From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 07:04:41 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Re: The Absolute Feb 1st. Dear Bjorn: Enjoyed your thinking about cosmology and cosmogenesis. As I understand it. 1. A BACKGROUND which we cannot do away with conceptually is denominated (for our limited minds at present) the "ABSOLUTE." Or, "ABSOLUTENESS" if some idea of quality or being is demanded. In point of fact it has no relation to anything that is either 'created" or "manifest." Yet, as a concept, as something that is anterior, basic, causal, but cannot be limited or defined is required by us. 2. Passing, then, from the ABSOLUTE, the concept of limitation is introduced. First: as an Idea, as a Concept, as a precursor to limitation. What dimensions are given to it? Note: the only concepts we can form of it are in terms of our limits, conceptually. So we may say: Time limits: duration, eternity. Motion: pulsation, vibration, a general tone to which all else is related Space: unlimited universality Second: As we are mind beings, we sense that there has to be a principle in operation, from the very first, that has relation to consiousness, intelligence, sensation, and memory (as well as anticipation). With this comes a sense of time, space and motion as "historical " (memory) and "verifiable" (present time) facts. Anticipation implies a hope for continuity and that there is a law which predicates effects that are consequent upon causes generated. So the idea of KARMA seems to begin there. KARMA is not only the great general law of multiple evolutions (creations), but also within any one "creation/evolutionary period" it operates to make causes and effects balance and harmonize. We see such a balance in Nature, which Science, researches in all departments. But in the "moral plane" we find it difficult to relate cause to effect because we cannot perceive such causes as may have been generated in an early incarnation of the Spirit/soul of a mind-being. The necessity for multiple mind-beings appears to be a requirement in the general scheme of evolution, assuming that evolution has for purpose the generating of minds that are progressively able to encompass the whole nature and purpose of any evolution/manifestation/creation. To me, humans appear to be in this condition. The evolution of our minds would then include a perception of all the phenomena and relationships of living is such a multi-dimensional world, with many-facultied beings all around us. KARMA would in general encompass all possible relationships between humans and also those that exist in every part of the "manifestation." Third: If to SPIRIT we oppose the polarity of MATTER we have contrast. Contrast gives many variables and intermediates, just as light in space is only perceived when there is an obstacle to it, (dust, a wall, some shape -- which in turn cast shadows behind them limiting the luminosity -- if from a single source.) Fourth; If SPIRIT and MATTER are to be perceived. a PERCEIVER is necessary . To my mind this requires a MIND-BEING. Thus the actual point of differentiation from/within the ABSOLUTE, passes from singularity to a triad: SPIRIT, MIND, MATTER. Would it not be logical to think that such a MIND-BEING would partake more of the nature of SPIRIT than of matter? Although, to be accurate, such a MIND-BEING would also have to learn or acquire the faculty of penetrating to all and every level of matter? In other words, understanding of our environment would have to be complete, and one life-time is inadequate. Hence the concept of REINCARNATION, or multiple births, where the "mind-soul-spirit" is able to pick up and continue its improvement. [ Question: Why should there be 'forgetfulness' between adjacent lives ? Why don't we remember our past lives in detail? ] Fifth: If we posit such a MIND-BEING, then it (or they) would have to be coexistent with SPIRIT and MATTER. Thus an eternal triangle or triad is necessary for "manifestation" or some limits that radiate from the ABSOLUTE. Sixth: The most advanced of such mind-beings would have to be enormously familiar with the evolutionary processes and therefore be entrusted with some of its procedures, as over-seers or administrators (under the LAW of KARMA) -- and part of those duties would consist of the education of infant and adolescent humanity, until a stage is reached when mankind can begin assuming the responsibility of educating itself by its own determination and efforts, each for itself, and incidentally for the benefit of others around it. 3. The "Word" Verbum Logos, etc... would this not be the idea of organization which presupposes an earlier one, this, being the reproduction of the old one at point when it went to "rest ?" The "word" (to me) signifies mind, plan, design, purpose; material in which it can be brought to shape; reason for its being so deployed; and beings of greater or lesser sensitivity who can participate in such a complex program. Such beings at whatever level would have to embody aspects more or less developed of all three aspects of the evolutionary mix: Spirit, Matter, and Mind. Hence every broad stage of evolution (from atom to Galaxy) and (from mineral to man, or super-man) would be a stage in the developing of an intelligence which encompasses the whole of the evolutionary purpose, and is able also to envisage, however dimly, or individually, and either with greater reality or greater fancy, such a concept as the ABSOLUTE. Such Intelligence, Consciousness or Spirit-Soul would be eternal, deathless and immortal, for this concept to be realizable. [ Question: is this so ? do we have enough evidence, and logic, to agree that mankind is in such a position potentially if not actually ? ] While not completely adopting your terminology, could you agree with some of my concepts ? Could we say perhaps: The Absolute is the "Causeless Cause, the Root and sustainer of All. Spirit represents consciousness or intelligence arising from and within the absolute. Mind is the intelligence of all beings in action--the creative or constructive power. Matter is substance, from the most ethereal to the most concrete: products of the interaction and interrelation of the various classes of beings involved. Will is the force of any and all degrees of intelligence; it is inherent in consciousness as "the power to act." determination (choice) to act makes it operative. There exists an ineffaceable Record in Nature, a kind of "Ether" which records all events, thoughts, actions, feelings. It is a form of substance which is created by the action of intelligence. Life is the power to perceive, and give expression to any degree of intelligence upon any level or plane of substance. Why should it be so difficult to understand the Absolute? IT is the opposite of "Relative." IT includes all things and all beings, and being the substratum of all, past, present or future. It cannot be inquired into by any being who exists in IT, and not from IT. It denotes that IT has no qualities or attributes of any kind, how can we who are limited understand IT ? We are familiar with the term LIFE, and understand that it is expressed in all forms visible or invisible to us. It is everywhere and penetrates all things. However as beings we cannot inquire into that power of infinite expression which each one of us is. We can only express IT according to the range and level of our particular nature and development. No being can express Life without being in essence LIFE ITSELF. So with the ABSOLUTE. We can say of the Absolute: IT IS. We can only say of ourselves: "I am." How can we inquire into that which does not depend on any expression great or small, but upon solely the fact of Its Universal Presence ? Of ourselves, we can only say: I am both being and non-being -- our power to perceive is "non-being," our experiences understood and remembered are our "being." The absolute is a name for the One Reality, the Infinite, Unchanging basis for All. The rest is "maya" illusion - the passing scene - with ever changing modes of expression and degrees of intelligence and forms. They ever approach the "Light," but they never touch the "Flame." I am afraid that some of this sounds very mystical, but don't know how else to express it. Hope that this is of some help also, Dallas Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 23145 Park Contessa, Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. ---------- > From: "Bjorn Roxendal" > Subject: Re: The Absolute > Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 12:50 PM > > Glen, Dallas, Govert and all who have contributed to this thread. Thanks for your contributions. I > find it all very fascinating. In answer to your input I'd like to submit the following outline of a > "mini cosmology": > > > It seems that life consist of two (integrated) compartments: > > 1. The uncreated > 2. The created > > The intellect may challenge the concept of "uncreated existence". Doesn't everything that exists have > a cause? At least this is our experience as we have been conditioned to experience through the filters > of time and space. But on the other hand we have to admit that there has to be an original causeless > cause, otherwise nothing would exist. The original Creator cannot be created, because there wouldn't > be anything/anybody to create it/him/her. The following concerns primarily the uncreated realm of > existence, since I believe that an understanding, even though preliminary and incomplete, of that > which is before creation, will help us understand changing and evolving life also. > > It follows logically that "something" within the realm of the uncreated is creating whatever is > part of creation. What we call "the Absolute" is obviously a part of the uncreated, even its > foundation. We "understand" that the Absolute is Existence itself, without differentiation or > qualities. There is no movement or action of any kind in the Absolute. Therefor It can NOT CREATE > anything. It does not do ANYTHING. It just IS. The Absolute is nothing but unlimited potential. It is > NOT the Creator. So, there must be an UNCREATED > something/somebody, that/who is the creating agent. This is what we often call the "Word". > > What can we say about the Word? First, it must somehow be connected to the Absolute (otherwise it > would not exist at all). The objection arises: How can something be connected to a no-thing that is > void of all qualities? I don't think we can find an intellectually satisfying answer, but it may help > to think of the Absolute as possessing one quality after all - BEINGNESS itself. In some mystical way > the Word is merged with the Absolute - it *IS* the Absolute in its *active* aspect. The Absolute has > two aspects, in > other words. 1) The Passive Absolute and 2) The Active Absolute. The Active Absolute is not yet > manifestation - it is still uncreated "nothingness" - but it not only IS, it also DOES. It doesn't do > anything in particular, of course, it just - vibrates. This vibration is not a movement as we think of > movement - to our minds movement has direction, beginning, end. The "movement" of the Word is simply > the ability to create. If the Absolute existed only in its "passive" aspect nothing would ever be > created. (When we talk about the Passive and the Active aspect of the Absolute it is really an > abstraction, a way to make the unthinkable processable by our minds. In reality the passive and active > aspects are one and inseparable.) > > But, there is still something missing. The Absolute, even its active aspect, would not necessarily > create anything, although the creative ability is there. There must be something more. If we think > about the fact that the Word is a kind of original movement/vibration, we are led to the conclusion > that the Absolute within itself must contain a polarity. Not duality, but polarity. Nothing can > vibrate without there being a difference, a potential, if you will, between whose extremes the > vibration can take place. > > > These "phenomena" takes place within the Absolute itself, they are all uncreated. They are the > necessary > prerequisites for creation. > > Let us continue - a polarity is only a polarity if we have *poles* and a pole is/has *identity*. A > pole is a defined point of origin of something. In this case the poles originate the "movement" of the > Word. Let us, for simplicities sake, call the poles + and - . The + and the - signify a *difference*. > If there is a difference there are *qualities*, since the things that differ differ by virtue of their > different qualities. The "plus" possesses one or more distinct qualities, the "minus', likewise. If we > try to > *name* these most basic existential qualities, what would we call them? I am sure there are many names > we could use; all incomplete, but all also, perhaps, partially true. Some word pairs, like > Father/Mother or Creator/Destroyer, emphasize the Personal aspect of the poles, while others, like > Power/Love, more emphasize qualities in an impersonal sense. > > I suggest the words "Givingness" and "Receptivity" as descriptions of the primordial, uncreated > qualities, inherent in all life, created and uncreated. "Giving" and "receiving" depend on each other > and describe the most basic life processes, inherent in the Word itself. The giving "Pole", (+), is > the "Giver" and the receiving Pole, (-), is the "Receiver". One cannot exist without the other. We can > look at them as *Persons* (Giver/Receiver) or *qualities* (Givingness/Receptivity). They are/have > personality (personhood) AND quality. The passive, receptive pole is the "Knower", the active pole > that which becomes the known. > > What we need to remember is that all of the above is part of the uncreated. There is no time, space or > manifestation in this realm. So far we are talking about that which IS, not what was or will be. One > error that we are prone to is to think about time as something that was created a very very long time > ago. Not so, time is created now, in the eternal now. Time did NOT start happening. It is created "as > we speak". ("Before Abraham was, I AM"). > > So, we have Existence (the Passive Absolute), Creative capacity (The Word) and Personality (+/-). We > are now ready to Create! Well, *almost*. In order for the Word to be employed in creative activity, > there has to be a modulating influence. The Word itself is Creative potential, not creative process. > Where do we find the modulator? The Word is potential infinite creativity but it has to be put to use. > How does that happen? And by what agency? I think, in essence, that it just "happens". The Giver and > the Receiver/Perceiver have a relationship through their ongoing giving/receiving. In this > relationship awareness arises. It is Self awareness. And with the awareness that "I AM", comes the > awareness that "I AM infinite creative capacity". I think that is how creation begins - by the agency > of awareness. What then follows is the modulating of the ebb and flow of the movement of the Word. The > Word does not "change", it remains what it is. At the same time modulation/creation takes place. As > soon as modulation starts, abstract time and space (not physical) has been created. From there on it > is a matter of variation and densification in infinite degrees. A sustained pattern of vibration is a > form, and there is no end to the possibilities. The Word is part of both the absolute/uncreated and > the relative/creation. The Word is what is *Real* about creation, all "appearances" are "maya". > Illusion comes from the fact that it is possible to have a limited view point. Instead of perceiving > from the point of view of the Receiver/Perceiver it is possible to locate a "Pseudo perceiver" > somewhere on a limited aspect of creation. From such a veiwpoint everything becomes relative and Truth > is to be found nowhere. > > And that's all I have to say about that (for now). > > > Bjorn > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:53:42 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: To Bjorn and Dallas Dear Bjorn, Your thesis on the Absolute was very informative. It helped clarify some meanings for me. Thank you. ********************* Dear Dallas, Thank you for your responses to my posts. These last few weeks have been very hectic for me. I will respond when I have the time. I've been regularly reading all the posts. I hope you have recovered fully from your illness. I wish you robust health. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:10:22 -0500 (EST) From: "Ernest Pelletier" Subject: July '98 Conference - Edmonton TS A CALL FOR PAPERS on THE WORKS AND INFLUENCE OF H.P. BLAVATSKY "A Forum For Presentations and Open Dialogue" Edmonton T.S. will be hosting a conference July 3 - 5, 1998 for the presentation of previously unpublished papers focussing on what H.P. Blavatsky presented and/or her influence on 20th century thought. Guidelines for papers are posted below. Please advise the Conference Committee as early as possible of your intentions to participate. The deadline for submissions is March 31, 1998. Everyone is welcome to attend. Please feel free to mention this conference to others whom you feel may be interested. GUIDELINES For Papers On The Works and Influence of H.P. Blavatsky When: July 3 - 4 - 5, 1998 Where: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Content: Papers [original/previously unpublished] are to focus on what H.P. Blavatsky presented and/or her influence on 20th century thought, including but not limited to the fields of science, literature, art, music, religion, philosophy, health, psychology, education, sociology, etc. Please submit papers in English. It is preferred that references to HPB’s major works be kept to original or facsimile editions. Authors are encouraged to review their presentations for ambiguity and redundancy, and avoid personal remarks that do not pertain to the subject. Please include a short [one paragraph] biography with your paper. Format: Typed and double-spaced, with 1" (2.5 cm) margins, on 8˝" x 11" (21.5 x 28 cm) or A4 plain, white paper. Papers may be 1.) mailed to: Edmonton Theosophical Society Box 4587 Edmonton, Alberta Canada T6E 5G4 2.) sent by e-mail (as an attachment only) to: fohat@planet.eon.net or: epelleti@netcom.ca 3.) sent on 3 ˝" diskette, mailed to the above mentioned address - in WordPerfect 6.1 or Microsoft Word 6.0 [or older version] for Windows 3.1 All diagrams must be in black and white [i.e., ink or computer generated] Presentation: Regardless of the length of the paper, presentations will be limited to twenty (20) minutes, followed by twenty (20) minutes of open dialogue. Audio/video equipment requirements must be submitted with your paper. If the author is unable to attend, he/she may designate a presenter. If the paper is more than 10 pages (double-spaced) in length a summary must be included that can be read in a 20 minute time-frame. If a reader is not designated, one will be assigned by the Conference Committee. Deadlines: Please advise as early as possible of your intentions to participate. The deadline for submissions is March 31, 1998. Papers submitted for consideration will be presented to the Conference Committee for approval. Notification of acceptance: May 1, 1998 Proviso: Edmonton T.S. reserves the right to publish any or all papers submitted. Venue: The conference will be held at the Holiday Inn - The Palace where facilities have been booked and a block of rooms reserved at reasonable rates for those attending and their families. The hotel is conveniently located a short distance from Edmonton International Airport, and also provides a shuttle service for guests. Information packages detailing accommodation and facilities will be sent to all interested parties. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:55:33 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:To Bjorn and Dallas Dear Thoa: O Glad to hear from you, and quite understand the pressures. There is so much to do one has to time-fit many things. Here too. Do you have any books by Mme. Blavatsky to refer to with you ? Sometimes I can draw attention to things already there which can clarify better than I could write -- there is some value increment in going direct to the source, and I would prefer sending you to look where I have also browsed. My health is now quite restored -- bronchitis turned to pneumonia, and shortness of breath was pronounced -- used new antibiotic Ziporex to get rid of infection which was preventing O2 and CO2 exchange in lungs. Best wishes, Dallas Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 23145 Park Contessa, Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. ---------- > From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" > Subject: To Bjorn and Dallas > Date: Sunday, February 01, 1998 12:53 PM > > Dear Bjorn, > > Your thesis on the Absolute was very informative. It helped clarify some > meanings for me. Thank you. > > ********************* > > Dear Dallas, > > Thank you for your responses to my posts. These last few weeks have been > very hectic for me. I will respond when I have the time. < snip >. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 06:51:48 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: ? Dallas offers some more quotations and key ideas: "The pivotal doctrine of the Esoteric Philosophy admits of no privileges or special gifts in man, save those won by his own Ego through personal effort and merit throughout a long series of metempsychoses and reincarnations." SD I 17 "Allied to his spiritual part is his conscience...for conscience is that instantaneous perception between right and wrong, which can only be exercised by the spirit which, being a portion of the divine wisdom and Purity , is absolutely pure and wise." ISIS I 305 "Every man has a god within, a direct ray from the Absolute, the celestial ray from the One, that he has his "god" within not outside of himself." TRANSACTIONS, 53 Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 23145 Park Contessa, Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 06:18:12 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Internet Dear MKR: What is the address for THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL on Internet ? What is the nature of their work ? Thanks Dallas Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 23145 Park Contessa, Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. ---------- > From: "M K Ramadoss" > Subject: Internet > Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 8:13 AM > > In my previous post on the Internet, I forgot to mention Theosophy > International - the "organization" with no bureaucracy and no money and the > sole medium it uses is Internet. My salute to Alan who launched it and > again shows the individual interest and effort. > > mkr > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:22:10 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: To Dallas Dear Dallas, I have several books by the Mme., SD I & II, Isis I & II, Key, Glossary, and maybe some others hidden in the nooks and crannies. Also close to the tradition of Blavatsky, I have almost all the de Puruckers. Due to her writing style of cramming the book with diverse information (like throwing clothes into a suitcase and then sitting on it to close it), I was never able to read SD I & II from beginning to end. I've been using them as references. I would read a page, a big question mark would arise, I then pick up other books (more understandable and well-written) to read in reference to that. It's a very slow process. It's a BIG study of comparative religion, science, history, the supernatural and anthropology! Because some things do not agree with my knowledge of science and anthropology, I often had to wonder whether there's an esoteric meaning to them. And people wonder why some theosophists aren't reading SD I and II. I do appreciate your giving out references. I also find value in people figuring things out for themselves. Both ways of obtaining information are valid. Without the former, we would not have the foundation with which to build our knowledge and creative power. Without the latter, there would be no creative power. The creative process, to me, is the result of what IS KNOWN passing through you, me, we, synthesizing to form THE NEW. That's why I shake my head at the debate between giving out referenced information and personal information. I find time to read the posts because knowledge in is important to me. I cannot respond because my rushing will not do justice to what I want to say and would not be a proper response to the posts. I could send in some jokes. :o) Poetry, perhaps. :o)). I'm glad to hear that you are doing good. Write on, Dallas! Thoa :o) >Dear Thoa: O > >Glad to hear from you, and quite understand the pressures. There is so >much to do one has to time-fit many things. Here too. > >Do you have any books by Mme. Blavatsky to refer to with you ? Sometimes I >can draw attention to things already there which can clarify better than I >could write -- there is some value increment in going direct to the source, >and I would prefer sending you to look where I have also browsed. > >My health is now quite restored -- bronchitis turned to pneumonia, and >shortness of breath was pronounced -- used new antibiotic Ziporex to get >rid of infection which was preventing O2 and CO2 exchange in lungs. > >Best wishes, Dallas > > Dallas TenBroeck > dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 > 23145 Park Contessa, > Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:27:32 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Re:Teaching self-help is also compassion >From: "Marshall Hemingway III" >Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 9:24 AM >Subject: Teaching self-help is also compassion >In a message dated 98-01-20 00:10:55 EST, you write: > >Keith Price wrote: > ><< I think that what passes for theosophy is a combination of Esoteric >Buddhism and Victorian morality from the Christian tradition. The hospitals in >the East are practically all run by the dreaded Christians because the >Buddhists have a "let them escape suffering through meditation attitude" and >let the poor people work out their karma without my earning bad karma through >interfering with their karma (that is helping them with a Christian handout!). >>> > >This is always the dilemma. How much charity should be offered and when is >enough, enough. Even the current welfare system has been modified and welfare- >for-work has been adopted by many states to get families off the dole who have >been dependent for generations on government largess. The same concern arises >with third world nations. Do the more affluent countries give them fish or >teach them how to fish? And which is more compassionate in the long run? I >would have to say the latter. Currently, many would say that the IMF is >providing welfare to fiscally irresponsible countries. > >In case of dire famine, richer countries would have to intervene immediately >with food and medicine but the big picture solution would have to deal with >the causes of famine and destitution by helping people come up with their own >solutions. The same principle applies on a smaller scale when focusing on >impoverished neighborhoods. Although food kitchens provide temporary relief, >the long-run solution would embrace the notion of the poor alleviating their >karma by modifying that karma themselves through the principle of self-help. >This is certainly in tune with the idea of "self-induced and self-devised >efforts" presented the Third Fundamental Principle of the SD. > >Lmhem111 >hy.com. Keith: We have two choices 1) Crisis management due to over-population and consumerism: that is we have to give them fish in Sarejevo, Lebenon, Cuba, Viet Nam, and Africa because we have the systems to do so and they have the empty stomachs. This has been going on for a long time, but many have seen the development of SYSTEMS in everything since World War II which has never really ended. The whole idea of really doing what one wants by growing one's own food and trading in the local marketplace has given way to the extreme specialization that leads the females and even the children back into the systemized marketplace of service industries and the monstrous day care systems that creates nothing but brats (check the research for yourself in any psych 101 book) This whole system installs nothing but a scarcity mentality that can never be appeased and the whole problem of addictions that are evident as never before in the developed countries (look at Elvis, MM, Karen Carpenter, Di, they had it ALL according to the popular press!) 2) Inner management: a few can do the tough inner work to get to the place where one can rises above receiving to receive like plants, giving to give like moralistic injunctions, giving to receive as in trade, to a place of receiving the Limitless Life to bestow and give to all The inner works seems to require continuous works. Would it be to much to ask that Clinton step down and give a group of Philosopher Kings a chance at WORLD GOVERNMENT he thinks is so necessary. The question is not who could pass the spiritual test, but who would give them? Jousting anyone?? Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:33:55 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" >Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 2:36 PM >Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >What about considering that the universe is composed of many universes. >Souls on earth may be multiplying like crazy, but souls may be decreasing >on another universe that is dying. That same fact can apply to another >dying planet in this universe. When earth dies, where do you think all of >our souls will go? Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't believe that new >souls on earth have somehow downgraded in quality. > >Thoa :o) > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: "Dallas TenBroeck" >>Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 4:28 PM >>Subject: Re:Re: Brenda on Ego >> >> >>>Dear Pepe: >>> >>>Abut reincarnation -- no one can prove it to another, the logic of it is >>>important. Do you have a copy of Mr. W.Q.Judge THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, or >>>can you borrow one from a friend or a library -- I can send you one if you >>>want. >>> >>>The question of the mathematics is important and Judge deals with it as >>>follows in that small book: (in my book it is on pp. 77-78) >>> >>>Take the population of a large city, say it is 1,000,000. In the city is a >>>large auditorium, holing perhaps 5,000. Consider the condition of the >>>auditorium. It usually has a fluctuating population depending on the day, >>>the time and the importance of the show. By analogy the amount at any one >>>time of those humans on earth is like the fluctuating population of the >>>auditorium. But the total number of the city's population is a constant. >>> >>>The total number of those "in incarnation" varies, but the grand total of >>>those "in" and those "out" is the constant. >>> >>> Best wishes to you, Dallas >>>=================== >>> >>> Dallas TenBroeck >>> >>>dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 >>> 23145 Park Contessa, >>> Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. >>> >>>---------- >>>> From: "Jose R Grana" >>>> Subject: Re:Re: Brenda on Ego >>>> Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 3:38 PM >>>> >>>> Yes, what we are now, me, you, us, our >>>> present and "incarnated" individualities, >>>> are unique, will only exist once and will never be repeated. >>>> SNIP < >>Keith: >> >>Excuse me! Can anyone really believe (well yes, anybody can believe >>anything really) that the limited number of human monads (sparks) from the >>one Monad (divine fire) is limited. Pa-lease! I don't care who said it. I >>don't care if HPB rolls in her devachanic grave. Anybody can see that the >>human race could become as large as a colony of bacteria which it resembles >>in many way and populate as many planets as possible and really >>over-populate this globe as well. This is where thesophists have got to do >>better or scientists will just shake their heads in well-justified disgust. >> >>I think a more rational approach is that the quality of souls is reduced by >>what scientists call "genetic load" that is there are more criminals, >>insane people, people with defects of every kind as the population becomes >>larger and society becomes more "compassionate". I know this will earn me >>nothing, but scorn, but someone has to say that the GURU has no aura. >>Theosophists-please! >> >> >>p.s. I stopped before I sent this message, because I don't want to take it >>back, but maybe modify the stridency. I think that what passes for >>theosophy is a combination of Esoteric Buddhism and Victorian >>morality from >>the Christian tradition. The hospitals in the East are practically all run >>by the dreaded Christians because the Buddhists have a "let them escape >>suffering through meditation attitude" and let the poor people work out >>their karma without my earning bad karma through interfering with their >>karma (that is helping them with a Christian handout!). Let's take all the >>blinder off. So many people assume you have to have a liberal smarmy >>mentality to be on the spiritual path. Sometimes the most compassionate >>thing is to call a spade a spade, The kind of tea party theosophy that >>paints an over-pretty picture of the solutions to our problems is something >>that Annie Bessant would have never settled for, I bet. >> A less strident KEITH PRICE again" Well, there is the notion that the world will be polluted with souls that have incarnated before right before the deluge, second coming, Kalki avatar, end of the Kali Yuga mini-cycle etc. Look around you. Do you see evidence of spirituality (not talk about it in cyber or other space) is on the increase in our politics, society or art? Go ahead, give some examples that all these crack babies are next to Krishnimurti? Namaste Keith Well, > >-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:33:52 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" >Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 2:36 PM >Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >What about considering that the universe is composed of many universes. >Souls on earth may be multiplying like crazy, but souls may be decreasing >on another universe that is dying. That same fact can apply to another >dying planet in this universe. When earth dies, where do you think all of >our souls will go? Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't believe that new >souls on earth have somehow downgraded in quality. > >Thoa :o) > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: "Dallas TenBroeck" >>Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 4:28 PM >>Subject: Re:Re: Brenda on Ego >> >> >>>Dear Pepe: >>> >>>Abut reincarnation -- no one can prove it to another, the logic of it is >>>important. Do you have a copy of Mr. W.Q.Judge THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, or >>>can you borrow one from a friend or a library -- I can send you one if you >>>want. >>> >>>The question of the mathematics is important and Judge deals with it as >>>follows in that small book: (in my book it is on pp. 77-78) >>> >>>Take the population of a large city, say it is 1,000,000. In the city is a >>>large auditorium, holing perhaps 5,000. Consider the condition of the >>>auditorium. It usually has a fluctuating population depending on the day, >>>the time and the importance of the show. By analogy the amount at any one >>>time of those humans on earth is like the fluctuating population of the >>>auditorium. But the total number of the city's population is a constant. >>> >>>The total number of those "in incarnation" varies, but the grand total of >>>those "in" and those "out" is the constant. >>> >>> Best wishes to you, Dallas >>>=================== >>> >>> Dallas TenBroeck >>> >>>dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 >>> 23145 Park Contessa, >>> Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. >>> >>>---------- >>>> From: "Jose R Grana" >>>> Subject: Re:Re: Brenda on Ego >>>> Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 3:38 PM >>>> >>>> Yes, what we are now, me, you, us, our >>>> present and "incarnated" individualities, >>>> are unique, will only exist once and will never be repeated. >>>> SNIP < >>Keith: >> >>Excuse me! Can anyone really believe (well yes, anybody can believe >>anything really) that the limited number of human monads (sparks) from the >>one Monad (divine fire) is limited. Pa-lease! I don't care who said it. I >>don't care if HPB rolls in her devachanic grave. Anybody can see that the >>human race could become as large as a colony of bacteria which it resembles >>in many way and populate as many planets as possible and really >>over-populate this globe as well. This is where thesophists have got to do >>better or scientists will just shake their heads in well-justified disgust. >> >>I think a more rational approach is that the quality of souls is reduced by >>what scientists call "genetic load" that is there are more criminals, >>insane people, people with defects of every kind as the population becomes >>larger and society becomes more "compassionate". I know this will earn me >>nothing, but scorn, but someone has to say that the GURU has no aura. >>Theosophists-please! >> >> >>p.s. I stopped before I sent this message, because I don't want to take it >>back, but maybe modify the stridency. I think that what passes for >>theosophy is a combination of Esoteric Buddhism and Victorian morality from >>the Christian tradition. The hospitals in the East are practically all run >>by the dreaded Christians because the Buddhists have a "let them escape >>suffering through meditation attitude" and let the poor people work out >>their karma without my earning bad karma through interfering with their >>karma (that is helping them with a Christian handout!). Let's take all the >>blinder off. So many people assume you have to have a liberal smarmy >>mentality to be on the spiritual path. Sometimes the most compassionate >>thing is to call a spade a spade, The kind of tea party theosophy that >>paints an over-pretty picture of the solutions to our problems is something >>that Annie Bessant would have never settled for, I bet. >> A less strident KEITH PRICE again" Well, there is the notion that the world will be polluted with souls that have incarnated before right before the deluge, second coming, Kalki avatar, end of the Kali Yuga mini-cycle etc. Look around you. Do you see evidence of spirituality (not talk about it in cyber or other space) is on the increase in our politics, society or art? Go ahead, give some examples that all these crack babies are next to Krishnimurti? Namaste Keith Well, > >-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:32:32 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:To Dallas Dear Thoa:O: Many have felt as you do, also that there seems to be a conflict between what she offers as the ancient doctrines and Science. I too was brought up in the study of science and its theories. In fact I worked for many years as "Asia representative of the Van Nostrand Co. - and that included separate publishing and manuscript search, etc... I found that the reading of the KEY TO THEOSOPHY put me at least into the general "know" of what was being presented in Theosophical doctrine. As there are differences between what our Science teaches us, it became a challenge to me to find out exactly what those differences were and why. No one will disagree, least of all Theosophy about the OBSERVATIONS of Science. But the THEORIES and the HYPOTHESES that Science has evolved to explain matters which they have not been able to DIRECTLY OBSERVE, i.e., pre-history and evolutionary processes, as well as ethical and moral effects, I have noticed to be constantly are subject to revision. I strongly object to being taught as a child certain things as FACTS, and then find later on that those are only surmises and are being revised. Why should I have to spend time remembering false things ? I could have been told at the beginning that those are only guesses, based on such evidence as is so far found? Both Science and Theosophy study Nature. But Science, as we now know it has an antiquity of about 300 years. It has devised many important tools to use to measure and to date the past. But it has no direct observation. Theosophy claims ( SD I 272-3) to be a record condensed from observations of those who lived in the past. Those who lived in that past were us. Reincarnations of the spirit/soul is the missing link not only as regards those experiences, but also in the matter of the evolution of the physical body of man. In that latter matter Theosophy claims that the "apes" desended from Man, rather than Man ascended from the apes. Some extremely accurate physiologists comparing the bony structure of men and apes concluded the skeleton of two species showed that man could not possibly ascend from the ape structure, but that the reverse was possible. Apparently that study has been forgotten or suppressed by those who liked the Darwin/Huxley theory. As to Science, I had to be very broad, rather than narrow in study, so the many different aspects of comparison to be found in the SD and in Isis attracted me, as I was interested in all aspects of knowledge. In fact, if one is too much of a specialist there is a tendency to disregard other salient and important aspects of learning. As to using other writers who may serve to you and others as "interpreters" of Theosophical doctrines, I would say that every one who has written since HPB's time has put in their views and the result is that to some extent original and pure Theosophy as it comes almost entirely through her from the Masters of Wisdom, is to that extent distorted. even what I write and discuss ought to be looked at from the point of view that I only know some aspects of Theosophy and have adopted may be unconsciously, those aspects that appeal to me and I have neglected others. So in choosing the say-so of one or another writer I have had to run comparisons with the basics and fundamental ideas that are presented to us as "propositions" and not as dogmas of Theosophical importance. HPB noting that her students tended to place her writings on a "pedestal" tried to get them to understand that even her presentation was tinged with this kind of alteration. She wanted them to learn and to think for themselves and no swallow, or adopt wholesale what she offered. So she tried again and again to tell them to think things out independently. To me the most important aspect of learning to be gained from Theosophy is the concept of the integration of all aspects of life. The bond is more of a moral one than anything else, for when we consider that every thing we do affects the rest of our environment, and also to some extent the Universe we have to agree that the least friction and confusion that we make is better than anything else. If we perceive as a matter of total resiprocity that our motives affect first of all our own senses, and the refinement or coarsening of them is the result of our motivation and the actions that succeed our thoughts and feelings, then we may start viewing the importance of looking at the world in terms of brotherhood instead of the isolation of family, race, religion, politics, and the very unfortunate history of repression and victimization that has followed the paths of nations, tribes, races, and individuals ... We live altogether too much in the past and seem to lose ourselves in treasuring the wrongs done to us, instead of the benefits we received and those which we can distribute to others. without exception those great men, prophets, sages, reformers, etc... who are looked up to as examples of human excellence taught only one main thing: "Treat others as you would desire they treated you." All the rest is discussion and argument of personal rights and wrongs which have little real permanence. So Theosophy is to me that great cementing body of information and reasoning which enables me to tract with greater accuracy the probable effect of my motives and actions. And to make sure of my own integrity, I strive to analyze and extrapolate at the same time, so that causes and effects may be equally objective to the mind's eye. You speak of the consideration of the "supernatural." There is quite a large body of evidence for its being recognized down the ages. Just consider that all we know of the physical properties of an element or a compound are recorded by observation in respect to that particular chosen subject. It is objective in the way in which it is made, used or appears. But when you have seen it, and probed its nature, and made readings as to its qualities and uses, where does this information go ? It goes into our minds. There in an entirely subjective environment ( supernatural ?) it is reviewed, revised, checked, questioned, and finally the publication to the world of specific findings or applications is made. If the individual so researching is a genius, a quantum leap may take him to seeing a hitherto concealed relationship with other materials in various relations other than the normal, as for instance under the barrage of pressure, electrical conditions, heat, etc... The important thing to realize is that it always takes a subjective approach to make precise an objective phenomenon. Further the construction of inventions or the discovery of new and unexpected properties is always a question of mental activity. The story goes that Edison was well aware of the curious phenomenon of the inner Ego working even when the physical body was asleep. In order to try to catch some of its insights to a problem he would allow himself to fall asleep, sitting up with a tea-spoon held between thumb and first finger. When sleep occurred the spoon would fall and the clatter would arose him to wakefulness, whereupon he examined his memories of whatever dream he just had, and in quite a few cases such memories triggered in his mind a solution to a problem he was seeking. Others have used this and other methods to examine their dreams. Dreams are one of the door ways to the supernatural as you call it. We do not know much about them, why they occur, what happens when the consciousness abandons the body. What does "being tired" mean, etc... What is the true "animator" of the physical body ? Why do the structures of the body" skeleton, nervous and blood conveying systems arrange themselves as they do ? How is it that the various organs are formed ? What causes the healing of a wound ? What is the real power of the mind ? what is a "thought?" as opposed to or in addition to a "feeling," or a "desire ?" There are many questions about ourselves which we do not have any definite answers for. Yes, we can tell more or less what makes us ill or well, what drugs can do to cure or to alter the sharpness of consciousness, or even to induce trances and "altered states of consciousness," but then, what have we learned ? we can tinker and make changes, but the true motive power and the action of desire and will are unclear. There is not question that these areas of research are under investigation in dozens of laboratories, physical and psychological. Every true medical man will tell you that medicine is a growing a developing science, and they constantly meet mysteries and unfamiliar territories. Man is not a machine and although there are approximations between any two of us, we are all different, because we are free-will chasers and are reshaping ourselves constantly. What is unitary ? the Sense of Selfhood: "I am I." the rest is in constant change. I found that the ideas and propositions of Theosophy bring these together and give coherence to the purpose of our living in general. To the extent that we are given ideas which we can test without having them imposed as axioms on us we will feel comfortable with them. if they become matters of dogma or of outward performance (ritual) or of creed (professed belief) , or if we are asked to agree to some "party line" then we are in grave trouble, and if that ever happens the so-called "theosophy" of such a time will no longer be living, but will have been destroyed, gone under-ground, and it will as a dried and desiccate specimen be used to fool those who are too lazy to search and think for themselves. Now that is a lot to say, and perhaps some of it is quite wrong. Best wishes -- now it is your turn, or anyone else's, to respond, I hope Dal Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 23145 Park Contessa, Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. ---------- > From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" > Subject: To Dallas > Date: Monday, February 02, 1998 10:22 AM > > Dear Dallas, > > I have several books by the Mme., SD I & II, Isis I & II, Key, Glossary, > and maybe some others hidden in the nooks and crannies. Also close to the > tradition of Blavatsky, I have almost all the de Puruckers. Due to her > writing style of cramming the book with diverse information (like throwing > clothes into a suitcase and then sitting on it to close it), I was never > able to read SD I & II from beginning to end. I've been using them as > references. I would read a page, a big question mark would arise, I then > pick up other books (more understandable and well-written) to read in > reference to that. It's a very slow process. It's a BIG study of > comparative religion, science, history, the supernatural and anthropology! > Because some things do not agree with my knowledge of science and > anthropology, I often had to wonder whether there's an esoteric meaning to > them. And people wonder why some theosophists aren't reading SD I and II. > > I do appreciate your giving out references. I also find value in people > figuring things out for themselves. Both ways of obtaining information are > valid. Without the former, we would not have the foundation with which to > build our knowledge and creative power. Without the latter, there would be > no creative power. The creative process, to me, is the result of what IS > KNOWN passing through you, me, we, synthesizing to form THE NEW. That's > why I shake my head at the debate between giving out referenced information > and personal information. > > I find time to read the posts because knowledge in is important to me. I > cannot respond because my rushing will not do justice to what I want to say > and would not be a proper response to the posts. I could send in some > jokes. :o) Poetry, perhaps. :o)). > > I'm glad to hear that you are doing good. Write on, Dallas! > > Thoa :o) > > > > > > >Dear Thoa: O > > > >Glad to hear from you, and quite understand the pressures. There is so > >much to do one has to time-fit many things. Here too. > > > >Do you have any books by Mme. Blavatsky to refer to with you ? Sometimes I > >can draw attention to things already there which can clarify better than I > >could write -- there is some value increment in going direct to the source, > >and I would prefer sending you to look where I have also browsed. > > > >My health is now quite restored -- bronchitis turned to pneumonia, and > >shortness of breath was pronounced -- used new antibiotic Ziporex to get > >rid of infection which was preventing O2 and CO2 exchange in lungs. > > > >Best wishes, Dallas > > > > Dallas TenBroeck > > dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 > > 23145 Park Contessa, > > Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:22:16 -0600 From: "Pam Giese" Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >From: "Keith Price" > > Look around you. Do you see evidence of spirituality (not talk about it in > cyber or other space) is on the increase in our politics, society or art? > Go ahead, give some examples that all these crack babies are next to > Krishnimurti? Counter. How can we, in our conceit, say this isn't so? Look at our own generation. I come from generations of farmers;the first to graduate high school; yet I am a designer in research systems for a biotechnology company. A friend of mine came from a similarly poor family in India, attended a Annie Besant school, and has had an exceptional technological career. We don't see what step will appear for the next generation. We're lucky if we see the steps in front of us now. The coming generation was not born for our time, it was born for their own. Pam pgiese@snd.softfarm.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 01:23:48 GMT From: "Elizabeth A Meller" Subject: Isis unveiled I have just begun reading M. Gomes abridgment of Isis Unveiled. I have been very pleasantly surprised by how easily it reads now without all the digressions. I was prepared to be put off by the idea of an abridgment. I would appreciate feedback from any others who might have read it. Liz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:56:22 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Isis unveiled Have you read the original edition of Isis Unveiled? If so how does the abridgment compare to the original? I have not read the abridgment yet. mkr At 01:23 AM 2/4/1998 +0000, you wrote: > >I have just begun reading M. Gomes abridgment of Isis Unveiled. I have been >very pleasantly surprised by how easily it reads now without all the >digressions. I was prepared to be put off by the idea of an abridgment. > >I would appreciate feedback from any others who might have read it. > >Liz From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 00:01:44 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Isis unveiled Elizabeth A. Meller wrote: > I have just begun reading M. Gomes abridgment of Isis Unveiled. I have been > very pleasantly surprised by how easily it reads now without all the > digressions. I was prepared to be put off by the idea of an abridgment. Hi! How have you been doing? I tried calling you several times about 3 years ago, but you never returned the calls. Have you thought about paying the NYTS another visit? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:32:15 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: The Absolute Dear Bjorn: The absolute is introduced to theosophical students by HPB in THE SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. I. I think it is important because while our minds are "human" we are able to think in only so many "wavelengths" (so to speak), and the concepts of Unconditioned Abstract Polarity, or Motion and Space as HPB presents it, are an organized presentation of the limits of our mind's reach currently today. As we develop, we will make substitutes for these concepts which will take on many additional pockets of truth. The mind can be pictured as becoming cosmic when we learn cosmic laws and acquire new constructs - both material and spiritual. >It seems that life consist of two (integrated) compartments: > >1. The uncreated >2. The created Isn't this HPB's manifest and unmanifest? >The intellect may challenge the concept of "uncreated existence". Doesn't everything that exists have >a cause? This would be your word, wouldn't it? The original Creator cannot be created, because there wouldn't >be anything/anybody to create it/him/her. This is your introduction of a third thing which I imagine you would include in the unmanifest category. But isn't our Creator included in both categories? The Creator uses part of its own body to give us life. The following concerns primarily the uncreated realm of >existence, since I believe that an understanding, even though preliminary and incomplete, of that >which is before creation will help us understand changing and evolving life also. That which is before creation is Unconditioned Abstract Space and Unconditioned Abstract Motion. >It follows logically that "something" within the realm of the uncreated is creating whatever is >part of creation. What we call "the Absolute" is obviously a part of the uncreated, even its >foundation. We were satisfied identifying a creator, but the absolute doesn't need to be discussed. We could just discuss the creator. We "understand" that the Absolute is Existence itself, without differentiation or >qualities. There is an eastern trinty of existence, consciousness and bliss. These three would not constitute the absolute though, just something unmanifest because the unmanifest and uncreated does exist, doesn't it? There is no movement or action of any kind in the Absolute. Therefor It can NOT CREATE >anything. It does not do ANYTHING. It just IS. The Absolute is nothing but unlimited potential. It is >NOT the Creator. So, there must be an UNCREATED >something/somebody, that/who is the creating agent. This is what we often call the "Word". >What can we say about the Word? First, it must somehow be connected to the Absolute (otherwise it >would not exist at all). The objection arises: How can something be connected to a no-thing that is >void of all qualities? It would seem a lot safer to me if we just associate the first two abstract concepts that issue forth during manvantara: space and motion. This type of polarity is easier to understand and along with your point can be illustrated with pictures of a blank page, a point, a circle, a line in a circle, a cross in a circle, swastika. Remember this? One thing I see a little differently here is associated with the "outpouring" from the awakened point. I don't really see the circle much until both lines are in place because I think the tendency to reach from one point to another should precede the outpourings from the center. I picture the center point awakened and having just the right amount of energy to reach to a distant point. This would include the motion across space theme. When the distant point is reached, you have attained a radius, not a circle. This substitution is more satisfying to my mind because circle is so radiant and alive. When the subject point is awake and has reached to the object point and established the object point, then the other three points on the circle become a further outreach of space. I like a different illustration of absolute, so we don't really have to qualify it in any way other than saying we have to go back to it. Let's say the absolute is our bed at night, only rather than have the bed slept in continuously and saying we are always rooted in the absolute, let's have a big family that works different shifts and always have one person sleeping in the bed. In this way, we have manifest or waking persons, unmanifest or sleeping person, and a cycle of time. All of the excitement comes out of the absolute, but the absolute is nothing more than space - a place to return to periodically - (and a little cotton and spring for comfort.) What I think is going to happen is that someday we will know more than now and we will have words and better illustrations to explain our lives. We'll be different beings and use different, more progressed definitions. All of that will be replaced - in detail - concerning what happens - exactly. We just have to wait. Bjorn, I'd like to save the rest of your paper for another time because this is getting to long. Just thought you might like to know your paper was appreciated and makes someone like me feel nice and chatty. Bye. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:24:09 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >From: "Pam Giese" >Date: Monday, February 02, 1998 9:46 PM >Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >- From: "Keith Price" >> >> Look around you. Do you see evidence of spirituality (not talk about it >in >> cyber or other space) is on the increase in our politics, society or art? >> Go ahead, give some examples that all these crack babies are next to >> Krishnimurti? > >Counter. How can we, in our conceit, say this isn't so? >Look at our own generation. I come from generations of farmers;the first >to graduate high school; yet I am a designer in research systems for a >biotechnology company. A friend of mine came from a similarly poor family >in India, attended a Annie Besant school, and has had an exceptional >technological career. We don't see what step will appear for the next >generation. We're lucky if we see the steps in front of us now. The >coming generation was not born for our time, it was born for their own. > >Pam >pgiese@snd.softfarm.com > >> Keith: I have heard your point often enough. It is a full good , fuzzy wuzzy feeling kind of argument, like what if there really WASN'T a Santa Claus?? Yes, servity must be balanced with love and wisdom with understanding, yet knowledge is pretty much a repeatable verifiable experiment that yield results again and again whether in the petre dish or in the highest planes of unitive consciousness. The problem is not all this trying to make over a cruel world in the phoney baloney image of the namby pamby liberal mush that has gotten us the horrors from the gang infested streets where Clinton has never been more popular. After all that fucker (an I use that term literally, we can all agree on that) is a victim and Newt Gingrech is a monster because he tried to hold a university class that wasn't politcally correct while Gore raids Buddhist temples. Either me or you need to get a grip, girl and Heaven knows I'm trying! Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 05:19:36 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Injecting MAYA I have been reading James Redfield's THE TENTH INSIGHT. His sources which he acknowledges indirectly are theosohpy, kabala, Eastern gupta-vidya and new age politics. His real talent is not being scholarly or profound, but his ability to popularize a wide knowedge of the ANCIENT WISDOM and apply it to the crises in the modern world without getting strident or apocalyptic ( I could learn from him :) He has two interesting psycholgical ideas that I haven't heard put so well before: 1) negative materialistic dysfunctional people ( and aren't we all from time to time) drain people of their power by attacking their auras so to speak. Positive people give off love energy and build each other up with encouragement and hope. Others are just shut down due to familiy of origin issues and ongoing addictions to power, money, sex, drugs etc. 2) People inject their psychic environments with life scripts which create a comfortable maya or veil of illusion. This is temporarily satisfying, but destructive in the long term because it keeps out real relationships with people, the real lessons of life and access to higher levels of spirituality. In other words, if I am always blaming this group or that, my parents, my spouse, the IRS etc etc I create a veil of poisonous maya circulating around me. This feels comfortable. It is kind of the idea of skandas or patterns brought over from past lives and that continue on after death. The afterlife worlds are temporarily dream like states where one continues to work out life scripts, but on a higher level. In other words the purgatory and heaven worlds are just mirrors of what we put out in this life and we get it right back even in the afterlife for a while (HPB talks about this at length in THE KEY TO THEOSOHPY) The problems with spin these spider like webs of maya or illusion is that one can become trapped in them as a spider in a web ( another common metaphor). People also inject each other's lives with this maya in an insect like manner. I have a chip on my shoulder and I go around poisoning the atmosphere due to my unresolved neurotic knots or skandhas. People are constantly attempting to inject us with their maya and we are always trying to put up a defenisive wall or inject them back so to speak. The solution is to put out love energy. He also has some interesting ideas on soul groups which sounds a lot like Alice Bailey's idea of rays. That is we are born on a certain ray with all the sub-rays active also and we can contact the Masters of that ray in this life and become a "master" on that ray after we die and help or hinder others through dreams, visitations etc. He finally states that the hardest part is "holding the vision" of a better world after one has gained all the "insights" of the spiritual path. Some may turn up their noses. I know I did at first. But I must admit that his maya may be of a very cleansing type that ultimately adds to the solution rather than the problem of maya. Love. peace, understanding may be maya, just one of the syzigies of the manifest world. But I know I need this kind of maya now more than ever. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 08:14:38 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: MAYA and Gnostic article >The problems with spin these spider like webs of maya or illusion is that >one can become trapped in them as a spider in a web ( another common >metaphor). People also inject each other's lives with this maya in an >insect like manner. I have a chip on my shoulder and I go around poisoning >the atmosphere due to my unresolved neurotic knots or skandhas. You talk about people being destructive in both of your posts and I just would like to make a short comment concerning what you wrote and also what I have read in the recent issue of Theosophy World. An article by Rick Taylor points out to us that HPB ignores gnostic groups that are licentious and only focuses on elevating the status of the denegrated REAL gnostics, those who should have been applauded, but were criticized falsely by the Christians. 1. First, I would like to say that what you, Keith, are claiming is MAYA, the I AM Temple refers to as our psychic atmosphere. They are decreeing constantly for the annihilation of all psychism, which to me represents False Thinking. 2. Second, humans who are destructive are to be stopped, as you mention also in reference to Redfield's book. 3. I think it's kind of curious that we are faced with this dilemma of "Who are we doing this for?" I don't like to see theosophy used as a method for a few people to become superior beings. I would much prefer to divide a group into us and them perhaps as if we are doing charitable work. For instance, the group Rick Taylor claims is never quoted by HPB do to their sex habits, seems slightly archaic to me because 1) Perhaps they didn't want to be quoted. Sometimes we don't quote from material that is TOO SACRED as well as that which is inappropriate. 