@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 05:59 AM 3/13/1999 -0800, you wrote: Arial0000,0000,80801. Being Human is developing that independence and self-reliance that enables us to progress forward in our spiritual development. Following out of respect has great value in developing devotion. But, does it develop DISCRIMINATION ? Do we become wiser ? what is the contrast between BHAKTI and GNYAN ? left In my opinion, independence and self-reliance are needed very much today. It is the few independent and self-reliant men and women who have done great things which have helped Humanity. It is not the masses of blind followers. Blind following is very easy and comfortable. Arial0000,0000,80802. The T S has a role to play. Only read and think about the 3 OBJECTS. If the members can educate themselves by studying the basic and original message, then they will bring abut from within any reform that is needed. Yes, the T S is to be respected. But is the present T S the one that is following the ORIGINAL PROGRAM of the MASTERS, or is it not ? Is the "Management" trustworthy and fair, or is it not ? When asked to make reforms that are common-sense and elementary equity, does it respond with sensitivity or with obfuscation ? leftResults speak for themselves. >>>> Arial0000,0000,80803. Can any man move a mountain ? Not in a single life time perhaps, but a beginning can be made. Main point is of value and of necessity. Again it is discrimination. leftThe faith in being able to move mountain can get us started, may be we can move some pebbles and stones. Arial0000,0000,80804. Our duty, as I see it is to follow our Voice of Conscience, and to check its prompting with the touchstone of common sense and the wisdom which we have acquired from a study of Theosophy. Theosophy is either the Sanatana Dharma or it is nonsense. But which ever answer we choose, it is WE who will make the choice and will also bear such consequences as result from that choice. This happens all the time. When one follows conscience it is very easy. Conscience does not give choices. It is intellect that gives choices and rationalizes. Arial0000,0000,80805. The main point is WHERE SHOULD WE BEST SPEND OUR TIME? In what way can we best assist others ? leftIt all depends. I think each one of us have to determine it and live with it and its effects. I think it is simple common sense that all of us should try to assist anyone in any way we can. All one needs is to look for opportunities. Thanks for sharing your ideas. ...mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 14:26:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA00719 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:13:27 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:12:20 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/13/99 4:22:55 PM, you wrote: <<Arial0000,0000,80801. Being Human is developing that independence and self-reliance that enables us to progress forward in our spiritual development. Following out of respect has great value in developing devotion. But, does it develop DISCRIMINATION ? Do we become wiser ? what is the contrast between BHAKTI and GNYAN ? left >> What's with all the computer lingo in brackets? This also makes it very difficult to read long messages, broken up with all this gibberish. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 15:11:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA04477 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:56:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:55:09 -0000 Message-ID: <000401be6d93$c7d68f20$ae5895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com It came through to me just fine. Maybe it had something to do with replying to MKR's Netscape formatted message? Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of > Richtay@aol.com > Sent: 13 March 1999 20:12 > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart > > > > In a message dated 3/13/99 4:22:55 PM, you wrote: > > <<Arial0000,0000,80801. > Being Human is developing that independence and self-reliance that > enables us to progress forward in our spiritual development. Following > out of respect has great value in developing devotion. But, does it > develop DISCRIMINATION ? Do we become wiser ? what is the contrast > between BHAKTI and GNYAN ? > > > > left >> > > > What's with all the computer lingo in brackets? This also makes it very > difficult to read long messages, broken up with all this gibberish. > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 16:56:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA13809 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:47:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990313164714.0117c650@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:47:14 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart In-Reply-To: <000401be6d93$c7d68f20$ae5895c1@et.u-net.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com You are right. It appears that when Netscape's mail reader is used to reply it may have inserted the display commands automatically. Normally I use Eudora which does not do this. Thanks for letting me know. mkr At 08:55 PM 3/13/1999 -0000, you wrote: >It came through to me just fine. Maybe it had something to do with replying >to MKR's Netscape formatted message? > >Peter > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com >> [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of >> Richtay@aol.com >> Sent: 13 March 1999 20:12 >> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >> Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/13/99 4:22:55 PM, you wrote: >> >> <<Arial0000,0000,80801. >> Being Human is developing that independence and self-reliance that >> enables us to progress forward in our spiritual development. Following >> out of respect has great value in developing devotion. But, does it >> develop DISCRIMINATION ? Do we become wiser ? what is the contrast >> between BHAKTI and GNYAN ? >> >> >> >> left >> >> >> >> What's with all the computer lingo in brackets? This also makes it very >> difficult to read long messages, broken up with all this gibberish. >> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 21:11:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA01401 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:57:44 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990314025643.7711.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Mr Alan Donant changes his Conger "story" in a most significant way Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:56:42 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In Mr Alan Donant's article "Colonel Arthur L. Conger", as first published in "Theosophical History", one finds the assertion----- "On October 22, 1945, Colonel Conger was elected by the Cabinet as the Leader of the Theosophical Society. At this time he was confined to a wheelchair by Parkinson's disease. It was a prejudice against this illness that lay at the heart of the turmoil to come." page 45 In my recent criticism of this statement, I pointed out that Mr Donant gave no evidence to support his claim about the "prejudice". I went on to contend that what really "lay at the heart of the turmoil to come" was in fact Mr Conger's claims in regards to being the new head of the Covina T.S. Esoteric School. I quoted Mr Emmett Small's testimony (*ignored* by Mr Donant) which reads---- "The position that Colonel Conger was elected to fill, it should be emphasized, was one of purely exoteric and administrative authority. An E.S. Council at the time was directing the activities of the Esoteric Section. . . . . . . .Within three months of his election Col. Conger assumed headship of the E.S., declaring he held the same status as H.P.B. did. Within the next few months he had summarily dismissed from office all who did not immediately acknowledge him in this capacity, even though they had conscientiously asked for more time to give it careful and full consideration. Those so uncharitably and swiftly deprived of former duties and responsibilities included, among others, the Chairman (Iverson L. Harris) and the Secretary (W. Emmett Small) of the cabinet. . . . . . . . . . ." It is quite interesting to find that in the newly revised edition of the Conger article recently posted on the TUP Online website, Mr Donant has *changed the statement* (quoted at the beginning of this post) to read----- "For a few, it was a prejudice against this illness and his being head of the ES that lay at the heart of the turmoil to come." In the revised article, Mr Donant does *not* indicate why he has made this significant change from the original version in "Theosophical History." Also Mr Donant doesn't provide any new evidence in the revised version to support this change in his thesis. Why is he totally silent on this issue? No doubt, he has full access to many firsthand documents that would clarify this significant change he has made in his thesis. Very curious & strange! David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 22:41:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA09757 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:33:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <36EB3C77.E10C37E8@azstarnet.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:35:04 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com, Daniel Caldwell Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History References: <5ee1181a.36dafbe3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Richtay@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/1/99 1:40:46 PM, Frank wrote: > > <<>This serious esoteric crisis broke out in 1946 with the claim of Conger, > > >three months after he took office as TS leader, to hold the same occult > > >status as HPB and forced the members to accept him as new Outer Head of the > > >ES. > > And Jerry S. responded, > > < > organization. I would challenge you to find anything "esoteric" at > > all in an outer organization changing its structure.>> > > Once again, I quite agree with Jerry. In my opinion something is not > "esoteric" because it is labeled that, or because someone told me it was > esoteric. The real esotericism, at least as far as the T.S. should be > concerned, lies with the inner unfoldment of the nature of each member, due to > devotion to the Gurus who brought the movement to the world and who (at first > and for a long time) represent the SELF. > > The Masters started the original E.S., and the followers broke it into pieces > during the time of Judge/Besant and then again and again and again. The > concern with each tiny piece (Point Loma, Pasadena, Adyar, Anthroposophy, > Roerich, Bailey) and speaking of each piece as if it were THE ONE seems quite > silly to me. Who cares exactly why the Point Loma group shook up in the 1940s > and some people went their separate ways? > > Do the Masters need a little esoteric group to work through? Can't > individuals grow spiritually through independent devotion to the Masters, > through study, through work for humanity? Is there anything "esoteric" > besides this? > > Rich > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 13 22:56:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA10635 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:43:29 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <36EB3EC9.D030D84F@azstarnet.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:44:58 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com, Daniel Caldwell Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History References: <5ee1181a.36dafbe3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Rich, What in your opinion was the purpose of the original esoteric section as founded by Madame B.? Also can any one tell me more about the debate between Frank and Jerry? I've been sick for the last several weeks and haven't been reading my emails which number in the 1000s. I've looked thru all of them but can't seem to find the previous subject thread between Frank and Jerry. What are the basic differences between Frank and Jerry on this subject? Daniel Richtay@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/1/99 1:40:46 PM, Frank wrote: > > <<>This serious esoteric crisis broke out in 1946 with the claim of Conger, > > >three months after he took office as TS leader, to hold the same occult > > >status as HPB and forced the members to accept him as new Outer Head of the > > >ES. > > And Jerry S. responded, > > < > organization. I would challenge you to find anything "esoteric" at > > all in an outer organization changing its structure.>> > > Once again, I quite agree with Jerry. In my opinion something is not > "esoteric" because it is labeled that, or because someone told me it was > esoteric. The real esotericism, at least as far as the T.S. should be > concerned, lies with the inner unfoldment of the nature of each member, due to > devotion to the Gurus who brought the movement to the world and who (at first > and for a long time) represent the SELF. > > The Masters started the original E.S., and the followers broke it into pieces > during the time of Judge/Besant and then again and again and again. The > concern with each tiny piece (Point Loma, Pasadena, Adyar, Anthroposophy, > Roerich, Bailey) and speaking of each piece as if it were THE ONE seems quite > silly to me. Who cares exactly why the Point Loma group shook up in the 1940s > and some people went their separate ways? > > Do the Masters need a little esoteric group to work through? Can't > individuals grow spiritually through independent devotion to the Masters, > through study, through work for humanity? Is there anything "esoteric" > besides this? > > Rich > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 14 03:41:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id DAA29065 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 03:37:47 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <4280bce.36eb8327@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 04:36:39 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/14/99 4:55:54 AM, Daniel wrote: <> As explained by HPB herself, the Esoteric Section was for the "salvation of the exoteric work." By this I think she meant the demonstration of brotherhood as a FACT IN NATURE, and the establishment of nuclei for human unity. I think the E.S. was a last-ditch attempt at true unity and brotherhood, which the "outer" T.S. so sorely lacked. With such unity, the teachings could have been further amplified and spread before the close of the cycle in 1897-98. Whatever may have been the merits of the short-lived E.S., it is clear that it also never reached critical mass, or it never would have broken up over the Judge-Besant affair. In fact, the Judge-Besant affair would not have been possible had there been true unity and brotherliness. I do *not* think the Esoteric Section was primarily for the private instruction of the few in deeper mysteries, whatever esoteric papers may have been given to them. I think such instruction was merely to demonstrate more clearly and deeply than hitherto possible the real nature of the inner being, and the real FACT of the brotherhood of man. By their seven-fold pledge, the E.S. members committed themselves to being vessels of brotherhood and working centers of unity. They were meant to be models for the non-esoteric students to follow. This goes as well for the Inner Group of 6 men and 6 women in London. It was not for their personal benefit that they were "chosen," but for the vitilization and centripetal cohesion of the whole. Failing a real unified center, Masters had and have no choice but to work through individuals, as they did through HPB. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 14 05:56:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id FAA08369 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 05:49:18 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 05:48:59 -0600 (CST) From: M K Ramadoss To: theos-l@list.vnet.net, theos-l@list.vnet.net, theos-talk@theosophy.com cc: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Theos-World HAPPY99.. HOW TO GET RID! (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I found that I had the above virus in my attachment directory. If you find it you need to take action before it causes a lot of trouble M K Ramadoss =========================== Just yesterday I was informed about the existance of this virus (worm). Browsing Symantecs page, I found the following that might be usefull to get rid of the happy99.exe virus. By the way, it is supposed to be harmless. ***************************************** NORTON ANTIVIRUS RESEARCH CENTER Happy99.Worm VirusName: Happy99.WormAliases: Trojan.Happy99, I-Worm.HappyLikelihood:CommonRegion Reported:US, EuropeKeys:Trojan Horse, Worm Description: This is a worm program, NOT a virus. This program has reportedly been received through email spamming and USENET newsgroup posting. The file is usually named HAPPY99.EXE in the email or article attachment. When being executed, the program also opens a window entitled "Happy New Year 1999 !!" showing a firework display to disguise its other actions. The program copies itself as SKA.EXE and extracts a DLL that it carries as SKA.DLL into WINDOWS\SYSTEM directory. It also modifies WSOCK32.DLL in WINDOWS\SYSTEM directory and copies the original WSOCK32.DLL into WSOCK32.SKA. WSOCK32.DLL handles internet-connectivity in Windows 95 and 98. The modification to WSOCK32.DLL allows the worm routine to be triggered when a connect or send activity is detected. When such online activity occurs, the modified code loads the worm's SKA.DLL. This SKA.DLL creates a new email or a new article with UUENCODED HAPPY99.EXE inserted into the email or article. It then sends this email or posts this article. If WSOCK32.DLL is in use when the worm tries to modify it (i.e. a user is online), the worm adds a registry entry: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunOnce=SKA.EXE The registry entry loads the worm the next time Windows start. Removing the worm manually: 1.delete WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SKA.EXE 2.delete WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SKA.DLL 3.replace WINDOWS\SYSTEM\WSOCK32.DLL with WINDOWS\SYSTEM\WSOCK32.SKA 4.delete the downloaded file, usually named HAPPY99.EXE Safe Computing: This worm and other trojan-horse type programs demonstrate the need to practice safe computing. One should not execute any executable-file attachment (i.e. EXE, SHS, MS Word or MS Excel file) that comes from an email or a newsgroup article from an unknown or a untrusted source. Norton AntiVirus users can protect themselves from this worm by downloading the virus definitions updates released on Jan 28, 1999 or later either through LiveUpdate or from the following webpage: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/download.html Write-up by: Raul K. Elnitiarta January 28, 1999 -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 14 06:26:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA11097 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:13:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <6dae27d8.36eba7ab@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:12:27 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/14/99 4:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Richtay@aol.com writes: << I think the E.S. was a last-ditch attempt at true unity and brotherhood, which the "outer" T.S. so sorely lacked. >> And still does, I would add. So which is it, that that may not be a natural part of the human condition yet? True esoteric awareness or Human unity? <> It could have been a seven times seven-fold pledge and still would have meant nothing. Unless and until, enough of each members personality-identity, has been transformed into its essential spiritual nature, no amount of lip service works. The interesting point to ponder for me is, HPB knew this, Judge Knew this and I think Besant knew this. So what IS the value of pledge making and taking by personalities that do not have the Spiritual force yet developed, to actualize them? << Failing a real unified center, Masters had and have no choice but to work through individuals, as they did through HPB.>> So, here we are some hundred odd years later, and we are discussing topics like, why are the TS's falling apart, single nominee presidential elections, etc. I ask again, is it the work of HPB and the Masters that did not produce the hoped for results? Or, is it perhaps, that Human Unity is not an attainable goal on the Physical plane? Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 14 10:11:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA25960 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:04:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990314100330.00e95390@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:03:30 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History In-Reply-To: <6dae27d8.36eba7ab@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 07:12 AM 3/14/1999 EST, Louis wrote: >In a message dated 3/14/99 4:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Richtay@aol.com >writes: > ><<<< I think the E.S. was a last-ditch attempt at true unity and > brotherhood, which the "outer" T.S. so sorely lacked. >> > >And still does, I would add. So which is it, that that may not be a natural >part of the human condition yet? True esoteric awareness or Human unity? > ><<<E.S. members committed themselves to being vessels of brotherhood and working >centers of unity. They were meant to be models for the non-esoteric students >to follow.>> > >It could have been a seven times seven-fold pledge and still would have meant >nothing. Unless and until, enough of each members personality-identity, has >been transformed into its essential spiritual nature, no amount of lip service >works. The interesting point to ponder for me is, HPB knew this, Judge Knew >this and I think Besant knew this. So what IS the value of pledge making and >taking by personalities that do not have the Spiritual force yet developed, to >actualize them? > ><<<< Failing a real unified >center, Masters had and have no choice but to work through individuals, as >they did through HPB.>> > >So, here we are some hundred odd years later, and we are discussing topics >like, why are the TS's falling apart, single nominee presidential elections, >etc. I ask again, is it the work of HPB and the Masters that did not produce >the hoped for results? Or, is it perhaps, that Human Unity is not an >attainable goal on the Physical plane? leftIt was very clear from the early writings that the Brothers wanted a true Universal Brotherhood to be established wanted to have an impact on the well being of the Humanity. They did not make much of the occult instructions; chelaship, adeptship, working towards being inthe 6th root race, etc. And the Founders made the best of the available material -- people who are serious and were dedicated to the Cause. Now may be an opportunity to bypass all the organizations and the politics and get a real world wide nucleus of dedicated people involved in the next millenium using "unmoderated" Internet as the tool. In the Internet medium, all money and property issues are also avoided. All being treated as equal human beings, which cannot happen in any organization. Again per recent surveys, it is the affluent, educated younger generation which is using Internet generally and this group may be able to accomplish the task. In the Mahachohan letter which is considered by every theosophist from HPB onwards as the charter for the TS, it is clearly stated how the "elitist" group is impacting on the rest. The future impact of Internet has not yet been clearly understood by the present leaders as seen by their absence in the medium. Only time can tell where we will be in 10 years. ....mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 14 15:11:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA17441 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:56:53 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:54:42 -0800 Message-ID: <000301be6e65$440ce2c0$100e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6E22.35E9A2C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990314100330.00e95390@mail.eden.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6E22.35E9A2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mar 14th IT IS AGAIN NOT TRANSMITTING YOUR MESSAGE AT ALL Dal I can read it ---- but not PRINT it out. WHAT GIVES ? Strange. Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K Ramadoss Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 8:04 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History At 07:12 AM 3/14/1999 EST, Louis wrote: >In a message dated 3/14/99 4:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Richtay@aol.com >writes: > ><< I think the E.S. was a last-ditch attempt at true unity and > brotherhood, which the "outer" T.S. so sorely lacked. >> > >And still does, I would add. So which is it, that that may not be a natural >part of the human condition yet? True esoteric awareness or Human unity? > ><E.S. members committed themselves to being vessels of brotherhood and working >centers of unity. They were meant to be models for the non-esoteric students >to follow.>> > >It could have been a seven times seven-fold pledge and still would have meant >nothing. Unless and until, enough of each members personality-identity, has >been transformed into its essential spiritual nature, no amount of lip service >works. The interesting point to ponder for me is, HPB knew this, Judge Knew >this and I think Besant knew this. So what IS the value of pledge making and >taking by personalities that do not have the Spiritual force yet developed, to >actualize them? > ><< Failing a real unified >center, Masters had and have no choice but to work through individuals, as >they did through HPB.>> > >So, here we are some hundred odd years later, and we are discussing topics >like, why are the TS's falling apart, single nominee presidential elections, >etc. I ask again, is it the work of HPB and the Masters that did not produce >the hoped for results? Or, is it perhaps, that Human Unity is not an >attainable goal on the Physical plane? It was very clear from the early writings that the Brothers wanted a true Universal Brotherhood to be established wanted to have an impact on the well being of the Humanity. They did not make much of the occult instructions; chelaship, adeptship, working towards being in the 6th root race, etc. And the Founders made the best of the available material -- people who are serious and were dedicated to the Cause. Now may be an opportunity to bypass all the organizations and the politics and get a real world wide nucleus of dedicated people involved in the next millenium using "unmoderated" Internet as the tool. In the Internet medium, all money and property issues are also avoided. All being treated as equal human beings, which cannot happen in any organization. Again per recent surveys, it is the affluent, educated younger generation which is using Internet generally and this group may be able to accomplish the task. In the Maha-Chohan letter which is considered by every theosophist from HPB onwards as the charter for the TS, it is clearly stated how the "elitist" group is impacting on the rest. The future impact of Internet has not yet been clearly understood by the present leaders as seen by their absence in the medium. Only time can tell where we will be in 10 years. ....mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6E22.35E9A2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar=20 14th        IT IS AGAIN NOT = TRANSMITTING YOUR=20 MESSAGE AT ALL
 
Dal  I can read it ---- but not PRINT it out.  WHAT = GIVES=20 ?  Strange.
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K=20 Ramadoss
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 8:04 AM
To:=20 theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle = on=20 History

At 07:12 AM 3/14/1999 EST, Louis = wrote:
>In a=20 message dated 3/14/99 4:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 Richtay@aol.com
>writes:
>
><< I think the E.S. = was a=20 last-ditch attempt at true unity and
> brotherhood, which the=20 "outer" T.S. so sorely lacked. >>
>
>And = still does,=20 I would add. So which is it, that that may not be a natural
>part = of the=20 human condition yet? True esoteric awareness or Human=20 unity?
>
><<By their seven-fold pledge, = the
>E.S.=20 members committed themselves to being vessels of brotherhood and=20 working
>centers of unity. They were meant to be models for the=20 non-esoteric students
>to follow.>>
>
>It could = have=20 been a seven times seven-fold pledge and still would have = meant
>nothing.=20 Unless and until, enough of each members personality-identity, = has
>been=20 transformed into its essential spiritual nature, no amount of lip=20 service
>works. The interesting point to ponder for me is, HPB = knew this,=20 Judge Knew
>this and I think Besant knew this. So what IS the = value of=20 pledge making and
>taking by personalities that do not have the = Spiritual=20 force yet developed, to
>actualize them?
>
><< = Failing a=20 real unified
>center, Masters had and have no choice but to work = through=20 individuals, as
>they did through HPB.>>
>
>So, = here we=20 are some hundred odd years later, and we are discussing = topics
>like, why=20 are the TS's falling apart, single nominee presidential = elections,
>etc. I=20 ask again, is it the work of HPB and the Masters that did not = produce
>the=20 hoped for results? Or, is it perhaps, that Human Unity is not=20 an
>attainable goal on the Physical = plane?

It was very clear from the early = writings that the Brothers wanted a true Universal Brotherhood to be = established=20 wanted to have an impact on the well being of the Humanity. They did not = make=20 much of the occult instructions; chelaship, adeptship, working towards = being=20 in the 6th root race, etc. And the = Founders=20 made the best of the available material -- people who are serious and = were=20 dedicated to the Cause.

Now may be an opportunity to bypass all = the=20 organizations and the politics and get a real world wide nucleus of = dedicated=20 people involved in the next millenium using "unmoderated" = Internet as=20 the tool. In the Internet medium, all money and property issues are also = avoided. All being treated as equal human beings, which cannot happen in = any=20 organization.

Again per recent surveys, it is the affluent, = educated=20 younger generation which is using Internet generally and this group may = be able=20 to accomplish the task. In the Maha-Chohan=20 letter which is considered by every theosophist from HPB onwards as the = charter=20 for the TS, it is clearly stated how the "elitist" group is = impacting=20 on the rest.

The future impact of Internet has not yet been = clearly=20 understood by the present leaders as seen by their absence in the = medium. Only=20 time can tell where we will be in 10 years.