2) Who are we doing this for? When we determine that our meditations are falling on deaf ears, how do we know? If we could all use theosophy as our tool of outreach to those individuals who don't have as much as we do, wouldn't this be the ideal expression of love. We do our life styles and our meditations so that others who are less fortunate can benefit with our radiations or vibrations or whatever, but so that their lives can be blessed and sacred and beneficial ones and not so that we can elevate ourselves above any one group or another. Thanks for sharing. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:05:39 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls Keith and Pam: Keith asks if spirituality is on the increase in politics, society, or art, and indicates that things may be getting bad. Pam replies with personal examples of how things are getting better and suggests that "the coming generation was not born for our time, it was born for their own". Keith then mentions that "what if there really WASN'T a Santa Claus?" He warns that we shouldn't "make over a cruel world in the phoney baloney image of the namby pamby liberal mush". As I see it, the world as we know it -- life on the physical plane -- is neutral. It's neither good nor bad, awful nor wonderful, but like tofu -- it takes on the flavor of whatever you cook it with. The external world is like a blank sheet of paper that takes on whatever you or I put on it. This is not to say that behind things, there aren't higher planes, and there aren't high spiritual beings that oversee external life, providing a sense of natural order to life, and giving an underlying basis of compassion to life. For us as individuals, the world can be a mirror. It'll take on whatever face we bring to it. It is rich in content, full of every possible imaginable thing, like chaos, but *we draw out* certain things into existence about us, we *exteriorize* them. There are both dark and bright sides to life, and like different channels on the TV, we can tune into one or the other. All the channels are real, all are happening, but we pick the one that we're watching, the one that externally becomes real in our living room, our daily life. In life, the world about us is like that initially blank TV screen. We pick the channel, we tune into the type of content and set the nature of our experiences. We can pick an awful channel and say "life is hell" and see it that way and be correct. Some other people can pick wonderful channels and say "life is joyous, blissful, simply great!" and see it that way and also be correct. The important point is that although external life is neutral, it isn't cold, heartless, evil, dark unless we paint it that way, unless we use our powers of mind to project a worldview that sees it that way. The way that we fashion our worldview, and use our mind -- we don't just affect our subjective impressions. We become a source of the light or darkness that we perceive. Others are affected by how we see and experience things. We can become a source of light in the world, or a dark cloud and drain on the life energies of others. It all depends on which channels we watch, on which types of consciousness that we tune into, on how we fashion our self-made experience of life. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 16:41:16 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: American C0-Masonry Website American Co-Masonry, which admits women on equal footing with men, and is not under any foreign control, has set up a website at: http://www.co-masonry.org Anyone interested may want to visit it. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:56:58 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Mars History Here's an interesting note regarding mars, about a billion years ago, when there may have been water. -- Eldon ---- WASHINGTON, Feb 2 (CNN) - NASA officials unveiled a photograph Monday that proves for the first time that there was once a flowing river meandering across the planet. Vice President Al Gore, who was on hand for the unveiling, joked that scientists can now say "a river ran through it." NASA scientists say the photograph does not confirm when the river existed. But they estimate that it was about 1 billion years ago. A second photo also unveiled Monday revealed evidence of horizontal layers on the surface of Mars -- which could prove Mars has something similar to the Grand Canyon in Arizona. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:56:25 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Is This Black Magic? The following is interesting. Does this action constitute black magic? -- Eldon ---- JERUSALEM, Feb 3 (AFP) - A leading rabbinical mystic plans to hold a special prayer in Tel Aviv calling on the angels to protect Israel from an eventual missile attack from Iraq, the rabbi's son said on Tuesday. Rabbi David Batzri, a specialist in the cabala system of Jewish mysticism, will hold the ceremony in the coming days, Moshe Batzri told Israel radio. "My father will go to Tel Aviv to hold special prayers callong on the angels to protect Israel if it is attacked by Saddam Hussein," he said, referring to the Iraqi president. "In the meantime, people must pray once a day and perform good acts" to ward off Iraqi hostility, he said. The Maariv newspaper said Rabbi Batzri also planned, if Iraq fired missiles at Israel, to fly around Israel seven times in a helicopter to deflect the rockets. Iraq fired 39 missiles on Israel during the 1991 Gulf War, killing two persons and wounding hundreds. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:57:29 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Unconscious Agent of Good I think that this shows that it's possible to be an unconscious agent of good forces, even though we may be unaware of it at the time, or not consciously doing it. Better things than we're aware of may find their way into the world through us. -- Eldon ---- PARIS, Feb 3 (AFP) - Sixties protest singer Bob Dylan, renowned for such hard-hitting tracts as "Blowing in the Wind" and "The Times They are a'changin'", admitted to total ignorance about politics in an interview with the British rock magazine, Mojo. "I don't now what politics is, to tell you the truth. I don't know the difference of right-wing or left-wing. I can be whatever they call conservative ... and I can be completely on the left on something," Dylan told Mojo. In a further comment which punctures the image of the singer many associate with angry youth in the 1960s, Dylan also says he never thought he could change the world through his music. "If I wanted to do that I guess I would have gone to school or Harvard or Yale and tried to be a politician or something," the singer said. Dylan also said he didn't want to be seen as an icon of the 1960s, the period when he first came to prominence, remarking: "I do not consider it a compliment. I think that's just another word for a washed-up has-been." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 14:50:30 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: Re:Is This Black Magic? Eldon B Tucker wrote: > > The following is interesting. Does this action constitute black > magic? Seems like he is doing his duty. Whether it is white, grey or black magic may depend on how he is doing it, with what motives and with what consciousness. But the general idea seems to me to be entirely appropriate. Bjorn > > JERUSALEM, Feb 3 (AFP) - A leading rabbinical mystic plans to > hold a special prayer in Tel Aviv calling on the angels to > protect Israel from an eventual missile attack from Iraq, the > rabbi's son said on Tuesday. > > Rabbi David Batzri, a specialist in the cabala system of Jewish > mysticism, will hold the ceremony in the coming days, Moshe > Batzri told Israel radio. "My father will go to Tel Aviv to hold > special prayers callong on the angels to protect Israel if it is > attacked by Saddam Hussein," he said, referring to the Iraqi > president. > > "In the meantime, people must pray once a day and perform good > acts" to ward off Iraqi hostility, he said. > > The Maariv newspaper said Rabbi Batzri also planned, if Iraq > fired missiles at Israel, to fly around Israel seven times in a > helicopter to deflect the rockets. > > Iraq fired 39 missiles on Israel during the 1991 Gulf War, > killing two persons and wounding hundreds. > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 23:35:28 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Unconscious Agent of Good Eldon B Tucker wrote: > I think that this shows that it's possible to be an unconscious > agent of good forces, even though we may be unaware of it at the > time, or not consciously doing it. Better things than we're aware > of may find their way into the world through us. Anybody who is familiar with Bob Dylan's history knows that he was exxagerating. There are enough biographies for anybody who is willing to do the research, but he was very well aware of politics, and very aware of the effects of music. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 23:32:07 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Is This Black Magic? Eldon B Tucker wrote: > The following is interesting. Does this action constitute black > magic? Not by any definition I know of. They are not asking for anybody to be harmed, just for people to be kept safe.Unless you consider the very existence of people in Israel to be, in itself, evil, then praying that missiles do not hit them is certainly not black magic. Also note that Israel has threatened to counter-attack if missiles are used against them; if Israel is protected from missiles, there will be no counter-attack. Which brings MY question: Why did you think it even MIGHT be considered to be black magic? Bart Lidofsky. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:22:37 EST From: "Jim Voirol" Subject: Re:Is This Black Magic? Protecting people from an attack would not be black magic. In Caves and Temples of Hindustan (probably not the exact title) HPB told a story of M. using occult force to protect her traveling party from an attacking tiger. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:53:34 -0800 From: "Mark Kusek" Subject: Re:Is This Black Magic? I'm just curious why you would think that it might be? Is invocation frowned upon by theosophists? Is there no valid context for it in their view? With their deep dependance on the esoteric traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism, do they not hold a practical perspective on the use of the science of the Word? Doesn't that constitute a form of practical occultism? Mark Eldon B Tucker wrote: > > The following is interesting. Does this action constitute black > magic? > > -- Eldon > > ---- > > JERUSALEM, Feb 3 (AFP) - A leading rabbinical mystic plans to > hold a special prayer in Tel Aviv calling on the angels to > protect Israel from an eventual missile attack from Iraq, the > rabbi's son said on Tuesday. > > Rabbi David Batzri, a specialist in the cabala system of Jewish > mysticism, will hold the ceremony in the coming days, Moshe > Batzri told Israel radio. "My father will go to Tel Aviv to hold > special prayers calling on the angels to protect Israel if it is > attacked by Saddam Hussein," he said, referring to the Iraqi > president. > > "In the meantime, people must pray once a day and perform good > acts" to ward off Iraqi hostility, he said. > > The Maariv newspaper said Rabbi Batzri also planned, if Iraq > fired missiles at Israel, to fly around Israel seven times in a > helicopter to deflect the rockets. > > Iraq fired 39 missiles on Israel during the 1991 Gulf War, > killing two persons and wounding hundreds. -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:32:43 +0700 From: "Visanu Sirichote" Subject: Re:Is This Black Magic? Eldon B Tucker wrote: >The following is interesting. Does this action constitute black >magic? It is grey magic that will become pure white if Iraq safety from U.S. and Israel attack is also included in the invocation. Visanu > JERUSALEM, Feb 3 (AFP) - A leading rabbinical mystic plans to > hold a special prayer in Tel Aviv calling on the angels to > protect Israel from an eventual missile attack from Iraq, the > rabbi's son said on Tuesday. > > Rabbi David Batzri, a specialist in the cabala system of Jewish > mysticism, will hold the ceremony in the coming days, Moshe > Batzri told Israel radio. "My father will go to Tel Aviv to hold > special prayers callong on the angels to protect Israel if it is > attacked by Saddam Hussein," he said, referring to the Iraqi > president. > > "In the meantime, people must pray once a day and perform good > acts" to ward off Iraqi hostility, he said. > > The Maariv newspaper said Rabbi Batzri also planned, if Iraq > fired missiles at Israel, to fly around Israel seven times in a > helicopter to deflect the rockets. > > Iraq fired 39 missiles on Israel during the 1991 Gulf War, > killing two persons and wounding hundreds. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 08:31:38 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Re:Is This Black Magic? Mark writes: >I'm just curious why you would think that it might be? >Is invocation frowned upon by theosophists? >Is there no valid context for it in their view? and JVoirol says: Protecting people from an attack would not be black magic My opinion would be that whenever a large mass of people are asked to perform prayers asking angels to perform their defense, you have the possibility of OVER-REACTION among the populace. How do angels act? They act through us. They act harmoniously with nature. They might be called on to prevent attacks in circular fashion, whereby anything goes: flying around in helicopters is just as effective as burning the toast in the morning and other acts people might assume are for the purpose of accomplishing this defense through their prayers and contacts with angels. So now we have people who need to be accomplishing their daily purifications and directing their life energies constructively and instead are accomplishing what any great minister would call upon higher powers to do, not mere human beings. in Eldon's post: >> JERUSALEM, Feb 3 (AFP) - A leading rabbinical mystic plans to >> hold a special prayer in Tel Aviv calling on the angels to >> protect Israel from an eventual missile attack from Iraq, the >> rabbi's son said on Tuesday. >> >> Rabbi David Batzri, a specialist in the cabala system of Jewish >> mysticism, will hold the ceremony in the coming days, Moshe >> Batzri told Israel radio. "My father will go to Tel Aviv to hold >> special prayers calling on the angels to protect Israel if it is >> attacked by Saddam Hussein," he said, referring to the Iraqi >> president. >> >> "In the meantime, people must pray once a day and perform good >> acts" to ward off Iraqi hostility, he said. >> >> The Maariv newspaper said Rabbi Batzri also planned, if Iraq >> fired missiles at Israel, to fly around Israel seven times in a >> helicopter to deflect the rockets. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 08:41:10 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Re:Is This Black Magic? (reply to Bart) Bart: >> The following is interesting. Does this action constitute black >> magic? >Not by any definition I know of. They are not asking for anybody to >be harmed, just for people to be kept safe. >Unless you consider the very >existence of people in Israel to be, in itself, evil, then praying that >missiles do not hit them is certainly not black magic. Also note that >Israel has threatened to counter-attack if missiles are used against >them; if Israel is protected from missiles, there will be no >counter-attack. There are a number of issues regarding the use of magic that could be discussed. The news story I posted was a good opening for a discussion -- if people were interested in the topic. Some questions that come to mind to me as I think about the situation are: Are some weapons so bad that to use them is unethical or wrong -- like biological or nuclear weapons? Is it justified to use them in self-defense, although wrong to use them in offense? Could it be possible that both parties in a conflict consider themselves as battling in a defensive mode, even though the "aggressor" is making a preemptive strike against the other party? And ... is the use of magic or occult forces for military purposes, even in what is seen as national self-defense, something ok? Are occult powers "ethical" weapons like guns and bullets or "unethical" weapons like chemical or biological weapons? Do they provide an unfair advantage, and brutalize the opponent in monstrous ways? Or perhaps they are like land mines, only blowing off soldiers' legs and maiming them if they cross forbidden territory and attempt to invade -- in this case only inflicting harm on people actually involved in attacking one? These are *questions*, not answers, and I'd need to dwell on the subject more before making a statement of my one. What do you think? -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:05:41 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: Re:Re: The Absolute Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > 1. A BACKGROUND which we cannot do away with conceptually is denominated > (for our limited minds at present) the "ABSOLUTE." Or, "ABSOLUTENESS" if > some idea of quality or being is demanded. In point of fact it has no > relation to anything that is either 'created" or "manifest." Yes > > 2. Passing, then, from the ABSOLUTE, the concept of limitation is > introduced. > > First: as an Idea, as a Concept, as a precursor to limitation. > > What dimensions are given to it? The precursor to limitation is not yet manifestation or limitation. It is the active aspect of the Absolute and inseparable from it. It has no dimensions. This is what I called the Word. Only when the Word (primordial vibration) is being "modulated" between its two poles does creation take place, first of the abstract dimensions of time and space, then of increasing complexity of manifestation of form. Note: the only concepts we can form of > it are in terms of our limits, conceptually. So we may say: > > Time limits: duration, eternity. > > Motion: pulsation, vibration, a general tone to which all > else is related > > Space: unlimited universality > > Second: As we are mind beings, we sense that there has to be a principle > in operation, from the very first, that has relation to consiousness, > intelligence, sensation, and memory (as well as anticipation). With this > comes a sense of time, space and motion as "historical " (memory) and > "verifiable" (present time) facts. Anticipation implies a hope for > continuity and that there is a law which predicates effects that are > consequent upon causes generated. So the idea of KARMA seems to begin > there. Any act of creation causes an "imprint" on the receiving end, this imprint becomes a seed for a new creative act and so forth. THis is how I understand the principle of karma. In case of bad karma the imprint "opposes" the whole, the source, and is incompatible with it, good karma means it assists the whole to manifest more of itself. > KARMA is not only the great general law of multiple evolutions (creations), > but > also within any one "creation/evolutionary period" it operates to make > causes and effects balance and harmonize. We see such a balance in Nature, > which Science, researches in all departments. Yes > But in the "moral plane" we find it difficult to relate cause to effect > because we cannot perceive such causes as may have been generated in an > early incarnation of the Spirit/soul of a mind-being. yes > The necessity for multiple mind-beings appears to be a requirement in the > general scheme of evolution, assuming that evolution has for purpose the > generating of minds that are progressively able to encompass the whole > nature and purpose of any evolution/manifestation/creation. I like to see individualization as facetts of a crystal, where the crystal is the totality of the Word in its unlimited non-manifestation. Each surface of a facett refracts the light in a different way and emanates a unique blend of frequencies. The medium surrounding the crystal is manifestation/creation. Each facett interacts with the surrounding medium in its own individual way, although the same crystal is its inner nature. There is no limit to the number of facetts and the size can vary from incredibly small to incredibly big. Why this individualization takes place? Simply because that is THE way to make the most of the unlimited creative potential inherent in the source. > > Third: If to SPIRIT we oppose the polarity of MATTER we have contrast. What is the essential difference between "original spirit" and "original matter"? > Fourth; If SPIRIT and MATTER are to be perceived. a PERCEIVER is > necessary . To my mind this requires a MIND-BEING. Thus the actual point > of differentiation from/within the ABSOLUTE, passes from singularity to a > triad: > SPIRIT, MIND, MATTER. I don't know if this is "right" or "wrong". I just tried to formulate a "stripped down" version of the anatomy of life, introducing a minimum of concepts. Words such as "spirit", "mind", "matter" seem rather diffuse to me (but they can probably be defined). > Would it not be logical to think that such a MIND-BEING would partake more > of the nature of SPIRIT than of matter? This spirit-matter thing is unclear to me. Although, to be accurate, such a > MIND-BEING would also have to learn or acquire the faculty of penetrating > to all and every level of matter? In other words, understanding of our > environment would have to be complete, and one life-time is inadequate. > Hence the concept of REINCARNATION, or multiple births, where the > "mind-soul-spirit" is able to pick up and continue its improvement. I think reincarnation is natures way to deal with calcification. If our forms were more flexible and durable reincarnation would not be such a major thing. Reincarnation becomes less of an issue as we progress. > Question: Why should there be 'forgetfulness' between adjacent lives ? > Why don't we remember our past lives in detail? ] Simply to avoid information overload that would interfer with day-to-day business. > Fifth: If we posit such a MIND-BEING, then it (or they) would have to be > coexistent with SPIRIT and MATTER. Thus an eternal triangle or triad is > necessary for "manifestation" or some limits that radiate from the > ABSOLUTE. ??? > Sixth: The most advanced of such mind-beings would have to be enormously > familiar with the evolutionary processes and therefore be entrusted with > some of its procedures, as over-seers or administrators (under the LAW of > KARMA) -- and part of those duties would consist of the education of infant > and adolescent humanity, until a stage is reached when mankind can begin > assuming the responsibility of educating itself by its own determination > and efforts, each for itself, and incidentally for the benefit of others > around it. yes > 3. The "Word" Verbum Logos, etc... would this not be the idea of > organization which presupposes an earlier one, this, being the reproduction > of the old one at point when it went to "rest ?" The Word is many things, truly the Mystery of Life. What you bring up here is whether the faculty of memory exists at the level of the Word. Very good question. I am guessing probably "yes". > While not completely adopting your terminology, could you agree with some > of my concepts ? Defintely > Could we say perhaps: > > The Absolute is the "Causeless Cause, the Root and sustainer of All. yes > Spirit represents consciousness or intelligence arising from and within the > absolute. Yes, Although what people mean when they talk about "spirit" often is unclear to me. > Mind is the intelligence of all beings in action--the creative or > constructive power. What you say here is that the essence of "Mind" is the same as "the Word". > Matter is substance, from the most ethereal to the most concrete: What about "spiritual substance"? If there is sprirtual creation there must be spiritual "matter", right? > Will is the force of any and all degrees of intelligence; it is inherent > in consciousness as "the power to act." determination (choice) to act > makes it operative. It seems like you are saying that "intelligence has will". I see will as an equal, preexising quality. And you say (I think) that "I Am, therefor I Will to act" . I would say that the awareness that "I am" arises from the interplay of Will and Receptivity. > Why should it be so difficult to understand the Absolute? IT is the > opposite of "Relative." IT includes all things and all beings, and being > the substratum of all, past, present or future. It cannot be inquired into > by any being who exists in IT, and not from IT. It denotes that IT has no > qualities or attributes of any kind, how can we who are limited understand > IT ? Yes, absolutely :) > We are familiar with the term LIFE, and understand that it is expressed in > all forms visible or invisible to us. It is everywhere and penetrates all > things. However as beings we cannot inquire into that power of infinite > expression which each one of us is. We can only express IT according to > the range and level of our particular nature and development. No being > can express Life without being in essence LIFE ITSELF. So with the > ABSOLUTE. > > We can say of the Absolute: IT IS. We can only say of ourselves: "I am." > How can we inquire into that which does not depend on any expression great > or small, but upon solely the fact of Its Universal Presence ? Of > ourselves, we can only say: I am both being and non-being -- our power to > perceive is "non-being," our experiences understood and remembered are our > "being." Yes, although I find the term "non-being" somewhat confusing. Sounds like it does not exist. That is why I was using "uncreated" and "created". We are both uncreated and created being. We can't really be "non-being", since that would not exist. > The absolute is a name for the One Reality, the Infinite, Unchanging basis > for All. The rest is "maya" illusion - the passing scene - with ever > changing modes of expression and degrees of intelligence and forms. They > ever approach the "Light," but they never touch the "Flame." The question here is: "Is all creation maya?" It depends on ones perspective. If one perceives the multide of forms as possessing separate reality one is caught in maya, creation "is" maya. If one sees the absoluteness of reality through the form there is no maya. > I am afraid that some of this sounds very mystical, but don't know how else > to express it. Was fairly understandable. Bjorn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:18:40 -0800 From: "Nicholas Weeks" Subject: Re: Is This Black Magic? >It is grey magic that will become pure white if Iraq safety from >U.S. and Israel attack is also included in the invocation. > >Visanu Motive will determine black or white. Which is what I think you are hinting at. If a knife is used to chop off an arm is that black or white severing? An impossible question -- a knife cannot make karma -- positive, negative or neutral. But if a thug is using the knife in an attempt to injure -- then it is black karma. If a surgeon is using the same knife to remove a gangrenous arm -- then it is white karma. Best, -- Nicholas <> am455@lafn.org <> Los Angeles Divine Wisdom appeals to all who wish to raise themselves and their fellow creatures out of the thoughtless jog trot of selfish everyday life. William Q. Judge From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:21:28 GMT From: "Elizabeth A Meller" Subject: Re:Isis unveiled Ramadoss Thanks for your input. I have not finished the abridgment of Isis. However, I have read the original several times and love it, but it is rather like a mystery novel to me where I find myself looking up and down other paths checking out the ideas that she is unveiling, so to speak, along with her original intentions. With the abridgment, you just get the pure story and it is much easier to read. I do not care for the abridged edition of the Secret Doctrine, but that is a different type of work than Isis. ---------- >From: "M K Ramadoss" >Subject: Re:Isis unveiled >Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:56:22 -0600 > >Have you read the original edition of Isis Unveiled? If so how does the >abridgment compare to the original? I have not read the abridgment yet. > >mkr > >At 01:23 AM 2/4/1998 +0000, you wrote: >> >>I have just begun reading M. Gomes abridgment of Isis Unveiled. I have been >>very pleasantly surprised by how easily it reads now without all the >>digressions. I was prepared to be put off by the idea of an abridgment. >> >>I would appreciate feedback from any others who might have read it. >> >>Liz > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:37:11 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Re:Re: Is This Black Magic? Many early theosophists were members of the Order of the Golden Dawn and Masonry. Even HPB was associated with a branch of European Masonry. In these esoteric orders, invocations in connection the various rituals were a matter of course. If it was OK then, why wouldn't it be OK now? Invocations, that is. Secondly, to visualize a protective white light about oneself for purposes of protection or to invoke the healing devas in the event of illness is not an uncommon practice among occultists nowadays. I do it myself. Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 15:55:17 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Re: Is This Black Magic? You have hit it on the head. Every Hindu ritual contains invocations and most of them ending with invocation for the welfare of Humanity. mkr At 01:37 PM 2/7/1998 EST, you wrote: >Many early theosophists were members of the Order of the Golden Dawn and >Masonry. Even HPB was associated with a branch of European Masonry. In these >esoteric orders, invocations in connection the various rituals were a matter >of course. If it was OK then, why wouldn't it be OK now? Invocations, that is. > >Secondly, to visualize a protective white light about oneself for purposes of >protection or to invoke the healing devas in the event of illness is not an >uncommon practice among occultists nowadays. I do it myself. > >Lmhem111 > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 15:52:34 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Isis unveiled Hi Would look forward to your feedback after you are finished. It would be nice if the Theosophical Classic is available on Internet for free download. I am sure it is only a question of time. mkr At 06:21 PM 2/7/1998 +0000, you wrote: > >Ramadoss > >Thanks for your input. I have not finished the abridgment of Isis. >However, I have read the original several times and love it, but it is >rather like a mystery novel to me where I find myself looking up and down >other paths checking out the ideas that she is unveiling, so to speak, along >with her original intentions. With the abridgment, you just get the pure >story and it is much easier to read. > >I do not care for the abridged edition of the Secret Doctrine, but that is a >different type of work than Isis. > >---------- >>From: "M K Ramadoss" >>Subject: Re:Isis unveiled >>Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:56:22 -0600 >> >>Have you read the original edition of Isis Unveiled? If so how does the >>abridgment compare to the original? I have not read the abridgment yet. >> >>mkr >> >>At 01:23 AM 2/4/1998 +0000, you wrote: >>> >>>I have just begun reading M. Gomes abridgment of Isis Unveiled. I have >been >>>very pleasantly surprised by how easily it reads now without all the >>>digressions. I was prepared to be put off by the idea of an abridgment. >>> >>>I would appreciate feedback from any others who might have read it. >>> >>>Liz >> >> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:40:09 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Is This Black Magic? (reply to Bart) Eldon B Tucker wrote: > Are some weapons so bad that to use them is unethical or wrong -- > like biological or nuclear weapons? Is it justified to use them in > self-defense, although wrong to use them in offense? Could it be > possible that both parties in a conflict consider themselves as > battling in a defensive mode, even though the "aggressor" is > making a preemptive strike against the other party? And ... is the > use of magic or occult forces for military purposes, even in > what is seen as national self-defense, something ok? Are occult > powers "ethical" weapons like guns and bullets or "unethical" > weapons like chemical or biological weapons? Do they provide an > unfair advantage, and brutalize the opponent in monstrous ways? > Or perhaps they are like land mines, only blowing off soldiers' > legs and maiming them if they cross forbidden territory and attempt > to invade -- in this case only inflicting harm on people actually > involved in attacking one? Well, as has been said, intent is always key. Let's look at the intent behind the banning of weapons. The purpose of banning weapons has always been pure selfishness. By limiting war, it prevents a situation where both sides are so badly harmed that a third party can come in and destroy the victor. Therefore, limitations on war actually increase the motivation to stop negotiations for peace, since the damage from war becomes limited. However, there is a point where the average person has no control over whether or not there is a war. The only recourse is to limit the damage that the war does. Israel , from the point of view of the Jews living there, has a policy, sometimes to the point of self-destructiveness, of not attacking until it is first attacked. Therefore, in their mind, protecting Israel from Iraqi attack would also protect Iraq from Israeli attack. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:04:05 -0800 From: "Mike Perala" Subject: Re:Re: The Absolute Bjorn Roxendal wrote: > > Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > > > 1. A BACKGROUND which we cannot do away with conceptually is denominated > > (for our limited minds at present) the "ABSOLUTE." Or, "ABSOLUTENESS" if > > some idea of quality or being is demanded. In point of fact it has no > > relation to anything that is either 'created" or "manifest." > > Yes > > > > > 2. Passing, then, from the ABSOLUTE, the concept of limitation is > > introduced. > > > > First: as an Idea, as a Concept, as a precursor to limitation. > > > > What dimensions are given to it? > > The precursor to limitation is not yet manifestation or limitation. It is the active aspect of the > Absolute and inseparable from it. It has no dimensions. This is what I called the Word. > > Only when the Word (primordial vibration) is being "modulated" between its two poles does creation > take place, first of the abstract dimensions of time and space, then of increasing complexity of > manifestation of form. > > Note: the only concepts we can form of > > it are in terms of our limits, conceptually. So we may say: > > > > Time limits: duration, eternity. > > > > Motion: pulsation, vibration, a general tone to which all > > else is related > > > > Space: unlimited universality > > > > > Second: As we are mind beings, we sense that there has to be a principle > > in operation, from the very first, that has relation to consiousness, > > intelligence, sensation, and memory (as well as anticipation). With this > > comes a sense of time, space and motion as "historical " (memory) and > > "verifiable" (present time) facts. Anticipation implies a hope for > > continuity and that there is a law which predicates effects that are > > consequent upon causes generated. So the idea of KARMA seems to begin > > there. > > Any act of creation causes an "imprint" on the receiving end, this imprint becomes a seed for a new > creative act and so forth. THis is how I understand the principle of karma. In case of bad karma the > imprint "opposes" the whole, the source, and is incompatible with it, good karma means it assists the > whole to manifest more of itself. > > > > KARMA is not only the great general law of multiple evolutions (creations), > > but > > also within any one "creation/evolutionary period" it operates to make > > causes and effects balance and harmonize. We see such a balance in Nature, > > which Science, researches in all departments. > > Yes > > > But in the "moral plane" we find it difficult to relate cause to effect > > because we cannot perceive such causes as may have been generated in an > > early incarnation of the Spirit/soul of a mind-being. > > yes > > > The necessity for multiple mind-beings appears to be a requirement in the > > general scheme of evolution, assuming that evolution has for purpose the > > generating of minds that are progressively able to encompass the whole > > nature and purpose of any evolution/manifestation/creation. > > I like to see individualization as facetts of a crystal, where the crystal is the totality of the Word > in its unlimited non-manifestation. Each surface of a facett refracts the light in a different way and > emanates a unique blend of frequencies. The medium surrounding the crystal is manifestation/creation. > Each facett interacts with the surrounding medium in its own individual way, although the same crystal > is its inner nature. There is no limit to the number of facetts and the size can vary from incredibly > small to incredibly big. Why this individualization takes place? Simply because that is THE way to > make the most of the unlimited creative potential inherent in the source. > > > > > Third: If to SPIRIT we oppose the polarity of MATTER we have contrast. > > What is the essential difference between "original spirit" and "original matter"? > > > > Fourth; If SPIRIT and MATTER are to be perceived. a PERCEIVER is > > necessary . To my mind this requires a MIND-BEING. Thus the actual point > > of differentiation from/within the ABSOLUTE, passes from singularity to a > > triad: > > SPIRIT, MIND, MATTER. > > I don't know if this is "right" or "wrong". I just tried to formulate a "stripped down" version of the > anatomy of life, introducing a minimum of concepts. Words such as "spirit", "mind", "matter" seem > rather diffuse to me (but they can probably be defined). > > > Would it not be logical to think that such a MIND-BEING would partake more > > of the nature of SPIRIT than of matter? > > This spirit-matter thing is unclear to me. > > Although, to be accurate, such a > > MIND-BEING would also have to learn or acquire the faculty of penetrating > > to all and every level of matter? In other words, understanding of our > > environment would have to be complete, and one life-time is inadequate. > > Hence the concept of REINCARNATION, or multiple births, where the > > "mind-soul-spirit" is able to pick up and continue its improvement. > > I think reincarnation is natures way to deal with calcification. If our forms were more flexible and > durable reincarnation would not be such a major thing. Reincarnation becomes less of an issue as we > progress. > > > > Question: Why should there be 'forgetfulness' between adjacent lives ? > > Why don't we remember our past lives in detail? ] > > Simply to avoid information overload that would interfer with day-to-day business. > > > > Fifth: If we posit such a MIND-BEING, then it (or they) would have to be > > coexistent with SPIRIT and MATTER. Thus an eternal triangle or triad is > > necessary for "manifestation" or some limits that radiate from the > > ABSOLUTE. > > ??? > > > > Sixth: The most advanced of such mind-beings would have to be enormously > > familiar with the evolutionary processes and therefore be entrusted with > > some of its procedures, as over-seers or administrators (under the LAW of > > KARMA) -- and part of those duties would consist of the education of infant > > and adolescent humanity, until a stage is reached when mankind can begin > > assuming the responsibility of educating itself by its own determination > > and efforts, each for itself, and incidentally for the benefit of others > > around it. > > yes > > > 3. The "Word" Verbum Logos, etc... would this not be the idea of > > organization which presupposes an earlier one, this, being the reproduction > > of the old one at point when it went to "rest ?" > > The Word is many things, truly the Mystery of Life. What you bring up here is whether the faculty of > memory exists at the level of the Word. Very good question. I am guessing probably "yes". > > > > While not completely adopting your terminology, could you agree with some > > of my concepts ? > > Defintely > > > Could we say perhaps: > > > > The Absolute is the "Causeless Cause, the Root and sustainer of All. > > yes > > > Spirit represents consciousness or intelligence arising from and within the > > absolute. > > Yes, Although what people mean when they talk about "spirit" often is unclear to me. > > > Mind is the intelligence of all beings in action--the creative or > > constructive power. > > What you say here is that the essence of "Mind" is the same as "the Word". > > > > Matter is substance, from the most ethereal to the most concrete: > > What about "spiritual substance"? If there is sprirtual creation there must be spiritual "matter", > right? > > > Will is the force of any and all degrees of intelligence; it is inherent > > in consciousness as "the power to act." determination (choice) to act > > makes it operative. > > It seems like you are saying that "intelligence has will". I see will as an equal, preexising quality. > And you say (I think) that "I Am, therefor I Will to act" . I would say that the awareness that "I am" > arises from the interplay of Will and Receptivity. > > > > Why should it be so difficult to understand the Absolute? IT is the > > opposite of "Relative." IT includes all things and all beings, and being > > the substratum of all, past, present or future. It cannot be inquired into > > by any being who exists in IT, and not from IT. It denotes that IT has no > > qualities or attributes of any kind, how can we who are limited understand > > IT ? > > Yes, absolutely :) > > > We are familiar with the term LIFE, and understand that it is expressed in > > all forms visible or invisible to us. It is everywhere and penetrates all > > things. However as beings we cannot inquire into that power of infinite > > expression which each one of us is. We can only express IT according to > > the range and level of our particular nature and development. No being > > can express Life without being in essence LIFE ITSELF. So with the > > ABSOLUTE. > > > > We can say of the Absolute: IT IS. We can only say of ourselves: "I am." > > How can we inquire into that which does not depend on any expression great > > or small, but upon solely the fact of Its Universal Presence ? Of > > ourselves, we can only say: I am both being and non-being -- our power to > > perceive is "non-being," our experiences understood and remembered are our > > "being." > > Yes, although I find the term "non-being" somewhat confusing. Sounds like it does not exist. That is > why I was using "uncreated" and "created". We are both uncreated and created being. We can't really be > "non-being", since that would not exist. > > > The absolute is a name for the One Reality, the Infinite, Unchanging basis > > for All. The rest is "maya" illusion - the passing scene - with ever > > changing modes of expression and degrees of intelligence and forms. They > > ever approach the "Light," but they never touch the "Flame." > > The question here is: "Is all creation maya?" It depends on ones perspective. If one perceives the > multide of forms as possessing separate reality one is caught in maya, creation "is" maya. If one > sees the absoluteness of reality through the form there is no maya. > > > I am afraid that some of this sounds very mystical, but don't know how else > > to express it. > > Was fairly understandable. > > Bjorn > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:43:34 +0700 From: "Visanu Sirichote" Subject: Re:Re: Is This Black Magic? Nicholas Weeks wrote: >Motive will determine black or white. Which is what I think you are >hinting at. If a knife is used to chop off an arm is that black or white >severing? An impossible question -- a knife cannot make karma -- >positive, negative or neutral. But if a thug is using the knife in an >attempt to injure -- then it is black karma. If a surgeon is using the >same knife to remove a gangrenous arm -- then it is white karma. Yes, it is the motive that counts and our motives are very subtle indeed. White magic was defined by HPB as "Divine magic, devoid of selfishness, love of power, of ambition, or lucre, and bent only on doing good to the world in general, and one's neighbour in particular." Kabalistic doctrines are to be traced to Aryan thought. The Sephiroth or Angels invoked in this system are in the same class as Hindu Deva, some vicious and some good, if a man were to fix his attention upon them in ceremonial magic, he might attract these powers to himself with serious result. HPB warned that "Kabalists who dabble in the ceremonial magic as described and thought by Eliphas Levi, are as full blown Tantrikas as those of Bengal." Even a learned occultist such as Sabba Row died a dreadful death of blood poisoning caused by what he invoked for the benefit of his wife. Is the Gulf War really ended? With continual resentment, fear and enmity between U.S.- Iraq, Israel - Hamas it has been transferred from the plane of the visible to the planes of the invisible merely to return again to the visible in other forms of riot, assassination and terrorism. If increasingly evil force accumulates and the thunder-clouds grow larger and blacker without being dispersed they will eventually burst into a war-storm on the physical plane. It is not by defending ourselves and our country (which is a necessity) by any physical or occult means that wars can be ended, only by thinking and feeling peace in our heart and really to love our enemy will the danger of wars pass, never to return. "How many enemies, measureless as the sky, will I be able to destroy? Yet when the thought of anger is destroyed, all enemies are destroyed" Santideva Best, Visanu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:52:16 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Gratitude Moment I'm drinking my decaffeinated coffee, thinking how cool the internet is. Via the discussion lists, I'm able to interact with theosophists, people who can discuss about the Absolute, sacred geometry, and black magic. I can be a busy person, a bed-ridden person, a fly on the wall, or maybe even incarcerated (do they allow prisoners access?) and still be a part of the conversation, even if it's only as a listener. Theosophists are pretty neat people. The people I live, work and play with daily are not theosophists, with the exception of dear Mark. Granted, theosophists love to argue. But who can argue as well as a theosophist? I thank those who responded to my posts so that I don't feel like I'm typing to nowhere land. I don't always get my answer, but I appreciate the attempt. I understand the time that it takes to respond to a post. I used to be pretty prompt in my responses, but I will just have to be a lagger at this time of my life. Thanks, folks. I love you, wo/man!!! Thoa :o) (being sentimental, because we need more tender emotion expressed in this world) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:38:27 -0700 From: "Lorraine Christensen" Subject: Cyril Scott >From Lorraine Christensen I am interested in doing some research on Cyril Scott. He wrote the trilogy "The Initiate", "The Initiate in the New World" and "The Initiate in the Dark Cycle" He also wrote "Music - Its Secret Influence Throughout the Ages". Does anyone out there have any information on him, or could direct me to where I might obtain information? For example, was he ever a member of the T.S.? Also, does anyone know where I might obtain a copy of yet another book he wrote: "Outline of Modern Occultism" ? Lorraine Christensen henningc@quenet.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:21:22 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: Blocks of ice Q. When Tyndall* took a large block of ice and threw a powerful ray upon it and thence on to a screen, there were to be seen the forms of ferns and plants in it. What is the reason for this? *(Professor John Tyndall b. 1820) A. .......Occultism would explain it by saying either that the ray helped to show the astral shapes which were preparing to form future ferns and plants, or that the ice had preserved the reflection of actual ferns and plants that had been reflected in it. Ice is a great magician, whose occult properties are as little known as those of Ether. .....This is well known to the learned Yogis who dwell on the eternal ice of Bodrinath and the Himalayas. At any rate, ice has certainly the property of retaining images of things impressed on its surface under certain conditions of light, images which it preserves until it is melted. .... in decomposing the ice with heat you deal with the forces and the that were impressed on it, then you find that it throws off these images and the forms appear. It is but one link leading to another link. H.PB. Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge. "When Steiner noted that the icy crystals that form in winter on the panes of windows are different on a flower shop from those appearing on the windows of a butcher shop, he suggested to Pfeiffer and to another of his early followers, Lily Kolisko, that they experiment in the lab with the formation of crystals as a means of demonstrating what he called the "formative forces" in nature." Secrets of the Soil, Tompkins and Bird, 1989 "I hold a block of ice. I admire its crystalline, glassy, qualities. I examine the fractures within. I acknowledge the sharp, but numbing coldness. I witness the steam which arises. I feel the water as it drips from the ice-block. I watch the deterioration of form. More water, less block. Finally there is a small pool of water. After then, with evaporation, the water is no more . . . I am left with nothing. From this what have I learnt? Practically nothing, for I have missed all of the points of observance. For one thing, I have seen nothing new to awaken me to a special interest. For another, I am impatient for the ice to melt and for the examination to be over. I have seen before this phenomena and I am impatient with it. I am not truly concerned with the nature of the water so held, as it makes its marvelous transformations. And yet from this small example one is offered great distinctions in the process of manifestation. And not purely distinctions of form and its relation to degree of temperature, but of form itself, and of the nature of water. I am required to seek out the originals of the original ice-block, that might enable me to cast yet another and complete the cycle. If I were to do this repeatedly, one would assume that the mundaneness of the experiment would overtake me all the more. But interestingly, it would become ever more fascinating. And if I persisted long and hard enough, being witness to this phenomena, the water would of itself, give counsel to me, and make great explanations. Key # 2 is perseverance. Key # 3 is patience, and a willingness to listen. You may try the examination of the ice-block daily, and make notes concerning your observances. From this we may learn to examine and observe, and also something of water, and something of water-speak. Have you ever tried to water your pot-plants with ice-blocks? Men are known to water themselves with ice-blocks. Forget the notion that ice serves us in order to simply keep our food and drinks cold. One must find out what occurs at 0 degrees C and then test the example as many ways possible." -Mr. B.Hive Bruce From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:06:54 -0800 From: "Nicholas Weeks" Subject: HPB on Magic "The difference between White and Black Magic is very difficult to realize fully, as both have to be judged by their motive, upon which their ultimate, though not their immediate, effects depend, even though these may not come for years. Between the `right and the left hand [Magic] there is but a cobweb thread,' says an Eastern proverb." Blavatsky:*Collected Writings* 14, 106 -- Nicholas <> am455@lafn.org <> Los Angeles Divine Wisdom appeals to all who wish to raise themselves and their fellow creatures out of the thoughtless jog trot of selfish everyday life. William Q. Judge From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 21:38:12 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: Re:Gratitude Moment Thoa Tran wrote: > Granted, > theosophists love to argue. But who can argue as well as a theosophist? Maybe a sophist? And, thanks for such a heartfelt message, Thoa! Bjorn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 21:53:51 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: Re:Cyril Scott I think Govert knows a lot about Cyril Scott. Hello, Govert, are you here? Henning Christensen wrote: > > >From Lorraine Christensen > > I am interested in doing some research on Cyril Scott. He wrote the > trilogy "The Initiate", "The Initiate in the New World" and "The > Initiate in the Dark Cycle" He also wrote "Music - Its Secret > Influence Throughout the Ages". > > Does anyone out there have any information on him, or could direct me > to where I might obtain information? For example, was he ever a member > of the T.S.? > > Also, does anyone know where I might obtain a copy of yet another book > he wrote: "Outline of Modern Occultism" ? > > Lorraine Christensen > henningc@quenet.com > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 22:07:19 PST From: "Sophia TenBroeck" Subject: Re: Repeat apology Re: Sai Baba Dear Nicholas, My server connection brokedown just when I was sending you and apology for addressing you regarding Sai Baba--and stayed down for 9 days !. Therefore I am not sure whether the letter went through or not. So again I am sending this to say I am sorry for mistaking you for Bart. Better twice than not at all ! Fraternally, Sophia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:03:24 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Gratitude Moment Feb 9th 1998 Dear Thoa:o Glad to read your note -- I think that we are all students of vast Nature. By implication "theos-sophist" (lover of truth) has also to be a "Phil-anthropist"(lover of mankind). If philosophy and speculation are not tempered with humor, then the world and all evolution are quite pointless and at best a very sorry place. But there is always hope. If we grasp however slightly the great principles of living (of which our lives are only somewhat less than half) then we can see and appreciate continuous values. The accidents and the trials of having to live In a world that does not recognize or apply very well the best of the rules of life (as for instance the simple but basic: give unto others that which you would desire them to give to you) -- its we who have to make the effort. We have to be the "stone" that falls into the surface of the "Present" as it whizzes past us, so that the "Future" may be pleasantly rippled. The effort always starts with us, and the ripples go everywhere affecting those who are near and everyone else -- all beings in fact. I was (2 weeks ago) looking at a review of a book which scientifically takes into account the fact that thoughts, feelings, being acts, flow out touch and affect the whole Universe and all things in it. In fact, the effort we might put into pushing a plate across the table, is to set into motion an energy that overcomes the inertial resistance of the whole Universe as focused a the point of rest of that plate. I thought that was quite a wonderful point to think about, So why not devote some time to looking for paradox, humor, and fun in Theosophy, as well as being solemn and deeply pondering ? All the best to all of us, Dallas Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc.net (818) 222-8024 23145 Park Contessa, Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:59:20 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Re:Cyril Scott To Lorraine Christensen: Cyril Scott, H.K. Challoner, David Anrias (Brian Ross) and Vera Stanley Adler were sort of clique (for lack of a better word) within the orbit of the Theosophical Movement. They used to pal around with one another and even vacation together with their families in England. Their presentations of theosophy were colored by the Alice Bailey teachings. As a composer, Cyril Scott, like Scriabin, was influenced by the teachings of theosophy. He considered Thomas More and the Master Kuthumi to be his gurus. For a full accounting of his life, read his biography, BONE OF CONTENTION. He also wrote an interesting book on the esoteric influence of music. I pulled the following biographical information from the British Music Society: Cyril Scott was a man of many parts - pianist, composer, poet and philosopher. He explained this quite simply in saying that a composer has times when his creative powers are at a low ebb and if he can occupy his mind with something other than music it makes those periods a little more tolerable. In Scott s case he turned his attention to poetry, occultism and unorthodox medicine, but I would suggest that readers who have not got an open mind where the latter two subjects are concerned should forget all about Scott's interest in such matters, go straight to his music and accept it for what it is. As many of Scott's personal papers were lost during the second war and his autobiography is not written giving precise dates and accounts of events in chronological order, it is sometimes difficult to piece together the life of this unusual and gifted man. However, we do know that he was born on September 27th 1879 at Oxton near Birkenhead, the third child of Henry Scott and Mary Scott, n e Griffiths. His father was a business man but unlike most business men he was never really interested in making lots of money, his chief interest in life being Greek, He was in fact a Greek scholar. At an early age Cyril took piano lessons and after a visit to the Philharmonic Hall, Liverpool to hear Paderewski he was resolved to become a musician. When only twelve years old he went to Frankfurt where he studied piano with Herr Uzielli, who had been a pupil of Mme. Schumann, and theory with Herr Humperdinck. Returning home to Liverpool to receive general education Scott developed a firm friendship with Hans Luthy who was an agnostic and before Scott left for Frankfurt again Luthy had introduced him to agnosticism thus planting seeds of doubt about his own religious convictions. It was through Luthy that Scott became agnostic, later to be occultist. On returning to Frankfurt Scott studied composition with Iwan Knorr who was reputed to have been one of the finest composition teachers of his time. Then sixteen years old Scott composed a Piano Trio for his first lesson with Knorr. "An indication of talent. The effort is considerable but as a work of art it is nothing", said Knorr. Scott spent three years studying with Knorr who never discouraged his individuality. During these three years he was associated with Roger Quilter, Norman O Neill, Percy Grainger and Balfour Gardiner and all later became known as the "Frankfurt Group". Returning home to Liverpool for the second time Scott gave recitals, the result of which was that he took two pupils at half a guinea per lesson. He managed to compose a Piano Concerto which was later consigned to the dustheap and met another friend, Dr. Charles Bonnier, Professor of French Literature at the University College. This friendship, along with that of Stefan George in Frankfurt, proved useful to Scott when he began writing poetry and libretti. It was incidentally, at the suggestion of Stefan George that William de Haan gave the first performance of the Symphony which Scott was daring enough to write whilst still a student. Other early performances included the Heroic Suite given by Hans Richter in Manchester and Liverpool but it was a chamber music venture which brought Scott into the London limelight with Kreisler playing the violin part in his Piano Quartet. In London Scott moved in society and gave recitals at the Bechstein Hall Robert Elkin, the publisher, offered him a contract whereby Scott had to write a certain number of works for publication each year. This produced some pot-boilers but Elkin had taken up an enfant terrible - a young composer who defied academic traditions. He did him no disservice but it was the pot-boilers which later proved awkward for the young artist. It was through a friend in London that Scott met Debussy and Ravel and he gives a brief account of these meetings in his autobiography. However before his visits to Debussy ended, a publisher wishing to get some opinions of Scott for publication asked Debussy to write something. Debussy did Scott a great service in writing, "Cyril Scott is one of the rarest artists of the present generation ..." Other celebrities Scott was acquainted with were Arnold Bennett, H.G. Wells, George Moore (who thought well of Scott s book, The Philosophy of Modernism ), Stefan George, with whom Scott had a strong friendship ending in George approving of Scott s translations of his poems, and George Bernard Shaw who related that on one occasion when speaking to Elgar he had said, "Why, Elgar, for a British composer you have become quite daring in your harmonies of late". Elgar replied, "Yes, but don t forget it was Scott who started it all". Scott had only met Elgar once for a few moments and never knew he took the slightest interest in his work. It was also in London that Scott first realized that Theosophy was worth looking into after having heard Annie Besant lecture. He joined the Theosophical movement and as a result contacted a number of gifted seers and occultists. Scott had some interesting views about style, fashion and other composers which were elaborated in his book Music: Its Secret Influence Throughout the Ages He maintained that composers are by no means the best judges of other composers and that the only group of people who listen to music with unprejudiced minds are the cultured amateurs. One of his confessions was that much of accepted great music bored him. He pleaded guilty to not having progressed with the times but stated that he had progressed along the line and within the limits of his own particular idiom as all creative artists should. His own style evolved subconsciously and is based on no school or theory and he did not deliberately attempt to express through his music any occult or mystical facts. To mark Scott's seventieth birthday the BBC gave two of his larger works a hearing which Scott thought were not representative. The BBC were unconcerned and sent a letter to his publisher stating that, in effect, whilst they conceded that Scott could write salon pieces of pleasing character his more serious works were not the type of music that organization wished to further. But he received many good wishes and articles appeared in music journals. In 1951 the Music Teachers Association gave a concert entirely of s works, recent works at that, and Francois D Albert came to play the then recently composed Sonata Melodica (violin and piano). By the time he reached his eightieth birthday Scott continued to write music without worrying at all about the prospects of performance and Norman Demuth wrote, "A prophet is often unhonoured in his own country but the complete neglect of Scott is something inexplicably. Francois D Albert became President of the Chicago Conservatory of music and arranged a concert of Scott's music there. In 1958 Dr. Vernon Griffiths at the University of Canterbury, New Zealand, organized a Cyril Scott Festival being a series of concerts of chamber music, piano pieces and songs. The BBC gave illustrated talks and Edmund Rubbra, one time pupil of Scott gave his own tribute. The BBC also included a programme of songs all written long ago, including one or two pot-boilers which did nothing for Scott's reputation. In his autobiography Scott does make a point of mentioning that he bore no grudge as far as the BBC was concerned because they had misrepresented rather than neglected. It was also during his eightieth year that he was made Hon. Mus. Doc. Fellow by The International Academy World Fraternity of Scholars. Having completed his autobiography in 1959 Scott had, in 1969, to add an Afterword in which he told of the formation of the Cyril Scott Society at the suggestion of W.R. Pasfield. The Society arranged its first concert in the Duke s Hall at the Royal Academy of music in 1962 in which John Ogdon played the Piano Sonata No. 3 and Scott received a standing ovation. Peter Pears, Edmund Rubbra and the Alberni String Quartet also took part but sadly the society has been unable to stay active. Also in 1969, Chicago Conservatory of Music honoured Scott with an Hon. Mus. Doc. - that kind of degree never having been accorded in his own country. Often rewarded as a bone of contention in his youth, Scott lived to gain the respect he so richly deserved. Cyril Scott, composer of serious music and writer has influenced my own outlook considerably. I did not have the privilege of meeting him during his life time but I believe I came to know the man through his late music. In listening to his Pastoral Ode (1961), Piano Sonata No. 3 (1956), the Flute Sonata (1961), the Piano Concerto No. 2 and the last string quartets one hears the true voice of Cyril Scott. I do not think one could find a more sincere or self effacing artist in British music. Stuart Scott Editor's Note - It would be good to have an article from someone who has researched the voluminous orchestral music: Symphony No 3 The Muses (1939); Violin Concerto (1928); Cello Concerto (1931); Sinfonietta for Strings (1962) etc. Further Listening - Cyril Scott Piano Concertos ˝ long deleted Lyrita LPs SRCS81/82 (1975, 1977; John Ogdon, LPO, Bernard Herrmann - much missed and long overdue for reissue). Orchestral Music selection CD Marco Polo 8.223485. Piano Music collections Christopher Howell, Tremula TREM104-2 (available Tremula, PO Box 1491, Windsor, Berks SL4 2PE) and deleted CD by Dennis Hennig Etcetera KTC1132. The BMS has an excellent cassette BMS 401 of Piano Sonata No 3 (Raphael Terroni) also the Piano 5tet on BMS411 (Terroni and Bingham 4tet). Both available from Hon Treasurer. Further reading: Ian Parrott s book on the Scott piano music (Thames Publishing). Scott's autobiography "Bone of Contention" (1969) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:54:04 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Cyril Scott At 10:59 AM 2/9/1998 EST, you wrote: >To Lorraine Christensen: > >other than music it makes those periods a little more tolerable. In Scott s >case he turned his attention to poetry, occultism and unorthodox medicine, but >I would suggest that readers who have not got an open mind where the latter >two subjects are concerned should forget all about Scott's interest in such >matters, go straight to his music and accept it for what it is. > I have read his book on Vinegar and consider it one of the best in the market. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:09:39 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Blocks of ice Hmmm, very interesting. However, in California, we have plenty of water and deluge, but no ice. I'll have to rely on my freezer. Thoa :o) Mr. BHive: >Q. When Tyndall* took a large block of ice and threw a powerful ray upon it >and thence on to a screen, there were to be seen the forms of ferns and >plants in it. What is the reason for this? >*(Professor John Tyndall b. 1820) >A. .......Occultism would explain it by saying either that the ray helped to >show the astral shapes which were preparing to form future ferns and plants, >or that the ice had preserved the reflection of actual ferns and plants that >had been reflected in it. Ice is a great magician, whose occult properties From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:11:04 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Re:Gratitude Moment Dallas: >So why not devote some time to looking for paradox, humor, and fun in >Theosophy, as well as being solemn and deeply pondering ? > > All the best to all of us, >Dallas Dallas, I wholeheartedly agree. Actually, that's more of my nature. Lately, however, time will only allow me to make short points. I believe that it is through "paradox, humor, and fun" that we are able to see the whole picture. When looking at something, I wonder about the other side of the coin, and whether each side contains a little bit of each. It is through fun that we see the possibilities of things, that it can be more than what it is. When we were children, we think of a box as a million things, a spaceship, a boat, a house, etc. As we grow older, a box no longer suffices. We don't want a crappy box, we want that mysterious Mega-tron that would shoot bullets and costs $100.00. As we grow even older, that Mega-tron becomes a limited plastic toy that feebly shoots bullets, and we long for that speed boat. If we stop having fun, then that is what life will be, a series of short goals that we become disenchanted with once we've reached them. By having fun as adults, we can still look at that box and see psyionic transmitters. Fun enables us to throw up our arms and do a crazy dance, when things don't go our way. As they say, it's the journey that counts. Best to you, too. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:51:13 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: TS in America Early last year there were discussions on theos-l about the Mission of TS based on an article published in the Messenger -- the Official Publication of TSA which is sent to all members at-large of TSA. Subsequently I ran into two other instances where the aim of TS was introduced which gave me some concern if the mission of TS has changed. I communicated this concern to the National Board of Directors of TSA and received a response today from the National President. I am posting my letter to the National Board and the response from the Board and my reply. You be the judge and make up your mind on the matter. mkr ===================================================================== My Initial Letter: December 10, 1997 National President and Elected Members of Board of Directors Theosophical Society in America Wheaton, IL Dear Brother: For any organization, for its long term growth and survival, it is very important that its key mission is presented to the public and the membership reminded of it in a very simple unambiguous manner giving no chance for any misinterpretation or for any confusion. When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. In the early days of TS, the question whether the Universal Brotherhood mission of TS was the right one was raised from time to time. At one juncture, A P Sinnett raised it with one of the Real Founders. In response, the Maha Chohan, who was the Boss of the Founders was consulted. His response was put down in a letter. This letter is considered as one of the most important by every leader of TS starting with HPB onwards. It is considered as the Charter for TS. In it is stated: "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, that of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." In the light of the above, when I recently saw a statement by Bro. John Algeo, our National President I was very shocked and disappointed. In the letter published in Quest (1997) Holiday Gift Catalog he states: "The books and audios in this catalog come from the publishing arm of the Theosophical Society, a nondenominational organization devoted to helping its members: realize their inner potentials and seek out the mysteries of the universe" followed by two other items. The above statement would lead the uninformed reader to conclude that the mission of TS is to help everyone to work towards the selfish goal of realizing inner potentials and seeking out the mysteries of the universe.. Some time ago, in "The Messenger" which is edited by Bro. John Algeo and sent to all at-large members of TS, an unsigned serial article titled "Theosophy in a New Key", talks about three aims. It says that "The second aim of the Society is to offer its members a way of transforming themselves, of achieving the purpose of our evolution, of discovering who they really are. The third aim of the Society actually the first in importance is to bring together a group of people who are informed about the principles of the Wisdom Tradition, who have begun the work of self-transformation, and who are dedicated to cooperating with the elders and assisting in their work." [In reference to elders there is a discussion about the Mahatmas.] When I visited the TSA Internet WWW, I saw the following statement: "The Quest is published by the Theosophical Society in America, the American section of a worldwide organization promoting the comparative study of religion, philosophy, and science." When one considers all of the above it is very clear that wrong messages are being sent about the mission of TS. They tend to attract selfish persons seeking personal development and personal goals or scholarship with no interest in the "Orphan Humanity" or Universal Brotherhood. I do not know how much harm it has already done to TS in the United States. If this continues, more and more wrongly motivated selfish individuals would be joining the TS and it is only a question of time for TSA to be wrecked by its selfish membership who have no interest in Universal Brotherhood. I think the situation is a very serious one and needs swift and decisive action. Firstly the seriousness of the situation has to be recognized. Once this is done, a plan has to be developed to adopt a strategy to send the simple message that the mission of TS is to establish a nucleus of Universal Brotherhood. This message should be sent to our current members as well as to the public and frequently reinforced at every opportunity, in the hope that any wrong ideas that the membership and public may have formed is corrected promptly. When I brought the statement in the Quest Catalog and the article in The Messenger to the attention of Bro. Algeo, I received a one line response from him which did not address any of the above issues. I sent you all a copy of his letter which you should have received by now. In the light of the above, I think that the issues require very serious consideration at the level of Board of Directors. Hence I hereby formally request that it be included in the agenda of the upcoming meeting of the Board of Directors of TSA. As the issues raised above may have policy and other ramifications relative to the International Rules, I am copying this letter to Bro. Radha Burnier, our International President. With regards Fraternally yours, M K Ramadoss Member TSA, San Antonio Lodge Encls: 1. Maha Chohan Letter. 2. John Algeo's Letter in the Quest 1997 Holiday Catalog. 3. The Messenger - February 1996. 4. Print out from TSA Internet WWW. ================================================================ 2. John Algeo's reply regarding the decision of the Board of Directors: Wednesday, February 4, 1998 Dear Mr. Ramadoss: Your communication of December 10th was discussed at the January meeting of the National Board of Directors. Their unanimous conclusion what that the concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the intent of the documents you cite and is unwarranted. Sincerely yours, John Algeo National President ======================================= 3. My response to John Algeo: February 9, 1998 By First Class Mail, e-mail to theos@netcom.com, and Fax to 630-668-4976 John Algeo National President Theosophical Society in America 1926 North Mail Street Wheaton IL 60189-0270 Dear Bro. Algeo: I have just received your letter of February 4, 1998 informing me that TSA Board of Directors discussed my letter (regarding the mission of TS) of December 10, 1997 at the January meeting and that the Board concluded that the concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the intent of the documents I cited and is unwarranted. I do not agree with the conclusion and the reasoning based on which the Board reached the conclusion. Hence, I am going to leave it to the members and the interested public to decide for themselves, as I believe they are intelligent enough to make up their own minds whether the concern is the result of misreading and/or whether the concern in unwarranted. With regards, Fraternally yours, M. K. Ramadoss Member TSA San Antonio Lodge ===========================end========================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:50:05 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Brotherhood of Humanity M K Ramadoss wrote: > Subsequently I ran into two other instances where the aim of TS was > introduced which gave me some concern if the mission of TS has changed. I > communicated this concern to the National Board of Directors of TSA and > received a response today from the National President. I am posting my > letter to the National Board and the response from the Board and my reply. Ever hear the story of the 6 blind men and the elephant? Well, if you are trying to reach out to an organization devoted to tails, you don't try to tell them about the elephant's trunk. But that doesn't mean that you aren't interested in the whole elephant. There are many aspects to the Theosophical Society. When telling people about the Society, or Theosophy, you need to tell them those aspects which would interest them, without hiding those aspects that might turn them away. That leaves a LOT of aspects unsaid. However, let's turn this into a real discussion: What, in your opinion, does "Brotherhood of Humanity" mean? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 23:37:33 -0800 From: "Mark Kusek" Subject: A New Release from Without Walls A New Graphic Release from Without Walls: The Boundless (132k) http://www.withoutwalls.com/Boundless.jpg -- A little reminder for the millenial world. Don't miss these other Without Walls theos links: http://www.withoutwalls.com/artwork -- An archive of images from the Wisdom Tradition http://www.withoutwalls.com/Mystery/Question.html -- The Answer to all of Life's Greatest Questions keeping it real. -- M -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:14:17 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:Brotherhood of Humanity ---------- > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > Subject: Brotherhood of Humanity > > However, let's turn this into a real discussion: > > What, in your opinion, does "Brotherhood of Humanity" mean? > > Bart Lidofsky > well... it would help if you actually read the whole sentence. :-) the concept is to help eliminate the various and primary causes of Humanity's disrest and sufferrings (causes are as stated in the object itself) a few examples... support more parliaments of the world religions support nation-states to eliminate despotism and social slavery support efforts to feed, clothe, educate all who are in need the list is endless.... you *well* know what it means don't you??? (MHO - I am assuming you are playing a rather silly rhetorical game) i.e. help create a world-wide state of mind where the primary business of humanity is *humanity*. ever read a book on humanist thought? of course the statement you want to make is that it is such an overwhelming all-encompassing task that it is meaningless to bring it to the attention of the public? if so... bull-s*** if the TSA leadership can't lead they should get out of the way. john e. m. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:18:46 -0700 From: "Lorraine Christensen" Subject: Cyril Scott (from) Lorraine Christensen Many thanks to Govert Schuller, Lmhem111 and others for providing me with much useful information on Cyril Scott. For those interested, The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music (1980) has included a favourable entry on Cyril Scott. Some of the music he wrote earned him the title of "English Debussy". This is interesting to note because from the biographical information that Lmhem111 pulled from the British Music Society Debussy is quoted as saying in writing that "Cyril Scott is one of the rarest artists of the present generation ......" I would like to make a personal observation that I see Theosophy as having produced talented, worthy people in all spheres of labour. For example, from Ted Davy in his article in Fohat - Winter 1997 issue: "Early Canadian Theosophists and Social Reform" I quote the following: "The beginning of the long but ultimately successful struggle to obtain votes for women was due in no small part to the initiative and strenuous efforts of two early Canadian Theosophists, both charter members of the Toronto Theosophical Society. One, Dr. Emily Stowe (1831-1903) was the first woman doctor to practice in Canada, but who had to train for her profession in the U.S.A.; the other was her daughter, Dr. Augusta Stowe-Gullen (1857-1943), the first woman to graduate from a Canadian medical college." Lorraine Christensen henningc@quenet.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:50:16 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:TS in America ---------- > From: "M K Ramadoss" > Subject: TS in America > Date: Monday, February 09, 1998 10:51 PM > > > > You be the judge and make up your mind on the matter. > > mkr > ===================================================================== > My Initial Letter: > > > December 10, 1997 > > > National President > and Elected Members of Board of Directors > Theosophical Society in America > Wheaton, IL > > > > Dear Brother: > > For any organization, for its long term growth and survival, it is very > important that its key mission is presented to the public and the > membership reminded of it in a very simple unambiguous manner giving no > chance for any misinterpretation or for any confusion. > > When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real > Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. > In the early days of TS, the question whether the Universal Brotherhood > mission of TS was the right one was raised from time to time. At one > juncture, A P Sinnett raised it with one of the Real Founders. In response, > the Maha Chohan, who was the Boss of the Founders was consulted. His > response was put down in a letter. This letter is considered as one of the > most important by every leader of TS starting with HPB onwards. It is > considered as the Charter for TS. In it is stated: > > "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are > expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, that > of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! > No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long > already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to > grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task > too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society > unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of > outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and > unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our > knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." > > It seems clear that the TSA now wants to have a different purpose for the TSA than that of the original founding Brotherhood??!! I think the TSA leaders should spend several weeks with someone who really lives and believes in the First Object... like maybe the Dalai Lama??? (Is it relevent to point out that the ES also ignores (in fact is *defined* to ignore) the first and foremost Object also? maybe not... Hmmmm... the Dalai Lama doesn't even meet their requirements. we would have to find someone more spiritual and worthy that would/could meet their requirements). peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:58:11 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Brotherhood of Humanity John E Mead wrote: > > What, in your opinion, does "Brotherhood of Humanity" mean? > > well... it would help if you actually read the whole sentence. :-) No problem; it was not intended as a trick question, or even one that everybody will answer in the same way. I once pointed out that the TS does have one dogma: That there IS a brotherhood of humanity. It was pointed out to me, though, that "brotherhood of humanity" can mean different things to different people. For example, it could simply mean that we are all related to each other. It can mean that we are all part of a given whole, so that not only are you your brother's keeper, you are your brother. > the concept is to help eliminate the various and primary causes of > Humanity's > disrest and sufferrings (causes are as stated in the object itself) In my own opinion, that certainly covers part of it. > a few examples... > > support more parliaments of the world religions I like that. > support nation-states to eliminate despotism and social slavery I am really (no sarcasm) not sure what that means. Could you elaborate? > support efforts to feed, clothe, educate all who are in need Blavatsky, in her article "Hypnotism" actually covers those who might consider that interfering with the karma of others; she uses the example of a doctor in a prison, who cannot commute the sentences, but at least makes the prisoners a little more comfortable. > the list is endless.... you *well* know what it means don't you??? > (MHO - I am assuming you are playing a rather silly rhetorical game) No, actually, as I pointed out, there are many possible ways to look at the brotherhood of humanity. I think that having people state what they mean by it is a very useful point of discussion among Theosophists. > of course the statement you want to make is that it is such an overwhelming > all-encompassing task that it is meaningless to bring it to the attention > of the public? if so... No. But it is such an overwhelming and all-encompassing task that it needs to be brought out in forms that will reach the highest number of people. Also, consider that a basic understanding of how the universe works will bring on an understanding of the brotherhood of humanity. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:17:58 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Re:TS in America >> When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real >> Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. This is incorrect. The idea in the first object is misstated and misunderstood by Ramadoss because he is shortening the form of it. It is not to form a Universal Brotherhood or to accent the "Brotherhood of Humanity" as the Maha Chohan states, but to "form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood." When I form a nucleus, not all existing parts of society are included in this nucleus, some elements of the TS may exist in the electrons and some foreign elements may exist alongside our "atom," but not be considered part and party of our "atom." Please don't misstate the first object by saying it is: Brotherhood, Brotherhood of Man, or Universal Brotherhood, because it is not. >> In the early days of TS, the question whether the Universal Brotherhood >> mission of TS was the right one was raised from time to time. At one >> juncture, A P Sinnett raised it with one of the Real Founders. In >response, >> the Maha Chohan, who was the Boss of the Founders was consulted. His >> response was put down in a letter. This letter is considered as one of >the >> most important by every leader of TS starting with HPB onwards. It is >> considered as the Charter for TS. In it is stated: >> >> "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are >> expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, >that >> of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! >> No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long >> already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to >> grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a >task >> too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society >> unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of >> outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and >> unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our >> knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." >From John Mead's letter: >It seems clear that the TSA now wants to have a different purpose for the >TSA than that of the original founding Brotherhood??!! > >I think the TSA leaders should spend several weeks with someone who really >lives and believes in the First Object... like maybe the Dalai Lama??? > >(Is it relevent to point out that the ES also ignores (in fact is *defined* >to ignore) the first and foremost Object also? maybe not... >Hmmmm... the Dalai Lama doesn't even meet their requirements. we would >have to find someone more spiritual and worthy that would/could meet their >requirements). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:07:28 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:Brotherhood of Humanity > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > Subject: Re:Brotherhood of Humanity > Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 1:58 PM > > ... I once pointed out that the TS does have > one dogma: That there IS a brotherhood of humanity. hmmmm... I kinda like that. :-) john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:51:21 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: TS in America I find all this to be sad, particularly sad because of the lack or refusal of communication. As somewhat of an outsider and no loyalty to either side, I have some comments and questions. I'm ready to be flamed. What is the Theosophical Society? What sets it unique from other organizations? One of its object (let's say, the first) is to promote the Brotherhood of Humanity. Another of its object (say, second) is to discover the mysteries and the truth. If we focus on the first object, we can do volunteerism, etc., without enriching our knowledge of the mysteries of life. Why would I need the T.S. for that? There are countless organizations that I could lend a hand to that is devoted purely to service, no scholarship needed, no theosophical rules and politic required. If I focus on the second object, I would be greatly stimulated by little inklings of the mysteries that I learned and comprehended. The danger of that is that I could have all this great knowledge without doing anything to promote the Brotherhood of Humanity. On the other hand, would not knowing the mysteries open one up to the Brotherhood of Humanity? Certainly, a true student of occultism would realize this, and not just focus on the power aspects of occultism. For me, an inkling of the mystery makes me feel like Ramakrishna, makes love flow from my heart, and makes me more kind and tolerant of others. When you actually feel the mystery, the material and power aspects become unimportant. When you feel the mystery, you feel interconnectedness with all beings and life. With this interconnectedness, you would not want to hurt others, for you feel that they are like yourself. Doss: > When one considers all of the above it is very clear that wrong >messages are being sent about the mission of TS. They tend to attract >selfish >persons seeking personal development and personal goals or scholarship with >no interest in the "Orphan Humanity" or Universal Brotherhood. I do not >know how much harm it has already done to TS in the United States. If this >continues, more and more wrongly motivated selfish individuals would be >joining the TS and it is only a question of time for TSA to be wrecked by >its selfish membership who have no interest in Universal Brotherhood. This is a very harsh assessment. People follow the path in myriad ways. I would give them all credit for starting somewhere, and would be hesitant to blanket describe them as selfish. My feeling is that if one truly follows the path, eventually one could not avoid the understanding of the Universal Brotherhood. Some can go straight into doing whatever they can for the "orphan humanity", but others need to be at certain stages of development. I believe that understanding, tolerance, and setting good examples will do more good than making people feel that they are selfish. My personal belief is that building a strong inner foundation will enable the person to be more effective helpers of humanity. An ignorant helper of humanity can sometimes do more harm than good, although the chances of hurting by helping are little, IMO. I was more concerned with effectiveness. I have periods where I am out to the world, and periods where I am in seclusion to strengthen my foundation. Both periods are valid, and I have no apologies for either periods. These "selfish" people are also a part of orphan humanity, Doss. They are also lost and trying to find themselves. In finding themselves, they will be stronger as a helpful Brother. Perhaps the most effective way for theosophists to spread the value of service, is to keep on performing service, and promote service through discussions and news items of areas of service needed. You can describe to a person a great dish, but it would not really make them hungry until they see you eating with gusto that delightful dish. I agree that John Algeo, if he was really concerned about his brother theosophists, would put himself on the line and be open, in order to communicate and understand all concerns. If he was truly an open-hearted theosophist, he would put himself out in the line of fire, and wisely defuse the arguments. In this way, he would do more to unite theosophists and gain respect, rather than through terse communication. Any truly great people would put themselves out in the open, even under the real threat of bullets, such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King. I don't think John Algeo would have to worry about bullets, just a bunch of theosophists with great vocabulary. Is the TS important enough for that step to be taken? On the other hand, what step can the dissenting theosophists do to unite with the TS? Do you be direct and accusing? Or can you quietly perform services for the TS while putting your influences in? I have no idea how resistant the TS is to changing ideas. If the leadership would not be influenced, then how about all the different lodges setting their own focus? And what about spreading the influences to other lodges via communication? You start with one, spread to a group, spread to a lodge, spread to other lodges, until it touches the leadership? Naive? Why not? Communication can be powerful if done smartly. Okay, I'll stop now. I need to go to a monastery and take my vow of silence. I'm not doing too well on my own. Love and light to all of you, Thoa :o) ***************** Doss' letter: >Dear Brother: > > For any organization, for its long term growth and survival, it is very >important that its key mission is presented to the public and the >membership reminded of it in a very simple unambiguous manner giving no >chance for any misinterpretation or for any confusion. > > When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real >Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. >In the early days of TS, the question whether the Universal Brotherhood >mission of TS was the right one was raised from time to time. At one >juncture, A P Sinnett raised it with one of the Real Founders. In response, >the Maha Chohan, who was the Boss of the Founders was consulted. His >response was put down in a letter. This letter is considered as one of the >most important by every leader of TS starting with HPB onwards. It is >considered as the Charter for TS. In it is stated: > > "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect >Lamas, who are >expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, that >of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! >No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long >already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to >grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task >too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society >unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of >outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and >unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our >knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." > > In the light of the above, when I recently saw a statement by Bro. John >Algeo, our National President I was very shocked and disappointed. In the >letter published in Quest (1997) Holiday Gift Catalog he states: > >"The books and audios in this catalog come from the publishing arm of the >Theosophical Society, a nondenominational organization devoted to helping >its members: > > realize their inner potentials and seek out the mysteries of the >universe" > >followed by two other items. > > The above statement would lead the uninformed reader to conclude >that the >mission of TS is to help everyone to work towards the selfish goal of >realizing inner potentials and seeking out the mysteries of the universe.. > > Some time ago, in "The Messenger" which is edited by Bro. John >Algeo and >sent to all at-large members of TS, an unsigned serial article titled >"Theosophy in a New Key", talks about three aims. It says that "The second >aim of the Society is to offer its members a way of transforming >themselves, of achieving the purpose of our evolution, of discovering who >they really are. The third aim of the Society actually the first in >importance is to bring together a group of people who are informed about >the principles of the Wisdom Tradition, who have begun the work of >self-transformation, and who are dedicated to cooperating with the elders >and assisting in their work." [In reference to elders there is a discussion >about the Mahatmas.] > > When I visited the TSA Internet WWW, I saw the following statement: > > "The Quest is published by the Theosophical Society in >America, the >American section of a worldwide organization promoting the comparative >study of religion, philosophy, and science." > > When one considers all of the above it is very clear that wrong >messages >are being sent about the mission of TS. They tend to attract selfish >persons seeking personal development and personal goals or scholarship with >no interest in the "Orphan Humanity" or Universal Brotherhood. I do not >know how much harm it has already done to TS in the United States. If this >continues, more and more wrongly motivated selfish individuals would be >joining the TS and it is only a question of time for TSA to be wrecked by >its selfish membership who have no interest in Universal Brotherhood. > > I think the situation is a very serious one and needs swift and >decisive >action. Firstly the seriousness of the situation has to be recognized. Once >this is done, a plan has to be developed to adopt a strategy to send the >simple message that the mission of TS is to establish a nucleus of >Universal Brotherhood. This message should be sent to our current members >as well as to the public and frequently reinforced at every opportunity, in >the hope that any wrong ideas that the membership and public may have >formed is corrected promptly. > > When I brought the statement in the Quest Catalog and the article >in The >Messenger to the attention of Bro. Algeo, I received a one line response >from him which did not address any of the above issues. I sent you all a >copy of his letter which you should have received by now. > > In the light of the above, I think that the issues require very serious >consideration at the level of Board of Directors. Hence I hereby formally >request that it be included in the agenda of the upcoming meeting of the >Board of Directors of TSA. > > As the issues raised above may have policy and other ramifications >relative to the International Rules, I am copying this letter to Bro. Radha >Burnier, our International President. > > With regards > > Fraternally yours, > > M K Ramadoss > Member TSA, San Antonio Lodge > >Encls: 1. Maha Chohan Letter. > 2. John Algeo's Letter in the Quest 1997 Holiday Catalog. > 3. The Messenger - February 1996. > 4. Print out from TSA Internet WWW. > >================================================================ > >2. John Algeo's reply regarding the decision of the Board of Directors: > >Wednesday, February 4, 1998 > >Dear Mr. Ramadoss: > >Your communication of December 10th was discussed at the January meeting of >the National Board of Directors. Their unanimous conclusion what that the >concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the intent >of the documents you cite and is unwarranted. > >Sincerely yours, > >John Algeo >National President > >======================================= > >3. My response to John Algeo: > >February 9, 1998 > >By First Class Mail, e-mail to theos@netcom.com, and > Fax to 630-668-4976 > >John Algeo >National President >Theosophical Society in America >1926 North Mail Street >Wheaton IL 60189-0270 > >Dear Bro. Algeo: > >I have just received your letter of February 4, 1998 informing me that TSA >Board of Directors discussed my letter (regarding the mission of TS) of >December 10, 1997 at the January meeting and that the Board concluded that >the concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the >intent of the documents I cited and is unwarranted. > >I do not agree with the conclusion and the reasoning based on which the >Board reached the conclusion. Hence, I am going to leave it to the members >and the interested public to decide for themselves, as I believe they are >intelligent enough to make up their own minds whether the concern is the >result of misreading and/or whether the concern in unwarranted. > >With regards, > >Fraternally yours, > >M. K. Ramadoss >Member TSA >San Antonio Lodge > >===========================end========================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:55:10 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:TS in America > From: "Brenda S Tucker" > Subject: Re:TS in America > Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 2:17 PM > > > >> When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real > >> Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. > > This is incorrect. The idea in the first object is misstated and > misunderstood by Ramadoss because he is shortening the form of it. It is > not to form a Universal Brotherhood or to accent the "Brotherhood of > Humanity" as the Maha Chohan states, but to "form a nucleus of the > Universal Brotherhood." > > When I form a nucleus, not all existing parts of society are included in > this nucleus, some elements of the TS may exist in the electrons and some > foreign elements may exist alongside our "atom," but not be considered part > and party of our "atom." > > Please don't misstate the first object by saying it is: Brotherhood, > Brotherhood of Man, or Universal Brotherhood, because it is not. > a nice distinction. However a few points still need to be addressed... 1) Why is the TSA backing off from this object (if it indeed is)? 2) The first object has *never* been met. In fact, the various TS organizations all (may) seem to have been formed because of the *inability* to do precisely this Object. 3) The second and third objects are easily being meet with, and being handled *better* by other independent *well* established and *larger* organizations. 4) in light of 3) above.... *without* the first object there is currently no need to even *have* *any* theosophical society(s) and/or organizations. 5) after over a hundred years of effort, with very marginal success if not outright failure to meet the first three original objects... why are we abandoning the initial goal with little or no discussion? 6) The next millenium needs the first object *more* (& *now*) than at any other time in our history. (MHO) peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:20:22 -0800 From: "Cecil E Deeg" Subject: Re:TS in America Brenda S. Tucker wrote: > > >> When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real > >> Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. > > This is incorrect. The idea in the first object is misstated and > misunderstood by Ramadoss because he is shortening the form of it. It is > not to form a Universal Brotherhood or to accent the "Brotherhood of > Humanity" as the Maha Chohan states, but to "form a nucleus of the > Universal Brotherhood." > > When I form a nucleus, not all existing parts of society are included in > this nucleus, some elements of the TS may exist in the electrons and some > foreign elements may exist alongside our "atom," but not be considered part > and party of our "atom." > > Please don't misstate the first object by saying it is: Brotherhood, > Brotherhood of Man, or Universal Brotherhood, because it is not. > > >> In the early days of TS, the question whether the Universal Brotherhood > >> mission of TS was the right one was raised from time to time. At one > >> juncture, A P Sinnett raised it with one of the Real Founders. In > >response, > >> the Maha Chohan, who was the Boss of the Founders was consulted. His > >> response was put down in a letter. This letter is considered as one of > >the > >> most important by every leader of TS starting with HPB onwards. It is > >> considered as the Charter for TS. In it is stated: > >> > >> "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are > >> expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, > >that > >> of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! > >> No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long > >> already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to > >> grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a > >task > >> too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society > >> unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of > >> outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and > >> unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our > >> knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." > > >From John Mead's letter: > > >It seems clear that the TSA now wants to have a different purpose for the > >TSA than that of the original founding Brotherhood??!! > > > >I think the TSA leaders should spend several weeks with someone who really > >lives and believes in the First Object... like maybe the Dalai Lama??? > > > >(Is it relevent to point out that the ES also ignores (in fact is *defined* > >to ignore) the first and foremost Object also? maybe not... > >Hmmmm... the Dalai Lama doesn't even meet their requirements. we would > >have to find someone more spiritual and worthy that would/could meet their > >requirements). > > AGREEMENT RE:BROTHERHOOD OF HUMANITY. REF: MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. SINNETT. PAGE 24. THE CHIEFS WANT A "BROTHERHOOD OF HUMANITY," A REAL UNIVERSAL FRATERNITY STARTED; AN INSTITUTION WHICH WOULD MAKE ITSELF KNOWN THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND ARREST THE ATTENTION OF THE HIGHEST MINDS. FROM MY INPUT ON THIS MATTER IT SEEMS THE ORIGINAL INTENT WAS TO FORM A NUCLEUS OF THOSE CONTINUAL QUESTORS IN ORDER TO ADVANCE AND ENHANCE WITH TIME THE EVOLUTION OF THE SOCIETY. BRO. CECIL (CED357@worldnet.att.net) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:24:50 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Re:TS in America >AGREEMENT RE:BROTHERHOOD OF HUMANITY. REF: MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. >SINNETT. PAGE 24. THE CHIEFS WANT A "BROTHERHOOD OF HUMANITY," A REAL >UNIVERSAL FRATERNITY STARTED; AN INSTITUTION WHICH WOULD MAKE ITSELF >KNOWN THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND ARREST THE ATTENTION OF THE HIGHEST >MINDS. > >FROM MY INPUT ON THIS MATTER IT SEEMS THE ORIGINAL INTENT WAS TO FORM >A NUCLEUS OF THOSE CONTINUAL QUESTORS IN ORDER TO ADVANCE AND ENHANCE >WITH TIME THE EVOLUTION OF THE SOCIETY. > > BRO. CECIL (CED357@worldnet.att.net) Well, thank you, Bro. Cecil. Let's hold you true to your name. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:05:42 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Brotherhood of Humanity John E Mead wrote: > > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > > Subject: Re:Brotherhood of Humanity > > Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 1:58 PM > > > > ... I once pointed out that the TS does have > > one dogma: That there IS a brotherhood of humanity. > > > hmmmm... I kinda like that. :-) Good. Believe it or not, I prefer agreeing with you over disagreeing. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:23:43 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: TS - Universal Brotherhood In a book by Alice Leighton Cleather titled "H.P. Blavatsky - Her Life and Work for Humanity" there is an interesting chapter on Universal Brotherhood. Cleather was a pupil of HPB and was one of the members of the Inner Group HPB formed. I think in the context of the discussion on Universal Brotherhood, some may find it interesting. mkr =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CHAPTER II. Foundation of the Universal Brotherhood Movement in India. H. P. B. and Colonel Olcott arrived in England from New York on New Year's Day, 1879, stopping a short time in London to see the members of the British Theosophical Society (afterwards called the London Lodge) and some leading Spiritualists and Egyptologists. On January 19, they left for Bombay, passing through several terrific gales, in the midst of which we find H. P. B. writing in her diary:=97" Night of tossing and rolling... Oh for the Land! Oh for =20 India and Home !" In his Incidents in the Life of Madame Blavatsky (Chapter IX, 1st Edition, 1885), Mr. A. P. Sinnett writes:=97" Her Theosophic Mission appears to have had India as its objective point from the outset," that she " came to India to plant the Theosophical Society in the soil where it was destined chiefly to flourish." How could one doubt that the Trans-Himalayan Masters of Wisdom had India in view " from the outset " in their great effort for the rehabilitation of Buddhism=97real Buddhism, the Bodhidharma of the Archaic Ages taught by all the Buddhas ? This effort is peculiarly significant at the close of the first five thousand years of the Kali Yuga, and approximately two thousand five hundred after Gautama Buddha's Enlightenment and Renunciation of Nirvana (the Trans-Himalayan Tradition). How, I say, could one doubt this when one reads the Maha Chohan's Letter, written in 1880 ? This, however, will be dealt with later on. At present we are concerned with the arrival of H. P. B. at Bombay in February 1879, and the activities Immediately following. It was while they were at Bombay that she and Colonel Olcott became acquainted, at first through correspondence, with Mr. Sinnett, then Editor of the Pioneer. It was to him and to Mr. A. O. Hume, a Revenue official at Simla, that the Letter from the Maha Chohan, above mentioned, was written. We come now to the founding by H. P. B. of the Theosophist, " a monthly journal devoted to Oriental Philosophy, Art, Literature, and Occultism." The first number appeared on October I, 1879; but to read Colonel Olcott's account in Old Diary Leaves it might be supposed she had little or nothing to do with it. I feel that, in justice to H. P. B.'s memory, I must place on record my condemnation of the whole tone which Colonel Olcott uses in writing of his great colleague; of the petty feelings shown, and the baseless and unworthy insinuations, throughout his four volumes. To call them " The True History of the Theosophical Society " is preposterous; it is a case of Hamlet without the Prince. Good man, tireless and devoted worker as he undoubtedly was, Colonel Olcott's egotism was quite beyond the -normal; consequently he was incapable of understanding the real H. P. B. How different might have been the subsequent history of the Society had he been able to bring himself to listen more often to her advice ! But he did not possess that true humility which would have enabled him to recognise her as immeasurably his superior in the occult sense; although, as we have already seen, -he became her pledged pupil before they left America. In the first number of the Theosophist there is much of extreme importance, germane to my present purpose; e.g. in her editorial " What is Theosophy ? " H. P. B. says:=97" Theosophy is, then, the archaic Wisdom- the esoteric doctrine once known in every ancient country having claims to civilization." It is followed by one entitled " What are the Theosophists ? " In it H. P. B. speaks of the Society being established " upon the footing of a Universal Brotherhood," showing that with their arrival in India the time had come to make this a cardinal principle of the Society. Only two months later, in December, at Benares, the constitution was entirely remodelled and established on a purely esoteric basis. H. P. B. publishes a full account of it in the Theosophist for April, 1880, under the significant new double title: THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OR UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. Beneath are the words:=97" Formed at New York, U. S. of America, October 30= , 1875; " but, as I showed in Chapter I, the New York Society did not concern itself with Brotherhood at all. Next follow:=97" Principles, Rules, and Bye-Laws, as revised in General Council at the meeting held at the palace of H. H. the Maharajah of Vizianagram, Benares, 17th December, 1879." The most notable and vital features of this new Constitution, formulated in and for India, are the following:=97 " Formed upon the basis of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity," there was a General Council, and the President was " himself subject to the authority of a Supreme Council representing the highest section." This section being, as we shall see further on, confined to " Initiates in Esoteric Science and Philosophy " (i.e., the Masters), it is evident that the Society in its new form was to be under Their direct control. This is a very important point, as showing that the intention was to place India once again under the spiritual guidance of her ancient Rishis. The declared plans were:=97 (a) " To keep alive in man his spiritual intuitions." (b) " To oppose and counteract . . . bigotry in every form, whether as an intolerant religious sectarianism, or belief in miracles or anything supernatural." c) " To promote a feeling of brotherhood among nations . . . ' d) " To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of Nature . . . and Occult Sciences." (e) " To gather for the Society's library . correct information upon the various ancient philosophies, traditions, and legends.... " (f) " To promote . . . non-sectarian education." (g) " Finally and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual." The necessary instruction was to be given by members of the " First Section " (i.e., the Masters) under " a solemn oath not to use it for selfish purposes, nor to reveal it, except with the permission of the teacher." The Society was divided into three Sections:=97 The First was " composed exclusively of proficients or initiates in Esoteric Science and Philosophy." The Second consisted of those who " have become able to regard all men as equally their brothers, irrespective of caste, colour, race, or creed; and who are ready to defend the life or honour of a brother Theosophist even at the risk of their own lives." The Third was the " Section of Probationers," who were divided into "Active, Corresponding, and Honorary." They were " on probation, until their purpose to remain in the Society " had " become fixed, their usefulness shown, and their ability to conquer evil habits and unwarrantable prejudices demonstrated."=20 It is evident, therefore, that this section was intended for candidates for Chelaship, and that promotion to the Second Section implied that the candidate was "accepted" by the Members of the First. This purely Esoteric basis for the whole Society was interfered with by Colonel Olcott's exoteric objections and activities. When H. P. B. finally had to leave India in 1885 (again owing to this attitude of his in failing to support her in refuting the Madras Missionary attack), she revived it as the " Esoteric Section," at London, in 1888. A very important clause, in view of the political activities of the present T. S. in India, under Mrs. Besant, was the following:=97 " The Society repudiates all interference on its behalf with the Governmental relations of any nation or community, confining its attention exclusively to the matters set forth in the present document...." H. P. B. had already struck this note very forcibly in the Theosophist for October, where, speaking of the Society's programme, she writes:=97 " Unconcerned about politics: hostile to the insane dreams of Socialism and Communism, which it abhors [Italics mine - A.L.C.] - as both are but disguised conspiracies of brutal force and selfishness against honest labour; the Society cares but little about the outward human management of the material world. The whole of its aspirations are directed towards the occult truths of the visible and invisible worlds. Whether the physical man be under the rule of an empire or a republic concerns only the man of matter. His body may be enslaved; as to his Soul he has the right to give the proud answer of Socrates to his Judges. They have no sway over the inner man. Such is the Theosophical Society, and such its multifarious aims and objects.... " In a " true history " of the T. S. this very important Constitution ought to have been fully recorded; but not even the barest mention is to be found in Old Diary Leaves. Colonel Olcott devotes several chapters of vol. 2 to the events at Benares, when H. P. B. and he were the guests of the Maharajah; but, as usual, they are mostly minor matters, entertainments, and affairs in which he was the leading figure. H. P. B. only comes in when she satisfies his craze for phenomena. It was ever her custom to give him the limelight, and he took full advantage of it. That there must be some reason for this extraordinary omission is certain. It may be that what he flippantly called " the brotherhood plank " being now introduced was not agreeable to him. Certainly he would be likely to object to the occult character imparted to the new T. S. He invariably showed an entire want of comprehension of such matters and undisguised indifference (not to say contempt) for anything " occult " or " esoteric." This fatal lack in his make-up rendered him quite unable to appreciate the formation of the T. S. OR U. B. on an esoteric basis with the Masters as the Supreme Council and First Section, and H. P. B. as Their accredited Agent and Representative. On February 11, at Bombay, he records a quarrel with H. P. B. because he " flatly refused " to cancel a trip to Ceylon and stay to help her with the Theosophist. " A Master visited her on the 19th ": and as a result, on the 25th they came to an agreement to " reconstruct the T. S. on a different basis, putting the Brotherhood idea forward more prominently, and keeping the occultism more in the background . . . " The inference is obvious: Colonel Olcott had evidently made various objections to the new Constitution drawn up at Benares: we may therefore fairly conclude that in the form published in April it had been modified somewhat, because at the end are the words:=97" Revised and ratified by the Society at Bombay, February 26 and 28, 1880." A word on H. P. B.'s real relation to the T. S. should here be said. It has been shown that she was specially trained for her work and told by her Master that she would have to form " a Society." In a private letter to Mr. W. Q. Judge, written about 1887, she says=97 " I am the Mother and the Creator of the Society; it has my magnetic fluid . . . Therefore I alone and to a degree, Olcott, can serve as a lightning conductor of Karma for it. I was asked whether I was willing, when at the point of dying=97and I said, Yes=97for it was the only means to save it. Therefore I consented to live -- which in my case means to suffer physically during twelve hours of the day =97 mentally twelve hours of the night, when I get rid of the physical shell . . ." Although given somewhat out of its proper place, I quote it here to show that whatever the "President-Founder " (as he always liked to be called) may have believed, and whatever subsequently became the commonly accepted opinion among members of the T. S. generally, H. P. B., and she alone, was its " Creator." She voluntarily accepted its Karma and, as we shall see, she " bore the cross " of its failures and mistakes. If, then, in 1887, H. P. B. alone could " save " the Society, the obvious inference is that when she finally did go in I89I, it was because the further efforts she made had been in vain, and that it had been proved impossible to carry the Society safely through into the 20th century, as its Founders, the Masters, had wished to do. As she herself wrote in I886 in the December number of the Path (the official organ of the American Section):=97 " Unless radical r forms in our American and European Societies are speedily resorted to, I fear that before long there will r main but one centre of Theosophical Societies and Theosophy in the whole world=97namely, in India; on that country I call all the blessings of my heart. All my love and aspirations belong to my beloved brothers, the Sons of old Aryavarta - the Motherland of my MASTER." Needless to add, these " radical reforms" were not carried out; and H. P. B. once more raised her warning voice, in the first number of the English Vahan:-- " We say to-day to all:=97' If you would really help the noble cause=97you must do so now; for a few years more and your, as well as our, efforts will be in vain ' . . . We are in the very midst of the Egyptian darkness of Kali Yuga -- the ' Black Age,' the first 5,000 years of which=97 its dreary first cycle=97is preparing to close= on the world between 1897-8. Unless we can succeed in placing the T. S. before that date, on the safe side of the spiritual current, it will be swept away irretrievably into the Deep called ' Failures' and the cold waves of oblivion will close over its devoted head. Thus will have ingloriously perished the only association whose aims, and rules and original purposes answer in every particular and detail=97if strictly carried out=97to the innermost fundamental thought of every great Adept-Reformer=97 the beautiful dream of a Universal Brotherhood of Man." Alas ! these words proved only too tragically prophetic, and the T. S., but three short years after the death of its Founder, was rent in twain by mutual quarrels, jealousies and absolutely unbrotherly conduct. From that hour, and owing to this failure to carry out in practice the cardinal principle of Brotherhood, the T.S. " failed "=97 failed completely as a living, spiritual Force in the world. Subsequent history but conclusively proves the truth of my assertion: For had the Society successfully accomplished its mission in the world, the Great War would not have been possible, and the whole fate of humanity would have been changed. The fact that H. P. B. herself, not long before her death, foresaw, with prophetic insight, the future; foresaw the world-ruin and desolation which must inevitably follow upon the rejection of true Theosophy, is clearly proved by the fine concluding words of her leader in the May Number of Lucifer, 1889: " If Theosophy prevailing in the struggle, its all-embracing philosophy strikes deep root into the minds and hearts of men, if its doctrines of Reincarnation and Karma, in other words, of Hope and Responsibility, find a home in the lives of the new generation, then indeed will dawn a day of joy and gladness for all who now suffer and are outcast. For real Theosophy is Altruism, and we cannot repeat it too often. It is brotherly love, mutual help, unswerving devotion to Truth . . . But if not, then the storm will burst, and our boasted western civilization and enlightenment will sink in such a sea of horror that its parallel History has never yet recorded." And who is there among the more thoughtful and intelligent who will not see in the Great War, the Russian Revolution, and the ever-increasing intensity of the terrible struggle between Capital and Labour, symptoms of the coming cataclysm which H. P. B. here foretells. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dend=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:57:09 EST From: "Jim Voirol" Subject: Re: Re:TS in America Brenda: Thanks for some clarity in this discussion. Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:18:39 -0800 From: "Cecil E Deeg" Subject: Re:TS in America Brenda S. Tucker wrote: > > >AGREEMENT RE:BROTHERHOOD OF HUMANITY. REF: MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. > >SINNETT. PAGE 24. THE CHIEFS WANT A "BROTHERHOOD OF HUMANITY," A REAL > >UNIVERSAL FRATERNITY STARTED; AN INSTITUTION WHICH WOULD MAKE ITSELF > >KNOWN THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND ARREST THE ATTENTION OF THE HIGHEST > >MINDS. > > > >FROM MY INPUT ON THIS MATTER IT SEEMS THE ORIGINAL INTENT WAS TO FORM > >A NUCLEUS OF THOSE CONTINUAL QUESTORS IN ORDER TO ADVANCE AND ENHANCE > >WITH TIME THE EVOLUTION OF THE SOCIETY. > > > > BRO. CECIL (CED357@worldnet.att.net) > > Well, thank you, Bro. Cecil. Let's hold you true to your name. > > Brenda > > THANK YOU SISTER BRENDA. BRO. CECIL (ALIAS DR. FAUST) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:32:35 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Free our Board! These Divine Beings who have built the T.S. are not to see Their Handiwork annihilated by the insane criminal ignorance of mankind unawakened because of their selfishness and hate. There is no reason on Earth for selfishness and ignorance except their downright definance of the Law of Perfection - the Law of Our Love, the Law of Light. What does the human mind know about the causes in this Universe? What does the human mind know about the future effects of causes already generated? Tell Me what the human intellect knows about any security in the future! Well then, they'd better turn to the "Mighty I AM Presence" and the Ascended Ones who do know! Because We choose to do things in the way that is far-reaching in the future doesn't mean We've made mistakes past or present. This Work came forth to set mankind Free, and It shall fulfill Its Divine Purpose! This is an excerpt from the February "Voice of the I AM," but I think it fits. In the first line I substituted the initials "T.S." where the "Voice" says "system of worlds." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:39:16 -0700 From: "Lorraine Christensen" Subject: Universal Brotherhood >From Lorraine Christensen After 25 years of membership in the T.S. I continue to work as best I can for its three objects. Re: the first object - Universal Brotherhood - it is the hardest to live out for certain! It is my opinion that the T.S. does not carry out brotherhood successfully because so many of its members have trouble allowing for unity in diversity. We are not all the same. Uniformity just won't work. Every type of mind and heart needs to be fed. There must be room for the diverse personality and psychological types. Some are more scholarly in their approach, others more devotional/emotional; others still are action oriented. In our diversity, we are attracted to some of the TS teachers more than others. Some prefer HPB above all; others gravitate to Judge or Besant; still others to even later TS writers. Why can we not respect people for where they are at? Why cannot we show more goodwill and kindness towards each other? Why cannot we focus more on the good instead of spending so much time and energy in faultfinding? Why not be more generous in giving others the benefit of the doubt? Why is there so much argumentativeness, one-upmanship and divisiveness? Is it ego? Strongly opinionated and judgmental people can drown out or put down others who may feel differently. This can cause frustration, even woundedness and lead to even more divisiveness. Lets practice more charity and respect towards each other in the T.S. - and give each other space and room to grow so that each of us can more easily fulfill his or her own theosophical destiny! And lets be more positive and constructive in our dialogues. Maybe then we can show an example of brotherhood to the rest of the world. Lorraine Christensen henningc@quenet.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:44:03 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: "Theosophy and the Internet" Presentation I'm writing about my "Theosophy and the Internet" presentation that I made at the Krotona School, Ojai, California at the end of January. First, I'd like to thank everyone that offered suggestions and information for use in the program. The program was broken down into four one-hour segments. The first hour was on what the Internet was in general terms, and what computer equipment and software would be needed to access it. The second hour was on the Web and Web browsers, and involved visiting various useful sites including news, weather, stock information, movies, finding out-of-print books, locating information on people, etc. The third hour dealt with other Internet features, including pagers, email, online radio and realaudio, news groups, and search engines. The final hour brought in Theosophy and the spiritual, and dealt with theosophical sites, mailing lists, online books, and the benefits of writing and communicating on the Internet. It was a rainy day, but still 20 people came. I had rented a good Proxima LCD projector, so the entire group saw what I was doing on my computer, which I also brought up. I attempted to involve the group with what we looked for and did. We found apartments for rent in Ojai, got an out-of-print book for Joy Mills, looked up the famous Internet "dancing baby", noted when the movie "Titanic" was showing that day in nearby theaters, paged Jerry Hejka-Ekins, read a few theos-l and theos-talk messages that had come up, made a real-audio recording of Richard Hiltner talking about the difference between Inner and Outer Rounds, and did a query against a beta version of an online THE SECRET DOCTRINE. The general impression made was, I think, good, and people went away with a more positive attitude towards the Internet and its usefulness in both their personal lives and as a tool for spiritual work. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:34:23 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood Your very valuable input is very timely and welcome. Much of the recent discussion on Universal Brotherhood is in relation to that of TSA -- the organization and its presentation of its mission to the world. Many of us here have been with TS twice as long as you have been with TS. When the mission of TS is not properly presented to its members and those interested in Theosophy, it cannot but produce results not conducive to the long term growth of the membership as well as the members. The mission of TS should be presented in very simple clear cut unambiguous terms that even a child can understand. Theosophy is not meant to be for the scholarly elite only, it was meant for everyone. Has it reached the masses? What does the facts say in this regard? When anyone sees there is a potential or actual confusion as regards the mission of TS, I think it is the duty of every open minded person to speak up in the hope that TS will be properly presented to the world and there is no chance for any misreading or misunderstanding of its mission. mkr At 12:39 PM 2/11/1998 -0700, you wrote: >>From Lorraine Christensen > >After 25 years of membership in the T.S. I continue to work as best I >can for its three objects. Re: the first object - Universal >Brotherhood - it is the hardest to live out for certain! It is my >opinion that the T.S. does not carry out brotherhood successfully >because so many of its members have trouble allowing for unity in >diversity. We are not all the same. Uniformity just won't work. >Every type of mind and heart needs to be fed. There must be room for >the diverse personality and psychological types. Some are more >scholarly in their approach, others more devotional/emotional; others >still are action oriented. In our diversity, we are attracted to some >of the TS teachers more than others. Some prefer HPB above all; others >gravitate to Judge or Besant; still others to even later TS writers. >Why can we not respect people for where they are at? Why cannot we >show more goodwill and kindness towards each other? Why cannot we >focus more on the good instead of spending so much time and energy in >faultfinding? Why not be more generous in giving others the benefit of >the doubt? Why is there so >much argumentativeness, one-upmanship and divisiveness? Is it >ego? Strongly opinionated and judgmental people >can drown out or put down others who may feel differently. This can >cause frustration, even >woundedness and lead to even more divisiveness. Lets practice more >charity and respect towards each other in the T.S. - and give each >other space and room to grow so that each of us can more easily fulfill >his or her own >theosophical destiny! And lets be more positive and constructive in >our >dialogues. Maybe then we can show an example of brotherhood to the >rest of the world. > >Lorraine Christensen >henningc@quenet.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:47:29 -0800 From: "Martin Leiderman" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood M K Ramadoss wrote: > When anyone sees there is a potential or actual confusion as regards the > mission of TS, I think it is the duty of every open minded person to speak > up in the hope that TS will be properly presented to the world and there is > no chance for any misreading or misunderstanding of its mission. For one, myself do not see any problems the way TSA is presenting the TSA. Just because one disagrees with the way is presented it does not mean is bad, or wrong, or confusing. I think that more than 99.9% of the world have not heard of T., TS, or TSA, so there is no risk of massive confusion out there. The ones that have read the way TSA presented its mission, no matter how it is presented will polarize tnto "like and dislike", like you are very much brother MKR. Only time will tell the impact in the spiritual development of Humanity. That impact is very much in motion by the promotion of the theosophical books of HPB, by public presentations of the Divine Wisdom as found in the Voice , SD, etc. By our theosophical attitute of openning Study Groups everywhere: to study, reflect, meditate,and search for the Noble Truths. On a constructive note why don't we, write the mission, in modern words, of the TS and post it everywhere in the internet, that has more outreach than few thousands of fliers, magazines that the TSA publishes yearly. Lets remember that "negative criticism" does harms, robes energy, creates ugly environments, it comes from a wounded psychic, unconscious and denied area within us. On the other hand constructive criticism is . . . what the 3 Objects refer to. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:17:59 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re:Free our Board! At 10:32 AM 2/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >These Divine Beings who have built the T.S. are not to see Their Handiwork >annihilated by the insane criminal ignorance of mankind unawakened because >of their selfishness and hate. There is no reason on Earth for selfishness >and ignorance except their downright definance of the Law of Perfection - >the Law of Our Love, the Law of Light. > >What does the human mind know about the causes in this Universe? What does >the human mind know about the future effects of causes already generated? >Tell Me what the human intellect knows about any security in the future! >Well then, they'd better turn to the "Mighty I AM Presence" and the >Ascended Ones who do know! Because We choose to do things in the way that >is far-reaching in the future doesn't mean We've made mistakes past or >present. This Work came forth to set mankind Free, and It shall fulfill Its >Divine Purpose! > Agreeing with you,Brenda.The text above reflects perfectly the fierce cry of your heart (and ours) because of all the damages we have caused around the world. Seems to me that your innocence way of seeing the things, is filled with a pure voice of the heart. i am not a metaphisic like you are, but i believe that in that simple text you put, reflects the cry and anger of a damaged world, that deserves to be purified and cleaned of all that mess. I can only pray that pepole like you can make something to change this. with prayers, with feelings, with action, taughts, all of it works. (And has to be ALL, not just one or two things. Thank you for sharing with us your feelings. i do not understand well all of what you say , but i'm trying to understand it. Estrella >This is an excerpt from the February "Voice of the I AM," but I think it >fits. In the first line I substituted the initials "T.S." where the "Voice" >says "system of worlds." > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:15:53 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Universal Brotherhood Doss: >The mission of TS should be presented in very simple clear cut unambiguous >terms that even a child can understand. Theosophy is not meant to be for >the scholarly elite only, it was meant for everyone. Has it reached the >masses? What does the facts say in this regard? Dear Doss, I understand your concern regarding theosophy reaching the masses. I also consider that to be important. Theos-l had a discussion regarding this a year ago. To me, the problem is not the order of the objectives. I don't think changing the order would make much difference. Even the layman would love to learn of the mysteries. I think the most effective action is making areas of communication accessible to the masses. This could be done by distributing books geared toward the layman, perhaps books with lots of pictures and easy to understand writing. A good example of that would be the series of books on the esoteric by Thames and Hudson. Their books are large, with writing that would not insult the intelligence, yet would not be tedious for the layman, and is 50% pictures. This, I think, would be appealing even to a child. Perhaps someone with a good knowledge of the important theosophical works would be willing to simplify them and portray the ideas pictorially. This someone would also have to have clear and friendly communication skills. This condensing will not insult the original works. Think of these books as a bridge to deeper knowledge. If communication is done via the internet, the discussions should also allow for simple and naive inquiries, and even crassness. The response should be tolerant, kind, helpful, and related to the tone of the writer. The layman could be uneducated or could be working on a doctorate. Respond in a way that the questioner would understand, but do not insult the intelligence of the writer. And, my personal preference, a few jokes and poetry makes the environment more pleasant. Doss, consider that the "scholarly elite" were laymen who have crossed the first bridge and wants to continue crossing more bridges. There are places for them, too. The only thing is that, as people further in their search, they should not forget to walk back to the first bridge once in a while and assist the new ones over. The best way to reach people is through communication and acceptance. Accept them where they are at, and work with them from their strength. If you want to push people away, then tell them that they are not good enough where they are, and that they should be ashamed of themselves. Why not give constructive ideas without pinpointing blames, or blanket categorizing people? You can influence friends, but you can't influence enemies. Actually, you can influence your enemies, but that would be the strategy of war. Doss, since you follow ahimsa, I don't think you want to do that. :o) Make friends first, see what they are about, let them know what you are about, let them see what you are passionate about, and positively glow about your passion. In that way, you can be persuasive and charismatic. Believe me, I know it works. When people like you, they are more than willing to do whatever they can for you. This is from my personal observation from former workplaces, and from extracurricular activities. I am not the type to take advantage of it, perhaps that is a part of it. I did notice that when I make a suggestion of change because I cared, people are quick to respond. And sometimes people goes above and beyond my request. All this surprised me. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:35:57 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Dear Thoa: All you have mentioned is true. But here we are having a situation which goes to the root of the future of TSA. My concern about putting Brotherhood/Sisterhood/Siblinghood first and foremost is not out of my imagination. It came about as a result of some of the messages that AP Sinnett got from Mahatma KH and which were reiterated and reemphasized by HPB when Sinnett harped on putting emphasis on mysteries and phenomenon as the best way to further Theosophy to the world. In this context he was repeatedly told that Brotherhood is the key and even if it is just a dream, at least a noble one. I will try to get some of the material on this issue from the ML to APS later today when I have some time. Also if there has been a policy change in de-emphasizing Brotherhood as a matter of official policy, then membership and public should be told so (instead of taking an elitist hierarchical view.) When we see membership dwindling and lodges and centers on the decline, the issue of the primary policies/objects of TS becomes very important and can be decisive how far the decline can take place before the TSA itself is shutdown (as a matter of fact in the by-laws, a provision has been made to fold all the assets into the TIT Trust which does not have to answer anyone -- Don't we all remember what happened in the Krishnamurti Trusts until the California Attorney General had to sue the Trustees). mkr At 02:24 PM 2/12/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Doss: >>The mission of TS should be presented in very simple clear cut unambiguous >>terms that even a child can understand. Theosophy is not meant to be for >>the scholarly elite only, it was meant for everyone. Has it reached the >>masses? What does the facts say in this regard? > >Dear Doss, > >I understand your concern regarding theosophy reaching the masses. I also >consider that to be important. Theos-l had a discussion regarding this a >year ago. > >To me, the problem is not the order of the objectives. I don't think >changing the order would make much difference. Even the layman would love >to learn of the mysteries. I think the most effective action is making >areas of communication accessible to the masses. This could be done by >distributing books geared toward the layman, perhaps books with lots of >pictures and easy to understand writing. A good example of that would be >the series of books on the esoteric by Thames and Hudson. Their books are >large, with writing that would not insult the intelligence, yet would not >be tedious for the layman, and is 50% pictures. This, I think, would be >appealing even to a child. Perhaps someone with a good knowledge of the >important theosophical works would be willing to simplify them and portray >the ideas pictorially. This someone would also have to have clear and >friendly communication skills. This condensing will not insult the >original works. Think of these books as a bridge to deeper knowledge. > >If communication is done via the internet, the discussions should also >allow for simple and naive inquiries, and even crassness. The response >should be tolerant, kind, helpful, and related to the tone of the writer. >The layman could be uneducated or could be working on a doctorate. Respond >in a way that the questioner would understand, but do not insult the >intelligence of the writer. And, my personal preference, a few jokes and >poetry makes the environment more pleasant. > >Doss, consider that the "scholarly elite" were laymen who have crossed the >first bridge and wants to continue crossing more bridges. There are places >for them, too. The only thing is that, as people further in their search, >they should not forget to walk back to the first bridge once in a while and >assist the new ones over. > >The best way to reach people is through communication and acceptance. >Accept them where they are at, and work with them from their strength. If >you want to push people away, then tell them that they are not good enough >where they are, and that they should be ashamed of themselves. Why not >give constructive ideas without pinpointing blames, or blanket categorizing >people? You can influence friends, but you can't influence enemies. >Actually, you can influence your enemies, but that would be the strategy of >war. Doss, since you follow ahimsa, I don't think you want to do that. :o) >Make friends first, see what they are about, let them know what you are >about, let them see what you are passionate about, and positively glow >about your passion. In that way, you can be persuasive and charismatic. >Believe me, I know it works. When people like you, they are more than >willing to do whatever they can for you. This is from my personal >observation from former workplaces, and from extracurricular activities. I >am not the type to take advantage of it, perhaps that is a part of it. I >did notice that when I make a suggestion of change because I cared, people >are quick to respond. And sometimes people goes above and beyond my >request. All this surprised me. > >Thoa :o) > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:09:17 GMT From: "Peter R Calvert" Subject: Re: Re: Universal Brotherhood Hello to Theos-talk members from New Zealand, I have joined this discussion group only this year, and have been very interested to watch the issues, many of which are also of relevance to TS in this country, roll before my eyes as I scan your commentary. >MK Ramadoss wrote: > All you have mentioned is true. But here we are having a situation which goes to the root of the >future of TSA. > My questions is these: 1. If the TS was directed in it's establishment from those who have humanity as a whole at heart, where and who are the people who now have that quality of connection to the directors (Mahatmas), are they being asked and what are they saying needs to be done, and are they being listened to? 2. Is it true that the emphasis identified ~125 years is still relevant today? In whose opinion, and with what authority? Regards, Peter Calvert, TS Hamilton NZ > My concern about putting Brotherhood/Sisterhood/Siblinghood first and foremost is not out of >my imagination. It came about as a result of some of the messages that AP Sinnett got from >Mahatma KH and which were reiterated and reemphasized by HPB when Sinnett harped on >putting emphasis on mysteries and phenomenon as the best way to further Theosophy to the >world. In this context he was repeatedly told that Brotherhood is the key and even if it is just a >dream, at least a noble one. I will try to get some of the material on this issue from the ML to >APS later today when I have some time. > > Also if there has been a policy change in de-emphasizing Brotherhood as a matter of official >policy, then membership and public should be told so (instead of taking an elitist hierarchical >view.) > > When we see membership dwindling and lodges and centers on the decline, the issue of the >primary policies/objects of TS becomes very important and can be decisive how far the decline >can take place before the TSA itself is shutdown (as a matter of fact in the by-laws, a provision >has been made to fold all the assets into the TIT Trust which does not have to answer anyone -- >Don't we all remember what happened in the Krishnamurti Trusts until the California Attorney >General had to sue the Trustees). > > mkr > > > > > > At 02:24 PM 2/12/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Doss: > >>The mission of TS should be presented in very simple clear cut unambiguous > >>terms that even a child can understand. Theosophy is not meant to be for > >>the scholarly elite only, it was meant for everyone. Has it reached the > >>masses? What does the facts say in this regard? > > > >Dear Doss, > > > >I understand your concern regarding theosophy reaching the masses. I also > >consider that to be important. Theos-l had a discussion regarding this a > >year ago. > > > >To me, the problem is not the order of the objectives. I don't think > >changing the order would make much difference. Even the layman would love > >to learn of the mysteries. I think the most effective action is making > >areas of communication accessible to the masses. This could be done by > >distributing books geared toward the layman, perhaps books with lots of > >pictures and easy to understand writing. A good example of that would be > >the series of books on the esoteric by Thames and Hudson. Their books are > >large, with writing that would not insult the intelligence, yet would not > >be tedious for the layman, and is 50% pictures. This, I think, would be > >appealing even to a child. Perhaps someone with a good knowledge of the > >important theosophical works would be willing to simplify them and portray > >the ideas pictorially. This someone would also have to have clear and > >friendly communication skills. This condensing will not insult the > >original works. Think of these books as a bridge to deeper knowledge. > > > >If communication is done via the internet, the discussions should also > >allow for simple and naive inquiries, and even crassness. The response > >should be tolerant, kind, helpful, and related to the tone of the writer. > >The layman could be uneducated or could be working on a doctorate. Respond > >in a way that the questioner would understand, but do not insult the > >intelligence of the writer. And, my personal preference, a few jokes and > >poetry makes the environment more pleasant. > > > >Doss, consider that the "scholarly elite" were laymen who have crossed the > >first bridge and wants to continue crossing more bridges. There are places > >for them, too. The only thing is that, as people further in their search, > >they should not forget to walk back to the first bridge once in a while and > >assist the new ones over. > > > >The best way to reach people is through communication and acceptance. > >Accept them where they are at, and work with them from their strength. If > >you want to push people away, then tell them that they are not good enough > >where they are, and that they should be ashamed of themselves. Why not > >give constructive ideas without pinpointing blames, or blanket categorizing > >people? You can influence friends, but you can't influence enemies. > >Actually, you can influence your enemies, but that would be the strategy of > >war. Doss, since you follow ahimsa, I don't think you want to do that. :o) > >Make friends first, see what they are about, let them know what you are > >about, let them see what you are passionate about, and positively glow > >about your passion. In that way, you can be persuasive and charismatic. > >Believe me, I know it works. When people like you, they are more than > >willing to do whatever they can for you. This is from my personal > >observation from former workplaces, and from extracurricular activities. I > >am not the type to take advantage of it, perhaps that is a part of it. I > >did notice that when I make a suggestion of change because I cared, people > >are quick to respond. And sometimes people goes above and beyond my > >request. All this surprised me. > > > >Thoa :o) > Peter R. Calvert | There are no second-hand adepts! pcalvert@hort.cri.nz | Joy Mills. T.S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:27:58 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood Feb .12 1998 Dallas writes: In the 3rd article in the first issue of "The Theosophist" HPB's "What are the Theosophists ?" speaks of the birth of the TS and of its constitution as intended in that beginning (p. 6, col.2 bottom) -- it is a "Republic of Conscience." The Voice of Conscience is every member's man or woman, young or old member. The T S has no dogmas, no creed. (p. 5, col.2, bottom) Brotherhood is its prime base. Why ? Because of the "one Supreme eternal Unknown, and Unnamed Power, governing the Universe by immutable and eternal laws." ( p. 3, col. 1 top ). Theosophy is: "the archaic Wisdom-Religion, the esoteric doctrine once known in every ancient country having claims to civilization...as an emanation from the divine Principle...Buddh... Nebo...Thoth...Hermes...Metis...Neitha...Athena..." (p. 3, col 1, center) The integrity of the TS as of any organization depends entirely on the loyalty of the members, not to the "organization" as such, but to THEOSOPHY. HPB herself, in 1889, made clear this distinction in a memorable article : "A Puzzle from Adyar" (Theosophist, Vol. 10, August 1889). It is valuable for members to acquaint themselves with her words and statements and make personal applications. The growth, persistence, and success of the TS depends entirely on its loyalty to the Original Impulse and the Original Program. The "Three Objects" need to be thought over and considered. If members are unacquainted with the history of the development of Theosophical teachings and doctrines, this deficiency can be repaired by re-reading the literature. There is no substituting for the original statements, although many have set themselves us as interpreters and simplifiers. Many have even said: "If HPB were here now she would say -- so and so !" Implying that they know better than HPB or the Masters what ought to be said and done, instead of leaving it to the individual genius and initiative of each student -- which is the real intent of THEOSOPHY. And, this does not mean that what I write now is either true or correct, but is only designed to draw attention to the responsibility that each one of us has to discover what THEOSOPHY says and IS for themselves. A similarity of understanding is that unifying bond that draws all of us together, incarnation after incarnation in various situations as personalities, and in various degrees of competence, but all of us are the servers in some degree of the rest of humanity. How else can vast and impersonal ideas of law, of immortality, of continued efforts be shown and spoken intelligently about ? Brotherhood is both a conviction of unitedness and a state of living. It is spiritual, intellectual, sensitive and physical -- we share in each other all the time, and cannot avoid it. The speed of thought and feeling exceeds by far that of light. Once we are convinced of that there is no rook for misunderstandings or secret motives. Our hearts become bear -- plain as motives to each other. The trust that arises is the fruit of practical brotherhood and is the healing of all differences. To me, this is what Theosophy breathes and gives. All the rest of our search is the comparison of what we have learned or though with our brothers who share in this vast, communal search for truth, for accuracy, and for cooperation. WE are the ones who bring again to birth and support that continuing unity that makes the strength of the Theosophical MOVEMENT. I hope that some of these ideas are thought by you to be useful Let us discuss and see if there is not an understanding and agreement about the basis for our relations and our loyalties. We ought to support all organizations that are true to the original impulse of the Great Movement, and make as sincere a commitment of support as we are able to understand the need for. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:14:47 +1100 From: "Keith Fisher" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood MKR wrote: When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. In the light of the above, when I recently saw a statement by Bro. John Algeo, our National President I was very shocked and disappointed. In the letter published in Quest (1997) Holiday Gift Catalog he states: "The books and audios in this catalog come from the publishing arm of the Theosophical Society, a nondenominational organization devoted to helping its members: realize their inner potentials and seek out the mysteries of the universe" followed by two other items. The above statement would lead the uninformed reader to conclude that the mission of TS is to help everyone to work towards the selfish goal of realizing inner potentials and seeking out the mysteries of the universe.. _________ Surely any organisation proposing to form a nucleus, or core, of members of humanity who would have brotherly love towards each other, and the rest of humanity, without distinction, would need to help their members achieve such a high goal. A knowledge of the mysteries of the universe would certainly be required as a prerequisite to realising one's inner potentials before feeling sure of the consequencies of entering into such a loving, trusting, selfless, relationship with the rest of humanity, namely Brotherhood. _________ Lorraine Christensen wrote: After 25 years of membership in the T.S. I continue to work as best I can for its three objects. Re: the first object - Universal Brotherhood - it is the hardest to live out for certain! _________ MKR wrote: Many of us here have been with TS twice as long as you have been with TS. When the mission of TS is not properly presented to its members and those interested in Theosophy, it cannot but produce results not conducive to the long term growth of the membership as well as the members. _________ Subscribing to TS for fifty years may attract some Brownie points and increase one's knowledge, but does it confer wisdom, or make one more brotherly? I am sure the President of TSA, John Algeo, is acutely aware of the decreasing worldwide membership of the TS and would welcome any constructive new ideas which would start to reverse this situation. Perhaps, instead of criticism, the Board of Directors need input, feedback, and support for any new approach it may take to promote theosophy in a light that would enthuse more people to commit themselves to this high ideal of Brotherhood in this age of materialism. Best wishes Keith Fisher Perth Australia From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:46:36 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: GREAT GRATITUDE I hope this is not too long. -Bruce TODAY is the day you come to a realisation of what you have got. Not what you have had, as is usually the perspective, nor what you should choose for yourself, but rather what of today and this moment you have. The expression 'count your blessings' is to formally set in order, consciously acknowledging that which you have. It may help to put them in writing and make of a long list which may be returned to again and again and added to as more revelations spring to mind. Often we are so busy day to day, that we have neglected to truly be thankful, and also neglected those finest resources that we do hold, because we have not been mindful of them or of the opportunities that we already possess. In the game of chess one is wise to be defensive, but shall truly manoeuvre correctly by ascertaining the strengths and the stronghold thereby. If our personal view is so concentrated upon what we believe to be our weaknesses, then how shall we develop that which is more worthy of our consideration? We pay much too much attention to the minor faults and disregard the major; whilst forgetting to be forever thankful to the Father for the gifts already given. One might believe at first that the list will be small indeed. However, in careful analysis one will find in so many differing ways, that the list is truly so long that it could never be completed. However attempt is fruitful. Frankly speaking, we have difficulty in reviewing consciously much which relates directly to ourselves. And this in exercise is a fine beginning to such discipline, whilst also is preparatory to the receiving of greater gifts. And what exactly do we extract our joy in life from? This being very individual and so personal to each and every one. When in company with others, we are drawn to impressions which overall are so set, that we speculate upon items and conditions that do not necessarily bring much joy to us at all. One can see a fervour being worked up amongst a group with excited chatter and much stimulation. But rarely do people share that which is delicately important to them personally, that which speaks to and from the heart and its quiet happinesses. Troubles and grumblings are quick to arise when this subject is broached from the first. This uprising does quash and negate the motivations which enable one to carry through with this practice. What may firstly come to mind is rather the guilt that one has not before 'counted the blessings' and one might openly exclaim, "Oh, I know that I should be doing this", and then feel immediately depressed at the thought. Interesting, isn't it? Or perhaps the answer might be, "Oh, but I do that already!", without reflecting as to whether one can really have done this enough, if in fact the blessings have been itemised at all. It is a little like counting one's money, only far better. There is meagre satisfaction in counting money and checking to see if it is all there. For if one has more than enough, it becomes merely an act of counting, and if there is a deficiency it becomes more of a worry, because of that shortage. To some it appears as a painful and arduous task. But if we are to receive many gifts in our life, we are firstly to know and use what we have and secondly to know of our gratitude for them. By actively doing this our entire outlook does brighten, and a certain confidence develops within the man, who then stands firmer in the world. Quite often the remedy to our troubles is there before us and yet unseen. We are to refine our attitudes and begin in small measures, seemingly, and find that the results are astounding in respect to future changes which will be effected, by the enhancement of our personal perspectives. Also by this, we shall come to know that which we truly respect and savour in our lives - our primary values, therefore our primary goals. First purpose and first desires. And commit all others to their respective places of importance, with thus a clearer perspective, than from the outset. It is damaging to one's health, inner health of soul and outer personal condition, to maintain a focus upon certain deficiencies or longings which are unreconcilable. It is one thing to hold goals and work for them in a productive and steady enduring manner, but it is quite different to go about reprimanding, nay cursing, ourselves and our situations. One may be greatly assisted in the beginning, by actually vocalising those blessings, loudly pronouncing in detail to oneself or to another. This is not to suggest boasting of course, but to explain the concept of the practice of grateful acknowledgment and then to take turns in such conversation, expressing as many blessings as one can bring forth. Such an interplay will certainly uplift the mood of the party and also be far more productive than many an alternative form of conversation! Beware of opinions and comparisons however! This is not the intent of the procedure. We must acknowledge that this is very subjective and not open to conjecture, if it is indeed honest in reproduction. Also, one may never truly be convinced when bringing to mind our treasured happinesses, this is not the point. The point is the stimulation in the revealing and the revelation of overwhelming gratitude which weeps from such vital stimulation. The very fluids of the spiritual life pour from such reverential thankfulness. There may be two types of ecstasy experienced. One is where one consciously reaches levels of passion and presumes this to be ecstasy in the essential form. The other is the essential substance, undiluted and pure from passion - and this is supreme gratitude. The former comes by the enhanced realisation at the very apex of one's experience of that which is very personal and sought for and given over to sublime expression of this. The latter, which may only be reached by ways extraneous to subjective desire, is the conscious realization of the spirit's grand gratitude to the heavens and the heavenly Father, to creation, to being, for existence. It is existence and existence perfected, through a being who has finally acknowledged most perfectly, through this: the revelation of great and everlasting gratitude. This is ecstasy, in her finest form. This is what was meant by compassion being the complete form of passion. It is passion which has 'gone the full round' so to speak, and fulfilled itself outside of itself. Compassion, the complete passion, the passions completed, is the consequence as distilled thereby, which speaks to us of that which is outside from our personal strivings, needs, desires and experiences, and seeks to commune with the great and holy Spirit which is, and is through us and all. And the divinity so inspired has one primary experience in the realisation and acknowledgment of God the Father and of divine creation; that being the essential and overwhelming great gratitude. One can almost feel it now. So close. That we might be. That we are now. That we shall endure. That we may be sustained. To that which sustains. To that which infills our very being. That our senses are so infilled. That our spirit and our substance is renewed. That so much is afforded; whilst we in humility, gaze out at the vastness of all of creation. . . and say, thank you. -b.hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:55:29 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE Feb 13 1998 Dear B:hive ! As to present consciousness, and as to ecstasy -- I am wondering who is the "I" that now contemplates either going into such a state, or reviews having been there ? What is "ecstasy" Is this the "Nabia" of the old Kabalists ? [ Isis I p. xxxvii ] Or perhaps a state attained upon drinking the "Soma juice ?" [ Is I xl ] Is it something we control at will, or is it a condition into which we involuntarily fall ? Interesting essay you offer. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:04:21 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood Dear Friends: If there is a decrease of public interest in the T S ( and in other organisms through which Theosophy is promulgated,and discussed ) it does not mean that THEOSOPHY vanishes, or that we ought to despair. Numbers are not symptomatic of anything else than a change in activity in a general cycle. It means that individuals who desire to profit from the contact and exchange of ideas are perhaps showing less inclination to be formally affiliated in any organization. It does not mean that THEOSOPHY has "failed," but, if anything, it ought to inspire all those who have studied and been touched by the universal and brotherly basis, and the moral value of Theosophy have to redouble their individual efforts. There are people "out there" who are interested in Theosophy. Not in the word or in the expression, more or less formalized, which is emblemed by any organizational name. The true "flag-Ship" is to my mind: Theosophy, and not any of the several "organizations." For that reason there should be continued assistance and help offered through exchanges such as we have here in this circle of continued and interesting exchanges. If, individually, we are going to grow with this assistance, then individual study of theosophical subjects becomes necessary. The more we know for sure, the better able we will be to assist others -- and, isn't that brotherhood in action ? Any more ideas ? Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:38:33 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: Re:Re: Universal Brotherhood Feb 13 1998 Dallas offers : Dear Peter Calvert: Your questions on the TS and its "mandate" are solvable, if you read a documentary history of the Theosophical Movement covering the last 125 years or so since the T S was launched. There is an impartial and comprehensive history based on actual documents available under the title THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT : 1875 -1950, published by Cunningham Press, Los Angeles, and available through Theosophy Company, 245 W. 33rd St., Los Angeles, Ca., 90007, USA The TS was made the "vehicle" for communicating "Eastern (Aryan) esoteric works" ( SD I 226) into the English language. Up until the publication by HPB of articles and books on behalf of the Masters of Wisdom, such information had not been gathered together and offered to the Western world as comprehensive and systematic evidence of Eastern Wisdom down the ages, and as the source of every great religious philosophy during the past 5 to 15,000 years (as an abbreviated view of the recent beginnings and engraftings of one faith to the older ones -- in reality Theosophy as fact and history is as old as thinking man). But the TS was not given a monopoly. As I recently posted in a note on "Brotherhood" HPB set the principles of individual adherence to the TS -- "the vehicle of Theosophy" in full view. I suggested that her article in the form of an open letter addressed to the Temporary Editor of the THEOSOPHIST, Mr. Harte, (who edited the magazine temporarily, while Col. Olcott, the President Founder of the TS was on tour) HPB had to draw the attention of the Editor (temporary) of the THEOSOPHIST to the fundamental facts of Theosophy as a philosophy based on universal truths. She did this openly in her article entitled "A Puzzle From Adyar." This was published in THEOSOPHIST, Vol 10, August 1889 [ 14 years after the TS was launched in New York ]. If you desire a copy of this article I can make a Xerox and send it to you. It has been reprinted in recent years in such magazines as THEOSOPHY (monthly magazine published by Theosophy Company, Los Angeles for the past 85 years) or THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (Bombay, India). If you read and study THE MAHATMA LETTERS, you will soon realize that they wrote Mr. Sinnett and others on matter of principle. Any organization is useful to THEOSOPHY if it adopts pursues and maintains as pure as possible the PRINCIPLES which are an integral part of THEOSOPHY -- the "Wisdom-Religion" of antiquity. So, to answer your 2nd question, "authority" lies in the principles advanced, and it is expected that every student or person who is touched by Theosophical philosophy and ethics, will work to verify those principles independently of anything else, including the TS or any organization which claims to provide and represent Theosophy to its members. Theosophy, as logic and doctrine expects individuals to independently study and arrive at conclusions on their own, and not follow a "party line." Brotherhood is the direct result of the vast Unity of our all living together, and of the Single Source from which all comes. The first 25 pages of the Secret Doctrine, Vol. 1 illustrates this well. It is worth careful study. I hope this is of some help. and will be glad to add information to these views of mine if desired. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:12:13 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood ---------- > From: "Dallas TenBroeck" > Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood > Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 6:04 AM > > Dear Friends: > > > Numbers are not symptomatic of anything else than a change in activity in a > general cycle. It means that individuals who desire to profit from the > contact and exchange of ideas are perhaps showing less inclination to be > formally affiliated in any organization. well... many may disagree here. I can certainly speak to the sudden decline in members we had in Charlotte NC over the last few years. We had an exodus of members and potential members when TSA proposed their round of massive changes in the By-Laws. this was no natural cyclic action. It was an exodus of members who were unwilling to associate with TSA because of the perceived despotic intent of the changes .... > > It does not mean that THEOSOPHY has "failed," but, if anything, it ought to > inspire all those who have studied and been touched by the universal and > brotherly basis, and the moral value of Theosophy have to redouble their > individual efforts. > Theosophy cannot fail (by definition). But the *organizations* which claim to be theosophical may easily fail. (as pointed out by the founding Mahatma's themselves). john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:24:35 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: Valentine >> HAVE A HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY. THIS STORY IS JUST IN TIME FOR THE >> HOLIDAY. >> >> A Sweet Tale of Love: >> John Blanchard stood up from the bench, straightened his Army >> uniform, >> and studied the crowd of people making their way through Grand >> Central >> Station. He looked for the girl whose heart he knew, but whose face >> he >> didn't, >> the girl with the rose. >> His interest in her had begun thirteen months before in a Florida >> library. Taking a book off the shelf he found himself intrigued, not >> with >> the >> words of the book, but with the notes penciled in the margin. The >> soft handwriting reflected a thoughtful soul and insightful mind. In >> the >> front of the book, he discovered the previous owner's name, Miss >> Hollis >> Maynell. With time and effort he located her address. She now lived >> in >> New York City. He wrote her a letter introducing himself and >> inviting her >> to correspond. The next day he was shipped overseas for service in >> World >> War II. >> During the next year and one month the two grew to know each other >> through >> the >> mail. Each letter was a seed falling on a fertile heart. A romance >> was >> budding. Blanchard requested a photograph, but she refused. She felt >> that >> if he >> really cared, it wouldn't matter what she looked like. When the day >> finally came for him to return from Europe, they scheduled their first >> meeting - >> 7:00 PM at the Grand Central Station in New York. >> "You'll recognize me," she wrote, "by the red rose I'll be wearing on >> my >> lapel." So at 7:00 P.M. he was in the station looking for a girl >> whose >> heart he loved, but whose face he'd never seen. I'll let Mr. >> Blanchard >> tell >> you what happened: >> "A young woman was coming toward me, her figure long and slim. Her >> blonde hair lay back in curls from her delicate ears; her eyes were >> blue as >> flowers. Her lips and chin had a gentle firmness, and in her pale >> green >> suit she >> was like springtime come alive. I started toward her, entirely >> forgetting to >> notice that she was not wearing a rose. As I moved, a small, >> provocative >> smile curved her lips. "Going my way, sailor?" she murmured. >> Almost >> uncontrollably I made one step closer to her, and then I saw Miss >> Hollis >> Maynell. She was standing almost directly behind the girl. A >> woman >> well >> past 40, she >> had graying hair tucked under a worn hat. She was more than plump, >> her >> thick-ankled feet thrust into low-heeled shoes. The girl in the green >> suit >> was walking quickly away. I felt as though I was split in two, so >> keen was >> my desire to follow her, and yet so deep was my longing for the woman >> whose spirit had truly companioned me and upheld my own. >> "And there she stood. Her pale, plump face was gentle and sensible, >> her gray eyes had a warm and kindly twinkle. I did not hesitate. My >> fingers >> gripped the small worn blue leather copy of the book that was to >> identify me to her. This would not be love, but it would be >> something >> precious, something perhaps even better than love, a friendship for >> which I >> had been and must ever be grateful. I squared my shoulders and >> saluted >> and held out the book to >> the woman, even though while I spoke I felt choked by the bitterness >> of my >> disappointment. >> "'I'm Lieutenant John Blanchard, and you must be Miss Maynell. I am >> so >> glad you could meet me; may I take you to dinner?' >> "The woman's face broadened into a tolerant smile. 'I don't know what >> this is about, son,' she answered, 'but the young lady in the green >> suit >> who >> just went by, she begged me to wear this rose on my coat. And she >> said if >> you >> were to ask me out to dinner, I should go and tell you that she is >> waiting >> for >> you in the big restaurant across the street. She said it was some >> kind of >> test!'" >> It's not difficult to understand and admire Miss Maynell's wisdom. >> THE TRUE NATURE OF A HEART IS SEEN IN ITS RESPONSE TO THE >> UNATTRACTIVE. >> "Tell me whom you love," Houssaye wrote, "And I will tell you >> who you >> are." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:12:34 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE At 07:46 PM 2/13/98 +1100, you wrote: >I hope this is not too long. >-Bruce Yes, Bruce, Yes, Yes. This paper is so TRUE to the spirit of theosophy. I love you and bless you and thank you for preparing it. Bruce, we can be thankful for our three objects. Perhaps they were designed for us to AGREE to and not for us to participate in. Isn't it fun that John Algeo steps theosophy down to us ( I mean, the human being.)? Brotherhood? Uh - the masters better be prepared to mankind's dedication to their families and to their countries. Perhaps the Masters could work for the three objects through our T.S., but when they work through the country, they use other ideals. The family is so CHARACTERISTIC of man. I wonder how adepts live! Probably in cultural groups of sort. Maybe they don't value family, but we can still be strongly in support of family because that is what being human is. Think how much it helps our beloved animal kingdom to develop! I'm starting to think that the three objects are here for the Masters to accomplish, not us. What can't it be the masters who form a nucleus, encourage study, and investigate man, and us human beings can just agree to let them do it. John Algeo gave us something that we are capable of doing which is look deep within ourselves and when we do this we can find "The Masters." We can find the masters living within us and we can love them and thank them and know them and talk to them and they can make our lives thousands of times better than they ever were before. >If our personal view is so concentrated upon what we believe to be our >weaknesses, then how shall we develop that which is more worthy of our >consideration? We pay much too much attention to the minor faults and >disregard the major; whilst forgetting to be forever thankful to the Father >for the gifts already given. >Or perhaps the answer might be, "Oh, but I do that already!", without >reflecting as to whether one can really have done this enough, if in fact >the blessings have been itemised at all. It is a little like counting one's >money, only far better. There is meagre satisfaction in counting money and >checking to see if it is all there. For if one has more than enough, it >becomes merely an act of counting, and if there is a deficiency it becomes >more of a worry, because of that shortage. > >To some it appears as a painful and arduous task. But if we are to receive >many gifts in our life, we are firstly to know and use what we have and >secondly to know of our gratitude for them. By actively doing this our >entire outlook does brighten, and a certain confidence develops within the >man, who then stands firmer in the world. > >Quite often the remedy to our troubles is there before us and yet unseen. We >are to refine our attitudes and begin in small measures, seemingly, and find >that the results are astounding in respect to future changes which will be >effected, by the enhancement of our personal perspectives. > >One may be greatly assisted in the beginning, by actually vocalising those >blessings, loudly pronouncing in detail to oneself or to another. This is >not to suggest boasting of course, but to explain the concept of the >practice of grateful acknowledgment and then to take turns in such >conversation, expressing as many blessings as one can bring forth. Such an >interplay will certainly uplift the mood of the party and also be far more >productive than many an alternative form of conversation! > >Beware of opinions and comparisons however! This is not the intent of the >procedure. We must acknowledge that this is very subjective and not open to >conjecture, if it is indeed honest in reproduction. Also, one may never >truly be convinced when bringing to mind our treasured happinesses, this is >not the point. The point is the stimulation in the revealing and the >revelation of overwhelming gratitude which weeps from such vital >stimulation. The very fluids of the spiritual life pour from such >reverential thankfulness. Thank you, Bruce, I was very moved by your excellent insight. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:56:52 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Dwarf Galaxies Different facts that we learn from astronomy can widen our mental pictures of the world and help with our deeper philosophical thinking. Here's a new item in the news ... -- Eldon ---- Dwarf galaxy swallowed by Milky Way is visible in Sagittarius WASHINGTON, Feb 13 (AFP) - The Milky Way swallowed a much smaller, dwarf galaxy billions of years ago that now can be seen in the Sagittarius constellation, US and British astronomers said in a study published The Sagittarius galaxy, taking its name from the constellation, is a tenth the size of the Milky Way but has only one-millionth of its mass, said astrophysicist Rosemary Wise of Johns Hopkins University, in Baltimore, Maryland. Attracted by our galaxy's gravitational pull, Sagittarius circled the Milky Way 10 times in as many billions of years before it was sucked in to its present position, where it was detected in 1994 by the different motion of its stars. "Sagittarius has come right in ... it's close enough that you can study individual stars in it the same way that you study stars in our galaxy," Wise on Thursday told the annual conference of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The discovery could lend support to a widely held theory that many large galaxies, such as the Milky Way, were formed by the slow accumulation of smaller galaxies. Wise and her four colleagues have calculated that 10 percent of the Milky Way's halo, or outermost stars, originally came from dwarf galaxies that fused with ours over the past eight billion years. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:11:41 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>The only thing is that, as people further in their search, >>they should not forget to walk back to the first bridge once in a while and >>assist the new ones over. > >In genuine esoteric groups or schools, this is de facto law. When such >groups become elitist, they always fold, sooner or later. If they carry on, >they become fossilized, cease to be genuinely esoteric at all, attract >critics and enemies, and their leaders become more interested in >retaining power over their "followers". If any organisations spring to >mind, it will come as no surprise to me. Oh, and there are - honestly - >other organisations than the TS around who could be said to qualify. > >Alan :-) If there is anyone speaking for the "other side," I would like to hear why the TS has become "elitist." Did they become elitist because they feel it is necessary, or did they become elitist despite themselves? Do they feel they are being "elitist?" Please clarify for this semi-newbee. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:10:56 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Universal Brotherhood >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >> I >>did notice that when I make a suggestion of change because I cared, people >>are quick to respond. And sometimes people goes above and beyond my >>request. All this surprised me. > >A friend of mine many years ago, when working as a secretary, said in >a bit of a temper to her bosses, "If you wanted this to go urgently, why >couldn't you put a red blob or sticker on it or something!" > >A month later, all outgoing items were covered in various kinds of >stickers and blobs covering all aspects of the rainbow, complete with an >accompanying blob index. That's life :-) > >Alan If only that was the case with communication with the TS officers! A friend of mine just e-mailed me a bunch of asses. Remember emoticons, the smiley faces? Well, this is asscons. If I get frustrated enough with these talks, I'm going to e-mail the asscons to both theos-l and theos-talk. This is a real threat, you know. I'm already annoying enough with the amount of my e-mails today. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:11:18 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Universal Brotherhood Keith Fisher: >I am sure the President of TSA, John Algeo, is acutely aware of the >decreasing worldwide membership of the TS and would welcome any constructive >new ideas which would start to reverse this situation. Perhaps, instead of >criticism, the Board of Directors need input, feedback, and support for any >new approach it may take to promote theosophy in a light that would enthuse >more people to commit themselves to this high ideal of Brotherhood in this >age of materialism. > >Best wishes > >Keith Fisher >Perth Australia I agree with that. Haven't anyone heard of turning the other cheek? One idea: The officers of the TS have a direct chat session via computer. This is where Eldon's post regarding the instant e-mail system would come in handy. The announcement should be done well ahead of time so that those who would like to take part can have the time to prepare for it. Also, all theosophical discussion lists should be made aware of this event. I strongly believe that proper communication is one of the keys to resolving problems. Each side should be willing to keep the lines open, and each side should keep the accusation tone down. In modern psychology, the suggestion of proper communication would be like this: Side 1: Blah, blah, blah. Side 2: I hear you say blah, blah, blah. Do you mean blah, blah, blah? Side 1: Yes, I mean blah, blah, blah. Side 2: Okay, I understand your feeling of blah, blah, blah, but I yak, yak, yak. Etc., etc. :o) Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:14:13 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Universal Brotherhood >Dear Thoa: > >All you have mentioned is true. But here we are having a situation which >goes to the root of the future of TSA. > >My concern about putting Brotherhood/Sisterhood/Siblinghood first and >foremost is not out of my imagination. It came about as a result of some of >the messages that AP Sinnett got from Mahatma KH and which were reiterated >and reemphasized by HPB when Sinnett harped on putting emphasis on >mysteries and phenomenon as the best way to further Theosophy to the world. >In this context he was repeatedly told that Brotherhood is the key and even >if it is just a dream, at least a noble one. I will try to get some of the >material on this issue from the ML to APS later today when I have some time. > >Also if there has been a policy change in de-emphasizing Brotherhood as a >matter of official policy, then membership and public should be told so >(instead of taking an elitist hierarchical view.) > >When we see membership dwindling and lodges and centers on the decline, the >issue of the primary policies/objects of TS becomes very important and can >be decisive how far the decline can take place before the TSA itself is >shutdown (as a matter of fact in the by-laws, a provision has been made to >fold all the assets into the TIT Trust which does not have to answer anyone >-- Don't we all remember what happened in the Krishnamurti Trusts until the >California Attorney General had to sue the Trustees). > >mkr *************** *The term brotherhood to include man, woman, children, creatures and aliens.:o) Dear Doss, I now understand better what your concerns are. Your heart is in a good place. However, I do not think you expressed it very well in your statement to John Algeo. The problem is not who the TS will attract, but the focus of the TS. Your mentioning about "selfish" people only dilutes and confuses the issue. Worse still, it judges and accuses innocent people. Anyone who is interested in theosophical concepts, the mystery, and scholarship would be guilty under your description. I agree that an elitist point of view goes against everything that Brotherhood* stands for. Your accusing people of being selfish based on their interests also goes against what Brotherhood stands for. From several definitions posted, we see that Brotherhood also means tolerance for varying beliefs, tolerance for Theosophy and theosophy, assisting other Brothers on their paths, and includes the brothelhood of mankind. This also includes scholars, people in search of the mystical, etc. Intolerance for any would go against the idea of Brotherhood. Two wrongs don't make a right. Have your attempts to change things bring much fruit? If not, then maybe different avenues should be considered. It could start as small as changing the wording of your letters to people who could make a difference. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:13:27 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: "Brotherhood, Smotherhood" John Mead: >My actual concern is that the TSA is becoming much more like the ES. >Basically a specific religion worshiping some specific group of adepts with >a specific dogma and required way of life.... >One which inherently has a hierarchical view of even its own members! One >which discriminates between specific indvidual members according to their >particular religious beliefs or (even worse) by some perceived notion of >'level of adept-hood'. I agree that this is separating and goes against what t/Theosophy is about. >If you have not seen this type of behaviour coming out from TSA national >then you are looking through glasses fogged by your desire to *avoid* any >thought which may be labeled as 'negative'. Doss has made very healthy, >positive, observations. What makes them seem negative is due to the >fictional belief that *all* critical analysis is inherently negative and >creates bad 'vibes'. If you get bad 'vibes' over these discussions it is >probably because you feel you have to defend the other side. (? my guess). Until the "other side" has the chutzpah to speak up, it is good for someone to provide the opposing argument. In this way, we can get a clearer picture of the situation. >The majority of theosophists seem to find it easier to ignore bad ideas and >positions rather than correct them. The TSA leaders often use phrases like >"now, don't be negative!" as a way to guilt-trip an individual into >silence. That attitude actually *is* a very negative and damaging thought >form. (also - Thou shall not criticize thy church, or thy will be judged a >heretic!) We should also consider that negativity can also be destructive. Perhaps destructiveness can be a way of tearing down a structure so that we may rebuild. The T.S.A. is already quickly losing members, but this negativity is also preventing the T.S. from gaining any new members. With the advent of the internet, timid people are able to venture into territory that they have before been afraid to discover. Idealistic and wanting to share what's in their heart, they log onto a list, only to find bickering theosophists condemning their own organization. They cannot see that the bickering is due to the theosophists' love of their organization and a wish for change. From their newbee point of view, they see an environment not conducive to their growth. They couldn't care less about the politics and history. Realize that these newbees have only a tender amount of knowledge of theosophy, so tender that it could be easily squashed. Similar to what I asked Doss. I've been on this list for over a year now. I've heard the same arguments. Has this brought any positive changes? Is the negativity worth it? What is the gain, what is the loss? I agree with you that the lack of communication is also damaging. The "ignore the child" policy does not work! Not tending to the wound will only cause it to fester until the entity is destroyed. I encourage other theosophists to contribute to the conversation. If a theosophist feels that the conversation is too negative and will not be a party, then maybe that theosophist can contribute with positive comments. Silence can be a crime of acquiescence. >I think this discussion is very positive. It is very healthy. It gives to >me a feeling of renewal and hope to see theosophists questioning the >decisions of their elected servants. > >john e. mead Yes, it is healthy to communicate. However, you need to consider how you are communicating and its impact on other ears. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:48:54 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: GRATITUDE/TSA Even discounting what the Masters want to do or not to do, I think a certain amount of gratitude is due to the Founders -- HPB, Olcott and Judge for their sacrifices. All of them worked and sacrificed the prime of their life for Theosophy and TS; they were in the mid forties when started TS -- not after they retired after a full term of full time work earning a living. All of us are the beneficiaries of the sacrifices of the founders and we will have neither TS or Theosophy but for them. Having said this, what I tried to point out was what the foundation of TS as these founders saw (even though they received inspiration and encouragement and direction from their Teachers). Over the last one hundred years, none of the TS leaders have ever disputed the primary focus of TS - i.e. Brotherhood/Sisterhood/Siblinghood. Now what we seem to have is TSA taking off in a totally new direction with totally new emphasis. Each one of us can believe in anything we want and give any priority to one or more of the objects or anything else -- such freedom is inherently needed for everyone's growth. The issue I tried to address is when a National President (and the Board of Directors) of TSA seems to relegate the Brotherhood issue and try to present the TSA with a different emphasis -- mystery etc. there is no problem, legally. Fundamentally, the laws under which TSA is incorported gives them full legal authority as elected officials to almost do anything they want in running the organization. But the question that need to be addressed is why the change in the emphasis? Is it a marketing gimmick to induce public to join and/or buy the publications? Since TSA is an integral part of TS(Adyar), such shift in emphasis might be contrary to the long standing international policy and rules of Adyar and might eventually lead to TSA losing its charter, as it has happened in several countries. All these issues seem to be relevant. Hope they will be addressed soon and we can all know where the organization is headed for the next millenium. mkr At 11:12 AM 2/13/1998 -0800, you wrote: >At 07:46 PM 2/13/98 +1100, you wrote: >>I hope this is not too long. >>-Bruce > >Yes, Bruce, Yes, Yes. This paper is so TRUE to the spirit of theosophy. I >love you and bless you and thank you for preparing it. Bruce, we can be >thankful for our three objects. Perhaps they were designed for us to AGREE >to and not for us to participate in. Isn't it fun that John Algeo steps >theosophy down to us ( I mean, the human being.)? Brotherhood? Uh - the >masters better be prepared to mankind's dedication to their families and to >their countries. Perhaps the Masters could work for the three objects >through our T.S., but when they work through the country, they use other >ideals. The family is so CHARACTERISTIC of man. I wonder how adepts live! >Probably in cultural groups of sort. Maybe they don't value family, but we >can still be strongly in support of family because that is what being human >is. Think how much it helps our beloved animal kingdom to develop! > >I'm starting to think that the three objects are here for the Masters to >accomplish, not us. What can't it be the masters who form a nucleus, >encourage study, and investigate man, and us human beings can just agree to >let them do it. John Algeo gave us something that we are capable of doing >which is look deep within ourselves and when we do this we can find "The >Masters." We can find the masters living within us and we can love them and >thank them and know them and talk to them and they can make our lives >thousands of times better than they ever were before. > >>If our personal view is so concentrated upon what we believe to be our >>weaknesses, then how shall we develop that which is more worthy of our >>consideration? We pay much too much attention to the minor faults and >>disregard the major; whilst forgetting to be forever thankful to the Father >>for the gifts already given. > >>Or perhaps the answer might be, "Oh, but I do that already!", without >>reflecting as to whether one can really have done this enough, if in fact >>the blessings have been itemised at all. It is a little like counting one's >>money, only far better. There is meagre satisfaction in counting money and >>checking to see if it is all there. For if one has more than enough, it >>becomes merely an act of counting, and if there is a deficiency it becomes > >>more of a worry, because of that shortage. >> >>To some it appears as a painful and arduous task. But if we are to receive >>many gifts in our life, we are firstly to know and use what we have and >>secondly to know of our gratitude for them. By actively doing this our >>entire outlook does brighten, and a certain confidence develops within the >>man, who then stands firmer in the world. >> >>Quite often the remedy to our troubles is there before us and yet unseen. We >>are to refine our attitudes and begin in small measures, seemingly, and find >>that the results are astounding in respect to future changes which will be >>effected, by the enhancement of our personal perspectives. >> >>One may be greatly assisted in the beginning, by actually vocalising those >>blessings, loudly pronouncing in detail to oneself or to another. This is >>not to suggest boasting of course, but to explain the concept of the >>practice of grateful acknowledgment and then to take turns in such >>conversation, expressing as many blessings as one can bring forth. Such an >>interplay will certainly uplift the mood of the party and also be far more >>productive than many an alternative form of conversation! >> >>Beware of opinions and comparisons however! This is not the intent of the >>procedure. We must acknowledge that this is very subjective and not open to >>conjecture, if it is indeed honest in reproduction. Also, one may never >>truly be convinced when bringing to mind our treasured happinesses, this is >>not the point. The point is the stimulation in the revealing and the >>revelation of overwhelming gratitude which weeps from such vital >>stimulation. The very fluids of the spiritual life pour from such >>reverential thankfulness. > >Thank you, Bruce, I was very moved by your excellent insight. > >Brenda > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:05:15 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood A very positive move to use Internet. Let us wait and see. mkr At 12:11 PM 2/13/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Keith Fisher: >>I am sure the President of TSA, John Algeo, is acutely aware of the >>decreasing worldwide membership of the TS and would welcome any constructive >>new ideas which would start to reverse this situation. Perhaps, instead of >>criticism, the Board of Directors need input, feedback, and support for any >>new approach it may take to promote theosophy in a light that would enthuse >>more people to commit themselves to this high ideal of Brotherhood in this >>age of materialism. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Keith Fisher >>Perth Australia > >I agree with that. Haven't anyone heard of turning the other cheek? > >One idea: The officers of the TS have a direct chat session via computer. >This is where Eldon's post regarding the instant e-mail system would come >in handy. The announcement should be done well ahead of time so that those >who would like to take part can have the time to prepare for it. Also, all >theosophical discussion lists should be made aware of this event. I >strongly believe that proper communication is one of the keys to resolving >problems. Each side should be willing to keep the lines open, and each >side should keep the accusation tone down. In modern psychology, the >suggestion of proper communication would be like this: > >Side 1: Blah, blah, blah. >Side 2: I hear you say blah, blah, blah. Do you mean blah, blah, blah? >Side 1: Yes, I mean blah, blah, blah. >Side 2: Okay, I understand your feeling of blah, blah, blah, but I yak, >yak, yak. > >Etc., etc. :o) > >Thoa > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:35:31 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Re: Universal Brotherhood Peter R Calvert wrote: > My questions is these: > > 1. If the TS was directed in it's establishment from those who have humanity as a whole at > heart, where and who are the people who now have that quality of connection to the directors > (Mahatmas), are they being asked and what are they saying needs to be done, and are they being > listened to? Belief in the Masters was never a requirement for membership in the TS, and whether the leaders have any contact with these Masters at the present time is a matter of faith on the part of individual members. Therefore it is all a moot question. > 2. Is it true that the emphasis identified ~125 years is still relevant today? In whose opinion, > and with what authority? > When the objectives of an organization are no longer relevant, the organization must either change those objectives (therefore for all intents and purposes becoming a different organization) or cease to exist. If a supposedly democratic and consensual organization like the TS wants to change its objectives or change the emphases of those objectives, it seems to me that such a change would have to be made through the consensus of the entire membership. As for the emphases on brotherhood, I will have to agree with Doss. This has been the primary objective since 1880. But of the three objectives, the first has always been the TS's greatest failure--a state of affairs both the Mahatmas and HPB have commented upon. If the TS and/or the TSA chooses the de-emphasize the first object, then IMO, it is just one more example of the failure of the TS to bring this object into realization. For whatever my opinion is worth (and I claim no authority for it), I believe that the first object is just a relevant today as it was when first established. To de-emphasize it, IMO, is a serious mistake. JJHE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:04:51 -0800 From: "Mark Kusek" Subject: B of M Welcomes New Member! > Thoa wrote: > > From several definitions posted, we see that Brotherhood also means tolerance > for varying beliefs, tolerance for Theosophy and theosophy, assisting other > Brothers on their paths, and includes the brothelhood of mankind. The "brothelhood of mankind!?" Where can I join? ;-) Mark From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:31:25 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Re: Universal Brotherhood Feb 13 1998 Dear Thoa: O. "Elitist" -- now that designation cannot be used among those for whom BROTHERHOOD is the first criterion for study work and assistance to others. In life there are always those who have learned more than others, and if they use that as a basis for claims of authority, then they are in error. Seated in the hart of every being is the Ray of the UNIVERSE. Universality demands that the same potentials exist in each one, whether we discuss atoms, molecules, cells, organs or organisms, minerals, plants, animals or humans -- innate in each is an imperishable and immortal MONAD ( Atma-Buddhi, or UNIVERSALITY - WISDOM). So how can "elitism" be logically countenanced by any one ? Anyone pretending to such an elevation is due for a serious fall, and in such a "fall" others who relied on him and his views will also "fall." And that is very unfortunate and if one thinks about it, it will be seen that this aspect of "blind following" is the one great cause for the decline and fall of religions, philosophies, political parties, and organizations. On the other hand, if members and associates are left free to formulate their own loyalties and such bonds are made on the basis of universal principles, you will find that those create an association of trust and of knowledge which is shared equally and this leads to responsibility, and right duty. Also, no one should mentally or verbally endow another with praise or some form of acclaim which would place that individual over others. It is quite ridiculous. Once that reliance is placed on one's own perception of truth and one earnestly seeks to increase that perception and not to isolate or to make it his only, there is progress and others join in the work that is recognized to be free and valuable. On the other hand some respect is due to all others for their work, their knowledge and this is no more than courtesy. I believe that the "'Golden Rule" applies to all equally: "Do to others that which you would expect them to do to you." I do hope this gets rid of this idea which only emphasizes separateness, and not true brotherhood and close concern for what others need and deserve. All good wishes to you as always Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:51:50 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood Dear John: Thanks for the additional comments. In regard to the decline in membership due to "despotic proposals," I found that back in 1919 - 1921 in the American Section T S a similar attempt was made and resisted. Mr. B.P.Wadia of the T S Council, India was here. He was deeply concerned with the effort to abridge the democratic nature of the administration of the T S. He actively spearheaded resistance to that proposal. He had become a member of the American Section TS and so had the right to respond on behalf of free speech. The President of the American Section complained to A. Besant in Adyar of this "interference." Her response was that Mr. Wadia probably had good reason for his actions and had her confidence. As to why Mr. Wadia was in America. He had been asked by a Committee of the British Parliament to come to London and give testimony at hearings concerning the Labor conditions in India (he was President of the Madras Labor Union - the first labor union organized in India). At the time of this work he had been a member of the T S in India since his teems and had worked closely with Col. Olcott the President Founder and Mrs.. Besant who succeeded him and had done work for Theosophy under both of them of a very responsible nature. He was basically a student of HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE, and based his talks and actions on what she taught there. He was, working with Mrs. Annie Besant in various capacities, and was the Manager of the TPH in Adyar and sub-editor of Young India, also a member of the T S Council. In any case when he came to Los Angeles and stayed at Krotona ( then in Hollywood ) he discovered the United Lodge of Theosophists by seeing an ad. placed for one of their lectures in the L.A.Times. He attended and found that those at the "ULT" were studying straight HPB Theosophy out of the "Secret Doctrine." And, also, he came in contact with the writings of W.Q.Judge. He soon realized that the membership of the T S had been kept away from familiarity with Judge's writings owing to the rift of 1895 -- a whole chapter in T S history. But -- that is another story -- as Kipling would say. To cut a long story short he returned to India and spoke a number of times with A B, and tried to persuade her to make public that which she said in private to him (and others) namely, that W.Q.Judge had been misjudged and wronged. He was not able to get her to change her public posture in regard to that matter, so after a couple of years he resigned and became a simple associate of the ULT -- and that is, thereafter, becomes the subject of several more chapters in T S history. I spent most of my youth in the same house where he lived and am quite familiar with the early history of the Movement and the TS and ULT. When I wrote of a "natural cyclic action" what I meant was a phenomenon that is noticeable world-wide. If and when brotherhood is not practiced how can support "behind the scenes" be continued ? I was thinking of this wider cycle rather than that which is visible here. The hope for the future is that HPB's writings are published and many "out there" are independently studying and acquiring ideas from them. To realize the actual power of Theosophical wisdom and knowledge one need only watch the impact of theosophical ideas on our world in matters of benevolence and care for the infirm, the aged, and those who are far weaker than we are. Concern for GAEA, the living earth,. and its more helpless portions is heart warming. The practice of knowledge is what Theosophy has universally encouraged. At least, these are my own ideas and thanks for noticing. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:05:42 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Gratitude I read some of the long long post of beehive. Hum,i remember that great musical group of the 70's, Earth,Wind,&Fire. with a lot of mystical magical words in the letters of their songs. They have a song of one of their best albums, called "Grattitude" beautiful song. Somebody here knows the complete words of the song?? it would be interesting reading them here. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:33:01 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Comunication of High and elevated taughts >the >suggestion of proper communication would be like this: > >Side 1: Blah, blah, blah. >Side 2: I hear you say blah, blah, blah. Do you mean blah, blah, blah? >Side 1: Yes, I mean blah, blah, blah. >Side 2: Okay, I understand your feeling of blah, blah, blah, but I yak, >yak, yak. > >Etc., etc. :o) > >Thoa > I taught this was the normal way of comunication!!! hahahahahaahahahahahaha :P A very profund way, i would say,jehehehe Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:17:10 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE Dear Brenda says in part: >This paper is so TRUE to the spirit of theosophy. I >love you and bless you and thank you for preparing it. You can thank T.T. for encouraging me to post this work by B.Hive. Fraternally, Bruce From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:10:09 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE Dear Dallas you write >As to present consciousness, and as to ecstasy -- I am wondering who is the >"I" that now contemplates either going into such a state, or reviews having >been there ? You are correct in this pondering that the mystic reaches a state of ecstacy by expanding his consciousness out from himself, (from the Greek 'put out of place'). Ultimately his 'I' becomes one with the Divine 'I' and under normal circumstances an individual loses consciousnessness. The highly developed mystic however is able to retain his consiousness in what could be a dangerous process, as all highly passionate excercises are. Is this the "Nabia" of the old Kabalists ? [ Isis I p. >xxxvii ] Not on my reading of it. Talking of Kapila the Hindu philosopher - "in ecstacy a man has the power of seeing Deity face to face and conversing with the "highest" beings..." Isis 1 p121 4th ed >Or perhaps a state attained upon drinking the "Soma juice ?" [ Is I xl ] These days people take 'ecstacy' which BTW was originally derived from nutmeg oil. This is of course a shallow reflection. >Is it something we control at will, or is it a condition into which we >involuntarily fall ? I would have thought it cannot be forced or as with passionate ecstasy ever repeated in the same way. Cordially Yours, Bruce From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:33:28 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: A LOVING attitude IF folk who wish for 'quick results' within their development, were to be far nicer to all during one single day - actually exert themselves, fervently try, nothing else - then the results would be astounding. We continually overlook the obvious, we oversee the simple facts and impede our divinity by such ignorance. And so we require stimulation and provocation. We dismiss, in a single exclamation “Oh, I know that,” without experiencing such knowledge. A simple concentration of concerted effort within our attitude and response to others brings results which are doubly rewarding. And it is because of the conscious intent and the effort instilled by such desire, that the correspondents shall be similarly ignited; if not, are singularly aware of the 'difference'. It is not so much that one wishes to feel good, but to be good in what one does. It is surely preferable to upset, and halfhearted interjections. That by our presence, we seek to illumine our corner of the globe with showers of: radiant helpfulness, happiness, encouragement, enthusiasm, and keen interest, with consideration. Let the student exercise this, particularly those who wish to advance and attain their golden stars. For this is the primary mark of a man; whether he be a thunderous shadow or whether he does give back most properly, some reflection of the heavenly attitude. How should we wish to be assailed? How best should we respond, to this: the loving touch? To the bull-headed, to those who have misty clouds around their forehead; to those who impinge, to those who protest; to the vain and the stupid; to both stranger, and lover - to embrace all men with loving attitude, and make effort in this. And it is in every holy writ that this is plead and pledged, and made much of. One can be reminded ever yet, again and again, and still be not forthcoming. Here is the application and activity of the spiritual noviciate. And the training may be ever improved upon; and will be tested radically throughout. And the heart becomes glad, because it is finally given license to perform as it does best. And it is known to those who strive actively to take measures of exerting a wondrous influence to greater degrees. It is experienced wholeheartedly, and self-explanatory; being yet the best teacher of all. One does not look for affirmation or requested results, but only seeks to be in that attitude which gives to the day, to the time, to all people; and relaxes. That we are willingly, actively, testing ourselves and our betterment, by seeking out our best face in all circumstance, within all desires. To be a lover of the world, to be concentrated upon the good in all. For we are only true to ourselves when we live and become the highest expectation; regarding less the illusion that would suggest anything else, otherwise. -Mr.B.Hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:27:24 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: elitist Dallas writes: >So how can "elitism" be logically countenanced by any one ? >Anyone pretending to such an elevation is due for a serious fall, >and in such a "fall" others who relied on him and his views will >also "fall." > >And that is very unfortunate and if one thinks about it, it will >be seen that this aspect of "blind following" is the one great >cause for the decline and fall of religions, philosophies, >political parties, and organizations. > >On the other hand some respect is due to all others for their >work, their knowledge and this is no more than courtesy. I >believe that the "'Golden Rule" applies to all equally: "Do to >others that which you would expect them to do to you." The nature of some work is elitist and it doesn't bother me to attend a seminar where there is an elite group doing the presenting of their work. Boards are elite because they attend meetings that do not welcome the public. Elite is not a negative thing except when used wrongly. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:33:26 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Did WQ Judge believe he was in contact with the discarnate Mme Blavatsky? If he did, were the messages from Blavatsky to Judge coming through Katherine Tingley? Soon after Judge's death, did Mrs Tingley "channel" the discarnate Judge for the benefit of Judge's close associates in New York City? I'm trying to do research on these aspects of Judge's life. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:11:37 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood Dallas: While I had some bits and pieces of Wadia's background and his departure, I did not get the full story -- not surprising since such information in pre Internet days is easily suppressed as the powers be that control the official publication do decide what and when and how any information is published. I am very glad to see your msg. Is there any publication which gives full details? mkr At 03:51 PM 2/13/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Dear John: > >Thanks for the additional comments. In regard to the decline in membership >due to "despotic proposals," I found that back in 1919 - 1921 in the >American Section T S a similar attempt was made and resisted. Mr. B.P.Wadia >of the T S Council, India was here. He was deeply concerned with the effort >to abridge the democratic nature of the administration of the T S. He >actively spearheaded resistance to that proposal. > >He had become a member of the American Section TS and so had the right to >respond on behalf of free speech. The President of the American Section >complained to A. Besant in Adyar of this "interference." Her response was >that Mr. Wadia probably had good reason for his actions and had her >confidence. > >As to why Mr. Wadia was in America. He had been asked by a Committee of the >British Parliament to come to London and give testimony at hearings >concerning the Labor conditions in India (he was President of the Madras >Labor Union - the first labor union organized in India). At the time of >this work he had been a member of the T S in India since his teems and had >worked closely with Col. Olcott the President Founder and Mrs.. Besant who >succeeded him and had done work for Theosophy under both of them of a very >responsible nature. He was basically a student of HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE, >and based his talks and actions on what she taught there. He was, working >with Mrs. Annie Besant in various capacities, and was the Manager of the TPH >in Adyar and sub-editor of Young India, also a member of the T S Council. > >In any case when he came to Los Angeles and stayed at Krotona ( then in >Hollywood ) he discovered the United Lodge of Theosophists by seeing an ad. >placed for one of their lectures in the L.A.Times. He attended and found >that those at the "ULT" were studying straight HPB Theosophy out of the >"Secret Doctrine." And, also, he came in contact with the writings of >W.Q.Judge. He soon realized that the membership of the T S had been kept >away from familiarity with Judge's writings owing to the rift of 1895 -- a >whole chapter in >T S history. But -- that is another story -- as Kipling would say. > >To cut a long story short he returned to India and spoke a number of times >with A B, and tried to persuade her to make public that which she said in >private to him (and others) namely, that W.Q.Judge had been misjudged and >wronged. He was not able to get her to change her public posture in regard >to that matter, so after a couple of years he resigned and became a simple >associate of the ULT -- and that is, thereafter, becomes the subject of >several more chapters in T S history. I spent most of my youth in the same >house where he lived and am quite familiar with the early history of the >Movement and the TS and ULT. > >When I wrote of a "natural cyclic action" what I meant was a phenomenon that >is noticeable world-wide. If and when brotherhood is not practiced how can >support "behind the scenes" be continued ? I was thinking of this wider >cycle rather than that which is visible here. > >The hope for the future is that HPB's writings are published and many "out >there" are independently studying and acquiring ideas from them. To realize >the actual power of Theosophical wisdom and knowledge one need only watch >the impact of theosophical ideas on our world in matters of benevolence and >care for the infirm, the aged, and those who are far weaker than we are. >Concern for GAEA, the living earth,. and its more helpless portions is heart >warming. The practice of knowledge is what Theosophy has universally >encouraged. > >At least, these are my own ideas and thanks for noticing. Dallas > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:05:42 -0600 From: "Govert Schuller Subject: Re: Cyril Scott etc Received this from John Laidlaw, who gave permission to share this e-mail. >Sir, > >I have read, with interest, much of the content of the Alpheus website. > >References to Cyril Scott caught my eye in the correspondence from Ms Jean >Overton Fuller (for whose works I have a great deal of respect) and your >printed reply. > >The writings of Scott featured strongly in the early years of my 'search' >into metaphysical matters - some 30 odd years ago - and I wonder if I may >add one or two comments of my own. > >Scott, in his autobiography, manages to still leave us somewhat mystified >over the central character 'JMH' in his wonderful 'Initiate' books by still >referring to the afterword in an edition of Outline of Modern Occultism >where he states that '.... the material was given to me by someone else >whose identity could not be revealed.' > >Having said that, the main characters appearing within that series of books >are clearly named within the autobiography .... Brian Ross (David Anrias), >Nelsa Chaplin (Christabel Portman), Florin Jones (Toni Bland and, of >course, Rose Allatini (Viola) - his real wife. One can assume from this >alone that the bulk of the stories are based on actualities. > >As to the central character - JMH - elsewhere in the autobiography, much is >made of Scott's interest in Tantrik Yoga and his association with a >remarkable teacher of physiological Yoga - Dr. P.A.Bernard. Scott describes >this man as a 'great Yogi', one who was able to 'hold his breath for 10 >minutes at a time and go off into samadhi'. > >Some years after reading the Initiate books and before obtaining the >autobiography, I came across a book on Hatha Yoga written by a certain >Theos Bernard.... > >I quote from the preface .... > >'....I became the sincere disciple of a highly esteemed teacher and settled >down at his retreat in the hills near Ranchi..... > > In order to further my studies, it was suggested by my teacher that I go >to Tibet..... My first intimate contact with the training as it is found in >Tibet was through a renowned hermit on the border in northern Sikkim..... >My travels culminated in a pilgrimage to the holy city, Lhasa where I was >accepted as an incarnation of a Tibetan saint....' > >Dr. Bernard gained access to manuscripts and training through his >acceptance as a re-incarnating saint and subsequently gained the facility >to enter samadhi etc. > >I have always, since obtaining this priceless book of teaching, had a >sneaking suspicion that the Dr. P.A. Bernard mentioned by Scott and Dr. >Theos Bernard M.A., Ph.D., LL.B were one and the same and were the >inspiration behind J.M.H. > >Consider the following text, printed within the inside of the second leaf >of this book... > >'This account of the death of the author was related by Mr.G.A.Bernard, the >author's father: > > "In 1947, Theos Bernard was on a mission to the KI monastery in western >Tibet in search of some special manuscripts. While on his way, rioting >broke out among the Hindus and the Moslems in that section of the hills; >all Moslems including women and children in the little village from which >Theos departed were killed. > > "The Hindus then proceeded into the mountains in pursuit of the Moslems >who had accompanied Theos as guides and muleteers. These Moslems, it is >reported, learning of the killings, escaped, leaving Theos and his Tibetan >boy alone on the trail. It is further reported that both were shot and >their bodies thrown into the river. > > "To date we have not been able to get any authentic information on the >entire circumstances of his death, nor have we any line on the effects >Theos had with him. That region of Tibet is so very remote that it is >unlikely we shall ever learn the full details." > >How very sad .... but how very 'Damodar..esque'. > >Makes you wonder, doesn't it? > >The Book is Hatha Yoga by Theos Bernard and published by Rider & Company. > >Regards, > >John Laidlaw > ['Hatha Yoga' and 'Hindu Philosophy' by Bernard are at Olcott.] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:14:22 EST From: "Pat Reda" Subject: Re:"Brotherhood, Smotherhood" please give me some brief examples of this negativity From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:41:20 EST From: "Pat Reda" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood just out of curiosity. are the members not renewing their memberships or are they just dying out? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:48:06 EST From: "Pat Reda" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood why not ask john to come on this website on a given evening? after all, he is the pres. and the pres. in his role should consider him/herself as the servant of the members From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:55:07 EST From: "Pat Reda" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate ... i thought that neither blavatsky nor olcott believed in channeling. at least that's what i thought i read in the old diary leaves. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:17:35 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Comunication of High and elevated taughts >>the >>suggestion of proper communication would be like this: >> >>Side 1: Blah, blah, blah. >>Side 2: I hear you say blah, blah, blah. Do you mean blah, blah, blah? >>Side 1: Yes, I mean blah, blah, blah. >>Side 2: Okay, I understand your feeling of blah, blah, blah, but I yak, >>yak, yak. >> >>Etc., etc. :o) >> >>Thoa >> >> > >I taught this was the normal way of comunication!!! >hahahahahaahahahahahaha :P >A very profund way, i would say,jehehehe >Estrella Hi Estrella, mi amiga, "jehehehe", is that Spanish for hehehehe? :o) I don't know what happened today. Again, my guide, the comedic Chohan struck again. Some of the stuff, like the above, was a little humor, but the big laughs of the day were not intentional. I figured out how I happened to accidentally eMoon the theos-l with my asscons, and you were partly responsible! When you posted a few days ago with your new e-mail address, I did an automatic address entry from your post. It didn't occur to me at that time that your post was actually from theos-l. Thus, under Estrella was the theos-l e-mail address. I thought I privately e-mailed the joke to you, but ended up e-mailing to theos-l. And then on top of that, I mistyped brotherhood into brothelhood! Must be some subliminal thing. Okay, the comedic Chohan is telling me to get off my high horse. I'm going to go under a rock and read some private posts that require focusing on. Have a great weekend! Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 06:55:50 GMT From: "Pat F" Subject: The Teaching - K. Long --------------EA47E8A4F1C0077075B53006 Greetings to everyone, I am wondering if any of you is familiar with Kathleen Long and "the teaching" she claimed to have received. I am fairly new to "spiritism" and communications with the dead, but am reasonably familiar with theosophy. I have read the summary of the teaching available at Spirit WWW, and I've never read more detailed claims about the reincarnation process, e.g. the "three important chapters". I don't remember Mr. Judge mentioning such things in his Ocean of Theosophy, but I wonder how it fits into Theosophy. Does anyone have similar thoughts? Thanks..., Pat From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:33:52 +0700 From: "Visanu Sirichote" Subject: Re:Re: Universal Brotherhood Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote : >For whatever my opinion is worth (and I claim no authority for it), I believe that the first object is >just a relevant today as it was when first established. To de-emphasize it, IMO, is a serious mistake. Yes, and to over-emphasise Brotherhood out of proportion of the other two objects will result in propaganda and hypocrisy, we always see that in fallen ideologies both religious and political. Real Brotherhood must come from realising oneness with the others and acquiring the ability to control ourselves and external forces of nature to benefit humanity. Both will be accomplished by adherence to the second and third objects. Real LOVE is always accompanied or suffers to be accompanied by WISDOM and WILL. Visanu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:23:25 +0700 From: "Visanu Sirichote" Subject: Re:Cyril Scott John Laidlaw message forwarded by Govert Schuller : >>As to the central character - JMH - elsewhere in the autobiography, much is >>made of Scott's interest in Tantrik Yoga and his association with a >>remarkable teacher of physiological Yoga - Dr. P.A.Bernard. Scott describes >>this man as a 'great Yogi', one who was able to 'hold his breath for 10 >>minutes at a time and go off into samadhi'. The real identity of the mysterious personage 'J.M.H.' always intrigues readers of Scott's books. After he had finished his first book of the 'Initiate Series' during the first world war, Scott made contact with the Master K.H. for the first time in 1921 through Nelsa Chaplin, a most accomplish clairvoyant who also possessed astonishing psychometrical powers and had been in touch with K.H. since her childhood. The master told him that for a numbers of years he had been telepathically impressing ideas upon him, both regarding his music and his books. "It was he who in the first place had actually prompted me to relate the story of the man I called 'J.M.H.' The Masters had wished to put the books through as an experiment in the hopes that they might bring some enlightenment to many who were groping in darkness." The setting of the first book was in London and the book was written before Scott met Dr. P.A. Bernard in Nyack during his American tour, J.M.H in this book was unlikely to be him. Even so, it must be an account by one of his pupils, not Scott. J.M.H. in the second book was a combination of at least both K.H. and Dr. Bernard. It was K.H. who had advised Scott to marry Rose Allatini (Viola) against his preconceived notions, this and other teachings were incorporated into J.M.H.'s . The setting of evening talks given by J.M.H. in Boston during 1920-1921 correlated well with activities of Dr. Bernard at that time in Nyack. Although Scott joined the tantrik order and attained the talks he did not take Dr. Bernard as his master. Scott never met Dr. Bernard again after he left America in 1921, J.M.H. in the third book was definitely not him. More accounts of Dr. P.A. Bernard may be found in the book 'The Unending Quest' by Sir Paul Dukes. By the way, there is a portrait of Cyril Scott by George Neale on the web at: http://www.uib.no/herrmann/cover/sp_cs12.gif Visanu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:36:03 GMT From: "Kazimir Majorinc" Subject: Differences between TS and New Acropolis? Dear theosophists, The TS Lodge in Croatia where I used to go before ten years became part of the organization called New Acropolis. What are the doctrinal and organizational differences between TS's and NA? What do you think about this NA organization? Is it stil teosophy, or something different, on your opinion. I heard that they are accused for some extreme right political ideology, but I have no evidence for it yet. Sincerely, ______________________________________________________________ Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:49:30 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: the Judge-Tingley controversy There was a lot of controversy about the relationship between Judge and Madame Tingley, all having to do with claims of succession. In THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, it says Judge "recognized her true occult position several years before his death and approved her activities as a psychometer". (p. 268) I would like to know abou this myself. Very curious ! Did he just accept willy- nilly her psychic messages from wherever? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:35:30 GMT From: "Kazimir Majorinc" Subject: Differences between TS and New Acropolis? Dear theosophists, The TS Lodge in Croatia where I used to go before ten years became part of the organization called New Acropolis. What are the doctrinal and organizational differences between TS's and NA? What do you think about this NA organization? Is it stil teosophy, or something different, on your opinion. I heard that they are accused for some extreme right political ideology, but I have no evidence for it yet. Sincerely, ______________________________________________________________ Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:38:50 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Re:Re: Universal Brotherhood In a message dated 98-02-13 01:19:54 EST, Visanu asked: << Can you give me more information on Brian Ross, I've read his three books wrote under the name David Anrias with interest. I've also read BONE OF CONTENTION but can't find any reference to Thomas More, how could Cyril Scott consider him as one of his gurus? >> Some neo-theosophical writers (and also Alice Bailey and Douglas Baker, I believe) refer to an "English Master" one of whose incarnations was the Renaissance Catholic saint and martyr, Sir Thomas More. His best known work was UTOPIA, a prophetic vision of communal democracy. This same Master seems to have had a subsequent incarnation as the poet Robert Browning. The "Initiate" series of books written by Cyril Scott refer to this mysterious figure in veiled terms. There is a specific reference to an English Master (as Sir Thomas) in Scott's THE INITIATE IN A DARK CYCLE . I don't have access to all my books since most of them are in storage. I remember, however, that Cyril Scott regarded this English Master and the Master Kuthumi as his personal gurus. Most of his communications to and from these personages were through trance channellers. Eileen J. Garrett, the famous British medium, may have been part of this tightly knit group of independent esotericists who skirted the periphery of the Theosophical Movement. I think I remember her writing something about this in her autobiography. I don't know the details of Ross' life offhand except that he was an English visionary artist and astrologer. He spent some years at Adyar. While there, he went on a search for the high Adept who was/is in charge of India, referred to by C. W. Leadbeater as the Master Jupiter. He is sometimes referred to as the Rishi of the Nilgiri Hills. Ross claimed to have discovered Him in a place not all that far from Madras. A portrait of Him can be found in THROUGH THE EYES OF THE MASTERS. Blessings Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:46:42 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Re:Valentine Bjorn: It was touching to read the "A Sweet Tale of Love" story that you posted. It tells of the importance of caring for someone as a person, regardless of how they appear. It doesn't matter how old, well-dressed, attractive, etc. that the other is, so much as the heart/mind sharing that grows between the two. Apart from the traditional reading of the story, though, I'm left with an odd feeling about what happened. At one level, it still says that young, attractive women are a prize that people with good hearts will one day attain, if they prove themselves caring enough. The idea that a woman in her 40's that wears old hats is a big disappointment that only the most self-sacrificing people would be drawn towards is awful. Communicating on the Internet, we make friends in much the same way that the soldier in your story did -- without seeing or knowing our Internet friends in person. It doesn't matter how old, healthy, well-dressed, attractive, wealthy, etc. that our friends are -- we can still be the best of friends. In fact, the lack of physical contact allows us to come to know each other without the usual prejudices that we may have been brought up with keeping us apart. These prejudices may activate unconsciously, but with no cues, they lay dormant. We get to know each other on a heart/mind basis, and the external attributes of personality don't get in the way. We have, in effect, an excellent opportunity to practice Universal Brotherhood. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:47:59 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:The Teaching - K. Long Feb 14th 1998 Dear Pathfinder: If you have Judge's OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- a short book of about 180 = pages - could you review the chapters 8, 9, and 10 on Reincarnation. = Link this with Karma (Chapter 11), and, if you desire to understand the = basis for "spiritualism" and "channeling" you can read with profit = Chapters 5, 12, and especially 1 and 17 wherein he reviews PSYCHIC LAWS, = PHENOMENA and SPIRITUALISM. Judge's work is an epitome of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. It tallies closely = with HPB's KEY TO THEOSOPHY, but if you choose to use that you will best = go by using the Index and look up what she has to say under the subjects = you are interested in. The KEY is relatively short, (306 pages) In = the first part she deals with the doctrines of Theosophy: the nature of = Man and the Universe, the division of the "principles," their use during = life and after death, life-after-death phenomena, Devachan and = reincarnation. The latter part of the book explains the practice of = Theosophy one becomes convinced of its usefulness in daily life. Have fun. The more that you get to know and understand for yourself, = the better. A summary given to you by any one of us, would not equal = what HPB or Judge can say on the subjects. Best wishes, = Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:55:58 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Regarding your previous question concerning the reference for Olcott believing that Judge forged a Mahatma letter warning Besant that Olcott planned to poison her: see Old Diary Leaves, 4th series, pg. 508. Compare this to the actual letter reproduced in the Garrett pamphlet (which you say that you already have). Regarding your current inquiry: may I ask where you got these notions that inspired you to compose such questions in the first place? I have seen similar statements in anti-Judge and anti-Tingley propaganda, but what is your source material that has inspired such questions? You will find a statement in Besant's 1906 London Lectures where she tells members of her conversation with Judge who had been dead for ten years. She says that Judge had repented for the wrongs he had done and was now working with her plans for the TS from the other side. But this is a source document--and you didn't ask about Besant contacting discarnate leaders--did you? JJHE David Green wrote: > Did WQ Judge believe he was > in contact with the discarnate > Mme Blavatsky? > > If he did, were the messages from > Blavatsky to Judge coming through > Katherine Tingley? > > Soon after Judge's death, did Mrs > Tingley "channel" the discarnate > Judge for the benefit of Judge's > close associates in New York City? > > I'm trying to do research > on these aspects of Judge's life. > > David Green > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:53:27 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:the Judge-Tingley controversy I think we have to be careful about painting the psychism issue with too broad of a brush. HPB did make a distinction between clairvoyance, spiritual clairvoyance and mediumship. It was the latter that she was against, because the medium does not have control over the phenomena. Psychometry is not in this category. After Judge died and Tingley took over, Alice Cleather joined Tingley's world crusade. By the time they got to India, Cleather became disillusioned with Tingley. Cleather concluded from her experiences with Tingley that Judge had been duped by her. On the other hand, there were others who followed Tingley believing her a remarkable woman. Different strokes for different folks. I think that there is evidence that Tingley did have psychic abilities, but she since she did not show them off to the membership, recorded instances are few and far between. Tingley was also a very charismatic speaker and talented at organizing people together. Whatever Judge saw in her, Tingley's abilities went far beyond just being a good neighborhood psychic. JJHE Lmhem111@aol.com wrote: > There was a lot of controversy about the relationship between Judge and Madame > Tingley, all having to do with claims of succession. In THE THEOSOPHICAL > MOVEMENT, it says Judge "recognized her true occult position several years > before his death and approved her activities as a psychometer". (p. 268) I > would like to know abou this myself. Very curious ! Did he just accept willy- > nilly her psychic messages from wherever? > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:40:35 EST From: "Baileyg (Glen)" Subject: Re: Sir Thomas More, et al ..... Greetings, my Fraternal Brothers & Sisters, I address you as a fellow theosophist, though not associated currently with any "theosophical organization" anymore. My Karma led me to "The United Lodge of Theosophists" in London, Ontario a few years back where I studied the original publications of H.P.B and W.Q. Judge. My Karma then landed me in Ottawa, Ont., where I remain. I would like to contribute what I feel to be truth as to the identity of Sir Thomas More. I offer some of his more notable incarnations, up to his most recent. Where I get this information, you should concern yourselves with, for it is from the modern Movement of the Masters. Here then, I include from most ancient to most recent, taken from a web site (of which I am affiliated) and the book "The Chela and the Path": Abraham, the ancient patriarch who emerged from Ur of the Chaldees to become the prototype and progenitor of the twelve tribes of Israel. Returning as Melchior, one of the three wise men of the East, he followed the star that portended the birth of the best of his seed who would fulfill all the promises of God unto his spiritual descendants. As Arthur, king of the Britons, he summoned knights of the Round Table and ladies of the court of Camelot to quest the Holy Grail and to attain through initiation the inner mysteries of Christ. Appearing again on Britain's soil as Thomas Becket as well as Thomas More, both martyred, he twice played the role of defender of the Faith and challenger of King Henry--also twice born (Henry II and VIII), and twice the oppressor. In the sixteenth century, his soul's journey took him to the East in the person of Akbar, greatest of Mogul emperors, and in the nineteenth to Ireland to be her poet laureate Thomas Moore. Next he appeared as El Morya Khan, perhaps the most renowned of the Tibetan mahatmas. Paradoxically, little biographical information of a traditional nature is available about El Morya Khan. It is known that he was born a Rajput prince in the Indian class of warriors and rulers esteemed for their courage and honor. The date of his birth is uncertain. What makes the life of El Morya so notable is his far-reaching work in the merging of the ancient spiritual truths of the East with the traditions of the West. This was accomplished largely through the founding of the Theosophical Society in the latterpart of the last century and the subsequent instruction released through that organization by the Master Morya and his longtime friend, the Master Koot Hoomi Lal Singh. This instruction came in part in the form of personal letters addressed to but a handful of Theosophical students, chelas of the "Mahatma of the Himavat." These letters are now on file with the British Museum in London. Found also within the society's literature are occasional awe-filled testimonies of the few Theosophists that were visited by this Himalayan adept who, for the most part, preferred to remain unidentified by the outer world. The writings of these disciples reveal that many strove for even the slightest contact with El Morya. In 1898, El Morya Khan ascended to the heart of God. The Ascended Master El Morya Khan is the Lord (Chohan) of the First Ray of God's Will and Chief of the Darjeeling Council of the Great White Brotherhood. The Master's extraordinary devotion to God's word and work is a powerful stream that runs throughout his soul's incarnations on earth as he has stood staunch in the role of advocate, teacher, and exemplar before our spirits soaring unto Love. Any theosophist worthy of the name is questioning the validity of this material. Certainly I did. Some of you have questions which I am pleased to attemp answers to. I am equally happy to offer the web-site to those interested is also finding the string of embodiments of Master Kuthumi (K.H., or Koot-Hoomi). You will forgive me, I hope, if you get no reply back from me. I ask all to question the source of any material that comes your way, but be open to its possibilities. I do not respond to those who do not ask nicely. And why should anyone? Is it a virtual certainty that the above will be met with disbelief and even hostility by the few? It is likely. I don't respond to carnal or "lower self" argumentation. I have responsibilities like everyone as theosophists. Do you need leaders of a Society to tell you what you duties are? Surely not, or at least the Founders I have studied never propounded such external reliance on a governing Board. but, I digress... In any case, thanks for your attention. Please direct your email to "theoschela@aol.com" Fraternally, I am; Glen * * * In a message dated 2/14/98 1:13:06 PM EST, you write: << Some neo-theosophical writers (and also Alice Bailey and Douglas Baker, I believe) refer to an "English Master" one of whose incarnations was the Renaissance Catholic saint and martyr, Sir Thomas More. His best known work was UTOPIA, a prophetic vision of communal democracy. This same Master seems to have had a subsequent incarnation as the poet Robert Browning. The "Initiate" series of books written by Cyril Scott refer to this mysterious figure in veiled terms. There is a specific reference to an English Master (as Sir Thomas) in Scott's THE INITIATE IN A DARK CYCLE . I don't have access to all my books since most of them are in storage. I remember, however, that Cyril Scott regarded this English Master and the Master Kuthumi as his personal gurus. Most of his communications to and from these personages were through trance channellers. Eileen J. Garrett, the famous British medium, may have been part of this tightly knit group of independent esotericists who skirted the periphery of the Theosophical Movement. I think I remember her writing something about this in her autobiography. >> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:45:10 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: An idea We have been discussing about the idea of having communication with the officials via the internet. How about starting an e-mail chain letter writing campaign to this effect? The letter will be addressed to Olcott and written as a courteous invitation. The letter could be written and cross-checked by several people to make sure that the letter has good intent. This chain letter could also have the support of respected people within the T.S. Einar of Iceland comes to mind, since he seems sympathetic to all theosophists. Each theosophist receiving the letter could sign it with the e-mail address and position. Theosophists at large could also sign the letter. After signing, each theosophist will e-mail it out to all the theosophists they know. One person could be in charge of collecting the e-mails. Thus, after signing, the recipient should also cc the person collecting the e-mails. The intent of this request for contact should be to increase communication and understanding, and not as a way of lynching. Whatever gripes one may have, the officers should be given lots of respect for their position. It doesn't mean you bury your concerns, but it does mean you word it in a way that doesn't block communication. If we do get an audience with the officers, think of this as a way for future communication to be established, and not destroy the opportunity. The letter could also contain the technical aspects of setting up communication. It should be well-detailed, serious, and leaves no detail unturned. Any feedback would help, otherwise this idea will just go nowhere. Thanks, Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:39:03 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood Magi42@aol.com wrote: > why not ask john to come on this website on a given evening? after all, he is > the pres. and the pres. in his role should consider him/herself as the servant > of the members Oh good! I need someone to clean my house! Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:44:01 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate ... Magi42@aol.com wrote: > i thought that neither blavatsky nor olcott believed in channeling. at least > that's what i thought i read in the old diary leaves. Depends on your definition of channeling. Certainly, they believed that once one's body died, the lower portion ceased to exist within a week or so, leaving only the reincarnating part (atma, budhi, and budhi manas), so that they had no reason to communicate with the living. On the other hand, they definitely believed that it was possible to channel LIVING entities, such as the Mahatmas. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:11:07 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Differences between TS and New Acropolis? I do not know about NA, but some one else may be able to throw some light. However, I vaguely recall there were some organizational disputes regarding TS years ago and it could be that some of the lodges may have moved into NA. I am also posting this on theos-l so that if anyone there knows something they could respond. mkr At 06:36 PM 2/14/1998, you wrote: >Dear theosophists, > >The TS Lodge in Croatia where I used to go before ten years became part of >the organization called New Acropolis. What are the doctrinal and >organizational differences between TS's and NA? What do you think about >this NA organization? Is it stil teosophy, or something different, on your >opinion. I heard that they are accused for some extreme right political >ideology, but I have no evidence for it yet. > >Sincerely, >______________________________________________________________ > Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. > Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb > mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:28:09 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication The following is the contents of a letter of which I have a photocopy. It pertains to the question regarding why the Yugoslavia Section split with Adyar. It would be interesting if anyone else has other information regarding what happened. What I wonder about when reading the letter is how things can get so polarized, so fragmented, so driven apart. When our dark suspicions of others grow to the point that we portray them as evil, enemies of our work, and when we no longer talk to them, so there's no "reality check" to naysay our dark imaginings, we've made each other into monsters of our own creation. Just as, in our positive support of others, encouraging them in their spiritual work, we add brightness and light into the world, similarly, in our negative *and unsubstantiated* suspicions about others, we bring darkness and gnawing hatred into the world. What's important is that we always keep open lines of communication, brotherliness, and a spirit of cooperation, and not shun and demonize our fellow Theosophists. -- Eldon ---- THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN YUGOSLAVIA Gen. Sec.: Emilio Trampuz Proleterskih brig. 226 F 41000 Zagreb YUGOSLAVIA Zagreb, 18th March 1984. All General Secretaries and other active members of The Theosophical Society Dear brother co-workers, I am writing to inform you that the Theosophical Society in Yugoslavia is not a Section of the International Society any more, at least temporarily, even though we are still working for the original Cause for which the Society was established. The separation from Adyar which has occurred is only administrative. You are probably interested to know how and why it happened. It is useful to know, because the same might happen in your own Section too. Like most Sections, we too had a group of conservative and a group of more liberal and broad-minded members. It was the latter who did most of the work, whereas the conservatives did the criticizing. This is not unusual. In spite of the differences, for many years there was at least a recognition of the fact that we are all working for the same Cause, each in its own way. But during the last two or three years there was a dramatic change for the worse. The person most responsible for it is Jennifer Krevel, an English lady married to Leon Krevel, who is a Yugoslav and who has for many years been president of Lodge "Service" in the town of Ljubljana. It was Jennifer Krevel who did most harm to our Section and precipitated its separation from Adyar. It is interesting to note that earlier in time Jennifer did not show any interest whatsoever in our Section. She was not even a member, although her husband was a Lodge president. Then, suddenly, she decides to join our Section, and soon after that she takes over the leadership of the Lodge from her husband and starts with her destructive activity, in which she has steadily persisted during the last three years. Naturally, she herself could not do much harm. She never got much support from our members. But it seems she has strong connections with some members of the European Federation, "esoteric" connections, and judging by her sudden involvement in our work and by the instant support she received from some of the leaders of the European Federation, it would not seem improbable that she was instructed from abroad and received a mission to accomplish, which she did very well, as is seen from the end results. For the past three years, Jennifer has engaged in purely destructive criticism. She has undoubtedly criticized anyone who contributed actively to the work within our Section. She has fanatically tried to denigrate most of the leaders of our Section. She has criticized our Summer School, our publications, and our work in general, accusing us of being too broad and universal, not "theosophical" enough. She wanted to impose on all our members a uniform and rather narrow understanding of Theosophy. This is, in fact, our main point of disagreement, which causes all the other misunderstandings. Most of us define something as "theosophical" if it helps the spiritual evolution of man, if it helps his growth and deepens his inner awareness. Jennifer and her supporters in Lodge "Service", however, see as theosophical only that which comes from Adyar or from our most prominent members; everything else is "untheosophical". But there is another important difference between us. We have never tried to impose anything on them, whereas Jennifer Krevel has constantly tried to force her views on everyone else. She herself is unable to see anything spiritual or valuable outside of our Society, and she would like to impose the same limited view on all our other members. She is thus degrading Theosophy into just another religion with its own dogmas, and with Adyar being a kind of infallible authority whose judgement is not to be questioned. We would not blame her for holding such views if she did not try to impose them on others and if she were not so destructive in her activity. She has criticized and slandered even things she knows nothing about, or even when she had no real arguments. For example, she has criticized us for doing Sufi Dancing / a type of devotional practice with music / at our Summer Camp, but she has never said what is so "untheosophical" about it. Sufi Dancing has been done at numerous Summer Schools in America, New Zealand, in Belgium / in Spa /, in Huizen, and in Adyar / when John Coats was President / . Similarly, Jennifer has criticized us for teaching people the principles of positive thinking, and for teaching concentration, relaxation and visualization exercises which cannot be found in books published by T.P.H. She has criticized the work of Lodge "Phoenix" without ever having seen it and without ever attending any of its meetings. She has criticized our whole Executive Committee for changing its own decisions in accordance with the changing circumstances. With her constant criticism at the meetings she has almost paralyzed the work of the Executive Committee. She has made the work of Lodge "Brotherhood", which shared the same premises with her own Lodge, very difficult, by trying to control all its activities, behaving in a very autocratic manner. She has even acted directly against our General Secretary, preventing a meeting of his with members of Lodge "Brotherhood", at which he was supposed to give a talk on the Evolution of Man. On that occasion, she wanted to impose a different theme for the meeting, and gave us an ultimatum: if we do not accept her own topic, we must leave the premises -- which we did. Jennifer has similarly tried to control all the activities within our Section. She has broken the basic principles of the Theosophical Society, the principles of brotherhood, tolerance and the freedom of thought in the Society. Due to her constant destructive criticism, she has greatly damaged the reputation of our Society in the public because her activities are the reverse of what a theosophist should be doing, and her own example repels people from our Society. Finally, Jennifer has done all that was within her power to destroy the reputation of our Section abroad, by writing slanderous letters and giving a totally distorted picture of our work. As a result of this kind of activity, Radha Burnier, our international President simply canceled the Charters of five of our Lodges, which constitute 80% of our Section, and also canceled the membership of 8 of the most active workers and leaders of our Section, including our General Secretary, our Vice president, our Secretary, and the Lodge presidents. In other words, it was an attempt to destroy our Section as such. At the same time, Radha gave her full support to Jennifer Krevel and her Lodge "Service", as well as to two other small Lodges which have sided with Jennifer. Radha now considers these three Lodges to be the only representatives of the Adyar Theosophical Society in Yugoslavia. Needless to say, our members, especially the older ones are very distressed at this, disillusioned, and disappointed in Adyar. Some can hardly believe that such a decision can come from Adyar. To satisfy the form, before making the above decision, Radha has sent someone from the European Federation to investigate the situation in oar Section. However, this investigator was obviously biased. She / a lady / spent A WHOLE WEEK in the town of Ljubljana, with Jennifer and her supporters, planning their moves, and then spent only two days in Zagreb, where the headquarters of our Section is located, excusing herself that she did not have more time. In Ljubljana she talked to everyone; in Zagreb she met only three people and REFUSED to talk to the others, saying that it is not important what the others may have to say, as they can say nothing new. In this way she did not give our members an opportunity to present to her the real state of affairs. Radha Burnier explains her decision to cancel the Lodges and expel our members giving as the main reason / and ONLY reason / the fact that we have allowed a certain Lodge to be formed, a Lodge which is being led by a person whose theosophical knowledge has been gathered outside the limits of our Society, but who has been working very devotedly for our Section for the past three years. The decision to form the new Lodge was made by our Executive Committee, with 9 votes in favor of it, 3 withheld from voting, and no one was against it -- not even Jennifer Krevel. Now, the interesting thing is that the list of the 8 expelled members does not correspond to the list of the 9 members who have voted for the formation of the new Lodge. In fact, it is quite different. Our Treasurer, for example, has voted for the new Lodge but was not expelled. Jasna Zubcic, president of another Lodge, voted for, but was not expelled. On the other hand, Igor Jerman, former Vice-president, had no voting power at that meeting, but was nevertheless expelled by Rahda Burnier. Upon further analysis, it soon becomes clear that the list of expelled members matches exactly the list of people who have signed a petition against Jennifer Wrevel in August 1983, asking that disciplinary action be taken against her. So, it is obvious that the reason Radha Burnier quotes is not the real one. It is obvious that Radha has simply sided with the most conservative, dogmatic and destructive elements in our Section, and has expelled all those who have opposed it. But, let us return to our Section. Not content with all the harm already done to the theosophical movement here, Jennifer and her supporters are now claiming the Society for themselves, even though they are only a small minority in fact. We could not just give up and hand over to them the results of years and years of our work. If we allowed them to take over the Society, who would carry on the work? Who would continue all the publishing projects? Who would take care of the large distribution of our books through bookstores around the country? Who would continue the public lectures and courses we organized? Who would organize the Summer Schools? All this work has been done by us alone. Jennifer and her Lodge never showed any interest in continuing the work. They only criticized it, and even diminished the activity of their own Lodge by closing their library to non-members. Clearly, we could not permit our Society and our work to fall apart just like that. But, as long as we were a Section of the International Society, Jennifer could claim the right to take over our Society, on the basis of Radha Burnier's official order, which states that the Yugoslav Section is now being represented only by Jennifer's Lodge. Therefore, we HAD TO separate ourselves from the international Society, IN ORDER TO SAVE THE WORK. Our decision to proclaim the Yugoslav Section independent from Adyar was made at a special Convention, which had been announced to discuss the situation even before we received Radha Burnier's order. Our decision was made UNANIMOUSLY, because Jennifer and her few supporters boycotted the Convention by not comming. I would like to stress that it is only an administrative move to protect our Society and our work. We would be only too happy to return to the International Society if it stopped supporting those who would like to make a religion out of Theosophy, and who so deliberately undermined all positive activity in our Section for years now. But we feel we do not have many friends left in Adyar. John Coats, Jean Raymond, B. R. Mullik are all dead now. They have been very much in support of our work. Brother Mullik, who was the last one of them to visit us, said that he sees great potential in our country and forsees a bright future for the theosophical movement here. In fact, he even intimated that he believes Yugoslavia may play an important role in the future development of the Theosophical Society, for he saw a lot of life and energy here. Radha Burnier, on the other hand, has never been very sympathetic. She has never been here, but she has some negative feelings about Yugoslavia. Is it, perhaps, because Yugoslavia was one of the few countries which gave more votes to Rukmini in the last elections? Or is it because she knows our General Secretary from the time he worked with John Coats in Adyar, editing the magazine PHONIX RISING which was not to her liking? Our Section was never involved or interested in the internal politics within the Society. All we wanted was to be able to concentrate on the work of spreading Theosophy, making people more aware of spiritual values, helping them to deepen their understanding and their awareness. But we were constantly subjected to pressure from the dogmatic conservatives, and constantly had to justify our work and prove its correctness. We wasted so much time and energy in this, because they were deaf and blind to all our arguments. It is impossible to reason with someone whose mind works on one track only. We were hoping that we shall finally have some peace now. Jennifer Krevel has reached her goal to a certain extent. She had written to Adyar more than a year ago expressing a desire to form an independent Branch within Yugoslavia, separate from the Yugoslav Section. Radha Burnier has now, in fact, given her blessing, and Lodge "Service" can now easily register themselves in Ljubljana under the name of "The ADYAR Theosophical Society in Yugoslavia", whereas we would remain simply "The YUGOSLAV Theosophical Society", registered in Zagreb. In fact, we have already submitted our decision to the authorities in Zagreb. It would be only natural to expect that they will do the same in Ljubljana. Then we could both concentrate on the work, each in their own way. But no! Jennifer wants to keep on fighting us. She has told us openly that she intends to keep on fighting us "even if it takes until she dies". She and her husband / who is a retired lawyer / have already been in Zagreb a couple of times to talk to the local authorities to warn them against us! Is this theosophical brotherhood? Is this the result of a lifetime of theosophical studies? Has her action anything to do with real Theosophy / divine wisdom / ? It is difficult for you, who have not experienced it, to imagine the extent of Jennifer's destructiveness, or even to believe that a member of our Society could act in this way. But it is all true, and Radha Burnier supports it. Our authorities, fortunately, are not blinded by dogmatism, and they see clearly that there is nothing wrong with our work. So, we carry on, as active as ever, bringing forward LIGHT ON THE PATH as our next publication, and a translation of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE soon to follow. In the meantime, Jennifer has spread a lot of slanders and untruths about us. If you have heard any of it and would like to hear our explanation of it, we have prepared a longer exposition of all points of disagreement. So, if you are interested to hear it all more in detail, we can send you a copy. We are enclosing here a copy of a letter sent to Radha Burnier from our Convention in January 1984. This will also tell you a bit more about all the work we are doing here. We are now tired of justifying our work and explaining how it really is. This letter is only to inform you of what is going on. We hope it is the last such letter, and that we shall finally be free to concentrate on the work itself. Wishing you all the best in your work! -- Emilio Trampuz, Gen. Sec. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 03:29:06 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Eldon B Tucker wrote: > What I wonder about when reading the letter is how things > can get so polarized, so fragmented, so driven apart. When > our dark suspicions of others grow to the point that we > portray them as evil, enemies of our work, and when we no > longer talk to them, so there's no "reality check" to naysay > our dark imaginings, we've made each other into monsters > of our own creation. Does the President of the TS have the authority to unilaterally throw out members and sections? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:32:05 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication In a message dated 98-02-15 03:48:22 EST, you write: << Does the President of the TS have the authority to unilaterally throw out members and sections? >> Canadian Section was excommunicated several years ago, an issue which has been discussed on theos.talk previously. Was this the action of the Int'l President alone or in conjunction with the Adyar BOD? Wasn't the Swedish Section jettisoned from the TS as well? And when one is thrown out, does one have to do penance before getting back in? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:27:26 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication First of all thanks to Eldon for the letter and I think he hit the nail on its head. Anytime anyone or any lodge or any section is made to leave TS, it is very sad. We had the situation in Denmark, and Canada where similar events have taken place. I am yet to see any light thrown on these situations from the TS side. Lack of any information makes one wonder what is the "real" reason for the decisions. We had the situation in Boston Lodge. During the TSA By-laws change which was presented as "house keeping", when allegations were made that the members were accused of attempting to take the property and distribute between themselves (which was challenged by a member who was then the Secretary of the lodge to which there were no replies), the only response from TSA was that the it was too complicated to explain as if the members are not intelligent enough to understand. Add to this is the confused direction of TSA as presented in the recent posts quoting some of the pronouncements. Lack of openness and information is not helping the situation. In the past, what was happening in one country, the neighboring countries are kept in the total darkness. (It was couple of years before Denmark discovered about events in Yugoslavia). No more. Internet e-mail, maillists and newsgroups have changed all that. Add to this is the fact that the leadership not taking advantage of the Internet as a communication medium either due to lack of understanding of the potential of the medium and/or as a deliberate policy or don't yet know how to deal with the medium. On the other hand, what we see is Internet is breaking down of the walls that exist between the organizations. Theosophists belonging to all the organizations and belonging to none, discuss here various issues as brothers and sisters and siblings. No "editing" No censorship -- totally open. All this for free courtesy of a few committed open minded Theosophists. No dues, no fees to be paid. This may be the future for Theosophy. Of course those who are comfortable with a Theosophy "religion" based on specific "beliefs" (I emphasize because anything based on personal knowledge is no longer a belief) and don't want to think for themselves and solve problems themselves will only be comfortable in a "religion" type of a set up. May be time is running out for the formal set up used during last 100 years and TS organizations turning into publishing houses. Who knows? Time only can tell. mkr At 11:28 PM 2/14/1998 -0800, you wrote: >The following is the contents of a letter of which I have a >photocopy. It pertains to the question regarding why the >Yugoslavia Section split with Adyar. It would be interesting >if anyone else has other information regarding what happened. > >What I wonder about when reading the letter is how things >can get so polarized, so fragmented, so driven apart. When >our dark suspicions of others grow to the point that we >portray them as evil, enemies of our work, and when we no >longer talk to them, so there's no "reality check" to naysay >our dark imaginings, we've made each other into monsters >of our own creation. > >Just as, in our positive support of others, encouraging them >in their spiritual work, we add brightness and light into >the world, similarly, in our negative *and unsubstantiated* >suspicions about others, we bring darkness and gnawing >hatred into the world. What's important is that we always >keep open lines of communication, brotherliness, and a >spirit of cooperation, and not shun and demonize our fellow >Theosophists. > >-- Eldon > >---- > >THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN YUGOSLAVIA >Gen. Sec.: Emilio Trampuz >Proleterskih brig. 226 F >41000 Zagreb >YUGOSLAVIA >Zagreb, 18th March 1984. > >All General Secretaries >and other active members >of The Theosophical Society > >Dear brother co-workers, > >I am writing to inform you that the Theosophical Society in >Yugoslavia is not a Section of the International Society any >more, at least temporarily, even though we are still working for >the original Cause for which the Society was established. The >separation from Adyar which has occurred is only administrative. >You are probably interested to know how and why it happened. It >is useful to know, because the same might happen in your own >Section too. > >Like most Sections, we too had a group of conservative and a >group of more liberal and broad-minded members. It was the >latter who did most of the work, whereas the conservatives did >the criticizing. This is not unusual. In spite of the >differences, for many years there was at least a recognition of >the fact that we are all working for the same Cause, each in its >own way. But during the last two or three years there was a >dramatic change for the worse. > >The person most responsible for it is Jennifer Krevel, an English >lady married to Leon Krevel, who is a Yugoslav and who has for >many years been president of Lodge "Service" in the town of >Ljubljana. It was Jennifer Krevel who did most harm to our >Section and precipitated its separation from Adyar. > >It is interesting to note that earlier in time Jennifer did not >show any interest whatsoever in our Section. She was not even a >member, although her husband was a Lodge president. Then, >suddenly, she decides to join our Section, and soon after that >she takes over the leadership of the Lodge from her husband and >starts with her destructive activity, in which she has steadily >persisted during the last three years. > >Naturally, she herself could not do much harm. She never got >much support from our members. But it seems she has strong >connections with some members of the European Federation, >"esoteric" connections, and judging by her sudden involvement in >our work and by the instant support she received from some of the >leaders of the European Federation, it would not seem improbable >that she was instructed from abroad and received a mission to >accomplish, which she did very well, as is seen from the end >results. > >For the past three years, Jennifer has engaged in purely >destructive criticism. She has undoubtedly criticized anyone who >contributed actively to the work within our Section. She has >fanatically tried to denigrate most of the leaders of our >Section. She has criticized our Summer School, our publications, >and our work in general, accusing us of being too broad and >universal, not "theosophical" enough. She wanted to impose on > >all our members a uniform and rather narrow understanding of >Theosophy. > >This is, in fact, our main point of disagreement, which causes >all the other misunderstandings. Most of us define something as >"theosophical" if it helps the spiritual evolution of man, if it >helps his growth and deepens his inner awareness. Jennifer and >her supporters in Lodge "Service", however, see as theosophical >only that which comes from Adyar or from our most prominent >members; everything else is "untheosophical". But there is >another important difference between us. We have never tried to >impose anything on them, whereas Jennifer Krevel has constantly >tried to force her views on everyone else. She herself is unable >to see anything spiritual or valuable outside of our Society, and >she would like to impose the same limited view on all our other >members. She is thus degrading Theosophy into just another >religion with its own dogmas, and with Adyar being a kind of >infallible authority whose judgement is not to be questioned. > >We would not blame her for holding such views if she did not try >to impose them on others and if she were not so destructive in >her activity. > >She has criticized and slandered even things she knows nothing >about, or even when she had no real arguments. For example, she >has criticized us for doing Sufi Dancing / a type of devotional >practice with music / at our Summer Camp, but she has never said >what is so "untheosophical" about it. Sufi Dancing has been done >at numerous Summer Schools in America, New Zealand, in Belgium / >in Spa /, in Huizen, and in Adyar / when John Coats was >President / . Similarly, Jennifer has criticized us for teaching >people the principles of positive thinking, and for teaching >concentration, relaxation and visualization exercises which >cannot be found in books published by T.P.H. She has criticized >the work of Lodge "Phoenix" without ever having seen it and >without ever attending any of its meetings. She has criticized >our whole Executive Committee for changing its own decisions in >accordance with the changing circumstances. With her constant >criticism at the meetings she has almost paralyzed the work of >the Executive Committee. She has made the work of Lodge >"Brotherhood", which shared the same premises with her own Lodge, >very difficult, by trying to control all its activities, behaving >in a very autocratic manner. She has even acted directly against >our General Secretary, preventing a meeting of his with members >of Lodge "Brotherhood", at which he was supposed to give a talk >on the Evolution of Man. On that occasion, she wanted to impose >a different theme for the meeting, and gave us an ultimatum: if >we do not accept her own topic, we must leave the premises -- >which we did. Jennifer has similarly tried to control all the >activities within our Section. She has broken the basic >principles of the Theosophical Society, the principles of >brotherhood, tolerance and the freedom of thought in the Society. > >Due to her constant destructive criticism, she has greatly >damaged the reputation of our Society in the public because her >activities are the reverse of what a theosophist should be doing, > >and her own example repels people from our Society. > >Finally, Jennifer has done all that was within her power to >destroy the reputation of our Section abroad, by writing >slanderous letters and giving a totally distorted picture of our >work. > >As a result of this kind of activity, Radha Burnier, our >international President simply canceled the Charters of five of >our Lodges, which constitute 80% of our Section, and also >canceled the membership of 8 of the most active workers and >leaders of our Section, including our General Secretary, our Vice >president, our Secretary, and the Lodge presidents. In other >words, it was an attempt to destroy our Section as such. > >At the same time, Radha gave her full support to Jennifer Krevel >and her Lodge "Service", as well as to two other small Lodges >which have sided with Jennifer. Radha now considers these three >Lodges to be the only representatives of the Adyar Theosophical >Society in Yugoslavia. Needless to say, our members, especially >the older ones are very distressed at this, disillusioned, and >disappointed in Adyar. Some can hardly believe that such a >decision can come from Adyar. > >To satisfy the form, before making the above decision, Radha has >sent someone from the European Federation to investigate the >situation in oar Section. However, this investigator was >obviously biased. She / a lady / spent A WHOLE WEEK in the town >of Ljubljana, with Jennifer and her supporters, planning their >moves, and then spent only two days in Zagreb, where the >headquarters of our Section is located, excusing herself that she >did not have more time. In Ljubljana she talked to everyone; in >Zagreb she met only three people and REFUSED to talk to the >others, saying that it is not important what the others may have >to say, as they can say nothing new. In this way she did not >give our members an opportunity to present to her the real state >of affairs. > >Radha Burnier explains her decision to cancel the Lodges and >expel our members giving as the main reason / and ONLY reason / >the fact that we have allowed a certain Lodge to be formed, a >Lodge which is being led by a person whose theosophical knowledge >has been gathered outside the limits of our Society, but who has >been working very devotedly for our Section for the past three >years. The decision to form the new Lodge was made by our >Executive Committee, with 9 votes in favor of it, 3 withheld from >voting, and no one was against it -- not even Jennifer Krevel. >Now, the interesting thing is that the list of the 8 expelled >members does not correspond to the list of the 9 members who have >voted for the formation of the new Lodge. In fact, it is quite >different. Our Treasurer, for example, has voted for the new >Lodge but was not expelled. Jasna Zubcic, president of another >Lodge, voted for, but was not expelled. On the other hand, Igor >Jerman, former Vice-president, had no voting power at that >meeting, but was nevertheless expelled by Rahda Burnier. > >Upon further analysis, it soon becomes clear that the list of >expelled members matches exactly the list of people who have >signed a petition against Jennifer Wrevel in August 1983, asking > >that disciplinary action be taken against her. So, it is obvious >that the reason Radha Burnier quotes is not the real one. It is >obvious that Radha has simply sided with the most conservative, >dogmatic and destructive elements in our Section, and has >expelled all those who have opposed it. > >But, let us return to our Section. > >Not content with all the harm already done to the theosophical >movement here, Jennifer and her supporters are now claiming the >Society for themselves, even though they are only a small >minority in fact. We could not just give up and hand over to >them the results of years and years of our work. If we allowed >them to take over the Society, who would carry on the work? Who >would continue all the publishing projects? Who would take care >of the large distribution of our books through bookstores around >the country? Who would continue the public lectures and courses >we organized? Who would organize the Summer Schools? All this >work has been done by us alone. Jennifer and her Lodge never >showed any interest in continuing the work. They only criticized >it, and even diminished the activity of their own Lodge by >closing their library to non-members. > >Clearly, we could not permit our Society and our work to fall >apart just like that. But, as long as we were a Section of the >International Society, Jennifer could claim the right to take >over our Society, on the basis of Radha Burnier's official order, >which states that the Yugoslav Section is now being represented >only by Jennifer's Lodge. Therefore, we HAD TO separate >ourselves from the international Society, IN ORDER TO SAVE THE >WORK. > >Our decision to proclaim the Yugoslav Section independent from >Adyar was made at a special Convention, which had been announced >to discuss the situation even before we received Radha Burnier's >order. Our decision was made UNANIMOUSLY, because Jennifer and >her few supporters boycotted the Convention by not comming. I >would like to stress that it is only an administrative move to >protect our Society and our work. > >We would be only too happy to return to the International Society >if it stopped supporting those who would like to make a religion >out of Theosophy, and who so deliberately undermined all positive >activity in our Section for years now. > >But we feel we do not have many friends left in Adyar. John >Coats, Jean Raymond, B. R. Mullik are all dead now. They have >been very much in support of our work. Brother Mullik, who was >the last one of them to visit us, said that he sees great >potential in our country and forsees a bright future for the >theosophical movement here. In fact, he even intimated that he >believes Yugoslavia may play an important role in the future >development of the Theosophical Society, for he saw a lot of life >and energy here. > >Radha Burnier, on the other hand, has never been very >sympathetic. She has never been here, but she has some negative >feelings about Yugoslavia. Is it, perhaps, because Yugoslavia >was one of the few countries which gave more votes to Rukmini in >the last elections? Or is it because she knows our General >Secretary from the time he worked with John Coats in Adyar, > >editing the magazine PHONIX RISING which was not to her liking? > >Our Section was never involved or interested in the internal >politics within the Society. All we wanted was to be able to >concentrate on the work of spreading Theosophy, making people >more aware of spiritual values, helping them to deepen their >understanding and their awareness. But we were constantly >subjected to pressure from the dogmatic conservatives, and >constantly had to justify our work and prove its correctness. We >wasted so much time and energy in this, because they were deaf >and blind to all our arguments. It is impossible to reason with >someone whose mind works on one track only. > >We were hoping that we shall finally have some peace now. >Jennifer Krevel has reached her goal to a certain extent. She >had written to Adyar more than a year ago expressing a desire to >form an independent Branch within Yugoslavia, separate from the >Yugoslav Section. Radha Burnier has now, in fact, given her >blessing, and Lodge "Service" can now easily register themselves >in Ljubljana under the name of "The ADYAR Theosophical Society in >Yugoslavia", whereas we would remain simply "The YUGOSLAV >Theosophical Society", registered in Zagreb. In fact, we have >already submitted our decision to the authorities in Zagreb. It >would be only natural to expect that they will do the same in >Ljubljana. Then we could both concentrate on the work, each in >their own way. > >But no! Jennifer wants to keep on fighting us. She has told us >openly that she intends to keep on fighting us "even if it takes >until she dies". She and her husband / who is a retired lawyer / >have already been in Zagreb a couple of times to talk to the >local authorities to warn them against us! Is this theosophical >brotherhood? Is this the result of a lifetime of theosophical >studies? Has her action anything to do with real Theosophy / >divine wisdom / ? > >It is difficult for you, who have not experienced it, to imagine >the extent of Jennifer's destructiveness, or even to believe that >a member of our Society could act in this way. But it is all >true, and Radha Burnier supports it. > >Our authorities, fortunately, are not blinded by dogmatism, and >they see clearly that there is nothing wrong with our work. So, >we carry on, as active as ever, bringing forward LIGHT ON THE >PATH as our next publication, and a translation of THE VOICE OF >THE SILENCE soon to follow. > >In the meantime, Jennifer has spread a lot of slanders and >untruths about us. If you have heard any of it and would like to >hear our explanation of it, we have prepared a longer exposition >of all points of disagreement. So, if you are interested to hear >it all more in detail, we can send you a copy. > >We are enclosing here a copy of a letter sent to Radha Burnier >from our Convention in January 1984. This will also tell you a >bit more about all the work we are doing here. We are now tired >of justifying our work and explaining how it really is. This >letter is only to inform you of what is going on. We hope it is >the last such letter, and that we shall finally be free to >concentrate on the work itself. > >Wishing you all the best in your work! > >-- Emilio Trampuz, Gen. Sec. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:35:46 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication At 09:32 AM 2/15/1998 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-15 03:48:22 EST, you write: > ><< Does the President of the TS have the authority to unilaterally > throw out members and sections? >> > >Canadian Section was excommunicated several years ago, an issue which has been >discussed on theos.talk previously. Was this the action of the Int'l President >alone or in conjunction with the Adyar BOD? Wasn't the Swedish Section >jettisoned from the TS as well? And when one is thrown out, does one have to >do penance before getting back in? The International President with the approval of the General Council can cancell the charter. The rules can be found at: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ The Danish Section also had its charter cancelled. Then there was litigation about the assets and Adyar group lost their claims in two courts and that is where it stands. I don't know why any one would do any penance to get back for what. All the Theosophical Classics were put out long time ago and there is nothing new that has come out. No reason for anyone to belong to any organization any more. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:17:21 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Lmhem111@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-02-15 03:48:22 EST, you write: > > << Does the President of the TS have the authority to unilaterally > throw out members and sections? >> > > Canadian Section was excommunicated several years ago, an issue which has been > discussed on theos.talk previously. Was this the action of the Int'l President > alone or in conjunction with the Adyar BOD? Wasn't the Swedish Section > jettisoned from the TS as well? And when one is thrown out, does one have to > do penance before getting back in? The Canadian Lodges were thrown out on a technicality. In order to maintain tax-exempt status, they had to remove language from their by-laws that they were part of the TS in Adyar, which meant that Adyar had to amend (or ignore) TS by-laws in order to keep Canada in. If I were a director at Adyar, I probably would have vociferously recommended that the amendment be passed. I would be greatly surprised if the reason the action was not made was political in nature. On the other hand, the Canadian Lodges seem to be doing fine without Adyar. In the American Section, I have studied the by-laws regarding this carefully (although I don't know the power of Adyar to override). If a simple majority of the BOD decides that a Lodge is not properly representing the Theosophical Society, they must inform the Lodge of the specific problems that the Lodge has, and the Lodge has 6 months in which to correct this behavior (It takes 2/3 of the BOD to expel a member; I have VERY strongly recommended to the BOD that it be made AT LEAST as hard to dissolve a Lodge as to expel a member, and recommended that it take unanimity minus one do do so). As nearly as I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong), the major political hotspot is Alice Bailey. Essentially, she seems to have created a Theosophical religion, which is at odds with the other Theosophical religion, the E.S. (this is not a put-down; in the Mahatma letters, it is specifically stated that the TS should have a separate section for those who wish to follow their teachings as a religion). Unfortunately, there are far more people out there who want someone to tell them what the truth is, and to tell them what to do, than people willing to figure it out for themselves. The Alice Bailey books, being much more specific and detailed than even Besant and Leadbeater, appeal far more (but certainly not exclusively) to people who want others to do the thinking for them. There are plenty of people who are willing to do the work in the search for Truth who are also followers of Alice Bailey's works; those of that type whom I know in the TS contribute as much as any who follow their own religious teachings, but are willing to learn and discuss those of others. The problem comes in when you have Alice Bailey fundamentalists, who do not have respect for the beliefs of others, who get visibly offended if someone does not believe that Alice Bailey channeled the Tibetan, or anybody else, and feels that the E.S. is a waste of time. Put that person in conflict with an equally fundamentalist Theosophist, and you have a very untheosophical political divide. In a given Lodge, the problem can be fixed if you have enough people who really believe in the 3 objects, and who accept the fact that there are many correct paths to the Truth, and that the Mahatmas were telling the truth when they said that each person must seek the truth through their own religion. Also required is an UNDERSTANDING of theosophical principles, and realize that ahimsa is an impossible goal, and that you must MINIMIZE harm, even if it requires disturbing the peace every now and then. Finally, people must learn DISCRIMINATION, and learn to tell the difference between what is important and what is not important, and (at the risk of quoting Ann Landers), don't sweat the small stuff. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:00:58 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Keeping things in perspective Yesterday- In the early evening We could not have been in more perfect Harmony. Yin essence; yang essence Swirl and blend all things into One. This morning- I rise lazily to greet the sun behind the haze. One wonders about the misty cling... Discordant notes frustrate the composition. Insistence on explaining The Great Mystery Strikes the stomach; vibrates... Such a thing lends itself not to explanation If it did; it would not be The Great Mystery ***** Truth filters in As on sunlit beams. And drops As a leaf. All Silently proclaiming All; The garden patch, The grassy summer slopes. ***** When spoken to "Love loves." One preserves it. -Art House From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:02:26 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: An idea >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>The letter could also contain the technical aspects of setting up >>communication. It should be well-detailed, serious, and leaves no detail >>unturned. >> >>Any feedback would help, otherwise this idea will just go nowhere. > >Feedback: An idea well worth considering. May I suggest you draft a >proposed letter to the list, and then all subscribers can have their 2 >cents' worth of input etc., etc., until a consensus is reached? > >This was how we set up TI! And TI is still here ... > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Okay. However, I have several requests before I attempt this. 1. I need to know that this effort will get support. So far, there's Alan Bain. Is there anyone else? Two signatures will not be impressive. 2. I need support of people with good contacts in the T.S., and of course, extensive e-mail addresses. 3. I need people who would volunteer to proof-read what I had written. I would prefer to do this privately until the letter is ready to be put out to subscribers for their inputs. I also have several questions: Does anyone know of prominent theosophists who would be supportive of this effort? I will research into the technicality of having a chat session. I'm familiar with AOL's chat line, but not with the web's. If anyone already has good knowledge of this, let me know. I would like to make it technically as easy as possible for the officials to have a chat session. The purpose of this is to increase communication. The letter will contain its mission, an invitation, technical details, and theosophists' support. The main idea is communication and diplomacy. Also, as you can see, my language is practical and direct. I believe that one of the aspects of proper communication is knowing who you are talking to, and align your language to them. For example, your language would be different when you are talking to a child as opposed to talking to someone doing their doctorate. This is not phoniness, this is bringing out different aspects of yourself that can relate to your subject. Being a semi-newbee, I have no idea how I should relate to the officers. That's when having someone proof-reading my writing would help. This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, non-members, ex-members, etc. If you think that this idea is ludicrous, please let me know why. I would appreciate the input. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:00:16 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Doss: >On the other hand, what we see is Internet is breaking down of the walls >that exist between the organizations. Theosophists belonging to all the >organizations and belonging to none, discuss here various issues as >brothers and sisters and siblings. No "editing" No censorship -- totally >open. All this for free courtesy of a few committed open minded >Theosophists. No dues, no fees to be paid. This may be the future for >Theosophy. > >Of course those who are comfortable with a Theosophy "religion" based on >specific "beliefs" (I emphasize because anything based on personal >knowledge is no longer a belief) and don't want to think for themselves and >solve problems themselves will only be comfortable in a "religion" type of >a set up. > >May be time is running out for the formal set up used during last 100 years >and TS organizations turning into publishing houses. Who knows? Time only >can tell. > >mkr If the internet is the future of theosophy, then maybe it is time to move on and see how we can contribute to making the internet medium grow and be beneficial for everyone. I am for openness, but there can also be too much of a morbid focus on something. I did notice that on theos-l, there were few responses to people making serious inquiry into their interests, be it science, art, truth, etc., but tons of responses to past wrongs. I did like the frequent emphasis in that letter on moving on, on not letting negativity hinder their work. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:24:13 -0700 From: "Lorraine Christensen" Subject: Canadian Section >From Lorraine Christensen Lmhem111 wrote: > Canadian Section was excommunicated several years ago, an issue which has been > discussed on theos.talk previously. This is just to clarify matters that prior to the Canadian Section's break with Adyar there were for many, many years two officially recognized (by Adyar) theosophical organizations in Canada: - The Canadian Section, and - The Canadian Federation. At present, I am aware of only one: The Canadian Federation, and it is my understanding that it is on excellent terms with Adyar! Lorraine Christensen henningc@quenet.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:36:37 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: FTP Site Offer A generous and committed Theosophist has offered to provide disk space for storing files which can be FTP'd (ie. downloaded). This site can be used to store new material as well as could be a mirror site where duplicate files from other sites can be stored for retrieval by anyone on the Internet. I would like to get some feedback from anyone interested in uploading/mirroring files as well as any other ideas. If anyone else is willing to provide a FTP site there can be more than one mirror site. Looking to hear from you all. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:39:25 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Canadian Section At 02:24 PM 2/15/1998 -0700, you wrote: >>From Lorraine Christensen > >Lmhem111 wrote: >> Canadian Section was excommunicated several years ago, an issue which >has been >> discussed on theos.talk previously. > >This is just to clarify matters that prior to the Canadian Section's >break with Adyar there were for many, many years two officially >recognized (by Adyar) theosophical organizations in Canada: > >- The Canadian Section, and >- The Canadian Federation. > >At present, I am aware of only one: The Canadian Federation, and it is >my understanding that it is on excellent terms with Adyar! > >Lorraine Christensen >henningc@quenet.com > The Canadian Section, to the best of my knowledge, is alive and well and is independent of Adyar or any other organization. They, I believe are quite active in spreading Theosophy and have an excellent publication - Canadian Theosophist. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:53:51 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Thanks to email correspondents who provided leads and possible sources to answer following questions. I'd appreciate additional assistance from other Judge students. David Green >Did WQ Judge believe he was >in contact with the discarnate >Mme Blavatsky? > >If he did, were the messages from >Blavatsky to Judge coming through >Katherine Tingley? > >Soon after Judge's death, did Mrs >Tingley "channel" the discarnate >Judge for the benefit of Judge's >close associates in New York City? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:53:44 -0500 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re:Differences between TS and NA >I do not know about NA, but some one else may be able to throw some ligh= t. >However, I vaguely recall there were some organizational disputes regarding >TS years ago and it could be that some of the lodges may have moved into= >NA. I am also posting this on theos-l so that if anyone there knows >something they could respond. >mkr >At 06:36 PM 2/14/1998, you wrote: >Dear theosophists, > >The TS Lodge in Croatia where I used to go before ten years became part = of >the organization called New Acropolis. What are the doctrinal and >organizational differences between TS's and NA? What do you think about >this NA organization? Is it stil teosophy, or something different, on yo= ur >opinion. I heard that they are accused for some extreme right political >ideology, but I have no evidence for it yet. > >Sincerely, >______________________________________________________________ > Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. = > Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb = > mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor = >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi, I am quoting from the latest dictionary about sects in Germany from a= Mr. Hans-Otto Wiebus: "Religionen, Sekten, Seelenfanger" (Religions, sects, soul catchers). Folllowing Mr. Wiebus the New Acropolis was founded in 1957 in Buenos Aires from Jorge Angel Livraga (J.A.L., 1930-1991). Today there shall be 150 Centers= in 50 countries with total 50,000 members exist. The first europian branch was founded in= 1967 in = fascist Spain. The NA is to be said to combine theosophical thought with right-winged ones and to have a strong leader system with discipline and order and esoteric= =2E JAL shall have based his doctrines on the Theosophy of Blavatsky. There exists an inner circle which is = organised like a secret society. So far this dictionary entry. = My comment: Perhaps the allegations are true or half-true. When I am reading the entry about Theosophy I don't know wether I should laugh or cry... Sadly no bibliography of JAL is given. Perhaps his books are only in Spanish? Any news about NA are welcome. Best wishes, Frank German Theos. Central Archives From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:09:28 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: what is the New Acropolis? I did a quick search on infoseek and found a web page on New Acropolis: http://www.acropolis.org/hom-a.htm I did not have a chance to look at it. Has anyone been or known any members of this organization? What do they say about it? -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:17:48 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood > From: "Pat Reda" > Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood > Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 1:41 AM > > just out of curiosity. are the members not renewing their memberships or are > they just dying out? > hi - (if this is directed at my prior post re: Charlotte NC.) These are people in their 30's and 40's. All very dedicated to spiritual paths. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:25:06 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood > From: "Pat Reda" > Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood > Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 1:48 AM > > why not ask john to come on this website on a given evening? after all, he is > the pres. and the pres. in his role should consider him/herself as the servant > of the members > People have asked for this repeatedly since 1993. As to date, no one has responded. They (TSA - *anyone*) have refused to even *acknowledge* the invitations. john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:47:40 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Croatian TS & New Acropolis New Acropolis, according to the information on its website, seems to be a vague spin-off of the Theosophical Movement. It has loosely adopted the Three Objectives of the TS, although the last one seems to be very general with no mention of Evolution, Reincarnation and Karma. At one point the website states "New Acropolis embraces and promotes principles of union inspired by such philosophies as Pythagoreanism, Neoplatonism, Theosophy and others, which in their time brought about real progress in civilization." I don't understand why the Croatian TS would want to become absorbed into this organization, even though its ideals are fine and noble. The TS has its own agenda in presenting detailed teachings of the Ageless Wisdom based on the writings of HPB and the Masters. It seems like joining an organization with a very generalized programme is a process of dilution. That's my two cents. Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:54:03 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood In a message dated 98-02-16 09:22:38 EST, you write: << are the members not renewing their memberships or are they just dying out? >> I think both Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:01:01 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: two languages, two "Sections"? Thanks Bart Lidofsky, Lorraine Christensen & MKR for the feedback on TS "excommunications", if they can be called that. I thought the Canadian Federation (French-speaking) and the Canadian Section (English-speaking) was due to a linguistic split. I could be wrong. Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:37:58 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? > From: "Eldon B Tucker" > Subject: what is the New Acropolis? > Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 10:09 PM > > I did a quick search on infoseek and found a web page on > New Acropolis: > > http://www.acropolis.org/hom-a.htm > > I did not have a chance to look at it. Has anyone been or known > any members of this organization? I went there. It is chartered on three Basic Principles which are nearly identical (reworded only) to that of the TS. If they became/are Nazi/fundamentalist... They would have to be in violation of their own First Object. kinda of scary. john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:45:10 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:two languages, two "Sections"? At 10:01 AM 2/16/1998 EST, you wrote: >Thanks Bart Lidofsky, Lorraine Christensen & MKR for the feedback on TS >"excommunications", if they can be called that. I thought the Canadian >Federation (French-speaking) and the Canadian Section (English-speaking) was >due to a linguistic split. I could be wrong. > >Lmhem111 It was definitely *not* due to a linguistic reasons that the excommunication took place. Let me look up some of my old literature to see what the details are. ...mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:26:29 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? At 07:09 PM 2/15/1998 -0800, you wrote: >I did a quick search on infoseek and found a web page on >New Acropolis: > > http://www.acropolis.org/hom-a.htm > >I did not have a chance to look at it. Has anyone been or known >any members of this organization? What do they say about it? > >-- Eldon I visited the site. The following is the Founding Charter. Does it not sound like rewording of TS Objects? Founding Charter I. To unite men and women of all creeds, races and social conditions around an ideal of universal fraternity. II. To awaken a global vision in men and women through the comparative study of Sciences, Religions, Arts and Philosophies. III. To enable men and women to live as part of Nature and to express their true personalities, by developing the capacities of each individual. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:35:15 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Croatian TS & New Acropolis At 09:47 AM 2/16/1998 EST, you wrote: >>> clip <<< >I don't understand why the Croatian TS would want to become absorbed into this >organization, even though its ideals are fine and noble. The TS has its own >agenda in presenting detailed teachings of the Ageless Wisdom based on the >writings of HPB and the Masters. It seems like joining an organization with a >very generalized programme is a process of dilution. > >That's my two cents. > >Lmhem111 You are right. I also wondered why any one want to align with another organization. The answer may lie in the practical lessons in meditation etc. etc. It would be interesting to find out. Also it is quite likely this may be "the" issue which was at the heart of the withdrawal of the charter and cancellation of the membership of some members. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:42:37 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood At 09:25 AM 2/16/1998 -0500, you wrote: >> From: "Pat Reda" >> Subject: Re:Universal Brotherhood >> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 1:48 AM >> >> why not ask john to come on this website on a given evening? after all, >he is >> the pres. and the pres. in his role should consider him/herself as the >servant >> of the members >> > >People have asked for this repeatedly since 1993. >As to date, no one has responded. They (TSA - *anyone*) have refused to >even *acknowledge* the invitations. > >john e. mead Let me add my unique experience. After you set up theos-l series of maillists, I vaguely recalled reading about it in AT. So when I got Internet connection, I sent a e-mail to TSA asking if there was a TSA/Theosophy maillist and if so how to subscribe (I was a novice in those days.) The answer was no. Which is true the answer (like a lawyer would give in a deposition.) However the msg did not volunteer information about theos-l series of maillists. Later it was during a casual conversation with a member across the country that I mentioned my interest and he immediately faxed me a info sheet he picked up when he attended the annual meeting. All to good Karma goes to this helpful TSA member. It looks like they are yet to come to grips with maillists and newsgroups. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:50:02 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re:the Judge-Tingley controversy >I think we have to be careful about painting the psychism issue with too broad of >a brush. HPB did make a distinction between clairvoyance, spiritual clairvoyance >and mediumship. It was the latter that she was against, because the medium does >not have control over the phenomena. Psychometry is not in this category. > Jerry, I agree with you completely on this one. >I think that there is evidence that Tingley did have psychic abilities, but she >since she did not show them off to the membership, recorded instances are few and >far between. Tingley was also a very charismatic speaker and talented at >organizing people together. Whatever Judge saw in her, Tingley's abilities went >far beyond just being a good neighborhood psychic. > I find a fair amount of real mysticism in her writings (which are not very many). Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:11:26 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: An idea Alan: >When we were forming the TI "Statement of Intent" some of the >feedback came via theos-l, and some via personal e-mail. I put out my >original thoughts, and the would-be and existing members told me >where I was wrong, what I had left out, and how the Statement could >be better worded. So I kept reposting the various amended versions >until all those interested were in substantial agreement. > >As is to be expected, not everyone agreed with every detail of every >line, but there was sufficient consensus for mutual agreement, and we >went ahead with that. It may not be too long before we reach the 100 >member mark. Not high compared to "mainline" TS organisations, but >our figures go only up. (One member did quit, but rejoined a month or >two later after sundry correspondence). > >So I repeat my suggestion - send you draft either to list members (non- >concealed members can be found by send the following to >Listproc@vnet.net: > >rev theos-l > >and/or to the list itself. I for one will proofread your effort, and like >others, may well edit it and post the result back to you ... > >Alan (with your face) :o) >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Alright, Alan. I think I should head to the library and find a book on diplomacy for my letter. "Come to my party!" would not do, huh? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:47:49 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re:The Teaching - K. Long >Dear Pathfinder: > >If you have Judge's OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- a short book of about 180 = pages - could >you review the chapters 8, 9, and 10 on Reincarnation. = Link this with Karma (Chapter >11), and, if you desire to understand the = basis for "spiritualism" and "channeling" you can >read with profit = Chapters 5, 12, and especially 1 and 17 wherein he reviews PSYCHIC = >LAWS, PHENOMENA and SPIRITUALISM. > >Judge's work is an epitome of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. It tallies = closely with HPB's >KEY TO THEOSOPHY,=20 > =20 Dallas, I like Judge too, but I have to say that his thoughts on = "psychic laws" are terribly one-sided. I also don't see any real comparison between the SD and his Ocean. I would consider G de Purucker's work an "epitome of the SD" much more so than anything Judge wrote. =20 This is purely my own opinion, of course. But I have read everything Judge wrote, and find it very exoteric and "surfacy" stuff albeit = great for beginners. =20 Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:53:52 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Yugoslavia and Canada - Cancellation of Charter 2 of 2 Here is the editorial that was published in Canadian Theosophist on the issue of termination of the charter of the Canadian Section. mkr ========================= EDITORIAL Earlier in this issue, I have given the story of our Excommunication by Adyar. When I first opened and read their letter, last February, my first reaction was How stupid can they get?" I had spent much of my time in 35 years in business checking with others or answering where others were checking with me as to intent of instructions in various business matters. One always checks and double checks to minimize errors, to retain clients and provide a reliable service. This is a business basic, checking meaning and intent. I referred this and the excommunication fact to a respected Director on my Board, and his reply was that Adyar has done some amazing things and here was another example. The persons last fall who sent the copy of by-law changes to Adyar, had earlier shown both fear of change in another manor, (as well as the by-law changes) and misread in the change proposals an additional intent to break from their most desired Adyar, where there was no such intent at all, an act of gross misinterpretation. By acting on this unwarranted fear, these two persons, ironically enough, caused the break away, done this time by their beloved Adyar, not by the Executive here. So their fear both became and caused a self-fulfilling prophesy. By reacting without checking, the Adyar council "Jumped the gun, ...". as a national president in a neighbouring country said to me. There is nothing wrong with our by-law changes. The revisions were worked on for a year by members of our Board with experience in business matters including by-laws. As was said in the set of explanations sent to all our members prior to the Annual Meeting, the by-law revisions were but to reflect reality; things change over time, so should our by-laws, to reflect our evolution. Looking at the Minutes of Adyar's Dec - Jan. Council meeting, one notes an undertone of complaint that the re-emerging Russian theosophical movement has proceeded without asking permission from Adyar, has members that are not registered with Adyar, nor had Adyar been asked to charter Russian lodges, and the Russians operate on Rules not presented to Adyar for approval. The Russian groups would be wise to stay separate. Rather than be glad that theosophy can function in Russia again, there seems to be that additional compulsion that all must be under the Adyarian wing/thumb (choose one). There we have the authoritarian tendency that has become the bad habit. For the cause of our break, it is easy to see a resentment for some remarks earlier in these columns, coupled with an autocratic tendency. The reasons are easy to see, but I do not intend to give a lesson in psychology here. The personality problems of some on the General Council should not be the problems of national Sections and lodges. We are better off separated. After the excommunication notification was sent to our members, I expected some letters to come in what I would call the spontaneity period, where people pick up pen to write importance with a worldly place or power is an error both of judgement and of focus of attention. Place worshipping is an error to be grown out of, not into, be it the Vatican, Mecca, or Adyar. If Adyar is to control the by-laws of Sections, as they seem to want to do, then their Rules should (but do not) contain a full set of rigid guides for such purposes, if the resultant "acceptable" Sections' by-laws are not to seem to be bent or controlled by whatever is the current prevailing whim of the Adyar Council. The objection to no mention of "parent society" is just such a whim, might not have been the whim of a Council in the past, or in the future with other members. Pouncing on "no parent society" when the Rules have no such requirement is specious, and one looks to other reasons as the real reasons, if reason is to be assumed to have prevailed on Jan. 1, 1992. I would be interested to know how many other Sections and lodges in the world are also deficient in that they did not have "parent society" in their bylaws. Adyar will have to amend their Rules to make this mention in by-laws a must. While they are at it, there is another change needed to correct a long standing error of judgment. I assume our readers are adults. Some years ago a title was chosen for the world head of the E.S., namely, Outer Head, implying that there was an Inner Head, a Master, that the Outer Head was in contact with. This was a most unfortunate choice of titles, because of prior use of these terms. There should have been some checking. Theosophists over the years have been regarded at times with ridicule by the great unwashed general public, so why give them another opportunity? For hundreds of years the toilet on a sailing ship was called The Head" and usually is to this day. The sailors used a convenience at the bow or head of the ship, which was the outer Head; while on large ships and galleons the captain and high officers used a sheltered inner Head. To call the head of the E.S. a ship's toilet is rather disrespectful, to say the least, and this is the interpretation of that title to the many who have nautical knowledge. To call a Master a toilet is an insult. I did not invent these titles, I am just pointing out facts. I would greatly doubt that any Master has ever contacted an Outer Head in this century, so the insult inherent in "Inner Head" would be more theoretical than actual. While we are at changes, the Objects themselves could be changed, to reflect the reality of what goes on in this society, by adding a Fourth Object: To pursue the first three objects of the Society without ever notifying any Official of the member's address change(s). *** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:52:10 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Yugoslavia and Canada - Cancellation of Charter 1 of 2 There were some discussions on the subject. One issue that came up was what happened in Canada. Here is what appeared in the Canadian Theosophist. The editorial that followed is in a following msg. mkr =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >From Canadian Theosophist -Jul-Aug 1992 The Excommunication [The following article is a slightly revised version of a letter sent earlier to all members of the Theosophical Society in Canada, and presented here for the information of our non member readers.] The T.S. in Canada has been excommunicated on Jan. 1, 1992 from Adyar, by Adyar. Whatever ties or links of affiliation we have had with Adyar have now been completely severed. Adyar claims that we did the "disassociating", but it must be clearly understood from the outset, and which will be shown hereunder, that Adyar did this excommunication or disassociating, and from the beginning, last fall (1991 ) did nothing else with respect to us but to accomplish the breaking of all ties with us, and, to date of preparing this for publication late May, has done nothing but maintain the break. I was not informed of the break until Feb. 12, 92, in a very short letter from the International Secretary, Mr. Hugh Gray. I have had nothing further directly from Adyar since. I will now give the events which led up to this affair. At the last annual meeting of our members, in September 1991, we amended our by-laws as per a notice sent to all members in August, which also had explanations for the changes. The amendments were passed at the meeting, with no problem. The next legal step for me was to submit these changes to the Canadian Government for approval. Since we are a federally chartered corporation, we are subject to the Canada Corporations Act. The government has the last say in all matters. Sometime in the fall, a Western E.S. leader sent a copy of the by-law changes to Adyar, exactly as I predicted would be done. This person in the past, regarded another change our Board had proposed as being a step to break with Adyar, which was completely illogical, and never thought of or contemplated by our Board. One can assume that a similar fear was operative last fall. No break with Adyar was contemplated at any time by our Board, in the year that it took to work on the by-law changes, nor were any breaks suggested in the by-law changes, and as has been stated publicly, a break with Adyar cannot be done by us through those by-law changes, it is entirely the wrong method,=97 but Adyar can and did break from us, with one of the by-law changes as the excuse. I have no doubt but that a letter accompanied those by-law changes on their trip to Adyar, and can safely surmise that some alarm was expressed. Kindly note that Adyar did not write to me upon getting those things from our western E.S. leader, to ask for details, or clarification, or if the western E.S. leader was mistaken as to our intent. I repeat: to this day, late May, as I rewrite this, I have had nothing directly from Adyar except the brief letter received mid Feb. that told us that the break was in effect. I did not send a copy of the by-law changes to Adyar last fall for several reasons: 1. We are not required to do so by law; 2. Adyar has no say whatsoever in the promulgation or approval of our by-laws as a Canadian Corporation; and to this end, but ignored so far by Adyar, their Rules make an allowance where the laws of another country should cause an exception to be made to the application of their Rules. 3. I would never send a copy of the by-laws as passed by our annual meeting to Adyar, or anywhere, until the Canadian Government had approved them. Until the Canadian Government passes judgment, the bylaws amendment as passed by our members is but a memorandum of intent to change. I received the Government's approval (except for a minor point) on the same day I received the notice of excommunication from Adyar, Feb. 12,1992. 4. If there is autonomy of Sections, as is claimed, there is no need to send copies of by-laws, and any such requirement in Adyar's Rules should be deleted as being contradictory to autonomy. Mrs. Burnier, in an indirect letter, claims that she could not and would not act on our situation until the General Council met in late Dec. 1991. Fine, but she or co-workers should still have written to me for clarification of intent. Again, the Feb. letter was the only one ever received. Much later, writing through an intermediary, Mrs. B. states that we failed to send a copy of the by-law changes, and tends to say that this might be a forgivable fault, as long as the document is amended to her (or her Council's) liking. Earlier, in February, I wrote to Hugh Gray stating what is largely covered in the previous paragraph, above, to wit: Adyar does not have any legal say in our by-laws. Conveniently overlooked by Adyar is the fact that they did get a copy of the by-law changes, as I knew they would, in a manner that saved us the postage. But, as I have pointed out earlier here, such a copy did not yet have the approval of the Can. Government, and therefore had no validity then. On getting the by-law changes last fall, the Adyar vice president, who had the task of examining all by-laws of all sections, spotted where we had deleted the phrase "parent society" and this deleting was found objectionable by Adyar. The "parent society" mention was deleted for reasons given to all our Canadian members last August in the by-law change notice. I reprint the (August) reason here: "Old wording creates a conflict position with Corporations Act, as deleted word suggests another body owning controlling interest, such as a majority of shares, which is not the case. Only members shall have an interest in this corporation which is without shareholders. This change in no way affects our affiliation with any other T.S. organization." (I should have added then, "unless the other organizations decide to change our affiliation"). The "parent society" was left out and should remain out for a number of other reasons: 1. It is not required to be in by-laws by Adyar's Rules. No doubt they will amend this oversight in their inevitable Rules changes for this year. 2. It is not required by Canadian law. 3. There is no such thing as a, or the, "parent society" and for this we have the authority of H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q. Judge, whose statements will be quoted below. 4. The words "parent society" should never have been, and need not have been, put in the by-laws in the first place, 17 years ago. Had this been left out, nothing in that respect could have been noticed last fall, and this present situation would not have come about.