....mkr=20





-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical = Talk --=20 theos-talk@theosophy.com
Letters to the Editor, and discussion of=20 theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a = message=20 consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to=20 theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6E22.35E9A2C0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 14 16:41:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA25780 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:31:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990314163039.006967fc@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:30:39 -0600 To: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" , theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World Problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dallas: I suggest you switch to Eudora light which is freeware. I have never run into any problems at all. ...doss -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 09:14:12 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA32172 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:54:05 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:48:08 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Value of SD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Is this of value for Occultists ?<< Dallas, when I said that the SD was not essential for occult progress, I did not mean to say that it has no value. Of course it does. Its value lies in giving us a better worldview, one that includes spirituality. Most occultists use the worldview of the Qabalistic Tree of Life instead. It doesn't matter what model one uses as long as one has a good working model of some kind. I personally prefer HPB's. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 09:27:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA01092 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:05:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:00:16 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World The Lower Inner Planes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>There is a large and hazy area of confusion concerning the area which in Theosophy is called the Astral, and the Pranic. But the only way t find out if Theosophy provides useful information is for a person to read its literature (which by now is pretty well Indexed) and seek for information there.>> Dallas, there is a better way. Go there and enperience them for yourself. We don't have to be an Adept to do this. We go into these realms every time we fall asleep, every time we day-dream, every time we relect or turn inward. One of the biggest stumbling blocks to occultism is the idea that the astral and mental planes are "out there" somewhere beyond us. The fact is, our body is on the physical plane, our emotions are on the astral, and our thoughts are on the mental. Every human being is already on three planes (four if we count the etheric), but they are so close to us that we tend to ignore them. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 09:28:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA31474 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:47:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:42:25 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Ethics & Compassion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Interesting Idea, Compassion without ethics! I wouldn't have thought such a thing would be possible. If one actually experiences compassion, rather than intellectualize it, is it reasonable to expect unethical behavior to flow from that experience? Hmmmmm. Louis>> Well, its not a question of compassion without ethics. Obviously as children we learn ethical behavior first. The egocentric nature of children has to be outgrown before compassion can develop. What I am referring to is when we first tread the Path in any real meaningful way. Ethics, by definition, are sets of codes or ways of behavior--good and bad, shalts and shalt nots. They are usually ethnic or cultural, and change as a society changes. We in the West usually try to tread a spiritual Path using ethics, and it just doesn't work very well. Why? Because as long as we think of ourselves as ethical, we probably won't feel the need to develop compassion, which is essential for any real spiritual development. Ethical development, when done consciously, almost always is accompanied by feelings of superiority. Compassion does the opposite. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 09:42:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA02714 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:17:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990315151616.12200.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Mr Alan Donant changes his Conger "story" in a most significant way Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:16:16 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In Mr Alan Donant's article "Colonel Arthur L. Conger", as first published in "Theosophical History", one finds the assertion----- "On October 22, 1945, Colonel Conger was elected by the Cabinet as the Leader of the Theosophical Society. At this time he was confined to a wheelchair by Parkinson's disease. It was a prejudice against this illness that lay at the heart of the turmoil to come." page 45 In my recent criticism of this statement, I pointed out that Mr Donant gave no evidence to support his claim about the "prejudice". I went on to contend that what really "lay at the heart of the turmoil to come" was in fact Mr Conger's claims in regards to being the new head of the Covina T.S. Esoteric School. I quoted Mr Emmett Small's testimony (*ignored* by Mr Donant) which reads---- "The position that Colonel Conger was elected to fill, it should be emphasized, was one of purely exoteric and administrative authority. An E.S. Council at the time was directing the activities of the Esoteric Section. . . . . . . .Within three months of his election Col. Conger assumed headship of the E.S., declaring he held the same status as H.P.B. did. Within the next few months he had summarily dismissed from office all who did not immediately acknowledge him in this capacity, even though they had conscientiously asked for more time to give it careful and full consideration. Those so uncharitably and swiftly deprived of former duties and responsibilities included, among others, the Chairman (Iverson L. Harris) and the Secretary (W. Emmett Small) of the cabinet. . . . . . . . . . ." It is quite interesting to find that in the newly revised edition of the Conger article recently posted on the TUP Online website, Mr Donant has *changed the statement* (quoted at the beginning of this post) to read----- "For a few, it was a prejudice against this illness and his being head of the ES that lay at the heart of the turmoil to come." In the revised article, Mr Donant does *not* indicate why he has made this significant change from the original version in "Theosophical History." Also Mr Donant doesn't provide any new evidence in the revised version to support this change in his thesis. Why is he totally silent on this issue? No doubt, he has full access to many firsthand documents that would clarify this significant change he has made in his thesis. Very curious & strange! David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 10:24:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA09270 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:14:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:09:08 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Forgiveness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>DALLAS : WHO OR WHAT DOES THE FORGIVING ? IF NATURE IS IMPERSONAL AND THE LAWS AND RULES OF KARMA ARE IMMUTABLE, THEN WHAT KIND OF EXCEPTION WOULD PROVIDE THIS? >> We have to forgive ourselves. Forgiveness of others, coupled with self-forgiveness is essential to eliminate personal karma. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 10:39:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA10778 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:26:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <71d128a3.36ed346f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:25:19 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Ethics & Compassion Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/15/99 10:27:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << Ethical development, when done consciously, almost always is accompanied by feelings of superiority. Compassion does the opposite. >> We may be saying the same thing in different ways. For me, ethics and ethical behavior cannot truly exist outside of Compassion. First the journey takes one to compassionate consciousness, ethical behaviors flows from that experience. Since there can be no egotism in a truly compassionate consciousness, (they are mutually exclusive terms) personality disorders such as ethical abuse would not be consistent. By your phrase "done consciously" and "feelings of superiority" I understand you to mean intellectual rationalization and astral stimulation. I wonder what either one of those experiences have to do with an illumined state, such as compassion? Louis. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 11:09:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA16813 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:06:26 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:00:56 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Speaking Up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Jerry: I agree with Frank that we do have a duty to speak up and speak out in defence of HPB and her Teachers. I don't believe they did have a 'turn the other cheek' policy in this respect.>> I agree up to a point. I certainly "speak out" on issues, myself. But I do object to name calling. When Frank singles out CWL and Long as the two people most responsible for the TSs falling apart, I think that this borders on slander. I also don't agree with it. We have had a lot of CWL-bashing on this list over the years, and it has never helped anyone at all. It does no good to bash fellow Theosophists, especially dead ones when we have no idea what their motives were. I have no problem with bashing ideas or interpretations or even doctrines. I even disagree with HPB in a few areas, but have never "bashed" her personally nor anyone else. Pointing accusing fingers at dead people only aggravates those living readers who admire them and proves nothing. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 11:24:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA15448 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:57:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:52:17 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Nirvana and Karma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <> I hope that they did not say this. The Dzog Chen view (probably the highest Tibetan Buddhist school) is that both samsara and nirvana are part of maya. When I read their descriptions, it is pretty clear to me that samsara refers to the four lower solar planes, and nirvana to the higher three of our 7-plane solar system. Both must be transcended. I am assuming here that causality holds in all 7 planes. According to some magical/occult schools, personal karma is consumed somewhere in the three higher planes. But collective karma is only eliminated outside our 7-plane solar system altogether. So, I would think that your statement really depends on exactly how we define karma and nirvana. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 11:39:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA18383 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:17:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:12:22 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Deities & Archetypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Jerry, my sense is that latter day Jungian psychology has contributed a great deal to 'personalising' impersonal forces / archetypes. I notice how following this tradition people start 'people-ing' their 'inner world' with all kinds of archetypes (so called). All of them tend to be very human personifications, and at times even sub human. It's a bit like there has been a withdrawal of the 'projection' onto the divine but only to continue in another form. For example - my magician, my wise man / woman, my warrior & so on, & so on. What is your take on this? Regards, Peter>> Peter, I have always believed that the external gods and goddesses have as much reality (no more and no less) that the internal archetypes. The archetypes are impersonal. But when they are constellated (activated in someone) then they speak through symbols, and those symbols can, indeed, be taken personally. Jung called the personal interpretation of a symbol, a sign and carefully distinguished the two. That people today personalize the archetypes is no different than our ancestors who personalized the gods and goddesses. This is wrong, yet very human. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 11:54:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA22928 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:52:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:47:53 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Human Unity? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >Or, is it perhaps, that Human Unity is not an >attainable goal on the Physical plane? I do not believe that we are ready for any meaningful unity as yet. Still, they had to TRY... Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 12:09:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA22149 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:46:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:40:42 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Response to Daniel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com [Dan:]<> Although addresed to Rich, let me say that the Inner Group Teachings itself suggests that the reason was to answer questions and give out some more information to those few who were ready to hear it. This definition requires a qualified Teacher, which HPB certainly was. >>Also can any one tell me more about the debate between Frank and Jerry?>> The "debate" is simply that I believe the Pasadena version of the infamous Conger-Long episode, and Frank doesn't. And as some of you may know, Long was also in a wheel chair (polio, I believe). However, my real "debate" is not over what Frank said so much as how Frank said it (his most recent posting was much better). He claims to be a historian of sorts, and yet is taking sides as evidenced by his one-sided choice of words. I fully realize that history is subject to opinion, and many historical figures can be shown in good or poor lights depending on the choice of words used. We will never resolve the Conger-Long issue anymore than the Judge issue or the CWL issue, so the use of inflamatory phraseology is totally unnecessary. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 12:39:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA27490 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:27:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:22:28 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re. Ethics vs Compassion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <> Nothing at all. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 12:56:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA31528 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:51:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990315125120.0069420c@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:51:20 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Speaking Up In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 12:00 PM 3/15/1999 -0500, Gerald Schueler wrote: >I agree up to a point. I certainly "speak out" on issues, myself. But I >do object to name calling. When Frank singles out CWL and Long as the >two people most responsible for the TSs falling apart, I think that this >borders on slander. I agree. The present condition of TSs is perhaps the result of very many causes. It may be very difficult to identify and understand. If we can, then it is easy to fix it. Also I do not think any one or two person could be held responsible. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 13:26:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA03431 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:22:12 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:20:27 -0000 Message-ID: <000201be6f18$e1d6c6c0$a65795c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000301be6d58$fd504b40$a00e97cf@netway.nwc.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Dallas, you wrote: >I would like to have the reference you recall also. I cannot think of it either. However: Karma touches everything. It is an aspect of the ABSOLUTE. Under its reign Universes come and go. The imperishable MONADS that we are at core are also unalienable aspects (parts) of the ABSOLUTE. Are we not really speaking of "fields of force" on planes quite different from our merely physical. What is the MONAD ?< Yes, I know it sounds a strange thing to say that Nirvana cannot be reached by Karma, but it does make some sense, at least to me! Putting it simply - surely attainment of Nirvana essentialy involves 'merging' the individuality into Atma. Now Atma is a radiation of the Absolute (Parabrahm) and is neither your spirit or mine, but the one Universal Spirit, as HPB says in the Key to Theosophy. The Absolute can have nought to do with finite and conditioned existence, and is beyond the duality of 'cause and effect'.* Therefore that which is conditioned and finite cannot become the unconditioned and infinite. Nor can that which transcends the daulity of cause and effect be known as a result of that duality (ie 'good' or 'bad' Karma.) (*This is why, as I understand it, the Prateyaka Buddhas are regarded as selfish. Because once merged into Nirvana they can have no more effect on the conditioned wolrd of cause and effect, until the next 'round', manvantara.) This is where some of what Krishnamurti says speaks to me, when he talks about the conditioned can not know the 'unconditioned'. There are similarities in Zen Buddhism. I cannot find the Subba Row reference, but HPB says something which I believe does have a bearing on this question. I qoute it below: "Atma, the "Higher Self," is neither your Spirit nor mine, but like sunlight shines on all. It is the universally diffused "divine principle," and is inseparable from its one and absolute Meta-Spirit, as the sunbeam is inseparable from sunlight. "Buddhi (the spiritual soul) is only its vehicle. Neither each separately, nor the two collectively, are of any more use to the body of man, than sunlight and its beams are for a mass of granite buried in the earth, unless the divine Duad is assimilated by, and reflected in, some consciousness. Neither Atma nor Buddhi are ever reached by Karma, because the former is the highest aspect of Karma, its working agent of ITSELF in one aspect, and the other is unconscious on this plane." Key to Theosophy: Section 8 Best wishes Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of W. Dallas TenBroeck Sent: 13 March 1999 13:54 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Mar 13 1999 Dear Peter: I would like to have the reference you recall also. I cannot think of it either. However: Karma touches everything. It is an aspect of the ABSOLUTE. Under its reign Universes come and go. The imperishable MONADS that we are at core are also unalienable aspects (parts) of the ABSOLUTE. Are we not really speaking of "fields of force" on planes quite different from our merely physical. What is the MONAD ? I just posted to BN a small essay on the first moments of the resumption of evolution and compared it (at Reed's request) with the 3 "Qualities" or "Gunas" as described in the BHAGAVAD GITA. Does this in any way deal with your observation ? Perhaps not directly. Dal ================================ Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Peter Merriott Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:07 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Hi Dallas, You wrote: >There is no "remission of sins." And logically everyone is responsible for their choices. > I imagine you were challenging the Christian Church view here. Namely, that we can live an immoral life year after year and then have our sins absolved by God's forgiveness at the last minute, just before death. How very convenient! I can't find the reference at the moment, but I am sure that both HPB and Subba Row both state that Nirvana cannot be reached through Karma - because it is beyond the realm of cause and effect. Have you come across this? Best wishes Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: 12 March 1999 13:12 To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Remission of Sins >[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are now being show up in many areas. > While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize that "perversions" is a subjective call. I personally think that the attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but this is just my own opinion because other people like it. We have discussed this before, and again we can only agree to disagree here. There is absolutely no way I am prepared to believe your first statement because if true then liberation (mukti) would be impossible. I can only accept Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or consumption of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a possibility. If "sins" can not go into "remission" when seen as dualistic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied that our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless lifetimes can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single heartbeat. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 15:11:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA17051 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:03:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <15550f3.36ed7517@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:01:11 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Remission of Sins Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/15/99 7:26:09 PM, Peter quotes the Key to Theosophy: <<"Atma, the "Higher Self," is neither your Spirit nor mine, but like sunlight shines on all. It is the universally diffused "divine principle," and is inseparable from its one and absolute Meta-Spirit, as the sunbeam is inseparable from sunlight.>> If the universal Atman is already present, how can any activity (karma) "reach" it? No amount of activity (karma) can diminish, add to, or alter the Absolute in any way. So how could Nirvana be reached through activity? Rather, we must say with Blavatsky (and with Mahayana Buddhism) that the absolute consciousness has the appearance of being obscured due to accidental and defiling coverings (skandhas) or seeds (bijas). Activity (karma) created these temporary obscurations, and activity can remove them. But it is quite misleading, even false, to speak of "achieving" Nirvana. There is nothing to achieve, nothing to attain, nothing to do, IN REALITY. "It" is. And "we" are THAT. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 16:03:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA23286 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:51:31 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Forgiveness Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:49:25 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01be6f36$1351d600$ac0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Gerry: To me your answer is even more puzzling. Do you mean that the personal self forgives itself? They why make errors to begin with ? And how does "forgiving" in any way take the KARMA OF RESPONSIBILITY and of future suffering (atonement) either voluntary or forced by immutable Law, away ? Further how does the offender take care of the offended ? How is justice served it hat regard? Dal ================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 8:09 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Forgiveness >>DALLAS : WHO OR WHAT DOES THE FORGIVING ? IF NATURE IS IMPERSONAL AND THE LAWS AND RULES OF KARMA ARE IMMUTABLE, THEN WHAT KIND OF EXCEPTION WOULD PROVIDE THIS? >> We have to forgive ourselves. Forgiveness of others, coupled with self-forgiveness is essential to eliminate personal karma. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 16:18:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA23274 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:51:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Nirvana and Karma Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:49:21 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01be6f36$10b3f9a0$ac0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 15th Dear Gerry: In strict logic, the little that is given to us concerning ABSOLUTENESS implies that "Karma" is a part of THAT and springs from the ever "pulsing" aspect of "LIFE" (also an innate part - which is not a "part") as is "the open eye of the Dangma" of the Spiritually WISE (A THIRD INNATE ASPECT ?) Also, if on the rebirth of a whole UNIVERSE all the beings that participated in the activity of the last are reprecipitated, then their individual KARMA has to come along too. >From our point of view, here and now. When a Bodhisattva enters NIRVANA by choosing to, he cuts himself off (or rather the DHARMAKAYA vesture cuts him off) from the karma that is being generated here. If and when he returns after a very long cycle this will be caused by Karma again. (SD II 79-80 refers to this return.) Dal ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 8:52 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Nirvana and Karma <> I hope that they did not say this. The Dzog Chen view (probably the highest Tibetan Buddhist school) is that both samsara and nirvana are part of maya. When I read their descriptions, it is pretty clear to me that samsara refers to the four lower solar planes, and nirvana to the higher three of our 7-plane solar system. Both must be transcended. I am assuming here that causality holds in all 7 planes. According to some magical/occult schools, personal karma is consumed somewhere in the three higher planes. But collective karma is only eliminated outside our 7-plane solar system altogether. So, I would think that your statement really depends on exactly how we define karma and nirvana. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 16:31:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA23255 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:51:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The Lower Inner Planes Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:49:16 -0800 Message-ID: <000901be6f36$0db16800$ac0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 15th Dear Gerry: Well this life I do not feel equipped to launch myself into the unknown realms of the psychic, the astral and whatever. When I have acquired the capacity to control and to know how those realms work then it is time enough o have something for me to do with them. At the moment I feel no necessity to do that. I am patient, and in the meantime I study all I can of what has been said concerning them. In any case I must touch on them when this body of mine sleeps. But inasmuch as the brain rarely brings any definite memories, it is obvious to me that this is not the time to tempt fate and step into the unknown. I am sure that many have gone there, but what have they secured? Do they live better lives? Do they use whatever they experienced for the betterment of humanity ? What is the ethical and moral value of such adventure ? Dal ================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:00 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World The Lower Inner Planes >>There is a large and hazy area of confusion concerning the area which in Theosophy is called the Astral, and the Pranic. But the only way t find out if Theosophy provides useful information is for a person to read its literature (which by now is pretty well Indexed) and seek for information there.>> Dallas, there is a better way. Go there and enperience them for yourself. We don't have to be an Adept to do this. We go into these realms every time we fall asleep, every time we day-dream, every time we relect or turn inward. One of the biggest stumbling blocks to occultism is the idea that the astral and mental planes are "out there" somewhere beyond us. The fact is, our body is on the physical plane, our emotions are on the astral, and our thoughts are on the mental. Every human being is already on three planes (four if we count the etheric), but they are so close to us that we tend to ignore them. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 19:00:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA13846 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:54:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EDA288.7C91E37A@withoutwalls.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:15:07 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Remission of Sins References: <15550f3.36ed7517@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Richtay@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/15/99 7:26:09 PM, Peter quotes the Key to > Theosophy: > > <<"Atma, the "Higher Self," is neither your Spirit nor mine, but like > sunlight > shines on all. It is the universally diffused "divine principle," and > is > inseparable from its one and absolute Meta-Spirit, as the sunbeam is > inseparable from sunlight.>> > > If the universal Atman is already present, how can any activity > (karma) > "reach" it? > > No amount of activity (karma) can diminish, add to, or alter the > Absolute in > any way. So how could Nirvana be reached through activity? > > Rather, we must say with Blavatsky (and with Mahayana Buddhism) that > the > absolute consciousness has the appearance of being obscured due to > accidental > and defiling coverings (skandhas) or seeds (bijas). Activity (karma) > created > these temporary obscurations, and activity can remove them. > > But it is quite misleading, even false, to speak of "achieving" > Nirvana. > There is nothing to achieve, nothing to attain, nothing to do, IN > REALITY. > "It" is. And "we" are THAT. > > Rich Well said, Rich -- Mark "Tree's hills appear and dissappear the misty void my thoughts and silence." -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 19:37:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA11765 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:33:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EDA4FC.D0EC7C89@withoutwalls.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:25:35 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness References: <000b01be6f36$1351d600$ac0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Gerry: > > To me your answer is even more puzzling. Do you mean that the > personal self forgives itself? They why make errors to begin > with ? Yes. The personal self forgives itself and by doing so receives into its members the substance and energy of mercy, compassion, etc, which is from above. This acts to transmute (in an instant) the error and realign the personal with the impersonal. We make errors by ignorance of true nature. > And how does "forgiving" in any way take the KARMA OF > RESPONSIBILITY and of future suffering (atonement) either > voluntary or forced by immutable Law, away ? Further how does > the offender take care of the offended ? How is justice served > in that regard? > The responsibility becomes the duty to performi a continual forgiving of both the lower self and others. It may lessen, if not obliterate the karmic impact and reorient the contrite self to a better position to meet it's returning fate. It also forms a powerful link with spiritual resources with which to deal with the sins of the past. -- Mark > ================================== > > We have to forgive ourselves. Forgiveness of others, > coupled with self-forgiveness is essential to eliminate > personal karma. > > Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 19:52:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA10403 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:18:05 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EDA10D.E195DBA8@withoutwalls.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:08:47 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Deities & Archetypes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Gerald Schueler wrote: > >>Jerry, my sense is that latter day Jungian psychology has > contributed > a great deal to 'personalising' impersonal forces / archetypes. I > notice how following this tradition people start 'people-ing' their > 'inner world' with all kinds of archetypes (so called). All of them > tend to be very human personifications, and at times even sub human. > It's a bit like there has been a withdrawal of the 'projection' onto > the > divine but only to continue in another form. For example - my > magician, > my wise man / woman, my warrior & so on, & so on. What is your take > on > this? > Regards, > Peter>> > > Peter, I have always believed that the external gods and goddesses > have > as much reality (no more and no less) that the internal archetypes. > The > archetypes are impersonal. But when they are constellated (activated > in > someone) then they speak through symbols, and those symbols can, > indeed, > be taken personally. Jung called the personal interpretation of a > symbol, a sign and carefully distinguished the two. > > That people today personalize the archetypes is no different than our > ancestors who personalized the gods and goddesses. This is wrong, yet > very human. > > Jerry S. Jerry, I would question also, whether it is even possible to consciously perceive an archetypal symbol in action upon us, (whether from within or without) without personalizing it into a sign, by Jung's definition. I don't believe that we have a conscious relationship with the archetypes but through such a personal interpretation. That makes it a unique experience for each person, and by extensdion each cultural group (through agreement and traditionalization - although there is always subjectivization within cultural understanding) and thus aids in the individuation process. It's the understanding of the difference among any particular signs and the commonality of the underlying archetype that humanizes and breeds both brotherhood and compassion. Would you agree? Mark -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 21:04:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA21312 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:00:17 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EDA143.896B0FD4@withoutwalls.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:09:42 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Deities & Archetypes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Gerald Schueler wrote: > >>Jerry, my sense is that latter day Jungian psychology has > contributed > a great deal to 'personalising' impersonal forces / archetypes. I > notice how following this tradition people start 'people-ing' their > 'inner world' with all kinds of archetypes (so called). All of them > tend to be very human personifications, and at times even sub human. > It's a bit like there has been a withdrawal of the 'projection' onto > the > divine but only to continue in another form. For example - my > magician, > my wise man / woman, my warrior & so on, & so on. What is your take > on > this? > Regards, > Peter>> > > Peter, I have always believed that the external gods and goddesses > have > as much reality (no more and no less) that the internal archetypes. > The > archetypes are impersonal. But when they are constellated (activated > in > someone) then they speak through symbols, and those symbols can, > indeed, > be taken personally. Jung called the personal interpretation of a > symbol, a sign and carefully distinguished the two. > > That people today personalize the archetypes is no different than our > ancestors who personalized the gods and goddesses. This is wrong, yet > very human. > > Jerry S. Jerry, I would question also, whether it is even possible to consciously perceive an archetypal symbol in action upon us, (whether from within or without) without personalizing it into a sign, by Jung's definition. I don't believe that we have a conscious relationship with the archetypes but through such a personal interpretation. That makes it a unique experience for each person, and by extension each cultural group (through agreement and traditionalization - although there is always subjectivization within cultural understanding) and thus aids in the individuation process. It's the understanding of the difference among any particular signs and the commonality of the underlying archetype that humanizes and breeds both brotherhood and compassion. Would you agree? Mark -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 22:01:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id VAA27681 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:01:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Forgiveness Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:59:11 -0800 Message-ID: <001001be6f61$59736c40$ac0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <36EDA4FC.D0EC7C89@withoutwalls.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 15th Dear Mark: Do you mean that "forgiving" is you or I will escape the Karma of our wrong actions ? This is what I am questioning Also in fairness to those wronged, what part will I play in future to seeing they are assisted. If I am to be forgiven, what compensation do they get ? \\DAl ====================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kusek Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 4:26 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Gerry: > > To me your answer is even more puzzling. Do you mean that the > personal self forgives itself? They why make errors to begin > with ? Yes. The personal self forgives itself and by doing so receives into its members the substance and energy of mercy, compassion, etc, which is from above. This acts to transmute (in an instant) the error and realign the personal with the impersonal. We make errors by ignorance of true nature. > And how does "forgiving" in any way take the KARMA OF > RESPONSIBILITY and of future suffering (atonement) either > voluntary or forced by immutable Law, away ? Further how does > the offender take care of the offended ? How is justice served > in that regard? > The responsibility becomes the duty to performi a continual forgiving of both the lower self and others. It may lessen, if not obliterate the karmic impact and reorient the contrite self to a better position to meet it's returning fate. It also forms a powerful link with spiritual resources with which to deal with the sins of the past. -- Mark > ================================== > > We have to forgive ourselves. Forgiveness of others, > coupled with self-forgiveness is essential to eliminate > personal karma. > > Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 22:06:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id VAA27687 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:01:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Deities & Archetypes Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:59:14 -0800 Message-ID: <001101be6f61$5b836080$ac0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <36EDA10D.E195DBA8@withoutwalls.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 15th Regarding Jung and his views. Did he ever conceive of an immortal Ego within the personal Self ? What responsibility did it assume for the directing of the life and choices of individuals? What and how was the ethical nature of man the actor considered ? Why do people get hailed into Court? What is a crime ? and who dos it ? Dal -------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kusek Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 4:09 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Deities & Archetypes Gerald Schueler wrote: > >>Jerry, my sense is that latter day Jungian psychology has > contributed > a great deal to 'personalising' impersonal forces / archetypes. I > notice how following this tradition people start 'people-ing' their > 'inner world' with all kinds of archetypes (so called). All of them > tend to be very human personifications, and at times even sub human. > It's a bit like there has been a withdrawal of the 'projection' onto > the > divine but only to continue in another form. For example - my > magician, > my wise man / woman, my warrior & so on, & so on. What is your take > on > this? > Regards, > Peter>> > > Peter, I have always believed that the external gods and goddesses > have > as much reality (no more and no less) that the internal archetypes. > The > archetypes are impersonal. But when they are constellated (activated > in > someone) then they speak through symbols, and those symbols can, > indeed, > be taken personally. Jung called the personal interpretation of a > symbol, a sign and carefully distinguished the two. > > That people today personalize the archetypes is no different than our > ancestors who personalized the gods and goddesses. This is wrong, yet > very human. > > Jerry S. Jerry, I would question also, whether it is even possible to consciously perceive an archetypal symbol in action upon us, (whether from within or without) without personalizing it into a sign, by Jung's definition. I don't believe that we have a conscious relationship with the archetypes but through such a personal interpretation. That makes it a unique experience for each person, and by extensdion each cultural group (through agreement and traditionalization - although there is always subjectivization within cultural understanding) and thus aids in the individuation process. It's the understanding of the difference among any particular signs and the commonality of the underlying archetype that humanizes and breeds both brotherhood and compassion. Would you agree? Mark -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 15 22:10:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id VAA31777 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:44:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990316034132.7273.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Robert Crosbie: His Special Status in the ULT's "history" of modern Theosophy Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:41:29 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a series of articles appearing in "Theosophy" magazine, the U.L.T.'s official journal, Mr Robert Crosbie made a series of claims about W Q Judge, about the various esoteric sections then in existence & about the true School of the Masters. The following excerpts give some indication of Crosbie's claims--- "H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q. Judge, in their capacity of Messengers, cannot be separated; They stand or fall together. . . ." "Theosophy," February 1915. "H.P.B. and W.Q.J. came from *another world*, separated from human consciousness by a great gulf. They established a bridge between their world and ours. They were in constant connection and communication with the Lodge . . . ." "Theosophy," July 1915. ". . . Those who represented the Masters of the Great Lodge were not casual students attracted to a philosophy, nor mere tyros in occultism, but Initiates-----masquerading in the mortal garments known as H.P. Blavatsky and William Q. Judge. This is a matter of knowledge to living persons today." "Theosophy," April 1915. In regards to Crosbie's last sentence, who were these "living persons" about whom Robert Crosbie was writing? How does he know about this? Was Mr Crosbie one of those "living persons"? ". . . the various theosophical societies and esoteric sections of the day are in no sense representative of the School of the Masters or the Theosophical Movement. . . .The Anciently universal Wisdom-Religion, the School of the Masters and the Theosophical Movement are in unbroken continuity of existence to-day as always. . . .Now, as always, they have their representatives and agents among men, who cannot be found out by any but those who have earned the right to know them. . . ." "Theosophy," February 1915 Who are these agents, one might ask? "Today, after a quarter of a century, there are no less than three widely heralded ---and a half dozen lesser known---'outer heads,' 'esoteric sections,' 'visible agents,' and what-not, all issuing 'orders,' 'instructions,' and 'teachings,' professedly emanating from the Masters of H.P.B. and from H.P.B. herself. . . .No Brahmanism, no Catholicism, no Jesuitry, has ever exceeded the arrogance of its pretensions to spiritual authority on the part of its leaders. . . ." "Theosophy," July 1915. Notice that Mr Crosbie is not shy in dishing out harsh criticism of the various Esoteric Sections of Mrs Besant, Mrs Tingley, Mr Hargrove & others. These various esoteric sections were private organizations. Why was it Mr Crosbie's business to harshly criticize what was going on in private groups? Was it any of his business? Would our presentday Mr Richard Taylor chastise Mr Crosbie for commenting on things which were really none of his business? Again how does Robert Crosbie know these "facts"? These are "big" claims & strong words on Mr Crosbie's part. "If, then, the true Theosophical Movement, and the true Chelas of the School of the Masters are not to be found among those who have lost the point of contact with the Masters, while yet loudly proclaiming themselves Initiates and Outer and Inner Heads of this, that, and the other theosophical society and esoteric section, where may they be discerned? . . ." "Theosophy," March 1915 Yes, tell us Mr Crosbie, how may they be discerned? ". . . the actual name of the School of the Masters [is not] used by any of the so-called esoteric sections of the now numerous Theosophical Societies." How does Robert Crosbie know this? Does he have "inside" information? "Much of the instructions and communications in connection with the Esoteric Section of the Theosophical Society, and much regarding its history, are necessarily of such a pledged or sacred character that they cannot be made public. But enough is believed to be of public record to make possible a clear tracing of the lines of cause and effect for the benefit of all students, and definite indices for all who may come in touch with the private papers of the Section." Who are the persons "who may come in touch with the private papers of the Section"? To what is Crosbie really referring? Is Mr Crosbie actually referring in a veiled way to the members of his own esoteric school called by the name "The Dzyan Esoteric School"? "After her [H.P.B.'s] death in 1891, the Esoteric Section--now School [the Second Section] -- was reorganized. Mr. Judge was looked to and accepted by all as the LINK between the School [2nd Section] and the Masters [1st Section], and between the School [2nd Section]and the Society [3rd Section]. It is clear in our minds that the last phrase of H.P.B.: 'KEEP THE LINK UNBROKEN; DO NOT LET MY LAST INCARNATION BE A FAILURE,' *referred directly to Mr. Judge.*" THEOSOPHY magazine, JUNE 1915, page 371 How does Mr Crosbie know all of this? Even more importantly, what happened to the LINK at Mr Judge's death? In 1896 was the link finally broken? Mr Crosbie doesn't directly tell us any of this information. Yet some four years later, in 1919, Mr John Garrigues declared in Mr Crosbie's obituary in THEOSOPHY magazine--- "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second Section [the Esoteric School] of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge in 1896, and in 1907--just eleven years later--made that link once more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section was restored by the formation of the United Lodge of Theosophists...." THEOSOPHY magazine, Volume 7, page 289. In regards to the "Third Section" said to be restored by the formation of the U.L.T., Mr Crosbie had written four years previously--- "The Theosophical Society as a whole---meaning thereby the 'Third Section' of the original foundation---definitely broke off its connection with the Masters at the period of the Coulomb conspiracy in 1884-5. . . ." "Theosophy," June 1915. Mr Garrigue goes on to make the following claims---- "H.P. Blavatsky, as all know, was the Mother and Creator of the Theosophical Movement of the nineteenth century. . . . [Concerning W Judge] H.P.B.'s statements [are clear] that he was the Preserver of Theosophy and the Heart and Soul of the Second [Esoteric] Section. Upon her death Mr. Judge was compelled by the exigencies of the Movement to stand in her stead. . . ." "There is always one Witness on the scene. After the death of Mr. Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken. . . .None at the time suspected, and none has to this day suspected, that the quiet, earnest, steadfast man whose heart and soul were assimilated to the nature of H.P.B. and W.Q.J. was to be in fact the agent for the regeneration of the Theosophical Movement on the lines laid down from the beginning by the Masters. H.P.B. was the Creator, W.Q.J. was the Preserver, and Robert Crosbie was the Regenerator of pure Theosophy." This is quite an astounding claim made by Mr Garriques. How did Mr Crosbie keep "the link unbroken"? ". . . The hints she [H.P.B.] gave in relation to Mr. Judge were not grasped by the ambitious, the greedy for occult preferment. . . .The hints Mr. Judge gave in regard to Mr. Crosbie were not perceived by those whose only thought was their own advancement or their own position. After the death of H.P.B., Mr. Judge gave out such statements in regard to her nature and mission as, if taken, would have shown the students where to find the link of the Dzyan. So, in like manner, after the death of Mr. Judge, Robert Crosbie gave out such statements in respect of Mr. Judge as, if taken, would have preserved the unity of all the student body of Theosophists." ". . . In the years from 1896 to 1906, Mr. Crosbie did what could be done for those whose lack of discrimination placed them at the mercy of claimants and self-styled agents of the Masters. Through the long roll of passing years he remained faithful and true without variableness or the shadow of turning, to Masters, Their Message and Their Messengers. When the time of trial was over he found grateful and loyal comrades to hold up his hands in the gigantic task of restoring that which had become lost and obscured. The work [was] revivified in 1906 . . . ." >From the above it is obvious that Mr Garriques is making special claims about Robert Crosbie as well as giving Mr Crosbie a very unique status. These claims were believed in at least by the inner circle of the Los Angeles U.L.T. Mr Garriques fails to tell his readers that between 1896 and 1904 Mr Crosbie was one of those who also lacked discrimination and had placed himself at the mercy of one claimant, Mrs Katherine Tingley. Mr Garriques also fails to mention that during the years in question Mr Crosbie had proclaimed his undying allegiance to Mrs Tingley, and had defended her in the strongest of terms as the true & only successor to H.P.B. and W.Q.J. But by 1915 Mr Crosbie was writing a very different history concerning H.P.B., W.Q.J. & K.T. Mrs Tingley was no longer in the picture. And behind the scenes, various claims were being made by & about Mr Crosbie as the agent, as the link, etc. to the School of the Masters. My completed paper will also chronicle Mr Crosbie's strong allegiance & defense of Mrs Tingley. This information is very important when reading & evaluating what Mr Crosbie was claiming in the pages of "Theosophy" magazine or what Mr Garriques et al would assert in their 1925 "Theosophical Movement" volume. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 03:00:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id CAA18858 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:27:39 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:25:49 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Robert Crosbie: His Special Status in the ULT's "history" of modern Theosophy Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/16/99 4:09:48 AM, davidgreen@hotmail.com writes: >". . . the various theosophical societies and esoteric sections of the >day are in no sense representative of the School of the Masters or the >Theosophical Movement. . . .The Anciently universal Wisdom-Religion, the >School of the Masters and the Theosophical Movement are in unbroken >continuity of existence to-day as always. . . .Now, as always, they have >their representatives and agents among men, who cannot be found out by >any but those who have earned the right to know them. . . ." >"Theosophy," February 1915 > >Who are these agents, one might ask? Can you prove that you have earned the right to know? If so, I'll tell you? -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 03:18:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id CAA19878 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:47:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <7072d029.36ee1a3d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:45:49 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Robert Crosbie: His Special Status in the ULT's "history" of modern Theosophy Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Referring to your following questioning of the character, motives and credibility of Robert Crosbie... As a supposed historical scholar, I would think that you would study the writings of RC and find out directly for yourself instead of referring to dubious second hand accounts of long dead others who had their own axes to grind--as you apparently also have. As for the questions you ask directly of Mr. Crosbie... They smack of personal derogation by implication and innuendo, and I don't think he would waste time answering them, even if he could. LHM In a message dated 3/16/99 4:09:48 AM, davidgreen@hotmail.com writes: > >In a series of articles appearing in "Theosophy" magazine, the U.L.T.'s > >official journal, Mr Robert Crosbie made a series of claims about W Q >Judge, about the various esoteric sections then in existence & about the > >true School of the Masters. The following excerpts give some indication > >of Crosbie's claims--- > >"H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q. Judge, in their capacity of Messengers, cannot > >be separated; They stand or fall together. . . ." "Theosophy," February > >1915. > >"H.P.B. and W.Q.J. came from *another world*, separated from human >consciousness by a great gulf. They established a bridge between their > >world and ours. They were in constant connection and communication with > >the Lodge . . . ." "Theosophy," July 1915. > >". . . Those who represented the Masters of the Great Lodge were not >casual students attracted to a philosophy, nor mere tyros in occultism, > >but Initiates-----masquerading in the mortal garments known as H.P. >Blavatsky and William Q. Judge. This is a matter of knowledge to living > >persons today." "Theosophy," April 1915. > >In regards to Crosbie's last sentence, who were these "living persons" > >about whom Robert Crosbie was writing? How does he know about this? >Was Mr Crosbie one of those "living persons"? > >". . . the various theosophical societies and esoteric sections of the > >day are in no sense representative of the School of the Masters or the > >Theosophical Movement. . . .The Anciently universal Wisdom-Religion, the > >School of the Masters and the Theosophical Movement are in unbroken >continuity of existence to-day as always. . . .Now, as always, they have > >their representatives and agents among men, who cannot be found out by > >any but those who have earned the right to know them. . . ." >"Theosophy," February 1915 > >Who are these agents, one might ask? > >"Today, after a quarter of a century, there are no less than three >widely heralded ---and a half dozen lesser known---'outer heads,' >'esoteric sections,' 'visible agents,' and what-not, all issuing >'orders,' 'instructions,' and 'teachings,' professedly emanating from >the Masters of H.P.B. and from H.P.B. herself. . . .No Brahmanism, no >Catholicism, no Jesuitry, has ever exceeded the arrogance of its >pretensions to spiritual authority on the part of its leaders. . . ." > >"Theosophy," July 1915. > >Notice that Mr Crosbie is not shy in dishing out harsh criticism of the > >various Esoteric Sections of Mrs Besant, Mrs Tingley, Mr Hargrove & >others. These various esoteric sections were private organizations. >Why was it Mr Crosbie's business to harshly criticize what was going on > >in private groups? Was it any of his business? Would our presentday Mr > >Richard Taylor chastise Mr Crosbie for commenting on things which were > >really none of his business? > >Again how does Robert Crosbie know these "facts"? These are "big" >claims & strong words on Mr Crosbie's part. > >"If, then, the true Theosophical Movement, and the true Chelas of the >School of the Masters are not to be found among those who have lost the > >point of contact with the Masters, while yet loudly proclaiming >themselves Initiates and Outer and Inner Heads of this, that, and the >other theosophical society and esoteric section, where may they be >discerned? . . ." "Theosophy," March 1915 > >Yes, tell us Mr Crosbie, how may they be discerned? > >". . . the actual name of the School of the Masters [is not] used by any > >of the so-called esoteric sections of the now numerous Theosophical >Societies." > >How does Robert Crosbie know this? Does he have "inside" information? > > >"Much of the instructions and communications in connection with the >Esoteric Section of the Theosophical Society, and much regarding its >history, are necessarily of such a pledged or sacred character that they > >cannot be made public. But enough is believed to be of public record to > >make possible a clear tracing of the lines of cause and effect for the > >benefit of all students, and definite indices for all who may come in >touch with the private papers of the Section." > >Who are the persons "who may come in touch with the private papers of >the Section"? To what is Crosbie really referring? Is Mr Crosbie >actually referring in a veiled way to the members of his own esoteric >school called by the name "The Dzyan Esoteric School"? > >"After her [H.P.B.'s] death in 1891, the Esoteric Section--now School >[the Second Section] -- was reorganized. Mr. Judge was looked to and >accepted by all as the LINK between the School [2nd Section] and the >Masters [1st Section], and between the School [2nd Section]and the >Society [3rd Section]. It is clear in our minds that the last phrase of > >H.P.B.: 'KEEP THE LINK UNBROKEN; DO NOT LET MY LAST INCARNATION BE A >FAILURE,' *referred directly to Mr. Judge.*" THEOSOPHY magazine, JUNE > >1915, page 371 > >How does Mr Crosbie know all of this? Even more importantly, what >happened to the LINK at Mr Judge's death? In 1896 was the link finally > >broken? Mr Crosbie doesn't directly tell us any of this information. > >Yet some four years later, in 1919, Mr John Garrigues declared in Mr >Crosbie's obituary in THEOSOPHY magazine--- > >"Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second Section [the > >Esoteric School] of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. >Judge in 1896, and in 1907--just eleven years later--made that link once > >more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section was >restored by the formation of the United Lodge of Theosophists...." >THEOSOPHY magazine, Volume 7, page 289. > >In regards to the "Third Section" said to be restored by the formation > >of the U.L.T., Mr Crosbie had written four years previously--- > >"The Theosophical Society as a whole---meaning thereby the 'Third >Section' of the original foundation---definitely broke off its >connection with the Masters at the period of the Coulomb conspiracy in > >1884-5. . . ." "Theosophy," June 1915. > >Mr Garrigue goes on to make the following claims---- > >"H.P. Blavatsky, as all know, was the Mother and Creator of the >Theosophical Movement of the nineteenth century. . . . [Concerning W >Judge] H.P.B.'s statements [are clear] that he was the Preserver of >Theosophy and the Heart and Soul of the Second [Esoteric] Section. Upon > >her death Mr. Judge was compelled by the exigencies of the Movement to > >stand in her stead. . . ." > >"There is always one Witness on the scene. After the death of Mr. >Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken. . . .None at the time >suspected, and none has to this day suspected, that the quiet, earnest, > >steadfast man whose heart and soul were assimilated to the nature of >H.P.B. and W.Q.J. was to be in fact the agent for the regeneration of >the Theosophical Movement on the lines laid down from the beginning by > >the Masters. H.P.B. was the Creator, W.Q.J. was the Preserver, and >Robert Crosbie was the Regenerator of pure Theosophy." > >This is quite an astounding claim made by Mr Garriques. How did Mr >Crosbie keep "the link unbroken"? > >". . . The hints she [H.P.B.] gave in relation to Mr. Judge were not >grasped by the ambitious, the greedy for occult preferment. . . .The >hints Mr. Judge gave in regard to Mr. Crosbie were not perceived by >those whose only thought was their own advancement or their own >position. After the death of H.P.B., Mr. Judge gave out such statements > >in regard to her nature and mission as, if taken, would have shown the > >students where to find the link of the Dzyan. So, in like manner, after > >the death of Mr. Judge, Robert Crosbie gave out such statements in >respect of Mr. Judge as, if taken, would have preserved the unity of all > >the student body of Theosophists." > >". . . In the years from 1896 to 1906, Mr. Crosbie did what could be >done for those whose lack of discrimination placed them at the mercy of > >claimants and self-styled agents of the Masters. Through the long roll > >of passing years he remained faithful and true without variableness or > >the shadow of turning, to Masters, Their Message and Their Messengers. > >When the time of trial was over he found grateful and loyal comrades to > >hold up his hands in the gigantic task of restoring that which had >become lost and obscured. The work [was] revivified in 1906 . . . ." > >From the above it is obvious that Mr Garriques is making special claims > >about Robert Crosbie as well as giving Mr Crosbie a very unique status. > >These claims were believed in at least by the inner circle of the Los >Angeles U.L.T. > >Mr Garriques fails to tell his readers that between 1896 and 1904 Mr >Crosbie was one of those who also lacked discrimination and had placed > >himself at the mercy of one claimant, Mrs Katherine Tingley. Mr >Garriques also fails to mention that during the years in question Mr >Crosbie had proclaimed his undying allegiance to Mrs Tingley, and had >defended her in the strongest of terms as the true & only successor to > >H.P.B. and W.Q.J. But by 1915 Mr Crosbie was writing a very different > >history concerning H.P.B., W.Q.J. & K.T. Mrs Tingley was no longer in > >the picture. And behind the scenes, various claims were being made by & > >about Mr Crosbie as the agent, as the link, etc. to the School of the >Masters. > >My completed paper will also chronicle Mr Crosbie's strong allegiance & > >defense of Mrs Tingley. This information is very important when reading > >& evaluating what Mr Crosbie was claiming in the pages of "Theosophy" >magazine or what Mr Garriques et al would assert in their 1925 >"Theosophical Movement" volume. > >David Green -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 07:00:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA10214 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:40:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <22bde47b.36ee50c6@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:38:30 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/15/99 11:25:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << We have to forgive ourselves. Forgiveness of others, coupled with self-forgiveness is essential to eliminate personal karma. Jerry S. >> Jerry You make this sound like an act of personality rationalization. We (meaning the unenlightened lower triad) simply decides to intellectually "FORGIVE" ourselves and everyone else, and everything is better. What a strange notion. If this were the case, if we could really eliminate Karma, personal or otherwise, we could dispense with the higher states of consciousness. We could get it all done in the here and now. I ask again, with Dallas, WHO OR WHAT DOES THE FORGIVING? Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 08:00:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA11690 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:04:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: <31c5ddaf.36ee5664@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:02:28 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/16/99 7:59:50 AM, Teos9@aol.com writes: <> hello am new here, so you will have to forgive me for asking.. :-)...but what definition of forgiveness are we dealing with here? Thanks Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 08:19:12 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA12543 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:16:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:11:07 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Is Nirvana Karmic? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Putting it simply - surely attainment of Nirvana essentialy involves 'merging' the individuality into Atma.>> Putting it simply, such a "merging" is a cause and effect, and thus is karmic. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:00:44 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA17764 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:14:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:12:09 -0000 Message-ID: <000201be6fb6$fb0e4520$5a5c95c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <15550f3.36ed7517@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Rich, You wrote: > But it is quite misleading, even false, to speak of "achieving" Nirvana. > There is nothing to achieve, nothing to attain, nothing to do, IN REALITY. > "It" is. And "we" are THAT. I sort of agree with you - in so far as our essential nature is 'THAT', then there is nothing to be achieved. Our esential nature always is that which 'IT IS'. But there seems to be more doesn't there when we consider the nature of the Monadic evolution, the importance of acquiring Manas, 'self consciousness' and so on? Would it be 'better' to say that we need to merge this faculty of 'SELF-awareness' (Manas united to Atma-Buddhi) into Nirvana? And that this is what we need to achieve as a "universal brotherhood" in this Manvatara? Regards, Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:06:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA20679 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:41:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990316084100.010d7b5c@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:41:00 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <31c5ddaf.36ee5664@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Let me try. All our perceptions and actions are colored by what has happened in the past. We see anything happening at present "interpreted" or colored by the past and usually the perception and reaction to the present is distorted. Whether one argues such "distortion" is good or bad depends one own judgement which again is usually done based on the past perceptions and actions. If one simply forgets the past, and looks at each event and our perceptions in the present without the past trying to interpret, then it could be one way of forgiving. Seeing things as they are is one of the very difficult things. My 0.02. mkr At 08:02 AM 3/16/1999 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 3/16/99 7:59:50 AM, Teos9@aol.com writes: > ><>> > >hello am new here, so you will have to forgive me for asking.. :-)...but what >definition of forgiveness are we dealing with here? >Thanks >Sherry > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:21:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA25028 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:18:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Is Nirvana Karmic? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:16:32 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be6fbf$f96f2500$445895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Jerry, Peter wrote: > >>Putting it simply - surely attainment of Nirvana essentialy involves > 'merging' the individuality into Atma.>> Jerry replied: > Putting it simply, such a "merging" is a cause and effect, and > thus is karmic. Is it as 'simple' as that, Jerry? That's what I'm asking - albeit the words can get in the way, if we let them. If Parabrahm is beyond the duality of 'cause and effect'. and.. "If neither Atma nor Buddhi are ever reached by Karma" as HPB states. Then what does it mean to 'attain', or 'reach', Nirvana (or whatever words we might want to use)? Regards Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:29:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA17273 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:09:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:42:51 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Spiritual Selfishness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>(*This is why, as I understand it, the Prateyaka Buddhas are regarded as selfish. Because once merged into Nirvana they can have no more effect on the conditioned wolrd of cause and effect, until the next 'round', manvantara.)>> This is, I think, a misconception. Samsara and Nirvana act as polar opposites. When matter is strong, we tend toward the Arc of Descent. When spirit becomes strong, we tend toward the Arc of Ascent. Spirit becomes "strong" as Buddhas enter it, like suns shining continuously. Any one becomig a Buddha is automatically helping us by increasing the spiritual current behind the universe. According to Tibetan Buddhism, the Pratyekabuddha is "selfish" because she has not developed compassion for others, but rather sees others as maya. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:31:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA20323 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:38:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:32:55 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Response to Mark Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Jerry, I would question also, whether it is even possible to consciously perceive an archetypal symbol in action upon us, (whether from within or without) without personalizing it into a sign, by Jung's definition. >> Well, it is easier to see it in others than in oneself. But Jung did so, and said that we all should be able to do this. >>I don't believe that we have a conscious relationship with the archetypes but through such a personal interpretation. >> I agree that this is so for the vast majority of people. >>It's the understanding of the difference among any particular signs and the commonality of the underlying archetype that humanizes and breeds both brotherhood and compassion. Would you agree? Mark<< Agreed. Thanks Mark. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:38:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA17757 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:14:10 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Forgiveness Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:12:08 -0000 Message-ID: <000101be6fb6$f9e94d20$5a5c95c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001001be6f61$59736c40$ac0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Dal, Mark & Jerry, I think I can understand Dal's puzzlement here. I wonder if Mark And Jerry are mixing together two different things - states of mind and Karma? As I understand it, various Buddhist and Yoga practices maintain that the energy associated with certain 'wholesome' states of mind can uproot and destroy the 'impurities', 'defilements' that exist in the mind. However, we also have to be careful not to re-create them. But as far as the consequences (Karma) following on from our prevous actions - these remain. The notion that we can disolve our Karma along with the 'defilements' seems, to me, to be a variation on the Christian theme where we can live an immoral life, doing great harm to others, providing we have forgiveness at the end. Actually it is slightly worse, for what seems to be suggested is that we don't even have to ask for forgiveness. We simply need to forgive ourselves in order to absolve ourselves of our deeds and their consequences. The analogy that comes to mind for me is as follows. In his desire to harm others, a man fires a rocket on a nearby city. While the rocket is in the air the man has a complete change of heart. He realises the error of his ways and forgives both himself and his neighbours for past harm done. Just after this the rocket lands, killing many, and causing suffering to the lives of thousands for generations to come. Theosophy would say that the man is still Karmically responsible for the consequences of his actions even if he became an Arhat in that very lifetime. HPB writes in the Key to Theosophy, Section 11: "Karma gives back to every man the actual consequences of his own actions, without any regard to their moral character; but since he receives his due for all, it is obvious that he will be made to atone for all sufferings which he has caused, just as he will reap in joy and gladness the fruits of all the happiness and harmony he had helped to produce." Regards Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:39:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA19681 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:32:14 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:26:48 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World What Good are OBEs. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <> Fair question. I can only speak for myself. I learned one very valuable lesson by doing this--that we are always conscious of something. Consciousness, per se, goes on wherever we are, 24 hours, never ending. Our sense of identity changes all the time, but consciousness per se goes on forever. This lesson has given me a sense of peace and contentment that I did not have before. Reading it in books didn't help me because I had to take it on faith. Now I know, and am content and have no fear of death because I know that consciousness survives everything. There are other lessons, but this has probably been the most important to me. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:43:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA21416 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:47:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:42:10 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World More on Karma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Do you mean that "forgiving" is you or I will escape the Karma of our wrong actions ? This is what I am questioning>> Dallas, according to G de Purucker, whom I greatly admire and respect, karma acts on each plane of our 7-plane solar system, so that there is physical karma, astral karma, mental karma, spiritual karma, and so on. When you talk about "our wrong actions" you are talking about physical karma. Actions generally express our thoughts and emotions, so my feeling here is that astral and mental karma are much more important than physical karma. When thinking and thus motivation change, we simply have to forgive past actions. To do otherwise is not only unChristian but also unTheosophical. I do not subscribe to the notion that each and every past action has to be re-dressed in the future. This is, I think, a pernicious idea that holds us to the Wheel of Life forever as endless prisoners. I do, however, subscribe to the notion that every mind must change from selfishness to compassion for others. It is astral and mental karma that must be addressed, not physical karma. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:43:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA16855 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:04:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:59:12 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Atma, Buddhi, and Karma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>"Neither Atma nor Buddhi are ever reached by Karma, because the former is the highest aspect of Karma, its working agent of ITSELF in one aspect, and the other is unconscious on this plane.">> Peter, HPB's words above can be taken in several ways. Karma begins with Atma, above the Abyss and within the three highest planes of our 7-plane system. She is implying here that our entire 7 plane system is karmic, and that therefore even nirvana is karmic. This is in agreement with Dzog Chen or Great Perfection. The word "reached" is tricky here, because we already are spiritual, and already have atman and buddhi, and so "reaching" can be equated to becoming aware of what is already there. This is in agreement with the teaching that a Buddha is simply a human being who is fully aware (or awake). >From yet another angle, we can't get there by karma, (i.e., by any single action) but rather by dropping or eliminating or consuming our karma. Buddhi is on a lower plane than atma, and serves as its vehicle. On the atmic plane, buddhi is unconscious, just like lower ego would be unconscious. Yet consciousness persists, but not in a vehicle as we understand it. This is in full agreement with the teaching that spiritual consciousness is "pure" and needs no vehicle. Just some thoughts. Thanks for the quote; I now see where you were coming from. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 09:44:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA18627 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:21:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:16:02 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Forgiveness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>To me your answer is even more puzzling. Do you mean that the personal self forgives itself? They why make errors to begin with ?>> Dallas, yes, the personal self has to forgive others as well as itself. Guilt, remorse, regret, and so on are all karmic binders that have to be dispelled. Logically, if we have lived countless lifetimes, it can be asumed that we have all done terrible things countless times in the past. We will never ever be able to "undo" all of them and the concept that we have to is what keeps the Wheel of Life going around and around forever. But forgiveness, when sincere, can end remorse, guilt, regret, shame, and so on. >>And how does "forgiving" in any way take the KARMA OF RESPONSIBILITY and of future suffering (atonement) either voluntary or forced by immutable Law, away ? Further how does the offender take care of the offended ? How is justice served it hat regard?>> Justice is never served by an eye for an eye. I do not believe that for a moment. Perhaps in a short term sense, but never in any long term meaningful way. But if a criminal really and truly changes and is sorry, has learned their lesson and will likely never do it again, then justice is truly served and what good does punishment do? When you speak of atonement and "future suffering" whom do you suppose is doing this? Is there a god with a gun to our head making us enter into a bad life to suffer for our past doings? I don't think so. We do it to ourselves. We pick out our own lives and live them according to our guilts, fears, loves, regrets, desires, and so on. Future lives of some kind will continue so long as these impetus forces within us continue. Grace comes from our Higher Self, when we are ready to receive it. Forgiveness of others and of ourselves goes a long way to decreasing these propelling forces so that we can enter a new life consciously and deliberately rather than karmically. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 12:27:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA14249 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:16:12 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:13:02 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 99-03-16 09:00:40 EST, you write: << hello am new here, so you will have to forgive me for asking.. :-)...but what definition of forgiveness are we dealing with here? Thanks Sherry >> And I'm wondering why the hell anyone would feel a need to be forgiven anyway. Chuck -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 12:40:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA15589 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:24:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:20:13 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 99-03-16 10:44:38 EST, you write: << But forgiveness, when sincere, can end remorse, guilt, regret, shame, and so on. >> So can reading a good self-help book and learning to laugh at yourself and the world. This nonsense about sin is one of the diseases left to us from the poor lunatics who founded the various religious traditions. Chuck -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 12:41:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA14909 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:20:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:17:31 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be6fe1$a474df00$950e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 In-Reply-To: <000201be6fb6$fb0e4520$5a5c95c1@et.u-net.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 16th Dear Peter and Rich could I but in a bit ? HPB in an article entitled ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA (Thst. Jan, 1886; HPB Articles, ULT Vol. III, p. 265) states: "...though merged entirely in PARABRAHM, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual, i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow Buddhi and the seventh principle into Devachan (Swarga) after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the Monad...." And there are several other statements made in the philosophy that say almost the same thing. [ Isis I xviii, 292, SD I 535fn, 453, 243, 266, II 232-3fn, 80, 198, 271, Mahat. Let 98, ] - some of these are suggestive. I always thought the statements about the "undying Race" SD II 275fn, 281 were very important also as they indicate what we can become if we "try." Dal ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Peter Merriott Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 6:12 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins Hi Rich, You wrote: > But it is quite misleading, even false, to speak of "achieving" Nirvana. > There is nothing to achieve, nothing to attain, nothing to do, IN REALITY. > "It" is. And "we" are THAT. I sort of agree with you - in so far as our essential nature is 'THAT', then there is nothing to be achieved. Our esential nature always is that which 'IT IS'. But there seems to be more doesn't there when we consider the nature of the Monadic evolution, the importance of acquiring Manas, 'self consciousness' and so on? Would it be 'better' to say that we need to merge this faculty of 'SELF-awareness' (Manas united to Atma-Buddhi) into Nirvana? And that this is what we need to achieve as a "universal brotherhood" in this Manvatara? Regards, Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 12:56:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA19017 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:49:49 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <6e97a767.36eea565@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:39:33 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Nirvana and appropriation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/16/99 3:00:08 PM, Peter wrote: <> One certainly might say that. I have suggested it is misleading and damaging to the philosophy to do so. Nirvana has become a casual term in the West, relating to happiness, a rock band, etc. etc. Once again, a grant term (not unlike "spirit" and other lofty symbols) has been dragged down, ever so slightly, with each passing generation. Nirvana is not something one "merges into" because it is already there. When one is swimming, one doesn't *then* prepare to merge into the water. The Absolute is not approached, encompassed, touched, visited, etc. etc. This is the meaning of the concept "Absolute," it bears *no* relationship to the finite except that IT IS. Rather than try to raise some lower, transient vehicle up to the level of the Absolute, which is utterly impossible even in thought, we should try to see through the lower vehicles to the transcendent Absolute which is ALREADY present. Another reason why Theosophists need to study Buddhism, even briefly, is because we borrow terms from Buddhism like "Nirvana," misuse them, and then defend that misuse as if the terms were our own. The same thing has happened with devachan, kama-loka, karma, fohat, chohan, etc. Theosophists appear to believe that HPB made up, or invented, or appropriated these words for her own use. If so, they why are they consistently terms of Mahayana Buddhism? And why does she use them accurately, when one traces them back to original Buddhist sources? If we learn what the original meaning of the terms were, I promise that *EVERY TIME* we will then go back to HPB's text and understand it better. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 13:09:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA20732 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:02:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Forgiveness Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:59:29 -0800 Message-ID: <000301be6fe7$80a6dbe0$950e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 In-Reply-To: <000101be6fb6$f9e94d20$5a5c95c1@et.u-net.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 16th Dear peter: As I see it, whenever we "take our Lower-Nature" in hand to analyze, and direct and control it, also to repress firmly but gently any attempt of it to employ self-serving means, then we (acting as the Higher Mind) are doing our job of retraining the lower mind, which is our representative in this personality and is the "brain-mind." Unfortunately, when we say "we," we most often mean the brain-mind of this personality and its host of wants and excuses. I find that the trend of modern psychology is to apologize and mitigate the situation and tell the poor little abused and repressed "brain-mind" : "Everything is OK, baby - forget the past. Go out and do some more sinning. Confess and do it some more." Unfortunately the law of the land does not see it so. It seems to consider integrity, fairness and right livelihood as the norm. Ideas anyone ? Dal ================================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Peter Merriott Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 6:12 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Forgiveness Dear Dal, Mark & Jerry, I think I can understand Dal's puzzlement here. I wonder if Mark And Jerry are mixing together two different things - states of mind and Karma? As I understand it, various Buddhist and Yoga practices maintain that the energy associated with certain 'wholesome' states of mind can uproot and destroy the 'impurities', 'defilements' that exist in the mind. However, we also have to be careful not to re-create them. But as far as the consequences (Karma) following on from our prevous actions - these remain. The notion that we can disolve our Karma along with the 'defilements' seems, to me, to be a variation on the Christian theme where we can live an immoral life, doing great harm to others, providing we have forgiveness at the end. Actually it is slightly worse, for what seems to be suggested is that we don't even have to ask for forgiveness. We simply need to forgive ourselves in order to absolve ourselves of our deeds and their consequences. The analogy that comes to mind for me is as follows. In his desire to harm others, a man fires a rocket on a nearby city. While the rocket is in the air the man has a complete change of heart. He realises the error of his ways and forgives both himself and his neighbours for past harm done. Just after this the rocket lands, killing many, and causing suffering to the lives of thousands for generations to come. Theosophy would say that the man is still Karmically responsible for the consequences of his actions even if he became an Arhat in that very lifetime. HPB writes in the Key to Theosophy, Section 11: "Karma gives back to every man the actual consequences of his own actions, without any regard to their moral character; but since he receives his due for all, it is obvious that he will be made to atone for all sufferings which he has caused, just as he will reap in joy and gladness the fruits of all the happiness and harmony he had helped to produce." Regards Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 13:23:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA18141 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:41:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World More on Karma = "forgiveness" and the Redress of Victims Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:38:37 -0800 Message-ID: <000201be6fe4$9816a4c0$950e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 16th Dear Gerry: How and where does Karma work for Individuals ? Very difficult to understand all or to fit in with our education, and some aspects are actually and seemingly repugnant to our own concepts. For understanding, one may fragment the understanding of KARMA as GdeP does. But what good does it do ? WE are taught that all Karma is generated primarily in our emotional nature (Kama) - desire and passion. Then the lower mind ( Kama-Manas) is invoked to seek ways and means of implementing what are unethical proposals. If Karma is a universal and impartial law that rules the whole of everything, then why should any transgression against honesty, fairness, openness, "treating others as we would be treated," etc.. have exceptions ? I always ask myself about the VICTIMS. How is their sorrow and pain, or loss violently taken from them by actions thoughts and feelings of ill-will get adjusted, compensated, etc. ? What are "accidents ?" [ I find that HPB addresses this in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY in several places. ] She finds no reason to legitimately set KARMA as fairness and justice aside for the special benefit, whether remembered or not of anyone. In such reading of GdeP as I have done, I have not found him to contradict this basic statement. But, personally I rely on HPB who first did all the teaching of any of the new crop of 'Theosophists" that emerged from the masses in 1874 and after including Olcott, Judge, Damodar, Subba Rao, Sinnett, and the rest. All of those relied on HPB and the Masters' writings (which came through her). As to later writers (including myself) they either did or did not obey the humble declaration of the Buddhist Monk-teachers, and preface their statements: "Thus have I heard...." I can only see the following as apposite: The Universe runs under immutable laws The Universe is eternal in the ultimate sense and boundless and indescribable. Human Monads are portions of that ONENESS. Every being of what ever kind is an integral part of the ONENESS. HENCE ALL HUMANS AND ALL OTHER BEINGS ARE MONADIC BROTHERS - The differences mirror their individual level of progress. There is an infinity of time within which to accomplish the long pilgrimage that leads to ALL-KNOWINGNESS, or Universal-Self-Consciousness. On this Procrustean bed how does "forgiveness" shape up? To me it is delusionary in all senses. Neither NATURE (the Univese) nor "WE" ever "forget." Our Personality of this life would very much like to escape the proddings of remorse and the memory of faults and errors. How does it set itself up to do this impossible task? It invents ways and means of securing some cozy corner in the fields of belief and starts to build a castle of "denial," and of "defensiveness." But we need to recognize this and ask ourselves, for our own "good' : why dos it do that, and what permanency does such a defence and denial give it ? If we are immortals does this carry over to the next life? Is it of any value to the next "personality" in our series hatched out by the SUTRATMA - THE "THREAD-SOUL" -- . WE all seek for truth. What is the truth of the matter not the sentiment. Who defends the rights of the victims to secure for them equitable redress ? If we made the error of acting as "agents" for their "bad Karma," then need we have done so? [ SD I 643 ] gives the area of reference to the operation of this aspect of Karma and ourselves. I have so much trouble with what I feel may be partial concepts. Dal ======================================== Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 6:42 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World More on Karma >>Do you mean that "forgiving" is you or I will escape the Karma of our wrong actions ? This is what I am questioning>> Dallas, according to G de Purucker, whom I greatly admire and respect, karma acts on each plane of our 7-plane solar system, so that there is physical karma, astral karma, mental karma, spiritual karma, and so on. When you talk about "our wrong actions" you are talking about physical karma. Actions generally express our thoughts and emotions, so my feeling here is that astral and mental karma are much more important than physical karma. When thinking and thus motivation change, we simply have to forgive past actions. To do otherwise is not only unChristian but also unTheosophical. I do not subscribe to the notion that each and every past action has to be re-dressed in the future. This is, I think, a pernicious idea that holds us to the Wheel of Life forever as endless prisoners. I do, however, subscribe to the notion that every mind must change from selfishness to compassion for others. It is astral and mental karma that must be addressed, not physical karma. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 13:53:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA26156 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:40:27 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EEB30C.96D26FCD@withoutwalls.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:37:55 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Deities & Archetypes Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: Mar 15th Regarding Jung and his views. Did he ever conceive of an immortal Ego within the personal Self ? What responsibility did it assume for the directing of the life and choices of individuals? >> Yes, transcendant, impersonal and universal (he didn't use textbook theosophical terminology though). The true center and core of the psyche. He called it SELF and said that both Buddha and Christ are apt symbols for IT. You really might like looking into Jung, he has a lot to offer. SELF, according to his view, is the innate evolutionary force of all our lives. It "assumes" the responsibility of (if you can really say that, rather it evinces in the developmental life of Man the power of) bringing the outer conscious personal psyche to the awareness of true nature, which he called the "individuation process," and again cited the life of Christ (among other god-men) as an example of the entire process. << What and how was the ethical nature of man the actor considered ? Why do people get hailed into Court? What is a crime ? and who does it ? >> Dallas, with the passion you have for reading and research, I would really suggest looking into Jung. I'm sure you will find more than what you are looking for, tons of food for thought and comparison. I'm suprised that you aren't already more familiar with him. -- Mark ---------------------------------------- Without Walls:An Internet Art Space email: mark@withoutwalls.com www.withoutwalls.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 14:08:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA25996 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:39:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EEB205.B0963B0@withoutwalls.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:33:32 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: Dear Mark: Do you mean that in "forgiving," you or I will escape the karma of our wrong actions? This is what I am questioning. >> Not escape. There is no escaping. As Jesus said, "not until every jot and tittle ..." We are called to spiritual maturity and responsibility. But, let's put it this way, light consumes darkness. You'll be better apt to deal with it if your heart is open and full of mercy than if it is hard, hateful or selfish. Mercy, compassion, forgiveness, whatever you want to call it, is an actual living flame, a real spiritual fire. Lord Buddha could have remained seated in enlightenment under the Bo tree. He did not. He was instead moved to get up and teach compassion. That's amazing. Rejoice in that. "Sing to love for Oh, twas He who won the valiant day. Strew the wreaths of Victory along the conquer's way. Yoke the Muses to His car. Let them sing each trophy won. While unumbered lips repeat, Love's victory is won." The act of forgiveness does at least two things. It allows energy and substance from the heart's inner nature to flood the outer person and effect an actual alchemical change in the conscious psyche. This promotes a certain freeing from influences and complexes that hinder and bind you to illusion and ignorance, while also aiding to outfit the lower nature to become an increasingly effective vehicle for it's transmission. It can indeed consume, in an instant, certain negative karmic influences. You don't have to mentally understand it in order for it to work. You simply know and that's enough. The other action I have observed is that it tends to mitigate the effects of misfortune and promote the effective means for it's resolution in direct proportion to it's continued presence in your life. The more the act of forgiveness becomes a part of regular spiritual practice, the more the healing effect gains momentum. The big idea is to become forgiveness in action where you are. The mystery is that your true identity and mercy are not two things. << Also in fairness to those wronged, what part will I play in the future to seeing they are assisted? If I am to be forgiven, what compensation do they get ? >> The work on your self is the greatest compensation they can receive from you. The best gift you can ever give them is the fruit of the experience of your own true nature as love. You can be THAT in action for them, now and in the future. Forgive them and you are forgiven. That is the teaching. What joyous Mystery! Who would elect to stem the tide of love? -- Mark "Blessed is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." ---------------------------------------- Without Walls:An Internet Art Space email: mark@withoutwalls.com www.withoutwalls.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 14:23:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA31699 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:22:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990316142141.00d8993c@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:21:41 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 01:20 PM 3/16/1999 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 99-03-16 10:44:38 EST, you write: > ><< But forgiveness, when > sincere, can end remorse, guilt, regret, shame, and so on. > >> > >So can reading a good self-help book and learning to laugh at yourself and the >world. This nonsense about sin is one of the diseases left to us from the >poor lunatics who founded the various religious traditions. > >Chuck Your comment reminds me of the Charlie Chaplin movie "Monseiur Verdeaux" where he tells a RC Priest that without sins, the priest would not have a job! ...mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 15:22:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA03648 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:57:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <000501be6fef$8a89b4e0$b28306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Slander Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:46:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >Whenever we > start to make derogatory remarks about another person, living or dead, > true or false, if those remarks have the potential to inspire animosity > in a reader, then they are slanderous and should be avoided. > > Jerry S. The Pasadena TS published a (in my humble opinion very good and invaluable) book by Vernon about the Coloumb conspiracy and the SPR. Madame Coloumb is therein very much critizised and have the potential to inspire animosity in some readers. Also a subsrciber to The Theos. Forum of Judge once canceled her subscribtion, writing to Judge, that his articles sometimes show a kind of "disharmony". According to the rule (??) mentioned above Theosophists are obliged to stop spreading the books of Judge and Harrison?? Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 15:28:40 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA03769 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:59:08 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <000401be6fef$89c04a60$b28306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:39:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE6FF5.83070AA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE6FF5.83070AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter, I am sorry, thank you for all in all agreement, but I didn't = wrote this: Frank >Frank: Where I don't agree with you is on the issue of criticism. I = don't think it says any where that the right to >criticise others is an = occult law, as you suggest. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE6FF5.83070AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peter, I = am sorry,=20 thank you for all in all agreement, but I didn't wrote = this:
Frank
 
>Frank: Where I don't agree with you is on the issue of=20 criticism.  I don't think it says any where that the right to = >criticise=20 others is an occult law, as you suggest. 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE6FF5.83070AA0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 15:38:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA06652 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:23:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:57:02 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/16/99 9:00:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Shersy17@aol.com writes: << but what definition of forgiveness are we dealing with here? >> Good question. I sort of jumped into the middle of this myself. However, judging from the communication between Dallas and Jerry regarding this subject, I would say they are talking about the forgiveness of transgressions against others as well as ourselves. Do you have other definitions? Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 16:39:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA14133 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:26:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: <7464e408.36eed949@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:20:57 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/16/99 4:38:06 PM, Teos9@aol.com writes: << would say they are talking about the forgiveness of transgressions against others as well as ourselves. Do you have other definitions? >> I heard a nice definition of forgiveness once..we no longer let the thoughts of what others have done to us, or we to them, control our thinking. (Let it go and get on with your life.) Peace Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 17:09:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA16133 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:49:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Deities & Archetypes Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:46:57 -0800 Message-ID: <000701be7007$4742e180$950e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 In-Reply-To: <36EEB30C.96D26FCD@withoutwalls.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 16 Yes Mark, I have a bit, but am also grateful for your explanation and pointing out what he said that approaches Theosophy. I had mislaid that memory ! Dal ======================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kusek Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:38 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Deities & Archetypes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: Mar 15th Regarding Jung and his views. Did he ever conceive of an immortal Ego within the personal Self ? What responsibility did it assume for the directing of the life and choices of individuals? >> Yes, transcendant, impersonal and universal (he didn't use textbook theosophical terminology though). The true center and core of the psyche. He called it SELF and said that both Buddha and Christ are apt symbols for IT. You really might like looking into Jung, he has a lot to offer. SELF, according to his view, is the innate evolutionary force of all our lives. It "assumes" the responsibility of (if you can really say that, rather it evinces in the developmental life of Man the power of) bringing the outer conscious personal psyche to the awareness of true nature, which he called the "individuation process," and again cited the life of Christ (among other god-men) as an example of the entire process. << What and how was the ethical nature of man the actor considered ? Why do people get hailed into Court? What is a crime ? and who does it ? >> Dallas, with the passion you have for reading and research, I would really suggest looking into Jung. I'm sure you will find more than what you are looking for, tons of food for thought and comparison. I'm suprised that you aren't already more familiar with him. -- Mark ---------------------------------------- Without Walls:An Internet Art Space email: mark@withoutwalls.com www.withoutwalls.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 17:24:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA16124 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:49:27 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Forgiveness Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:46:51 -0800 Message-ID: <000601be7007$43800d20$950e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 In-Reply-To: <36EEB205.B0963B0@withoutwalls.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 16 If I understand you right, Mark, we ought to "forgive" others, but not ourselves for making wrong choices and perhaps hurting others. With that I will agree full-heartedly. Thanks Dallas =========================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kusek Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:34 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness << W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: Dear Mark: Do you mean that in "forgiving," you or I will escape the karma of our wrong actions? This is what I am questioning. >> Not escape. There is no escaping. As Jesus said, "not until every jot and tittle ..." We are called to spiritual maturity and responsibility. But, let's put it this way, light consumes darkness. You'll be better apt to deal with it if your heart is open and full of mercy than if it is hard, hateful or selfish. Mercy, compassion, forgiveness, whatever you want to call it, is an actual living flame, a real spiritual fire. Lord Buddha could have remained seated in enlightenment under the Bo tree. He did not. He was instead moved to get up and teach compassion. That's amazing. Rejoice in that. "Sing to love for Oh, twas He who won the valiant day. Strew the wreaths of Victory along the conquer's way. Yoke the Muses to His car. Let them sing each trophy won. While unumbered lips repeat, Love's victory is won." The act of forgiveness does at least two things. It allows energy and substance from the heart's inner nature to flood the outer person and effect an actual alchemical change in the conscious psyche. This promotes a certain freeing from influences and complexes that hinder and bind you to illusion and ignorance, while also aiding to outfit the lower nature to become an increasingly effective vehicle for it's transmission. It can indeed consume, in an instant, certain negative karmic influences. You don't have to mentally understand it in order for it to work. You simply know and that's enough. The other action I have observed is that it tends to mitigate the effects of misfortune and promote the effective means for it's resolution in direct proportion to it's continued presence in your life. The more the act of forgiveness becomes a part of regular spiritual practice, the more the healing effect gains momentum. The big idea is to become forgiveness in action where you are. The mystery is that your true identity and mercy are not two things. << Also in fairness to those wronged, what part will I play in the future to seeing they are assisted? If I am to be forgiven, what compensation do they get ? >> The work on your self is the greatest compensation they can receive from you. The best gift you can ever give them is the fruit of the experience of your own true nature as love. You can be THAT in action for them, now and in the future. Forgive them and you are forgiven. That is the teaching. What joyous Mystery! Who would elect to stem the tide of love? -- Mark "Blessed is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." ---------------------------------------- Without Walls:An Internet Art Space email: mark@withoutwalls.com www.withoutwalls.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 18:54:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA26615 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:41:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Theos-World Some Great Ideas to be found in THE SECRET DOCTRINE == Hidden Hints Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:30:18 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01be7015$ba0d23c0$950e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 16th >From Theosophical literature: These statements are offered as evidence of the great unity that the Secret Doctrine advances for us to consider. Some are easy to grasp and others may require much thought and considerations as we seek to fit them in the entire mosaic of Universal Evolution. Often one hears the question: "What is the cause of all this?" "Why am I here?" If one puts together in various relationships the key ideas - hidden like pearls in the uncouth oysters of words and ancient usage, the unifying aspects of statement and though become clearer. At no time can be a "quick study." All statements are made in sincerity and with the desire that they be thought over analyzed, and verified. WE have to do this independently. It is not safe to take the explanation or the word of "another," however learned or "authoritative" they may seem. TRUTH has to be learned and appreciated by each, as it is present in his or her own heart. We all share equally in the potentials of knowledge. Our progress and contribution is verification, and application of the facts perceived in our own lives. -------------------- "The pivotal doctrine of Esoteric philosophy admits no privileges or special gifts in man, save those won by his own Ego through personal effort and merit throughout a long series of metempsychoses and reincarnations." SD I 17 "Occultism can neither be taught nor learned in a "few easy lessons" - it has to been proposed to begin at the foundations and reconstruct our entire knowledge of Nature and of man; to show the unity and fundamentals of the world's religions; to eliminate from Science all its "missing links;" to make Agnosticism gnostic; and to place the science of psychology and the nature an laws of mind and soul over against "Mediumship." WQJ Articles I 35 "...the one fundamental law in Occult Science: "The radical unity of the ultimate essence of each constituent part of compounds in Nature-from Star to mineral Atom, from the highest Dhyan Chohan to the smallest infusoria and whether applied to the spiritual, intellectual, or physical worlds." SD I 120 "The Doctrine teaches that, in order to become a divine, fully conscious god,--aye, even the highest-the Spiritual primeval INTELLIGENCES must pass through the human stage. [those who "have reached the appropriate equilibrium between matter and spirit], as "we" have now, since the middle point of the Fourth Race of the fourth Round [Atlantean Race, a little over 18 million years ago] was passed. Each entity must have won for itself the right of becoming divine, through self-experience." AS I 106 "...for every atom in the Universe has the potentiality of self-consciousness in it, and is, like the Monads of Leibnitz, a Universe in itself, and "for" itself." SD I 107 "...Nature geometrizes universally. In all her manifestations. There is an inherent law...by which Nature correlates her geometrical forms...and in which there is no place for accident or chance. It is a fundamental law in Occultism that there is no rest or cessation of motion in Nature." SD I 97 "...in order to obtain clear perception of it [the Great Mystery] one has first of all to admit the postulate of a universally diffused, omnipresent, eternal Deity in Nature; secondly, to have fathomed the mystery of electricity in its true essence; and thirdly, to credit man with being the septenary symbol, on the terrestrial plane, of the one Great UNIT (the Logos), which is Itself the Seven vowelled sign, the Breath crystallized into the word." SD I 79 "Light is matter, and DARKNESS pure Spirit. Darkness, in its radical, metaphysical basis, is subjective and absolute light; while the latter (light) in all its seeming effulgence and glory, is merely a mass of shadows, as it can never be eternal, and is simply an illusion, or Maya." SD I 70 "Above, the Son is the whole Kosmos; below, he is MANKIND." SD I 60 "The Boundless can have no relation to the bounded and the conditioned. In the occult teachings, the Unknown and the Unknowable MOVER, or the Self-Existing, is the absolute divine Essence. And thus being ABSOLUTE Consciousness, and ABSOLUTE Motion-to the limited senses of those who describe this indescribable-it is unconsciousness and immoveableness. Concrete consciousness cannot be predicated of abstract Consciousness, any more than the quality wet can be predicated of water...Consciousness implies limitations and qualifications; something to be conscious of, and someone to be conscious of it. But ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, contains the cognizer, the thing cognized and the cognition, all three in itself and all three ONE." SD I 56 "The idea that things can cease to exist and still BE, is a fundamental one in Eastern psychology." SD I 54 "Paranishpana...is the "summum bonum," the Absolute, hence the same as Paranirvana. Besides being the final state it is that condition of subjectivity which has no relation to anything but the one Absolute Truth (Para-martha-satya) on its plane. It is that state which leads one to appreciate correctly the full meaning of Non-Being, which, as explained, is ABSOLUTE BEING... The condition of Paranishpanna, without Paramartha, the Self-analysing consciousness (Svasamvedana), is no bliss, but simply extinction (for Seven Eternities). SD I 53 "Only the liberated Spirit is able to faintly realize the nature of the source whence it sprang and wither it must eventually return. . . As the highest Dhyan Chohan, however, can but bow it ignorance before the awful mystery of Absolute Being...the Finite cannot conceive the Infinite, nor can it apply its own standard of mental experiences, how can it be said that the "Unconscious" and the Absolute can have even an instinctive impulse or hope of attaining clear self-consciousness?. . .the Occultist would say that it applies perfectly to the awakened MAHAT, the Universal Mind already projected into the phenomenal world as the first aspect of the changeless ABSOLUTE, but never to the latter. "Spirit and Mater, or Purusha and Prakriti are but the two primeval aspects of the One and Secondless," we are taught." SD I 51 "The Secret doctrine carries this idea into the region of metaphysics and postulates a "One form of Existence" as the basis and source of all things...The Puranic commentators explain it by Karana-"Cause"-but the Esoteric philosophy, by the IDEAL SPIRIT OF THAT CAUSE." SD I 46 "What is time, for instance, but the panoramic succession of our states of consciousness?" SD I 44 "The Secret Doctrine teaches the progressive development of everything, worlds as well as atoms; and this stupendous development has neither conceivable beginning nor imaginable end. Our "Universe" is only one of an infinite number of Universes, all of them "Sons of Necessity," because links in the great Cosmic chain of Universes, each one standing in the relation of an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its successor." SD I 43 "...the upward progress of the Ego is a series of progressive awakenings." SD I 40 "Nothing is permanent except the one hidden ABSOLUTE EXISTENCE, which contains in itself the noumena of all realities...all things are relatively real, for the cognizer is also a reflection, and the things cognized are therefore as real to him as himself...Whatever plane our consciousness may be acting in, both we and the things belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only realities." SD I 39-40 "Mind is a name given to the sum or the states of Consciousness grouped under thought, Will, and Feeling...the "UNIVERSAL MIND" remains as a permanent possibility of mental action, or of that abstract absolute thought, of which mind is the concretion." SD I 38 "Time is only an illusion produced by the succession of our states of consciousness as we travel through eternal duration, and it does not exist were no consciousness exists in which the illusion can be produced, but "lies asleep." The present is only a mathematical line which divides that part of eternal duration which we call the future from that part which we call the past. Nothing on earth has real duration, for nothing remains without change-or the same-for the billionth part of a second; and the sensation we have of the actuality of...the present, comes from the blurring of that momentary glimpse, or succession of glimpses of things that our senses give us, as those things pass from the region of ideals, which we call the future, to the region of memories that we name the past." SD I 37 -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 19:09:46 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA28240 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:55:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Forgiveness Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:53:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01be7018$f408dc60$950e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 In-Reply-To: <7464e408.36eed949@aol.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 16th Dear Shersy: To me one of the most interesting things that I picked up from Theosophy is that I am not my feelings, or my mind, but that I am able to look at both of those tools as part of my equipment to learn and to understand. In doing this I saw that the two could be separated. I can think about my feelings and I can feel about my thoughts. I think everyone can do that also. If that is the case how do we go about disentangling the mixture. Very often we make decisions without being entirely clear as to the best reason for adopting one way or another. To forgive is to refuse to carry grudge or malice. It is not easy, especially when we think we are wronged without good cause. And sometimes, in a ark mood we employ our knowledge or "position" to coerce others into doing what we want. This coercion can be "good" or bad." It is often asked, because there is a lot of argument, what is the difference between good and bad, and how can anyone make a clear distinction. I have noticed that Theosophy states that the whole Universe runs by Law. The same "law" applies to all and anyone. It is not legislated or "man-made" law that is meant. Every great ancient religion has adopted a rather simple criterion: "Do to (or for) others that which you expect to receive from them." No exceptions, no favorites. So I adopted for myself the rather simple formula: "Good" is that which harmonizes with nature's laws, and "Bad" is that that which breaks those laws. I am aware of the Voice of Conscience within, which warns me when I propose doing something that might break those laws. I try to use and obey it. I think everyone has heard those warnings in their own way, from inside. This is just an idea to be applied to "forgiveness." I think the best kind of forgiveness is to try to redress any wrong I have done to another, and also try and change the tendency in myself to transgress. What do you think ? Dallas ========================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Shersy17@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 2:21 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness In a message dated 3/16/99 4:38:06 PM, Teos9@aol.com writes: << would say they are talking about the forgiveness of transgressions against others as well as ourselves. Do you have other definitions? >> I heard a nice definition of forgiveness once..we no longer let the thoughts of what others have done to us, or we to them, control our thinking. (Let it go and get on with your life.) Peace Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 22:09:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA16947 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:06:01 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EF213F.EF47DBCB@withoutwalls.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:28:00 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Forgiveness References: <000601be7007$43800d20$950e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Mar 16 > > If I understand you right, Mark, we ought to "forgive" others, > but not ourselves for making wrong choices and perhaps hurting > others. > > With that I will agree full-heartedly. > > Thanks > > Dallas Dallas, Nope. Forgive yourself too. The act of forgiving passes the energy through you. Soak in it. Forgiving yourself is like a flooding of the lower self with the very transmutative power that the whole of evolution seeks to bring about. It will do no harm to you and only help you in all good ways, while also ameliorating the negative effects of whatever bonds you have made with the other person.. Why would you not want to forgive yourself? Refusing to is more strengthening to the recalcitrant ego and more productive of selfishness and negative self esteem than opening to receive mercy from within. Basically, God within you loves and forgives you. It just keeps you in a sick personal psychology ("I am unwiorthy of forgiveness," etc.). Allow it to happen. Try to be God's person on Earth. It's really simple. -- M -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 23:09:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA21405 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:56:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990317044838.8761.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Robert Crosbie: More on His Special Status in the U.L.T. Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:48:37 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a previous posting I quoted from an encyclopedia article by Dr. James Santucci. He wrote the following about the U.L.T. founder, Mr Robert Crosbie--- "Even Crosbie himself claimed no special status, although he is naturally held in high esteem by [U.L.T.] associates." THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF CULTS, SECTS AND NEW RELIGIONS, Prometheus Press, page 504. For scores of years, the inner circle in the U.L.T. Los Angeles has declared (both implicitly & explicitly) the unique & special status of the U.L.T. founder. Here are two more quotes to supplement what has already been given--- "[Mr Crosbie]. . . identified himself with the DZYAN [Esoteric] section of the Theosophical Movement and the T.S., and was for many years the devoted and close Companion of William Q. Judge, and an occult pupil of H.P. Blavatsky. . . ." "Theosophy" magazine, 1919, Volume 7, page 320 Here a special claim is given without any evidence that Mr Crosbie was a "close Companion" of Mr Judge as well as an *occult* pupil of Madame Blavatsky. No explanation is given of what is meant by the words "close Companion" or "occult pupil." How many occult pupils did H.P. Blavatsky have? How unique was Crosbie's pupilage? The U.L.T. writer doesn't supply such relevant details. In "Theosophy" magazine for November 1929, a U.L.T. writer proclaims "the glorious example of Masters' Messengers to the world, the Transmitters of the Wisdom-Religion. Among These, and in our own time and country: H.P. Blavatsky, William Q. Judge, and Robert Crosbie. . . ." Here in no uncertain terms Mr Crosbie is declared one of "Masters' Messengers to the world" along side Mme Blavatsky & Mr Judge! A pretty unique status! Additional quotes of a similar nature will be found in my completed paper. In my next contribution I will describe certain aspects of the U.L.T.'s Esoteric School & quote relevant statements from various esoteric documents issued from U.L.T. headquarters in Los Angeles, California. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 16 23:39:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA24460 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:31:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990317053021.18131.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Robert Crosbie: His Special Status in the ULT's Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:30:20 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com LeonMaurer wrote------ As a supposed historical scholar, I would >think that you would study the writings of RC and find out directly for >yourself instead of referring to dubious second hand accounts of long dead >others who had their own axes to grind--as you apparently also have. Uhhhhhhhh??? What dubious second hand accounts? In my last email I quoted from the words of Robert Crosbie and John Garriques. Are these the dubious accounts to which you refer? David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 00:09:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id AAA27042 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:03:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990317060211.21631.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Robert Crosbie: His Special Status in the ULT Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:02:09 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >From: LeonMaurer@aol.com >>Who are these agents, one might ask? > >Can you prove that you have earned the right to know? If so, I'll tell you? Like, hey man, you're serious about this????? I can barely earn a paycheck. S--t, I didn't know I had to earn "the right to know." How do you do that? This blows me away. You're getting a little too heavy & metaphysical on me. C'mon man tell us, don't keep secrets. Who were these agents in 1915? I bet Mr Crosbie was the main one. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 05:22:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id EAA16126 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 04:54:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199903151809.MAA25035@pippin.imagiware.com> References: Conversation <199903151809.MAA25035@pippin.imagiware.com> with last message <199903151809.MAA25035@pippin.imagiware.com> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mika perala" Subject: Theos-World Vs: theos-talk-digest V1 #770 Date: ke, 17 maalis 99 13:00:51 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Jery wrote: > > According to some magical/occult schools, personal karma is consumed > somewhere in the three higher planes. But collective karma is only > eliminated outside our 7-plane solar system altogether. So, I would > think that your statement really depends on exactly how we define karma > and nirvana. > > Jerry S. So Boddhisattva would wait and work for others until collective karma has= been eliminated and those who have attained enlightenment (eliminated = their personal karma) would just be blissed and enjoyed listening Nirvana= until the others have crumbled their way and the collective karma is eli= minated.Then everybody could go on to another whatever? mika perala lurk lurk -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 05:24:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id FAA20484 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:24:24 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: <3b225e68.36ef9063@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:22:11 EST To: dalval@nwc.net, theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Forgiveness Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/16/99 9:49:53 PM, dalval@nwc.net writes: << Dear Shersy: < To: Subject: Theos-World Atma, Buddhi, Karma and NIrvana Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:46:46 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be707c$999b4ce0$226645c2@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Jerry et al, > Just some thoughts. Thanks for the quote; I now see > where you were coming from. > > Jerry S. Your welcome, Jerry. They were in my original post as well but you must have missed them. Jerry writes: > The word "reached" is tricky here, because we already > are spiritual, and already have atman and buddhi, and so > "reaching" can be equated to becoming aware of what is > already there. This is in agreement with the teaching that > a Buddha is simply a human being who is fully aware (or > awake). > > From yet another angle, we can't get there by karma, > (i.e., by any single action) but rather by dropping or > eliminating or consuming our karma. Yes, indeed, it is just this sense of 'tricky' and paradox that I find myself reflecting on. We already 'have' Atma and Buddhi, as you rightly say. Yet HPB states, neither Atma nor Buddhi are of any more use to man than sunlight is to a piece of granite buried in the earth, *unless* they are relfected in some form of consciousness (ie Manas). So it seems it is the development of Manas that contains *the key* to becoming 'fully aware' or 'awakened' - as we sometimes refer to the Buddha's enlightenment. This fits in with my sense that "getting there" isn't just about.. a) already 'being there', or b) about droppng or eliminating Karma. Yet both of these seem highly relevant as you point out. These are just some reflections that I'm sharing with the group. I don't have any answers. Some of the other reflections / questions that go along with this for me are... Karma is the Law that redresses cause and effect. "The real Mahatma is then not his physical body but that higher Manas which is inseperably linked to the Atma and its vehicle (the 6th principle)" (from the Collected Writings v6 "Mahatmas and Chelas".) When working as an Adept, does a Mahatma generate Karma? Or is it that by working *with* Karma at the 'highest level' (Atma-Buddhi) - that His actions are 'Karma-less'?...., because paradoxically 'Karma in action'? I may be wrong but I think there is something here as to understanding the notion that Nirvana (Atma-Buddhi) are not reached by Karma? >From the Mahatma Letters No 16: "...you can do nothing better than to study the two doctrines -- of Karma and Nirvana -- as profoundly as you can. Unless you are thoroughly well acquainted with the two tenets -- the double key to the metaphysics of Abidharma -- you will always find yourself at sea in trying to comprehend the rest. We have several sorts of Karma and Nirvana in their various applications -- to the Universe, the world, Devas, Buddhas, Bodhisatwas, men and animals -- the second including its seven kingdoms. " Are there other ways, than the usual, that we need to be thinking about Karma and 'action' at these levels of consciousness? Best wishes Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 08:22:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA27665 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:48:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Nirvana and appropriation Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:46:49 -0000 Message-ID: <000101be707c$9b3eeac0$226645c2@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6e97a767.36eea565@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Rich, I don't seem to have your problem with this word 'merge', or even the notion of 'merging into', 'attaining', or 'reaching' Nirvana. In fact these phrases are used over and over again in the Secret Doctrine and in the Mahatma Letters when HPB and the Mahatmas refer to Nirvana. Similar phrases are used in the Stanzas themselves. If they are "damaging to philosophy" as you suggest then HPB and the Masters have done "philosophy" a great wrong. But I doubt very much whether that is the case. When exporing this topic of Nirvana I try to keep in mind what is stated in Mahatma Letters No 16, namely: "We have several sorts of Karma and Nirvana in their various applications -- to the Universe, the world, Devas, Buddhas, Bodhisatwas, men and animals -- the second including its seven kingdoms. " I agree with your view that Nirvana is 'already there' but only in the light of the above passage. I don't think we can skip the developmental hard work associated with Manas in the hope that we can just "BE" in the moment and become our REAL nature. (I'm also not sure that this is what you mean.) I am more convinced by the Theosophical viewpoint which states: "No Entity, whether angelic or human, can reach the state of Nirvana, or of absolute purity, except through aeons of suffering and the knowledge of EVIL as well as of good, as otherwise the latter remains incomprehensible... Between man and the animal -- whose Monads (or Jivas) are fundamentally identical -- there is the impassable abyss of Mentality and Self-consciousness." SDv2, p81 The latter is Manas, of course. I differ from your view that Manas is "some lower, transient vehicle". I think that just the opposite is the case. In its essence Manas is of the most 'high', having its very source, through the Manasputras, in the AH-HI. In 'Transactions - Blavatsky Lodge' HPB desribes the AH-HI as synonymous with the first Logos - 'being on the highest plane [they] reflect the Universal Mind collectively at the first flutter of the Manvantara'. HPB uses the term "Universal Mind", in this instance, as another name for "the Absolute - out of time and space". You write: > The Absolute is not approached, encompassed, > touched, visited, etc. etc. But of course we can explore the idea of "approaching" Nirvana. Hence the reference in the Stanza: STANZA 1 Sloka 4. THE SEVEN WAYS TO BLISS (Moksha* or Nirvana) WERE NOT (a). THE GREAT CAUSES OF MISERY (Nidana** and Maya) WERE NOT, FOR THERE WAS NO ONE TO PRODUCE AND GET ENSNARED BY THEM (b). you also say: > Nirvana is not something one "merges into" because it is already there. The idea of 'merging' being 'absorbed' etc can be found in the following (and endless more places in the SD): "Nor is the individuality -- nor even the essence of the personality, if any be left behind -- lost, because re-absorbed. For, however limitless -- from a human standpoint -- the paranirvanic state, it has yet a limit in Eternity. Once reached, the same monad will re-emerge therefrom, as a still higher being, on a far higher plane, to recommence its cycle of perfected activity." (SD v1, p266) "The monad, then, can be traced through the course of its pilgrimage and its changes of transitory vehicles only from the incipient stage of the manifested Universe. In Pralaya, or the intermediate period between two manvantaras, it loses its name, as it loses it when the real ONE self of man merges into Brahm in cases of high Samadhi (the Turiya state) or final Nirvana..." (SD v1, p570) "These words were, in their turn, the anagrammatic blind of the five mystic powers represented on the robe of the "resurrected" Initiate after his last trial of three days' trance; the five becoming seven only after his death, when the Adept became the full CHRISTOS, the full KRISHNA-VISHNU, i.e., merged in Nirvana." SD v2, p580 Best wishes Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 08:52:56 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA31146 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:37:47 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990317143618.10452.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Mr Richard Taylor's Comments on Esoteric, Private Groups Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:36:18 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mr Richard Taylor wrote------ > >Frank, I do *not* believe there is a "private study group" in the Pasadena- >based Theosophical Society. > >But *IF* there were, I still don't think it's any one's business, especially >for purely historical reasons. The Theosophical Society shouldn't exist for >historical purposes, but for spiritual ones. Thus, only a spiritual motive >for joining esoteric study could be justified. > >Besides which, don't people have a right to associate how and where they will? >In America freedom of assembly is a fundamental right of all citizens. I am >not a member of Pasadena's T.S., I don't claim to know their inner workings, >nor would it be any of my business. But if they had or have private study, >it's their right, good for them. Mr Taylor---- Are your sentiments the same regarding the U.L.T.'s "Dzyan Esoteric Section"? You wrote-----"I still don't think it's any one's business, especially for purely historical reasons." Applied to D.E.S., are you stating an "outsider" has no business or right inquiring about the existence or the claims of the U.L.T.'s esoteric group? Especially for purely historical reasons? That no one should examine or criticize the inner workings or claims of the D.E.S.? If this is your view, then please explain why U.L.T. writers including Mr Robert Crosbie for decades consistently & harshly criticized the Esoteric Schools of Mrs Besant, Mr Hargrove & especially Mrs Tingley. In the U.L.T. 1925 history, chapter is written to expose the inner workings of Judge's E.S.T. after his death. This history quotes voluminously from private esoteric papers. What business was it of John Garriques et al to criticize the inner, private workings of Mrs Tingley's esoteric school? Critical account appeared to be for purely historical reasons. & Mr Crosbie also harshly criticized in pages of "Theosophy" the various esoteric groups & their claims. Was this any of his business? Did these groups have the right to conduct their private studies etc without some "outsider" meddling with their business? Again Henry Geiger of U.L.T. LA in updated edition of "Theosophical Movement" continued tradition of criticizing these esoteric sections & groups. For example, Mrs Tingley's & Dr de Purucker's esoteric claims. Many of Geiger's statements are vitrolic & inflammatory. And the Theosophy Company still sells this volume. I've seen the book on ULT tables. Mr Dallas TenBroeck has consistently advertised this volume on theostalk. You haven't spoken out against these U.L.T. books. Why? Yet when Frank or I criticize Pasadena or ULT about their esoteric groups and claims, you get on your soap box & high horse & proclaim "It's none our business. Leave those groups alone. It's America." David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 09:02:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA31649 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:43:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:37:48 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Jung's Views Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Regarding Jung and his views. Did he ever conceive of an immortal Ego within the personal Self ? What responsibility did it assume for the directing of the life and choices of individuals?>> Exactly the opposite: there is an immortal Self above/over the mortal ego. Jung taught that the archetypal Self pre-exists the ego, which is born with the body and grows with it and dies with it. The archetypal Self is timeless and spaceless. Its primary symbol is the mandala. It communicates with the ego in several ways, but primarily through dreams. >>What and how was the ethical nature of man the actor considered ?>> Jung was greatly concerned about ethics and morals. His theory of the persona and shadow are the foundations of how good and evil come about. Addressing the shadow, and the whole question of ethical and moral behavior is the very first step of his individuation process. I also consider it to be the very first step in any meaningful spiritual Path. >>Why do people get hailed into Court? What is a crime ? and who dos it ? Dal>> Crimes, courts, laws, and social behaviors have been studied in great depth by modern psychology, and a great deal is now known. However, this is all surface stuff, and has nothing at all to do with Theosophy, the spiritual Path, reincarnation, liberation, and so on. Did you know, for example, that if a baby is not hugged and changed and fed regularly, especially after it cries out for help, then it can develop an anti-social personality later in life (i.e., its conscience will never be allowed to develop)? How does this tie in with reincarnation and karma? Perhaps it is the karma of some babies not to receive proper care? Modern psychology has demonstrated rather conclusively that both nature and nurture, both genes and environment, are essential for human development. In short, we can say that both reincarnation (expressed as genetic inheritance) and karma (expressed in the environment as the meeting of needs) both play significant roles in human development. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 09:24:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA02632 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:18:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:11:02 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Jung's Views Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/17/99 10:01:58 AM, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: <> I have to bring myself up to date on the discussions, I can see that..so..are we saying here karma is strictly related to reincarnation..or karma is the law of action.. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? Thanks Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 10:09:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA07086 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:07:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:01:26 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World More on Karma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>The notion that we can disolve our Karma along with the 'defilements' seems, to me, to be a variation on the Christian theme where we can live an immoral life, doing great harm to others, providing we have forgiveness at the end.>> Well, I agree that the Moll Flanders or Darth Vader approach doesn't work. Probably the best example I can think of here is Milarepa, the great Tibetan saint and yogi who eliminated his personal karma in a single lifetime. His life was not an easy one. He toiled, studied, etc for long years until at least he was enlightened. It is not a life that many of us would care to go through, but it does demonstrate the possibility. >>Actually it is slightly worse, for what seems to be suggested is that we don't even have to ask for forgiveness. We simply need to forgive ourselves in order to absolve ourselves of our deeds and their consequences.>> Forgiveness is an important ingredient in karma consumption, but it is not the only ingredient. >Theosophy would say that the man is still Karmically responsible for the consequences of his actions even if he became an Arhat in that very lifetime.<< I think that the real key to understanding this whole topic is in the definition of "Karmically responsible." I am sure that Dallas and I would have different meanings for this phrase. >>HPB writes in the Key to Theosophy, Section 11: "Karma gives back to every man the actual consequences of his own actions, without any regard to their moral character; but since he receives his due for all, it is obvious that he will be made to atone for all sufferings which he has caused, just as he will reap in joy and gladness the fruits of all the happiness and harmony he had helped to produce.">> I have no problem with this quote. However, karma can be consumed or eliminated in a single lifetime as evidenced by both Hindu and Buddhist teachings as well as the lives of Milarepa and others. HPB chose not to go into this. Hope this helps, Peter. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 10:25:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA08035 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:15:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:09:46 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Need for Forgiveness? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>And I'm wondering why the hell anyone would feel a need to be forgiven anyway. Chuck>> Hi Chuck. I suspect that before anyone feels the need for forgiveness, they would first have to feel shame, guilt, regret, or some similar emotion, usually derived from a conscience. This leaves us out, but I was mainly speaking about others here. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 10:39:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA08868 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:22:20 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:16:53 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Humor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>So can reading a good self-help book and learning to laugh at yourself and the world. This nonsense about sin is one of the diseases left to us from the poor lunatics who founded the various religious traditions. Chuck>> I tend to agree with you, except that parents can give their children a conscience without any religion being associated. Humor is every bit as important as forgiveness. Jerry S -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 10:54:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA11784 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:53:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:51:11 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Humor Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 99-03-17 11:39:08 EST, you write: << Humor is every bit as important as forgiveness. >> As I grow older I never cease to appreciate the wisdom of my parents in teaching me never to feel guilty about anything and that most things are pretty funny. How else could one hope to survive being around one's fellow theosophists? Chuck -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 11:09:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA12123 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:56:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:49:38 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Need for Forgiveness? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 99-03-17 11:24:37 EST, you write: << Hi Chuck. I suspect that before anyone feels the need for forgiveness, they would first have to feel shame, guilt, regret, or some similar emotion, usually derived from a conscience. This leaves us out, but I was mainly speaking about others here. Jerry S. >> I know! I keep forgetting that little detail. I spend so much time teaching people how to get rid of their consciences that I forget that the bulk of humanity still labors under the burden of having one and it causes it all manner of unnecessary pain. Chuck -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 11:20:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA11403 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:49:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:42:48 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Response to Dallas on Karma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>For understanding, one may fragment the understanding of KARMA as GdeP does. But what good does it do ? WE are taught that all Karma is generated primarily in our emotional nature (Kama) -desire and passion. Then the lower mind ( Kama-Manas) is invoked to seek ways and means of implementing what are unethical proposals.>> I disagree with what "we are taught." Karma is simply the law of causation. The word means action, and implies and every action will have an effect and that every effect had a cause. Causation is within time and eplains what happens over time. Modern physics has learned, kicking and screaming, that acausal events also occur. >>If Karma is a universal and impartial law that rules the whole of everything, then why should any transgression against honesty, fairness, openness, "treating others as we would be treated," etc.. have exceptions ?>> You constantly mix up karma with morality. "Treating others" is a moral issue, not necessarily a karmic one. Karma is impartial, and thus ammoral. >I always ask myself about the VICTIMS. We are ALL victims. We are all victims of causation. >> All of those relied on HPB and the Masters' writings (which came through her).>> As do I. >The Universe runs under immutable laws These laws cannot be put into words without distortion. Karma is causation, and is a "law" within our 7-plane solar system. >>The Universe is eternal in the ultimate sense and boundless and indescribable.>> Certainly not our physical universe or physical solar system. As to any occult meaning, I believe that we each have our own universe, and we carry it around with us all the time. >Human Monads are portions of that ONENESS. Please explain how a Oneness can have "portions." This is very illogical, and even as a paradox I don't buy it. I also consider the term "human monad" as misleading. There simply is no such thing. Spirituality has a characteristic feeling of oneness because there we are close to the divine Monad. >Every being of what ever kind is an integral part of the ONENESS.> Try to define "integral part." >On this Procrustean bed how does "forgiveness" shape up? To me it is delusionary in all senses.> I am sorry to hear you say that forgiveness is a delusion. I suspect you will be treading the Wheel of Life for lots of lifetimes to come (not a bad thing if you like it). >Neither NATURE (the Univese) nor "WE" ever "forget." Well, we certainly do forget in the short term. But I agree that "we" don't forget anything in the long term. However, we can, and should, forgive. >Who defends the rights of the victims to secure for them equitable redress ?> Your concern for "victims" is admirable. However, every living being is a victim of something or someone, and every living being is a predator for something or someone too. Again, you needlessly mix morality with karma. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 11:33:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA14473 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:21:29 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:15:12 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Sacrifice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >This is just an idea to be applied to "forgiveness." I think the >best kind of forgiveness is to try to redress any wrong I have >done to another, .. Dallas, there is another law that we haven't mentioned lately-- the law of sacrifice. Life feeds on life. We all do "wrong" every day in order to maintain our own lives, by eating the bodies of other living things, whether animal or vegetable. The American Indian used to say a prayer of gratitude to God and one of forgiveness to each animal it had to kill. Today many of us still say a prayer of blessing to God before a meal, but how many ask forgiveness to those lives that were lost in order to provide the food to be consumed? Does a spinach have a right to life? As I have said before, we are all victims in this world and it is absolutely impossible to go through life without causing others pain and suffering. All we can really do is to look within ourselves for both gratitude and forgiveness. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 13:46:18 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA04891 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:25:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: <8e321dae.36efeeb0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:04:32 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Sacrifice Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/17/99 12:46:39 PM, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: <> Aren't we starting to mix apples and oranges here? We are all somewhere on the food chain, that's for certain. But is it wrong to eat what was provided for us to eat by the All? I think it is wrong to question His ways. Peace Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 13:55:38 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA05228 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:28:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: <6e9cea3b.36efef55@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:07:17 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Humor Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/17/99 11:54:21 AM, Drpsionic@aol.com writes: << As I grow older I never cease to appreciate the wisdom of my parents in teaching me never to feel guilty about anything and that most things are pretty funny. How else could one hope to survive being around one's fellow theosophists? Chuck >> LOLOLOL..well, you do have a good sense of humor, Chuck. HPB would be proud.. is said that she said...commonsense and a sense of humor are what are needed for the student. Peace Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 14:04:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA01624 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:53:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: KARMA THE UNIVERSAL LAW Vs: SPECULATION theos-talk-digest V1 #770 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:50:29 -0800 Message-ID: <000101be70a7$072272a0$280e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 17th 1999 Dallas offers a general view: Before I or anyone goes off into wide speculation as to what Karma does, or does not do, acts or does not act, records or fails to record, and follows the flight of fancy of those who have written on it, and on the possible escapism for the personality for its peccadilloes, we ought, all of us to pick up one of the basic texts of theosophy like the KEY TO THEOSOPHY. There we will find that Karma is an aspect of the ABSOLUTE ALL. It does not react selectively. It is impartial. Its records thus do NOT fail to record our smallest thoughts, feelings, and or acts, whether knows to others or even hidden, and whether they be good or bad. Strange that innately we know right away if our choices are "good" or is this, not possibly one of the pieces of evidence that we have lived before, and that we have stored up a memory (whether sub-conscious, or super-conscious) of the results? Something in us knows the difference and either approves or disapproves. Why should that be? I think it is important to find out the answer to these observations and that question. If the Universe is a unity of diversities then its way of life is a harmony of discords. But does that not indicate that there is SOMETHING which is not involved in the differences, the satisfactions, and the sufferings ? Ho, where, what is THAT ? Theosophy offers a philosophy that includes reasonable answers to those propositions, and whether we "like" them or do not "like" them, the question is not of preference, but of fact. What is the fact ? Not, "What is the way to escape unpleasantness ?" If we are at our core the MONAD (Atma-Buddhi) or, an immortal point of life. Our past is enormously long and it has taken aeons for the MONAD that is ME in REALITY to arrive at this point where I live in a human body. I am now able to learn by self-effort. Am I going to "fool" myself or engage in serious "find-out?" I like the idea that one of the prerogatives of this situation is that I don't have to worry about my "death." I don't have to worry about the "rush." I don't have to worry about my future. I do perhaps prefer to have a future that is even, and constructive. If I share the world and Univese with billions of other "IMMORTALS" then why not engage my time in finding out how to live and work with them>? I figure that so far Theosophy has served to answer many of these questions and always encourages investigation and independent verification of its doctrines. Which is a great deal more than most theologies or even psychologies do. Hope this is of some help Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of mika perala Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 1:01 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Vs: theos-talk-digest V1 #770 Jery wrote: > > According to some magical/occult schools, personal karma is consumed > somewhere in the three higher planes. But collective karma is only > eliminated outside our 7-plane solar system altogether. So, I would > think that your statement really depends on exactly how we define karma > and nirvana. > > Jerry S. So Boddhisattva would wait and work for others until collective karma has been eliminated and those who have attained enlightenment (eliminated their personal karma) would just be blissed and enjoyed listening Nirvana until the others have crumbled their way and the collective karma is eliminated.Then everybody could go on to another whatever? mika perala lurk lurk -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 16:58:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA28428 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:50:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:48:32 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Nirvana and appropriation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/17/99 2:22:25 PM, Peter wrote: <> Fair enough Peter, and I think I was probably wrong to quibble over words. HPB and the Mahatmas were forced to use words in English that would make sense to Christianized ears. I don't think we're in that position today. Nirvana is explained much better in original Buddhist texts. (Yes, I'm aware that various reactionary Theosophical elements will now flame me for DARING to criticize the English usage of HPB and her teachers.) In any case, I think the essence of our little debate is that you are taking the view of the individuality which is IN manifestation, "looking up" as it were to its source. I am taking the view of the Source, which is unperturbed by the variegated Mayavic display of manifestation. From this point of view, however "high" Manasic development may be, it is still transient, mayavic, and ultimately unreal. I frankly admit that in my day to day life I hardly ever hold the perspective of the Higher Self, but in meditation this is not so. Little Rich Taylor and his tiny little Manas is nothing in light of the unmanifest Atman, which is indeed above Karma, beyond causation, never wrapped up in the body or the concerns of the vehicles. This is why quite frequently we will find HPB say "ATMA IS NO PRINCIPLE" (but the word "Atma" is sometimes used as a blind for the manvantaric vehicle some refer to as the Sutratma). Atman is *not* among the seven principles of the human constitution, and should *not* be treated as something which exists, which can be attained, etc. It is not an "individual" per se, and I think it is perfectly fair to say that there is only ONE Atman, however it may look and feel to us confused worldlings. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 17:08:14 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA28463 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:50:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <1dfbfd1a.36f02337@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:48:39 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com, eldon@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Unacceptable behavior Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com David, Your endless smarmy posts to the list about your research have grown tiresome indeed. This will be the last time I reply to anything on this topic, though you will no doubt go blithely on your way until you have succeeded in alienating the entire list. That is certainly your right, and your loss. What I have said about any private study group in Pasadena (if there were one) holds true for ANY private or esoteric study anywhere. Let us take an imaginary esoteric group. Let us say there are special claims made by or for some of its members. Let us say there are happy students and unhappy students. Let us say any number of things about it. So what? Of what interest is this to anyone outside the circle? How does these private affairs become the business of anyone who has not chosen to become a member? Do you, Mr. Green, as an academic researcher using Theosophical history as a tool to complete your personal study at a university, feel in some way entitled to the private information of others? Do you think you have a right to know how Pasadena or ULT or Wheaton or any other body of students makes its private decisions, appoints its leaders, studies its sacred literature? Do you think you are owed an explanation for anything about which you have a question? If you were a marriage counselor, or a researcher of family dynamics, do you imagine you have a right to know the details of the private lives of people who are not your clients? Would you pry into the child-rearing techniques, eating habits, sex lives, of perfect strangers? Now you wonder why some Theosophists have taken it upon themselves to criticize other Theosophists, their organizations, their esoteric studies. And you wonder how I would defend such criticism. You should certainly feel free to wonder as much as you like. I don't see why you are owed a response, nor why you should become aggressive and angry that Theosophists aren't springing up to rush to your assistance. I do not feel called upon to support or condemn the actions and/or publications of U.L.T. associates like Mr. Crosbie, Mr. Garrigues, Mr. Geiger, or other students living or dead. Nor do I feel called upon to criticize their opponents, who responded to such vituperation in kind. (Surely, you've examined various "sides" in the dispute over esoteric authority, etc., and seen the "special claims" made by various persons on all sides.) These were all Theosophists (on all sides), who were engaged in defending what they viewed as Theosophy, and they pursued this activity with spiritual motives and high ideals, whatever the results. Their interests were not purely historical or intellectual, and *all* the disputants heaped contempt upon such worldly pursuits. So for now, Mr. Green, I will confine myself to criticizing *your* behavior, and your use of this private discussion list. You have begun with repeating the criticisms of others toward HPB (like Bharati and others) and moved on to "unveiling" the private conversations between William Q. Judge and HPB. (Which were already known and publicized) Ever more aggressively, you have attempted to uncover esoteric studies, and to criticize events and people in history. In all, your commnications have been arrogant and accusatory, using words like "high horse" and "soap box" as if list members have done something wrong in refusing to aid your research, or in expressing the view that you have no business invading the privacy of others. You appear angry that you haven't made more progress in understanding U.L.T. dynamics, despite my (at first) long and thoughtful replies to your inquiries. But you are not interested in studying Theosophy as a body of teachings, nor are you interested in an empathetic understanding of Theosophical history from the point of view of an insider. Rather, with harsh criticisms of your own, directed toward Theosophists living and dead, you appear to demand what you feel entitled to, namely access to the private spiritual aspirations and associations of individuals. I propose now that you are using this discussion list (created for the supportive study of Theosophical teachings) in an abusive manner, attacking individuals, demanding answers to your personal questions, and offering nothing but scorn and skepticism for individual Theosophists, living and dead. You have not asked permission of anyone to engage in your personal research here, nor were you invited. I don't see why anyone on the list should have anything more to do with you. I will be surprised if your unsympathetic and agressive manner nets you the results of even the average anthropologist studying in a land without knowing the language. With your attitude, you will never penetrate the mysteries of Theosophy, and you will always be an outsider looking in. Though I wish you well in your personal life, I protest against your personal use of this forum for your invasive academic research. Certainly I think you should be asked to leave this list, but at the least I suspect you have lost the respect and cooperation of most people here, including me. Richard Taylor -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 17:58:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA06624 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:40:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:35:07 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Humor Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 99-03-17 14:55:06 EST, you write: << LOLOLOL..well, you do have a good sense of humor, Chuck. HPB would be proud.. is said that she said...commonsense and a sense of humor are what are needed for the student. Peace Sherry >> Humor is the only way to cut through the fog at times and HPB had a wicked sense of it. Chuck -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 18:27:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA04305 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:15:31 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:13:37 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Unacceptable behavior Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/17/99 6:07:28 PM, Richtay@aol.com writes: <> I just left a "Christian" list for these kind of unnecessary remarks. Does anyone know of any list, anywhere, where people can discuss theosophy, religions, philosophy, or anything on the nature of existence without it turning into a hate filled arena of negativity? That's what I would like to find. Peace Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 18:36:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA04456 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:17:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <4.1.19990317150721.00b0bce0@theosophy.com> X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:16:13 -0800 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Theos-World Humor In-Reply-To: <6e9cea3b.36efef55@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>As I grow older I never cease to appreciate the wisdom of my parents in >>teaching me never to feel guilty about anything and that most things are >>pretty funny. > >How else could one hope to survive being around one's fellow theosophists? > >Chuck > >LOLOLOL..well, you do have a good sense of humor, Chuck. HPB >would be proud ... is said that she said ... commonsense and >a sense of humor are what are needed for the student. > >Sherry Perhaps another way of putting it ... We need commonsense in our thinking, in our serene moments, *and* commonsense in our humor. An absence of humor indicates psychological inflation, taking oneself too seriously, being too rigid, proud, inflexible. An unbalance of humor is another way of hiding from life, where important issues are laughed away with contrived, artificial humor, making, in its extreme aspect, bitter, mocking, hurtful words. Balanced humor, on the other hand, will clear the air, reestablish communication, and open hearts to one another. Laughter has its many shades, from bright and playful to mocking, wounding, intentionally belittling of others. It has the full spectrum of uses, much as serious words do. -- Eldon -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 18:58:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA08721 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:04:49 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Sacrifice Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:02:10 -0800 Message-ID: <000201be70da$f3e67220$280e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 17th Dear Gerry: You are of course right and even the vegetables ought to be granted their right to live and grow without our "sacrificing" them. There are communities like the Jains in India who hold that any taking of life is a sin. Accordingly they try to live their lives with the least violence to the world around them. Their diet among those who are the most devoted practitioners consists of that which the plants give up such as seeds, fruits, and to this diet they add milk and water and salt. Anything can be pushed to an extreme. The real matter is how does one live a life in which one gives the maximum of consideration to the rights and needs of others? If we could live on water alone, it might be best of all. I have heard of some Yogis who have succeeded and demonstrated that they are able to live on nothing for weeks and months at a time. And I have no explanation other than that they must have developed some way in subsisting off the universal Prana/Jiva. Dal -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 9:15 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Sacrifice >This is just an idea to be applied to "forgiveness." I think the >best kind of forgiveness is to try to redress any wrong I have >done to another, .. Dallas, there is another law that we haven't mentioned lately-- the law of sacrifice. Life feeds on life. We all do "wrong" every day in order to maintain our own lives, by eating the bodies of other living things, whether animal or vegetable. The American Indian used to say a prayer of gratitude to God and one of forgiveness to each animal it had to kill. Today many of us still say a prayer of blessing to God before a meal, but how many ask forgiveness to those lives that were lost in order to provide the food to be consumed? Does a spinach have a right to life? As I have said before, we are all victims in this world and it is absolutely impossible to go through life without causing others pain and suffering. All we can really do is to look within ourselves for both gratitude and forgiveness. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 19:19:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA10374 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:25:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Response to Dallas on Karma Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:23:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000301be70dd$dcf3c880$280e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 17th 1999 SOME NOTES BELOW Dal ============================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 8:43 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Response to Dallas on Karma >>For understanding, one may fragment the understanding of KARMA as GdeP does. But what good does it do ? WE are taught that all Karma is generated primarily in our emotional nature (Kama) -desire and passion. Then the lower mind ( Kama-Manas) is invoked to seek ways and means of implementing what are unethical proposals.>> I disagree with what "we are taught." Karma is simply the law of causation. The word means action, and implies and every action will have an effect and that every effect had a cause. Causation is within time and eplains what happens over time. Modern physics has learned, kicking and screaming, that acausal events also occur. DALLAS I was taught, and then I thought about that and found the propositions were useful and probably true. I think we are all self taught. We are offered ideas and whether we accept them or not, they are either universally true or as you say later the words they are couched in make them obscure. I like to know what I am dealing with. >>If Karma is a universal and impartial law that rules the whole of everything, then why should any transgression against honesty, fairness, openness, "treating others as we would be treated," etc.. have exceptions ?>> You constantly mix up karma with morality. "Treating others" is a moral issue, not necessarily a karmic one. Karma is impartial, and thus ammoral. DALLAS Sorry don't intend to mix up the two (if by "morality" you mean ethics - and not "customary mores). Of course ETHICS are UNIVERSAL as the LAW OF KARMA is UNIVERSAL. As far as I know they are inflexible. You (or I) "gets back" in terms of effect what "you sows" in terms of causes. If they have an ethical impact then you and I get an ethical response. You can't have a Universe in which the laws are pretty much as you wish them to be, even if whiskey was once called "FIRE-WATER." We all know the difference. But for cause and effect we want special solutions and partial responses. Why " Whose afraid of the "big bad Wolf named - Karma ? >I always ask myself about the VICTIMS. We are ALL victims. We are all victims of causation. DALLAS Yes but who sets CAUSATION into activity and invites those causes to go into motion as effects? I can understand that we do not LIKE those EFFECTS but what has that to do with the LAW that is both universal and just ? We are here, so how do we deal with that, and what is to be done to make the best of what we are involved in? >> All of those relied on HPB and the Masters' writings (which came through her).>> As do I. >The Universe runs under immutable laws These laws cannot be put into words without distortion. Karma is causation, and is a "law" within our 7-plane solar system. DALLAS I agree about distortions, but the words do not create them, their use is determined by our thinking. Also there is a gap at times between what we write and what our corespondent understand we mean. >>The Universe is eternal in the ultimate sense and boundless and indescribable.>> Certainly not our physical universe or physical solar system. As to any occult meaning, I believe that we each have our own universe, and we carry it around with us all the time. DALLAS You also know perfectly well that I did not mean the physical Universe, but rather the metaphysical one on which everything rests as a base. >Human Monads are portions of that ONENESS. Please explain how a Oneness can have "portions." This is very illogical, and even as a paradox I don't buy it. I also consider the term "human monad" as misleading. There simply is no such thing. Spirituality has a characteristic feeling of oneness because there we are close to the divine Monad. DALLAS There is such a thing as a UNITY OF UNITS. The metaphysician knows that there are fundamental planes that are causative to the blur we call the physical. This is dealt with in extenso in the SD. The physical is not the only or the all of life. Our thoughts are not physical, although the brain shows electrical impulses concurrent with their passage through it. But what is the Mind and where is it? Who directs the Mind ? and where and what is that ? >Every being of what ever kind is an integral part of the ONENESS.> Try to define "integral part." DALLAS The SPIRITUAL causative plane is UNIVERSAL. We are in it and also a part of it. Therefore the allegory of SPACE is employed in trying to convey the idea of the ABSOLUTE. All beings that are "in manifestation," the entire UNIVERSE is made of those "integral parts" of the WHOLE. How else ? >On this Procrustean bed how does "forgiveness" shape up? To me it is delusionary in all senses.> I am sorry to hear you say that forgiveness is a delusion. I suspect you will be treading the Wheel of Life for lots of lifetimes to come (not a bad thing if you like it). DALLAS Makes no difference if I do or not. If I am an immortal, then time does not seem to be of any great consequence. Now or later, in any case whatever duties are mind I will be doing. The idea of a nice long rest sounds awfully boring to me. Sleep is an impediment. As to "forgiveness" I think it is automatically due to anyone who hurts another, since that must be done in ignorance of the LAW. How can you blame another immortal for its participation in our bad Karma. How can I resent such an event, since and resentment and consequent revenge might only increase the ultimate suffering that might be mine. How do we learn in such an environment? The Buddha said it simply: "Cease from evil. Do good. This is the Way." And that takes a lot of self-study. >Neither NATURE (the Univese) nor "WE" ever "forget." Well, we certainly do forget in the short term. But I agree that "we" don't forget anything in the long term. However, we can, and should, forgive. DALLAS OF COURSE I AM WITH YOU IN REGARD TO THE FORGIVENESS OF OTHERS WHO THROUGH THEIR IGNORANCE, MAY HAVE ACTIVELY WRONGED US. >Who defends the rights of the victims to secure for them equitable redress ?> Your concern for "victims" is admirable. However, every living being is a victim of something or someone, and every living being is a predator for something or someone too. Again, you needlessly mix morality with karma. DALLAS I am sure concerned with the victims - as anyone ought to be. Aren't you? If we know they are victims, then we also know that creating such a situation is not the ideal way to be living, is it ? Some of the views of the "church" encourage evil doing with the "carrot" of forgiveness. I have heard it expressed as: "Sin no more my son, you are absolved, and hurry back when in your weakness and self-delusion you repeat the same offence. Holy Church exists to do this endlessly." I always liked the statement made by someone to a Priest: "If we, none of us, sinned, you would be out of business." Best wishes, Dal Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 19:58:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA12075 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:46:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Jung's Views Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:43:49 -0800 Message-ID: <000401be70e0$c56b95a0$280e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 17th Gerry: All you say below are things I have heard described. Theosophy deals with the whole individual and not only with the personality and its emotional, and desire-nature whims, quirks and problems as they may or may not have developed based on early childhood or up-bringing problems. Some of the worst offenders within my observation have been the children that have been pampered and coddled and who have grown into adulthood with the idea that mama and papa will fix it all for me, because they love me. If there is anything more anti-social ! However each of us (and them) is endowed with an INDIVIDUALITY consisting of the Immortal Spirit-Soul and while this is set aside by modern psychology the ancient psychology of India, China, Persia, Kabalah, etc. -- now called Theosophy, say this is the most important factor. If this is not integrated then there is constant misunderstanding and there is reconciliation only with the greatest difficulty, as all the missing links have to be filled in again. The Immortal SELF, also called the MONAD (Atma-Buddhi) employs the Mind to contact the personality. The personality either welcomes of jibes at this. And then there is a battle royal between the mind and the emotions. Since the Mind is superior, it may take a long time, but eventually the emotions become the servants of the Sage. Our western psychology as I see it is designed to apologize and forgive the personality for its errors and ignorance. But the law courts do not entirely agree. They speak of a responsibility and designate this not purely as a result of legislating, but as something innate to each human and act accordingly. Why is that ? Best wishes, Dallas ================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 6:38 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Jung's Views >>Regarding Jung and his views. Did he ever conceive of an immortal Ego within the personal Self ? What responsibility did it assume for the directing of the life and choices of individuals?>> Exactly the opposite: there is an immortal Self above/over the mortal ego. Jung taught that the archetypal Self pre-exists the ego, which is born with the body and grows with it and dies with it. The archetypal Self is timeless and spaceless. Its primary symbol is the mandala. It communicates with the ego in several ways, but primarily through dreams. >>What and how was the ethical nature of man the actor considered ?>> Jung was greatly concerned about ethics and morals. His theory of the persona and shadow are the foundations of how good and evil come about. Addressing the shadow, and the whole question of ethical and moral behavior is the very first step of his individuation process. I also consider it to be the very first step in any meaningful spiritual Path. >>Why do people get hailed into Court? What is a crime ? and who dos it ? Dal>> Crimes, courts, laws, and social behaviors have been studied in great depth by modern psychology, and a great deal is now known. However, this is all surface stuff, and has nothing at all to do with Theosophy, the spiritual Path, reincarnation, liberation, and so on. Did you know, for example, that if a baby is not hugged and changed and fed regularly, especially after it cries out for help, then it can develop an anti-social personality later in life (i.e., its conscience will never be allowed to develop)? How does this tie in with reincarnation and karma? Perhaps it is the karma of some babies not to receive proper care? Modern psychology has demonstrated rather conclusively that both nature and nurture, both genes and environment, are essential for human development. In short, we can say that both reincarnation (expressed as genetic inheritance) and karma (expressed in the environment as the meeting of needs) both play significant roles in human development. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 22:58:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA30227 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:16:05 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990317221506.0124d600@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:15:06 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Unacceptable behavior In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 06:13 PM 3/17/1999 EST, Shersy17@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 3/17/99 6:07:28 PM, Richtay@aol.com writes: > ><Theosophy, and you will always be an outsider looking in.>> > >I just left a "Christian" list for these kind of unnecessary remarks. >Does anyone know of any list, anywhere, where people can discuss theosophy, >religions, philosophy, or anything on the nature of existence without it >turning into a hate filled arena of negativity? > >That's what I would like to find. >Peace >Sherry Dear Sherry: I understand how you feel. Based on my past experience over several years on various theos- lists, it is very rare to find posters who deal with the kind of remarks you cite. Very rarely when they do come to the list, in due course some incident triggers their disappearance on their own. All that is needed is a little patience and thick skin. I have personally come to "know" a lot of theosophists from these lists who are very serious, caring individuals and please stick around and you yourself will find this is true. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 17 23:58:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA02694 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:23:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EF3BE8.816456FA@withoutwalls.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:21:45 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Humor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Drpsionic@aol.com wrote > Humor is the only way to cut through the fog at times and HPB had a wicked > sense of it. > > Chuck Chucky, Babe, Don't ever change. -- Mark ---------------------------------------- Without Walls:An Internet Art Space email: mark@withoutwalls.com www.withoutwalls.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 00:02:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA02309 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:18:29 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:15:11 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Humor Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/17/99 11:39:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << This nonsense about sin is one of the diseases left to us from the poor lunatics who founded the various religious traditions. >> Unless of course, There actually is an innate, interior sense, of appropriate behavior. The idea of sin may be religious nonsense but that still leaves offense and hurtfulness unaccounted for. Some things, ought not to be dismissed with a good joke. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 00:05:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA02547 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:21:47 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36EF3B7D.FED44D01@withoutwalls.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:19:58 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Unacceptable behavior References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Shersy17@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/17/99 6:07:28 PM, Richtay@aol.com writes: > > < Theosophy, and you will always be an outsider looking in.>> > > I just left a "Christian" list for these kind of unnecessary remarks. > Does anyone know of any list, anywhere, where people can discuss theosophy, > religions, philosophy, or anything on the nature of existence without it > turning into a hate filled arena of negativity? > > That's what I would like to find. > Peace > Sherry Brace up, Sherry You can find what you're looking for here. Don't mind the riff raff. It's good practice for discrimination. -- Mark ---------------------------------------- Without Walls:An Internet Art Space email: mark@withoutwalls.com www.withoutwalls.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 00:09:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA32568 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:49:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990318044829.29372.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Cc: eldon@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re:Unacceptable behavior Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:48:28 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Mr Richard Taylor----- Thank you for your email with the most insightful "look" into your personality. You wrote-----"Do you think you are owed an explanation for anything about which you have a question?" You wrote---"I don't see why you are owed a response." Mr Taylor, I never thought I was OWED an explanation or response from anyone. I ask questions---some people answer them; some don't. You wrote---"You have not asked permission of anyone to engage in your personal research here, nor were you invited." You wrote---"I protest against your personal use of this forum for your invasive academic research." Mr Taylor, strange what you wrote. Did YOU ask permission of anyone to engage in your personal research here on theostalk about the origin & derivation of certain terms used by Mrs Blavatsky? Were YOU invited to post numerous emails here on that research of yours? No, I don't think so. And if memory serves me, a number of persons on the list strongly protested your "word origin" research on fohat, etc. So are you saying that you can do all of your research & post it here, but on the other hand you are more than eager to censor my socalled personal research on the same forum? You wrote---"I don't see why you are owed a response, nor why you should become aggressive and angry that Theosophists aren't springing up to rush to your assistance. You wrote---"You appear angry that you haven't made more progress in understanding U.L.T. dynamics, despite my (at first) long and thoughtful replies to your inquiries." Mr Richard Taylor, I believe I've made good progress on understanding what you call "U.L.T. dynamics" & instead of being aggressive & angry as you make me out to be, I've been more than grateful to the more than dozen Theosophists who have offered me information & documents with no strings attached. Mr Cooper in Australia & a U.L.T. person in London have sent me hundreds of pages of material. And others have also helped. Quite recently, a theostalk subscriber informed me of the whereabouts of more than 30 letters written by Mr Crosbie. Quite a find! In regards to your "long and thoughtful replies" to me, you offered nothing substantial. And I point blank told you that if you wanted to share information with me, it would be with no conditions attached. Any info that you gave me could end up in my paper. You never answered that reply. Fine with me. I have more than enough information for my project without you dribbling me facts with various limitations & condition imposed. Thank you but no thank you. You wrote---"So for now, Mr. Green, I will confine myself to criticizing *your* behavior, and your use of this private discussion list. You have begun with repeating the criticisms of others toward HPB (like Bharati and others) and moved on to "unveiling" the private conversations between William Q. Judge and HPB. (Which were already known and publicized) Ever more aggressively, you have attempted to uncover esoteric studies, and to criticize events and people in history." No doubt, these are grave sins of mine!!!!! I thought (& I'd appreciate if Mr Eldon Tucker would clarify this point) that this was a public discussion list. In other words, anyone in the world could subscribe to this list. No questions asked. Does one have to promise that he is a true believing Theosophist who will not question HPB, Judge or Crosbie to be a subscriber to this list? Sometime ago Ramadoss was harshly criticizing the Wheaton TS & Dr Algeo & I don't remember you or anyone else protesting what he did. Dallas TenBroeck has said negative things about Mr Leadbeater on theostalk. Have you reprimanded him for such behavior? Do we have different standards for different people on this list? BTW, did I announce to the list that I agreed with Bharati's criticisms of Mrs Blavatsky? And Mr Taylor weren't you the one who wrote me asking me to tell you where the complete article by Dr Bharati could be found? And I told you the web site where the complete article could be found. Was that another sin on my part? How do we know what you intend to do with Bharati's complete article? Should we question your motives & intentions. Yes, Mr Taylor, I'll continue my research on the U.L.T., their claims & their esoteric school. Your latest response is only an extra incentive to me to dig deeper. And I also intend to post on theostalk my finding in this area. . . . . .unless Mr Tucker decides to censor my contributions to this list. But if he censors mine, I would expect that he would also censor the postings of others including yours. What will be acceptable & not acceptable for posting? What will pass the litmus test? Although several other comments of yours are misleading & misguided, I'll end my email at this point. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 00:58:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA03991 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:48:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <63ec17dd.36f09354@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:47:00 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Response to Dallas on Karma Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/17/99 12:21:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << The word means action, and implies and every action will have an effect and that every effect had a cause >> It's the implication that gets us into trouble. What if it only means action? The unceasing action in every moment and on every level, physical, emotional and mental. What does that do to cause and effect? No now and then. just an eternity of now, now, now, ....................The place you caused it is the same place you fix it. <> Could you give us some examples of these "effects without causes?" I find that a fascinating idea. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 08:13:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA01726 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:00:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Humor Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:58:53 -0000 Message-ID: <000101be713f$138defe0$c46545c2@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990317150721.00b0bce0@theosophy.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Eldon, I was looking for a way of saying just that, but you put it far better than I would have done. Humor can light-en a situation and have a healing quality. It can also be used offensively and defensively as you point out. Thanks, Peter > An unbalance of humor is another way of hiding from life, where > important issues are laughed away with contrived, artificial > humor, making, in its extreme aspect, bitter, mocking, hurtful > words. Balanced humor, on the other hand, will clear the air, > reestablish communication, and open hearts to one another. > > Laughter has its many shades, from bright and playful to > mocking, wounding, intentionally belittling of others. It > has the full spectrum of uses, much as serious words do. > > -- Eldon -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 08:18:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA01721 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:00:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World More on Karma Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:58:50 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be713f$11c11f20$c46545c2@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Jerry, You wrote: > However, karma can be > consumed or eliminated in a single lifetime as evidenced > by both Hindu and Buddhist teachings as well as the lives > of Milarepa and others. HPB chose not to go into this. > Hope this helps, Peter. Well.. I don't see how it helps or supports your view that self forgiveness dissolves our individual Karma which is what you seemed to be saying at the begining of this thread. This is what I was responding to, and what I believe Dallas and Louis were questioning. Have I misunderstood you? With regards to single lifetime enlightenment. Virtually everything that HPB and the Masters gave out encourages us towards understanding the grand design; the evolutionary development of humanity and all nature (spiritual, mental & physical) over aeons of time. This includes the various comings and goings of the Great Breath - universes, solar systems, planets, races, and incarnations. Whatever the level of the cycle, Karma is the 'guiding hand', the Law of Laws behind it. HPB points out to us that we are at the begining of one such cycle, the Kali Yuga Cycle (a very difficult time for humanity), lasting aproximately 400,000 years. Given HPB's and the Masters' concern for the suffering of humanity, would they not have spent at least some time encouraging us to eliminate our Karma and become 'enlightened' in this single lifetime if that were possible? The single lifetime approach may be the view of some religions, and we are each entitled to whatever views we hold. But as far as I can see it is not the view of Theosophy. On the other hand, in the life of the would be Initiate there must come a point when s/he nears 'the goal'. As you no doubt know, The Voice of the Silence refers to the.... "Srotapatti or "he who enters in the stream" of Nirvana, unless he reaches the goal owing to some exceptional reasons, can rarely attain Nirvana in one birth. Usually a Chela is said to begin the ascending effort in one life and end or reach it only in his seventh succeeding birth. " (Glossary Fragment 2) If this is the case you are referring to then you are right to suggest HPB did not go into the "exceptional reasons" mentioned (unless someone else on the list knows where she does?). And with the above qoute I find it useful to keep in mind that when HPB states "it is said" she is sometimes alerting us to the fact that this is the exoteric and not the esoteric view. But even if we just take it as stated, if we take into account what HPB and the Masters had to say about Chelas, then this 'beginning stage' alone seems lifetimes away for the vast majority of us. And when the 'seventh birth' comes, what then? In the eyes of onlookers this individual (perhaps someone like Milarepa, as you suggest) will appear to have reached Nirvana in a single lifetime. From the Theosophical view such onlookers will be mistaken. Theosophy would say that what is gained in this life for that individual is the result of many, many, lifetimes of effort. Even then that individual consciousness is not entirely 'free' of Karma. What is the Karma for one who enters Nirvana and leaves the rest of Humanity to suffer? For the Law will call it back into rebirth at the appropriate stage of the ongoing cycles and call it into account for that which was done, or left undone, in the previous cycles. It is especially with regards the latter that I think your point is very relevant, Jerry, ie about determining what we mean by Karma, and 'Karmically responsible'. Regards, Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 12:10:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA30155 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:28:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199903180119.TAA14604@pippin.imagiware.com> References: Conversation <199903180119.TAA14604@pippin.imagiware.com> with last message <199903180119.TAA14604@pippin.imagiware.com> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mika perala" Subject: Theos-World Negativity Date: to, 18 maalis 99 15:09:33 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Sherry wrote: > I just left a "Christian" list for these kind of unnecessary remarks. > Does anyone know of any list, anywhere, where people can discuss theoso= phy, > religions, philosophy, or anything on the nature of existence without = it > turning into a hate filled arena of negativity? I`m afraid you`d have to start your own list and allow no other subscribe= rs than you... Mika perala lurk lurk -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 12:26:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA03540 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:14:27 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:08:37 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Rights of Living Beings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >Anything can be pushed to an extreme. The real matter is how does one live a life in which one gives the maximum of consideration to the rights and needs of others?< Dallas, this is a beautiful thought and one that is infinitely more rewarding that worrying about whether we are making good or bad karma. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 12:26:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA00312 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:48:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:42:37 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Karma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>I have to bring myself up to date on the discussions, I can see that..so..are we saying here karma is strictly related to reincarnation..or karma is the law of action.. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? Thanks Sherry>> Action and reaction is a law of Mr. Newton and applies only to physical objects. I equate karma with causation, which applies to all planes. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 12:31:20 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA00973 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:55:33 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:48:48 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Victims & Criminals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <> <> I was trying to get around the whole right/wrong approach here. What is important is motive. Dallas tries to single out certain particular individuals as "victims" and others as "criminals" and I am saying that we are all victims and criminals at times and in degrees. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 12:41:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA01746 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:02:21 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:56:23 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Is There An Escape From Karma? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >What is the fact ? Not, "What is the way to escape unpleasantness ?"> Dallas, we still seem to be at odds here. I completely agree with the "original" Theosophical teachings and yet disagree with you, or what is more likely your interpretation. You constantly harp on the impossibility to "escape" from karma, and yet this is exactly the message of Buddha who taught that indeed, there is an escape. Its usually called liberation. Nirvana is an escape from samsara, and this is the goal of many. But the Great Perfection school together with HPB taught that we must be liberated even from nirvana. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 12:46:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA04751 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:24:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:17:41 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Ethics & Karma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Of course ETHICS are UNIVERSAL as the LAW OF KARMA is UNIVERSAL. As far as I know they are inflexible. You (or I) "gets back" in terms of effect what "you sows" in terms of causes. If they have an ethical impact then you and I get an ethical response. >> Dallas, if we have any disagreement here it is doubtless in the terminology itself. I see "ethics" as a man-made code of behaviors and reaking of good and bad. Causation is indeed impersonal and has nothing at all to do with good or evil, which are our own subjective calls. Even though karma can be considered a universal law in the sense that it applies throughout our universe, it does not account for all actions--acausal events do occur, call them chaos or God's Will or whatever. I like to think of these as part of our collective karma, which is causal in a collective but not a personal sense. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 12:51:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA05937 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:32:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:26:29 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re to Dallas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Some of the worst offenders within my observation have been the children that have been pampered and coddled and who have grown into adulthood with the idea that mama and papa will fix it all for me, because they love me. If there is anything more anti-social !<< Dallas, I was using "anti-social" in its clinical sense. You are describing what is called narcissism. Basically any extreme is bad. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 12:56:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA07430 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:44:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: <47416e8a.36f14704@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:33:40 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Negativity Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 1:09:39 PM, mikap@dlc.fi writes: << I`m afraid you`d have to start your own list and allow no other subscribers than you... >> Perhaps that is a truth. Enq: What the objects of the "Theosophical Society"? Theo: They are three, and have been so from the beginning. (l) To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without the distinction of race, colour or creed. (2) To promote the study of Aryan and other Scriptures, of the World's religion and sciences, and to vindicate the importance of old Asiatic literature, namely of the Brahmanical, Buddhist, and Zoroastrian philosophies. (3) to investigate the hidden mysteries of Nature under every aspect possible, and the psychic and spiritual powers latent in man especially. These are, broadly stated, the three chief objects of the Theosophical Society." (The Key to Theosophy, HPB) Now, for myself, I joined this list to discuss the teachings of Blavatsky, Besant, Leadbeater, etc. Am I on the wrong list? Can these beliefs and teachings be discussed without donning battle armor? I am not a pollyanna, as someone wrote to me and suggested, and therefore would do better at sugarandspice.com. I am seeker of the teachings of the ancient wisdoms. I am student of the teachings. I am a peaceful person, and prefer to study in peace with like minded people. What good would it do me to study these beautiful philosophies of love and brotherhood, when at the same time I would pick up a rock and hurl it at my brothers and sisters? Perhaps I would do better elsewhere, and that I will consider, as that is now two of you who have suggested I leave. In the meantime, I have one question for this list: What were Blavatsky's teachings on brotherhood and love and the advancement of the soul? Peace Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 13:00:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA07086 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:41:19 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:34:59 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Psychology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Our western psychology as I see it is designed to apologize and forgive the personality for its errors and ignorance. But the law courts do not entirely agree. They speak of a responsibility and designate this not purely as a result of legislating, but as something innate to each human and act accordingly. Why is that ?<< Dallas, psychology was designed to figure out why people act as they do--it is the study of human behavior. The idea of forgivess only came about when studies showed that self-forgiveness has a healing effect. The "law courts" not only acknowledge psychology, but they demand it (psychological testing to assure mental competance for trial, etc). Responsibility is only legal when one is deemed mentally competant. Your psychology bashing is getting you nowhere. The reason that I went into psychology myself is my interest in people and why they act the way they do. I have no trouble at all separating psychology from Theosophy and can't understand your apparent hatred of it. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 13:12:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA09690 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:03:35 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:57:49 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Causes & Effects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Could you give us some examples of these "effects without causes?" I find that a fascinating idea. Louis>> In modern chaos theory, there are some systems that can go from order into chaos, or rather into a chaotic basin where it develops new behaviors. It turns out that there is no cause-effect relationship between such a system's behavior before it enters a basin and after. On the other hand, the now-famous butterfly effect shows that most complex systems deal with too many causes rendering them entirely unpredictable. And of course the famous Bell theorem which shows how some local effects can be produced from non-local causes, although how this is done is still a mystery. Chaotic systems are sensitive to initial conditions and sometimes these initial conditions can be so tiny as to be unmeasurable, thus effects are unpredictable and causes are insignificant. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 13:30:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA11845 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:18:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990318131723.00f99404@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:17:23 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Negativity In-Reply-To: <47416e8a.36f14704@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 01:33 PM 3/18/1999 EST, Shersy17@aol.com wrote: > >Perhaps I would do better elsewhere, and that I will consider, as that is now >two of you who have suggested I leave. In the meantime, I have one question >for this list: > >What were Blavatsky's teachings on brotherhood and love and the advancement of >the soul? > >Peace >Sherry Hi Here you can discuss any teachings you like. I do not think that you should leave. Look at the population of the world and the number of people interested in theosophy -- such a miniscule -- perhaps dwindling everyday. So everyone is very important and counts and each one of us can make a difference. ....mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 13:42:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA17104 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:29:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:21:03 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Responses to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Well.. I don't see how it helps or supports your view that self forgiveness dissolves our individual Karma which is what you seemed to be saying at the begining of this thread. This is what I was responding to, and what I believe Dallas and Louis were questioning. Have I misunderstood you?>> Perhaps "helps" dissolve would be better phrasology? What I really meant to say is that our personal karma can be consumed in a single lifetime, and that in order to do this one must first forgive others and then oneself. Obviously forgiveness alone is not enough. >>With regards to single lifetime enlightenment. ...Given HPB's and the Masters' concern for the suffering of humanity, would they not have spent at least some time encouraging us to eliminate our Karma and become 'enlightened' in this single lifetime if that were possible?>> It is not probable for 99.9% of us. My point is simply that it is possible. I keep hearing Theosophists talk about 7 more lifetimes, and countless lifetimes, and so on, and I know that this attitude is self-defeating, and that therefore a rebirth would be a self-fulfilling prophesy. I am actually not championing escape from birth-death. I rather see the goal as rebirth with full conscious awareness and memory. But this can only come about when the Wheel of Life is able to be broken because of eliminating personal karma. >>The single lifetime approach may be the view of some religions, and we are each entitled to whatever views we hold. But as far as I can see it is not the view of Theosophy.>> It is the view of Great Perfection, which HPB claimed to know and respect. There is nothing at all in her teachings that would suggest it is not possible. Another point that I keep trying to make is that maybe this life IS our 7th. How do we know that it is not? Theosophists seem to ignore the TRY and DARE commands of occultism on this one. <<...if we take into account what HPB and the Masters had to say about Chelas, then this 'beginning stage' alone seems lifetimes away for the vast majority of us.>> This is an understandable, yet self-defeating attitude. With this attitude, we will never even TRY. >>Theosophy would say that what is gained in this life for that individual is the result of many, many, lifetimes of effort. >> I would say that eveyone on this list has already had millions of lifetimes or they wouldn't be interested in this stuff. >> Even then that individual consciousness is not entirely 'free' of Karma. What is the Karma for one who enters Nirvana and leaves the rest of Humanity to suffer? >> The goal here is liberation, not entering nirvana, which is another thing altogether. Our goal is the bodhisattva. Our goal is to come back with full memory intact, for the purpose of helping others lessen their karmic burdens. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 14:41:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA28348 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:27:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <21e4e25b.36f1612f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:25:19 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Ethics & Karma Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 1:45:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << -acausal events do occur, call them chaos or God's Will or whatever. >> Jerry: I am still waiting for your examples of effects without causes. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 16:12:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA15131 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:07:14 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Victims & Criminals Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:04:33 -0800 Message-ID: <000501be7193$af865460$a90e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 18 Gerry I believe you wrongly interpret me. I quote as well as possible the statements regarding the nature of KARMA as derived directly from THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. And I would invite everyone to go there and check them out directly. I am not trying to shade HPB's definitions but only to point out how universal and impartial they are. If the motives that actuate our choices are less than universal and impersonal acts for the good of others, to that extent we are either in error, in ignorance or we are deliberately committing a crime against our Voice of Conscience and against humanity and the Universe. We are the actors, and the responsibility is solely ours. Dallas ======================= -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:49 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Victims & Criminals <> <> I was trying to get around the whole right/wrong approach here. What is important is motive. Dallas tries to single out certain particular individuals as "victims" and others as "criminals" and I am saying that we are all victims and criminals at times and in degrees. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 16:22:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA15117 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:07:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Negativity Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:04:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000401be7193$a9aa6400$a90e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990318131723.00f99404@mail.eden.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 18th Dear Shersy: It is up to you to stay or to leave. This group exchanges all kinds of ideas centered about personal views of what Theosophy says. Sometimes they are abrupt, even crude, but the intent is not to slam anyone, but to evoke a response which will help. Not every one grasps this fundamental and thus there may be affront and apparent friction ,as in a family. It does not enhance the writer's image in the minds of those he encounters. Brotherhood is the ideal we all strive for, but our expression of it appears very strange sometimes. Each then bears the Karma of their motives. We need not pay attention to those which we do not find appropriate. You had asked for a "contention free" environment in regard to theosophy. I had suggested to you to try blavatsky.net where the interchange is monitored, and crudeness is filtered out. Dallas ============================= -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of M K Ramadoss Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:17 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Negativity At 01:33 PM 3/18/1999 EST, Shersy17@aol.com wrote: > >Perhaps I would do better elsewhere, and that I will consider, as that is now >two of you who have suggested I leave. In the meantime, I have one question >for this list: > >What were Blavatsky's teachings on brotherhood and love and the advancement of >the soul? > >Peace >Sherry Hi Here you can discuss any teachings you like. I do not think that you should leave. Look at the population of the world and the number of people interested in theosophy -- such a miniscule -- perhaps dwindling everyday. So everyone is very important and counts and each one of us can make a difference. ....mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 16:27:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA15163 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:07:21 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Responses to Peter Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:04:37 -0800 Message-ID: <000601be7193$b22d5880$a90e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 18th Many thanks Gerry: I see as usual that we agree on more things that not. A difference in phrasing makes some items more "prickly" than others. Dal ====================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:21 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Responses to Peter >>Well.. I don't see how it helps or supports your view that self forgiveness dissolves our individual Karma which is what you seemed to be saying at the begining of this thread. This is what I was responding to, and what I believe Dallas and Louis were questioning. Have I misunderstood you?>> Perhaps "helps" dissolve would be better phrasology? What I really meant to say is that our personal karma can be consumed in a single lifetime, and that in order to do this one must first forgive others and then oneself. Obviously forgiveness alone is not enough. >>With regards to single lifetime enlightenment. ...Given HPB's and the Masters' concern for the suffering of humanity, would they not have spent at least some time encouraging us to eliminate our Karma and become 'enlightened' in this single lifetime if that were possible?>> It is not probable for 99.9% of us. My point is simply that it is possible. I keep hearing Theosophists talk about 7 more lifetimes, and countless lifetimes, and so on, and I know that this attitude is self-defeating, and that therefore a rebirth would be a self-fulfilling prophesy. I am actually not championing escape from birth-death. I rather see the goal as rebirth with full conscious awareness and memory. But this can only come about when the Wheel of Life is able to be broken because of eliminating personal karma. >>The single lifetime approach may be the view of some religions, and we are each entitled to whatever views we hold. But as far as I can see it is not the view of Theosophy.>> It is the view of Great Perfection, which HPB claimed to know and respect. There is nothing at all in her teachings that would suggest it is not possible. Another point that I keep trying to make is that maybe this life IS our 7th. How do we know that it is not? Theosophists seem to ignore the TRY and DARE commands of occultism on this one. <<...if we take into account what HPB and the Masters had to say about Chelas, then this 'beginning stage' alone seems lifetimes away for the vast majority of us.>> This is an understandable, yet self-defeating attitude. With this attitude, we will never even TRY. >>Theosophy would say that what is gained in this life for that individual is the result of many, many, lifetimes of effort. >> I would say that eveyone on this list has already had millions of lifetimes or they wouldn't be interested in this stuff. >> Even then that individual consciousness is not entirely 'free' of Karma. What is the Karma for one who enters Nirvana and leaves the rest of Humanity to suffer? >> The goal here is liberation, not entering nirvana, which is another thing altogether. Our goal is the bodhisattva. Our goal is to come back with full memory intact, for the purpose of helping others lessen their karmic burdens. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 16:42:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA19030 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:34:49 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:29:11 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Negativity Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 5:21:30 PM, dalval@nwc.net writes: << Sometimes they are abrupt, even crude, but the intent is not to slam anyone, but to evoke a response which will help. >> Thank you for your response Dallas. I question that telling others they are not ever going to understand the material, and are better off leaving the group, is what Theosophy intended. Discussion, imho, means listening, and adding one's opinions to the discussion, without need of harmful insults. It is just my opinion, that in keeping the circles closed only to those who agree, is no way to grow and learn. And be encouraging others to think they are intruding, not "advanced" enough, or whatever, is making the circle smaller and smaller. That is just my opinion, it is not a fact. Contention is one thing, outright arrogance is quite another, again, in my opinion. Peace, Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 16:57:51 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA18073 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:28:15 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Humor Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:25:39 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01be7196$a22c5500$a90e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <000101be713f$138defe0$c46545c2@et.u-net.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 18th Dear Eldon and Peter: I heartily endorse this too, Dal =========================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Peter Merriott Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 4:59 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Humor Eldon, I was looking for a way of saying just that, but you put it far better than I would have done. Humor can light-en a situation and have a healing quality. It can also be used offensively and defensively as you point out. Thanks, Peter > An unbalance of humor is another way of hiding from life, where > important issues are laughed away with contrived, artificial > humor, making, in its extreme aspect, bitter, mocking, hurtful > words. Balanced humor, on the other hand, will clear the air, > reestablish communication, and open hearts to one another. > > Laughter has its many shades, from bright and playful to > mocking, wounding, intentionally belittling of others. It > has the full spectrum of uses, much as serious words do. > > -- Eldon -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 16:57:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA20828 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:49:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Ethics & Karma Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:46:21 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01be7199$867b11e0$a90e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 18th Gerry : In my talks with you I have been trying to find a good word that would serve to signify the parameters of the Law of karma which we could both use as a kind of short-cut in our talks to convey from my point of view a non-human action/reaction aspect of Law which when applied to human affairs is views in part as mores, morals, ethics, and what-not - all signifying the idea that quite basic to those varies definitions there has to be a universal, and impartial something that is actuated when its laws are transgressed. If you have the LIGHT ON THE PATH, at the end of the little book is a quite useful essay on KARMA. And there I think such a definition is attempted. I see and understand KARMA to be a vast and all-inclusive law which impels evolution and then also impels the parts that free-willed human minds play each in their own sphere. Dal ============================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 10:18 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Ethics & Karma >>Of course ETHICS are UNIVERSAL as the LAW OF KARMA is UNIVERSAL. As far as I know they are inflexible. You (or I) "gets back" in terms of effect what "you sows" in terms of causes. If they have an ethical impact then you and I get an ethical response. >> Dallas, if we have any disagreement here it is doubtless in the terminology itself. I see "ethics" as a man-made code of behaviors and reaking of good and bad. Causation is indeed impersonal and has nothing at all to do with good or evil, which are our own subjective calls. Even though karma can be considered a universal law in the sense that it applies throughout our universe, it does not account for all actions--acausal events do occur, call them chaos or God's Will or whatever. I like to think of these as part of our collective karma, which is causal in a collective but not a personal sense. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 17:02:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA18037 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:28:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Psychology Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:25:23 -0800 Message-ID: <000701be7196$991250a0$a90e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 18th Dear Gerry: No hatred of modern psychology, rather an "amused hope" would be my way of putting it, and admittedly that is extreme, in view of all the effort and study that so many hundreds have put into learning it. These remarks are aimed AT NO ONE, least of all YOU. But I find that Eastern Psychology as expressed by Theosophy covers so much more and fills in the gaps so well that the (to me) sorry western attempts appear a waste of time. Western Psychology starts with the perishable consciousness of one life. Eastern Psychology starts with the pilgrimage of the immortal MONAD. One seeks to ennoble man's consciousness in this life and the other seeks to perpetuate the muddle he finds himself in, and does not relate the many "moralities" and "customs" of his present nature to the realities of an exact, impartial, fair, and ever-acting LAW. So long as the universality of Karma and the immortality of the EGO (Buddhi-Manas), (of which the present embodied personality is only a blurred copy) are not employed as a basis for the study of that embodied transitory ego, there will be confusion. However (as I see if) if you (or anyone) employs the theosophical concept, then everything falls into place. Basically the two do not mix well. Dal ================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 10:35 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Psychology >>Our western psychology as I see it is designed to apologize and forgive the personality for its errors and ignorance. But the law courts do not entirely agree. They speak of a responsibility and designate this not purely as a result of legislating, but as something innate to each human and act accordingly. Why is that ?<< Dallas, psychology was designed to figure out why people act as they do--it is the study of human behavior. The idea of forgivess only came about when studies showed that self-forgiveness has a healing effect. The "law courts" not only acknowledge psychology, but they demand it (psychological testing to assure mental competance for trial, etc). Responsibility is only legal when one is deemed mentally competant. Your psychology bashing is getting you nowhere. The reason that I went into psychology myself is my interest in people and why they act the way they do. I have no trouble at all separating psychology from Theosophy and can't understand your apparent hatred of it. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 17:11:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA18061 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:28:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Is There An Escape From Karma? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:25:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000901be7196$9f316480$a90e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 18th Gerry: As far as I can determine "escaping from Karma" is a figurative way of speaking. One can not escape from "Space" we are forever in it. Karma is an aspect of space, or if you prefer the ABSOLUTE. It is not merely the applications of UNIVERSAL LAW to humans only. It is universal as defined, and its particular attraction to the human clan is that, in the development of a mind faculty that is able to embrace the universe in terms of consciousness, the prevalence and constant action of karma (as give and take, actions and reaction) is to be grasped, understood and then complied with. I do not mean that freedom is in any way abridged. I mean that one voluntarily opts to serve and lend one's ability and capacity to the great development of universal self-consciousness. The compliance has to be voluntary and at no time does the human relinquish his/her grasp on themselves as an INDIVIDUAL. There is the general picture of two types of action: One: the INDIVIDUAL WHO FIGHTS THE CONSTRAINTS OF UNIVERSAL LAW and seeks to isolate and immobilize itself. And, TWO, the picture of an EGO, which without loosing its INDIVIDUALITY sees itself as a necessary component to Nature, and also, recognizes that Nature needs it to assist, so that it has a niche to fill. And it is then that it sets to work to fill it. It is the picture of a free man who accepts the position of a trustee, of an essential part in a vast living whole, and seeks to perform the best he can in the place where he is most needed. This alone leads to greatness and perfection, as I understand it. It is a long way and takes perhaps an aeon or so, but what is an aeon of time to an immortal ? That is all I have in mind, and all I got from Theosophy so far. Dal -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:56 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Is There An Escape From Karma? >What is the fact ? Not, "What is the way to escape unpleasantness ?"> Dallas, we still seem to be at odds here. I completely agree with the "original" Theosophical teachings and yet disagree with you, or what is more likely your interpretation. You constantly harp on the impossibility to "escape" from karma, and yet this is exactly the message of Buddha who taught that indeed, there is an escape. Its usually called liberation. Nirvana is an escape from samsara, and this is the goal of many. But the Great Perfection school together with HPB taught that we must be liberated even from nirvana. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 17:42:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA27896 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:39:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Drpsionic@aol.com Message-ID: <7c87a255.36f18e47@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:37:43 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Victims & Criminals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 99-03-18 13:30:43 EST, you write: << Dallas tries to single out certain particular individuals as "victims" and others as "criminals" and I am saying that we are all victims and criminals at times and in degrees. Jerry S. >> And given the choice it is infinitely better to be the criminal than the victim. Chuck -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 17:57:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA29210 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:51:14 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: RE: Theos-World Negativity Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:48:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01be71a2$37e44520$a90e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 18th Dear Shersy: Theosophy at no time ever said in effect: You cannot inquire." Rather, It encourages the most vigorous investigation. The idea is that what is TRUE is true for all people, at all times and in all places. Instead of setting up fences, it breaks them down, and especially those fences erected by education, custom and up-bringing in people's minds so that they may have lost that universal sense of brotherhood and consanguinity, that ought to be natural to us all. The human soul/ego has neither sex, caste, color, nor nationality. And reincarnation would enable us to incarnate in any part of the world for which we have developed karmic affinity and responsibility. You are quite right that if thee is a closed mind there can be no growth. I would look for minds that are open and free and can envisage the grandest of horizons. I wonder if you have read THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY by H P B. In that she gives you in a short volume the overview of Theosophical philosophy,. She also indicates in the "practical section" the potential impact of theosophical doctrines on our society, should they be adopted. Best wishes, Dallas ================================ -----Or iginal Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Shersy17@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 2:29 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Negativity In a message dated 3/18/99 5:21:30 PM, dalval@nwc.net writes: << Sometimes they are abrupt, even crude, but the intent is not to slam anyone, but to evoke a response which will help. >> Thank you for your response Dallas. I question that telling others they are not ever going to understand the material, and are better off leaving the group, is what Theosophy intended. Discussion, imho, means listening, and adding one's opinions to the discussion, without need of harmful insults. It is just my opinion, that in keeping the circles closed only to those who agree, is no way to grow and learn. And be encouraging others to think they are intruding, not "advanced" enough, or whatever, is making the circle smaller and smaller. That is just my opinion, it is not a fact. Contention is one thing, outright arrogance is quite another, again, in my opinion. Peace, Sherry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 22:41:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA29516 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:22:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:18:09 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Karma Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 1:25:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: <> Jerry, It seems to me, that if causation applies to all planes, then so do the resultant effects. Action and reaction is simply another way of saying that Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 22:56:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA29940 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:28:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:24:12 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Victims & Criminals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 1:30:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << I was trying to get around the whole right/wrong approach here. What is important is motive. >> Which is why you can't get around the right/wrong thing. Louis. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 23:13:52 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA01717 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:10:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <874f4a41.36f1db71@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:06:57 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Psychology Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 2:00:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << Dallas, psychology was designed to figure out why people act as they do--it is the study of human behavior. >> Jerry, The STUDY of human behavior is an academic exercise. I do not see that it has anything to do with knowing what a persons intent was in a given behavior. Knowing intent, is at best, an endless speculation. << The "law courts" not only acknowledge psychology, but they demand it>> This could be one of the reasons why the court system is failing so badly. In a recent study, it was discovered, that where capital punishment is practiced, one in every six people have been found wrongly accused of the crime they were executed for. After the fact, of course. Add to that, all of the truly guilty who are on the street as a result of those expert psychological testimonies and I would say with Dallas that perhaps psychology, psychologists and the legal profession need another look. <> Oh? You do this for free?? <> Perhaps this is where the problem lies. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 23:43:42 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA03312 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:31:14 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <55d433aa.36f1e0c1@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:29:37 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Causes & Effects Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 2:11:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: << there are some systems that can go from order into chaos, >> And these systems would be???????? <> So if you cant predict effects, related to causes, one should conclude there is no relationship? Seems to me the only real conclusion here is, we are not good at prediction. <> If you "put it in" over here and "it comes out " over there. It's still the same "it" and it's still the same cause and effect. I say again, give me specific examples of effects without causes. All you did is spout chaos theory, not fact. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 18 23:58:21 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA04361 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:43:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <6ea3f7e0.36f1e39d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:41:49 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Victims & Criminals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 6:42:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Drpsionic@aol.com writes: << And given the choice it is infinitely better to be the criminal than the victim. >> And given infinity, odds are, you will be both. So enjoy your "choice" cause the other one is coming. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 00:02:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA04686 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:49:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36F1E531.756C8E7E@eden.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:48:33 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Psychology References: <874f4a41.36f1db71@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Teos9@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/18/99 2:00:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, > schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: > > << Dallas, psychology was designed to figure out why people act > as they do--it is the study of human behavior. >> > > Jerry, > > The STUDY of human behavior is an academic exercise. I do not see that it has > anything to do with knowing what a persons intent was in a given behavior. > Knowing intent, is at best, an endless speculation. > > << The "law courts" > not only acknowledge psychology, but they demand it>> > > This could be one of the reasons why the court system is failing so badly. In > a recent study, it was discovered, that where capital punishment is practiced, > one in every six people have been found wrongly accused of the crime they were > executed for. After the fact, of course. Add to that, all of the truly guilty > who are on the street as a result of those expert psychological testimonies > and I would say with Dallas that perhaps psychology, psychologists and the > legal profession need another look. What did Shakespeare say about legal profession? At his time there was no psychology? mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 02:57:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id CAA16576 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:52:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:50:47 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Robert Crosbie: His Special Status in the ULT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/17/99 6:09:22 AM, davidgreen@hotmail.com writes: >>>Who are these agents, one might ask? >> >>Can you prove that you have "earned the right to know"? If so, I'll tell you? > >Like, hey man, you're serious about this????? I can barely earn a >paycheck. S--t, I didn't know I had to earn "the right to know." How >do you do that? Not altogether... If you think I was talking about long dead agents.:~) Sorry, you didn't "get it".... But serious and intuitive theosophical "students" would know what I meant... (Although I'm pretty sure you are quite "serious" about looking for ways to denigrate the one who made that original statement.) So, I don't know how you, personally, can earn the right. That's for you to find out. I was only quoting you quoting RC--with a bit of tongue in cheek to counteract your sarcasm.:-) Besides, that statement was originally directed at theosophists who had already studied HPB and the Masters--knew what it meant to be "Chela's" and "Adepts"--and knew what RC meant by "earning the right to know." The same still holds today (among "real" theosophists) I'm sure. > >This blows me away. You're getting a little too heavy & metaphysical on >me. Well, if you expect to Judge those theosophists like HPB, WQJ and RC, whose whole life, writings and philosophies were wrapped up in metaphysics, you'd better do some research in their theosophical writings to find out where they were coming from and what they were talking about before you ask foolish questions, make prejudicial judgments and snide remarks, or listen to the self-serving "dead letter" gossip of old time participants in internecine organizational battles. >C'mon man tell us, don't keep secrets. Who were these agents in 1915? > >I bet Mr Crosbie was the main one. How would I know any more about 1915 than you can read in the standard theosophical literature and figure out for yourself? I could only tell you who they might be now. (The only hint I can give to those who haven't yet "earned the right to know", is that they certainly would not be working "through" any current TS organizational spinoff.;-) And the only ones, outside of other adepts who might know them, might be the historians of the next century who will be reprting on the results of their work. This time around, there will not be a focus on "visible" leaders to be attacked like they were in the past (and who still are--by agents of the other "Lodge" we might assume--of which you might even be a member.). Also, theosophical organizations and esoteric sections are a thing of the past. They did their job by showing us that such elitist things never work and that we have to carry forward the Movement through individual self devised and self determined efforts--each as a nuclei of universal brotherhood--without the trappings of hierarchical organizations that always breed separation in the long run. (This, for the benefit of other serious theosophists in this forum who know where the true esoteric teaching comes from, where it hides, and how to find it. But, keep it to yourselves. And, especially, don't spill any beans to Know nothing, freebooting, Trojan horse "historians" ;-) As for your last remark... That sounds like a bit or sarcasm to me, and might be taken as another sign of a prejudicial attitude--which is somewhat evident in all your posts so far--as others have pointed out. So, why don't you study RC's philosophy and find out what he meant by all that? Maybe you ought to read his notes on the Bhagavad Gita (more than half of which he finished after WQJ died). It might give you some idea of whether or not he had the status of an HPB or WQJ, or was one of the agents of the theosophical movement. As I see it, his founding of the ULT without "leaders" or the trappings of organizational structure--to counteract the failures of the TS--was enough, in itself, to give him the status of a major agent of the Masters. Whether he was the main one or not in the earlier half cycle of the TM is not for me to say... Although I wouldn't bet against you. The ULT idea of independent study in small groups whether in or outside of a formal Lodge is still alive and kicking. As far as I'm concerned, study of the history of the movement, has very little to do with the study and practice of theosophy, or fulfillment of the aims of the theosophical movement (which I assume is the main interest of these theosophical forums). Therefore, I don't think I'll have much more to say about all this negative propaganda about theosophical teachers of the past and leave it for others to defend them if there's any need to. As for those "agents" of the present movement... Well, what we don't know (because we haven't "earned the right"), can't hurt them.;-) Let's just leave it at that and get on with our regular business. In the meantime, I'm sure, theosophy will hold up on its own merits. And, the "agents" will take care of their own business... While we leave the nitpicks to pick their nits. As for the critical historians and philologists--who have no inkling of what theosophy is all about. Let them talk to each other about what they can only see as "flickering shadows on a wall". Best wishes to all true searchers, Leon -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 03:12:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id DAA17328 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:07:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: RE: Theos-World Nirvana and appropriation Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:05:38 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be71e7$a8b6f820$665895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Rich, > In a message dated 3/17/99 2:22:25 PM, Peter wrote: > > < 'merge', or even the notion of 'merging into', > 'attaining', or 'reaching' Nirvana. In fact these > phrases are used over and over again in the > Secret Doctrine and in the Mahatma Letters when > HPB and the Mahatmas refer to Nirvana. >> > > Fair enough Peter, and I think I was probably wrong to quibble over words. Thanks Rich, - sometimes something just 'jumps out' at us in another persons post, doesn't it? It is a very difficult medium to communicate in. You add: > HPB and the Mahatmas were forced to use words in English that > would make sense to Christianized ears. I don't think we're > in that position today. Nirvana is explained much better in > original Buddhist texts. (Yes, I'm aware that various > reactionary Theosophical elements will now flame me for DARING to > criticize the English usage of HPB and her teachers.) I'm not sure I would agree with the "explained much better", at least not for me. But you are right in saying that HPB & the Mahatmas had to struggle to find the language that would be understood at the time. > In any case, I think the essence of our little debate > is that you are taking the view of the individuality > which is IN manifestation, "looking up" as it were to > its source. I am taking the view of the Source, which is > unperturbed by the variegated Mayavic display of manifestation. Yes, that a good way of putting it, Rich. > From this point of view, however "high" Manasic > development may be, it is still transient, mayavic, and > ultimately unreal. Agreed. Challenging isn't it, that everything, even the most spiritual, in this Universe is only 'temporary' and 'relatively real'! > I frankly admit that in my day to day life I hardly > ever hold the perspective of the Higher Self, but > in meditation this is not so. I think that's very worthwhile - to be able to have even that one inner space where one can be in touch with the "Higher Self". > Little Rich Taylor and his tiny little Manas is nothing > in light of the unmanifest Atman, which is indeed > above Karma, beyond causation, never wrapped up in the > body or the concerns of the vehicles. That reminds me of what HPB writes about Atman: "As this [Atman] can neither be located nor limited in philosophy, being simply that which is in Eternity, and which cannot be absent from even the tiniest geometrical or mathematical point of the universe of matter or substance, it ought not to be called, in truth, a "human" principle at all. Rather, and at best, it is in Metaphysics, that point in space which the human Monad and its vehicle man occupy for the period of every life. Now that point is as imaginary as man himself, and in reality is an illusion, a maya; but then for ourselves, as for other personal Egos, we are a reality during that fit of illusion called life, and we have to take ourselves into account, in our own fancy at any rate, if no one else does." May the light of that 'awareness', of which you speak, increasingly permeate your daily life. Best wishes Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 06:57:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA06393 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:49:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Psychology Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:47:52 -0000 Message-ID: <000101be7206$b3eee260$665895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <36F1E531.756C8E7E@eden.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Doss, I'm sure it is worth hearing. What did he say? Peter > What did Shakespeare say about legal profession? At his time there was no > psychology? > > mkr > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 07:02:49 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA06442 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:50:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Responses to Peter Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:47:53 -0000 Message-ID: <000201be7206$b4b84ce0$665895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Jerry, I have inserted my comments below, between your replies. with regards, Peter ------------ Jerry writes: > Perhaps "helps" dissolve would be better phrasology? > What I really meant to say is that our personal karma > can be consumed in a single lifetime, and that in order > to do this one must first forgive others and then oneself. > Obviously forgiveness alone is not enough. Thanks, I now have a clearer understanding of what you were saying. > >>With regards to single lifetime enlightenment. ...Given HPB's and > the Masters' concern for the suffering of humanity, would they not have > spent at least some time encouraging us to eliminate our Karma and > become 'enlightened' in this single lifetime if that were possible?>> > > It is not probable for 99.9% of us. My point is simply that > it is possible. Indeed Jerry, as HPB says in the qoute I offered you - it is a possibility as a rare exception. But what those exceptions are we have yet to discover. > I keep hearing Theosophists talk about > 7 more lifetimes, and countless lifetimes, and so on, > and I know that this attitude is self-defeating, and that > therefore a rebirth would be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Perhaps one reason you keep hearing about countless lifetimes is because HPB and the Masters mention it throughout all of their teachings. This long term view of spiritual, mental and physical evolution, along with the doctrine of Cycles, is the Second and Third Fundamental Propositions of the Secret Doctrine. Take another look in the Secret Doctrine where HPB, KH & M give a very definite outline of the magnificent scope of evolution over millions of years, root races, rounds and so on. Theosophy teaches that we have only just passed the midway point in this 4th Round. All this involves many, many, lifetimes - behind us and ahead of us. Do you therefore believe that HPB and her Teachers had a "self defeating" attitude? > and I know that this attitude is self-defeating, and that > therefore a rebirth would be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Are you also really saying that we continue to be reborn just because we think we will? How would that account for the majority of people in the world, in their hundred of millions, who do not believe in rebirth? Where is the self-fulfilling prophecy there? > I am actually not championing escape from birth-death. > I rather see the goal as rebirth with full conscious > awareness and memory. But this can only come about > when the Wheel of Life is able to be broken because > of eliminating personal karma. Is it possible that there is much much more to "liberation" than eliminating personal Karma? What does that last phrase mean? As we 'know', Karma is an impersonal Law. With regards to humanity, there is Individual and Collective Karma. It is the reincarnating Ego, not the personality, that is held accountable for the actions of the different personalities in each life. It also has to take collective responsibility for the Karma generated by the group, the Nation, into which it incarnates. If it is reborn, even with full conscious awareness, will it not continue to generate either 'good' or 'bad' Karma? Will it not continue to share resposibility for the collective Karma? > >>The single lifetime approach may be the view of some religions, and we > are each entitled to whatever views we hold. But as far as I can see it > is not the view of Theosophy.>> > It is the view of Great Perfection, which HPB claimed to > know and respect. There is nothing at all in her teachings > that would suggest it is not possible. HPB and her Teachers respected the esoteric truths of many Religions but clearly did not endorse every view that each one held. What HPB and the Masters *did* believe and taught can be found in their own Teachings, for all to see. (see above) > Another point that I keep trying to make > is that maybe this life IS our 7th. > How do we know that it is not? Jerry, if we have to ask, we don't know. This idea reminds me of certain well known people in the early days of the TS (after HPB died) who needed other people to tell them what spiritual stage they had reached. I'll avoid real names, but the following is the kind of thing these people reported about themselves. Gill wakes up after a nights sleep to be told by someone else that she (Gill) had taken her 3rd, 4th or even 5th Initiation while she was asleep. Gill has no memory of this, of course, but still acccepts the relevent degree of Arhat / Bodhisattva bestowed upon her. Some even ended up with higher degrees than the Masters which they professed to be pupils! If we want to get some small idea of what it means to "enter the stream" and have seven more remaining incarantions, then we can look in the Collected Writings where HPB offers a small ideas as to what it means to be a Chela and a Mahatma. Or look in the Mahatma Letters where KH and M speak of what it means to be an Adept. Aside from developing the moral character, it requires an intense level of training and development of the spiritual principles over a number of incarnations, and through a series of 'trials'. Even KH, who when acting as an adept is infallible, says he is not yet a 'full Adept'. Do you think HPB, KH or M would not know if they were on their 'seventh life' - even if this whole notion was valid and not an esoteric blind? > Theosophists seem to ignore > the TRY and DARE commands of occultism on this one. This is a sweeping generalisation based on assumption. Who are we to assume what occult commands other people choose to live their lives by. For as HPB says: "The motto of the true Occultist [is]: To know, to dare, and to KEEP SILENT." (Her emphasis.) > <<...if we take into account what HPB and the Masters had to say about > Chelas, then this 'beginning stage' alone seems lifetimes away for the > vast majority of us.>> >> > This is an understandable, yet self-defeating attitude. > With this attitude, we will never even TRY. Come now, Jerry, this repeated attribution of negative attitudes to other theosophists in this group adds nothing to the validity to your arguments, nor does it lessen the validity of views different to your own. If my memory serves me right, is it not you who maintains that when people ascribe negative attitudes to others in this group they are projecting? > >>Theosophy would say that what is gained in this life for that > individual is the result of many, many, lifetimes of effort. >> > > I would say that eveyone on this list has already had > millions of lifetimes or they wouldn't be interested in this > stuff. Possibly, but that has little to do with the example I was offering. Nor does it account for those other people with "millions of lifetimes" who aren't interested "in this stuff", as you put it. To repeat: a great soul who appears to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, may 'appear' to have achieved it in one life only, but Theosophy would state that it is actually the result of many lives *of spiritual effort*. > >> Even then that individual consciousness is not entirely 'free' of > Karma. What is the Karma for one who enters Nirvana and leaves the rest > of Humanity to suffer? >> > > The goal here is liberation, not entering nirvana, which > is another thing altogether. Our goal is the bodhisattva. > Our goal is to come back with full memory intact, for > the purpose of helping others lessen their karmic burdens. > That's a very noble and worthy aspiration. What I was hoping to communicate was that we are never 'free' of Karma, even if we enter Nirvana. PMM --------- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 07:12:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA06794 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:58:02 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Blavatsky.net = STUDY" Subject: Theos-World Some musings on the theosophial Movement -- Metaphysics and Physics Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 05:54:58 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01be7210$14f81b40$2b0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 19th Dallas offers: Thought on Theosophical metaphysics can lead us to thinking about the great Theosophical Movement as it may be traced, now and in the past. There is a great difference between the Theosophical Movement and any Theosophical Society. The movement is "moral, ethical, spiritual, universal, invisible save in effect, and continuous." A society or a "body" however constituted is formed for theosophical work, and is a visible organization. It is the resultant, the effect of a cause. It is a kind of "machine" for the conservation of energy and putting it to use. It cannot be said to be universal, or continuous. It is brought into being by those who want to cooperate, to study, to inquire of each other, and to offer help to others. But even so, it is only an "outer shell," and must change eventually, and, as the great underlying spiritual movement compels such changes. And that comes under our continuing observation. The Theosophical Movement, being continuous, is to be found in all times and in all nations, though perhaps working under other names. But it can be traced by the principles, all of which are common and are: universality and brotherhood, teaching the laws of the universe and personal assistance to the needy, it is always to be found inspiring study in all departments of nature, and therefore it is the foe of ignorance and bigotry wherever those are found. It stands for the freedom of the individual and recommends cooperation as the strongest basis for individual and joint progress. "Wherever thought has struggled to be free, wherever spiritual ideas as opposed to forms and dogmatism have been promulgated, there the great movement is to be discerned." Wherever Brotherhood has been advanced, there the great movement thrives. At times it is well-known and then at other times its thread of life is sustained by a few valiant individuals who pursue its practices and try to inspire others to find and use them also. To worship an organization, is to worship a "form." Worship can easily turn into dogmatism and an imposition of singular views. Our portion of the Theosophical Movement, spearheaded by Mme. Blavatsky, strove to overthrow such a view and practice. To worship an organization, however wonderful as to aim and objects can lead to a nullification of brotherhood at the first strain. HPB declared self, that it were better to do away with the Society than to forget and destroy brotherhood. It has been said that the Source of all beings is ONE, and that the Goal is also that ONE. Put in practice the "Path" varies and is shaped by each Pilgrim-soul. We are all at some one step in our own evolution where we are presented with one or another of the steps (it is our own Karma that does such presentation) that can lead us towards our chosen goal, or, if neglected, can delay us. We must remember that it is our own HIGHER SELF (the ATMA within, or rather, "above" us) that is luring us ever on to success. And this Atma, the Higher Self, is one with all the Higher selves of that vast multitude of intelligences of every degree that are the uncountable "children," the "sons" of the great Mother. This figurative Mother some represent to themselves as our UNIVERSE. And the "Father" is the ever-present but never to be identified CENTRAL SPIRITUAL SUN from which all force, all life radiates on every one of us, from Atom to Galaxy. The "Bhagavad Gita" is a book that can be inspiring. It can give us food for meditation for many a day and night. In the night its ideas are digested and returned partly the next day to the mind. It is said to be the study of Adepts. How does Karma operate. We see it dimly. If we direct ourselves to the struggle of overcoming our past Karma the struggle intensifies and is tremendous because the old habits of thought and action resist the alteration. The load of old errors rushes forward and events sued each other with great rapidity seeking to unsettle our resolve. The whole fabric of our life groans and rocks, and as said in ancient books, one may go through the appointed course of life change in 700 births in 7 years or in 7 minutes. But always the imperishable SELF - the divine Ego - survives. In the Gita (chapter 12) we read: "Freedom comes from a renunciation of self-interest in the fruit of one's actions." Self-interest is always a matter of thinking. We can have no "attachment" for anything we do not think abut, nor can we have dislike for a thing we do not think about. If we find that confronting us are things that are right and proper to be done, we should do them, regardless of whether they promises or failure as mean measure those things. Krishna says that final emancipation immediately come from such renunciation, thus, He places "complete renunciation" as the highest goal. He also states that "renunciation" is superior to meditation. This is because it is by "meditation on the end in view," that renunciation comes. It comes from an understanding of our own immortality, of the immortality of all beings in nature, and of the immutability of the great law of Karma which envelops every being and harmonizes the fact of our joint living in this world. We all depend on the rest. We share and draw and exchange our lives with them constantly. In this may meditation is superior to knowledge because "right-knowledge" produces "right-meditation." And, Knowledge (of facts and events and potential results) is better than "constant practice" because it is practice that begets knowledge. A complete chain. I think this is one way in which we can trace the merging of physics into metaphysics, of the life we lead in our every-day being with that of the Mind that can soar way beyond the humdrum and the ordinary - which have their own place and deserve our attention and guidance. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 09:41:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA21707 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:31:10 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <006801be721b$5fb78a20$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Karma--to Dallas Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:15:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01BE71F1.7628E080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BE71F1.7628E080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>I quote as well as possible the statements regarding the nature of KARMA as derived directly from THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. And I would invite everyone to go there and check them out directly.<< Dallas, your quotes don't help us much, because I use the same source. Perhaps its in the interpretation? Remember that HPB also says that golden chains are as binding as iron, and that all karma must be dissolved (Inner Group Teachings). Jerry S ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BE71F1.7628E080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>I quote as well as possible the statements regarding the=20 nature
of KARMA as derived directly from THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY.  = And=20 I
would invite everyone to go there and check them out=20 directly.<<
 
Dallas, your quotes don't help us much, because I use the same=20 source.
Perhaps its in the interpretation? Remember that HPB also says = that
golden chains are as binding as iron, and that all karma must = be
dissolved (Inner Group Teachings).
 
Jerry S
------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BE71F1.7628E080-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 09:56:15 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA23158 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:41:33 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <007001be721c$d8668240$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World What is Karma? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:26:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006D_01BE71F2.EEF96A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01BE71F2.EEF96A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>I see and understand KARMA to be a vast and all-inclusive law which impels evolution and then also impels the parts that free-willed human minds play each in their own sphere. Dal>> I think that your definition is way way too broad, and this is probably the heart of our disagreements. I see Karma as identical to the=20 law of causality known to physics. Evolution is impelled by Kundalini, which doubtless works through karma but is not karma itself.=20 Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01BE71F2.EEF96A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>I see and understand KARMA to be a vast and all-inclusive=20 law
which impels evolution and then also impels the parts = that
free-willed=20 human minds play each in their own sphere.
Dal>>
 
I think that your definition is way way too broad, and this is=20 probably
the heart of our disagreements. I see Karma as identical to the =
law of causality known to physics. Evolution is impelled by=20 Kundalini,
which doubtless works through karma but is not karma itself.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_006D_01BE71F2.EEF96A60-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 10:08:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA24398 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:50:03 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <007801be721e$067a0d40$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Psychology Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:34:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0075_01BE71F4.1D0CF560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01BE71F4.1D0CF560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>But I find that Eastern Psychology as expressed by Theosophy covers so much more and fills in the gaps so well that the (to me) sorry western attempts appear a waste of time.<< Well, I guess I just don't see it that way myself. To say that my irrational behavior is my karma just doesn't help me much. Its=20 rather like saying that its God's Will. Modern psychology, excluding transpersonal, looks at only this life, but it does go far to show why we do things and how the human mind (manas) works, which even Theosophy lacks. Psychology, especially Jungian, says that virtually all of our problems can be resolved by conscious awareness. It is the repressed or forgotten things that bite us in the tail. This is not so different, I think, from Eastern psychology. But I don't find an emphasis on being more conscious in Theosophy. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01BE71F4.1D0CF560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>But I find that Eastern Psychology as expressed by=20 Theosophy
covers so much more and fills in the gaps so well that the=20 (to
me) sorry western attempts appear a waste of time.<<
 
Well, I guess I just don't see it that way myself. = To say that=20 my
irrational behavior is my = karma just=20 doesn't help me much. Its
rather like = saying that its God's Will. Modern psychology, = excluding
transpersonal, looks at only this life, but it does = go far to=20 show why
we do things and how the human mind (manas) works,=20 which
even Theosophy lacks. Psychology, especially = Jungian,=20 says
that virtually all of our problems can be = resolved by=20 conscious
awareness. It is the repressed or forgotten things that bite us in=20 the
tail. This is not so different, I think, from Eastern psychology. = But
I don't find an emphasis on being more conscious in = Theosophy.
 
Jerry S.

 
------=_NextPart_000_0075_01BE71F4.1D0CF560-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 10:11:25 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA25418 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:56:54 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <008201be721e$fcaaf440$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World This Life Expresses All Past Lives Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:41:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007F_01BE71F5.12E9F000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BE71F5.12E9F000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Western Psychology starts with the perishable consciousness of one life.<< Dallas, as you know, our body this time around is the cumulative expression of all of our past lives and is, in fact, our chrystallized karma at this evolutionary moment. Don't denigrate your body or your mind that you have in this life; it carries the baggage (fruit) of all of your past with it. If you can explain your behavior in this life, then you can explain it over the course of your evolutionary lifetimes. The karma that we each have in this life expresses in=20 miniature our karmic burden built up over the past countless=20 millions of lifetimes. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BE71F5.12E9F000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Western Psychology starts with the perishable consciousness = of
one=20 life.<<
 
Dallas, as you know, our body = this time=20 around is the cumulative
expression of=20 all of our past lives and is, in fact, our chrystallized
karma at this evolutionary moment. Don't denigrate = your=20 body
or your mind that you have in this life; it carries = the=20 baggage (fruit)
of all of your past with it. If you can explain your = behavior=20 in this
life, then you can explain it over the course = of your=20 evolutionary
lifetimes. The karma that we each have in this life expresses=20 in 
miniature our karmic burden built up over the past countless
millions of lifetimes.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BE71F5.12E9F000-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 10:26:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA28412 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:19:50 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <00a801be7222$313712e0$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Self-Defeating? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:04:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BE71F8.478FFF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BE71F8.478FFF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Do you therefore believe that HPB and her Teachers had a "self = defeating" attitude?<< I believe that they only gave out what they felt would be understood at the time. The doctrine of moksha and jivamukti would not have been understood. They had to spend the vast amount of their efforts just=20 explaining the basic concepts of karma and reincarnation, which were pretty much new concepts to the West. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BE71F8.478FFF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>Do you therefore believe that HPB and her Teachers had a = "self=20 defeating"
attitude?<<
 
I believe that they only gave out what they felt would be = understood
at the time. The doctrine of moksha and jivamukti would not have = been
understood. They had to spend the vast amount of their efforts just =
explaining the basic concepts of karma and reincarnation, = which
were pretty much new concepts to the West.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BE71F8.478FFF40-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 10:29:54 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA27423 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:10:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <00a001be7220$e2b9cd20$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Re: Psychology Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:55:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009D_01BE71F6.F6B800A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BE71F6.F6B800A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>The STUDY of human behavior is an academic exercise. I do not see that = it has anything to do with knowing what a persons intent was in a given = behavior. Knowing intent, is at best, an endless speculation.<< I am sorry to hear you think that there is no connection between behavior and intent. As far as I know, psychology acknowledges such a connection. Don't forget, the road to Hell is paved by good intentions... <<< The "law courts" not only acknowledge psychology, but they demand = it>>> >>This could be one of the reasons why the court system is failing so = badly. In a recent study, it was discovered, that where capital punishment is = practiced,... >>> I think we are all in agrement on this list that capital publishment is wrong and should be abolished. Most psychologists would probably agree too. <>> <> Although you are being cutsy here, no, I don't take money. I work as a contractor for the Gov. and write. My psychology is used working with children, for which I get no money but for which I get much more than money can ever buy. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BE71F6.F6B800A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>The STUDY of human behavior is an academic exercise. I do = not see=20 that it has
anything to do with knowing what a persons intent was in = a given=20 behavior.
Knowing intent, is at best, an endless = speculation.<<
 
I am sorry to hear you think = that there is=20 no connection between
behavior=20 and intent. As far as I know, psychology acknowledges
such a connection. Don't forget, the road to Hell is paved by
good intentions...
 


<<< The "law courts" not only = acknowledge=20 psychology, but they demand it>>>
>>This could be one = of the=20 reasons why the court system is failing so badly. In
a recent study, = it was=20 discovered, that where capital punishment is practiced,...
>>>
 
I think we are all in agrement on this list that = capital=20 publishment
is wrong and should be abolished. Most = psychologists=20 would
probably agree too.
 

<<The reason that I went into psychology
myself is my = interest=20 in people and why they act the way
they do>>>
<<Oh? = You do=20 this for free??>>
 
Although you are being cutsy here, no, I don't take
money. I work as a contractor for the Gov. and write.
My psychology is used working with children, for
which I get no money but for which I get much more
than money can ever buy.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BE71F6.F6B800A0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 10:41:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA28713 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:23:35 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <00b001be7222$b6b01480$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Who's Ready? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:08:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BE71F8.CD42FCA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BE71F8.CD42FCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <> Agreed. But maybe there are a few who do ask, and it is to them only that I say these things. Anyone who feels unready or unworthy obviously still has work to do, and can kindly disregard all my postings on the topic of liberation. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BE71F8.CD42FCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<<Jerry, if we have to ask, we don't know.  >>
 
Agreed. But maybe there = are a few who do=20 ask, and
it is to them only that I = say these=20 things. Anyone who
feels unready or = unworthy=20 obviously still has work to do,
and can kindly disregard all my postings on the topic of
liberation.
 
Jerry = S.
------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BE71F8.CD42FCA0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 10:56:19 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA31525 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:52:39 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <00c801be7226$b56d1060$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Some Responses and Defenses Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:36:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE71FC.CBCD9DE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE71FC.CBCD9DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Come now, Jerry, this repeated attribution of negative attitudes to = other theosophists in this group adds nothing to the validity to your = arguments, nor does it lessen the validity of views different to your own. << First of all, I am not trying to win converts. Secondly, I do not mean to imply that my views are valid while those of others are invalid. The fear of psychism and liberation, and the feeling of unworthiness because it is such a terribly hard Path that takes seven lifetimes and so on is a valid point of view for those who are indeed not ready to get into such things. The TSs fear publishing such things because they know damn well that someone out there will get hurt by it. I understand this. I just think that sometimes they go a little overboard. To err on the side of caution is not necessarily the way to go with occult matters. I feel it important just to discuss these = important subjects. Liberation is an option that is available to anyone, but not if we are ignorant of it. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE71FC.CBCD9DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>Come now, Jerry, this repeated attribution of negative = attitudes to=20 other
theosophists in this group adds nothing to the validity to your = arguments,
nor does it lessen the validity of views different to your = own.=20 <<
 
First of all, I am not trying to win converts. Secondly, I do not=20 mean
to imply that my views are valid while those of others are invalid. = The
fear of psychism and liberation, and the feeling of = unworthiness
because it is such a terribly hard Path that takes seven = lifetimes
and so on is a valid point of view for those who are indeed = not
ready to get into such things. The TSs fear publishing such = things
because they know damn well that someone out there will get = hurt
by it. I understand this. I just think that sometimes they go a=20 little
overboard. To err on the side of caution is not necessarily = the
way to go with occult matters. I feel it important just to discuss = these=20
important subjects. Liberation is an option that is available = to
anyone, but not if we are ignorant of it.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE71FC.CBCD9DE0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 11:04:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA30541 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:42:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <00c001be7225$52628fa0$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Are TRY and DARE in Today's TSs? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:27:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE71FB.67AD6760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE71FB.67AD6760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Theosophists seem to ignore >> the TRY and DARE commands of occultism on this one. >This is a sweeping generalisation based on assumption. =20 No, its based on reading the materials disseminated by the TSs today. From Judge down through today there is a strong caution (to put it mildly) against even TRYing anything at all that smacks of psychism. There is NO mention of the possibility of liberation in a single lifetime in any TS literature that I am aware of even though it is a central tenent in Tibetan Buddhism and is part of the teachings of Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism. Am I wrong? I hope so, but I don't think so. I view the entire TS milieu today as one of extreme conservativism, which is why I am certain that HPB would never be accepted=20 by the TSs today if her reincarnation were here. The whole concept of TRY and DARE is downplayed and warned against in today's TSs unless you believe that TRY-to-be-moral and DARE-to-be-nice are what these occult terms mean. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE71FB.67AD6760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> Theosophists seem to ignore
>> the TRY and DARE = commands=20 of occultism on this one.
>This is a sweeping generalisation based = on=20 assumption. 
 
No, its based on reading the materials disseminated
by the TSs today. From Judge down through today there
is a strong caution (to put it mildly) against even TRYing
anything at all that smacks of psychism. There is NO
mention of the possibility of liberation in a single lifetime
in any TS literature that = I am aware of=20 even though it is
a central tenent in = Tibetan Buddhism and=20 is part of the
teachings of Buddhism, = Hinduism, and=20 Taoism. Am I
wrong? I hope so, but I = don't think so.=20 I view the entire
TS milieu today as = one of extreme=20 conservativism, which
is why I am certain that HPB would never be accepted
by the TSs today if her reincarnation were here. The
whole concept of TRY and DARE is downplayed and
warned against in today's TSs unless you believe that
TRY-to-be-moral and DARE-to-be-nice are what
these occult terms mean.
 
Jerry = S.
------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE71FB.67AD6760-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 11:11:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA31558 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:52:49 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990319165126.7630.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Supposed Denigration of Mr Robert Crosbie & other U.L.T. items Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:51:25 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Leon Maurer wrote--- "I'm pretty sure you are quite 'serious' about looking for ways to denigrate the one [Mr Robert Crosbie] who made that original statement." I'm not looking for ways to denigrate Mr Crosbie. But I'm interested in examining whether Mr Crosbie made "occult" claims & exactly what those claims were. I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are generally very skeptical & even sometimes disdainful of the claims of Mrs Tingley, Mrs Besant, Mr Hargrove, Mr Leadbeater, Mrs Bailey &c, but apparently accept without question Mr Crosbie's claims. (Many associates naively believe that Mr Crosbie made no claims. I've published several citations documenting some of Mr Crosbie's claims & also documenting that writers of U.L.T.'s publications have made special claims for Mr Crosbie.) I'm even more puzzled & quite interested in the type of hysterical response many U.L.T. associates have to any questioning of the claims of Mr Crosbie & U.L.T. Mr Richard Taylor's latest effusion on the subject & his harsh words directed towards me are the most recent example of this quite (IMO) paradoxical & even somewhat bizarre behavior. Examining U.L.T. publications, one finds considerable amount of historical material in which annoymous authors have harshly criticized & (some would say) have denigrated other Theosophical societies & their leaders. Examine---- [1] series of articles "Masters and Their Message: Some Chapters from Theosophical History" written by Mr Crosbie & published in "Theosophy" magazine, 1914-1915. [2] series of articles "The Theosophical Movement" written by Mr Garriques et al & published in "Theosophy" magazine 1920-1922. Reprinted in book form same title 1925. [3] series of articles "Aftermath" published in "Theosophy" magazine 1935. These articles contain snide, sarcastic & vitrolic language in their denunciation of all other Theosophical groups, officials & leaders. It is hard for me to conceive how I or anyone else could write more negative or partisan material than what is found in this 1935 series. [4] updated edition of "The Theosophical Movement" by Mr Henry Geiger. Still sold by The Theosophy Company. I've seen the book for sale on ULT tables. [5] Numerous other "negative" articles appearing in the pages of "Theosophy" magazine especially in the time period 1920-1950. Let me make myself clear---above material on Theosophical history is valuable in many respects. At same time there's harsh criticism, vitrolic statements, sarcasm, etc. in much of this writing. And all of it was written annoymously. As far as I can determine, "Theosophy" magazine during years in question never allowed other side to respond in either articles or letters to the editor in their publication ["Theosophy" magazine]. This is in sharp contrast to the editorial methods of Mrs Blavatsky. She allowed her critics equal time to respond in her magazines "The Theosophist" & "Lucifer". Again Mrs Blavatsky didn't attack her opponents under the cloak of annoymity. Mrs. Blavatsky's editorial practices stand out in sharp contrast to those of "Theosophy" magazine. Why? In regards to esoteric groups & material, Mr Crosbie, Mr Garriques, Mr Geiger & other annoymous U.L.T. writers have heaped harsh criticisms & scorn upon esoteric schools, esoteric leaders & esoteric claims of other Theosophical organizations. All of the above sources contain such negative material. These U.L.T. writers also show no hesitation in quoting (sometimes volumiously) from esoteric material written by Mrs Blavatky, Mr W Judge, Mrs K Tingley, etc. In U.L.T.'s harshly worded "expose" on Mrs Tingley, many esoteric douments marked "private and confidential" are quoted with sometimes snide & sarcastic commentaries added. Who gave U.L.T. authors the permission to use in a very public manner material marked "private and confidential"? Yet when I mention in a very general way that U.L.T. has had for decades its own esoteric school, Mr Richard Taylor starts foaming at the mouth. And I haven't *yet* published any of the esoteric material issued by U.L.T.'s esoteric group. Yet where is Mr Taylor's indignation toward Mr Crosbie, Mr Garriques & Mr Geiger for invading the privacy of other esoteric groups & publishing for public view various esoteric documents? No, Mr Taylor saves his "venom" for me. Why? Also on this theos---talk forum, I've read fairly constant stream of postings (usually Mr Dallas Tenbroeck's) "advertising" United Lodge of Theosophists. In his "pitch" Mr Tenbroeck has made number of questionable statements. In one posting Mr Tenbroeck wrote that the Thesophical Societies (Pasadena & Adyar) engage in politics but the U.L.T. doesn't. As far as I can determine, this is a patently false statement. What organization or society or association consisting of human beings doesn't have its own share of "politics"? I've received various accounts & documents showing that United Lodge of Theosophists has had its share of "politics". For example, in the 1930s when Mrs Crosbie, the widow of the founder, & a group left Los Angeles U.L.T. A court battle ensued. Another example. The politics, bickering, & power struggles during the time of Grace Clough. A Mr Victor Endersby (see citation in Dr Bruce Campbell's theosophical history), a U.L.T. associate & writer for "Theosophy" magazine, recounted some of the internal struggles & politics he was involved in within the U.L.T. Los Angeles. Why does Mr Tenbroeck whitewash all of this and maintain that his U.L.T. is different (& better?) than other Theosophical organizations? Mr Tenbroeck may be quite sincere in what he wrote; but such unrealistic & unfounded statements should be questioned by any thinking human being. I'm still working on next email dealing with certain aspects of U.L.T.'s esoteric group. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 12:58:39 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA14526 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:56:03 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Karma--to Dallas Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:53:13 -0800 Message-ID: <001e01be7242$1f8a06e0$970e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BE71FF.1166C6E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <006801be721b$5fb78a20$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BE71FF.1166C6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerry: The IG teachings state it well. But why does it so state? As to the KEY. I would say that we cannot be selective. Also you are right, it is a problem with our interpretation. Dal Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:16 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Karma--to Dallas >>I quote as well as possible the statements regarding the nature of KARMA as derived directly from THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. And I would invite everyone to go there and check them out directly.<< Dallas, your quotes don't help us much, because I use the same source. Perhaps its in the interpretation? Remember that HPB also says that golden chains are as binding as iron, and that all karma must be dissolved (Inner Group Teachings). Jerry S ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BE71FF.1166C6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gerry:
 
The IG=20 teachings state it well.  But why does it so = state?
 
As to=20 the KEY.  I would say that we cannot be selective.  Also you = are=20 right, it is a problem with our interpretation.
 
Dal
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:16 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Karma--to = Dallas

>>I quote as well as possible the statements regarding the=20 nature
of KARMA as derived directly from THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY.  = And=20 I
would invite everyone to go there and check them out=20 directly.<<
 
Dallas, your quotes don't help us much, because I use the same=20 source.
Perhaps its in the interpretation? Remember that HPB also says = that
golden chains are as binding as iron, and that all karma must = be
dissolved (Inner Group Teachings).
 
Jerry S
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BE71FF.1166C6E0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 13:04:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA14512 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:55:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Psychology Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:53:10 -0800 Message-ID: <001901be7242$1d81b3c0$970e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE71FF.0F5E73C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007801be721e$067a0d40$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE71FF.0F5E73C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit March 19th Gerry: I think that Theosophy puts the blame on us, rather than looking for someone or something (an event) which might direct our desire to blame and escape on another. This is what the Church has used to such great advantage. It also abridges thought. Responsibility implies that we actively seek in ourselves the cause of that which needs adjusting and rectifying. The whole process is self originated, self-pursued, and the result are again only apparent in our own make-up. But, the "Personally" hates that. It like to continue being what it wants to be. Dal Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:35 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Psychology >>But I find that Eastern Psychology as expressed by Theosophy covers so much more and fills in the gaps so well that the (to me) sorry western attempts appear a waste of time.<< Well, I guess I just don't see it that way myself. To say that my irrational behavior is my karma just doesn't help me much. Its rather like saying that its God's Will. Modern psychology, excluding transpersonal, looks at only this life, but it does go far to show why we do things and how the human mind (manas) works, which even Theosophy lacks. Psychology, especially Jungian, says that virtually all of our problems can be resolved by conscious awareness. It is the repressed or forgotten things that bite us in the tail. This is not so different, I think, from Eastern psychology. But I don't find an emphasis on being more conscious in Theosophy. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE71FF.0F5E73C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
March=20 19th
 
Gerry:
 
I=20 think that Theosophy puts the blame on us, rather than looking for = someone or=20 something (an event) which might direct our desire to blame and escape = on=20 another.  This is what the Church has used to such great = advantage. =20 It also abridges thought. 
 
Responsibility implies that we actively seek in ourselves the = cause of=20 that which needs adjusting and rectifying.  The whole process is = self=20 originated, self-pursued, and the result are again only apparent in our = own=20 make-up.  But, the "Personally" hates that.  It like = to=20 continue being what it wants to be.
 
Dal
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:35 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Psychology

>>But I find that Eastern Psychology as expressed by=20 Theosophy
covers so much more and fills in the gaps so well that the=20 (to
me) sorry western attempts appear a waste of time.<<
 
Well, I guess I just don't see it that way myself. = To say that=20 my
irrational behavior is my = karma just=20 doesn't help me much. Its
rather like = saying that its God's Will. Modern psychology, = excluding
transpersonal, looks at only this life, but it does = go far to=20 show why
we do things and how the human mind (manas) works,=20 which
even Theosophy lacks. Psychology, especially = Jungian,=20 says
that virtually all of our problems can be = resolved by=20 conscious
awareness. It is the repressed or forgotten things that bite us in=20 the
tail. This is not so different, I think, from Eastern psychology. = But
I don't find an emphasis on being more conscious in = Theosophy.
 
Jerry S.

 
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE71FF.0F5E73C0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 13:07:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA13198 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:46:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World This Life Expresses All Past Lives Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:43:44 -0800 Message-ID: <001401be7240$cca21400$970e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE71FD.BE7ED400" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <008201be721e$fcaaf440$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE71FD.BE7ED400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit March 19th Dear Gerry: Why should I denigrate the personality? It is necessary. It is also made up of billions of MONADS and they presumably aggregate in my environment because we are related. If I neglect or abuse them then indeed personal Karma grows because of carelessness and a disregard of that which is due to them. Similarly , with a Sage, he has a duty to those members of humanity who draw near to him and make up his "company." But this is a never ending process. You try, apparently to limit KARMA to a rather narrow area. Where as the broad definition is that which sees its operation as attraction/repulsion in the areas of the physical, emotional, ethical, mental and spiritual areas -- in fact everywhere. I have never yet found any reason for confining my concept of it. In fact I do not perceive any causes that are reasonable which might do that. The reason I think theosophical psychology is at odds with modern Western Psychology is that it is brad and general, whereas in the West it is focused around the personality and its emotions (and their ramifications) only. It does not take the immortality of the EGO into account, or Spirit as a universal base and cause for existence, nor does it consider the existence of the MONAD as a vital factor. When it makes those steps, then it will succeed in ridding itself of about as many problems as current Christian theology has created for itself. But I would prefer not to be involved as a "believer" in either. Too many insolubles that logic chips holes in Dal Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:42 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World This Life Expresses All Past Lives >Western Psychology starts with the perishable consciousness of one life.<< Dallas, as you know, our body this time around is the cumulative expression of all of our past lives and is, in fact, our crystallized karma at this evolutionary moment. Don't denigrate your body or your mind that you have in this life; it carries the baggage (fruit) of all of your past with it. If you can explain your behavior in this life, then you can explain it over the course of your evolutionary lifetimes. The karma that we each have in this life expresses in miniature our karmic burden built up over the past countless millions of lifetimes. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE71FD.BE7ED400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
March=20 19th
 
Dear=20 Gerry:
 
Why=20 should I denigrate the personality?  It is necessary.  It is = also=20 made  up of billions of MONADS and they presumably aggregate in my=20 environment because we are related.  If I neglect or abuse them = then indeed=20 personal Karma grows because of carelessness and a disregard of that = which is=20 due to them.  Similarly , with a Sage, he has a duty to those = members of=20 humanity who draw near to him and make up his "company."  = But=20 this is a never ending process.
 
You=20 try, apparently to limit KARMA to a rather narrow area.  Where as = the broad=20 definition is that which sees its operation as attraction/repulsion in = the areas=20 of the physical, emotional, ethical, mental and spiritual areas -- in = fact=20 everywhere.
 
I have=20 never yet found any reason for confining my concept of it.  In fact = I do=20 not perceive any causes that are reasonable which might do=20 that.
 
The=20 reason I think theosophical psychology is at odds with modern Western = Psychology=20 is that it is brad and general, whereas in the West it is focused around = the=20 personality and its emotions (and their ramifications) only.  It = does not=20 take the immortality of the EGO into account, or Spirit as a universal = base and=20 cause for existence, nor does it consider the existence of the MONAD as = a vital=20 factor.
 
When=20 it makes those steps, then it will succeed in ridding itself of about as = many=20 problems as current Christian theology has created for itself.  But = I would=20 prefer not to be involved as a "believer" in either.  Too = many=20 insolubles that logic chips holes in
 
 
Dal
 
 
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:42 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World This Life Expresses All Past=20 Lives

>Western Psychology starts with the perishable consciousness = of
one=20 life.<<
 
Dallas, as you know, our body = this time=20 around is the cumulative
expression of=20 all of our past lives and is, in fact, our crystallized
karma at this evolutionary moment. Don't denigrate = your=20 body
or your mind that you have in this life; it carries = the=20 baggage (fruit)
of all of your past with it. If you can explain your = behavior=20 in this
life, then you can explain it over the course = of your=20 evolutionary
lifetimes. The karma that we each have in this life expresses=20 in 
miniature our karmic burden built up over the past countless
millions of lifetimes.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE71FD.BE7ED400-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 13:27:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA17120 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:16:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Are TRY and DARE in Today's TSs? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:13:52 -0800 Message-ID: <002301be7245$0245eec0$970e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE7201.F422AEC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00c001be7225$52628fa0$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE7201.F422AEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerry: In a dozen places in her articles and letters HPB states that psychism is to be eschewed by members of the TS- The reason is plain. The elemental and astral world is full of unknown and undetectable (so far by us) pitfalls. Even if we were to assume that Bulwer-Lytton.s A STRANGE STORY and ZANONI are only partly true, there is enough there to be discouraging to those who are cautious. And what is the person's motive to DARE and to TRY? I don't have to stick my head through the hole at the base of a guillotine to see if the knife will fall or not. If it is knowledge of those invisible planes, then there is plenty of explanation and illustration of the literature of Theosophy, starting with that wonderful encyclopedia: ISIS UNVEILED. But with no chart, or special viewing apparatus, why should I try to see if the "waters" are either frigid or boiling ? Dal Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:27 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Are TRY and DARE in Today's TSs? >> Theosophists seem to ignore >> the TRY and DARE commands of occultism on this one. >This is a sweeping generalization based on assumption. No, its based on reading the materials disseminated by the TSs today. From Judge down through today there is a strong caution (to put it mildly) against even TRYing anything at all that smacks of psychism. There is NO mention of the possibility of liberation in a single lifetime in any TS literature that I am aware of even though it is a central tenent in Tibetan Buddhism and is part of the teachings of Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism. Am I wrong? I hope so, but I don't think so. I view the entire TS milieu today as one of extreme conservativism, which is why I am certain that HPB would never be accepted by the TSs today if her reincarnation were here. The whole concept of TRY and DARE is downplayed and warned against in today's TSs unless you believe that TRY-to-be-moral and DARE-to-be-nice are what these occult terms mean. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE7201.F422AEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gerry:
 
In a=20 dozen places in her articles and letters HPB states that psychism is to = be=20 eschewed by members of the TS-  The reason is plain.  The = elemental=20 and astral world is full of unknown and undetectable (so far by us)=20 pitfalls.  Even if we were to assume that Bulwer-Lytton.s A STRANGE = STORY=20 and ZANONI are only partly true, there is enough there to be = discouraging to=20 those who are cautious.
 
And=20 what is the person's motive to DARE and to TRY?  I don't have to = stick my=20 head through the hole at the base of a guillotine to see if the knife = will fall=20 or not.  If it is knowledge of those invisible planes, then there = is plenty=20 of explanation and illustration of the literature of Theosophy, starting = with=20 that wonderful encyclopedia: ISIS UNVEILED.  But with no chart, or = special=20 viewing apparatus, why should I try to see if the "waters" are = either=20 frigid or boiling ?
 
Dal
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:27 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Are TRY and DARE in Today's=20 TSs?

>> Theosophists seem to ignore
>> the TRY and DARE = commands=20 of occultism on this one.
>This is a sweeping generalization based = on=20 assumption. 
 
No, its based on reading the materials disseminated
by the TSs today. From Judge down through today there
is a strong caution (to put it mildly) against even TRYing
anything at all that smacks of psychism. There is NO
mention of the possibility of liberation in a single lifetime
in any TS literature that = I am aware of=20 even though it is
a central tenent in = Tibetan Buddhism and=20 is part of the
teachings of Buddhism, = Hinduism, and=20 Taoism. Am I
wrong? I hope so, but I = don't think so.=20 I view the entire
TS milieu today as = one of extreme=20 conservativism, which
is why I am certain that HPB would never be accepted
by the TSs today if her reincarnation were here. The
whole concept of TRY and DARE is downplayed and
warned against in today's TSs unless you believe that
TRY-to-be-moral and DARE-to-be-nice are what
these occult terms mean.
 
Jerry = S.
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE7201.F422AEC0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 13:56:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA21028 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:47:39 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990319134642.00d4f83c@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:46:42 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Theos-World Psychology In-Reply-To: <000101be7206$b3eee260$665895c1@et.u-net.com> References: <36F1E531.756C8E7E@eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Here it is from King Henry VI: "let's kill all the lawyers." mkr ============================== At 12:47 PM 3/19/1999 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Doss, > >I'm sure it is worth hearing. What did he say? > >Peter > > >> What did Shakespeare say about legal profession? At his time there was no >> psychology? >> >> mkr >> >> >> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com >> >> Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >> teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >> "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. >> > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 14:01:24 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA21232 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:49:29 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:47:52 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Victims & Criminals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 6:30:43 PM, Jerry wrote: <> This is not only quite succinct, but quite on-target as I understand the larger implications of karma. Labels like "victim" and "criminal" really only relate to one instance in one lifetime. We must assume however, that we go back as karmic entities (I *won't* say "individuals") for many, many lifetimes. So here there was a criminal, who became a victim, who became a criminal. Pretty quickly the labels lose all meaning, and what appears is a stream of activity, which is too mixed together to be labelled "good" or "bad." The important issue is, where is the potential for enlightenment in this great stream? Can the karmic entity transcend itself? That is what I think Jerry is raising, though I hope he will correct me where I've misrepresented him. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 14:11:17 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA23558 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:09:20 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: alpha@dircon.co.uk Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:08:25 GMT Message-Id: <199903192008.UAA14695@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: alpha@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Positivity Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >What were Blavatsky's teachings on brotherhood and love and the advancement of >the soul? > >Peace >Sherry The building idea you mention is a good one. So one block, or hopefully un-block. Her teachings were of *Universal* Brotherhood rather than of brotherhood. Based in Atma-Buddhi, the 2 Universal principles. Thanks for quoting the 3 objects from "The Key to Theosophy." "To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood...." Is to form the nucleus, developing/forming the higher manas, of the Universal Brotherhood of Atma-Buddhi? Mundane (hence they are plural) brotherhoods are often concerned about themselves, and on rare occasions themselves and others. *Universal* Brotherhood by its very Nature is ONE Brotherhood and thus "concerned" with ALL. ONENESS. "The radical unity of the ultimate essence of each constituent part of compounds in Nature - from Star to mineral Atom, from the highest Dhyan Chohan to the smallest infusoria, in the fullest acceptation of the term, and whether applied to the spiritual, intellectual, or physical worlds - this is the one fundamental law in Occult Science." (S.D., vol. I, p. 120) Tony -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 14:41:36 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA27577 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:39:10 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <85465d0f.36f2b4bf@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:34:07 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: RE: Theos-World Nirvana and appropriation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/19/99 9:12:14 AM, Peter wrote: <> Peter, what a terrific quote. Do you remember offhand where you found it? I'd rather save a few hours of search if you happen to have it at hand. Thanks for your kind reply. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 14:53:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA24764 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:18:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199903181942.NAA18660@pippin.imagiware.com> References: Conversation <199903181942.NAA18660@pippin.imagiware.com> with last message <199903181942.NAA18660@pippin.imagiware.com> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mika perala" Subject: Theos-World Sherry!! Date: pe, 19 maalis 99 14:56:51 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > From: Shersy17@aol.com > Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:33:40 EST > Subject: Re: Theos-World Negativity > > In a message dated 3/18/99 1:09:39 PM, mikap@dlc.fi writes: > > << > > > > I`m afraid you`d have to start your own list and allow no other subscri= bers > than you... > > > > Perhaps I would do better elsewhere, and that I will consider, as that = is now > two of you who have suggested I leave. Dear Sherry, if you thought that I seriously meant that you should leave = this list, that was not my intention!! My line above lacked a few smiles with eye-glasses, 8)8) ,and it was mean= t to be some sort of sarcasm. In an unmoderated list there will always(?)= be people in each others throats occasionally. Just delete those message= s which you find unpleasant. Hang on!! Mika perala lurk lurk -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 14:59:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA27165 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:35:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <292dabbf.36f2b4c3@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:34:11 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Psychology Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/19/99 4:07:36 PM, Jerry wrote: <> Jerry, I have discovered that however articulate one may be about defending modern research, one will still be attacked by those who want *nothing* studied, practiced or preached which does not come from Theosophy books. There is some deep-rooted prejudice against *any* field of study which is not mentioned in HPB's writing, and which appears to have anything to offer Theosophy. I think I know why this is: because HPB was allegedly the "great teacher" of our cycle--so the argument goes--she knew everything of value. What she didn't mention, doesn't have value. Thus, readers of Theosophy assure themselves, modern physics, psychology, comparative religion, chemistry, linguistics -- all of these are stupid wastes of time. (Which also has the unforunate side effect of keeping the faithful in ignorance of modern thought, whatever its value or lack thereof.) This reminds me of the attitude of some early Muslims, that all one needed to know was in the Qur'an. As soon as these Muslims were in power, they burned everything else, including the Alexandrian library (which of course had already been burned by the early Christians the first time.) Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 15:10:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA27372 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:37:19 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <22cd977d.36f2b4c9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:34:17 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Self-Defeating? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/19/99 4:25:33 PM, Peter wrote: <<>>Do you therefore believe that HPB and her Teachers had a "self defeating" attitude?<< Jerry responded: > This has yet to be fully appreciated by most Theosophists today. Our teachings represent WHAT COULD BE GIVEN TO VICTORIAN EUROPEANS. The Victorians could barely grasp reincarnation, and were fixated on talking to dear Mother or Sister from beyond the grave. There were *no* Buddhists, Hindus or Taoists in the West. Almost no one last century except the truly insightful Theosophists understood even the BASIC doctrines of Theosophy. We've had a century and more to examine every word, every nuance, and --gasp-- begin comparing Theosophy to other world religions. To them, it was new and very, very foreign and difficult to grasp and believe. Certainly, the Masters had an eye to the future, and the Theosophical teachings have a derivative benefit to later followers. But the immediate cycle They were working with closed in 1897-98. Blavatsky even tells her chelas they would have to "renounce all hope of progress" until 1975 if they didn't achieve a certain level of development -- and of course most did not. It is hard for Theosophists to accept that their teachings are *limited* even though HPB says this herself over and over. What exactly these limitations are is a matter for considerable debate. But quoting Theosophy works as timeless, holy scriptures, which cannot be compared to anything else on the planet, only further isolates Theosophy today as a kind of cult, rather than integrating it into the modern race-mind, as it was intended. After all, Theosophy was a gift to the many and for their benefit, not the special province of the few. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 16:01:23 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA05737 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:57:02 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Psychology == various views and angles Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:54:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000201be725b$6642d940$ab0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <292dabbf.36f2b4c3@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 19th All I would like to add to what Rich has said is that anyone who is a student of Theosophy is also one who stays well abreast of the advances in all departments of Science and development. A look at the current issues of THEOSOPHY Magazine (Los Angeles) or THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (Bombay) will show that there are articles and "paragraphs" which direct attention to significant advances in thought and discovery that scientists and academics make. Broadly, one cannot be a true student of Theosophy without also being keenly aware of the world around him or her, and its progress. It is but natural that these discoveries will be checked with ?Theosophical doctrines in the ever continuing attempt made by every free-willed individual to arrive at TRUTH for him or herself. The only thing that it will be difficult to change are the "fundamental principles" and the main doctrines of Theosophy the immanence of the Universal spirit in Man, rendering him an "immortal;" the operations of universal Karma; the process of reincarnation; the unity of the Great Cause of human Brotherhood; and, the doctrines concerning the Psychology of the soul ] . All the changes in the world of science, thought, and technology will be found on examination to still fall within those parameters mentioned in theosophy. And in the past 125 years I have not noticed anything significant that has either attacked or breached the "fundamentals" as originally presented. In Sylvia Cranston's biography of HPB (latest revised edition is 1998, Tarcher, New York-1991--) a good deal of space has been reserved to show how discoveries and findings since her death in 1891 have served to reinforce Theosophical doctrines and demonstrate their viability and continue usage. Not the reverse. This does not mean that there are no theosophical "ostriches". But to characterize all as self-limiting, is also not quite fair, as the principles that HPB advanced on behalf of the Masters and the Lodge of Adepts (the MAHATMAS) contain, admittedly, the principles which once learned and understood, can be universally applied. The applications are incapable of being enforced, as the process of self-development entails self-regulation and the entire freedom to choose. Each human is entirely free-willed and as such each determines their own procedures and speed of change and direction. It as about as unfair to characterize with a broad brush all students of theosophy, as it is for a Malay to try to characterize an "American." Or, for an Amazonian "Indian" to speak of and characterize the many sects and practices of "Buddhism." All broad statements have to be modified by noting their exceptions, and the thousands of individual differences that represent personal criteria adopted for living, study, recreation, etc... I may have misunderstood what Rich says, and if so I apologize, but felt it might be good to offer a slight modification to it. Best to all, Dallas ================================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Richtay@aol.com Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 12:34 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Psychology In a message dated 3/19/99 4:07:36 PM, Jerry wrote: <> Jerry, I have discovered that however articulate one may be about defending modern research, one will still be attacked by those who want *nothing* studied, practiced or preached which does not come from Theosophy books. There is some deep-rooted prejudice against *any* field of study which is not mentioned in HPB's writing, and which appears to have anything to offer Theosophy. I think I know why this is: because HPB was allegedly the "great teacher" of our cycle--so the argument goes--she knew everything of value. What she didn't mention, doesn't have value. Thus, readers of Theosophy assure themselves, modern physics, psychology, comparative religion, chemistry, linguistics -- all of these are stupid wastes of time. (Which also has the unfortunate side effect of keeping the faithful in ignorance of modern thought, whatever its value or lack thereof.) This reminds me of the attitude of some early Muslims, that all one needed to know was in the Qur'an. As soon as these Muslims were in power, they burned everything else, including the Alexandrian library (which of course had already been burned by the early Christians the first time.) Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 17:29:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA23491 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:25:19 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Shersy17@aol.com Message-ID: <6beb1854.36f2dc83@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:23:47 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Sherry!! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/19/99 3:52:57 PM, mikap@dlc.fi writes: << if you thought that I seriously meant that you should leave this list, that was not my intention!! My line above lacked a few smiles with eye-glasses, 8)8) ,and it was meant to be some sort of sarcasm. In an unmoderated list there will always(?) be people in each others throats occasionally. Just delete those messages which you find unpleasant. >> Oh I forgot about you Mike, that make's three! LOLOL...I do hit delete on certain names I have now become familiar with...doesn't leave much else to read on this list :-). Peace to you Sherry PS I got the tongue-in-cheek in message the first time -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 19 18:14:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA26535 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:00:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: RE: RE: Theos-World Nirvana and appropriation Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:58:42 -0000 Message-ID: <000201be7264$6abcb280$186645c2@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <85465d0f.36f2b4bf@aol.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Rich, It's in The Key to Theosophy, Section 7 (page 103 in the original edition). Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of > Richtay@aol.com > Sent: 19 March 1999 20:34 > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: RE: RE: Theos-World Nirvana and appropriation > > > > In a message dated 3/19/99 9:12:14 AM, Peter wrote: > > < > > > "As this [Atman] can neither be located nor limited in philosophy, being > > simply that which is in Eternity, and which cannot be absent from even the > > tiniest geometrical or mathematical point of the universe of matter or > > substance, it ought not to be called, in truth, a "human" > principle at all. > > Rather, and at best, it is in Metaphysics, that point in space which the > > human Monad and its vehicle man occupy for the period of every life. Now > > that point is as imaginary as man himself, and in reality is an > illusion, a > > maya; but then for ourselves, as for other personal Egos, we are a reality > > during that fit of illusion called life, and we have to take > ourselves into > > account, in our own fancy at any rate, if no one else does.">> > > Peter, what a terrific quote. Do you remember offhand where you found it? > I'd rather save a few hours of search if you happen to have it at hand. > Thanks for your kind reply. > > Rich > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 00:44:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id AAA24240 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:34:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:32:25 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Psychology == various views and angles Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com What Dallas wrote: <> What Rich originally said (copied and pasted): <> The emphasis in what I wrote should be on "those who." This was aimed at no one in particular, but at a very distinct *attitude* prevalent in some circles of Theosophical study. Fortunately, individuals can always change their attitude. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 06:44:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA24543 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:36:35 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <41f7003b.36f395f7@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:35:03 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Are TRY and DARE in Today's TSs? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/19/99 2:26:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, dalval@nwc.net writes: << In a dozen places in her articles and letters HPB states that psychism is to be eschewed by members of the TS- >> <>(i.e. not heed these warnings) I would like to add, that this last point, in many respects, is also composed of a wanton disregard by an unenlightened personality for the care and welfare of other unenlightened personalities. Anyone who has seen the TV infomercials on psychic hotlines, channeling, etc., will know that modern psychism as an industry, has turned into an enormous cash cow. I would suggest that vested interests in this new industry, may be an underlying motive of why one might continue to defend such Theosophically irresponsible positions, as exploration of lower psychism by mostly unprepared seekers or, one life karmic-resolution scenarios. I am always surprised at how the Ancient Wisdom can be contorted and used by the unscrupulous or uncaring on the unwary and uninformed. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 06:59:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA25829 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:58:54 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <819e06e6.36f39b26@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:57:10 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Nirvana and appropriation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/19/99 3:41:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Richtay@aol.com writes about peters quote by HPB: << "As this [Atman] can neither be located nor limited in philosophy, being simply that which is in Eternity, and which cannot be absent from even the tiniest geometrical or mathematical point of the universe of matter or substance, it ought not to be called, in truth, a "human" principle at all. >> <> I agree with you Rich. This quote is powerful indeed. It can be extremely illuminating and liberating when we humans, begin to conceive of, and explore our NON-HUMAN identities. Louis. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 07:44:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA27864 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:30:05 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <6bed8393.36f3a280@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:28:32 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Who was HPB reffering to? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In Blavatsky-net, the HPB quote of the day was: <> Now that we have come to the end of it, who do we "century twenty" theosophists, think this disciple was or is. Or, is the emphasis still on "MAY COME." Louis ______________________ -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 10:14:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA08965 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:13:24 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990320161203.1409.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World [1] Dzyan Esoteric School, the U.L.T.'s Esoteric Group Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:12:02 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com The Dzyan Esoteric School is the official name of the esoteric section or school of the United Lodge of Theosophists. According to an esoteric paper of the D.E.S.--- "The active Agent of the School is known as the 'Secretary, D.E.S.' All communications should be addressed to that agent, and all communications, instructions and directions, to applicants and members will be issued by that office and over the signature 'Secretary, D.E.S.'. . ." "Every application for entrance into this School must be sent to the Secretary, D.E.S." The office of the "Secretary, D.E.S." was first located in the Headquarters of the United Lodge of Theosophists at 504 Metropolitan Building, Los Angeles, California. This address was at the intersection of Broadway at Fifth Steet. Later when the U.L.T. Headquarters was moved to a new location & building at 245 West 33rd Street, the D.E.S. office was also transferred to new location. This West 33rd Street address is still the headquarters of the U.L.T. Los Angeles. Members of the D.E.S. corresponded with the Secretary & received their esoteric instructions and documents through the U.S. Mail. At the West 33rd Street Headquarters of the U.L.T., an "Esoteric Room" was reserved exclusively for meetings of D.E.S. members. This room housed the two portraits of Masters Morya & Koot Hoomi. This was the situation as of the late sixties & early seventies. Whether this setup is still in existence is uncertain. One of my U.L.T. informants promises to obtain more information about the setup & possibly a photograph of the D.E.S. office. Where did the name "Dzyan Esoteric" School or Section originate? In "Theosophy" magazine, February 1915, p. 188, Mr Robert Crosbie declared----- "...The actual name of the School of the Masters [is not] used by any of the so-called esoteric sections of the now numerous Theosophical Society." One might infer from this statement that Mr Crosbie believed he *knew* the actual name of the School. Mr Crosbie & his U.L.T. colleagues derived the name of the D.E.S. from at least two sources. One source was a "Charter of The Dzyan Esoteric Section of the Theosophical Society" issued to the Boston Esoteric Lodge when Crosbie lived in Boston. This was during the life of William Q Judge. All local esoteric groups of the E.S.T. were issued *similar* charters during both Mrs Blavatsky's and Mr Judge's lifetimes. A facsimile of one such charter can be seen in Blavatsky's "The Original Programme of the Theosophical Society," published by The Theosophical Publishing House---Adyar, Madras, India. Edited by Mr C. Jinarajadasa. More in Part [2]. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 13:29:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA27715 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:23:50 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <006b01be7305$0f997ae0$297d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Resonse to Dallas Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:33:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01BE72D6.3AB598A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BE72D6.3AB598A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>I think that Theosophy puts the blame on us, rather than looking for = someone or something (an event) which might direct our desire to blame and = escape on another. This is what the Church has used to such great advantage. It = also abridges thought.<< Agreed. >>Responsibility implies that we actively seek in ourselves the cause of = that which needs adjusting and rectifying. The whole process is self = originated, self-pursued, and the result are again only apparent in our own make-up. But, the "Personally" hates that. It like to continue being what it = wants to be. Dal<< Agreed and well said. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BE72D6.3AB598A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>I think that Theosophy puts the blame on us, rather than = looking=20 for someone
or something (an event) which might direct our desire to = blame=20 and escape on
another.  This is what the Church has used to such = great=20 advantage.  It also
abridges thought.<<
 
Agreed.

>>Responsibility implies that we actively seek = in=20 ourselves the cause of that
which needs adjusting and = rectifying.  The=20 whole process is self originated,
self-pursued, and the result are = again only=20 apparent in our own make-up.
But, the "Personally" hates=20 that.  It like to continue being what it wants
to=20 be.
Dal<<
 
Agreed and well said.
 
Jerry S.

 
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BE72D6.3AB598A0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 13:33:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA27730 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:23:54 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <006a01be7305$0ed19700$297d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World TS Organizations Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:28:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01BE72D5.816912A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BE72D5.816912A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are=20 generally very skeptical & even sometimes disdainful of the claims of=20 Mrs Tingley, Mrs Besant, Mr Hargrove, Mr Leadbeater, Mrs Bailey &c, but=20 apparently accept without question Mr Crosbie's claims. << Why? Doesn't it seem natural that this would be the case, else why would Crosbie have felt the need to establish a=20 separate organization? Each TS was established out of a deep-seated skeptism of its parent organization. Why is this ironic? Each and every TS currently believes that it and it alone it best serving the "original" program. This is perfectly natural, else they would all re-combine back=20 into a single organization. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BE72D5.816912A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are =
generally=20 very skeptical & even sometimes disdainful of the claims of
Mrs = Tingley,=20 Mrs Besant, Mr Hargrove, Mr Leadbeater, Mrs Bailey &c, but =
apparently=20 accept without question Mr Crosbie's claims.  <<
 
Why? Doesn't it seem natural that this would be the case,
else why would Crosbie have felt the need to establish a
separate organization? Each TS was established out of a
deep-seated skeptism of its parent organization. Why
is this ironic? Each and every TS currently believes that
it and it alone it best serving the "original" program.=20 This
is perfectly natural, else they would all re-combine back
into a single organization.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BE72D5.816912A0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 13:36:12 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA27721 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:23:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <006c01be7305$105b4440$297d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World Good News! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:43:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0054_01BE72D7.AC947C60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BE72D7.AC947C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>[Dallas]I have never yet found any reason for confining=20 >>my concept of it. In fact I do not perceive any causes=20 >>that are reasonable which might do that. Actually, the only problem that I have about your definition of karma and your statements about it is that your view=20 makes it sound endless and therefore pointless as well as=20 hopeless. Buddha, if not HPB, taught that karma could=20 be ended. In the same way that God's love and forgiveness=20 is the Good News of the Christians, so liberation is the Good News of Buddhism. What is the Good News of Theosophy if it teaches an endless and mindless series of lifetimes? When we are dreaming, the Good News is that it is just a dream because knowing that can allow us to control what happens. Knowing that life itself is maya allow us to control our karma, in much the same way. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BE72D7.AC947C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>[Dallas]I have never yet found any reason for confining =
>>my concept of it.  In fact I do not perceive any = causes
>>that are reasonable which might do that.
 
Actually, the only problem that I have about your definition
of karma and your statements about it is that your view
makes it sound endless and therefore pointless as well as
hopeless. Buddha, if not HPB, taught that karma could
be ended. In the same way that God's love and forgiveness
is the Good News of the Christians, so liberation is the
Good News of Buddhism. What is the Good News of
Theosophy if it teaches an endless and mindless series
of lifetimes? When we are dreaming, the Good News is
that it is just a dream because knowing that can allow us
to control what happens. Knowing that life itself is maya
allow us to control our karma, in much the same way.
 
Jerry S.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BE72D7.AC947C60-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 13:38:48 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA27731 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:23:54 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <006d01be7305$11232820$297d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> From: "Jerry Schueler" To: "Theos World" Subject: Theos-World TRY and DARE Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:55:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0061_01BE72D9.56E572E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BE72D9.56E572E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>In a dozen places in her articles and letters HPB states that psychism = is to be eschewed by members of the TS- The reason is plain. The elemental = and astral world is full of unknown and undetectable (so far by us) = pitfalls. Even if we were to assume that Bulwer-Lytton.s A STRANGE STORY and = ZANONI are only partly true, there is enough there to be discouraging to those = who are cautious.<< Please look over what you say above. Is this not exactly what I said? You are saying here that it is too dangerous to TRY and DARE. If you really think that, then don't. I have TRYd and I have DAREd and I also kept SILENT about it until finally I reached a time in my life when I felt it more important to speak=20 out. Thus my books on Magic. I do not say that Theosophists should TRY and DARE such things, but rather am pointing out a rather significant difference between the TSs and magical/occult groups. >>And what is the person's motive to DARE and to TRY? I don't have to = stick my head through the hole at the base of a guillotine to see if the knife will fall or not. If it is knowledge of those invisible planes, then = there is plenty of explanation and illustration of the literature of = Theosophy, starting with that wonderful encyclopedia: ISIS UNVEILED. But with no chart, or special viewing apparatus, why should I try to see if the = "waters" are either frigid or boiling ?>> With your attitude, you will remain an observer. This is OK. =20 And reading and study are just fine up to a point. But someday=20 the "waters" will have to be tried and the planes will have to be dared. No hurry. I do think, though, that your posting here exactly confirms what I said about TS conservatism, wherein Peter accused me of making false assumptions. Not so false, I think. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BE72D9.56E572E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>In a dozen places in her articles and letters HPB states = that=20 psychism is to
be eschewed by members of the TS-  The reason is=20 plain.  The elemental and
astral world is full of unknown and=20 undetectable (so far by us) pitfalls.
Even if we were to assume that=20 Bulwer-Lytton.s A STRANGE STORY and ZANONI
are only partly true, = there is=20 enough there to be discouraging to those who
are = cautious.<<
 
Please look over what you say above. Is this not exactly what
I said?  You are saying here that it is too dangerous to = TRY
and DARE. If you really think that, then don't. I have TRYd = and
I have DAREd and I also kept SILENT about it until finally I
reached a time in my life when I felt it more important to speak =
out. Thus my books on Magic. I do not say that Theosophists
should TRY and DARE such things, but rather am pointing
out a rather significant difference between the TSs and
magical/occult groups.
 

>>And what is the person's motive to DARE and to = TRY?  I=20 don't have to stick
my head through the hole at the base of a = guillotine to=20 see if the knife
will fall or not.  If it is knowledge of those=20 invisible planes, then there
is plenty of explanation and = illustration of the=20 literature of Theosophy,
starting with that wonderful encyclopedia: = ISIS=20 UNVEILED.  But with no
chart, or special viewing apparatus, why = should I=20 try to see if the "waters"
are either frigid or boiling=20 ?>>
 
With your attitude, you will remain an observer. This is OK.  =
And reading and study are just fine up to a point. But someday =
the "waters" will have to be tried and the planes will = have
to be dared. No hurry. I do think, though, that your posting = here
exactly confirms what I said = about TS=20 conservatism, wherein
Peter=20 accused me of making false assumptions. Not so false,
I think.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BE72D9.56E572E0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 13:44:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA28358 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:32:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Who was HPB reffering to? Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:29:08 -0800 Message-ID: <000101be7310$4e226320$3c0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6bed8393.36f3a280@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 20th Dear Friend Louis, etc.: Dallas says: Hopefully this will never be announced. It is something that will be sensed by those who have made themselves "ready." Those who are curious will search and probe, and as was done in the very early days after HPB's death, the speculators may take advantage of any prominence, or they may try to create one. Personally, I think it is a part of the "testing" process, whereby the motives of students are revealed TO THEMSELVES. Theosophy, esotericism, occultism are all common-sense matters. But seeking to grasp them fully with the hints and information given, encourages the growth of our minds and their innate powers. If we live to be of service to others we will soon find those who are doing this without any hope of personal benefit, or reward, or recognition. But we will also have to place ourselves in their company. It is like those who tried to contact the Masters - even using psychic means and "channeling" or "trance mediums." They missed the point because their motives were limited, selfish, curious, and we can see evidences of this continued condition all around us. Best wishes Dallas ========================================= -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Teos9@aol.com Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 5:29 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Who was HPB referring to? In Blavatsky-net, the HPB quote of the day was: <> Now that we have come to the end of it, who do we "century twenty" theosophists, think this disciple was or is. Or, is the emphasis still on "MAY COME." Louis ______________________ -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 14:14:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA31707 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:13:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Good News! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:10:36 -0800 Message-ID: <001001be7316$194e7700$3c0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE72D3.0B2B3700" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <006c01be7305$105b4440$297d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE72D3.0B2B3700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mar 20th Dear Gerry: >From a "one-life" point of view, or from the view point of the anxiety of our present personality TO DO SOMETHING -- you are correct in making it seem "pointless." But in terms of eternity and immortality it could not possibly be so That is my opinion Dal ============= Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:44 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Good News! >>[Dallas]I have never yet found any reason for confining >>my concept of it. In fact I do not perceive any causes >>that are reasonable which might do that. Actually, the only problem that I have about your definition of karma and your statements about it is that your view makes it sound endless and therefore pointless as well as hopeless. Buddha, if not HPB, taught that karma could be ended. In the same way that God's love and forgiveness is the Good News of the Christians, so liberation is the Good News of Buddhism. What is the Good News of Theosophy if it teaches an endless and mindless series of lifetimes? When we are dreaming, the Good News is that it is just a dream because knowing that can allow us to control what happens. Knowing that life itself is maya allow us to control our karma, in much the same way. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE72D3.0B2B3700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar=20 20th
 
Dear=20 Gerry:
 
From a=20 "one-life" point of view, or from the view point of the = anxiety of our=20 present personality TO DO SOMETHING -- you are correct in making it seem = "pointless."
 
But in=20 terms of eternity and immortality it could not possibly be=20 so
 
That=20 is my opinion
 
Dal
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:44 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World Good News!

>>[Dallas]I have never yet found any reason for confining =
>>my concept of it.  In fact I do not perceive any = causes
>>that are reasonable which might do that.
 
Actually, the only problem that I have about your definition
of karma and your statements about it is that your view
makes it sound endless and therefore pointless as well as
hopeless. Buddha, if not HPB, taught that karma could
be ended. In the same way that God's love and forgiveness
is the Good News of the Christians, so liberation is the
Good News of Buddhism. What is the Good News of
Theosophy if it teaches an endless and mindless series
of lifetimes? When we are dreaming, the Good News is
that it is just a dream because knowing that can allow us
to control what happens. Knowing that life itself is maya
allow us to control our karma, in much the same way.
 
Jerry S.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE72D3.0B2B3700-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 14:19:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA31692 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:13:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World TRY and DARE Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:10:31 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01be7316$166bf080$3c0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE72D3.0848B080" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <006d01be7305$11232820$297d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE72D3.0848B080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mar 20th Gerry: You are quite right. I do not DARE. I am by nature not RASH. But as you conclude correctly I study, and accumulate information. It is intellectual I know. But I have always been able to bide my time and recommend the same procedure to others who are interested, or curious. Therefore my several cautions. Dal ========================== Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:56 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World TRY and DARE >>In a dozen places in her articles and letters HPB states that psychism is to be eschewed by members of the TS- The reason is plain. The elemental and astral world is full of unknown and undetectable (so far by us) pitfalls. Even if we were to assume that Bulwer-Lytton.s A STRANGE STORY and ZANONI are only partly true, there is enough there to be discouraging to those who are cautious.<< Please look over what you say above. Is this not exactly what I said? You are saying here that it is too dangerous to TRY and DARE. If you really think that, then don't. I have Try and I have Dared and I also kept SILENT about it until finally I reached a time in my life when I felt it more important to speak out. Thus my books on Magic. I do not say that Theosophists should TRY and DARE such things, but rather am pointing out a rather significant difference between the TSs and magical/occult groups. >>And what is the person's motive to DARE and to TRY? I don't have to stick my head through the hole at the base of a guillotine to see if the knife will fall or not. If it is knowledge of those invisible planes, then there is plenty of explanation and illustration of the literature of Theosophy, starting with that wonderful encyclopedia: ISIS UNVEILED. But with no chart, or special viewing apparatus, why should I try to see if the "waters" are either frigid or boiling ?>> With your attitude, you will remain an observer. This is OK. And reading and study are just fine up to a point. But someday the "waters" will have to be tried and the planes will have to be dared. No hurry. I do think, though, that your posting here exactly confirms what I said about TS conservatism, wherein Peter accused me of making false assumptions. Not so false, I think. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE72D3.0848B080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar=20 20th
 
Gerry:
 
You=20 are quite right.  I do not DARE.  I am by nature not = RASH. =20
 
But as=20 you conclude correctly I study, and accumulate information.  It is=20 intellectual I know.  But I have always been able to bide my time = and=20 recommend the same procedure to others who are interested, or=20 curious.
 
Therefore my several cautions.
 
Dal
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:56 AM
To: = Theos=20 World
Subject: Theos-World TRY and DARE

>>In a dozen places in her articles and letters HPB states = that=20 psychism is to
be eschewed by members of the TS-  The reason is=20 plain.  The elemental and
astral world is full of unknown and=20 undetectable (so far by us) pitfalls.
Even if we were to assume that=20 Bulwer-Lytton.s A STRANGE STORY and ZANONI
are only partly true, = there is=20 enough there to be discouraging to those who
are = cautious.<<
 
Please look over what you say above. Is this not exactly what
I said?  You are saying here that it is too dangerous to = TRY
and DARE. If you really think that, then don't. I have Try = and
I have Dared and I also kept SILENT about it until finally I
reached a time in my life when I felt it more important to speak =
out. Thus my books on Magic. I do not say that Theosophists
should TRY and DARE such things, but rather am pointing
out a rather significant difference between the TSs and
magical/occult groups.
 

>>And what is the person's motive to DARE and to = TRY?  I=20 don't have to stick
my head through the hole at the base of a = guillotine to=20 see if the knife
will fall or not.  If it is knowledge of those=20 invisible planes, then there
is plenty of explanation and = illustration of the=20 literature of Theosophy,
starting with that wonderful encyclopedia: = ISIS=20 UNVEILED.  But with no
chart, or special viewing apparatus, why = should I=20 try to see if the "waters"
are either frigid or boiling=20 ?>>
 
With your attitude, you will remain an observer. This is OK.  =
And reading and study are just fine up to a point. But someday =
the "waters" will have to be tried and the planes will = have
to be dared. No hurry. I do think, though, that your posting = here
exactly confirms what I said = about TS=20 conservatism, wherein
Peter=20 accused me of making false assumptions. Not so false,
I think.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE72D3.0848B080-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 17:29:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA15410 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:21:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: alpha@dircon.co.uk Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:20:49 GMT Message-Id: <199903202320.XAA24397@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: alpha@popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Self-Defeating? Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Richard writes: Blavatsky even tells her >chelas they would have to "renounce all hope of progress" until 1975 if they >didn't achieve a certain level of development -- and of course most did not. Please could you supply the reference to where HPB says this, as you have it in quotes. Would like to turn to it. Thanks Tony -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 20:29:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA28452 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:25:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World == What is MAYA ? -- Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:21:24 -0800 Message-ID: <002001be7349$e72326c0$3c0e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE7306.D7EA3100" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <006c01be7305$105b4440$297d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE7306.D7EA3100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mar 20th 1999 Dear Gerry: Years ago I found that Damodar K. Mavlankar, one of HPB' earliest and most devoted students in India wrote something very interesting on the understanding of MAYA. I reproduce it below: "There is only one eternal infinite existence, call it either spirit or matter. I will, however, call it by the latter name, as that is most suited in its common understanding for what I am to state. Matter, as you know, we call Maya. Some say that this thing does not really exist; but I do not agree to that. In my opinion it is called Maya simply on account of these transformations. It is never steady. The process is ever working. The one infinite agglomeration of matter is in some of its modes becoming grosser,while in others becoming more sublimated. The circle is ever turning its round. Nothing goes out of that circle. Everything is kept within its bounds by the action of the centripetal and centrifugal forces. The forms are changing, but the inner substance remains the same. The action of the centripetal force keeps us to our gross forms, and if we have to etherealize ourselves, we must supply the centrifugal force, which is our will. And this is the first principle in Occultism. We must study and know the forces of nature. Every result must be in proportion to the cause producing it. We are every minute emitting and attracting atoms of matter. Now a person who is not an occultist will have various desires, and unconsciously to himself he will produce a cause which will attract to him such atoms of matter as are not suited for his higher progress. The same way, when he is emitting others, he may give them such a tendency that they will mix with others evilly inclined; and thus other individualities, which are thus formed, will have to suffer for no fault of theirs. But an occultist directs both. He is the master of the situation. He guides them, and by knowing their action he produces such conditions as are favorable to his obtain "Nirvana." But what is Nirvana? By Nirvana I mean a state, and not a locality. It is that condition in which we are so etherealized that instead of being merely a mode of the Infinite Existence, as at present, we are merged in totality, or, we become the whole. Another thing about the advanced Occultist is that he is in a better position to benefit humanity. The particles of which I am formed have always existed; yet I donot know in what form they existed before. Probably they have passed through billions of transformations, [ That all the particles of the matter of our universe have passed through millions of transformations, and been in every sort of form, is an old assertion of the Adepts.] Why do I not known these? Because I [as the indestructible individuality] did not supply the force that would have prevented the disintegration of my [personality in this birth]. I will, if I attain Nirvana, remain there till the action of the force that put me there ceases; the effort being always in proportion to the cause. The law of Exhaustion must assert itself. In passing through this process of etherealization, you all along give a certain tendency to the particles of which you are composed. This tendency will always assert itself; and thus in every cycle, or reincarnation, you will have the same advantages, which you can always utilize to soon be free. And, by remaining longer in the Nirvana state that the generality of humanity, you are comparatively free. [The comparison made is with the general run of men in all races. They are not free at any time.] So every consciousness, which has been once fully developed, must disintegrate, if not prevented by the purity of its successive egos till the Nirvana state is attained. Now I believe that the full development of my consciousness as [a "Krishna" -- Atma-Buddhi-Manas] is possibly only on this earth, and therefore if I die before that is done, I must be reborn here. If I reach Nirvana state, even though I am in another body, I shall know myself as {a "Krishna"--the universal Higher SELF.}." >From a Letter written by D. K. Kavlankar and printed by Wm. Q. Judge in PATH Magazine, New York, in January 1896. Offered by Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Schueler Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:44 AM Subject: Theos-World Good News! ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE7306.D7EA3100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mar=20 20th 1999
 
Dear=20 Gerry:
 
Years=20 ago I found that Damodar K. Mavlankar, one of HPB' = earliest and=20 most devoted students in India wrote something very interesting on the=20 understanding of MAYA. I reproduce it below:
 
 
"There is only one eternal infinite existence, = call it=20 either spirit or matter.  I will, however, call it by the latter = name, as=20 that is most suited in its common understanding for what I am to=20 state.
 
Matter, as you know, we call Maya.  Some say that = this=20 thing does not really exist;  but I do not agree to that.  In = my=20 opinion it is called Maya simply on account of these=20 transformations.  It is never steady.  The process is = ever=20 working.  The one infinite agglomeration of matter is in some of = its modes=20 becoming grosser,while in others becoming more sublimated.  The = circle is=20 ever turning its round.  Nothing goes out of that circle.  = Everything=20 is kept within its bounds by the action of the centripetal and = centrifugal=20 forces.  The forms are changing, but the inner = substance=20 remains the same.
 
The=20 action of the centripetal force keeps us to our gross forms, and if we = have to=20 etherealize ourselves, we must supply the centrifugal force, which is = our=20 will.  And this is the first principle in Occultism.  = We must=20 study and know the forces of nature.  Every result must be in = proportion to=20 the cause producing it.  We are every minute emitting and = attracting atoms=20 of matter.
 
Now a=20 person who is not an occultist will have various desires, and = unconsciously to=20 himself he will produce a cause which will attract to him such atoms of = matter=20 as are not suited for his higher progress.  The same way, when he = is=20 emitting others, he may give them such a tendency that they will mix = with others=20 evilly inclined;  and thus other individualities, which are thus = formed,=20 will have to suffer for no fault of theirs.  But an occultist = directs=20 both.  He is the master of the situation.  He guides them, and = by=20 knowing their action he produces such conditions as are favorable to his = obtain=20 "Nirvana."
 
But=20 what is Nirvana?  By Nirvana I mean a state, and = not a=20 locality.  It is that condition in which we are so etherealized = that=20 instead of being merely a mode of the Infinite Existence, as at present, = we are=20 merged in totality, or,  we become the = whole.
 
Another thing about the advanced Occultist is that he is in a = better=20 position to benefit humanity.
 
The=20 particles of which I am formed have always existed;  yet I donot = know in=20 what form they existed before.  Probably they have passed through = billions=20 of transformations, [ That all the particles of the matter of our = universe have=20 passed through millions of transformations, and been in every sort of = form, is=20 an old assertion of the Adepts.]  Why do I not known these?  = Because I=20 [as the indestructible individuality] did not supply the force that = would have=20 prevented the disintegration of my  [personality in this=20 birth].
 
I=20 will, if I attain Nirvana, remain there till the action of the force = that put me=20 there ceases;  the effort being always in proportion to the = cause. =20 The law of Exhaustion must assert itself.
 
In=20 passing through this process of etherealization, you all along give a = certain=20 tendency to the particles of which you are composed.  This tendency = will=20 always assert itself;  and thus in every cycle, or reincarnation, = you will=20 have the same advantages, which you can always utilize to soon be = free. =20 And, by remaining longer in the Nirvana state that the generality of = humanity,=20 you are comparatively free.  [The comparison made is with the = general run=20 of men in all races.  They are not free at any time.]  So = every=20 consciousness, which has been once fully developed, must disintegrate, = if not=20 prevented by the purity of its successive egos till the Nirvana state is = attained.  Now I believe that the full development of my = consciousness as=20 [a "Krishna" -- Atma-Buddhi-Manas] is possibly only on = this=20 earth, and therefore if I die before that is done, I must be reborn = here. =20 If I reach Nirvana state, even though I am in another body, I shall know = myself=20 as {a "Krishna"--the universal Higher=20 SELF.}."
 
From a=20 Letter written by D. K. Kavlankar and printed by Wm. Q. Judge in PATH = Magazine,=20 New York, in January 1896.
 
Offered by Dallas
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry = Schueler
Sent:=20 Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:44 AM
Subject: Theos-World Good=20 News!

 
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE7306.D7EA3100-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 20 20:59:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id UAA30280 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:49:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <24499372.36f45def@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:48:15 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World 1975 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/20/99 11:29:22 PM, Tony wrote: <> Tony, HPB's statements are in her "Preliminary Memorandum" addressed to new esoteric students. The document can be found in Blavatsky's COLLECTED WRITINGS vol. 12. For conservative Theosophists who question the propriety of such public reference, I call their attention to the letter of William Q. Judge (1895) who released from secrecy all but a handful of E.S. teachings. The quote you are looking for Tony is the following: "Let every member know, moreover, that the time for such priceless acquisition is limited; the writer of the present is old, her life is well-nigh worn out, and she may be summoned "home" any day and almost any hour. And if her place is even filled up, perchance by another worthier and more learned than herself, still THERE REMAIN BUT A FEW YEARS to the last hour of the term--namely, till December the 31st, 1899. Those who will not have profited by the opportunity (given to the world in every last quarter of a century), those who will not have reached a certain point of psychic and spiritual development, or that point from which begins the cycle of Adeptship by that day -- those will advance no further than the knowledge already acquired. No Master of Wisdom form the East will himself appear or send anyone to Europe or America after than period, and the sluggards will have to renounce every chance of advancement in their present incarnation--until the year 1975. Such is the law, for we are in KALI YUGA-- the Black Age-- and the restrictions in this cycle, the first 5000 years of which will expire in 1897, are great and almost insuperable." -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 01:59:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id BAA17767 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:52:12 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <4455ae1.36f4a4d4@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 02:50:44 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Ethics & Karma Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 6:45:29 PM, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: >Even though karma can be considered a universal law >in the sense that it applies throughout our universe, it >does not account for all actions--acausal events do >occur, call them chaos or God's Will or whatever. I like >to think of these as part of our collective karma, which >is causal in a collective but not a personal sense. Would you please describe to us an "acausal" event that violates the laws of karma (cycles and periodicity, action->reaction, cause->effect, etc.). Are you saying that a personal action can be non causal? Are you also saying that 'God' (if there can be such a one outside of our manifest universe) is capable of performing "willed" actions that can have no effect and therefore be acausal? What kind of God is that? I thought that the teachings of HPB as transmitted directly from the Masters, as well as all Buddhist teachings, clearly denied all such possibilities. Even the omniverse or Cosmos, in it's first manifestation, has a causal entity described as "the eternal parent wrapped in her ever invisible robes, etc." Science has even shown that chaos itself is only apparent, and cannot exists without an underlying fundamental order. Just because, with our limited faculties, we cannot describe the order within apparent chaos doesn't mean it isn't there. As WQJ said, "karma is immutable." In a so called chaotic system, the tiniest action, even though unmeasurable, can effect the order and extent of the resultant effects. Just because we cannot measure such a tiny cause (as we cannot measure the thought waves that trigger a physical action) doesn't mean that there is such a thing as an "acausal action." Psychological presumptions are no substitutes for scientific reasoning. It should also be pointed out that personal opinions do not constitute a basis for truth and have no place in any theosophical discussion--which should be devoted to explaining the consistent scientific laws of nature behind all the Master's teachings, rather than trying to invent some new rationale that better serves our individual wants and our rationalizations for our personal actions and opinions. LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 02:44:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id CAA19233 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 02:35:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <23eaceba.36f4af22@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 03:34:42 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Karma Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 6:25:52 PM, schuelergerald@optec-hq.optec.army.mil writes: >>>I have to bring myself up to date on the discussions, I can see >that..so..are we saying here karma is strictly related to >reincarnation..or karma is the law of action.. for every action there is >an equal and opposite reaction? >Thanks >Sherry>> > >Action and reaction is a law of Mr. Newton and applies >only to physical objects. I equate karma with causation, >which applies to all planes. Right (in part). Therefore, action, as "cause" on any plane, is always followed by an equal and opposite reaction, as "effect." This is obvious, since action or karma in any field of energy--which includes all planes from spirit, through mind, to matter--is governed by the laws of cycles. Since cyclic vibration is the fundamental nature of all energy fields, any harmonious positive energy wave disturbed by an action of intent, that by necessity is "causative," must lead to a counterwave (or "effect") of equal and opposite (negative) energy. Thus, karma, or action and reaction, must function on all planes with equal consistency... Leading to the conclusion that every cause has its corresponding effect no matter what plane of action it originates on. We can further conclude, then, that a mental thought wave is subject to the same karma (cause->effect, action->reaction) as an "action" wave on the physical plane. In the same light, reincarnation must also be governed by the same laws of karma as any other causative action-reaction on any plane (that, by necessity, must also reflect itself as corresponding forces throughout all interpenetrating, "coadunate but not consubstantial" fields from spirit to matter). Such reflections of our personal actions originated on any plane or field constitute the "skandas" that govern the attractive and repulsive forces leading to our individualized reincarnation based on the accumulated effects of all our past karma. Incidentally, karma cannot be resolved or fulfilled during any lifetime unless the circumstances are currently appropriate. WQJ's *Aphorisms on Karma* thoroughly covers these matters. As pointed out by HPB with respect to the second fundamental, the universe is governed by the same scientifically consistent laws of cycles and periodicity on all its evolutionary levels or phases--with no exception. Because we observe them from our illusory plane of material forces--"through a mirror darkly," so to speak, and do not understand the intricacies of their multi dimensional interfaces and coenergetic linkages--they only appear to be different. Unfortunately, physical science has not yet reached this level of understanding... Mainly, because they cannot imagine those things they have no instruments to measure. And, how does one measure the frequency of the astral light? Theosophists (and even scientists:-) may find it of interest to study and visualize these coenergetic field interrelationships and conjunctions by meditating on the symbolic cross-sectional "chakrafield" diagram posted at: http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html Hopefully, It should give us all a deeper understanding of the ubiquitousness of karma and its interrelationships through all planes of action->reaction. Best wishes, LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 02:59:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id CAA19836 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 02:56:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <2ae662f2.36f4b3e9@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 03:55:05 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World More on Karma and forgiveness Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>>The notion that we can disolve our Karma along with the 'defilements' >seems, to me, to be a variation on the Christian theme where we can live >an immoral life, doing great harm to others, providing we have >forgiveness at the end.>> > >Well, I agree that the Moll Flanders or Darth Vader approach >doesn't work. Probably the best example I can think of here >is Milarepa, the great Tibetan saint and yogi who eliminated >his personal karma in a single lifetime. His life was not an >easy one. He toiled, studied, etc for long years until at least >he was enlightened. It is not a life that many of us would care >to go through, but it does demonstrate the possibility. Milarepa might have been able to achieve enlightenment by hard study and toil in one lifetime--(applying "self devised and self determined efforts" as we say in theosophy)--during which he previously created great evil... However, this didn't relieve him of his karma.... Since, by becoming enlightened and taking the oath of repentance and compassion--in essence the "Bodhisattva Vow"--he assigned himself to endless lifetimes of toil and trouble in helping achieve enlightenment and keeping from harm those who are (possibly even until today) the reincarnations of all the beings he originally wronged. (I'm sure Milarepa is still around doing his thing. In fact, I may even have once bumped into him cleaning out the toilets after a ULT Lodge meeting.:-) Therefore, forgiveness is only valid for the one harmed, since forgiving the person who harmed one is a sign of enlightenment and serves as a compassionate means to help rid the former evil one of his karmic burden. To forgive oneself becomes valid only when one truly repents in the heart and takes and lives out a compensatory vow to return good for bad to all beings in the future. This is the only true means to transcend ones karma. But, there is no escape from it, since the laws of cycles govern all causes and effects, and the only way to stop a wave of bad karma is to set up an equal and opposite wave of good karma... (Just as we can now eliminate loud and harmful noises by recreating and reflecting their sound waves in the opposite direction.) And, this takes much toil and effort, sometimes long after the forgiveness has been acknowledged within oneself. That, incidentally, is the true meaning of the "Confession" in Christianity and the yearly "Yom Kippur" repentance and forgiveness in Judaism. To "forgive oneself" is actually meaningless unless true repentance and full restitution has been avowed in the heart. Such is the Bodhisattva Vow. Anything else is no better than the "vicarious atonement" of fundamentalist Christianity. I pity the Pratyeka Buddha with many lifetimes of evil behind him who comes out of Nirvana after Pralaya and has to face the Tsunamic wave of all his bad karma and be constantly drowned in it during the entire next Manvantara. If such compensation is simply a matter of Universal cyclic law, then one can hardly imagine the nature and extent of the suffering that might entail as he starts again on the path of experience from ground zero. This is something to say about "karmic responsibility." What a great release of ones own karma it would be to enlighten such a one to recognize the true meaning and value of the Bodhisattva Vow. Best wishes for good karma, LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 03:14:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id DAA20418 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 03:12:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <3efff29f.36f4b791@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 04:10:41 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World More on Karma Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/18/99 2:17:49 PM, caduceus@dial.pipex.com writes: >And when the 'seventh birth' comes, what then? In the eyes of onlookers >this individual (perhaps someone like Milarepa, as you suggest) will appear >to have reached Nirvana in a single lifetime. From the Theosophical view >such onlookers will be mistaken. Theosophy would say that what is gained >in this life for that individual is the result of many, many, lifetimes of >effort. Even then that individual consciousness is not entirely 'free' of >Karma. What is the Karma for one who enters Nirvana and leaves the rest >of Humanity to suffer? For the Law will call it back into rebirth at the >appropriate stage of the ongoing cycles and call it into account for that >which was done, or left undone, in the previous cycles. The only reason Milarepa was said to achieve "enlightenment" in one lifetime is because he had committed heinous crimes in that same lifetime acting as a black magician at the instigation of his evil mother. Actually, he had already achieved his enlightenment in previous lifetimes, and had to finally only learn compassion and to repent his past evil in order to transcend his karma and attain Moksha. It was only later in his young manhood, after he had killed his mothers enemies, that he made his final renunciation and did penance by teaching and saving others for many years until he became the chief abbot of his sect. The only difference between a high adept black or white magician is motive and not the level of spiritual knowledge or enlightenment--which is available to both. In essence, had Milarepa not changed his motivation, he would still have achieved enlightenment in that lifetime--but as a Pratyeka Buddha who would have continued working his black magic selfishly until his death and final Nirvana--which might last until the end of the manvantara/pralaya. Then, he would be reborn in the next great cycle at the lowest end of the scale to repeat the path of pain and suffering all over again--as an almost automatic compensation (based on the 2nd fundamental laws of energy and cycles) for his previous unmitigated bad karma. LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 06:14:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA02073 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 06:04:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Al" To: Subject: Theos-World Jerry: Books Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:03:48 -0000 Message-ID: <001101be7392$e08b5640$54bca4c1@alan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE7392.E08B5640" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <006d01be7305$11232820$297d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE7392.E08B5640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Wrote: >>Thus my books on Magic<< Are you the guy who wrote the Enochian books? Which books have you wrote? Al ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE7392.E08B5640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry=20 Wrote:
 
>>Thus my books on Magic<<
 
Are=20 you the guy who wrote the Enochian books? Which books have you=20 wrote?
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE7392.E08B5640-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 06:29:58 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA02628 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 06:17:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World More on Karma and forgiveness Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:14:03 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01be739c$b162fee0$8a0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <2ae662f2.36f4b3e9@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 21st 1999 Dear Leon: As far as I know from my study of Theosophy and the ethics implied by the concept of human perfectibility under the process of reincarnation, which is fully under Karmic law, your comments are correct and I thank you for making them so clear for all of us. Dallas ======================= -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of LeonMaurer@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 12:55 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World More on Karma and forgiveness >>>The notion that we can dissolve our Karma along with the 'defilements' >seems, to me, to be a variation on the Christian theme where we can live >an immoral life, doing great harm to others, providing we have >forgiveness at the end.>> > >Well, I agree that the Moll Flanders or Darth Vader approach >doesn't work. Probably the best example I can think of here >is Milarepa, the great Tibetan saint and yogi who eliminated >his personal karma in a single lifetime. His life was not an >easy one. He toiled, studied, etc for long years until at least >he was enlightened. It is not a life that many of us would care >to go through, but it does demonstrate the possibility. Milarepa might have been able to achieve enlightenment by hard study and toil in one lifetime--(applying "self devised and self determined efforts" as we say in theosophy)--during which he previously created great evil... However, this didn't relieve him of his karma.... Since, by becoming enlightened and taking the oath of repentance and compassion--in essence the "Bodhisattva Vow"--he assigned himself to endless lifetimes of toil and trouble in helping achieve enlightenment and keeping from harm those who are (possibly even until today) the reincarnations of all the beings he originally wronged. (I'm sure Milarepa is still around doing his thing. In fact, I may even have once bumped into him cleaning out the toilets after a ULT Lodge meeting.:-) Therefore, forgiveness is only valid for the one harmed, since forgiving the person who harmed one is a sign of enlightenment and serves as a compassionate means to help rid the former evil one of his karmic burden. To forgive oneself becomes valid only when one truly repents in the heart and takes and lives out a compensatory vow to return good for bad to all beings in the future. This is the only true means to transcend ones karma. But, there is no escape from it, since the laws of cycles govern all causes and effects, and the only way to stop a wave of bad karma is to set up an equal and opposite wave of good karma... (Just as we can now eliminate loud and harmful noises by recreating and reflecting their sound waves in the opposite direction.) And, this takes much toil and effort, sometimes long after the forgiveness has been acknowledged within oneself. That, incidentally, is the true meaning of the "Confession" in Christianity and the yearly "Yom Kippur" repentance and forgiveness in Judaism. To "forgive oneself" is actually meaningless unless true repentance and full restitution has been avowed in the heart. Such is the Bodhisattva Vow. Anything else is no better than the "vicarious atonement" of fundamentalist Christianity. I pity the Pratyeka Buddha with many lifetimes of evil behind him who comes out of Nirvana after Pralaya and has to face the Tsunamic wave of all his bad karma and be constantly drowned in it during the entire next Manvantara. If such compensation is simply a matter of Universal cyclic law, then one can hardly imagine the nature and extent of the suffering that might entail as he starts again on the path of experience from ground zero. This is something to say about "karmic responsibility." What a great release of ones own karma it would be to enlighten such a one to recognize the true meaning and value of the Bodhisattva Vow. Best wishes for good karma, LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 10:11:16 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA14290 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:40:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Arnaldo Sisson Filho" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World TS Organizations Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:42:22 -0300 Message-ID: <01be73b1$81e310a0$b21dfcc8@zaz.bsb.zaz.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE7398.5C9F0060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE7398.5C9F0060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whithout exactly desiring to take sides in this=20 particular dicussion, I want to congratulate Jerry for this point of view, because it is conducive to respect among all theosophical organizatins. Personally, I am a member of the Adyar TS, but I would certainly love to be a member of the other theosophical organizations, because it is not very difficult to see, if we study something of history seriously, that ALL of them have points to be taken into account if we are searching after truth. That is why I congratulate you Jerry for this message. Arnaldo. -----Mensagem original----- De: Jerry Schueler Para: Theos World Data: S=E1bado, 20 de Mar=E7o de 1999 16:28 Assunto: Theos-World TS Organizations =20 =20 >>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are=20 generally very skeptical & even sometimes disdainful of the claims = of=20 Mrs Tingley, Mrs Besant, Mr Hargrove, Mr Leadbeater, Mrs Bailey &c, = but=20 apparently accept without question Mr Crosbie's claims. << =20 Why? Doesn't it seem natural that this would be the case, else why would Crosbie have felt the need to establish a=20 separate organization? Each TS was established out of a deep-seated skeptism of its parent organization. Why is this ironic? Each and every TS currently believes that it and it alone it best serving the "original" program. This is perfectly natural, else they would all re-combine back=20 into a single organization. =20 Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE7398.5C9F0060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Whithout exactly desiring to take = sides in this=20
particular dicussion, I want=20 to congratulate Jerry
for this point of view, = because it is=20 conducive to
respect among all theosophical = organizatins.
 
Personally, I am a member of the Adyar TS, but = I
would certainly love to be a member of the=20 other 
theosophical organizations, because it is not=20 very 
difficult to see, if we study something of=20 history 
seriously, that ALL of them have points to be=20 taken 
into account if we are searching after = truth.
 
That is why I congratulate you Jerry = for this=20 message.
 
Arnaldo.
 
-----Mensagem = original-----
De:=20 Jerry Schueler <gschueler@netgsi.com>
P= ara:=20 Theos World <theos-talk@theosophy.com>=
Data:=20 Sábado, 20 de Março de 1999 16:28
Assunto:=20 Theos-World TS Organizations

>>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are=20
generally very skeptical & even sometimes disdainful of the = claims=20 of
Mrs Tingley, Mrs Besant, Mr Hargrove, Mr Leadbeater, Mrs = Bailey=20 &c, but
apparently accept without question Mr Crosbie's=20 claims.  <<
 
Why? Doesn't it seem natural that this would be the case,
else why would Crosbie have felt the need to establish a
separate organization? Each TS was established out of a
deep-seated skeptism of its parent organization. Why
is this ironic? Each and every TS currently believes that
it and it alone it best serving the "original" = program.=20 This
is perfectly natural, else they would all re-combine back =
into a single organization.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE7398.5C9F0060-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 10:54:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA16681 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:11:26 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Arnaldo Sisson Filho" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World == What is MAYA ? -- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:02:13 -0300 Message-ID: <01be73b4$2f541660$b21dfcc8@zaz.bsb.zaz.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01BE739B.0A06DE60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BE739B.0A06DE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sincere thanks, Dallas, for sharing with us this marvelous quotation from dearest Damodar. =20 Arnaldo. =20 -----Mensagem original----- De: W. Dallas TenBroeck Para: theos-talk@theosophy.com Data: S=E1bado, 20 de Mar=E7o de 1999 23:25 Assunto: RE: Theos-World =3D=3D What is MAYA ? --=20 =20 =20 Mar 20th 1999 =20 Dear Gerry: =20 Years ago I found that Damodar K. Mavlankar, one of HPB' earliest = and most devoted students in India wrote something very interesting on = the understanding of MAYA. I reproduce it below: =20 =20 "There is only one eternal infinite existence, call it either spirit = or matter. I will, however, call it by the latter name, as that is most = suited in its common understanding for what I am to state. =20 Matter, as you know, we call Maya. Some say that this thing does = not really exist; but I do not agree to that. In my opinion it is = called Maya simply on account of these transformations. It is never = steady. The process is ever working. The one infinite agglomeration of = matter is in some of its modes becoming grosser,while in others becoming = more sublimated. The circle is ever turning its round. Nothing goes = out of that circle. Everything is kept within its bounds by the action = of the centripetal and centrifugal forces. The forms are changing, but = the inner substance remains the same. =20 The action of the centripetal force keeps us to our gross forms, and = if we have to etherealize ourselves, we must supply the centrifugal = force, which is our will. And this is the first principle in Occultism. = We must study and know the forces of nature. Every result must be in = proportion to the cause producing it. We are every minute emitting and = attracting atoms of matter. =20 Now a person who is not an occultist will have various desires, and = unconsciously to himself he will produce a cause which will attract to = him such atoms of matter as are not suited for his higher progress. The = same way, when he is emitting others, he may give them such a tendency = that they will mix with others evilly inclined; and thus other = individualities, which are thus formed, will have to suffer for no fault = of theirs. But an occultist directs both. He is the master of the = situation. He guides them, and by knowing their action he produces such = conditions as are favorable to his obtain "Nirvana." =20 But what is Nirvana? By Nirvana I mean a state, and not a locality. = It is that condition in which we are so etherealized that instead of = being merely a mode of the Infinite Existence, as at present, we are = merged in totality, or, we become the whole. =20 Another thing about the advanced Occultist is that he is in a better = position to benefit humanity. =20 The particles of which I am formed have always existed; yet I donot = know in what form they existed before. Probably they have passed = through billions of transformations, [ That all the particles of the = matter of our universe have passed through millions of transformations, = and been in every sort of form, is an old assertion of the Adepts.] Why = do I not known these? Because I [as the indestructible individuality] = did not supply the force that would have prevented the disintegration of = my [personality in this birth]. =20 I will, if I attain Nirvana, remain there till the action of the = force that put me there ceases; the effort being always in proportion = to the cause. The law of Exhaustion must assert itself. =20 In passing through this process of etherealization, you all along = give a certain tendency to the particles of which you are composed. = This tendency will always assert itself; and thus in every cycle, or = reincarnation, you will have the same advantages, which you can always = utilize to soon be free. And, by remaining longer in the Nirvana state = that the generality of humanity, you are comparatively free. [The = comparison made is with the general run of men in all races. They are = not free at any time.] So every consciousness, which has been once = fully developed, must disintegrate, if not prevented by the purity of = its successive egos till the Nirvana state is attained. Now I believe = that the full development of my consciousness as [a "Krishna" -- = Atma-Buddhi-Manas] is possibly only on this earth, and therefore if I = die before that is done, I must be reborn here. If I reach Nirvana = state, even though I am in another body, I shall know myself as {a = "Krishna"--the universal Higher SELF.}." =20 From a Letter written by D. K. Kavlankar and printed by Wm. Q. Judge = in PATH Magazine, New York, in January 1896. =20 Offered by Dallas =20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Schueler Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:44 AM Subject: Theos-World Good News! =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BE739B.0A06DE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sincere thanks, Dallas, for sharing = with us=20 this
marvelous = quotation from=20 dearest Damodar.
 
Arnaldo.
 
-----Mensagem = original-----
De:=20 W. Dallas TenBroeck <dalval@nwc.net>
Para: = theos-talk@theosophy.com = <theos-talk@theosophy.com>=
Data:=20 Sábado, 20 de Março de 1999 23:25
Assunto: = RE:=20 Theos-World =3D=3D What is MAYA ? --

Mar 20th 1999
 
Dear Gerry:
 
Years ago I found that Damodar K. Mavlankar, one of=20 HPB' earliest and most devoted students in India = wrote=20 something very interesting on the understanding of MAYA. I reproduce = it=20 below:
 
 
"There is only one eternal infinite = existence, call it=20 either spirit or matter.  I will, however, call it by the = latter name,=20 as that is most suited in its common understanding for what I am to=20 state.
 
Matter, as you know, we call Maya.  Some say = that this=20 thing does not really exist;  but I do not agree to that.  = In my=20 opinion it is called Maya simply on account of these=20 transformations.  It is never steady.  The process is = ever=20 working.  The one infinite agglomeration of matter is in some = of its=20 modes becoming grosser,while in others becoming more = sublimated.  The=20 circle is ever turning its round.  Nothing goes out of that=20 circle.  Everything is kept within its bounds by the action of = the=20 centripetal and centrifugal forces.  The forms are = changing,=20 but the inner substance remains the = same.
 
The action of the centripetal force keeps us to our gross = forms, and=20 if we have to etherealize ourselves, we must supply the centrifugal = force,=20 which is our will.  And this is the first principle in = Occultism.  We must study and know the forces of nature.  = Every=20 result must be in proportion to the cause producing it.  We are = every=20 minute emitting and attracting atoms of matter.
 
Now a person who is not an occultist will have various = desires, and=20 unconsciously to himself he will produce a cause which will attract = to him=20 such atoms of matter as are not suited for his higher = progress.  The=20 same way, when he is emitting others, he may give them such a = tendency that=20 they will mix with others evilly inclined;  and thus other=20 individualities, which are thus formed, will have to suffer for no = fault of=20 theirs.  But an occultist directs both.  He is the master = of the=20 situation.  He guides them, and by knowing their action he = produces=20 such conditions as are favorable to his obtain=20 "Nirvana."
 
But what is Nirvana?  By = Nirvana I=20 mean a state, and not a locality.  It is that = condition in=20 which we are so etherealized that instead of being merely a mode of = the=20 Infinite Existence, as at present, we are merged in totality, = or,  we=20 become the whole.
 
Another thing about the advanced Occultist is that he is in = a better=20 position to benefit humanity.
 
The particles of which I am formed have always = existed;  yet I=20 donot know in what form they existed before.  Probably they = have passed=20 through billions of transformations, [ That all the particles of the = matter=20 of our universe have passed through millions of transformations, and = been in=20 every sort of form, is an old assertion of the Adepts.]  Why do = I not=20 known these?  Because I [as the indestructible individuality] = did not=20 supply the force that would have prevented the disintegration of = my =20 [personality in this birth].
 
I=20 will, if I attain Nirvana, remain there till the action of the force = that=20 put me there ceases;  the effort being always in proportion to = the=20 cause.  The law of Exhaustion must assert = itself.
 
In=20 passing through this process of etherealization, you all along give = a=20 certain tendency to the particles of which you are composed.  = This=20 tendency will always assert itself;  and thus in every cycle, = or=20 reincarnation, you will have the same advantages, which you can = always=20 utilize to soon be free.  And, by remaining longer in the = Nirvana state=20 that the generality of humanity, you are comparatively free.  = [The=20 comparison made is with the general run of men in all races.  = They are=20 not free at any time.]  So every consciousness, which has been = once=20 fully developed, must disintegrate, if not prevented by the purity = of its=20 successive egos till the Nirvana state is attained.  Now I = believe that=20 the full development of my consciousness as [a "Krishna" = --=20 Atma-Buddhi-Manas] is possibly only on this earth, and = therefore if I=20 die before that is done, I must be reborn here.  If I reach = Nirvana=20 state, even though I am in another body, I shall know myself as {a=20 "Krishna"--the universal Higher=20 SELF.}."
 
From a Letter written by D. K. Kavlankar and printed by Wm. = Q. Judge=20 in PATH Magazine, New York, in January=20 1896.
 
Offered by Dallas
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:44=20 AM
Subject: Theos-World Good News!

 
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BE739B.0A06DE60-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 11:54:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA21323 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:05:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36F5269B.CAE24C51@eden.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:04:28 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World TS Organizations References: <01be73b1$81e310a0$b21dfcc8@zaz.bsb.zaz.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com One of the problems that has been around for a very long time among members of the various theosophical organizations is the lack of grasp of the whole picture -- what is the objective of theosophy and TS. Years ago, I used to live in a large city in India where there were two branches (each belonging to a different TS organization) within a mile of each other. Both were well known in the community. However, I have never seen a member of either visiting the other or cooperating in any activities of common interest. Nor was there any communication between members of the two branches. They could have had a joint meeting to celebrate such occasions as Founding of the TS, death anniversary of HPB etc. But not a single one. All that is changing now because of Internet. Here we directly communicate at human level (real universal brotherhood/sisterhood ?) without any intervention (censor/control/editing) of the organizational leaders or intrusion of organizational politics. We have those belonging to every one of the TS organizations as well as those who belong to none. As I had mentioned earlier, what the "Leaders" of the organizations could not achieve in over 100 years, this medium of Internet has been able to break down the barriers to communication. May be it is the plan of the real Founders, who I am sure are aware of what is going on! It is just the beginning and I will not be surprised in the long run, all organizations getting reduced to just publishing entities, except for those who believe they can have special direct connection to Adepts thru the esoteric arms of these organizations. In the above context, it is also to be noted that all organizational leaders have avoided getting involved in any discussions that go on on this maillist as well as on other theosophical maillists, and thus it appears that the pre Information Technology mentality continues even in the age of Information Technology. On a personal note, if I happen to visit the city I mentioned above, I can now freely walk in to both of them and be welcomed heartily since I have made contacts with some members over Internet. What I could not do in 13 years of living the city, I have been able to do in a year. I am sure there may be others who may have had similar experience. mkr ================= Arnaldo Sisson Filho wrote: > Whithout exactly desiring to take sides in thisparticular dicussion, > I want to congratulate Jerryfor this point of view, because it is > conducive torespect among all theosophical organizatins. Personally, I > am a member of the Adyar TS, but Iwould certainly love to be a member > of the othertheosophical organizations, because it is not > verydifficult to see, if we study something of historyseriously, that > ALL of them have points to be takeninto account if we are searching > after truth. That is why I congratulate you Jerry for this > message. Arnaldo. > > -----Mensagem original----- > De: Jerry Schueler > Para: Theos World > Data: Sábado, 20 de Março de 1999 16:28 > Assunto: Theos-World TS Organizations > >>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are > generally very skeptical & even sometimes disdainful of the > claims of > Mrs Tingley, Mrs Besant, Mr Hargrove, Mr Leadbeater, Mrs > Bailey &c, but > apparently accept without question Mr Crosbie's claims. > << Why? Doesn't it seem natural that this would be the > case,else why would Crosbie have felt the need to establish > aseparate organization? Each TS was established out of > adeep-seated skeptism of its parent organization. Whyis this > ironic? Each and every TS currently believes thatit and it > alone it best serving the "original" program. Thisis > perfectly natural, else they would all re-combine backinto a > single organization. Jerry S. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 12:31:41 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA27131 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:04:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990321180248.6697.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Robert Crosbie---Devoted Follower & Loyal Defender of Mrs Katherine Tingley Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:02:47 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Robert Crosbie---Devoted Follower & Loyal Defender of Mrs Katherine Tingley The following documents (which will be completely referenced in later postings) clearly show that during the years 1896-1904----- (a) Mr Robert Crosbie fully accepted Mrs Katherine Tingley as the true successor to William Quan Judge; (b) Mr Crosbie asserted that Mr Judge had high praise for Mrs Tingley; (c) Mr Crosbie truly believed & made public pronouncements to that effect that Mr Judge had appointed Mrs Tingley as his successor. (d) Mr Crosbie was "heart and soul" with and for Mrs Tingley. (e) Mr Crosbie personally knew Mrs Tingley, worked closely with her and wrote warm, devoted & personal letters to Mrs Tingley. (f) Mr Crosbie vigorously defended in no uncertain terms Mrs Tingley against the attacks of various "wayward" theosophists (such as Ernest T. Hargrove, Alexander Spencer and C.A. Griscom, Jr. in 1898). These documents by Mr Crosbie *sharply contrast & contradict* the false, revisionistic account of Mr Crosbie's association with Mrs Tingley published by the United Lodge of Theosophists in their 1923 pamphlet "The United Lodge of Theosophists, Its Mission and Its Future." The U.L.T. version was that Mr Crosbie was "half-hearted" in his support of Mrs Tingley or remained in Mrs Tingley's Society from 1896-1904 for "reasons of expediency." The documents below clearly indicate how misleading & false such U.L.T. claims were. [1] A PLEDGE (dated May 22, 1897) TO MRS KATHERINE TINGLEY SIGNED BY MR ROBERT CROSBIE "I . . . recognizing the person called Purple [Mrs Tingley] as being the agent of the Master I serve . . . do hereby unreservedly pledge myself, by my Higher Self, to unquestioning loyalty, devotion and obedience to her and to her support and defence as such agent, under any and all circumstances and conditions to the extent of my available means, utmost exertion, and with my life if need be. . . . So Help me my Higher Self. (Signed) Robert Crosbie Witness my hand, this 22d day of May, Eighteen hundred and Ninety-seven." [2] A LETTER (dated Feb. 2d 1898) FROM MR ROBERT CROSBIE TO MRS KATHERINE TINGLEY "ROBERT CROSBIE 24 MOUNT VERNON STREET BOSTON, MASS. Feb. 2d 1898 Dear P[Purple, Mrs Tingley]: I received your good long letter of Sunday, it was a good one indeed. . . . I will arrange a "Friends in Counsel" for Boston, and have them get to work along the lines suggested and hope to start on Saturday. . . . I remember that the day I first saw you, I recognized you as the O[outer] H[ead] without hint or instruction as such, and in spite of the fact that I was not looking for a woman's form in that connection. During that day you and I were the only ones in the E.S. room, and you came and sat down at the table at which I was working, and told me a great many things, saying that you did not know why you told me these things but that it was doubtless for some purpose. . . . All is well here. We are steady, confident and patient, yet ready to act at the word. With heart's love yours as ever Robert" [3] EXCERPTS FROM AN ARTICLE (dated April, 1898) BY ROBERT CROSBIE DEFENDING MRS TINGLEY FROM THE 1898 ATTACKS BY ERNEST T. HARGROVE, ALEXANDER H. SPENCER AND C.A. GRISCOM "THE SIFTING PROCESS by Robert Crosbie . . . The first great Leader . . . [was] H.P. Blavatsky. . . . The second greater Leader . . . [was] Wm. Q. Judge. . . . The third great Leader, Katherine A. Tingley, established [February 1898] the organization called 'Universal Brotherhood,' or 'The Brotherhood of Humanity,'. . . . It is not difficult to see what 'An Ark of Safety' the Universal Brotherhood is for the work, and to realize the wisdom of the Leader [Mrs Tingley] in sounding the key-note, when it was not generally known that the dark forces of disintegration were so close to us, and which aroused us to action, and disclosed the imminent danger. . . . Foolish are those who are attempting by legal technicalities to hinder the work. . . who never were workers in the true sense; for all who know the Leader [Mrs Tingley] best, who have worked the closest to her, are the ones who are most energetic in carrying on the work at Headquarters, and the most unswerving in their allegiance to the Leader, and certainly their judgment is worthy of the most weighty consideration, for no others are so well qualified to judge. Some names, like those of Messrs. Spencer and Griscom, Jr., have appeared in print so often in connection with the New York activities, that it might be supposed that they were workers of the Headquarters' staff, and being now connected with the disintegrating faction, it might appear that the staff was weakened by their disaffection, but they were not part of the staff, nor were they workers in the true sense, especially since the return of the Leader [Mrs Tingley] from the Crusade [around the world]. . . . It seems necessary to call attention to this point, for the part taken by them in the attack upon our Leader, (for no matter how much it is disguised, that is the real issue), might lead members to suppose that they were very essential to the work, and person whose opinions might appear to be of more weight than they really are. . . ." (4) AN APRIL 1901 ADDRESS BY ROBERT CROSBIE IN SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA IN WHICH MRS TINGLEY IS HIGHLY PRAISED ". . . Mme. Blavatsky was the first leader, by the force of her wisdom and power of leadership, and all the true students of Theosophy accept her as such. And when she appointed William Q. Judge as her successor, his leadership was accepted for the same reason---and so, too, with Katherine Tingley, who was appointed by William Q. Judge as his successor. . . . These [theosophical] results . . . will continue to grow, and remain as lasting monuments to the life-work of the immortal three---H.P. Blavatsky, William Q. Judge and Katherine Tingley." (5) ADDRESS (published May 1902) OF ROBERT CROSBIE AT A POINT LOMA CELEBRATION IN WHICH MRS TINGLEY IS AGAIN HIGHLY PRAISED ". . . we who have the privilege of assembling at this place and taking part in this ceremony of sweet and grateful remembrance---know that the establishment of this great Center [by Mrs Tingley at Point Loma, Calfornia] is a realization of what William Q. Judge lived for, worked for, hoped for, and we cannot but feel deep in our hearts that he knows and rejoices with us today. We feel that he knows of the self-sacrificing efforts made by the faithful ones, and that those efforts have been called forth by his chosen successor [Mrs Tingley], of whom he said, "she is true as steel, as clear as diamond, and as lasting as time." By her work has she [Mrs Tingley] shown to all men her fitness to demonstrate the principles laid down by H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q. Judge, by making them pratical in the daily life of mankind. Her [Mrs Tingley's] work and our work stand today as an offering of gratitude and love to that noble soul and loving human heart, whom we knew as W.Q. Judge." More to come. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 15:15:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA14600 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:12:20 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <000201be73df$60eb7ee0$dc8306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: , "Theosophy Study List" Subject: Theos-World Is a Theos. Leader appointed? Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:51:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE73D4.2A625160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE73D4.2A625160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Theosophy World #33, March 1, 1999 (Part I) re-issues: "THE NEW LEADER = from THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, September, 1929, 8-12]". In the first = paragraph we read: "Appointment of Dr. Gottfried de Purucker to succeed = the late Madame Katherine Tingley as Leader and Official Head of the = Universal Brotherhood and Theosophical Society was announced yesterday = at the International Headquarters of the Society on Point Loma. = Appointment of her successor had been made by Katherine Tingley before she died..." =20 OTOH, James Long declared that KT never appointed GdeP, and the more = never any Leader appointed any successor; to be found The Leaders Tour = in Europe, pp. 25-28. Now, who is right? Any idea? ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE73D4.2A625160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Theosophy World #33, March 1, 1999 = (Part I)=20 re-issues: "THE NEW LEADER from THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, September, = 1929,=20 8-12]". In the first paragraph we read: "Appointment of Dr. = Gottfried=20 de Purucker to succeed the late Madame Katherine Tingley as Leader and = Official=20 Head of the Universal Brotherhood and Theosophical Society was announced = yesterday at the International Headquarters of the Society on Point = Loma.=20 Appointment of her successor had been made by
Katherine Tingley = before she=20 died..."
 
OTOH, James Long declared that KT never = appointed=20 GdeP, and the more never any Leader appointed any successor; to be found = The=20 Leaders Tour in Europe, pp. 25-28.
 
Now, who is right? Any = idea?
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE73D4.2A625160-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 15:30:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA15788 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:23:33 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: <5f287c45.36f562ce@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:21:18 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: Theos-World TS Organizations Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/21/99 5:53:50 PM, you wrote: <> Doss, You have made this statement umpteen times on this list, but at last I feel I have to say a little in defense of the "leaders" of various organizations. You are right that we have yet to see a high office-holder in the T.S. make comments on this list. But I know for a *fact* that they get regular reports on what is said here, who said it, and what the result was. Just this weekend I spoke with the leaders of not one but TWO different associations, and BOTH persons referenced this list and recent conversations. The reasons various leaders don't participate here is twofold, I suspect, though you must understand this is *my supposition* and not their statements. First, these folks are extremely busy. I feel very fortunate to talk on the phone with either one of them once every six months. Running any organization is extremely time consuming, and running a T.S. is even more so, since they are terribly small outfits with a tremendous number of responsibilities. Secondly, the conversations on this list would hardly ever warrant an organizational voice. Most of our conversations are sniping, or desultory chat, or random questions such as I sometimes ask. None of these require the presence of the head of a T.S. to answer. If what's happening on this list is so groundbreaking and amazing, why do we only have 100 or so readers, and why don't all the members of the T.S.s who meet in person up and leave their groups and join this list? I myself see this list as a valuable tool, and I've made a number of friends a learned a great number of things. It has been mind-opening. But I don't think this list replaces in-person interaction, nor is this list or any other about the break down organizational barriers, whether this century or next. Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 17:00:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA26451 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:59:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: Are TRY and DARE in Today's TSs? Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:57:24 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be73ee$2f741520$9a5895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00c001be7225$52628fa0$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Jerry, >>> Theosophists seem to ignore >>> the TRY and DARE commands of occultism on this one. >> This is a sweeping generalisation based on assumption. > No, its based on reading the materials disseminated > by the TSs today. Whenever we speak of people as implying 'all of them' we are making sweeping generalisations. Whatever the aims of the TS and the public statements made by varous individuals about its general purpose, you and I simply do not know under what 'motto' individual theosophists around the world live their 'inner lives'. And bear in mind, not all theosophists belong to the TS. All we can do is make assumptions about the 'inner lives' of others, especially those we will never even hear of, let alone meet. To point this out to you is not to make an accusation, it is simply the ABC of logic and common sense. I notice you keep repeating the words DARE and TRY but you say nothing about the first instruction - "KNOW". Doesn't 'Right knowledge' come before 'right action'? The last instruction is to KEEP SILENT, which you inform us you have not. "The motto of the true Occultist [is]: To know, to dare, and to KEEP SILENT." (H.P.Blavatsky) > The whole concept of TRY and DARE is downplayed and > warned against in today's TSs unless you believe that > TRY-to-be-moral and DARE-to-be-nice are what > these occult terms mean. Why the sarcasm, Jerry? If you want to DARE, who is stopping you? If you believe you can become liberated in this life time, again, who is stoping you? I don't belong to the TS but I do know we don't need to run others down in order to tread our own path. I am begining to lose track of what it is you do want and on what basis you are seeking to establish your argument for 'single-lifetime liberation' and for 'disolving karma in a single lifetime'. In a previous post ("Responses to Peter") you wrote: > The goal here is liberation, not entering nirvana, which > is another thing altogether. Our goal is the bodhisattva. > Our goal is to come back with full memory intact, for > the purpose of helping others lessen their karmic burdens. Do you want Liberation in this life time, or, do you want to explore 'psychism' and magic? Do you wish to disolve and help others to disolve their personal karma in this lifetime , or do you wish to experiment, and encourage others to experiment, in magic, psychism and the astral planes? If your answer to each question is 'magic and psychism' then you are likely to be creating, not disolving, karma for many lifetimes to come, in my view. And as far as I understand Theosophy, I believe that is the Theosophical view as well. You refer to Tibetan Buddhism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism for support of your 'single-lifetime liberation' view. Yet which one of these noble religions encourages the pursuit of magic, psychism and delving into the 'astral planes' as a means to achieve that Liberation or to become a Bodhisattva? You write: > I view the entire TS milieu today as one of extreme > conservativism, which is why I am certain that > HPB would never be accepted by the TSs today > if her reincarnation were here. Yes, it is very tempting to believe that HPB would be a challenge to the other person and not ourselves. Best wishes Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 17:15:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA26661 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:01:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: Self-Defeating? Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:59:26 -0000 Message-ID: <000101be73ee$781056e0$9a5895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00a801be7222$313712e0$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Jerry, >>Do you therefore believe that HPB and her Teachers had a "self defeating" attitude?<< > I believe that they only gave out what they felt would be understood > at the time. The doctrine of moksha and jivamukti would not have been > understood. They had to spend the vast amount of their efforts just > explaining the basic concepts of karma and reincarnation, which > were pretty much new concepts to the West. I'm presuming you are refering to the doctrine of moksha and jivamukti as support for your 'single lifetime enlightenment / liberation view? You are quite right, of course, that only a certain amount was given out by HPB and her Teachers. Yet, along with basic concepts, HPB and her Teachers gave out some very abstruse and complex doctrines, especially in the Secret Doctrine. You yourself say no one understands the GV model, as you call it, in the SD. So, I'm not sure I understand what is so difficult about the doctrine of moksha and jivamukti, compared to these other doctrines. In relation to the latter, why would the Teachers deliberately omit moksha & jivamukti for fear of them being too difficult, as you suggest? The fact is the Teaching they *did* give out and spend such a lot of energy on is the 'long term view', a view which you regard as "self defeating". Also, one of the things HPB definitely said was that to reach enlightenment in one lifetime was a rare exception. Its easy for us to say, "If the Master had said more he would have agreed with me." It is much harder for us when what They *did* teach doesn't fit in with what we want to believe. Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 17:19:10 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA27005 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:04:50 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: Some Responses and Defenses Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:02:41 -0000 Message-ID: <000701be73ee$ec404c00$9a5895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00c801be7226$b56d1060$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Jerry, you write: > I feel it important just to discuss these > important subjects. Liberation is an option that is available to > anyone, but not if we are ignorant of it. Yes, of course it is important to discuss these subjects. What do you think Dallas, myself and others been trying to do just recently if not that? But let us discuss and weigh our different views on their merit, and not on the basis of negative attitudes that you ascribe to those who disagree with you. According to you: to disagree with your view of psychology is 'to hate it'. To differ with your view of karma and reincarnation is to have a 'self defeating attitude'. To question your view of 'single-lifetime enlightenment' is to 'feel unworthy'. To suggest that HPB does not support your view, is 'to fear liberation' - and on, and on. As this is a Theosophy group I presume we discuss the views expressed here in relation to the Teachings of Theosophy. In this light: - what is the basis for your view that people are reborn just because they think they will be? - what support can you offer for your belief that this might be our 'seventh life' but we just don't know it? - how do you reconcile experimenting with psychism with disolving all our Karma and achieving Liberation in this one lifetime? Can you substantiate those views without attributing negative attitudes to those who might disagree? I would welcome that. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: 19 March 1999 16:37 To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Some Responses and Defenses >>Come now, Jerry, this repeated attribution of negative attitudes to other theosophists in this group adds nothing to the validity to your arguments, nor does it lessen the validity of views different to your own. << First of all, I am not trying to win converts. Secondly, I do not mean to imply that my views are valid while those of others are invalid. The fear of psychism and liberation, and the feeling of unworthiness because it is such a terribly hard Path that takes seven lifetimes and so on is a valid point of view for those who are indeed not ready to get into such things. The TSs fear publishing such things because they know damn well that someone out there will get hurt by it. I understand this. I just think that sometimes they go a little overboard. To err on the side of caution is not necessarily the way to go with occult matters. I feel it important just to discuss these important subjects. Liberation is an option that is available to anyone, but not if we are ignorant of it. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 17:23:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA26807 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:03:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: Who's Ready? Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:00:56 -0000 Message-ID: <000601be73ee$add9dee0$9a5895c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00b001be7222$b6b01480$037d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com <> > Agreed. But maybe there are a few who do ask, and > it is to them only that I say these things. Anyone who > feels unready or unworthy obviously still has work to do, > and can kindly disregard all my postings on the topic of > liberation. > Jerry S Jerry, We were discussing HPB's reference to the 'Srotopatti', one who 'enters the stream'. I mentioned it because it is the only thing HPB says that I could find which comes anywhere near your 'single-lifetime enlightenment/liberation' view. The chela is said to have only seven more successive lives from this point on. The final one being where the chela, or rather Initiate at that stage, either enters or renounces Nirvana. You wrote: >>> Another point I keep trying to make > is that maybe this IS out 7th. > How do we know that it is not? What I meant to reply was - "If we have to ask then it isn't." But the answer I gave is good enough. The reason for this is plain if we relect upon what HPB was refering to. HPB informs us in The Glossary in Part 3 of The Voice of the Silence that the Srotopatti is the first of the Four Paths leading to 'Enlightenment'. These Four Paths are also mentioned in the Secret Doctrine, qouted below, where HPB explain they are related to the grades of Initiation. She points out that while there are four grades mentioned in the exoteric works, esoterically they number seven: "There are four grades of initiation mentioned in exoteric works, which are known respectively in Sanskrit as "Scrotapanna," "Sagardagan," "Anagamin," and "Arhan" -- the four paths to Nirvana, in this, our fourth Round, bearing the same appellations. The Arhan, though he can see the Past, the Present, and the Future, is not yet the highest Initiate; for the Adept himself, the initiated candidate, becomes chela (pupil) to a higher Initiate. Three further higher grades have to be conquered by the Arhan who would reach the apex of the ladder of Arhatship. There are those who have reached it even in this fifth race of ours, but the faculties necessary for the attainment of these higher grades will be fully developed in the average ascetic only at the end of this Root-Race, and in the Sixth and Seventh. Thus there will always be Initiates and the Profane till the end of this minor Manvantara, the present life-cycle." HPB points out that the grades of Initiation are in turn intimately connected with the spiritual, mental and 'physical' evolution of humanity in this, our fourth, round. The highest grade of initiation being the highest form of Adeptship on our world. From this I would suggest that the true Initiate would not only 'care' but would very definitely KNOW if this incarnation was his 'seventh life'. Where does your statement about feeling "unready" or "unworthy" fit into all of this? On what basis do you feel you might be on your 'seventh life', but just don't know it? Regards Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 21 21:45:00 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id VAA24555 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:39:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990321213849.00697444@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:38:49 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Re: Theos-World TS Organizations In-Reply-To: <5f287c45.36f562ce@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Rich: Your response is appreciated. I will add my comments as soon as possible. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 02:44:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id CAA19116 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:41:23 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990322024021.00d477b0@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:40:21 -0600 To: From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World TS Organizations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Analdo: Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will add my comments as soon as possible. It is only when we openly and in a friendly and objective manner discuss the issues we can all grow together and the mission of theosophy, in my humble opinion, can be furthered. Yours in brotherhood. mkr At 05:20 PM 3/21/1999 -0300, you wrote: >Dear Ramadoss, > >I will make some comments on your nice message in a spirit of cooperation >and true brotherhood. With Best Wishes, Arnaldo. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 02:59:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id CAA19804 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:55:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990322025425.006ca9a4@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:54:25 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World TS Organizations In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990322024021.00d477b0@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Sorry I misspelt your name, Arnaldo. mkr ==== At 02:40 AM 3/22/1999 -0600, you wrote: >Dear Analdo: > >Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will add my comments as soon as >possible. > >It is only when we openly and in a friendly and objective manner discuss >the issues we can all grow together and the mission of theosophy, in my >humble opinion, can be furthered. > >Yours in brotherhood. > >mkr > >At 05:20 PM 3/21/1999 -0300, you wrote: >>Dear Ramadoss, >> >>I will make some comments on your nice message in a spirit of cooperation >>and true brotherhood. With Best Wishes, Arnaldo. >> > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 11:51:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA00723 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:34:08 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <199903221733.TAA20272@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> From: "mika perala" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:44:35 +0000 Subject: Theos-World Sherry Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199903201300.HAA25930@pippin.imagiware.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01d) Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Sherry wrote: > > Oh I forgot about you Mike, that make's three! LOLOL...I do hit delete on > certain names I have now become familiar with...doesn't leave much else to > read on this list :-). > Peace to you > Sherry > PS > I got the tongue-in-cheek in message the first time Good!! Though here in Finland we have our tongues 'in the middle of our mouths' in these kind of situations... Mika 8) lurklurk -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 11:53:22 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA00714 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:34:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <199903221733.TAA20235@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> From: "mika perala" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:44:35 +0000 Subject: Theos-World Weird stuff Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199903202015.OAA31872@pippin.imagiware.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01d) Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi! Can somebody help me and tell me why I get this kind of jargon with these theos-messages. Thank you > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
>>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are = >
generally=20 > very skeptical & even some -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 11:58:53 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA00537 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:32:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:26:53 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Response to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>In relation to the latter, why would the Teachers deliberately omit moksha & jivamukti for fear of them being too difficult, as you suggest?<< These concepts only make sense if you first firmly believe in reincarnation and karma. I first came into these teachings several years before Theosophy, and they had little meaning to me until I absorbed the idea of reincarnation and karma first. And even then, they only have an appeal if you feel "tired" of treading the Wheel of Life. Many people are still very happy having life after life, and still look forward to it. Only those who are weary of it all are receptive to the idea of liberation. Buddhism, for example, stresses life's sufferings before mentioning that there is a way out of it. It is somewhat ironic that the Path sucker's us in with a promise of Liberation only to change its tune when the final goal is within sight and ask that we renounce it to deliberately return to help others. This is a Choice that everyone must make for themselves at the proper time. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 12:06:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA31594 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:21:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:15:21 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Response to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>I notice you keep repeating the words DARE and TRY but you say nothing about the first instruction - "KNOW". Doesn't 'Right knowledge' come before 'right action'? The last instruction is to KEEP SILENT, which you inform us you have not.<< I think that the TSs are doing a good job with the KNOW part. The real reason that they refrain from the TRY and DARE is that they all follow HPB's warnings and cautions, and I am sympathethic to this. I was just pointing out that they don't go into TRY and DARE, not that they should. In fact, it is left to individual members to TRY and DARE on their own. The keep SILENT part has several facets, one of which is that esoteric experience cannot be put into words properly anyway and sometimes silence is the best answer to a question (as Buddhist Masters do all the time). Another is that any mention automatically tends to inflate the ego because it always tends to carry an "I am better than you" flavor with it. <> Its not "my" view, but a well established teaching coming from the very religions that HPB wanted us to study and compare via the 2nd Objective. I could just as well have said "thus have I heard." Its message is, I think, simply one of hope. The flood of Tibetan Buddhist books currently on the market almost all mention this possiblility remote as it may be. Why? Because it inspires hope. It provides us with a goal to shoot for. Shooting for a better life next time around just doesn't inspire me very much, but if it happens I certainly won't complain. Jerry S. PS, Many Theosophists use HPB's denouncement of psychism as an excuse to avoid any occult practices at all. Whenever it is suggested that the Globes can be visited here and now, for example, a great wailing cry of the dangers of psychism goes up. Psychism only concerns lower psychic vision and has nothing at all to do with intuition or higher scrying, or even with meditation leading to mystical or other higher altered states. It is fear and fear alone that does this. Psychism, while dangerous and to be avoided, is often an excuse for doing nothing at all. I refrain from psychism as HPB defines it, myself, and always have. Not out of any fear, but simply because the results are so unreliable. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 13:21:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA13741 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:07:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990322130649.00d8e244@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:06:49 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Weird stuff In-Reply-To: <199903221733.TAA20235@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> References: <199903202015.OAA31872@pippin.imagiware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com When the msg is written using some of the browsers, the html codes are inserted. If the same msg is read using a browser, you will not see them because they are interpreted and displayed. mkr At 07:44 PM 3/22/1999 +0000, you wrote: >Hi! >Can somebody help me and tell me why I get this kind of jargon >with these theos-messages. > >Thank you > >> >> >> >> >> >> > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> >> >> >> >>
>>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are = >>
generally=20 >> very skeptical & even some > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 14:36:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA26207 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:35:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Weird stuff Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:33:50 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be74a3$4b1dfba0$c96545c2@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990322130649.00d8e244@mail.eden.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi Doss, Can I add to what you have said. Most email software and browsers offer a choice of formats as to how to send a message - either "Plain Text" or "Rich Text". "Rich Text" uses HTML. If your browser receives in either mode it simply gives you a nice page to read whichever way it was sent originally. However some browsers / email packages only have "Plain Text" capability. So when this type of browser receives a "Rich Text" message it shows all the HTML codes. There are two solutions to this. 1) Get a better email / browser package that can cope with both types of messages. This isn't a realistic option if you use your email facility at work / Universtiy etc. 2) Those of us who can choose which format to use should aim to send messages in "Plain Text" to a List or Newsgroup to help those who only have this capability. For example, I use Microsft Outlook 98. When I reply to an email, if I select the "Format" menu at the top of the page, the drop down menu allows me to choose "Plain" or "Rich (HTML)" text. Different packages will have different ways to select the Format option. Hope this helps Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K Ramadoss > Sent: 22 March 1999 19:07 > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Weird stuff > > > When the msg is written using some of the browsers, the html codes are > inserted. If the same msg is read using a browser, you will not see them > because they are interpreted and displayed. > > mkr > At 07:44 PM 3/22/1999 +0000, you wrote: > >Hi! > >Can somebody help me and tell me why I get this kind of jargon > >with these theos-messages. > > > >Thank you > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > >> > >> > >> > >>
>>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are = > >>
generally=20 > >> very skeptical & even some > > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 17:31:47 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA16427 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:15:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: alpha@dircon.co.uk Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:14:01 GMT Message-Id: <199903222314.XAA21356@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: alpha@popmail.dircon.co.uk (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World 1975 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Richard, Thanks for the reference and for giving the whole of the passage in question. How is zero A.D. arrived at? An alignment of planets? Tony > >"Let every member know, moreover, that the time for such priceless acquisition >is limited; the writer of the present is old, her life is well-nigh worn out, >and she may be summoned "home" any day and almost any hour. And if her place >is even filled up, perchance by another worthier and more learned than >herself, still THERE REMAIN BUT A FEW YEARS to the last hour of the >term--namely, till December the 31st, 1899. Those who will not have profited >by the opportunity (given to the world in every last quarter of a century), >those who will not have reached a certain point of psychic and spiritual >development, or that point from which begins the cycle of Adeptship by that >day -- those will advance no further than the knowledge already acquired. No >Master of Wisdom form the East will himself appear or send anyone to Europe or >America after than period, and the sluggards will have to renounce every >chance of advancement in their present incarnation--until the year 1975. Such >is the law, for we are in KALI YUGA-- the Black Age-- and the restrictions in >this cycle, the first 5000 years of which will expire in 1897, are great and >almost insuperable." -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 19:21:33 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id TAA29864 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:09:18 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990322190824.00d80c50@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:08:24 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Theos-World Weird stuff In-Reply-To: <000001be74a3$4b1dfba0$c96545c2@et.u-net.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19990322130649.00d8e244@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Hi, Peter: Appreciate your detailed explanation. Most of the time I use Eudora for one simple reason. Its msg files are plain ascii. Thus I can open it with any editor and search, copy etc. It does not have the ability to handle fancy html fonts except it has some very limited display capabilities. ...mkr At 08:33 PM 3/22/1999 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Doss, > >Can I add to what you have said. > >Most email software and browsers offer a choice of formats as to how to send >a message - either "Plain Text" or "Rich Text". "Rich Text" uses HTML. If >your browser receives in either mode it simply gives you a nice page to read >whichever way it was sent originally. > >However some browsers / email packages only have "Plain Text" capability. So >when this type of browser receives a "Rich Text" message it shows all the >HTML codes. > >There are two solutions to this. >1) Get a better email / browser package that can cope with both types of >messages. This isn't a realistic option if you use your email facility at >work / Universtiy etc. > >2) Those of us who can choose which format to use should aim to send >messages in "Plain Text" to a List or Newsgroup to help those who only have >this capability. > >For example, I use Microsft Outlook 98. When I reply to an email, if I >select the "Format" menu at the top of the page, the drop down menu allows >me to choose "Plain" or "Rich (HTML)" text. Different packages will have >different ways to select the Format option. > >Hope this helps > >Peter > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com >> [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of M K Ramadoss >> Sent: 22 March 1999 19:07 >> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Weird stuff >> >> >> When the msg is written using some of the browsers, the html codes are >> inserted. If the same msg is read using a browser, you will not see them >> because they are interpreted and displayed. >> >> mkr >> At 07:44 PM 3/22/1999 +0000, you wrote: >> >Hi! >> >Can somebody help me and tell me why I get this kind of jargon >> >with these theos-messages. >> > >> >Thank you >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> http-equiv=3DContent-Type> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>>I find it somewhat ironic that U.L.T. associates are = >> >>
generally=20 >> >> very skeptical & even some >> > >> >> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com >> >> Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >> teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >> "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. >> > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 22:21:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA19839 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:08:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:27:48 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World More Responses to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >> - what is the basis for your view that people are reborn just because they think they will be?>> I don't believe I ever said that, Peter. However, it is true that most of what happens to us is the result of our beliefs. HPB said that those who don't believe in an afterlife won't have one. >>- - what support can you offer for your belief that this might be our 'seventh life' but we just don't know it?<< Common sense. Unless we can recall our past six lives, how can we know for sure? Here is a litmus test: The very fact that we have a desire for liberation indicates that we are ready for it regardless of the number of lifetimes we may have had. If we have no such desire, then we aren't ready yet. <- - how do you reconcile experimenting with psychism with disolving all our Karma and achieving Liberation in this one lifetime?> Who ever said anything about "experimenting with psychism?" Dissolving karma and achieving Liberation in this one lifetime is an old Eastern doctrine that is coming to the fore today via the flood of Tibetan Buddhist texts being published. It is intended to inspire hope although statistically our chances are slim. I think that the real point here is that we need to begin treading a spiritual Path right now, in this life. Our ability to help others is severely limited until we gain the needed spiritual insight. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 22 22:27:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA19852 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:08:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:05:42 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Response to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>According to you: to disagree with your view of psychology is 'to hate it'. To differ with your view of karma and reincarnation is to have a 'self defeating attitude'. To question your view of 'single-lifetime enlightenment' is to 'feel unworthy'. To suggest that HPB does not support your view, is 'to fear liberation' - and on, and on.<< Peter, I can only hope that I never really came across with such glaring nonsense. You are reading between my lines, but even that is mostly my fault. No, I don't care if everyone disagrees or agrees with me at all. I don't even expect most folks to agree right off the bat, but rather perhaps to agree some years downstream long after I am forgotten. Dallas' words implied, if not hatred, then outright denigration of modern psychology. He thinks that Theosophy can explain human behavior better. I think that he is wrong, and just wanted to give an alternate view. My feeling is that psychology has its place. Theosophy, for example, says that we need to eliminate negative thinking, but fails to mention that a requirement for more lifetimes is itself negative thinking. If it takes us more lifetimes, then so be it, but thinking this beforehand is in fact self-defeating. I never pointed to anyone in particular as self-defeating, but rather the idea of having to wait 7 or so more lifetimes. We all begin with feelings of unworthiness as part of our human constitution. What I am saying is that we have to get past that if we want to go anywhere at all on a spiritual Path. My comments can be boiled down to the fact that we all have self-defeating feelings within us and that these have to be overcome before any real progress can be made, else we will just sit on the sidelines and imagine how nice things will be in future lives instead of how nice they could be in this one. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 02:06:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id BAA07534 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:55:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:53:59 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: Theos-World 1975 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/22/99 11:31:35 PM, you wrote: <> A.D. stands for "Anno Domini" or "The Year of Our Lord" referring of course to Christ's birth. This was calculated by monks in the early Middle Ages and stuck as the standard Western dating method in time, though in fact Rome and other Western nations had used a great variety of calendars. Modern scholarship, ironically, puts Jesus' birth around 7 B.C., or "Before Christ." I remember reading somewhere in Theosophical literature that this "last quarter century effort" thing got started with Tsong-Kha-Pa (a fully Buddha incarnation) in the last quarter of the 14th century. Perhaps more hard-core quote-mongers will be able to supply the exact reference. I likewise wonder now if, with the destruction of Tibet as we knew it, this last-quarter century effort will be altered or abandoned for a new one, given that Buddhism is hardly able to carry on at all in Tibet, and I doubt it is a very favorable spiritual climate for any of the Adepts. Perhaps the entire headquarters of the Brotherhood had moved (not that it was ever IN Tibet, but allegedly nearby). Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 02:21:28 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id BAA07523 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:55:14 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Richtay@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:53:38 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Liberation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 74 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com The topic of liberation has gotten me to thinking of a serious personal issue I struggle with, as no doubt we all do. Jerry S. has recently remarked that the very fact that we feel a desire for liberation means we are ready for it. The trouble is, I hardly ever feel that way. I certainly feel the desire to help others, and to make others happy, and I spend a good amount of time trying to do well on schoolwork, keep the house clean, keep up on correspondence. Hardly ever do I actually feel I've had enough of happiness and suffering and desires and fears etc. etc. to really be rid of everything and experience total freedom. When I do feel that way, it doesn't seem to last for long. Mostly I imagine liberation as some wonderful peaceful happy eternal state. Trouble is, intellectually I strongly doubt it is anything like that, or like anything I can imagine at all. At that point I don't seem to want liberation one bit. Yet the entire philosophy of Theososophy, in my opinion, was only intended for two things, and they are pratically the same (1) to induce us to be better people morally so that (2) we are fitted to begin the cycle of Adeptship in some life or other and attain liberation. Do we as Theosophists actually desire total liberation? If so, how do our lives reflect that in practical, daily terms? If not, why not? Rich -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 03:36:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id DAA12080 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:33:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: alpha@dircon.co.uk Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:33:02 GMT Message-Id: <199903230933.JAA09295@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: alpha@popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Liberation Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com You write: >Do we as Theosophists actually desire total liberation? If so, how do our >lives reflect that in practical, daily terms? If not, why not? When you ask this, what do you understand liberation (or total liberation) to be? (Appreciate you have written what you see this to be) Is the Buddha liberated? An occultist, for example, becomes a beneficient force in nature, and acts within (in line with) the laws of nature and truth. Very hard work (although it isn't most probably like this to them?) for the benefit of humanity. This could be seen to be "a kind of" liberation, but completely unselfish. Is it really possible to be totally liberated, unless the whole of humanity (or everything?) is liberated? Could total liberation exclude anything? Tony >The topic of liberation has gotten me to thinking of a serious personal issue >I struggle with, as no doubt we all do. > >Jerry S. has recently remarked that the very fact that we feel a desire for >liberation means we are ready for it. The trouble is, I hardly ever feel that >way. I certainly feel the desire to help others, and to make others happy, >and I spend a good amount of time trying to do well on schoolwork, keep the >house clean, keep up on correspondence. Hardly ever do I actually feel I've >had enough of happiness and suffering and desires and fears etc. etc. to >really be rid of everything and experience total freedom. When I do feel that >way, it doesn't seem to last for long. > >Mostly I imagine liberation as some wonderful peaceful happy eternal state. >Trouble is, intellectually I strongly doubt it is anything like that, or like >anything I can imagine at all. At that point I don't seem to want liberation >one bit. Yet the entire philosophy of Theososophy, in my opinion, was only >intended for two things, and they are pratically the same (1) to induce us to >be better people morally so that (2) we are fitted to begin the cycle of >Adeptship in some life or other and attain liberation. > >Do we as Theosophists actually desire total liberation? If so, how do our >lives reflect that in practical, daily terms? If not, why not? > >Rich > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 06:36:27 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA28009 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:22:10 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World More Responses to Peter Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:20:02 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be7527$7a256d00$266645c2@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Jerry, (and any others who may wish to comment) > >> - what is the basis for your view that people are reborn just > because they think they will be?>> > > I don't believe I ever said that, Peter. Perhaps that isn't what you meant? However you wrote: "I keep hearing Theosophists talk about 7 more lifetimes, and countless lifetimes, and so on, and I know that this attitude is self-defeating, and that therefore a rebirth would be a self-fulfilling prophesy." My understanding of Theosophy is that the Law Karma & Reincarnation is an impersonal Law. I don't have a sense that people are reborn on the basis that they believe they have 7 or more lifetimes ahead of them. I would also want to question the phrase - "I know this attitude is self defeating." If the mountain climber, taking stock of his journey, calculates that he has yet another 7000 feet to climb before he reaches the lofty heights above him, you may say you "know" he has a 'self defeating attitude' if you wish. But he is entitled to believe that making a realistic assessment of the journey ahead of him is a much healthier attitude than believing he is at the top already, but just doesn't realise it. And if he is following the map of this journey, passed down to him by reliable guides who have reached the summit long before, and who now devote their lives to helping other travellers reach the goal - then he is likely to tell us that if those guides indicate that the journey ahead will take many days it is foolish to pretend we can make it in just one. At best we will be bitterly disappointed when the day ends and the goal is still far away. At worst we will not properly prepare ourselves for the journey ahead and risk breaking ourselves in the attempt. Right attitude relies on Right Knowledge to be transformed into right action. With wrong knowledge we defeat ourselves before we have even started along the way. I like what you say about the need for 'hope', to start the journey *now* and aim for the top. This seems to me to be a good example of 'right attitude'. > ... it is true that most of what happens to us is > the result of our beliefs. HPB said that those who > don't believe in an afterlife won't have one. I think I would say "influenced by our beliefs" rather than "is the result of". After all, people are reborn even though they don't believe in reincarnation, aren't they? There is no self fulfilling prophecy there, unfortunately. With regards the statement by HPB, are you referring to Devachan experience? I've always understood that statement by HPB to refer to a 'complete materialist', ie someone who not only disbelieves in anything to do with a spiritual life but who also has done nothing (in action or aspiration) in their lifetime that could be taken into Devachan, by Buddhi-Manas. HPB adds that such an individual is quite rare, fortunately. I'm struck by the number of people there are who appear to hold no spiritual beliefs at all, who don't believe in an afterlife or reincarnation etc., and yet who give so much of their lives to helping others. And yet there seem to be so many of us who hold plenty of spiritual beliefs that do far less, if nothing at all, for our fellows. It doesn't seem to add up, does it, that the former group of people, those exemplars of Brotherhood in Action if not in thought, would have no Devachan just because of their conscious disbeliefs? While the latter group, despite their inaction, have a great Devachan because they believe there will be one. > >>- - what support can you offer for your belief that this might be our > 'seventh life' but we just don't know it?<< > > Common sense. Unless we can recall our past six lives, > how can we know for sure? Yes, I can see your logic here, Jerry. I would just offer a reminder that we are talking about the "seventh life" in the sense that HPB uses it with regards the Four Paths and the Seven Stages of Initiation leading to the highest form of Adeptship. The chela who 'enters the stream', (with seven successive lives remaining), may possibly not be able to recall her previous six lives. Yet this is already a relatively 'high' stage, I would say. Perhaps the important point for us to keep in mind is that the 'seventh life' is a stage of Initiation. My sense is that the Initiate at that stage will already have developed the capacity to remember his previous lives and would be conscious of what 'stage of Initiation' s/he had reached. > Here is a litmus test: The very fact that we have a > desire for liberation indicates that we are ready for it > regardless of the number of lifetimes we may have had. > If we have no such desire, then we aren't ready yet. I can sense you optimism rather than your logic at work here, Jerry ;-) I don't know if you have observed a similar thing to me, but I have noticed that of the many people who come across the 'spiritual path', a great many wander off from it after a time. They have felt 'the call' but for one reason or another they have not been able to sustain it. Some come, leave and return a number of different times in just one life time. I am not judging, by the way. It seems to me a similar thing happens to us on a daily basis. We touch the 'inner note' for a moment, then the personality reacts to something and we forget our-Self, then return & so on. I have a sense that a similar thing happens to us over many lifetimes. In one life we may feel the call and devote some or most of that life to it. Yet, in another life we may reach a 'stage' where we 'feel' unable to maintain the momentum. We also make mistakes, loose our footing, slip back down into the dark woods below and lose sight of the lofty peaks above for quite some time - perhaps even lifetimes. Our karma, as a result of our previous actions and inactions, places us in either favourable or unfavourable positions in which to take up our spiritual journey in each life. In the journey of many lifetimes, we are each the victim of our own causes, by and large. So I would say that there are many who feel the desire but are "not yet ready". And those that do not feel the desire, at the moment, may have felt it very keenly in previous lives and done much good work. They may be far ahead of us on the path, the noble light of their 'soul-life' being obscured, temporarily, by the hand of Karma. But as yet they have still to reach the entrance of the Path of Chelaship and Initiation where there are only seven *successive* lives still remaining. It seems to me that this is why the idea of Brotherhood is so important. For it is through this ideal that we help each other to re-awaken that burning desire for Liberation, and through mutual support help each other to sustain that living flame throughout all the trials of life. warm regards Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 10:21:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA14299 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:09:46 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36F7BCBC.E940BCB2@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:09:32 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History References: <5ee1181a.36dafbe3@aol.com> <36EB3EC9.D030D84F@azstarnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Caldwell/Graye wrote: > What in your opinion was the purpose of the original esoteric section as founded > by Madame B.? My opinion is that the Esoteric Section was formed because there were a number of members who wanted to turn Theosophy into a religion, and the Mahatmas, wanting nothing like this for the TS, gave instructions to create a separate organization for them. Bart Lidofsky -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 11:51:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA25514 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:41:12 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:34:26 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Responses to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>According to you: to disagree with your view of psychology is 'to hate it'. To differ with your view of karma and reincarnation is to have a 'self defeating attitude'. To question your view of 'single-lifetime enlightenment' is to 'feel unworthy'. To suggest that HPB does not support your view, is 'to fear liberation' - and on, and on.<< Peter, I can only hope that I never really came across with such glaring nonsense. You are reading between my lines, but even that is mostly my fault. No, I don't care if everyone disagrees or agrees with me at all. I don't even expect most folks to agree right off the bat, but rather perhaps to agree some years downstream long after I am forgotten. Dallas' words implied, if not hatred, then outright denigration of modern psychology. He thinks that Theosophy can explain human behavior better. I think that he is wrong, and just wanted to give an alternate view. My feeling is that psychology has its place. Theosophy, for example, says that we need to eliminate negative thinking, but fails to mention that a requirement for more lifetimes is itself negative thinking. If it takes us more lifetimes, then so be it, but thinking this beforehand is in fact self-defeating. I never pointed to anyone in particular as self-defeating, but rather the idea of having to wait 7 or so more lifetimes. We all begin with feelings of unworthiness as part of our human constitution. What I am saying is that we have to get past that if we want to go anywhere at all on a spiritual Path. My comments can be boiled down to the fact that we all have self-defeating feelings within us and that these have to be overcome before any real progress can be made, else we will just sit on the sidelines and imagine how nice things will be in future lives instead of how nice they could be in this one. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 12:06:37 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA25258 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:39:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:33:08 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World response to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >> - what is the basis for your view that people are reborn just because they think they will be?>> I don't believe I ever said that, Peter. However, it is true that most of what happens to us is the result of our beliefs. HPB said that those who don't believe in an afterlife won't have one. >>- - what support can you offer for your belief that this might be our 'seventh life' but we just don't know it?<< Common sense. Unless we can recall our past six lives, how can we know for sure? Here is a litmus test: The very fact that we have a desire for liberation indicates that we are ready for it regardless of the number of lifetimes we may have had. If we have no such desire, then we aren't ready yet. <- - how do you reconcile experimenting with psychism with disolving all our Karma and achieving Liberation in this one lifetime?> Who ever said anything about "experimenting with psychism?" Dissolving karma and achieving Liberation in this one lifetime is an old Eastern doctrine that is coming to the fore today via the flood of Tibetan Buddhist texts being published. It is intended to inspire hope although statistically our chances are slim. I think that the real point here is that we need to begin treading a spiritual Path right now, in this life. Our ability to help others is severely limited until we gain the needed spiritual insight. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 12:51:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA02012 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:44:54 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:38:16 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Liberation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>Do we as Theosophists actually desire total liberation? If so, how do our lives reflect that in practical, daily terms? If not, why not? Rich>> As usual Rich, you are very thought-provoking. First we have to define what liberation means. I think that all Theosophists would agree (if *all" can agree on anything at all) that it does not include nirvana. It is not escapism or leaving the physical plane. OK, so what is it? I see it as awakening, seeing through maya, being able to know what is real from what is unreal. In a psychological sense it is becoming ever more conscious. Conscious awareness of what is really going on, frees us from the karmic bondage of ignorance. When consciousness expands enough, samsara will be seen to be no different that nirvana, both being two sides of the same coin like matter and spirit are. Then it is not a question of going somewhere, but rather seeing directly and clearly where we are now. We currently know enough to be dangerous. We have the desire to help others but usually lack the Knowledge of how best to do it. Providing the right amount of physical or financial help is easy enough, but spiritual help requires that we see auras or somehow know exactly what is needed in each individual case. Does the modern Theosophical movement have a definition of liberation? Would such a definition encompass in some way the elimination of karmic bonds (i,e, ignorance, avarice, personal desire, etc)? Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 13:36:31 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id NAA09675 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:33:31 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:18:09 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Responses to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>My understanding of Theosophy is that the Law Karma & Reincarnation is an impersonal Law. I don't have a sense that people are reborn on the basis that they believe they have 7 or more lifetimes ahead of them. I would also want to question the phrase - "I know this attitude is self defeating." If the mountain climber,...<< Peter, we seem to be talking apples and oranges here. I was talking about liberation in a single lifetime, not the doctrines of reincarnation and karma. These are two separte things. The mountain climber is not an applicable simile here, because spiritual advancement is linked to imagination and self-image which can be changed in an instant. The spiritual mountain climber must clearly visualize that he/she is already at the top of the hill. >>And if he is following the map of this journey, passed down to him by reliable guides who have reached the summit long before, and who now devote their lives to helping other travellers reach the goal - then he is likely to tell us that if those guides indicate that the journey ahead will take many days it is foolish to pretend we can make it in just one. >> Agreed, but these "guides" have clearly said that it can be done in one dy. It ain't easy, they say, but it is possible. Karma, according to what these guides have told us, can be consumed (to a degree) in a second of spiritual insight. >>At best we will be bitterly disappointed when the day ends and the goal is still far away. << Actually, we soon find that the goal is the Path itself and that there is no "goal" to get to. When that idea really hits home, we are already there. >>At worst we will not properly prepare ourselves for the journey ahead and risk breaking ourselves in the attempt.<< This attitude, while emminantly practical, will never get us anywhere. How much "preparation" do we still need if we have already been reincarnating millions of lifetimes? >>Right attitude relies on Right Knowledge to be transformed into right action.>> I can't disagree with this one. Yes. >>With wrong knowledge we defeat ourselves before we have even started along the way.>> But what, exactly, is wrong knowledge? Perhaps the idea that "I am not ready in this lifetime" is wrong knowledge? >>I like what you say about the need for 'hope', to start the journey *now* and aim for the top. This seems to me to be a good example of 'right attitude'.<< We have to have hope in order to even take a first step. >>I think I would say "influenced by our beliefs" rather than "is the result of". After all, people are reborn even though they don't believe in reincarnation, aren't they? There is no self fulfilling prophecy there, unfortunately.>> But the "person" who either believes or doesn't believe is not reincarnated. Only the Higher Self, which Knows and doesn't have to believe. Karma, as cause and effect, works across planes as well as within them. >>With regards the statement by HPB, are you referring to Devachan experience? Yes. She says that just as some people can't recall their dreams, so some will seem to have a blank between lives. >>I've always understood that statement by HPB to refer to a 'complete materialist', ie someone who not only disbelieves in anything to do with a spiritual life but who also has done nothing (in action or aspiration) in their lifetime that could be taken into Devachan, by Buddhi-Manas. << It is impossible not to have done at least one kind deed, or to have been the recipient of a kind act. Everyone goes to Devachan except those Initates or Adepts who renounce it. >>I'm struck by the number of people there are who appear to hold no spiritual beliefs at all, who don't believe in an afterlife or reincarnation etc., and yet who give so much of their lives to helping others. << One is from the head, and the other from the heart. Best if we have both, I think. >> And yet there seem to be so many of us who hold plenty of spiritual beliefs that do far less, if nothing at all, for our fellows. It doesn't seem to add up, does it, that the former group of people, those exemplars of Brotherhood in Action if not in thought, would have no Devachan just because of their conscious disbeliefs?>> I personally think that everyone has a Devachan, just like modern science has shown that everyone dreams. <> This is all head-doctrine and mind-stuff. She uses "seven" in ways that are not necessarily literal. The teaching of seven more lifetimes is poetic, and not meant to be taken literally, IMHO. >> The chela who 'enters the stream', (with seven successive lives remaining), may possibly not be able to recall her previous six lives. Yet this is already a relatively 'high' stage, I would say. Perhaps the important point for us to keep in mind is that the 'seventh life' is a stage of Initiation.>> Every life experience is some kind of initiation. Occult folks throw this word around a lot and there are many interpretations of what it means. The ONLY way to know if we are somewhere in the seven required lifetimes is to determine our desire for liberation. Without such a strong desire, we almost surely aren't. When this desire, the desire to Know, is stronger than the desire for life itself (the Dark Night of the Soul, as I understand it), then we can be pretty confident that we are within the seven lifetimes somewhere. >> My sense is that the Initiate at that stage will already have developed the capacity to remember his previous lives and would be conscious of what 'stage of Initiation' s/he had reached.<< Although this would seem to be so, it is not necessarily. There have been many Adepts (HH the Dali Lama, for one) who do not recall specfic pastlives (most of which are lower psychism stuff anyway). <> I am indeed optimistic. But there is a logic here too, I think. Perhaps I am not describing this well but its there. >>I don't know if you have observed a similar thing to me, but I have noticed that of the many people who come across the 'spiritual path', a great many wander off from it after a time. They have felt 'the call' but for one reason or another they have not been able to sustain it. Some come, leave and return a number of different times in just one life time. << This is perfectly natural and to be expected. It happens to me all the time. I have cycled between spiritual work and entertainment (i.e, reading HPB and reading science fiction or fantasy), back and forth, throughout this entire lifetime. During the entertainment or rest phase, the mind is digesting or asssimilating what was learned during the work phase (hopefully). >>I have a sense that a similar thing happens to us over many lifetimes. In one life we may feel the call and devote some or most of that life to it. Yet, in another life we may reach a 'stage' where we 'feel' unable to maintain the momentum. We also make mistakes, loose our footing, slip back down into the dark woods below and lose sight of the lofty peaks above for quite some time - perhaps even lifetimes. << Agreed. There is an Arc of Ascent and an Arc of Descent, and we cycle through a miriad of minor such cycles all the time. >>Our karma, as a result of our previous actions and inactions, places us in either favourable or unfavourable positions in which to take up our spiritual journey in each life. In the journey of many lifetimes, we are each the victim of our own causes, by and large.>> Yes. >>So I would say that there are many who feel the desire but are "not yet ready". And those that do not feel the desire, at the moment, may have felt it very keenly in previous lives and done much good work. They may be far ahead of us on the path, the noble light of their 'soul-life' being obscured, temporarily, by the hand of Karma. But as yet they have still to reach the entrance of the Path of Chelaship and Initiation where there are only seven *successive* lives still remaining.>> I agree. Treading a spiritual Path, if sincere, should be humbling rather than ego-building. We may be more or less awake than our neighbors, but we are all already spiritual. >>It seems to me that this is why the idea of Brotherhood is so important. For it is through this ideal that we help each other to re-awaken that burning desire for Liberation, and through mutual support help each other to sustain that living flame throughout all the trials of life. warm regards Peter>> Agreed, and well said. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 14:51:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA19363 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:36:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <6862641.36f7fa83@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:33:07 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Who was HPB reffering to? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/20/99 2:44:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, Louis writes: << Blavatsky-net, the HPB quote of the day was: <> Now that we have come to the end of it, who do we "century twenty" theosophists, think this disciple was or is. Or, is the emphasis still on "MAY COME." Louis >> <> Dallas, Thank you for your quick feedback. As usual I find it thoughtful and well stated. I do not however, in this particular case accept your explanation as fully as others you have offered in the past. I have heard this sort of answer in various forms from many theosophists over the years. Dallas, I do not mean any disrespect, however, I have found that, when a vague or evasive answer is given to a direct question, the real answer is "I don't know" or "I'm not saying." The reason that I am bewildered by this subject, along with the last 25 years of a century scenario, is that, as theosophists, we are asked to satisfy ourselves as to the existence of the great ones, and their involvement with the theosophical philosophy as it has come down to us through HPB. Now we have in the above quote, HPB herself saying, more will be forthcoming by one of these remarkable beings in the 20th Century. This narrows the possibilities to a precious few. Either HPB had it wrong, or was toying with posterity. Or, the conditions during the last hundred years of our spiritual development did not warrant such a visit. Or, perhaps, more sadly yet, one HAS been and we knew him not! How many on these lists are familiar enough with other contemporary theosophical systems to say with certainty that another installment of the ancient wisdom is not now amongst us. A final thought. For those of us who have a deep intuitional resonance with our own theosophy, a certain lightness of being, as we come near to the majestic vistas revealed in HPb's legacy. It seems natural, to expect the same ongoing evolutionary unfoldment that is part of the cosmos itself. I for one would be very surprised if her more than ample hint, had not been filled. That would leave the oversight as usual, once again, on us. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 15:36:29 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA25209 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:22:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <000701be7573$32863e60$938306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Response to Peter Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:44:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE74B5.9C7EA280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE74B5.9C7EA280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Its not "my" view, but a well established teaching coming >from the very religions that HPB wanted us to study and >compare via the 2nd Objective. I could just as well have >said "thus have I heard." =20 > >Jerry S. Illogical, Captain. Nothing else than blasphemy and psychologising. Very = bad to see a dead person violated in such a manner. Frank=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE74B5.9C7EA280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Its not "my" view, but a well established teaching=20 coming
>from the very religions that HPB wanted us to study=20 and
>compare via the 2nd Objective. I could just as well = have
>said=20 "thus have I heard." 
>
>Jerry S.

Illogical, Captain. Nothing else than = blasphemy=20 and psychologising. Very bad to see a dead person violated in such a=20 manner.
Frank
 

 
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BE74B5.9C7EA280-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 15:51:43 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA25499 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:24:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <000601be7573$3097dbe0$938306d4@g2l4g2> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Response to Peter Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:40:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE74B5.09024980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE74B5.09024980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anybody here on this list, who surfs around the globes and give me = further information what happens there? Do they have, say on Globe C or = Globe E also internet? Frank >PS, Many Theosophists use HPB's denouncement >of psychism as an excuse to avoid any occult practices >at all. Whenever it is suggested that the Globes can >be visited here and now, for example, a great wailing >cry of the dangers of psychism goes up. Psychism >only concerns lower psychic vision and has nothing >at all to do with intuition or higher scrying, or even >with meditation leading to mystical or other higher >altered states. It is fear and fear alone that does this. >Psychism, while dangerous and to be avoided, is often >an excuse for doing nothing at all. I refrain from >psychism as HPB defines it, myself, and always have. >Not out of any fear, but simply because the results >are so unreliable. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE74B5.09024980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anybody here on this list, who surfs around the globes and give me = further=20 information what happens there? Do they have, say on Globe C or Globe E = also=20 internet?
 
Frank
 
 
>PS, Many Theosophists use HPB's denouncement
>of psychism = as an=20 excuse to avoid any occult practices
>at all. Whenever it is = suggested=20 that the Globes can
>be visited here and now, for example, a great = wailing
>cry of the dangers of psychism goes up. = Psychism
>only=20 concerns lower psychic vision and has nothing
>at all to do with = intuition=20 or higher scrying, or even
>with meditation leading to mystical or = other=20 higher
>altered states. It is fear and fear alone that does=20 this.
>Psychism, while dangerous and to be avoided, is = often
>an=20 excuse for doing nothing at all. I refrain from
>psychism as HPB = defines=20 it, myself, and always have.
>Not out of any fear, but simply = because the=20 results
>are so=20 unreliable.

         =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ; =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;    =20

-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com
=
Letters=20 to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
teachings. To = subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting = of
"subscribe"=20 or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theos= ophy.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE74B5.09024980-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 16:51:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA04606 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:46:48 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <36F81955.CAC401E1@withoutwalls.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:44:38 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Organization: Without Walls: An Internet Art Space X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Response to Peter References: <000601be7573$3097dbe0$938306d4@g2l4g2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com << Anybody here on this list, who surfs around the globes and give me further information what happens there? Do they have, say on Globe C or Globe E also internet? Frank >> I just got back from a vacation on Globe E. They don't have Internet yet, they have the "World Wide Weltanschung," oh, ... and 7 Eleven. ;-p -- Mark -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 17:06:34 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA04073 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:42:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Who was HPB reffering to? Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:39:15 -0800 Message-ID: <000701be7586$60d21240$ad0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6862641.36f7fa83@aol.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 23 Dear Louis: I DON'T KNOW, but, I can reason from what I have read and what I intuit (?) Consider what happened to "poor Brown" in Lahore when the camp where he and Olcott were resting was visited in the night by the Mahatma. Brown sensed his presence, but was afraid to turn over and see and talk to him. I think we are all in that condition. How is it possible to speak of things "spiritual" (IN THE TRUE, NOT THE PSYCHIC SENSE) and expect them to materialize for our personal benefit? I know this is not a concrete answer. None can be given. So rely on your study of theosophy, its coherence, and your own intuition. And that's all I can think of by myself and for myself - so I pass it on to you to consider. If you have a copy of LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED by Wm. Q. Judge try reading letters 8 9 10 11 and 13. I think there is enough there to satisfy our imagination if not to verify our intuitions. What more can be said ? Dal ========================= -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Teos9@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 12:33 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Who was HPB reffering to? In a message dated 3/20/99 2:44:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, Louis writes: << Blavatsky-net, the HPB quote of the day was: <> Now that we have come to the end of it, who do we "century twenty" theosophists, think this disciple was or is. Or, is the emphasis still on "MAY COME." Louis >> <> Dallas, Thank you for your quick feedback. As usual I find it thoughtful and well stated. I do not however, in this particular case accept your explanation as fully as others you have offered in the past. I have heard this sort of answer in various forms from many theosophists over the years. Dallas, I do not mean any disrespect, however, I have found that, when a vague or evasive answer is given to a direct question, the real answer is "I don't know" or "I'm not saying." LOUIS I DON'T THINK ANYONE WHO IS EITHER KNOWLEDGEABLE OR HOPEFUL CAN CONVEY IN ANY WAY WHAT THEIR INTUITIONS MAY BE. If there is any heart quality at all resident in the experience of an individual it could only be very vaguely conveyed to another. If there is any REALITY it can only be to the individual for himself. Please do not think that I am being sarcastic when I say: As far as I know there are no TANGIBLE proofs to be offered. If someone came up to you and said "I AM A MAHATMA and I come BECAUSE YOU INVOKED ME." Would you believe? What tests or proofs could you employ ? AND, WHAT TRUE MAHATMA HAS THE TIME TO DEVOTE TO AN INDIVIDUAL'S DESIRE ? Is anything you or I might want personally in the way of proof going to change the nature of the world's progress. I think it is for this reason that it is written: First deserve, then desire. - But who or what determines the level of our "deserving." I you carefully read the pages of MAHATMA LETTERS you will see depicted there all levels of interest and desire and the responses that they evoked. The sum and substance is either to drive the aspirant to despair of ever "succeeding;" or of developing the monumental patience that is the lot of an immortal being waling the many paths of existence and using many bodies, but always holding in his heart the hope of achieving a level where the SPIRITUAL will become an object of his mental perception. HPB has described the ways and disciplines needed in her articles that deal with occultism. "Those who "say" don't know. Those who "know" don't say." A very old axiom. HPBs with visible psychic control over the lower forces of nature do not occur daily that we can contact them. And She was doubted and persecuted. Why should anyone come forward for me or for you and offer themselves to our skepticism ? Don't you see the way you phrase your question presents an insurmountable barrier. "When the disciple is READY, the Teacher will be found to be ready also." What do these cryptic statements mean ? Not conundrums to drive us crazy, but to enable us to transfer our thinking from this material plane of effects to the immaterial . And that is truly terra incognita for most of us. =================================== The reason that I am bewildered by this subject, along with the last 25 years of a century scenario, is that, as theosophists, we are asked to satisfy ourselves as to the existence of the great ones, and their involvement with the theosophical philosophy as it has come down to us through HPB. Now we have in the above quote, HPB herself saying, more will be forthcoming by one of these remarkable beings in the 20th Century. This narrows the possibilities to a precious few. Either HPB had it wrong, or was toying with posterity. Or, the conditions during the last hundred years of our spiritual development did not warrant such a visit. Or, perhaps, more sadly yet, one HAS been and we knew him not! DALLAS : offers the thoughts AND THAT IS QUITE POSSIBLE. See for instance the chapter in THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV called THE GRAND INQUISITOR. - Dostoevsky - Jesus returns to Seville during an Auto da Fe" - you can guess the rest. Now I am not going to worry if we missed the boat and did or did not enjoy the presence (known or unknown) of one of the GREAT ONES. It is better to consider that They and HPB are around us all the time, invisibly, and that when we lend our shoulder to the Theosophical "wheel" we invoke their silent but potent blessing on our efforts. ======================================== How many on these lists are familiar enough with other contemporary theosophical systems to say with certainty that another installment of the ancient wisdom is not now amongst us. IF IT IS IT WILL DOVETAIL WITH THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE AND NOT WITH ANYONE'S IMAGINATION OR FANCY. IT WILL POINT TO THE CONTINUATION OF THE WORK OF THE MOVEMENT AND NOT TO SOME DEAD-END. FOR THIS TO BE USED WE HAVE TO KNOW THAT WHICH WAS ALREADY MADE AVAILABLE. IF WE DO NOT KNOW, THEN INDEED WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO "RECOGNIZE." We create or demolish our own "barriers" all the time. A final thought. For those of us who have a deep intuitional resonance with our own theosophy, a certain lightness of being, as we come near to the majestic vistas revealed in HPb's legacy. It seems natural, to expect the same ongoing evolutionary unfoldment that is part of the cosmos itself. I for one would be very surprised if her more than ample hint, had not been filled. That would leave the oversight as usual, once again, on us. DEAR LOUIS -- YOU ARE THINKING AND SAYING THIS AS I MIGHT TO MYSELF. WE HAVE BOTH BEEN ON THE SAME PATH - SO LET US TAKE COMFORT THAT "ALL IS PROVIDED FOR." We need only TRY and DO OUR BEST. And that is all I can think of saying D. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 22:37:08 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA12360 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:31:39 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990324043021.22751.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World New Web Site: Robert Crosbie, United Lodge of Theosophists & Their Esoteric Scho Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:30:20 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com NEW Critical Web Site on Robert Crosbie, United Lodge of Theosophists & their Esoteric School Finally I've created web site in rough draft at http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/Links.html for my postings on above subject. As I do rough draft of each section I'll post them to Theos-Talk & then post to web site. At this juncture I'll offer to post on same site any legitimate criticisms of my postings. Readers will be better informed. Any one interested in posting their comments & criticisms please email to me stating you want your comments on my site. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 22:52:26 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA13869 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:49:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <8459257d.36f86c87@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:39:35 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Hassle on History Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/23/99 4:21:46 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >Caldwell/Graye wrote: >> What in your opinion was the purpose of the original esoteric section >as founded >> by Madame B.? > > My opinion is that the Esoteric Section was formed because there were >a number of members who wanted to turn Theosophy into a religion, and the >Mahatmas, wanting nothing like this for the TS, gave instructions to >create a separate organization for them. That's a completely unfounded opinion. Even if there were students who wanted to form a religion out of theosophy, the Masters would never have condoned such an activity. It is much more likely that the Esoteric Section was originally founded by HPB to satisfy those advanced students who were asking the type of deep questions such as those answered by her in the Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge. The Esoteric Section was most probably designed for advanced students who wanted to understand the deeper teachings that could prepare them for adeptship based on the teachings HPB said would be in her proposed volume 3 and 4 of the Secret Doctrine. It's obvious that most general members of the TS were perfectly satisfied with the superficial teachings that could be given second hand through interpretations by the so called "student teachers" who organized and ran the meetings and lectures at the various TS meeting halls throughout the world. Most of these exoteric teachings were based on the original writings of HPB as well as WQJ, RC, CT, AB, etc.--none of whom were Adepts of the same caliber of HPB or the Mahatmas. It is obvious that any teachings that were supposedly to be given in the "Esoteric Section" would be those teachings that were not previously ("exoterically") published. As far as my understanding of the meaning of "esoteric teachings"... They were supposedly to be given only to those students who were avowed Chelas. Making a religion out of them could be considered simply as seeing theosophy as a "religious science and a scientific religion," and would have no relationship with forming an "organized religion" as such. LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 23 23:52:07 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA19921 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:49:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:47:10 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Response to Peter Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/23/99 6:04:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, mark@withoutwalls.com writes: << I just got back from a vacation on Globe E. They don't have Internet yet, they have the "World Wide Weltanschung," oh, ... and 7 Eleven. ;-p -- Mark >> It is the wit and humor of my fellow theosophists, that keep me grounded. Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 24 10:23:04 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA11146 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:11:46 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <199903241610.SAA29008@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> From: "mika perala" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:22:36 +0000 Subject: Theos-World Re: weird stuff Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199903230427.WAA21960@pippin.imagiware.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01d) Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > > From: "Peter Merriott" > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:33:50 -0000 > Subject: RE: Theos-World Weird stuff > > Hi Doss, > > Can I add to what you have said. > > Most email software and browsers offer a choice of formats as to how to send > a message - either "Plain Text" or "Rich Text". "Rich Text" uses HTML. If > your browser receives in either mode it simply gives you a nice page to read > whichever way it was sent originally. > > However some browsers / email packages only have "Plain Text" capability. So > when this type of browser receives a "Rich Text" message it shows all the > HTML codes. > > There are two solutions to this. > 1) Get a better email / browser package that can cope with both types of > messages. This isn't a realistic option if you use your email facility at > work / Universtiy etc. > > 2) Those of us who can choose which format to use should aim to send > messages in "Plain Text" to a List or Newsgroup to help those who only have > this capability. > > Hope this helps > Tahnks for the advice. I'll try to find something in the options of my Pegasus-mailprogram to handle this. Mika perala lurk -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 24 11:13:05 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA16782 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:59:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990324165824.5001.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Wane Kell's "Robert Crosbie" Biographical Notes Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:58:23 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Wane Kell, ULT historian & Crosbie apologist, has written rather long biographical sketch of ULT founder. It's available on WWW--- R O B E R T C R O S B I E The Friendly Philosopher 1849-1919 BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES Compiled by Wane Kell Part I of Wane Kell's bio notes on Mr Crosbie http://theosophy.com/theos-talk/tt02353.html Part II of Wane Kell's bio notes on Mr Crosbie http://theosophy.com/theos-talk/tt02354.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 25 10:42:03 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA31000 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:40:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990325163511.18432.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Mr Crosbie's Revisionistic Account of His Association with Mrs Tingley---Part I Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:35:09 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mr Robert Crosbie in his AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL NOTE (written sometime between 1904 and 1919 *after* he was expelled from the Point Loma Theosophical Society) gave an account of his association with Mrs Katherine Tingley. This account contains a number of erroneous & misleading statements. In Part I, I'll give Mr Crosbie's own words. In Part II, I'll quote various excerpts from Mr Crosbie's account & point out his misstatements by comparing with other writings including his own. Part I---Mr Crosbie's Revisionistic Account "Two or three of the New York members--notably E.T.Hargrove and E.A.Neresheimer--obtained possession of Mr. Judge's keys and went through his private papers; in these they found reference to a certain "chela," whom Neresheimer determined to be Mrs. Tingley whom he had known for about a year, and whom he had brought to Judge's notice. The idea being in their minds that there must of necessity be an occult successor, and concurring in the opinion that Mrs. T. was indicated, they sent out a circular to the E.S. that Judge had appointed her as such. The minds of all, being in the receptive condition I have mentioned, accepted everything as stated by the few in New York. The attitude assumed by Mrs. T. soon began to estrange those members who were brought in close touch with her in New York, but those at a distance had no inkling of the true state of affairs and kept on in full confidence. Those who found that they had made a mistake in the first place in foisting Mrs. T. upon the organization were in too doubtful a position to attempt explanations; one of them only -- Mr. Neresheimer --(who had introduced her to Judge)-- remaining her supporter...his support was sufficient to offset any withdrawal of the others in New York." "Mrs. T. took advantage of the situation, and most plausibly and shrewdly strengthened her position for two years after her advent, then formed the "UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD" with herself as absolute dictator; carrying with her by far the greater number of the members throughout the country. A year later she went to Point Loma and established the institution there." "As to my part in it--I was in Boston, and saw no reason to doubt the statements of those in N.Y. whom I believed to be sincere and of good training and judgment. I should have known by other means the true state of affairs...when Judge passed out of life, I lost touch with him; doubtless I relied on him too much, and had not exercised my own intuition; from later events my comprehension is, that this loss of touch was purposely done in order that I might strengthen my weakness in that direction. I went to Point Loma at Mrs. T's urgent request to assist in the proposed work, and was there two years, helping to prepare the way for the expected developments, before I began to get back the touch I had lost. I am prone to excuse inconsistencies and deviations in others, so that although I had begun to doubt, and to see, it was more than a year afterwards I saw so clearly and unmistakably that I took occasion to tell Mrs. T. the facts as I saw them, and to state my intention to withdraw from all connection with her. She tried of course in every way to change my determination, but finding me unchangeable, she let me go, and as I afterwards heard, gave out that she had sent me away for 'bad conduct'--just what I do not know." Part II---to follow ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Thu Mar 25 21:27:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id VAA31819 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:03:25 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990326030202.3098.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Commentary on Mr Crosbie's Post-1904 Account of his Association with Mrs Tingley Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:02:00 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Part II---Commentary on Mr Crosbie's Post-1904 Account of his Association with Mrs Tingley Mr Crosbie wrote---- "As to my part in it [the Tingley 1896-99 affair]--I was in Boston, and saw no reason to doubt the [positive] statements [about Mrs Tingley] of those [T.S. members] in N.Y. whom I believed to be sincere and of good training and judgment. I should have known by other means the true state of affairs...." "The attitude assumed by Mrs. T[ingley] soon began to estrange those members who were brought in close touch with her in New York, but those at a distance had no inkling of the true state of affairs and kept on in full confidence...." The impression which Mr Crosbie apparently wanted to convey in these two statements is that he was *not* in "close touch" with Mrs Tingley in New York. Since he lived "at a distance" in Boston, Mr Crosbie (so he contended) "had no inkling of the true state of affairs and kept on in full confidence [with Mrs Tingley]." I've previously quoted several documents that appear to negate Mr Crosbie's revisionist account. These documents show that Mr Crosbie personally knew Mrs Tingley, worked closely with her, wrote warm, devoted & personal letters to her, and vigorously defended Mrs Tingley in 1898 against the attacks of Hargrove, Spencer and Griscom, Jr. There is more evidence to negate Mr Crosbie's post-1904 assertions of not "being in close touch" with Mrs Tingley during the years 1896-1899. The entire evidence will be included in my finished paper. I quote only selected items at this point. (1) In 1898 Mr Crosbie in a letter to Mrs Tingley recounted his first personal encounter with her in these words--- "I remember that the day I first saw you, I recognized you as the O[outer] H[ead] without hint or instruction as such, and in spite of the fact that I was not looking for a woman's form in that connection. During that day you and I were the only ones in the E.S. room, and you came and sat down at the table at which I was working, and told me a great many things, saying that you did not know why you told me these things but that it was doubtless for some purpose. . . ." This memorable day in Mr Crosbie's life must have occurred *prior* to the public disclosure of Mrs Tingley as the Outer Head of the E.S. Preliminary study leads me to conclude that public disclosure of Mrs Tingley's status occurred around May 17 or 18, 1896. (New York Tribute, May 18, 1896). Also disclosure of Mrs Tingley's status as Outer Head was published in "Theosophy" magazine, June 1896, pp 67-69. (2) On June 7, 1896, Mrs Tingley and the other members of her worldwide Crusade were at a meeting held in Boston at the Tremont Theatre. "Mr. Robert Crosbie, President of Boston T.S., presided at the meeting, and introduced as the first speaker Mr. A.H. Spencer. . . .[Later after several other speakers had given their lectures, ] Mrs. Tingley followed with a paper on the 'Blessings of Theosophy.' This was listened to with the utmost attention, and evoked great applause." "Theosophy" magazine, July, 1896, p 127. (3) The next year, on May 22, 1897, Mr Crosbie and a few other E.S. members took pledges of "unquestioning loyalty, devotion and obedience" to Mrs Tingley. Did Mr Crosbie take such a momentous oath to a person about whom he knew so very little? The pledge reads---- "I . . . recognizing the person called Purple [Mrs Tingley] as being the agent of the Master I serve . . . do hereby unreservedly pledge myself, by my Higher Self, to unquestioning loyalty, devotion and obedience to her and to her support and defence as such agent, under any and all circumstances and conditions to the extent of my available means, utmost exertion, and with my life if need be. . . . So Help me my Higher Self. (Signed) Robert Crosbie Witness my hand, this 22d day of May, Eighteen hundred and Ninety-seven." (4) In Mr Crosbie's later revisionist account, he wrote--- "Mrs. T[ingley] took advantage of the situation, and most plausibly and shrewdly strengthened her position for two years after her advent, then formed [in early 1898] the "UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD" with herself as absolute dictator; carrying with her by far the greater number of the members throughout the country." Mr Crosbie conveniently forgot to mention a number of important facts which would have thrown a different light on this portion of his post-1904 account. Dr Emmett A. Greenwalt in "California Utopia: Point Loma: 1897-1942," 2nd revised ed. (1978) described an important meeting that occurred in connection with the new society "UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD." "Upon hearing of a plot to challenge her control of the Society, Katherine Tingley decided not only to defeat her foes in the convention, but to make it impossible for such a situation to arise again. Her version of how she came to rewrite the Society's constitution is interesting. . . . "In mid-January, 1898, about a month before the convention, she called in ten influential members who had shown no signs of wavering, and revealed the constitution in its entirety. It was received, as she had hoped, in a devotional spirit. 'Never shall I forget the solemnity of that night...,' wrote Fussell, one of the faithful. 'Although the Constitution of the Universal Brotherhood may appear ironbound, yet all who know our Leader will realize that her one desire is to give freedom to all and to aid the progress of the work.' " Besides J.H. Fussell, who were the other nine "faithful" members who attended this important & private meeting at Mrs Tingley's home? Last year in his article on "Colonel Arthur L. Conger, " Alan Donant revealed more names of the persons at this January 1898 meeting--- "...On January 13, 1898, a constitution for a new theosophical organization was presented to a meeting of prominent Theosophists at the home of Katherine Tingley. The new organization was called The Universal Theosophical Brotherhood, which a month later was changed to the Universal Brotherhood. Among the signators were Basil Crump, E. August Neresheimer, Robert Crosbie, Joseph H. Fussell, and Arthur L. Conger, Jr.. . . .[From the original minutes of the January 13, 1898, meeting and the Resolutions, Preamble and Constitution of the Universal Brotherhood adopted at the Chicago Convention of February 18, 1898.]" Mr Donant's account discloses that Mr Robert Crosbie was one of the prominent Theosophists invited to Katherine Tingley's home. This event shows Mr Crosbie's personal involvement with Mrs Tingley as well as Mr Crosbie's intimate knowledge of Mrs Tingley's activities. Some twelve days later, back in Boston, Mr Crosbie wrote the following devoted letter to Mrs Tingley--- "ROBERT CROSBIE 24 MOUNT VERNON STREET BOSTON, MASS. Feb. 2d 1898 Dear P[Purple, Mrs Tingley]: I received your good long letter of Sunday, it was a good one indeed. . . . I will arrange a "Friends in Counsel" for Boston, and have them get to work along the lines suggested and hope to start on Saturday. . . . I remember that the day I first saw you, I recognized you as the O[outer] H[ead] without hint or instruction as such, and in spite of the fact that I was not looking for a woman's form in that connection. During that day you and I were the only ones in the E.S. room, and you came and sat down at the table at which I was working, and told me a great many things, saying that you did not know why you told me these things but that it was doubtless for some purpose. . . . All is well here. We are steady, confident and patient, yet ready to act at the word. With heart's love yours as ever Robert" The Chicago Convention of the Theosophical Society was held some sixteen days later (February 18, 1898). At this convention most of the members in attendance voted to adopt the new constitution. As Mr Crosbie related in his revisionist account, Mrs Tingley carried "with her by far the greater number of the members throughout the country." She certainly "carried" Mr Crosbie who became one of her staunchest defenders in the months ahead. On the other hand, Mr Hargrove, Mr Spencer, Mr Griscom, Jr. & a small minority "bolted" the convention. Finally they went to court contending that what had transpired at the convention was illegal. In the April, 1898 (first) issue of "The Searchlight", a pro-Tingley magazine, Mr Crosbie defended Mrs Tingley in an article "The Sifting Process". In the course of the article he attacked the motives of the "bolters"---linking them to "the dark forces of disintegration." Mr Crosbie's relevant words are--- "The third great Leader, Katherine A. Tingley, established [February 1898] the organization called 'Universal Brotherhood,' or 'The Brotherhood of Humanity,'. . . . It is not difficult to see what 'An Ark of Safety' the Universal Brotherhood is for the work, and to realize the wisdom of the Leader [Mrs Tingley] in sounding the key-note, when it was not generally known that the dark forces of disintegration were so close to us, and which aroused us to action, and disclosed the imminent danger. . . . Foolish are those who are attempting by legal technicalities to hinder the work. . . who never were workers in the true sense; for all who know the Leader [Mrs Tingley] best, who have worked the closest to her, are the ones who are most energetic in carrying on the work at Headquarters, and the most unswerving in their allegiance to the Leader, and certainly their judgment is worthy of the most weighty consideration, for no others are so well qualified to judge. Some names, like those of Messrs. Spencer and Griscom, Jr., have appeared in print so often in connection with the New York activities, that it might be supposed that they were workers of the Headquarters' staff, and being now connected with the disintegrating faction, it might appear that the staff was weakened by their disaffection, but they were not part of the staff, nor were they workers in the true sense, especially since the return of the Leader [Mrs Tingley] from the Crusade [around the world]. . . . It seems necessary to call attention to this point, for the part taken by them in the attack upon our Leader, (for no matter how much it is disguised, that is the real issue), might lead members to suppose that they were very essential to the work, and person whose opinions might appear to be of more weight than they really are. . . ." Compare these statements with Mr Crosbie's revisionist account quoted at the beginning of this posting. In my next email I'll analyze more misleading statements found in Mr Crosbie's post-1904 account of his association with Mrs Tingley. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 26 09:48:06 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA28749 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:40:20 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Peter Merriott" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Responses to Peter Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:34:15 -0000 Message-ID: <000001be779e$1afbcbc0$785695c1@et.u-net.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > >>My understanding of Theosophy is that the Law Karma & Reincarnation is > an impersonal Law. I don't have a sense that people are reborn on the > basis that they believe they have 7 or more lifetimes ahead of them. I > would also want to question the phrase - "I know this attitude is self > defeating." > Peter, we seem to be talking apples and oranges here. > I was talking about liberation in a single lifetime, not > the doctrines of reincarnation and karma. These are > two separte things. Jerry: I am quite clear what we are talking about. But lets recap. In support of your "liberation in a single lifetime" view you have constantly maintained that any view opposed to this is essentially negative in attitude. In this light you proposed that for Theosophists to believe there were future lives ahead of them was "self defeating" and "therefore a rebirth will be a selfulling prophecy." (Your words) I showed that this argument does not stand up to examination. There is nothing to suggest that the Law of Karma & reincarnation can be overcome by 'personal beliefs' in the way you suggest. You reply (above) that the Law of Karma & Reincarnation has nothing to do with a discussion about achieving Liberation in one birth (which involves disolving personal karma and breaking the wheel of rebirth, according to your previous posts). I find this surprising, to put it mildly. > >>> After all, people are reborn even though they don't believe > in reincarnation, aren't they? There is no self fulfilling prophecy > there, unfortunately.>> > > But the "person" who either believes or doesn't believe > is not reincarnated. Only the Higher Self, which Knows > and doesn't have to believe. Karma, as cause and effect, > works across planes as well as within them. Here you argue against yourself. Either personal beliefs have an effect as a self fulfilling prophecy or they don't. However, here you come nearer the Theosophical perspective which states that impersonal spiritual Laws govern all manifestation and spritual 'progress' and not the beliefs of the personality. The latter can work with or against but not govern those Laws. > The mountain climber is not an > applicable simile here, because spiritual advancement > is linked to imagination and self-image which can > be changed in an instant. The spiritual mountain > climber must clearly visualize that he/she is already > at the top of the hill. On the contrary, I think it is a very pertinent analogy of the journey because we can use it to contrast these two approaches. Let's first acknowledge the spiritual path is essentially an 'inner journey' and the mountain climb is only an analogy for this 'inner path'. One approach sees the mountainer taking stock of his position and the journey ahead of him and making a start from where he is, right now. In the other approach, his colleague sits himself down and 'imagines' that he is at the goal already. Which of these is the more likely to arrive at the summit? The one who actually travels the path, long though it is, or the one who imagines he is at the top? I can see the picture some weeks later when the first traveller is nearing his goal. "Only a few more days now." he says to himself. Meanwhile his colleague, still at their starting place below, shouts up to him - "You'll never get there with that attitude you know!" Where the analogy is weak is that it does not include that the essence of the path is to help each other on the way. Include this and it will do, I think. > >>> ... he is likely to tell us that if those guides indicate that > the journey ahead will take many days it is foolish > to pretend we can make it in just one. >> > > Agreed, but these "guides" have clearly said that it can > be done in one dy. I think we are going round in circles here. This is not what HPB and the Masters have "clearly said" at all, as I have endeavoured to point out to you in each post. It is a rare exception, and even then we don't know what HPB was refering to by "exception". If you know of somewhere in the Teachings of Theosophy where it is stated that our Karma can be disolved by forgiving ourselves and that we can reach the 'goal' by imagining we are already there - then please bring it forward to this group. If some of the other major religions say it, that's fine. We each must choose which path to follow. But keep in mind, while HPB and the Masters affirmed the esoteric doctrines behind all religions, they in no way endorsed *every* view held by such religions. HPB affirms the esoteric nature of Christianity but doesn't suggest believing this is our only life after which we may go to Heaven, in the Christian sense of the word. > we soon find that the goal is the Path itself > and that there is no "goal" to get to. When that idea > really hits home, we are already there. >From the Theosophical Perspective our essential nature is the Divine Self, itself a radiation of the Absolute. So yes, in 'essence' we are already THAT. Yet that does not do away with the evolutionary goals required of the 'spiritual pilgrim' to acquire individual Consciousness (Manas) and blend that consciousness with the Higher Self (Atma-Buddhi) - to become, "through self-induced and self-devised efforts (checked by its Karma).." a Dhyani Buddha. Is this not the 3rd Fundamental Proposition of the Secret Doctrine? I qoute this passage in full below. Presumably this is one of the views you regard as self defeating. I find it quite inspiring. " the Secret Doctrine teaches:-- (c) The fundamental identity of all Souls with the Universal Over-Soul, the latter being itself an aspect of the Unknown Root; and the obligatory pilgrimage for every Soul -- a spark of the former -- through the Cycle of Incarnation (or "Necessity") in accordance with Cyclic and Karmic law, during the whole term. In other words, no purely spiritual Buddhi (divine Soul) can have an independent (conscious) existence before the spark which issued from the pure Essence of the Universal Sixth principle, -- or the OVER-SOUL, -- has (a) passed through every elemental form of the phenomenal world of that Manvantara, and (b) acquired individuality, first by natural impulse, and then by self-induced and self-devised efforts (checked by its Karma), thus ascending through all the degrees of intelligence, from the lowest to the highest Manas, from mineral and plant, up to the holiest archangel (Dhyani-Buddha). The pivotal doctrine of the Esoteric philosophy admits no privileges or special gifts in man, save those won by his own Ego through personal effort and merit throughout a long series of metempsychoses and reincarnations." (Secret Doctrine, vol 1, p17) > >>At worst we will not properly prepare ourselves for the journey ahead > and risk breaking ourselves in the attempt.<< > > This attitude, while emminantly practical, will never get us > anywhere. How much "preparation" do we still need if we > have already been reincarnating millions of lifetimes? No doubt if we only have to 'imagine' we are at the goal we will not need to prepare for the journey. But ask the following, does the writer who has written many books not prepare and plan his next work? Does the seasoned athlete not train for his next race? Does the accomplished musician not practice for his next concert. Does the experienced mountain climber not prepare for his next climb and plan each stage? Preparation, implementation, reflection, gestation and then another cycle - these are all necessary and usefull stages of the cycle of activity, occuring over and over again. Obviously there is a balance in this. To 'rush in' without preparation or to endlessly prepare (or just imagine) and not 'do' are both imbalanced. But Theosophy teaches none of these, as far as I can tell. It encourages Right Knowledge and Right Effort based on Right Motive - in the present and not at some future date. But let me ask you - putting aside the notion of disolving our own Karma by simply forgiving ourselves - if we only have to 'imagine' we are at the goal, does that mean you will achieve this goal today, right now, if you sit down and so 'imagine' it? Or is Study, Preparation and regular Practice also required in this endeavour of visualization? Once acknowledge the need for *any one* of these three then we are back to the idea of a path to travel, a path that takes time and involves the development of the Individual Consciousness and certain faculites within us. Then arises the question of "What is Right Knowledge which leads to Right Effort?" This is something each of us has to settle for ourselves. My own view is that Theosophy provides some real and profound answers to these questions about our journey. > >>With wrong knowledge we defeat ourselves before we have even started > along the way.>> > > But what, exactly, is wrong knowledge? In my view: Believing we will reach the goal simply by imagining we are there already. You put the view that HPB was talking 'head stuff' when she pointed out the Four Paths are linked with the Seven Stages of Initiation. Instead you propose the real criterion of where we are in these stages is the measure of our Desire for liberation. > The ONLY way to know if we are somewhere in the seven > required lifetimes is to determine our desire for > liberation. Without such a strong desire, we almost > surely aren't. To 'desire' and to 'be able' are not identical. To desire to be a world champion chess player is no gaurantee that one will even learn how to play the game, let alone get to the finals. Desire supplies energy, but not intelligence, knowledge and ability. I will stick with HPB on this one. Jerry, please offer something from the Teachings of Theosophy to support your view if you reply again on this topic. I think it would help. Regards Peter -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 26 12:28:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA15611 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:09:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <199903261808.UAA17820@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> From: "mika perala" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:20:29 +0000 Subject: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #795 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199903231500.JAA06999@pippin.imagiware.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01d) Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Rich wrote: > > I remember reading somewhere in Theosophical literature that this "last > quarter century effort" thing got started with Tsong-Kha-Pa (a fully Buddha > incarnation) in the last quarter of the 14th century. I`ve heard about this too, but it makes me wonder what kind of calendar they had at Tsong-Kha-Pa`s time in Tibet? Or did he had westerners in his mind when he gave the promise for the efforts? Beats me. mika perala -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Fri Mar 26 12:33:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA16711 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:16:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990326181524.17129.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World More Web pages on Robert Crosbie Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:15:24 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I've updated my web pages on "Robert Crosbie, Founder of the United Lodge of Theosophists." I've added photo of Mr Crosbie & added links to Mr Kell's bio on Crosbie. http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/Links.html I've also added new web page on "Mr Crosbie's Revisionist Account of His Association with Mrs Tingley." Article includes Mr Crosbie's account & my preliminary analysis of his statements. http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/revisionist.htm Two ULT students have emailed me this morning thanking me for this article. But they said they're stunned by all of this. None of this information was available from ULT sources, they report. Another five or six ULT assoiates have privately written me deploring everything I have written on the subject but not one of them brought forth any evidence or arguments to counter what I've written. I'll continue to research and write more on subject. Articles will be posted on theos-talk & then on web site. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 27 04:19:02 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id EAA08937 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 04:12:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #795 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 03:09:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be7842$4520ba60$aa0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199903261808.UAA17820@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 27th Dear Mika: This cycle is keyed to our present calendar used every day and not to any other. Several people have written articles on this subject. I can give you a list of references so that you can look them up. I can send you a list of references, but I do not have much to display to send to you. If you can receive an "attachment" then I can send this on to you. Let me know. Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of mika perala Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 12:20 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #795 Rich wrote: > > I remember reading somewhere in Theosophical literature that this "last > quarter century effort" thing got started with Tsong-Kha-Pa (a fully Buddha > incarnation) in the last quarter of the 14th century. I`ve heard about this too, but it makes me wonder what kind of calendar they had at Tsong-Kha-Pa`s time in Tibet? Or did he had westerners in his mind when he gave the promise for the efforts? Beats me. mika perala -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 27 05:34:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id FAA20593 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 05:25:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Dal & Val TenBroeck" Subject: Theos-World More Quotations of importance from Theosophical Texts Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 04:19:50 -0800 Message-ID: <000101be784c$1dfe3840$890e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 27th 1999 What is the nature of Theosophical study and work ? "When anyone is regularly accepted as a chela on probation the first and only order he receives is to work unselfishly for humanity - sometimes aiding and aided by some other chela - while striving to get rid of the personal idea" PATH Vol. 3, p. 107 "The 'esoteric work' does not appear, and cannot appear because it is between the individual member and a "source" which reaches him only through his own inner consciousness." PO 55 "Experience in Occultism and in trying to live the "higher Life" has conclusively shown...that we are placed by Karma wherever we may be, and that we cannot gain by trying to "alter mere surroundings," we thus run away from the very test given us for the object in view." PO 61 "We postulate that the good of others is our own, since we are a part of the integral whole." OP 73 Masters define Their duty and work: "Our prime duty [is] of gaining knowledge and disseminating through all available channels such fragments as mankind in the mass may be ready to assimilate." Mahat. Letters p. 385 "The first lesson taught in Esoteric philosophy is that the incognizable Cause does not put forth evolution whether conscious or unconscious, but only exhibits periodically different aspects of itself to the perception of finite Minds. [That which is finite cannot be "perfect."] Now the collective Mind of the Universe-composed of various and numberless Hosts of Creative Powers, however infinite in manifested Time, is itself finite when contrasted with the unborn and undecaying Space in its supreme essential aspect. Therefore there are inferior Beings among those Hosts, but there never were any "devils," or "disembodied angels," for the simple reason that they are all governed by Law. The Asuras who incarnated...followed in this a law as implacable as any other." SD II 487 "A "thing" can only exist through its opposite." SD II 490 "The one process is to inquire into and attempt to understand the law of spiritual unity." HD 82 "To are, to will, to achieve and keep silent, is the motto of the true Occultist." HPB Art. 511 "[It is] a law inexorable, by which man lifts himself by degrees from the state of a beast to the glory of a God...The student who desires to enter upon Occultism takes some of nature's privileges into his own hands, by that very wish, and, soon discovers that experiences come to him with double quick rapidity...he is under a new and swifter law of development." HPB Articles I p. 76-7 These quotes are a few that might be mulled over and considered as we proceed all together on the conjoint path of progress. If there are observations and comments on these they will be useful for all to see. Best wishes, Dallas ======================== -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 27 07:33:55 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA26125 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:31:21 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "Arnaldo Sisson Filho" To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Causes & Effects Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:33:47 -0300 Message-ID: <01be7856$75d58280$LocalHost@zaz.bsb.zaz.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Jerry, That is not definetively my area of studies, but I will risk some comments. >>>Could you give us some examples of these "effects without causes?" I >find that a fascinating idea. >Louis>> > >In modern chaos theory, there are some systems >that can go from order into chaos, or rather into >a chaotic basin where it develops new behaviors. >It turns out that there is no cause-effect relationship >between such a system's behavior before it enters a >basin and after. The fact that we may not be able to see/detect the cause-effect relationship by no means is equal to say that there is no cause-effect relationship at all. Obviously. > >On the other hand, the now-famous butterfly >effect shows that most complex systems deal >with too many causes rendering them entirely >unpredictable. > >And of course the famous Bell theorem which >shows how some local effects can be produced >from non-local causes, although how this is done >is still a mystery. The universe is full of mysteries, to our minds at least, to be sure. To another much more powerful/mature mind (I am using the word "mind" in the sense of "chitta", and not just in the sense of "manas") several of those mysteries may be already understood. > >Chaotic systems are sensitive to initial conditions >and sometimes these initial conditions can be so >tiny as to be unmeasurable, thus effects are >unpredictable and causes are insignificant. Again, those tiny causes may be unmeasurable and the effects may be unpredictable BY US or by any means that we today know. But to say that there is no cause/effect relationship is quite another story. > >Jerry S. > Jerry, I am glad you are sharing with us a different point of view. To make an orthodoxy out of theosophy, to say that theosophy is what dearest HPB wrote (or the Masters, or Judge, or anyone else) is a sad thing to do to the cause of real Theosophy, which is Altruism. The concrete manifestation of Theosophy is not a certain collection of doctrines/beliefs, however important and true those doctrines/beliefs may be, but its objective expression is said to be a life "... thoroughly impregnated with its spirit - the spirit of mutual tolerance, charity and love." (Letters from Masters of the Wisdom, 2nd Series, letter 82, p. 157) So, even when we do not agree, the important thing is to be able to brotherly exchange our different points of view. Of course, this is equaly true in the case of our brothers of the theosophy-as-an-orthodoxy club. They also have their rights to see things in a different light. But none of us have the right to be intolerant with the others, unless we do not care about losing the right of being considered Theosophists. This holds true as much in a theosophical list, as in any theosophical association. Wishing you the Best, and praying that the Wise Brothers most of us believe to exist, (and hopefully some of us know to exist) help us to make our theosophical lists and associations (all of them) places where at least mutual tolerance, if not charity and love may reign, yours in the search after Truth, Arnaldo. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 27 09:18:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA32439 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:03:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:03:14 -0600 (CST) From: M K Ramadoss To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Causes & Effects In-Reply-To: <01be7856$75d58280$LocalHost@zaz.bsb.zaz.com.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Arnaldo Sisson Filho wrote: > Jerry, I am glad you are sharing with us a different point of view. To make > an orthodoxy out of theosophy, to say that theosophy is what dearest HPB > wrote (or the Masters, or Judge, or anyone else) is a sad thing to do to the > cause of real Theosophy, which is Altruism. The concrete manifestation of > Theosophy is not a certain collection of doctrines/beliefs, however > important and true those doctrines/beliefs may be, but its objective > expression is said to be a life "... thoroughly impregnated with its > spirit - the spirit of mutual tolerance, charity and love." (Letters from > Masters of the Wisdom, 2nd Series, letter 82, p. 157) Good that you posted the above quote. In the presence of all dazzling details of anthropogenesis and cosmogenesis and all the song and dance added on, may be we should repost the above frequently because, the real fundamental objective as seen by the Founders should never be lost sight of. It is like the north star by which a sailor navigates safely to the destination. When I see some of the "theosophical" publications with a high level of fog index, and the talk by some about the "hidden" objects of TS, one wonders whether the waning interest as shown by membership numbers may be due to our forgetting the main objective. Sinnett was repeatedly told by the Founders that "The Chiefs want a Universal Brotherhood (sisterhood)". Apparently the problem of focus/object existed then as it seems to exist today. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sat Mar 27 12:48:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id MAA16455 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:48:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990327184734.3887.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Mr Crosbie's Knowledge of Mrs Tingley was not based on Second Hand Reports Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:47:33 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In 1896 Mr Crosbie's knowledge of Mrs Tingley was not based solely on second hand reports from leading theosophists in New York but on his own personal experiences with Mrs Tingley. Regarding the death of W Q Judge & the esoteric succession of Mrs Katherine Tingley, Mr Robert Crosbie in his "Autobiographical Note" observed--- ". . . E.T.Hargrove and E.A.Neresheimer . . . went through his [W Q Judge's] private papers; in these they found reference to a certain "chela," whom Neresheimer determined to be Mrs. Tingley. . . . The idea being in their minds that there must of necessity be an occult successor, and concurring in the opinion that Mrs. T. was indicated, they sent out a circular to the E.S. that Judge had appointed her as such. The minds of all, being in the receptive condition I have mentioned, accepted everything as stated by the few in New York." In reading his account, one should note that Robert Crosbie's mind was "in the [same] receptive condition" too; he also believed "that there must of necessity be an occult successor." The documents below illustrate this point. In the last sentence of above account, Mr Crosbie implies that because he lived in Boston, he too "accepted everything as stated [about Mrs Tingley] by the few in New York." But Mr Crosbie's own attitude, mindset & involvement in all of this can be found in what *he wrote soon after W Q Judge's death*. In the May 1896 issue of THEOSOPHY, Mr Crosbie penned these words about Mr Judge *as well as about the coming "great messenger"*. "A FRIEND OF OLD TIME AND OF THE FUTURE" "The first Theosophical treatise that I read was his [Judge's] Epitome of Theosophy; my first meeting with him changed the whole current of my life. I trusted him then as I trust him now and all those whom he trusted...trust is the bond that binds, that makes the strength of the Movement, for it is of the heart. And this trust he called forth was not allowed to remain a blind trust, for as time went on, as the energy, steadfastness and devotion of the student became more marked, the "real W.Q.J." was more and more revealed, until that power radiated through him became in each an ever present help in the work. As such, it remains to-day, a living power in each heart that trusted him, a focus for the Rays of the coming "great messenger." . . . . The lines have been laid down for us by H.P.B., W.Q.J., and Masters, and we can take again our watchword, that which he gave us at the passing of H.P.B., 'Work, watch and wait.' We will not have long to wait." What is Mr Crosbie referring to in the last sentence of the article---"We will not have long to wait"? I would suggest that Mr Crosbie believed that he & the American theosophists would not have long to wait before the coming "great messenger" appeared. This, no doubt, was Mrs Tingley. In the same issue of THEOSOPHY, Mr Claude Falls Wright, a theosophist who had been close to W Judge, wrote on a similar theme--- ". . . While the spiritual energy he [Mr Judge] exercised was at his death distributed among all members and workers, nevertheless his inner powers centred in one. "A new Messenger has come to us, to carry on the work of the spiritual revivifiers. . . . They crucified Blavatsky; they crucified Judge; who shall say if we can protect from the powers of darkness our latest helper." In the next issue of THEOSOPHY, Mrs Tingley was revealed as the new Outer Head. Because of its relevance to Crosbie's May 1896 THEOSOPHY article, I again quote Crosbie's letter in which he mentioned to Mrs Tingley his first personal encounter with her. His experience must have occurred sometime before May 18, 1896. "I remember that the day I first saw you, I recognized you as the O[outer] H[ead] without hint or instruction as such, and in spite of the fact that I was not looking for a woman's form in that connection. During that day you and I were the only ones in the E.S. room, and you came and sat down at the table at which I was working, and told me a great many things, saying that you did not know why you told me these things but that it was doubtless for some purpose. . . ." These documents show that Mr Crosbie considered Mrs Tingley as the "great messenger" (as he phrased it in his May 1896 THEOSOPHY article). Mr Crosbie was not some distant bystander in Boston having to rely & accept "everything as stated [about Mrs Tingley] by the few in New York." In the events immediately after Judge's death, Mr Crosbie was a participant in the events. This is clear from his own personal words about Mrs Tingley--- "I remember that the day I first saw you, I recognized you as the O[outer] H[ead] without hint or instruction as such, and in spite of the fact that I was not looking for a woman's form in that connection." The above material is in sharp contrast & contradictory of Crosbie's post-1904 account in which the impression is given that he was not in New York, had no personal knowledge of Mrs Tingley during these crucial months of 1896 & merely "accepted everything as stated by the few in New York." Mr Crosbie's "Autobiographical Note" doesn't give the reader full access to all relevant material. I've tried to supply a few more pieces of the omitted material. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 28 05:37:11 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id FAA03352 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:30:03 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: <77efbaf.36fe124d@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 06:28:13 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Theos-World Looking for insight Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/27/99 3:22:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, quotes@blavatsky.net writes: << Quote of the Day (for Mar 27): But there exists another book. None of its possessors regard it as very ancient, as it was born with, and is only as old as the Black Age, namely, about 5,000 years. In about nine years hence [from about 1888], the first cycle of the first five millenniums, that began with the great cycle of the Kali-Yuga, will end. And then the last prophecy contained in that book (the first volume of the prophetic record for the Black Age) will be accomplished. We have not long to wait, and many of us will witness the Dawn of the New Cycle, at the end of which not a few acounts will be settled and squared between the races. -- Secret Doctrine Vol I intro pages xliii to xliv. By Helena Blavatsky. >> Help, intuition is sluggish this morning. Can anyone put today's Blavatsky quote into a simpler phrasing without loosing the essence. Clarification of times and dates, and, what will be squared, between whom. Feedback would be appreciated. Thanks Louis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 28 06:34:01 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id GAA06705 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 06:21:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Looking for insight Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:18:41 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be791d$806b9820$b10e97cf@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <77efbaf.36fe124d@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 28th 1999 Dallas offers some notes below: =================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of Teos9@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 3:28 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Looking for insight In a message dated 3/27/99 3:22:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, quotes@blavatsky.net writes: << Quote of the Day (for Mar 27): But there exists another book. None of its possessors regard it as very ancient, as it was born with, and is only as old as the Black Age, namely, about 5,000 years. In about nine years hence [from about 1888], the first cycle of the first five millenniums, that began with the great cycle of the Kali-Yuga, will end. And then the last prophecy contained in that book (the first volume of the prophetic record for the Black Age) will be accomplished. We have not long to wait, and many of us will witness the Dawn of the New Cycle, at the end of which not a few acounts will be settled and squared between the races. -- Secret Doctrine Vol I intro pages xliii to xliv. By Helena Blavatsky. >> ================================= Help, intuition is sluggish this morning. Can anyone put today's Blavatsky quote into a simpler phrasing without loosing the essence. Clarification of times and dates, and, what will be squared, between whom. Feedback would be appreciated. Thanks Louis ====================================== In my study I have come across the following, which ought to be considered individually. "nine years hence" probably Feb 13th 1898 (5,000 years after Krishna's death on Feb 13th 3102 BC (SD I 661-2 ) ) "Kali Yuga" is said to have begun at Krishna's death (SD I 661) "prophecy" see SD II 300 "Dawn of the New Cycle" - an article on this is available in THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT magazine, Bombay Feb 1958. Also See HPB's ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS -ref. To "Messianic" cycle of 2155 years - HPB Articles, vol. 3, p. 169fn. This is equivalent to 1/12the of the Solar (or Sidereal) "Year" of 25,868 years. Sun enters the sign of Aquarius. "accounts to be settled between races" See SD I 646 II 444 621 "Buddha's grand successor, Shankaracharya" SD I 86 162 271 522 539fn SD II 637; Some other references on Shankaracharya: articles in THEOS. MOVEMENT Vol 15, p 105; Vol. 8, p. 104; Vol. 37, p. 385; Theos. Glos HPB: pp. 307-8 289; 5 YRS of THY (2nd Edition) p. 177 195 278; Lucifer, Vol. 4, p. 387; BCW 12 p. 346fn; Theosophist I 71 89 Sorry I don't have the time to copy out all the references as I do not know specifically what you are looking for. If this can be made clearer I will try and see if there is anything more. What does your intuition suggest ? Dal -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Sun Mar 28 07:48:57 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA10664 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 07:48:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: Teos9@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:46:49 EST To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Theos-World Looking for insight Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/28/99 7:33:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, dalval@nwc.net writes: << Sorry I don't have the time to copy out all the references as I do not know specifically what you are looking for. If this can be made clearer I will try and see if there is anything more. What does your intuition suggest ? Dal >> Dallas, No need for apology's, YOU'RE intuition is working fine. Not only are the abundant references, right on, they are in a form that makes me do the work, which is exactly the way I like it. I am printing out the refs. and will look them over in the next few days. Sometime my intuition needs a jump start, this ought to do it. Thanks. Louis <> ================================= Help, intuition is sluggish this morning. Can anyone put today's Blavatsky quote into a simpler phrasing without loosing the essence. Clarification of times and dates, and, what will be squared, between whom. Feedback would be appreciated. Thanks Louis ====================================== In my study I have come across the following, which ought to be considered individually. "nine years hence" probably Feb 13th 1898 (5,000 years after Krishna's death on Feb 13th 3102 BC (SD I 661-2 ) ) "Kali Yuga" is said to have begun at Krishna's death (SD I 661) "prophecy" see SD II 300 "Dawn of the New Cycle" - an article on this is available in THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT magazine, Bombay Feb 1958. Also See HPB's ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS -ref. To "Messianic" cycle of 2155 years - HPB Articles, vol. 3, p. 169fn. This is equivalent to 1/12the of the Solar (or Sidereal) "Year" of 25,868 years. Sun enters the sign of Aquarius. "accounts to be settled between races" See SD I 646 II 444 621 "Buddha's grand successor, Shankaracharya" SD I 86 162 271 522 539fn SD II 637; Some other references on Shankaracharya: articles in THEOS. MOVEMENT Vol 15, p 105; Vol. 8, p. 104; Vol. 37, p. 385; Theos. Glos HPB: pp. 307-8 289; 5 YRS of THY (2nd Edition) p. 177 195 278; Lucifer, Vol. 4, p. 387; BCW 12 p. 346fn; Theosophist I 71 89>> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 29 09:05:30 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA02182 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:59:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990329145749.4828.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Purucker on United Lodge of Theosophists Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:57:39 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com The Dialogues of G. de Purucker, Meeting 14 "There is today an association of theosophists who now call themselves The United Lodge of Theosophists. As far as I have been able to gather, they apparently think that all esoteric inspiration and all receiving of new esoteric light stopped when HPB and WQJ died -- that all the esoteric wheels stopped then and there, and that there remains nothing in the world for men to live up to or aspire to in the way of a stream of illumination and teaching excepting the books that these two messengers wrote and left behind them. Yes, The United Lodge of Theosophists are in fact bibliolaters, book worshipers. Because they have HPB's and WQJ's books, the situation is not so bad; but is not this situation just what the sects in Christianity have degenerated into? Now these good and earnest people otherwise deserve credit for their splendid loyalty to HPB and to Judge, yet if they don't know it themselves intellectually, they are instinctively conscious of the fact that they have cut themselves off from the living stream of inspiration flowing from the Great Lodge; that their whole dependence is on books. They disclaim any teachers. Our own holy school is a Mystery-school. It is a strictly esoteric one; and therefore rites, ceremonials, and rituals, are conspicuous by their absence. In the exoteric-esoteric, or esoteric-exoteric, Mystery-schools of Greece, for instance, a great deal was made, both in Samothrace and Eleusis, of ritual and ceremonial, and these rituals and ceremonials were very happily conceived and successfully carried out for ages. The difficulty and danger of course were that they distracted the attention of the neophyte away from the essential truths, from the heart-light behind the ritual and the ceremonial. What were these rituals and ceremonials? Representations in dramatic form of the teachings given orally and in secret in the higher degrees, and without ritual and ceremonial." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 29 10:43:35 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA15061 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:38:30 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:34:10 -0500 From: Gerald Schueler To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: Responses to Peter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >>In support of your "liberation in a single lifetime" view you have constantly maintained that any view opposed to this is essentially negative in attitude. >> Once again (how many times??) this is not my view but one that is emphasized in Hinduism and Buddhism, and especially in Tibetan Buddhism. Yes, the opposite view would be that liberation in this lifetime is impossible. If this view is true, then it would logically follow that no one could ever do it, because the next life hasn't got here yet and all anyone really has is this one. I would have thought that this was obvious, Peter. Should we put off till tomorrow what we can possibly do today? Many of us do exactly that. >> In this light you proposed that for Theosophists to believe there were future lives ahead of them was "self defeating" and "therefore a rebirth will be a selfulling prophecy." (Your words) I showed that this argument does not stand up to examination.>> You are taking what I said the wrong way. I certainly never said that a belief in future lives is self-defeating for anyone except for a Chela trying for liberation in this lifetime. Only for such a Chela is it self-defeating. >>There is nothing to suggest that the Law of Karma & reincarnation can be overcome by 'personal beliefs' in the way you suggest.>> No, as a "law" it can't ever be overcome. But rather within the "law" itself is a way out according to all Buddhist schools, and HPB herself mentions the jivamukti. The central point that I am trying to make, and one that you constantly seem to miss, is that Buddhism teaches liberation, and that many schools see the possibility of liberation in a single lifetime. >>You reply (above) that the Law of Karma & Reincarnation has nothing to do with a discussion about achieving Liberation in one birth (which involves disolving personal karma and breaking the wheel of rebirth, according to your previous posts). I find this surprising, to put it mildly.>> Let me say it an another way then. Liberation in a single lifetime applies to the spiritual Path, to Chelas if you will (even "informal" chelas). Reincarnation and karma OTOH apply to everyone. >>Either personal beliefs have an effect as a self fulfilling prophecy or they don't. >> Of course they do. >>However, here you come nearer the Theosophical perspective which states that impersonal spiritual Laws govern all manifestation and spritual 'progress' and not the beliefs of the personality. The latter can work with or against but not govern those Laws.>> Most people don't believe in "spiritual Laws" at all. For those people, such laws may as well not exist. To say that karma is *only* impersonal is plain wrong. It has personal and impersonal aspects, which is where we get the ideas of both individual and collective karma. In my view the "beliefs of the personality" govern our lives. These are the self-image and the worldview--two of the most important factors of psychic health that we have. >> Let's first acknowledge the spiritual path is essentially an 'inner journey' and the mountain climb is only an analogy for this 'inner path'. One approach sees the mountainer taking stock of his position and the journey ahead of him and making a start from where he is, right now. >> OK, I will go ahead and use your analogy. In the case above, the climber will simply climb the mountain forever and ever and ever. Why? Because spirit, the ultimate goal of the journey and the top of our mountain is, by everyone's definition, infinite. << In the other approach, his colleague sits himself down and 'imagines' that he is at the goal already. This is the only way to "get" there, my friend. It begins with imagination (what do you think imagination is?) and then becomes reality. This is how intense visualization of most yogas works. >>Which of these is the more likely to arrive at the summit? The one who actually travels the path, long though it is, or the one who imagines he is at the top?>> The first will never get there, and only the second has a possible chance. The mountain top is infinitely high, which is exactly why your analogy doesn't work except in a very exoteric sense. Others have described the mountain top as being on the other side of a deep abyss. Only by jumping over the abyss can the top be reached. Steady climbing is a good thing, and makes one a better person, but will never ever lead anyone to the top. >>Where the analogy is weak is that it does not include that the essence of the path is to help each other on the way. Include this and it will do, I think. >> I agree that helping others up to our own level is a good thing. >>I think we are going round in circles here. This is not what HPB and the Masters have "clearly said" at all, as I have endeavoured to point out to you in each post. It is a rare exception, and even then we don't know what HPB was refering to by "exception".>> Of course we know what she meant. The excepts are the few people who realize that the climbing is infinite and endless and that we already are at the top of the mountain. >>If you know of somewhere in the Teachings of Theosophy where it is stated that our Karma can be disolved by forgiving ourselves and that we can reach the 'goal' by imagining we are already there - then please bring it forward to this group.>> It is clearly stated that we should not expect rewards for helping others. Why is that, Peter? Is it not because "rewards" are karmic and that so long as we expect punishment for wrongs and rewards for rights we will ever remain under karmic bonds? As I recall, I already quoted HPB saying that golden chains are just as binding as iron, and that all chains must ultimately be given up. As for our mountain climber, HPB clearly says that our mortal mind will never understand the immortal, and that the finite cannot understand the infinite. In other words, there is a deep abyss between the two. >>If some of the other major religions say it, that's fine. We each must choose which path to follow. >> The mainstream of Theosophists have chosen the endless Path of mountain climbing, and that is fine. I am trying to show that another Path is available, and one that is not opposed to anything HPB wrote. Perhaps the Path I am describing is too mystical or too esoteric for Theosophists to even dare or try? I don't know, but from your reactions, I suppose so and I will clam up on this subject after this response. >>From the Theosophical Perspective our essential nature is the Divine Self, itself a radiation of the Absolute. So yes, in 'essence' we are already THAT. Yet that does not do away with the evolutionary goals required of the 'spiritual pilgrim' to acquire individual Consciousness >> Agreed, Peter, but please try to remember that even HPB acknowledged that all such evolution is pure maya. How does one acquire "individual Consciousness" when HPB clearly stated that spirit or atma is NOT individualistic? Someone quoted an excellent paragraph from HPB on this list not long ago on Atma, which perhaps you should go back and study. Only atma-buddhi is individualistic. >> ...Is this not the 3rd Fundamental Proposition of the Secret Doctrine? >> I don't think so, no. >>I qoute this passage in full below. Presumably this is one of the views you regard as self defeating. I find it quite inspiring.>> Thanks for the nice quote. As far as I know, no one on this list disagrees with anything HPB wrote, especially here. However, I may be interpreting it differently form you. >>(c) The fundamental identity of all Souls with the Universal Over-Soul, the latter being itself an aspect of the Unknown Root>> This means that our mountain top is spiritual and infinite and universal (i.e., collective and not individualistic). >> and the obligatory pilgrimage for every Soul -- a spark of the former -- through the Cycle of Incarnation (or "Necessity") in accordance with Cyclic and Karmic law,>> This is the Great Breath of Brahman, the Arc of Descent and the Arc of Ascent, all of which is maya. It is lala, the divine play. >>No doubt if we only have to 'imagine' we are at the goal we will not need to prepare for the journey. >> Without a lot of preparation, how can you ever hope to do the imagining properly? Imagination, when used properly, is the springboard to spirituality, providing the force or impetus required to carry us over the abyss to the top of the mountain. It is obvious to me that a very great deal of preparation is needed. >> But Theosophy teaches none of these, as far as I can tell. It encourages Right Knowledge and Right Effort based on Right Motive - in the present and not at some future date.>> Whoops! Look at your last line here. This is exactly what I am saying. >>... Or is Study, Preparation and regular Practice also required in this endeavour of visualization? Once acknowledge the need for *any one* of these three then we are back to the idea of a path to travel, a path that takes time and involves the development of the Individual Consciousness and certain faculites within us.>> In the first stages of the Path, yes. But sooner or later we arrive at a section of the Path that is pathless, in the Krishnamurti sense. The Path that we can see and measure is the first part, and only takes us so far. The Pathless Path is required for liberation in a single lifetime. This is why liberation in a single lifetime is not opposed to Theosophy, but rather can be fitted into it very nicely. It is a logical extension, in exactly the same way that the tantras are an extension of the sutras and the vajra an extension of the tantras and DzogChen is an extension of them all. They are all pieces that can be fitted together without oposition. >>Then arises the question of "What is Right Knowledge which leads to Right Effort?" This is something each of us has to settle for ourselves. >> Agreed. >> My own view is that Theosophy provides some real and profound answers to these questions about our journey.>> I think so too. >>You put the view that HPB was talking 'head stuff' when she pointed out the Four Paths are linked with the Seven Stages of Initiation. Instead you propose the real criterion of where we are in these stages is the measure of our Desire for liberation.>> There is head teaching and there is heart teaching. They are not necessarily opposed to each other. I rather like the 7 stages of initiation and so on. It is mentally satisfying, but does little for my heart or soul. Most of the SD stuff is head teaching--i.e., exoteric. The heart or esoteric parts of it are all hidden between the lines. >>To 'desire' and to 'be able' are not identical. To desire to be a world champion chess player is no gaurantee that one will even learn how to play the game, let alone get to the finals. Desire supplies energy, but not intelligence, knowledge and ability. >> Agreed, but I seem to miss your point here. There first has to be desire, and only then will practice and so on be of any real value. This is true for sports, music, and spiritual pursuits as well. Without the desire (eye of the tiger) study and practice will always be halfhearted. >>Jerry, please offer something from the Teachings of Theosophy to support your view if you reply again on this topic. I think it would help.>> I am not aware of anything I have said that opposes Theosophy as taught by HPB. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Mon Mar 29 23:27:09 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA17574 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:16:53 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990329231556.00d86320@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:15:56 -0600 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World Re: Re: Threshold TS Organizations In-Reply-To: <5f287c45.36f562ce@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Rich: I appreciate your response and glad to see it. Yes, I have repeatedly pointed out the lack of *any* participation by any elected national/international officials and it is a fact you agreed with. I feel that we should all me reminded of it frequently because I think it is a great missed opportunity for theosophy, especially when the membership in organizations is dwindling. It is good to know that what is discussed on the lists are fedback to the leaders and I hope it does some good in that it provides them with the kind of feedback they cannot normally get from other sources. While your reasons for their non participation may be true, it is my opinion that they may be only one of the many contributing factors and probably the minor ones. While their jobs are demanding, I am sure many of the participants here also have more than full time jobs and other heavy responsibilities making great demands on their time and in spite of which they find time to read msgs and respond with detailed responses as needed all because of their interest in theosophy. I still hold the view that I do not think leadership still see the untapped power of the maillists as a tool; In my own experience, while I grew up with the computer industry, until I spent a lot of time having hands on experience with Internet for some months, I did realize its power and its enormous potential as a tool. Since most of the leaders have grown up in pre computer era, IMHO they still have not comprehended the power of Internet as a tool. Added to this is the unusual nature of the medium. The traditional print medium put out by the organizations is easy to control. The leaders can feed the membership what they want them to be fed. That is not so with Internet maillists. So it is very likely that they are at a loss as to how to deal with the maillists. Traditional control techniques such as editing/censoring does not work well. For example one of the large Theosophy organizations launched a "moderated" = censored/edited/controlled - maillist with dismal results. There is not a single msg on the maillist since the end of January. Just compare that to the traffic here and in other "unmoderated" lists. The msg is loud and clear. While many of the msgs on the lists may be trivial not warranting responses from the leadership, there are substantive items in the msgs from time to time which are very important from doctrinal, organizational and for long term survival of theosophical organizations. They, IMHO, warrant serious engagement by the leadership. As for the number of members on the list at this time; maillists are still in their infancy. It is when the current generation which is growing up in the Internet environment comes of age you will see the massive subscriptions. The current trend, at least in one Theosophy organization is that more and more are *not* interested in in-person interaction as shown by the rapid growth in the "members-at-large" who are not attached to any branch. It may take time; but I expect to see in-person membership slide as more and more branches are closed. Recently a subscriber in a private msg mentioned that when he went to a meeting of the branch in one of the largest cities in the country, he found five old women attending the meeting - a dismal number considering the population of the city. So the trend is not in favor of more in-person meetings. In person interaction will continue; but the maillist participation is about to take off; only is how soon. Organizational barriers have two aspects - inter organizational cooperation and interaction; and cooperation and interaction between people interested in theosophy whether they formally belong to one or more of the organizations or none. The former is not going to breakdown that easily. The latter - interaction between people is increasing. The latter type of interaction is not likely to take place when either the member has some vested interests in an organization (or in a related/parallel activity) and that vested interest or threat (explicit or subtle) to the interest prevents him/her from going against the tradition and/or unwritten code of the leadership of the organization. Internet maillists are acting as a catalyst in breaking down the barriers at the individual level and I am confident that we all will be witnessing the maillist breakthrough in the next few years. ....mkr At 04:21 PM 3/21/1999 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 3/21/99 5:53:50 PM, you wrote: leaders have avoided getting involved in any discussions that go on on >this maillist as well as on other theosophical maillists, and thus it >appears that the pre Information Technology mentality continues even in >the age of Information Technology.>> >Doss, > >You have made this statement umpteen times on this list, but at last I feel I >have to say a little in defense of the "leaders" of various organizations. >You are right that we have yet to see a high office-holder in the T.S. make >comments on this list. But I know for a *fact* that they get regular reports >on what is said here, who said it, and what the result was. Just this weekend >I spoke with the leaders of not one but TWO different associations, and BOTH >persons referenced this list and recent conversations. > >The reasons various leaders don't participate here is twofold, I suspect, >though you must understand this is *my supposition* and not their statements. >First, these folks are extremely busy. I feel very fortunate to talk on the >phone with either one of them once every six months. Running any organization >is extremely time consuming, and running a T.S. is even more so, since they >are terribly small outfits with a tremendous number of responsibilities. > >Secondly, the conversations on this list would hardly ever warrant an >organizational voice. Most of our conversations are sniping, or desultory >chat, or random questions such as I sometimes ask. None of these require the >presence of the head of a T.S. to answer. > >If what's happening on this list is so groundbreaking and amazing, why do we >only have 100 or so readers, and why don't all the members of the T.S.s who >meet in person up and leave their groups and join this list? I myself see >this list as a valuable tool, and I've made a number of friends a learned a >great number of things. It has been mind-opening. But I don't think this >list replaces in-person interaction, nor is this list or any other about the >break down organizational barriers, whether this century or next. > >Rich > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 30 11:56:50 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA23354 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:36:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-Id: <199903301735.UAA11585@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> From: "mika perala" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:20:41 +0000 Subject: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #801 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199903271500.JAA32127@pippin.imagiware.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01d) Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" : > > Dear Mika: > > This cycle is keyed to our present calendar used every day and > not to any other. Did Tsong-Kha-Pa use our calendar too? Buddhists have their own calendar and their 'las quarter of the century' does not much with ours, right? Bear me if I ask silly questions. And yes, you may send me your 'attachment'. Thank you. Mika > Se -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Tue Mar 30 17:23:13 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA05132 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:17:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Mika Perala" Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #801 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:13:40 -0800 Message-ID: <000501be7b0b$54ac7e80$480e75ce@netway.nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199903301735.UAA11585@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Mar 30th Dear Mika: No I do not think that Tson-ka-pa used our calendar. But whatever calendar he used when translated into the calendar that we use puts this 25 years of effort into the "last quarter of the century" according to our Julian calendar. I am familiar with several calendars which work on different cycles than our Julian calendar, such as the Jewish (Kabalistic), the Arabic (Koranic), the Irani (Zoroastrian), and the Hindu (Vikram Samvat). Most of them are based on a longer cycle than he arbitrary one which we currently use all over the world. I believe that the Chinese and the Japanese have their own traditional and ancient calendars. And in Central America the Mayas, Toltecs, etc., and in So. America, the Incan, had theirs. Once that a specific astronomical date is established, by an eclipse or some other well known astronomical event the relation is easy. In the Secret Doctrine, Vol 1, beginning page 647, HPB writes on the question of the Zodiacal clock and the way in which cycles are recorded and used. This section continues up to p. 668 and is very interesting. Best wishes to you, Dallas ================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com] On Behalf Of mika perala Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 5:21 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #801 > From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" : > > Dear Mika: > > This cycle is keyed to our present calendar used every day and > not to any other. Did Tsong-Kha-Pa use our calendar too? Buddhists have their own calendar and their 'las quarter of the century' does not much with ours, right? Bear me if I ask silly questions. And yes, you may send me your 'attachment'. Thank you. Mika > Se -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk Wed Mar 31 09:37:59 1999 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA24565 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:24:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk using -f Message-ID: <19990331152351.87202.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.6.152] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Dzyan Esoteric School---Esoteric Instructions Issued on Whose Authority? Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:23:49 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-theos-talk Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In ULT's Dzyan Esoteric School, esoteric instructions of Madame Blavatsky are *reissued* to members under a pledge of secrecy. Blavatsky's instructions were not to be discussed or shown to regular ULT associates or to other non-members of the DES. Anyone who violated this oath was expelled from DES. The essential question to ask is--- On whose authority were Madame Blavatsky's instructions reissued by the DES? During Blavatsky's & Judge's lifetimes, these instructions were given to new members by the authority of Blavatsky & Judge as Outer Heads of the E.S. directly representing the Masters who were the Inner Heads. Each member took a pledge not to discuss or show the documents to non-members. Robert Crosbie was an esoteric member during the lifetimes of Blavatsky & Judge. Mr Crosbie had taken the same pledge not to reveal any of these esoteric papers. After Mr Judge's death & at the formation of the ULT's DES, *by whose authority* were the instructions reissued with a new pledge of secrecy? Did Mr Crosbie violate his own original pledge by allowing the reissue of Blavatsky's esoteric instructions under a new pledge of secrecy? It is clear Blavatsky & Judge issued the instructions at the direction of the Masters. Who gave Mr Crosbie the authority or right to violate his original pledge & reissue the instructions to *new students* under an oath of silence and secrecy? Did Mr Crosbie believe that he was following in the esoteric footsteps of Blavatsky and Judge? In the last month I've received several emails from ULT associates suggesting that if I publish the contents of any DES material I'm opening myself & those who read the contents to *esoteric* or *occult* harm. This is the essential reason (I'm told) why the U.L.T. has been so adamant *against* the public release of Blavatsky's ES instructions. Those who are not ready & haven't taken the appropriate pledge, etc. could be subject to some sort of negative occult influence. So goes this type of reasoning. A correspondent wrote that Mr Henry Geiger, one of the more recent "leaders" of the Los Angeles ULT, was very much against Mr Boris de Zirkoff's proposal to publish Blavatsky's esoteric instructions in the "Collected Writings" series. When Mr de Zirkoff finally published them in Volume XII of the series, the ULT leadership was extremely upset. This is part of the underlying reasons for the ULT not mentioning in their publications the "Collected Writings" or using any of the CW material in their study of Blavatsky's teachings, so I'm told. This negative reaction by the ULT to Mr de Zirkoff's publication of Blavatsky's esoteric material appears ironic (even hypocritical)in light of the fact that the ULT leadership issued (through DES) the same material to their chosen ULT associates. Who gave them the authority to disseminate this esoteric material to *new people* while at the same time condemning Mr de Zirkoff for publishing the material for new people? David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.