=20 5. There is supposed to be autonomy of lodges and Sections. This is stated by Blavatsky and Besant. One finds it also in various T.S. magazines, and if not hypocrisy, should therefore be upheld without exceptions by Adyar. Recent history shows that it has not been upheld. Blavatsky said "There is no longer a "Parent Society"; it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical Societies, all autonomous ..." (H.P.B. C.W. Vol. Xl, p. 381). Wm. Q. Judge, when asked about "Parent Theosophical Society, and ... the meaning of the term, and to what is it applied?" answered: "At present there is no meaning in the name, and its use a source of error; it should never have been used. If there is in existence a"Parent Society", then it is the Aryan [Theosophical Society] because its charter members are the only ones left here of the first branch ever formed, while Mme. Blavatsky and Col. Olcott are the founders of this branch, which became the Aryan after their departure. But as the whole Society is composed of its branches and unattached members, and as each person who joins - either through a Branch or at large - thereby becomes a member of the whole Society, there can be no "parent Society." It is advisable that this term be discarded altogether, as it has no reason for its existence, and no meaning in its use." (From a reprint in "Echoes of the Orients", The Writings of William Q. Judge, Vol. II, p.440.) Annie Besant also stated that "A National Society, or Section is autonomous, .... =20 Theosophy came to Canada via A.E.S. Smythe 101 years ago. Smythe emigrated to Canada from Ireland, and on the boat he met W.Q. Judge, who convinced him of the merits of Theosophy. Our first charter came via Judge, as head of the American Section then. Judge split with Besant and aligned elsewhere. Besides what H.P.B. and Judge had to say about "parent society". there is another problem, and valid reason for not using this phrase: if there were a "parent society" for the T.S. in Canada, then is it the Aryan T.S. (which no longer exists) or the theosophical organization that Judge shifted to after his split, or the present T.S. in America, (which group took over from Judge, and from which the T.S. in Canada derived in 1919)? One has only one real parent (or in biology, two). A foster parent is not a real parent. At best, Adyar could be only a foster parent. We in Canada have always leaned to H.P.B. for an authority, so there is no parent society and therefore no foster parent. =20 A.E.S. Smythe always held, as with Judge, his mentor, that a Section and a lodge was autonomous with a loose affiliation with other like theosophical groups, and all the Canadian General Secretaries have always been given this rule of Smythe's, and upheld it, often to the chagrin of those in far places over the past 101 years, and with this tradition, I have found no reason to take a different path, and in this current affair, I have but followed Smythe's footsteps. =20 When I received the letter, Feb. 1 12th that noted our excommunication, I immediately sent off a letter of explanation of our actions, said that there was never any intent by our Board via the by-law changes to break from Adyar, suggested that they had acted rashly on the fear mongering information from their E.S. Canadian informant, I acknowledged that the break was in place, at Adyar's doing, and invited/awaited a reply, which never came. I wanted to allow them the 24 days for mail each way plus some time to further discuss this matter among themselves, before breaking the news to our members. I restate that Adyar has done nothing other than to make this break from us, commencing last fall, and to maintain it. They will claim otherwise, when it appears unflattering to appear to have done what they did. They have also been apprised of H.P.B.'s stand on "parent society". =20 I have received an inkling, indirectly, by a copy of a letter from Mrs. Bumier to an intermediary, probably for my consumption. The gist of this is that if we were to apply on bended knee, and subjugate our rights to Adyar's desires for our by-law content, then they might reconsider mending the break. Contractual subservience too, would be required, to get around the problems inherent in our being a corporation. These previous sentences have been reinforced again, by another letter from "over there" which was again for my benefit, and which the required subservience in by-laws and any other matters deemed necessary, was repeated as a prerequisite before any rejoining could take place. =20 I heard rumours that Adyar had asked or instructed that our advertisement in "The Quest" magazine be stopped. So much for rumours. Within two days of hearing of this, (and five days after getting the excommunication letter from Adyar), I had a phone call from the company that looks after advertising for various magazines, including "The Quest". He stated as follows, "I have been requested to advise you by "The Quest" magazine, that on orders from headquarters in India, the T.S. in America. cannot further permit your ad to appear in "The Quest" magazine". (*The T.S. in America owns and publishes that magazine.) =20 I have obtained the name of the western E.S. leader who "went snitching to mama". As I knew who this was before, from prediction, this was but a confirmation. I reamed that the Canadian Federation T.S. was advising some lodges of the excommunication and suggesting that these lodges join up with the Federation. I then received a copy of a letter being sent out by the Federation, which turns out to be written by Radha Bumier to Mr. H. Jackson. The letter adds "... It is the wish of the General Council to encourage the growth of the Canadian Federation in every way." So we are out, there was never anything done "over there" but to put us out and keep us out. This letter was dated Feb. 24, 1992. Adyar has time to write to the Federation, fax to Wheaton, and no doubt write to other loyal E.S. dominated sections, but has no time or courtesy to reply to my letter of Feb. 15, 92. =20 Since they want us out, why should we go against Adyar's wishes? Thus I say, out we are, and out we should stay. We will not be alone in this, as others have separated, or been separated in the past, the next last to us was Denmark. =20 I have always held as despicable the gentle art of shunning as practiced by certain "Christian" sects when one or more of their fold leaves. There have been fears expressed to me, and already signs that this could or is happening against the members of the T.S. in Canada. If it does, I say that it is a good thing, because it indicates the level of development of the person doing the shunning, as well of that of who orders the shunning, so it would be no loss to us by losing any former contact with a shunner. THE IMPLICATIONS AND FUTURE PATH =20 Each member should make up his or her mind as to whether they want to stay with this now independent theosophical society, the T.S. in Canada, or if the umbilical cord with Adyar is deemed essential, as it might be for all E.S. members, to attach themselves with the Federation forthwith, (or form a 3rd group, if the Federation is not acceptable). I could never understand why the T.S. in Canada did not themselves make a break years ago, such as in the '20's when the Federation split-off was done. We have historically always "been a thorn in the side of Adyar", critical when wrong or folly appeared. A.E.S. Smythe in the twenties was highly critical of distortions of the original teachings being put into the E.S. by the Leadbeater-Besant duo, and the "Christ is coming through Krishnamurti" farce. A number of members disagreed with Smythe, so the Canadian Federation was formed, to cater to the needs of the E.S., who disagreed with Smythe et. al. =20 Now we have the opportunity, handed to us on a platter, of having two organizations to cater to the two basic desires: the T.S. in Canada, H.P.B. and Judge based in origins and fairly steadily upheld over the years; and the Federation, E.S. based with Adyar and Outer Head linkage and obedience to E.S. Oath. Make a choice, and let us all go onwards in our preferred ways. There is little compatibility, if any, with what the E.S. now stands for, and basic theosophy and the desire of many for autonomy. =20 We have been separated from Adyar since Jan. 1st, 1992. I have noticed nothing different in our operations nor in my life, theosophical or otherwise prior to learning of the excommunication on Feb. 12th, nor since. This article brings the information to many of you for the first time. Has your life been different since Jan. 1, 1992? I think not. I have been asked many times, going back years, What is the benefit, if any, of being attached to Adyar? I have never been able to answer this - that is, the "Benefit" part. There is none. Yet some, especially the E.S. members, feel that there is, and that is their privilege=97just do not push this at those who think otherwise. Now we have a choice: the independent group or the Adyar linked group. This choice I think, now, is fair and just, and should settle the long standing fuss with the E.S. based Federation plus the E.S. members in our midst, and those of us who disliked what crept into the E.S. (see "The Elder Brother" by G. Tillett) and have always stood aloof and against that E.S. Then there are the very many of our members who have little or no knowledge that Adyar exists, and know nothing of the E.S. and its history. That group will, I hope, remain as our members. (The Tillett book is part of our Home Study Course, and it can be purchased from our Edmonton Lodge, and from a bookseller in California.) =20 The choice is to remain in a democratic autonomous society, or go to a Adyarian linked society under their current autocratic rule. For us to return, I remind you, bended knee is required, surrender of right to make autonomous decisions as to our by-laws etc., and contractural subservience to Adyar. =20 I stated to our Board meeting last September, that I would never instigate a break with Adyar, and I added that if any such break were to occur, it probably would be started by Adyar, who had much more experience in this sort of thing, such as the recent Denmark Affair. How right I was! *** =20 I do hope that when this rite of excommunication was done, that they used correct and proper procedure, with:=20 Ring the bell Close the Book Out the candle. [* Not necessarily in that order.]=20 --- S.T. [Stan L. Treolar, General Secretary] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:45:17 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Yugoslavia, Canada, Denmark etc. It appears that there were also problems with TS in Greece, Italy, and Ireland. Anyone has any info about these countries and any other country where TS had problems similar to that in Yugoslavia, Canada, Denmark? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:01:15 -0600 From: "Govert Schuller Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? >> I did a quick search on infoseek and found a web page on >> New Acropolis: >> >> http://www.acropolis.org/hom-a.htm >> >> I did not have a chance to look at it. Has anyone been or known >> any members of this organization? > >I went there. It is chartered on three Basic Principles which are >nearly identical (reworded only) to that of the TS. > >If they became/are Nazi/fundamentalist... They would have to be in >violation of their own First Object. kinda of scary. > >john e. mead > I went there too and found a very well done site with many interesting items, most of which are in either the Spanish, French or Portuguese language. I did find an English homage to HPB and a different French article titled 'HPB, a necessary rehabilitation,' which mentions Harrison's critique of the Hodgson Report. I also found two French articles taking position against racism. In one I found the phrase "the unity of the [human] species destroys all racist prejudice." There was also a thoughtful article about the metaphysical status of womanhood with an esoteric critique of feminism. This to show that I did not find anything Nazi/fundamentalist about this site. Looking at its programs and offered literature I have to conclude that the site seems to be the product of a group of people with a genuine theosophical mindset. Having said that I can indeed imagine an expelled lodge finding refuge in this organization. If anybody has hard evidence that this organization is different than what it seems to be on its website I like to hear from him. Govert From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:21:32 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Hans-Otto on Theosophy and Anthroposophy ?? >Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:53:44 -0500 >rom: Frank Reitemeyer >o: "INTERNET:theos-l@vnet.net" >c: Theos-Talk >Subject: Re:Differences between TS and NA >Hi, I am quoting from the latest dictionary about sects in Germany from a >Mr. Hans-Otto >Wiebus: "Religionen, Sekten, Seelenfanger" (Religions, sects, soul >catchers). > >Folllowing Mr. Wiebus the New Acropolis was founded in 1957 in Buenos Aires > >My comment: Perhaps the allegations are true or half-true. When I am >reading the entry >about Theosophy I don't know wether I should laugh or cry... Sadly no >bibliography of JAL >is given. Perhaps his books are only in Spanish? my curiosity is up now.. what does Hans-Otto have in his dictionary about Theosophy? also ... maybe more important would be what he has on anthroposophy and Steiner?? john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:23:30 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re: An idea > From: "John R Crocker" > Subject: Re: An idea > Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 4:26 PM > > >> This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive > >> support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, > >> non-members, ex-members, etc. > > I would say that the key to any involvement of the TSA on the Internet > >involves getting cooperation from 4 people, in the following order: John > Algeo, > >Ruben Cabigting, Eldon Tucker or me, and Joan MacDougal. > so what have Ruben, or John, or Joan to say on the matter? I guess I'm asking (on behalf of Theos-L) for Eldon and Bart to ask them. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:02:36 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: The Articles of Association DYNASTIES have long been clung to by those who are in place: being central to the power, the stranglehold of an empire. An empire may be a sovereignty, in respect to geographical regions; or more precisely assumed lordship over a group of people. And there are many who have been positioned as leader who from past experience, carry on as such, trying to re-establish more of the same pecking order, with them as chief pecker. And if it cannot be achieved through the more simple forms of power endorsed - respectfully money - other means will be found in order to cajole a community to subservience. It is novel to find that there are folk who seek authority, and come to such unquestioningly, when won over. Often there are mutual ideals bandied about here and there: some pleasing enticements, some promise of personal gain. And usually the leader of such a group, whether it be in local council, or local church, submits them to the whims of their beloved, even if degradation is part of the privy to become members. It is uncomfortable to cite these distinctions, but necessary in the consideration of equality, equality in its true perspective. Whilst some individuals are certainly capable of bearing far more than others, and by 'heading up' a particular group, do serve that group with talents and expertise required; it is also a temptation for them to misinterpret their status and their standing, and also that the others may do the same. Granted, there is always a Queen bee, and that Queen bee is distinguishably separate and different. But the Queen bee does not need to fall upon artificial means for establishing her role, and presume what she is not. She is what she is because of what she does, and this is apparent. In the case of men who assume the roles of leadership, many are appointed and continually overstate their position with irrelevant acts that pertain more to their standing, than their actual workeffort. Badges and uniforms may have practical usage, but moreover are statements and license for a certain superiority assumed. It is quite a bizarre quirk that men in these times, still feel the need for ego-identification in this way. -Mr.B.Hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:20:28 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: An idea At 04:26 PM 2/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >The next election should be very interesting - there is widespread and >growing sentiment throughout the TS that the Emporers and Empresses ... >suddenly appear to have no clothes. -JRC > Some time ago, there was a discussion among some members that it may be a good idea to have the CPA firm handle all the mailouts of ballots and receipt and tallying of ballots just like they do in Oscar and other awards. I am sure the CPA firm which is doing the audits of TSA would be glad to provide this service and should be good to the organization in the long run. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:53:35 -0700 From: "Lorraine Christensen" Subject: Re:two languages, two "Sections"? >From Lorraine Christensen Lmhem111 wrote: > Thanks Bart Lidofsky, Lorraine Christensen & MKR for the feedback on TS > "excommunications", if they can be called that. I thought the Canadian > Federation (French-speaking) and the Canadian Section (English-speaking) was > due to a linguistic split. I could be wrong. Lmhem111, just to set the record straight, there has never been a linguistic split re: theosophy in Canada. The Canadian Section (named the Theosophical Society in Canada) internally suffered further breaks after its "excommunication" with Adyar. What we now have in Canada are a number of independent societies such as the Victoria T. S. in British Columbia, the Edmonton T. S. and the Calgary T. S. in Alberta and at least two, possibly three, ULT lodges in Ontario. These are in addition to the Canadian Federation and the former Canadian Section. I have personally witnessed much friendly rapport and collaboration taking place between the various TS groups in Canada. Lots of fellow theosophists of whatever stripe or slant are seriously working for brotherhood. Cordially yours, Lorraine Christensen henningc@quenet.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:08:54 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE Mon. Feb 16 '98 Dear Bruce: Yours of the 13th concerning my question about "I" - the "self" that observes and notices all changes Ecstasy Webster - being outside of "ones' self -- out of reason or self-control -- over- mastering feeling -- In mysticism: prophetic or poetic trance Apparently there are two levels/stages: Controlled and uncontrolled Hence in theosophical psychology (as I read it) you have the condition of the Adept who controls and of the medium (or channeler) who is passive and is controlled by some external "influence" As I understand it for an Adept to contact his "Divine Inner Self" [ HIGHER SELF ] he has to so purify his personal [ Lower ] Self that it can become transparent to the "divine" and the "spiritual." Hence, the study of and practice of morals on the thesis that we are at root immortals and that Karma operates incessantly and our 'motives' make or break or progress to that point of divine or spiritual contact. To me it seems that the personal mind (my self here, awake in this body, now) has to make itself as pure as possible so that it can unerringly contact by will-power, its own HIGHER SELF. I found some very suggestive notes on this in HPB's SD. [ see SD II 79-80, 109-110, 318fn, I 260 bottom, ] It thus seems to me that the inclination of the/my embodied, personal mind/self is towards a selfishness that desires to "protect" the status quo to which it is accustomed. Whereas, the impersonal mind/Self is actively encouraging that same lower self (its mirror in matter) to transcend the limited personal for the boundless spheres of knowledge and life which is represented to us as the divine and "spiritual." I don't think I am adding much more to what you said, but perhaps I am wring in understanding you. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:09:36 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate ... Feb 16th '98 Channeling like mediumship, trance, etc... are all psychic phenomena. HPB and Olcott did not "believe" in them they knew them to be a fact and had seen ample evidence of their operation. HPB was an Adept and controlled all psychic phenomena. She was not a medium. Olcott was her pupil from 1873 onwards. He was placed in charge of the T S at its founding as its President for life. She was the "Messenger," the writer, the amanuensis of the Adepts who had something to offer to humanity at the cycle when she came to work. The evidence is plain for those who wish to read and study. We have ISIS UNVEILED, which gathers together most of the threads scattered as evidence through classical and modern literature of psychic phenomena, and the laws behind those occurrences are discussed. HPB's articles ( collected by several publishers in various volumes ) provide the connecting threads of thought and discussion that lead to the writing and publishing, 11 years later, of THE SECRET DOCTRINE -- where the history of the events of evolution of our Earth and of Mankind are delineated from Adept records of their actual observations. the basis for this work are two series of stanzas taken from THE BOOK OF DZYAN (Wisdom and History) -- a Book which is maintained by the Adept Brotherhood. Also published at that time are THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY -- a review in question and answer form of Theosophy and its main doctrines covering Reincarnation, Karma, the Immortality of Man, and the process by which one can become Wise. The VOICE OF THE SILENCE was written from the stanzas of Dzyan (wisdom) for the advice and training of "Lanoos" - disciples who desired to find and use the "Wisdom of the Ages." In addition is the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY in which HPB had begun to accumulate information concerning the many unusual and strange terms used in her writing which are drawn from ancient and foreign sources. OLD DIARY LEAVES by Olcott narrates ( and in some case entirely from his memory), events that occurred during the formation and the work of the T S. All these books and/or articles are now available in verbatim or photographic reproductions from their original printing or magazine sources. More information is available if desired Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:30:42 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Dallas writes; Feb 16 1998 Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley As far as I have been able to find out from such letters or statements made by contemporaries of Mr. Judge and Mrs.. Tingley there was no "channeling" involved between those two persons. Mr. Judge was apparently in direct contact with the Masters, and we may presume (without corroboration) that disincarnate "HPB" would continue to be in 'contact' with him on matters that related to Theosophical duties and work. We all need to realize that the factors which distinguish pre-eminently HPB and WQJ are impersonality and a vast love for humanity and an intense desire to be of service to all those who came in contact with them. They did not 'dominate," or 'demand' anything. They had information of the highest value to offer -- which they did unstintingly. In fact one can safely say that they spent their last energies in completing as much of that task as they could, without any hope of reward or recognition. We, their students and devotees of Theosophy, are the benefited. How, and to what extent we study, so as to KNOW, and how and when we devote as much time as we decide on to work to keep it alive, and promulgate it, is our individual responsibility and chosen duty. To gather a view of Mr. Judge's work it is good to read through the volumes of THE PATH. To understand Mr. Judge's view of Theosophy one should be familiar with his articles, and also with THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, the EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY, and ECHOES FROM THE ORIENT. There is no hiatus or diversion to be found between Mr. Judge's exposition of Theosophy and the Theosophy which HPB taught. Mr. Judge always deferred to her as the "Messenger" from the Great Lodge of Adepts [ see ISIS II p. 98 (bottom to p. 105 -- to gauge the scope of that work and effort ]. If one desires to read about the way in which his companions in Theosophical work thought of him and his integrity, you will find included as a part of LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME (ULT Edition, Theosophy Company, 245 W 33rd St., Los Angeles, 90007, Ca.) biographical notes, portions of letters from HPB, and Eulogies written by those companions after his death and printed in PATH. Much more material has been reprinted in early issues of THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM. As far as I know Mr. Judge contacted Mrs. Tingley in the last 3 years of his life and held high hopes for her success as a student. Her life and work after his death shows how this was achieved and each one has to judge for themselves on such matters. I think this is a fair assessment of the situation. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:20:50 -0800 From: "Wes Amerman" Subject: Re:the Judge-Tingley controversy --------------E425C1C0A8E3A31DC06F68D1 Lmhem111@aol.com wrote: > There was a lot of controversy about the relationship between Judge and Madame > Tingley, all having to do with claims of succession. In THE THEOSOPHICAL > MOVEMENT, it says Judge "recognized her true occult position several years > before his death and approved her activities as a psychometer". (p. 268) I > would like to know abou this myself. Very curious ! Did he just accept willy- > nilly her psychic messages from wherever? > Dear Lmhem111, You are right that a controversy existed about "claims of succession" following the death of William Q. Judge. However, your quote from "The Theosophical Movement" is not complete and is taken out of context. Your questions may be answered once it is seen that the phrase quoted is the conclusion reached by E. T. Hargrove in a circular written by Hargrove, in which "Hargrove alleges that Mr. Judge had recognized [Tingley's] 'true occult position' several years before his death and approved of her activities as a 'psychometer.'" This is an important distinction between what Mr. Judge actually thought and wrote and what E. T. Hargrove alleged that Judge had done. Mr. Hargrove may or may not have been in a position to report accurately on Mr. Judge's views. My reading of Mr. Judge's writings and his history as contained in "The Theosophical Movement" is that Judge did not "just accept willy-nilly" anyone's psychic messages, but did his own thinking on this as on other matters. Does anyone know upon what E. T. Hargrove based his statements? Best Regards, Wes Amerman From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:48:41 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: Re:The Articles of Association It is necessary for men to be able to be comfortable in almost any attire and greet others in like manner. There are stories which tell of this: stories of beggar-like men, or old wise women; who, at the roadside are met by an unsuspecting soldier. Stories of the 'Frog Prince', and also 'Cinderella' - all which speak to us of first impressions and soul impressions, pertaining to judgments which are more relevant. Costumes are insidious - they represent very little indeed. It is understandable, commendable for that matter, that one should assume a neat and tidy appearance, or even embellish one's self with a flair of individuality. To wish to appear to 'look good' is either one step towards self-betterment, or two steps towards the deceit of conceit. However, that which is worn not for the sake of the individual and their harmony, but rather as a statement of pomposity and stature, is, at best, silly. Replication within a group, is viewed as respect to that group; and symbolic of the tenuous fibres which cross-link each member throughout. Followed by certain customs ordained, and patterns of behaviour acceptable to the leader, and the people in the group. And to any outsider who may happen upon such a group (be it Bowling Club or Masonic Lodge) one immediately finds uncomfortable the social statutes that pertain to participation. And it is not the theme, or the spirit of the group which is so off-putting, but rather all the accessories that accompany the purpose. If one views any club or group of people, who have gathered with mutual interest in a particular domain, one will find that usually the organisational demand and the periphery conduct, has consumed most of the time given to that group - with uneven proportions. For example: The Bowling Club - Many folk gather (or so they say) for the love of the game, in this instance, bowling. And they love also the uniforms, the badges, and the trophies, and the speeches and the afternoon tea, along with the afternoon gossip. And then there are meetings of designating positions; for there are those required to organise, and those who must organise the organisers. And secretaries to the organisers of the organisers, and badges to be bought by someone for the echelon, arguments as to presidencies, Christmas parties, and tournaments. None of which relate to the actual playing of the game; and in reality, the participants of which, have a great interest in social politics with a little bowling recreation on the side. And so most suitably, one could call the group (of a particular suburb or town), 'The White Faction of Social Discourse and Discovery' or perhaps, 'The Lonely Hearts Club'. When viewing a club, one may call a spade a spade. Look to the heart of the club, and find the diamond within. And then decide. -B.Hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:45:22 -0800 From: "Mark Kusek" Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE How about the idea that "you" are a "lattice-work" of limiting personal energy, superimposed upon the "Nothing that is Everything?" - or is that too obtuse? Tao Tai Chi Tao, The Wine Drunk Taoist. ;) (S) ------------------------ Naturally, the elephant wanders ... first this way, then that. ------------------------ "John Algeo is only a Maya, or ... do we forget this?" -- Aum Tao Tai Chi Tao Aum ------------------------- Bodhicitta smacks you upside the head! ------------------------- _ _ _ _ _ _ / _ >o< _ - - _ _ \ _ _|_ _ | | | | | | | | | | | | ____| |____ (HOLY SHIT!, The Sacred Fart!) Keyword: Response - ability! ______________________ Sorry John, If you can laugh with me, then we are brothers. If you can't ... then go back to square one. (Either way, write a poem ... ) -- Aum Tao Tai Chi Tao AUM _______________________ Irreverently quoting (Sorry, Dallas, ;-( ): Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > As I understand it, for an Adept to contact his "Divine Inner > Self" [ HIGHER SELF ] he has to so purify his personal [ Lower ] > Self that it can become transparent to the "divine" and the > "spiritual." Hence, the study of and practice of morals on the > thesis that we are at root immortals and that Karma operates > incessantly and our 'motives' make or break or progress to that > point of divine or spiritual contact. > > To me it seems that the personal mind (my self here, awake in > this body, now) has to make itself as pure as possible so that it > can unerringly contact by will-power, its own > HIGHER SELF. I found some very suggestive notes on this in HPB's > SD. > [ see SD II 79-80, 109-110, 318fn, I 260 bottom, ] "Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttt!" > It thus seems to me that the inclination of the/my embodied, > personal mind/self is towards a selfishness that desires to > "protect" the status quo to which it is accustomed. > > Whereas, the impersonal mind/Self is actively encouraging that > same lower self (its mirror in matter) to transcend the limited > personal for the boundless spheres of knowledge and life which is > represented to us as the divine and "spiritual." > > I don't think I am adding much more to what you said, but perhaps > I am wrong in understanding you. Acknowledging that the posture of dependance ... unnecessarily shackles one, I AM -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:51:36 GMT From: "Kazimir Majorinc" Subject: Re:Croatian TS & New Acropolis In my last letter it was mistake about conference in Germany.=20 Here it is comnplere citation from http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm#newac1 New Acropolis The occult organization New Acropolis has been accused in various countries of ties to the extreme Right. The address of the publisher of the German language brochure Neue Akropolis. Sekte mit braunen Flecken is: Arbeitskreis gegen die Neue Akropolis/B=FCndni= s "Keinen Fussbreit den Faschisten", c/o Schwarzmarkt, Kleiner Sch=E4ferkamp= 46, 20357 Hamburg, Germany. One copy costs DM 4+1.50 postage; several copies are comparatively cheaper. Also on New Acropolis: the book Las Sectas, Trampa y Enga=F1o (in Spanish)= by Ramiro Pinto Ca=F1on and Alberto Morala de la Viuda (Le=F3n: Colectivo de afectados, 1994); especially pp. 26-71. Ramiro Pinto Ca=F1on is a Spanish ex-New Acropolis member who thought he joined a cultural organization. He also wrote Contra lo irracional (Prevenci=F3n ante las Sectas y lo demas); and Las Sectas al Descubierto (Madrid: CCS, 1998).=20 On Wednesday 6 August 1997, it turned out that a representative of New Acropolis was not welcome at the CESNUR congress on religious movements, at the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam in The Netherlands, 7-9 August 1997. At an earlier stage, when her identity was unknown, she had been accepted as a speaker at the congress.=20 --------------------------------- There are interesting links on same page, but I do not know German or Spanish language. ______________________________________________________________ Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. =20 Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb =20 mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor=20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:44:29 GMT From: "Kazimir Majorinc" Subject: Re:Croatian TS & New Acropolis I published article about NA in Phylosophical Investigations, journal of the Croatian Phylosophical Society, academical one, before 7-8 years. Article covers public teachings of NA. They teach about Socrat, Platon, Lao Tse, HPB, Voice of Silence, Bhagavad Gita, king Arthur, old American cultures etc. It seems that Giordano Bruno is somehow essential person for them. They do not like Leadbeater. From my point of view, they catch for unimportant points of the buddhism and other teachings (like the most of new west sincretism). They are trying to 'modify old wisdom for contemporary west man'. They smoke, eat meat, etc, and it seems that they do not meditate or make similar exercises, at least it is not the part of their public teaching. In Croatian non-religious press, there are the informations that organization NA is trying to take over theosophical lodges, on the manner that some secret members of NA became members of the TS Lodge, work there, trying to make influence and in good moment join the lodge to NA, with members and oher properties. This should be the way how this organization spread. So, if it is the true, it is the answer on question why some theosophists want to join such organization. I'm sure that Andrija Joncic, the president of the lodge Phoenix from Zagreb was the member of the NA and worked on joining to NA far before their official joining to the NA. This lodge was old, but majority of all members of the lodge in the moment of voting was new ones, so they could vote anything. (Digression: i know from my personal experience that members of the Moon's sects use similar tactics, at least in Croatia.) I think that there was some official warning from Adyar TS about NA, titled 'New Acropolis, good imitation of TS but danger trap' or something like that. Those of you who are members of TS should know better. NA is accused in press for extreme right ideology, even for glorifying german nacist leader A. Hitler. I must said that I did not seen such things between members of NA, but there are also claims about inner circle inside NA and that outer circle do not know basics ideas. It is quite possible. The members of New Acropolis was recently expelled from some inter religion conference in Germany, (search Deja News -> New Acropolis ). NA also produce large number of different copies of ancient sculptures with some symbolical or esotherical meanings, which are really nice. Nevertheless about ideology. I have their Horus's eye in my office, looking at me this moment. Conclusion It seems that it may be reasonable for theosophists to pay attention on this organization, both from historical and practical reasons. ______________________________________________________________ Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:18:34 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: One more idea Here is one more idea to encourage the TSA National President and members of the Board of Directors to get actively involved in the Theosophy maillists and Newsgroup so that Thesophy and Humanity can be served. One or more of us could draft a letter focusing on the immense opportunity that these channels are providing for communication with members and others interested in Theosophy. Also should be addressed is the issue of bringing them up to speed what maillists and newsgroup are and how they function and how they have worldwide coverage at no cost to the person participating in them. It is very difficult for anyone to visualize the maillists and newsgroups until and unless one gets involved in person and even then it takes time to learn how to best use these free resources. I am speaking from personal knowledge. In spite of my long involvement in computers, until I got myself Internet connection and started participating in the maillists and newsgroups, I did not get a first hand appreciation of the immense power and potential of these tools. Once the draft letter is finalized, it can be sent to the National President and each member of the Board of Directors with a request to the National President to do two things. (1) Include it in the Agenda of the upcoming meeting of the Board of Directors and (2) Suggest that in the next annual meeting to have a town hall meeting type of discussion on the Internet and maillists and newsgroups and how they can be used as communication tools. When the above letter is sent, I recommend that it be sent to the National President by First Class Mail, e-mail and Fax. The reason for sending it through multiple channels is to make sure that the communication positively and quickly reaches him. Also after a couple of days, a followup fax is advisable to inform that if the document has not reached asking to be contacted so that the document can be re-faxed. As for the rest of the members of the Board of Directors, the document should also concurrently be sent by First Class Mail. This speeds up communication and allows time for the Board members to be aware of the issues and think it over a period of time before the actual Board meeting takes place. The multiple modes of communication recommended above, I have found to be fool proof over a period of time in almost everyone of my communications with the National President and that is why I am recommending it. I believe that on very important matters such as the one we are considering we should not take any chances of the letters being lost in transit, misplaced etc. My 0.02. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:31:20 -0600 From: "Govert Schuller Subject: Re:Croatian TS & New Acropolis >From: "Kazimir Majorinc" >Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 5:20 AM >Subject: Re:Croatian TS & New Acropolis In my last letter it was mistake about conference in Germany. Here it is comnplere citation from http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm#newac1 Simpos is a site run by a Dutch foundation that keeps tabs on certain social and occult tendencies within society. Unfortunately they seem to be acting from a left wing hard core skeptical world view, by which almost all esoteric organizations like theosophy and anthroposophy, New Acropolis etc. are seen as slick propaganda organizations masking a racist and fascist ideology. To depend on them for objective information about New Acropolis is like consulting Goering about Judaism. Govert From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:20:38 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: Theosophy Feb 17 '98 Dallas writes: Dear Jerry: =20 Apparently we all have preferences. But I would not call myself = qualified to judge as to the relative excellence of any one presentation = over another unless I had fully tested it. Then of course I give = references to back it up. No one quibbles over the stature or nature of = HPB. She was pivotal. WQj was her co-worker. Testimonials from HPB = are many and strong and can be easily adduced from the back pages of = LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME (ULT - Theosophy Company edition, p 276 et = seq.)=20 Judge worked to introduce Theosophy to as many people who wanted it, = right from the very beginning. HPB ( and the Masters) called him the = "Resuscitator of Theosophy in America." You can certainly say that the = work of WQJ was to introduce Theosophy to the masses -- and he then = pointed to HPB and to ISIS and the SD if they desired to proceed = further. He was of the opinion that Theosophy was essentially a matter of = practice and the metaphysics and doctrines, while studied, ought to form = the basis for explaining the practical side. HPB offered the thesis = consistently that if there was to be any progress in true occultism it = was to be by the perfection of the moral channel in ones personal life.=20 As to his views on the "psychic side" of things being one-sided, I = cannot say as you do not give me a basis to know how or why you say = that. Check what he says in the OCEAN chapters 4, 5,6, 7, and 16, 17 = for continuity with what HPB says in the KEY as from pp. 52 - 60, 83 - = 226. (a longer reading) But while you and many might call these "basic" or "preliminary" I find = that most of us are not fully aware of the statements made there, so as = to be able to use them without reference to the texts. I know that I = have to refer back to them constantly. I also know from practical and a = many-yeared experience that they are one of the best keys to = understanding the S D. =20 If we don't have the logic of Theosophy firmly in mind, from the = original Messengers, then we are not easily able to figure out the = details of the doctrines and metaphysics that give still greater depth = in understanding. I like the idea that Nature (the Universe) contains all. That we as = self-conscious beings (minds) are linked inseparably to the ABSOLUTE . = We are a part of IT, and therefore have all the potentials within = ourselves. But we are learning to access them, and we need all the help = we can secure, from our own minds, here and now, to every bit of help we = can get from any source that is not prejudiced or self-interested. =20 Knowledge is the property of everyone. Wisdom comes from experience in = trying to apply that knowledge and in sharpening our memory so that we = do not repeat errors. =20 I would place for my self an indefinite goal of ever-progressing, as, if = I am immortal in essence (not in personality) then this immortal = individual that takes on body after body is the one which grows, and = when it reincarnates it takes less and less time for it to recapture the = memory of past lives. (and I do not mean the name, form and works of = those personalities, but, rather, the character, capacity, talents, and = hopes). I have tried to read de Puruker starting from the basis I have = acquired from HPB and WQJ. And I found that I was trying to disentangle his = views from theirs. I noticed the difference and it was to me, tedious. = Well, what else can I say ? In some cases where his talks were reported = he starts out telling his audience that they cannot possibly understand = the metaphysics ... and frankly I dislike being talked down to. If we = are all immortals, then my "spirit and Buddhi" is no less than the = highest of the Mahatmas. The difference between my "lowly" position on = the ladder and Theirs -- is that they have mastered their personality = and I still have far to do that for mine ! Such being the case I = respect and revere Them -- all of them -- and hope some day to be = worthy of Their notice and assistance. In the meantime, I try to help = others. What else can one do ? One has to start from the position Karma has = placed us in. thanks for the response -- hope I have made myself clear. Best = wishes as always, Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:53:33 EST From: "William Greer" Subject: Re:Croatian TS & New Acropolis Dear Kazimir, Thanks for your posts to theos-talk with information about the NA. I am sure that many readers will be interested and very thankful for your time and effort. --- Nathan Greer From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:46:33 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Feb 17th 1998 Dear Jerry: Would it be possible to give a page and source reference to the statement made by A. Besant's 1906 London lecture in which she speaks of Judge as having made peace with HPB and cooperating with her on fresh plans for the TS ? Sounds extraordinary -- and I have not seen this yet anywhere else. do help if you have the reference available. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:13:23 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: One more idea Doss, that's a terrific idea. The practical aspect is great. We could also combine it with some statements on the idealism of Brotherhood, communication, etc. Isn't that why we are theosophists? All that with lots of signatures should make it a powerful document, indeed. With the advent of the internet, there were many instances where chain letters were responsible for change. Thoa :o) Doss: >Here is one more idea to encourage the TSA National President and members of >the Board of Directors to get actively involved in the Theosophy maillists >and Newsgroup so that Thesophy and Humanity can be served. > >One or more of us could draft a letter focusing on the immense opportunity >that these channels are providing for communication with members and others >interested in Theosophy. Also should be addressed is the issue of bringing >them up to speed what maillists and newsgroup are and how they function and >how they have worldwide coverage at no cost to the person participating in >them. It is very difficult for anyone to visualize the maillists and >newsgroups until and unless one gets involved in person and even then it >takes time to learn how to best use these free resources. I am speaking from >personal knowledge. In spite of my long involvement in computers, until I >got myself Internet connection and started participating in the maillists >and newsgroups, I did not get a first hand appreciation of the immense power >and potential of these tools. > >Once the draft letter is finalized, it can be sent to the National President >and each member of the Board of Directors with a request to the National >President to do two things. (1) Include it in the Agenda of the upcoming >meeting of the Board of Directors and (2) Suggest that in the next annual >meeting to have a town hall meeting type of discussion on the Internet and >maillists and newsgroups and how they can be used as communication tools. > >When the above letter is sent, I recommend that it be sent to the National >President by First Class Mail, e-mail and Fax. The reason for sending it >through multiple channels is to make sure that the communication positively >and quickly reaches him. Also after a couple of days, a followup fax is >advisable to inform that if the document has not reached asking to be >contacted so that the document can be re-faxed. As for the rest of the >members of the Board of Directors, the document should also concurrently be >sent by First Class Mail. This speeds up communication and allows time for >the Board members to be aware of the issues and think it over a period of >time before the actual Board meeting takes place. The multiple modes of >communication recommended above, I have found to be fool proof over a period >of time in almost everyone of my communications with the National President >and that is why I am recommending it. I believe that on very important >matters such as the one we are considering we should not take any chances of >the letters being lost in transit, misplaced etc. > >My 0.02. > >MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:36:20 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: GREAT GRATITUDE Mark: >Tao Tai Chi Tao, >The Wine Drunk Taoist. >"Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttt!" Oh, dear... I better go get this man some coffee. :o) Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:23:32 -0600 From: "Govert Schuller Subject: Re:Croatian TS & New Acropolis Kazimir wrote: > I think that there was some official warning from Adyar TS about NA, >titled 'New Acropolis, good imitation of TS but danger trap' or something >like that. Those of you who are members of TS should know better. > Does anybody have this article? like to read it. Govert From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:19:03 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Re:Croatian TS & New Acropolis In a message dated 98-02-17 11:49:06 EST, you write: << Simpos is a site run by a Dutch foundation that keeps tabs on certain social and occult tendencies within society. Unfortunately they seem to be acting from a left wing hard core skeptical world view, by which almost all esoteric organizations like theosophy and anthroposophy, New Acropolis etc. are seen as slick propaganda organizations masking a racist and fascist ideology. To depend on them for objective information about New Acropolis is like consulting Goering about Judaism. >> I've checked out the website and I agree with you, Govert. It's biased. Apparently objectivity is not one of their virtues. Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:48:53 -0600 From: "Nancy L Malcom" Subject: Re:Re: Theosophy When my mentor introduced me to Theosophy, he asked that I study first The Ocean of Theosophy by Judge. What impressed me immediately, as a novice, and which some of you may have forgotten, is the level of his writting. Although Ocean seems fairly simplified, it is like a rock skipped over a pond. He touches on subjects that are only used as titles for studies that spiral into infinite depths. The man was very wise. As a writer I recognized a thousand "subplots" to every topic he touched on. It was not a book written to "explain" Theosophy, but a book written to introduce critical minds to concepts on a level they could absorb. Nancy Malcom From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:20:200 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: Theosophy Feb 17 '98 Dallas writes: Dear Jerry: Apparently we all have preferences. But I would not call myself qualified to judge as to the relative excellence of any one presentation over another unless I had fully tested it. Then of course I give references to back it up. No one quibbles over the stature or nature of HPB. She was pivotal. WQj was her co-worker. Testimonials from HPB are many and strong and can be easily adduced from the back pages of LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME (ULT - Theosophy Company edition, p 276 et seq.) Judge worked to introduce Theosophy to as many people who wanted it, right from the very beginning. HPB ( and the Masters) called him the "Resuscitator of Theosophy in America." You can certainly say that the work of WQJ was to introduce Theosophy to the masses -- and he then pointed to HPB and to ISIS and the SD if they desired to proceed further. He was of the opinion that Theosophy was essentially a matter of practice and the metaphysics and doctrines, while studied, ought to form the basis for explaining the practical side. HPB offered the thesis consistently that if there was to be any progress in true occultism it was to be by the perfection of the moral channel in ones personal life. As to his views on the "psychic side" of things being one-sided, I cannot say as you do not give me a basis to know how or why you say that. Check what he says in the OCEAN chapters 4, 5,6, 7, and 16, 17 for continuity with what HPB says in the KEY as from pp. 52 - 60, 83 - 226. (a longer reading) But while you and many might call these "basic" or "preliminary" I find that most of us are not fully aware of the statements made there, so as to be able to use them without reference to the texts. I know that I have to refer back to them constantly. I also know from practical and a many-yeared experience that they are one of the best keys to understanding the S D. If we don't have the logic of Theosophy firmly in mind, from the original Messengers, then we are not easily able to figure out the details of the doctrines and metaphysics that give still greater depth in understanding. I like the idea that Nature (the Universe) contains all. That we as self-conscious beings (minds) are linked inseparably to the ABSOLUTE . We are a part of IT, and therefore have all the potentials within ourselves. But we are learning to access them, and we need all the help we can secure, from our own minds, here and now, to every bit of help we can get from any source that is not prejudiced or self-interested. Knowledge is the property of everyone. Wisdom comes from experience in trying to apply that knowledge and in sharpening our memory so that we do not repeat errors. I would place for my self an indefinite goal of ever-progressing, as, if I am immortal in essence (not in personality) then this immortal individual that takes on body after body is the one which grows, and when it reincarnates it takes less and less time for it to recapture the memory of past lives. (and I do not mean the name, form and works of those personalities, but, rather, the character, capacity, talents, and hopes). I have tried to read de Puruker starting from the basis I have acquired from HPB and WQJ. And I found that I was trying to disentangle his views from theirs. I noticed the difference and it was to me, tedious. Well, what else can I say ? In some cases where his talks were reported he starts out telling his audience that they cannot possibly understand the metaphysics ... and frankly I dislike being talked down to. If we are all immortals, then my "spirit and Buddhi" is no less than the highest of the Mahatmas. The difference between my "lowly" position on the ladder and Theirs -- is that they have mastered their personality and I still have far to do that for mine ! Such being the case I respect and revere Them -- all of them -- and hope some day to be worthy of Their notice and assistance. In the meantime, I try to help others. What else can one do ? One has to start from the position Karma has placed us in. thanks for the response -- hope I have made myself clear. Best wishes as always, Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:42:55 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge The postings on theos-talk about WQ Judge & K Tingley haven't been too specific, but email correspondents have provided several documents. There's a letter by a Mr Emil August Neresheimer dated March 31, 1896. Excerpts follow: "The day after he [Judge] died he sent for me through [a symbol here designating Mrs K Tingley] with whom he made me acquainted in 1894........ Next day early I called, could not connect with him [Judge], all I could get through [Mrs Tingley] was 'to go slow, immensely slow.' He had something to say before the incineration. He came again at 12 m. next day but said nothing of any account. [Mrs Tingley] was not conscious. Two days afterward I was sent for in the evening.............I went, made notes of what he [Judge] wished me to say to the others, which was mostly retailing my entire connection, introduction by him [Judge] to [Mrs Tingley], all that transpired about the arrangement of the Convention of 1895, program of which was furnished me by [Mrs Tingley] and which was carried out. This I did to the (skeptical) audience consisting of E.T.H. Patterson, James Pryse, Griscom, Fussell (who were all designated to hear it) and I also transmitted the appointment for all of us to meet at Purple's [Mrs Tingley] same evening at 7:45 p.m. The Rajah [Judge] commenced to talk almost immediately through [Mrs Tingley], suggesting to select the Outer-Head and the Council. First change of feeling occurred at recognition of the Rajah. Skepticism was carried to the winds, doubts vanished, and spontaneity prevailed........I tell you the thing was most wonderful and impressive......" It's unclear to me as to the source of letter. I will write & ask. My correspondent writes that Mr Neresheimer was close friend of Mr Judge's & was executor of Judge's will. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:43:29 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Re:One more idea At 09:18 AM 2/17/98 -0600, you wrote: >Here is one more idea to encourage the TSA National President and members of >the Board of Directors to get actively involved in the Theosophy maillists >and Newsgroup so that Thesophy and Humanity can be served. This statement is so inane! Everyone serves according to their own dharam, remember? Their freedom of choice!?! Does that mean anything to you? >One or more of us could draft a letter focusing on the immense opportunity >that these channels are providing for communication with members and others >interested in Theosophy. Also should be addressed is the issue of bringing >them up to speed what maillists and newsgroup are and how they function and >how they have worldwide coverage at no cost to the person participating in >them. It is very difficult for anyone to visualize the maillists and >newsgroups until and unless one gets involved in person and even then it >takes time to learn how to best use these free resources. I am speaking from >personal knowledge. If you really knew how to use the maillists, you wouldn't be filling it with so much DESIRE for attention. Here you have a perfectly wonderful opportunity (and so do others, until a couple of loudmouths blow it!) to communicate with a variety of theosophists in your living room. What the board does is their business! What we do is ask ourselves many of the pertinent questions and strive to answer them, which is utterly human and has nothing to do with whether we work on some board. If you have questions and statements to make, make them here to the members. If you want to write to the board, write to the board, but when you insist that some people pay attention to your inanities, you are misusing the lists. Isn't it wonderful that we can speak with each other here? Use it to the fullest, but what you are trying to do is begin a completely different discussion list. You are trying to start a new discussion list for people in the T. S. who hold power. We have a discussion list and it has a purpose. Why are you insisting that this list isn't good enough? When you have questions, just ask them here. Chances are that the answers and opinions you get here are appropriate for you and the answers you get from the board are appropriate for them. Why confuse the two segments and insist that they meet and join up? >Once the draft letter is finalized, it can be sent to the National President >and each member of the Board of Directors with a request to the National >President to do two things. (1) Include it in the Agenda of the upcoming >meeting of the Board of Directors and Do you really think that the numbers of members here is large enough to warrant this? Do you really think the access is FREE (as you keep insisting) enough to be fair to all of the members? (2) Suggest that in the next annual >meeting to have a town hall meeting type of discussion on the Internet and >maillists and newsgroups and how they can be used as communication tools. Don't you think they consider these types of issues already? The board talks for hours, according to the material which each board member prepares and produces for their meetings. Write to you board director ONLY if you have ideas for board discussions. This is the way it was set up. You elected one of the directors and they are there for you to access if you have business you would like to be presented. You are ignoring simple protocol procedures. >When the above letter is sent, I recommend that it be sent to the National >President by First Class Mail, e-mail and Fax. The reason for sending it >through multiple channels is to make sure that the communication positively >and quickly reaches him. Also after a couple of days, a followup fax is >advisable to inform that if the document has not reached asking to be >contacted so that the document can be re-faxed. As for the rest of the >members of the Board of Directors, the document should also concurrently be >sent by First Class Mail. This speeds up communication and allows time for >the Board members to be aware of the issues and think it over a period of >time before the actual Board meeting takes place. The multiple modes of >communication recommended above, I have found to be fool proof over a period >of time in almost everyone of my communications with the National President >and that is why I am recommending it. I believe that on very important >matters such as the one we are considering we should not take any chances of >the letters being lost in transit, misplaced etc. Again, this idea is inane and you are harrassing the officers of our organization and encouraging members who need to be considering TRUTH as a diet into adverse patterns of thinking and operating. Brenda Tucker From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:44:34 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE Dallas continues >Ecstasy Webster - being outside of "ones' self -- out of >reason or self-control -- over- > mastering feeling -- In >mysticism: prophetic or poetic trance > Apparently there are two levels/stages: Controlled and >uncontrolled > >Hence in theosophical psychology (as I read it) you have the >condition of the Adept who >controls and of the medium (or channeler) who is passive and is >controlled by some external "influence" It seems to me that passion is inherent in the condition of ectasy. The medium might be "outside of himself" but this could be, and often is a painful experience. The condition of ectasy, I picture as consciousness spreading out as the ripples do when you throw a pebble in a pond- there is a central point to return to. But as I said before, normally this results in the consciousness we have in dreamless sleep. >As I understand it for an Adept to contact his "Divine Inner >Self" [ HIGHER SELF ] he has to so purify his personal [ Lower ] >Self that it can become transparent to the "divine" and the >"spiritual." Hence, the study of and practice of morals on the >thesis that we are at root immortals and that Karma operates >incessantly and our 'motives' make or break or progress to that >point of divine or spiritual contact. I f one wishes to converse with the Higher Self one must use language it undrerstands. Some expect the Higher Self to be the same as the lower mind in function only greater- a kind of super- brain power. >To me it seems that the personal mind (my self here, awake in >this body, now) has to make itself as pure as possible so that it >can unerringly contact by will-power, its own >HIGHER SELF Not only that, by working on the lower members we make more of the Higher Self. >It thus seems to me that the inclination of the/my embodied, >personal mind/self is towards a selfishness that desires to >"protect" the status quo to which it is accustomed. And also toward a wish for betterment. This may take the form ambitiousness. Ambition may wrong, but growth itself is part of Nature and not selfish. (Light on the Path) The rose by making herself more beautiful makes the whole garden beautiful- Goethe (roughly). Fraternally, Bruce From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:09:32 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: THE MULBERRY BUSH As we ease back into our armchair of comfortable thought, and try to profess a longing for infinite wisdom - finite enough to be understood - and sit with t.v., dinner, magazine, and footstool. . . WHEN we look to those experiences which are most pleasurable in one's lifestyle, it is the familiar, and the homely (as opposed to the passions, and the aspect of 'newness' invigorating). It is rather repetition, and anticipation of repetition, when we settle down to welcome and enjoy, some simple, but pleasurable, experience. Some things we never seem to tire of. In point of fact, they better, with each and every day. And we get used to the way that we prepare our own cup of tea, and we savour those favourite recipes within our own home life, and although the slippers are not outstandingly special, they are worn through, and made more comfortable with time; and all that we treasure - those objects made special, that invoke such pleasure to be around - they too have their significance, in our happy, settled, comforts. There is of course, pleasure, outside of this definition. Pleasure, passionate pleasure, in which one indulges, and extracts from, some entirely new encounter. But this form of pleasure, the excited rather than the simple and the humble, is not of discussion today. And if we are to prepare ourselves for new experiences, and be open to new forms of thinking, and being, for that matter, then are we to sever some of that pleasure, which hitherto has come from familiarity; and if so, do we not feel pained by this loss? One must remember that the beliefs of another are not simply philosophical perspective, objective and unexperienced. Firstly there are elements of truth to every idea (or else the idea itself should not exist) and there are small amounts, or large amounts of value placed to each idea - and lastly, furthermore, there is the association of man to his ideas, the bonding, which holds them dear to him, those which are especially familiar, and well known by him. And so if we are to expect another to instantly sever themselves from the ideas which they have formerly held and experienced, then we are to understand that they are not merely ideas, but concepts held precious, because of the pleasure brought about by their relationship; now familiar. Therefore, unless one is to upset a man entirely (and this is never advised), then one must look to building upon and enhancing a brother's concepts, rather than trying to wipe away, or destroy their familiar base. And this can be done. -B.Hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:57:32 -0800 From: "Martin Leiderman" Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? Eldon B Tucker wrote: > I did not have a chance to look at it. Has anyone been or known > any members of this organization? What do they say about it? > -- Eldon Eldon, I was some time ago a member of NA. I found it in Los Angeles in 1977. Later the NA split into two very different orgnizations: Jorge A. Livraga in Europe (headquarters in Madrid) who kept the name of NA and his ex-wife Ada Albretch in Argentina (Headquarters in Buenos Aires), under the new name of International Organization Hastinapura. I decided to aligned with Hastinapura. Later I closed it, I think in 1983 (have to check my notes, time flies) Since then, I have not had any links with any of them. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:47:30 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge W Judge's letter concerning his messages from dead Mrs Blavatsky----- "All Communications herein must be marked 'Private' and contain no other Business. E.S.T. WILLIAM Q. JUDGE 144 Madison Avenue, New York, Jan. 4, 1895 Dr. A. Keightley (for Councillors etc.) Comrades Enclosed is an exact transcript of what HPB said to me Jany 3, prematurely ended by a visitor - as usual & as results from European continual nagging at me. It is word for word. More will be said later. You can let all worthy & devoted loyalists read this - It may be read in a proper group. Copies not to be made. This is to be kept with Council papers. Fraternally William Q. Judge Go to no extremes in thought or act hereupon." Transcript of dead Mrs Blavatsky's message to W Judge enclosed in Judge's letter: "HPB. Jany 3 1895 Yours is not a (bootless) or fruitless) errand. You have nobly sustained our cause in the crisis. Be encouraged. Well did Master know the staunch fearless attributes of your soul when he directed me to make you leader of our craft in America. As the centre of our force is attacked the more does our light work for the right. Victory is ours. All will end for the good of all. Mistakes have been made but you have not gone far from the lines laid down by Master. My desire is for you to be careful about sending out Instructions to the E.S. for treacherous and unworthy persons are within the gates, & all new ideas will be appropriated by the other side after x x x x. The forces are out and annihilation is the only thing that can interfere. Let me tell you some of the things I have learned since I absented myself from the outer world. Many of the problems of life that should have been solved if we had been more together have come up before me & I have learned much. I am, next to the American work, interested in Spain. Ireland can take care of itself. In the pine woods I have found a lodge which I knew something about before I went away. There, seven chelas & the light they show that some day will be better known, I will describe to you at our next meeting. There is much connected with it that can be used for irradiating forces in this country for there is a subtle connection. Be sure that at our next meeting it is not forgotten x x x x Slowly the light from this Lodge is being thrown over Spain & I see that from the old corpse of bigotry superstition & credulity will be reared a temple of light which will unite its forces with that of America & Ireland & from these three points I know that humanity will be saved. x x x This battle of light & darkness in our midst seems but small (little) when I view the work before us x x x and the ends and prospects of our work shall stem the tide of this cruel & unworthy persecution. Under all work shall stem the tide of this cruel & unworthy persecution. Under all of it & over it all the Masters hand; be sure that all is well for thee. x x x x. The light mentioned in Spain is of seven sides & a purple & yellow light. On each of the seven sides is a star. This represents the Lodge of Spain. Connect yourself with it as you will be directed. x x x I will not permit you to resign nor will I permit you to submit to further investigation. Form your plans for the American work. Keep all your lines perfect with sustaining points & leave the rest to us. This is to your questions of last night. x x x x x I will not touch on minor points. They will take care of themselves. Master is not after minor points. Let us turn our eyes to the American future of Theosophy. x x x x (Interruption & conclusion by a visitor)" Esoteric paper of W Judge. Also printed in "Library Critic" by Mr H Stookes. (what issue?) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:48:02 -0800 From: "Martin Leiderman" Subject: Information wanted on Library Critic Judge I recently bought several hundred issues of the "OE Library Critic". I have most of the issues from 1917 till 1935. Does anyone know when they were first issued, and when the last issue was published? Thank you. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:16:04 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Dear Dallas, I will gladly look for the passage for you. But since Besant's lectures were never indexed, it will take me a while. So please be patient with me. In the mean time, perhaps someone else may recall the cited passage and save me some time. jhe Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Feb 17th 1998 > > Dear Jerry: > > Would it be possible to give a page and source reference to the > statement made by A. Besant's 1906 London lecture in which she > speaks of Judge as having made peace with HPB and cooperating > with her on fresh plans for the TS ? > > Sounds extraordinary -- and I have not seen this yet anywhere > else. do help if you have the reference available. > > Dallas > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:24 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Information wanted on Library Critic Judge Hi, They ran from 30 Aug. 1911 till 1942 (Sept, I think off hand). jhe Martin Leiderman wrote: > I recently bought several hundred issues of the "OE Library Critic". I > have most of the issues from 1917 till 1935. > > Does anyone know when they were first issued, and when the last issue > was published? > > Thank you. > > Martin > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:48:14 -0600 From: "Govert Schuller Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? > >Eldon, I was some time ago a member of NA. >I found it in Los Angeles in 1977. Later the NA split into two very >different orgnizations: Jorge A. Livraga in Europe (headquarters in >Madrid) who kept the name of NA and his ex-wife Ada Albretch in >Argentina (Headquarters in Buenos Aires), under the new name of >International Organization Hastinapura. >I decided to aligned with Hastinapura. Later I closed it, I think in >1983 (have to check my notes, time flies) >Since then, I have not had any links with any of them. > >Martin Dear Martin, Did you ever find anything sinister about NA? And what kind of activities were/are they organizing from which the TS could learn? Best wishes Govert > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:48:07 -0700 From: "Dick Slusser" Subject: hct: Canadian excomm. issue online To Theos-World subscribers interested in an in-depth exploration of causes leading up to the ex-communication of the Canadian Section of T.S. Adyar, please see The High Country Theosophist for Sept 1992. It is online at: Subject: Judge's "spirit world communications" In a message dated 98-02-17 21:49:19 EST, David Green quotes Neresheimer's letter: << The Rajah [Judge] commenced to talk almost immediately through [Mrs Tingley], suggesting to select the Outer-Head and the Council. >> This letter confirms my suspicion that Madame Tingley used her trance mediumship to manipulate and secure for herself the successorship of Judge's TS in A. Apparently, there must have been many who accepted as authentic Judge's "spirit communications" through the Purple Mother (Tingley) or Promise as she was known then. In 1898, the TS in A was reduced to a "department" in Tingley's Universal Brotherhood organization (p. 270 in Theos. Movem't: 1875-1950). Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:46:33 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Dear David Green, I must say that I find this publication of ES documents and edited letters without naming their source or giving them context disturbing. As interesting as the Neresheimer letter is, you do not tell us to whom the letter was written, nor do we know where the original resides. These are important details in order to give the letter authenticity and context. I'm also reluctant to comment on this letter because the subject concerns occult matters that have been up to this time protected by the Judge/Point Loma/Pasadena tradition Theosophists and are not discussed--certainly not on a public forum like this. But, in order to stay the confusion created by this annotated and context less letter, I think that this much ought to be said: I believe that the annotator's square bracketed identification of the Rajah with Judge is incorrect, or at least very misleading. The Raja or "luminous youth" was the name of an oil painting that Judge made of a young man. Little is known about this portrait except that it was supposed to be of a person of high occult status who was connected with Judge. After Judge's death Tingley kept this painting in her home behind a curtain that was kept closed when visitors were present. She used the painting for occult purposes. You are of course free to attach whatever meaning to this that makes you happy, but keep in mind that she did not discuss the painting or what use she made of it with others. She also eventually had the painting destroyed. I leave the meaning of all of this to your intuition. Regarding the EST communication, I have no record of such a communication going out to the ES members on that date, or any other date that year, and I believe that my file is fairly complete for that period. I would be very interested in knowing the date of the O.E. Library Critic from which this circular was supposed to have been taken. Also, EST circulars sent out by Judge around that time bore a London (not New York) address, because Judge was residing in London at that time. I'm not questioning the existence of the message, but only complaining that when you present documents on the net in this way, you make it impossible for the readers to confirm and put them into an historical context, and therefore to intelligently comment upon them. So please, now that you have published these documents, would you please give us complete information about them, so that we will be able to make our own evaluations. Thank you JHE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:25:53 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE >From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" >Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 9:33 PM >Subject: Re:GREAT GRATITUDE >Dallas continues >>Ecstasy Webster - being outside of "ones' self -- out of >>reason or self-control -- over- >> mastering feeling -- In >>mysticism: prophetic or poetic trance >> Apparently there are two levels/stages: Controlled and >>uncontrolled >> >>Hence in theosophical psychology (as I read it) you have the >>condition of the Adept who >>controls and of the medium (or channeler) who is passive and is >>controlled by some external "influence" > >It seems to me that passion is inherent in the condition of ectasy. The >medium might be "outside of himself" but this could be, and often is a >painful experience. >The condition of ectasy, I picture as consciousness spreading out as the >ripples do when you throw a pebble in a pond- there is a central point to >return to. But as I said before, normally this results in the consciousness >we have in dreamless sleep. > >>As I understand it for an Adept to contact his "Divine Inner >>Self" [ HIGHER SELF ] he has to so purify his personal [ Lower ] >>Self that it can become transparent to the "divine" and the >>"spiritual." Hence, the study of and practice of morals on the >>thesis that we are at root immortals and that Karma operates >>incessantly and our 'motives' make or break or progress to that >>point of divine or spiritual contact. > >I f one wishes to converse with the Higher Self one must use language it >undrerstands. >Some expect the Higher Self to be the same as the lower mind in function >only greater- a kind of super- brain power. > >>To me it seems that the personal mind (my self here, awake in >>this body, now) has to make itself as pure as possible so that it >>can unerringly contact by will-power, its own >>HIGHER SELF >Not only that, by working on the lower members we make more of the Higher >Self. > >>It thus seems to me that the inclination of the/my embodied, >>personal mind/self is towards a selfishness that desires to >>"protect" the status quo to which it is accustomed. > >And also toward a wish for betterment. This may take the form ambitiousness. >Ambition may wrong, but growth itself is part of Nature and not selfish. >(Light on the Path) >The rose by making herself more beautiful makes the whole garden beautiful- >Goethe (roughly). > >Fraternally, >Bruce > >KEITH: Ya know, I never understood that line in Shelly in TO A SKYLARK where he says that truth is beauty and beauty truth. It goes against our being ''superficial" about physical beauty etc, but beauty is compassion and compassions, beauty. The centering of servere justice, loving forgiveness, analysis, and timeless order is BEAUTY and that makes me very grateful and .. Ecstatically yours, Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:34:29 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Re:MAYA and Gnostic article >From: "Brenda S Tucker" >Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 11:24 AM >Subject: MAYA and Gnostic article > >>The problems with spin these spider like webs of maya or illusion is that >>one can become trapped in them as a spider in a web ( another common >>metaphor). People also inject each other's lives with this maya in an >>insect like manner. I have a chip on my shoulder and I go around poisoning >>the atmosphere due to my unresolved neurotic knots or skandhas. > >You talk about people being destructive in both of your posts and I just >would like to make a short comment concerning what you wrote and also what >I have read in the recent issue of Theosophy World. An article by Rick >Taylor points out to us that HPB ignores gnostic groups that are licentious >and only focuses on elevating the status of the denegrated REAL gnostics, >those who should have been applauded, but were criticized falsely by the >Christians. > >1. First, I would like to say that what you, Keith, are claiming is MAYA, >the I AM Temple refers to as our psychic atmosphere. They are decreeing >constantly for the annihilation of all psychism, which to me represents >False Thinking. > >2. Second, humans who are destructive are to be stopped, as you mention >also in reference to Redfield's book. > >3. I think it's kind of curious that we are faced with this dilemma of "Who >are we doing this for?" I don't like to see theosophy used as a method for >a few people to become superior beings. I would much prefer to divide a >group into us and them perhaps as if we are doing charitable work. For >instance, the group Rick Taylor claims is never quoted by HPB do to their >sex habits, seems slightly archaic to me because 1) Perhaps they didn't >want to be quoted. Sometimes we don't quote from material that is TOO >SACRED as well as that which is inappropriate. 2) Who are we doing this >for? When we determine that our meditations are falling on deaf ears, how >do we know? If we could all use theosophy as our tool of outreach to those >individuals who don't have as much as we do, wouldn't this be the ideal >expression of love. We do our life styles and our meditations so that >others who are less fortunate can benefit with our radiations or vibrations >or whatever, but so that their lives can be blessed and sacred and >beneficial ones and not so that we can elevate ourselves above any one >group or another. > >Thanks for sharing. > >Brenda > >--Keith: This is a very crucial topic for me right now. Yes, am I trying to achieve 1) personal satisfaction- animal and vegetable level 2) social approval - exoteric goodness and social acceptablility 3) personal liberation 4) salvation and correction of the world process Number 4 is relegated to the Nirmankayas, Messiahs and Masters, but the higher worlds cry out for our participation and much as we cry out to them to help us in our struggles on the path. To what degree can we light a flame from the divine fire and carry it to kindle others. Some say they are doing it and aren't. Some want to and can't. Some are and dont' know it. Some know it - the gnostics! Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:49:24 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge I tooo would like more info on those 2 documents. London correspondent who sent me transcriptions emails that the Mr Nereshirmer letter is in E Greenwalt's book on Mrs Tingley & the W Judge letter is from "O E Library Critic"-----Novem 1932. What does O E mean in the title of this journal? I have neither item but will try to borrow copies or get photocopies. Maybe someone else knows more details? JHE's latest post raises a question-------Why are Theosophists so secretive & clickish? Today after classes I waded thru Judge chaper in Cunningham Press "Theosophical Movement" & found (pp 267) that "Rajah" was "occult designation of Judge." Who are the editors of this history? D Green >Dear David Green, > >I must say that I find this publication of ES documents and edited >letters without naming their source or giving them context disturbing. >As interesting as the Neresheimer letter is, you do not tell us to whom >the letter was written, nor do we know where the original resides. >These are important details in order to give the letter authenticity and >context. I'm also reluctant to comment on this letter because the >subject concerns occult matters that have been up to this time protected >by the Judge/Point Loma/Pasadena tradition Theosophists and are not >discussed--certainly not on a public forum like this. But, in order to >stay the confusion created by this annotated and context less letter, I >think that this much ought to be said: I believe that the annotator's >square bracketed identification of the Rajah with Judge is incorrect, or >at least very misleading. The Raja or "luminous youth" was the name of >an oil painting that Judge made of a young man. Little is known about >this portrait except that it was supposed to be of a person of high >occult status who was connected with Judge. After Judge's death Tingley >kept this painting in her home behind a curtain that was kept closed >when visitors were present. She used the painting for occult purposes. >You are of course free to attach whatever meaning to this that makes you >happy, but keep in mind that she did not discuss the painting or what >use she made of it with others. She also eventually had the painting >destroyed. I leave the meaning of all of this to your intuition. > >Regarding the EST communication, I have no record of such a >communication going out to the ES members on that date, or any other >date that year, and I believe that my file is fairly complete for that >period. I would be very interested in knowing the date of the O.E. >Library Critic from which this circular was supposed to have been >taken. Also, EST circulars sent out by Judge around that time bore a >London (not New York) address, because Judge was residing in London at >that time. I'm not questioning the existence of the message, but only >complaining that when you present documents on the net in this way, you >make it impossible for the readers to confirm and put them into an >historical context, and therefore to intelligently comment upon them. > >So please, now that you have published these documents, would you please >give us complete information about them, so that we will be able to make >our own evaluations. > >Thank you >JHE > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:45:36 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >From: "Eldon B Tucker" >Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 3:41 PM >Subject: Re:Excuse me!? On limited number of souls >Keith and Pam: > >Keith asks if spirituality is on the increase in politics, >society, or art, and indicates that things may be getting bad. > >Pam replies with personal examples of how things are getting >better and suggests that "the coming generation was not born for >our time, it was born for their own". > >Keith then mentions that "what if there really WASN'T a Santa >Claus?" He warns that we shouldn't "make over a cruel world in the >phoney baloney image of the namby pamby liberal mush". > >As I see it, the world as we know it -- life on the physical plane >-- is neutral. It's neither good nor bad, awful nor wonderful, but >like tofu -- it takes on the flavor of whatever you cook it with. >The external world is like a blank sheet of paper that takes on >whatever you or I put on it. > >This is not to say that behind things, there aren't higher planes, >and there aren't high spiritual beings that oversee external life, >providing a sense of natural order to life, and giving an >underlying basis of compassion to life. > >For us as individuals, the world can be a mirror. It'll take on >whatever face we bring to it. It is rich in content, full of every >possible imaginable thing, like chaos, but *we draw out* certain >things into existence about us, we *exteriorize* them. > >There are both dark and bright sides to life, and like different >channels on the TV, we can tune into one or the other. All the >channels are real, all are happening, but we pick the one that >we're watching, the one that externally becomes real in our living >room, our daily life. > >In life, the world about us is like that initially blank TV >screen. We pick the channel, we tune into the type of content and >set the nature of our experiences. We can pick an awful channel >and say "life is hell" and see it that way and be correct. Some >other people can pick wonderful channels and say "life is joyous, >blissful, simply great!" and see it that way and also be correct. > >The important point is that although external life is neutral, it >isn't cold, heartless, evil, dark unless we paint it that way, >unless we use our powers of mind to project a worldview that sees >it that way. The way that we fashion our worldview, and use our >mind -- we don't just affect our subjective impressions. We become >a source of the light or darkness that we perceive. Others are >affected by how we see and experience things. We can become a >source of light in the world, or a dark cloud and drain on the >life energies of others. It all depends on which channels we >watch, on which types of consciousness that we tune into, on how >we fashion our self-made experience of life. > >-- Eldon > >-- Keith: I am a little late responding. I needed to cool down and return to the middle path myself. Yes, the middle way between extreme judgement and extreme mercy has always been suggested as the path of spiritual growth. Sometimes I feel karma and maya can pop up so strong that we cannot detach. or at least I cannot yet. Equanimity is a supposed goal - ie that one treats triumph and victory on the physical plane with the same steady spiritual stregth gained from above. I think I have felt this more and more. Some talk of faith not as a leap from the rational to the irrational or a sarcrifice of intellect (sacrificium intellectualis of Jung) but of a deep guiding warm unseen hand. Perhaps this was the hand that guided HPB eyes over the symbols she saw as she contemplated the sacred gemoetry of the divine language called Senzar. I can accept on faith that the process was real whether or not there was ever any physical manuscripts of Kui Ti. Perhaps she read them as akaschic records from the astral plane. No matter, the proof is, is it a repeatable experiment. Does it have elegance and robustness. Does it work? I think that she is more famous among her detractors who blame her for all the "evil" of the new age messiness. But I think many authors have created psuedoepigraphic works to give them authority until they stood on their own. Also: I still wonder about the number of souls. I think of the world soul as the LOGOS or flame. We are small souls or sparks of the flames. Some burn brightly and some flicker, but all are only candles except for the burning fire that doesn't consume, but constructs. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:55:25 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Bart, I have read through the International Bylaws and I'm unable to find where it specifically requires a section's bylaws to incorporate language identifying their allegiance to Adyar. I would think it would be in section 37, Rules for Lodges and National Societies, but I don't see it here either. Please tell me where you find this requirement in the bylaws. JHE Bart Lidofsky wrote: > The Canadian Lodges were thrown out on a technicality. In order to maintain > tax-exempt status, they had to remove language from their by-laws that they were > part of the TS in Adyar, which meant that Adyar had to amend (or ignore) TS > by-laws in order to keep Canada in. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:07:43 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Doss, I've gone through the International Bylaws and don't see where the International President requires the approval of the General Council to cancel a charter. I find at rule 36a: All charters of National Societies or Lodges (Branches) and all Diplomas (Certificates) of membership derive their authority from the President, acting as Executive Officer of the General Council of the Society, and may be cancelled by the same authority. JHE M K Ramadoss wrote: > The International President with the approval of the General Council can > cancell the charter. The rules can be found at: > > THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: > http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:19:34 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge David Green wrote: > I tooo would like more info on those > 2 documents. London correspondent > who sent me transcriptions emails > that the Mr Nereshirmer letter is > in E Greenwalt's book on Mrs > Tingley & the W Judge letter is from > "O E Library Critic"-----Novem 1932. Thank you, I can take it from there. > What does O E mean in the title of this > journal? Oriental Esoteric > I have neither item but will try > to borrow copies or get photocopies. Maybe > someone else knows more details? JHE's > latest post raises a question-------Why > are Theosophists so secretive & clickish? Why are the Masons so secretive and cliquish? For that matter, why is any private or secretive Fraternal Organization secretive and cliquish? Perhaps it is because they have secrets and that fraternities are cliquish? > Today after classes I waded thru Judge > chaper in Cunningham Press "Theosophical > Movement" & found (pp 267) that "Rajah" > was "occult designation of Judge." Which Judge? > Who > are the editors of this history? Which edition, the 1925 or the 1950 version? JHE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:38:37 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > Bart, I have read through the International Bylaws and I'm unable to find where it > specifically requires a section's bylaws to incorporate language identifying their > allegiance to Adyar. I would think it would be in section 37, Rules for Lodges and > National Societies, but I don't see it here either. Please tell me where you find > this requirement in the bylaws. It's implied, by the power of the President over charters. If the section does not recognize Adyar, then that power is not there, and therefore they are in opposition to the International By-laws: 34. President grants, refuses Charters The President shall have authority to grant or refuse applications for Charters, which if issued, must bear his signature and that of the Secretary, and the Seal of the Society, and be recorded at the Headquarters of the Society. 35 Formation of a Section (b) Upon the application of seven or more chartered Lodges (Branches) in areas which are territorially adjacent and in which there are not sufficient Lodges (Branches) for each national group to form a National Society, the President shall have authority at his discretion to issue (and to cancel) a Charter constituting such Lodges (Branches) into a Section. The Charter shall confer the same powers as one issued to a National Society. In all respects the rules applying to National Societies shall apply to any group of Lodges (Branches) holding a Charter under this rule. 37. Rules or Lodges and National Societies Each Lodge (Branch) and National Society shall have the power to make its own Rules which shall not be incompatible with the Rules of the National Society to which the Lodge (Branch) belongs or with the Rules of The Theosophical Society. All Rules of Lodges (Branches) and National Societies and amendments thereto shall be submitted for approval within thirty days of their adoption as follows : (b) In the case of a National Society, or of a Lodge (Branch) not situated within the territory of a National Society, or of a Lodge directly attached to Adyar under Rule 31 (c) all such Rules or amendments thereto shall be submitted directly to the international President, and shall be put into force if approval has not been refused within nine months of acknowledgement of their receipt. If by a change made in a Rule of The Theosophical Society, any Rule of a National Society, which at its inception was not incompatible with the Rules of The Theosophical Society, ceases to be compatible, such a Rule of the National Society shall cease to be valid and shall be amended so as to be in consonance with the Rules of The Theosophical Society. If by a change made in a Rule of a National Society, any Rule of a Lodge (Branch) which at its inception was not incompatible with the Rules of the National Society, ceases to be compatible, such a Rule of the Lodge (Branch) shall cease to be valid and shall be amended so as to be in consonance with the Rules of the National Society. 43. National Societies: Fees to Adyar (a) Each National Society shall pay into the General Treasury fifteen per cent of the total amount of fees payable by members to the Section and shall remit the same to the Treasurer at Adyar on or before the first day of March of the current year, and the financial year of the Society shall close on 31st March. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:54:29 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Jerry: I wrote from the memory and did not check the Rules. It is quite likely that the formality of the General Council approval seem to take place before such action is taken. may be some one else may be able to throw some light on this. Also it may be a good idea to get hold of a copy of the current Rules. mkr At 06:07 PM 2/18/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Doss, I've gone through the International Bylaws and don't see where the >International President requires the approval of the General Council to cancel a >charter. I find at rule 36a: > > All charters of National Societies or Lodges (Branches) and all Diplomas >(Certificates) > of membership derive their authority from the President, acting as Executive >Officer > of the General Council of the Society, and may be cancelled by the same >authority. > >JHE > >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> The International President with the approval of the General Council can >> cancell the charter. The rules can be found at: >> >> THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >> http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >> > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:56:58 -0800 From: "Martin Leiderman" Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? Dear Govert, you ask: > Dear Martin, > Did you ever find anything sinister about NA? And what kind of activities > were/are they organizing from which the TS could learn? > Govert Well I do want to write a book about it. I have spent 7/8 years in the NA (Venezuela and USA). I have seen and participated in many activities in South America and Europe (Spain and France). I belonged to that Inner Circle of the "H" (Only another Acropolitan can understand this). I like many things of them specially their activities with youthful energy, their dedication, their focus on their ideals. The TSA (Adyar and America) is not focus because our leaders belong to too many organizations that require a lot of energy, so our leaders spread thinly in all of them. Some things I did not like, several already mention in this list. Theyr differ from my personal philosophy of life, and the Path to its Realization. Let me know if thw above does it for you, if not let spend time together at Olcott, as always to talk more about it (between some Krishnamurtian discussions). Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:00:30 -0600 From: "Govert Schuller Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? Dear Martin, Thanks for your answer, but, sorry, it will not do, my friend. My curiosity is going full gear and I like to know more. The only source so far on NA are the 'left wing hard core skeptical articles collected by this Dutch foundation SIMPOS and NA's own website, which I thought contained a lot of interesting esoteric stuff. Nobody reacted yet to my question about this theosophical brochure warning against NA. (Who has it and can send me a copy?) Some more articles have recently been added to SIMPOS about NA, because a little controversy developed recently, when a conference, organized by a Protestant university in Amsterdam about sects and cults etc., had someone invited to present a paper about NA. The women in question apparently was a member of NA, so when Tolleneare (who wrote an academic study about the influence of theosophists on early progressive movements in Indonesia and Asia between the two World Wars) made a stink about that, she was disbarred from presenting her paper. An article in a Dutch left wing magazine now attacks the researchers for being too cosy with their subject and for defending them from the indefensible like harboring extreme right wing ideologies. They specially attacked Introvigne (spelling?), the specialist in esoteric groups and history, for being allied with some sinister right wing Catholic organizations. Because these left wingers always make allegations of that sort against any esoteric group it is hard to determine whether they are misreading these groups and are just prejudiced, like in the case with their hostility against theosophy, or do they really have uncovered some sinister facts, which would give their allegations some substance? I can understand that if the second possibility might be the case with the NA that you would be reluctant to talk about that, though you say you want to write a book about them, implying a full disclosure of what you know. So my question is: What do you know about their political viewpoints and how are they derived from which esoteric philosophy? >From: "Martin Leiderman" >Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:14 AM >Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? >Dear Govert, you ask: >> Dear Martin, >> Did you ever find anything sinister about NA? And what kind of activities >> were/are they organizing from which the TS could learn? >> Govert > >Well I do want to write a book about it. >I have spent 7/8 years in the NA (Venezuela and USA). I have seen and >participated in many activities in South America and Europe (Spain and >France). I belonged to that Inner Circle of the "H" (Only another >Acropolitan can understand this). I like many things of them specially >their activities with youthful energy, their dedication, their focus on >their ideals. >The TSA (Adyar and America) is not focus because our leaders belong to >too many organizations that require a lot of energy, so our leaders >spread thinly in all of them. > >Some things I did not like, several already mention in this list. Theyr >differ from my personal philosophy of life, and the Path to its >Realization. > >Let me know if thw above does it for you, if not let spend time together >at Olcott, as always to talk more about it (between some Krishnamurtian >discussions). > >Martin > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:04:41 GMT From: "Kazimir Majorinc" Subject: Theos. Soc. Reference about New Acropolis Dear theosophists, Relations between International Theosophical Society (TS) and New Acropolis (NA) present very interesting part of the exciting and controversal history of the modern theosophical movements. I found this reference (translation: unknown->Croatian->English). H. van der Hecht (vice-president of Federation of TS in Europe), To all general secretars of TS in Europe. Brilliant imitation of TS ... but danger trap: 'New Acropolis', April/May 1984. >From that reference, cited from [1], with same translation: '...what is connected with ambitions of the organization to gain political strenght with black uniforms and nazist salutations... It is requested from the members not to be friends with other people.. some members of NA may be trained and married with purpose ... It is obvious that ex members of NA are frightened. Members of NA tries to stop them in other activities. ' This is just a small part of the part of the letter published in Grakalic's book. I could translate whole part, but I'm sure some of you have, or is able to find the source. Eldon B Tucker , great thanks for Trampuz's letter. Also, it will be nice if some members of ex-members of NA from this list would like to write more of their impressions, especially about split in the NA. If some of you know about this -non public- teachings of NA, it will be nice to inform us. Reference [1] Grakalic, M., Spritualities of the New Age, Arkadia, Zagreb 1994. Henx for yor attention, ______________________________________________________________ Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:35:44 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:what is the New Acropolis? Dear Martin: As soon as you are able to write a book, you may want to consider publishing it on the Internet so that everyone can have access to it. mkr At 10:56 PM 2/18/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Dear Govert, you ask: >> Dear Martin, >> Did you ever find anything sinister about NA? And what kind of activities >> were/are they organizing from which the TS could learn? >> Govert > >Well I do want to write a book about it. >I have spent 7/8 years in the NA (Venezuela and USA). I have seen and >participated in many activities in South America and Europe (Spain and >France). I belonged to that Inner Circle of the "H" (Only another >Acropolitan can understand this). I like many things of them specially >their activities with youthful energy, their dedication, their focus on >their ideals. >The TSA (Adyar and America) is not focus because our leaders belong to >too many organizations that require a lot of energy, so our leaders >spread thinly in all of them. > >Some things I did not like, several already mention in this list. Theyr >differ from my personal philosophy of life, and the Path to its >Realization. > >Let me know if thw above does it for you, if not let spend time together >at Olcott, as always to talk more about it (between some Krishnamurtian >discussions). > >Martin > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:48:36 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: Cults etc. Many of us are interested to know about NA. One question that arises in my mind was if anyone knows of any problems that NA or its active members had with any Government in any country? Several decades ago, a friend of mine who was a TS member got involved with another group in India which later became active in several countries. This group is headquartered in India. The group had run into problems in several countries around the world over a period of time. Almost three decades ago, when this member friend got involved and visited the city in which I live, one of our members who was in the state intelligence told some of us that they were tracking this organization because of its suspected criminal activities. It was about two decades later that problems in various countries started showing up. So if any group had troubles in more than one country, then it is worth careful exploration. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:36:07 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge JHE scolds me for not giving sources for documents but he writes about Rajah & does not give sources. Please share them. > >Dear David Green, > >I must say that I find this publication of ES documents and edited >letters without naming their source or giving them context disturbing. >As interesting as the Neresheimer letter is, you do not tell us to whom >the letter was written, nor do we know where the original resides. >These are important details in order to give the letter authenticity and >context. I'm also reluctant to comment on this letter because the >subject concerns occult matters that have been up to this time protected >by the Judge/Point Loma/Pasadena tradition Theosophists and are not >discussed--certainly not on a public forum like this. But, in order to >stay the confusion created by this annotated and context less letter, I >think that this much ought to be said: I believe that the annotator's >square bracketed identification of the Rajah with Judge is incorrect, or >at least very misleading. The Raja or "luminous youth" was the name of >an oil painting that Judge made of a young man. Little is known about >this portrait except that it was supposed to be of a person of high >occult status who was connected with Judge. After Judge's death Tingley >kept this painting in her home behind a curtain that was kept closed >when visitors were present. She used the painting for occult purposes. >You are of course free to attach whatever meaning to this that makes you >happy, but keep in mind that she did not discuss the painting or what >use she made of it with others. She also eventually had the painting >destroyed. I leave the meaning of all of this to your intuition. > >Regarding the EST communication, I have no record of such a >communication going out to the ES members on that date, or any other >date that year, and I believe that my file is fairly complete for that >period. I would be very interested in knowing the date of the O.E. >Library Critic from which this circular was supposed to have been >taken. Also, EST circulars sent out by Judge around that time bore a >London (not New York) address, because Judge was residing in London at >that time. I'm not questioning the existence of the message, but only >complaining that when you present documents on the net in this way, you >make it impossible for the readers to confirm and put them into an >historical context, and therefore to intelligently comment upon them. > >So please, now that you have published these documents, would you please >give us complete information about them, so that we will be able to make >our own evaluations. > >Thank you >JHE > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:09:32 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge JHE wrote::::::::::::::: >I'm also reluctant to comment on this letter because the >subject concerns occult matters that have been up to this time >protected >by the Judge/Point Loma/Pasadena tradition Theosophists and are not >discussed--certainly not on a public forum like this. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Why is JHE reluctant to comment on this public forum about material that has been public for many decades? Who are these Judge/Point Loma/ Pasadena tradition theosophists? What groups & wellknown persons? What is so occult about the contents of these papers on W Judge, Mrs Blavatsky and Mrs Tingley? I've firmly decided to write thesis on W Judge. All this controvery makes for interesting topic & socalled occult nature of certain episodes in W Judge's life demands IMHO further inquiry & study. I ask theosophists who are willing to share relevant matter to email me & let me know what they have. I promise not to reveal names if correspondents want to remain annymous. How can I contact Mr Eklund, the collector of W Judge's writings? I can't find his old postings. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:01:37 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Frozen Babies There are a number of theosophical issues that arise from the following real-world situation. It provides us with much to think about. Just mentioning the astrological slant ... Is the astrological chart of the child the true chart? Should the time be based upon when the embryo would have been born, if not frozen for seven years? Because there's a different astrological chart, did the parents force a personality change on their future child -- or did the initial child "die" when the embryo was frozen and a new, different in-coming soul animate the form when thawed out and revitalized? -- Eldon ---- TARZANA, Calif. (AP) -- An embryo kept on ice for seven and a half years has developed into a healthy baby boy -- apparently the world's oldest newborn. The child was delivered by Caesarean section Monday afternoon at Encino-Tarzana Regional Medical Center. He weighed 8 pounds, 15 ounces and was 21 inches long, according to a statement from the hospital. Kara Welter, a hospital spokeswoman, said the infertility doctor, obstetrician and pediatrician present for the birth pronounced the baby "very healthy." The parents are from the San Fernando Valley but the names of the child, his 44-year-old mother and 54-year-old father were being withheld to protect their privacy, the hospital said. The embryo was frozen in 1989 after the couple underwent infertility treatment at a different facility. The parents, who had another boy from the previous treatment, forgot about the frozen embryo until last year when they received a letter asking what they wanted to do with it. They decided to have another child, and doctors implanted the embryo in the mother. Vermesh, the infertility specialist who performed the in vitro fertilization that created the embryo, said the parents understood the risks involved in implanting an embryo frozen for so many years. "They are a very intelligent couple. They understand the risks. They understand the situation very well," said Vermesh, head of the Center for Human Reproduction in Tarzana. "They understand that despite all the testing that we performed during the pregnancy, there is no complete assurance of the complete well-being of the baby until the baby is born." Sonya Forster, a spokeswoman for the Centers for Human Reproduction in Chicago, a national chain of infertility centers, said a search of the medical literature indicated that the baby was a product of the oldest-known frozen embryo. She said another embryo was implanted after 5 years of being frozen, but there was no indication whether it resulted in a live birth. Welter said the doctors told her that if an older frozen embryo has been successfully implanted, "no one has published any studies and they haven't let anybody know." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 04:59:50 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Feb 19th 1998 Dear Jerry and David: I endorse Jerry's request for references, as authentication would be needed. I would also like to see those posted for us all to use. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 05:07:11 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: and ECSTASY Feb 19th 1998 Dear Keith: For combinations of truth and beauty, the old Zoroastrian invocation which Parsees are to use regularly says: Good thoughts --- Good words --- Good Deeds Those are the true guides of man in truth and in beauty. To which sincerity and honesty may be added -- and that implies becoming WISE. Best wishes Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:04:49 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication > Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > > Bart, I have read through the International Bylaws and I'm unable to find where it > > specifically requires a section's bylaws to incorporate language identifying their > > allegiance to Adyar. I would think it would be in section 37, Rules for Lodges and > > National Societies, but I don't see it here either. Please tell me where you find > > this requirement in the bylaws. > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > It's implied, by the power of the President over charters. If the section does not > recognize Adyar, then that power is not there, and therefore they are in opposition to > the International By-laws: > Bart, the Canadian Section did recognize Adyar. It is true that they were compelled to change their bylaws to be in compliance with Canadian national law. But the Canadian Section continued to honor all of the rules not expressly outlawed by their own country. For instance, If they had violated rule 43 (That each Section pays 15% of member's fees to Adyar), then I would say that Adyar had grounds for expelling them. However, this was not the case. The Canadian Section continued to pay tribute to and recognize Adyar in every way the Canadian government permitted them. JHE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:48:38 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Doss, the point I'm trying to make is that a vote is not required according to the rules in effect at the time of the expulsion. If you have different information then please share it with us. In light of the rules, it seems to be a moot point whether the discussion ended in a formal vote or an unanimous informal nod of approval. Also, there was no representative of the Canadian Section present at the meeting to present their side of the issue, nor were the officials of the Canadian Section given any notice that the question of expelling the Canadian Section would be considered. JHE M K Ramadoss wrote: > Jerry: I wrote from the memory and did not check the Rules. It is quite > likely that the formality of the General Council approval seem to take > place before such action is taken. may be some one else may be able to > throw some light on this. Also it may be a good idea to get hold of a copy > of the current Rules. > > mkr > > At 06:07 PM 2/18/1998 -0800, you wrote: > >Doss, I've gone through the International Bylaws and don't see where the > >International President requires the approval of the General Council to > cancel a > >charter. I find at rule 36a: > > > > All charters of National Societies or Lodges (Branches) and all Diplomas > >(Certificates) > > of membership derive their authority from the President, acting as > Executive > >Officer > > of the General Council of the Society, and may be cancelled by the same > >authority. > > > >JHE > > > > > >M K Ramadoss wrote: > > > >> The International President with the approval of the General Council can > >> cancell the charter. The rules can be found at: > >> > >> THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: > >> http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:49:47 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: Don't-take-yourself-too-seriously-lesson Sometimes our ability to maintain harmony is tested, right? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:07:30 EST From: "Visanu Sirish" Subject: Re:Frozen Babies In a message dated 98-02-19 12:23:05 EST, you write: << Should the time be based upon when the embryo would have been born, if not frozen for seven years? >> The question I guess is when does the Reincarnating Aego (via the Monad) attaches itself to the embryo? Western astrologers usually chart the birth at the moment the child emerges from the womb. Someone once told me that Eastern astrologers chart the birth at conception ( which, to me, would be a more difficult thing to do). Interesting questions and I have no answers. Maybe someone else has. Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:57:20 EST From: "Visanu Sirish" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication In a message dated 98-02-18 23:48:55 EST, you write: << All Rules of Lodges (Branches) and National Societies and amendments thereto shall be submitted for approval >> (to Adyar) If the By-Laws and Rules of individual Lodges and National Societies have to be approved by Adyar, then this suggests to me there is at least a de facto allegiance to Adyar by the various Sections. This being so, to have that de facto allegiance reiterated or stated specifically in a section's bylaws would be somewhat redundant since the allegiance is already implied. My two cents. Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:23:13 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > Feb 19th 1998 > > Dear Jerry and David: > > I endorse Jerry's request for references, as authentication > would be needed. > > I would also like to see those posted for us all to use. > Dallas D Tenbroeck----- Do you suspect authenticity of letters? What do you need about letters that'll convince you? Wed I posted on theos-talk@theosophy. com the source citations ----E Greenwalt's book on Mrs Tingley & "Library Critic" Novem 1932. London corresp emails this pm that E Neresheimer letter was to A Cleather & is in Point Loma archives. W Judge letter also in Point Loma archives. She's sent another transcription but can't provide more for 2 weeks for she's leaving, vacation to Amsterdam. I'm requesting "Lib Critic" issue & E Greenwalt's book. I'll post more when they arrive. Also another email corresp writes today that there is Point Loma Pubs in San Diego CA & Theos Soc Pasadena CA. Do you have their email addresses? I'll email them to verify if their institutions possess letters & mention that you want assurance of letters authenticity. You should email them tooo. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:54:16 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: Re:Don't-take-yourself-too-seriously-lesson Somehow the body of this message didn't make it through, trying again: Bjorn Roxendal wrote: > > Sometimes our ability to maintain harmony is tested, right? The following is an ad from a real-life newspaper which appeared four days in a row - the last three hopelessly trying to correct the first day's mistake. MONDAY: For sale: R.D. Jones has one sewing machine for sale. Phone 948-0707 after 7 P.M. and ask for Mrs. Kelly who lives with him cheap. TUESDAY Notice: We regret having erred In R.D. Jones' ad yesterday. It should have read "One sewing machine for sale cheap. Phone 948-0707 and ask for Mrs. Kelly, who lives with him after 7 P.M." WEDNESDAY Notice: R.D. Jones has informed us that he has received several annoying telephone calls because of the error we made in the classified ad yesterday. The ad stands correct as follows: "For sale R.D. Jones has one sewing machine for sale. Cheap. Phone 948-0707 after 7 P.M. and ask for Mrs. Kelly who loves with him." THURSDAY Notice: I, R.D. Jones, have no sewing machine for sale. I smashed it. Don't call 948-0707 as I have had the phone disconnected. I have not been carrying on with Mrs. Kelly. Until yesterday she was my housekeeper but she quit! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:09:20 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Exactly, and since the Canadian Section also continued to pay their 15% tribute to Adyar, and continued to advertise themselves in the Quest magazine as part of Adyar, the grounds upon which they were expelled becomes very shaky. jhe Megabeet@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-02-18 23:48:55 EST, you write: > > << All Rules of Lodges (Branches) and National Societies and > amendments thereto shall be submitted for approval >> (to Adyar) > > If the By-Laws and Rules of individual Lodges and National Societies have to > be approved by Adyar, then this suggests to me there is at least a de facto > allegiance to Adyar by the various Sections. This being so, to have that de > facto allegiance reiterated or stated specifically in a section's bylaws would > be somewhat redundant since the allegiance is already implied. > > My two cents. > Lmhem111 > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:52:58 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge David Green wrote: > JHE scolds me for not > giving sources for documents > but he writes about Rajah & > does not give sources. > Please share them. > Dear David, I was hardly scolding you, only asking you to give references to documents you post so that they can be checked. Regarding the Rajah, I was not posting a document. As for giving references, I'm afraid that you did not read my message carefully enough. I said that this subject touches on Judge/Point Loma/Pasadena tradition not discussed among the general public. I brought up the matter for two reasons: 1) to offset the damage you were creating by publishing the material out of context. 2) to try to get you to realize that there is more behind these documents that you reproduce without care than you are able to surmise from the text. I think you are also missing the broader message that I have been trying to get across to you in a subtle way. So I'll be more plain: I think that publishing documents out of context for the purpose of having others do your research and explain them to you is an unfair and improper use of an e-mail discussion group, and of the intellectual resources of those who might be able to help you. If you were sharing research you had done, then it would be different. In that case, you might indeed post a document, but it would include what research YOU have done on it and YOUR conclusions concerning it. Such a post would open up a discussion that would perhaps bring to light new insights, and perhaps even new material that would throw further light on the subject. In this case, you might have waited to find the Nov. 1932 O.E. Library Critic and Greenwalt's book; read the commentary that came with them, and the context which they were presented. From there, you might follow-up by tracking down other documents and commentaries related to these. Then you will have these documents in context with other documents and you will have commentaries from more than one point of view. THEN, you will be in a position to have a discussion with others who have done similar research who also have points of view. JHE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:48:53 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Don't-take-yourself-too-seriously-lesson Thank you Bjorn, you made my day. :-))) Bjorn Roxendal wrote: > Somehow the body of this message didn't make it through, trying again: > > Bjorn Roxendal wrote: > > > > Sometimes our ability to maintain harmony is tested, right? > > The following is an ad from a real-life newspaper which appeared > four days in a row - the last three hopelessly trying to correct > the first day's mistake. > > MONDAY: > For sale: R.D. Jones has one sewing machine for sale. Phone 948-0707 > after 7 P.M. and ask for Mrs. Kelly who lives with him cheap. > > TUESDAY Notice: > We regret having erred In R.D. Jones' ad yesterday. It should have > read "One sewing machine for sale cheap. Phone 948-0707 and ask > for Mrs. Kelly, who lives with him after 7 P.M." > > WEDNESDAY Notice: > R.D. Jones has informed us that he has received several annoying > telephone calls because of the error we made in the classified > ad yesterday. The ad stands correct as follows: "For sale R.D. > Jones has one sewing machine for sale. Cheap. Phone 948-0707 > after 7 P.M. and ask for Mrs. Kelly who loves with him." > > THURSDAY Notice: > I, R.D. Jones, have no sewing machine for sale. I smashed it. > Don't call 948-0707 as I have had the phone disconnected. > I have not been carrying on with Mrs. Kelly. Until yesterday > she was my housekeeper but she quit! > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:44:38 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge --------------D5E10C0A185DB8D467854E45 Dear Dallas, Thanks for your patience. The reference comes from a White Lotus Day address Besant gave in 1909 (not 1906, sorry), where Judge makes peace in his after death existence with Besant and is again working for the T.M. and T.S. The full text of the address can be found in Besant's The Changing World, Theosophical Book Concern, Chicago, 1910. I believe that the book is out of print but not that hard to find. The passage below comes from page 285, where Besant is talking about past workers for Theosophy who fell away: Take that great man amongst us round whom raged the last great struggle, the one before the struggle which is now nearing its close--W.Q. Judge--one of the greatest and noblest workers in our movement, even though in the last days of his life made the great rent in the Theosophical Society which cost us for the time pretty well the whole Society in America. He again, winning clearer vision on the other side after something of difficulty and something of struggle (for the man was strong, and was not easy to move or change even when the physical body had been cast away), he after a while worked his way through the mistake that had been made, and has again thrown his life force, his enormous energy into the Movement of which the outer partial manifestation here is the Theosophical Society, and into that Theosophical Society also. jhe Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Feb 17th 1998 > > Dear Jerry: > > Would it be possible to give a page and source reference to the > statement made by A. Besant's 1906 London lecture in which she > speaks of Judge as having made peace with HPB and cooperating > with her on fresh plans for the TS ? > > Sounds extraordinary -- and I have not seen this yet anywhere > else. do help if you have the reference available. > > Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:01:23 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > Bart, the Canadian Section did recognize Adyar. It is true that they were compelled to > change their bylaws to be in compliance with Canadian national law. But the Canadian > Section continued to honor all of the rules not expressly outlawed by their own country. > For instance, If they had violated rule 43 (That each Section pays 15% of member's fees to > Adyar), then I would say that Adyar had grounds for expelling them. However, this was not > the case. The Canadian Section continued to pay tribute to and recognize Adyar in every > way the Canadian government permitted them. As I have already said that I disagreed with Adyar's actions, I am not going to go very far to defend them. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:35:12 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: W.Q. Judge Feb 19th 1998 Dear David G: Re: Wm. Q. Judge, [ Born: 1851 - Died: 1896 ] Founder and Vice-President of the Theosophical Society, General Secretary, American Section T S (1880 - 1895 ) President, THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN AMERICA ( 1895 - 1896 ) All the material about Judge will be found in PATH Magazine 12 vols 1886-1897. One has to go through it very carefully. His articles and notes are of great help. Additionally you will find more about him in a book: LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME (Theosophy Company, 245 W. 33rd St., Los Angeles, Ca., 90007 -- Phone: (213) 748-7244. Mr.Judge wrote many articles, and they have been collected in 2 volumes. In addition some books: AN EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY 32 pp. ECHOES FROM THE ORIENT 58 pp. THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY 178 pp. The BHAGAVAD GITA (translation) 130 pp. NOTES ON THE B. GITA 237 PP. (all published by T. Co.) He was General Secretary for the American Section T S from 1880-1895 and during the period 1887 - 1895 he annually published Reports after the annual convention of the American Section T S, usually held at the end of April each year. These annual Reports give a view of the work done to promote Theosophy in America during that time. His close friend Jasper Niemand ( Julia Campbel Ver Planck, later Mrs. A. Keightley) published in the IRISH THEOSOPHIST some brief biographical notes towards the end of his life March 21st 1896. He was then 45 years old. He contacted Mme. Blavatsky in 1874 and was one of the Founding members of the T S in New York in 1875 -- he was then appointed Counsel for the new society. Sven Eek and Boris de Zircov published a slim biography (96 pp. -- TPH, Wheaton) on W.Q.Judge embodying the Jasper Niemand material, eulogies from his close associates, some samples of his article writings, and extracts of important letters that HPB sent to or about him, etc... Some more material on Mr. Judge will be found in BLAVATSKY COMPLETE WORKS is several of the volumes. Information about his life and his work is also included in the 2 volumes THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875 - 1925 E. P. Dutton, N.Y. THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875 - 1950 Cunningham Press, L.A. The first is now rare and is out of print. The 2nd is available through T. Co. Both are based entirely upon documentary evidence. The Edmonton T.S. (Independent ) is currently working on a chronology covering the "Judge Case." There is very little to be known concerning his private life. His great work was the support, resuscitation, and promulgating of Theosophy. He was very close to HPB all his life and represented her in America as her trusted agent. Some of his letters to her and to others are reproduced by the Pasadena TUP, a department of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in a book entitled : PRACTICAL OCCULTISM. 310 pp. I hope this will help you Best wishes Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:54:22 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > > Bart, the Canadian Section did recognize Adyar. It is true that they were compelled to > > change their bylaws to be in compliance with Canadian national law. But the Canadian > > Section continued to honor all of the rules not expressly outlawed by their own country. > > For instance, If they had violated rule 43 (That each Section pays 15% of member's fees to > > Adyar), then I would say that Adyar had grounds for expelling them. However, this was not > > the case. The Canadian Section continued to pay tribute to and recognize Adyar in every > > way the Canadian government permitted them. > > As I have already said that I disagreed with Adyar's actions, I am not going to go very > far to defend them. > > Bart Lidofsky > "Not going to go very far to defend them"? If you disagree with Adyar's actions, then why do you defend them on this at all? JHE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:00:32 -0500 (EST) From: "John E Mead" Subject: Truth is higher than any religion/organization hi - probably much of the prior arguement can be restated in the term of mistrust. the members of the tsa do not trust the leadership of the tsa. one quick solution is to hire an independent CPA firm to receive (and mail) and count the ballots in all elections. If Wheaton agrees to this simple rule, then most arguements regarding democratic control evaporate. how much easier can it be said? I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. why ? peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:59:24 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re:Frozen Babies >The question I guess is when does the Reincarnating Aego (via the Monad) >attaches itself to the embryo? Western astrologers usually chart the birth at >the moment the child emerges from the womb. Someone once told me that Eastern >astrologers chart the birth at conception ( which, to me, would be a more >difficult thing to do). Interesting questions and I have no answers. Maybe >someone else has. > >Lmhem111 According to Tibetan Buddhism, it is at conception. Actually it makes a lot of sense. Everything physical is an expression of something higher or more subtle. The physical body is an expression of the mind and emotions (mental and astral bodies) and so in order for any physical expression to occur there must first be a mental-astral counterpart. So everything I have learned from studying theosophy and occultism suggests to me that it begins at conception. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:58:03 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re: Theos mundo y algo mas.... At 10:56 PM 2/18/98 -0800, you wrote: (Parte de la discusi=F3n seguida en theos-talk acerca de serios problemas en la seccion de la TS Yugoslava) >Dear Govert, you ask: >> Dear Martin, >> Did you ever find anything sinister about NA? And what kind of activities >> were/are they organizing from which the TS could learn? >> Govert > >Well I do want to write a book about it. >I have spent 7/8 years in the NA (Venezuela and USA). I have seen and >participated in many activities in South America and Europe (Spain and >France). I belonged to that Inner Circle of the "H" (Only another >Acropolitan can understand this). I like many things of them specially >their activities with youthful energy, their dedication, their focus on >their ideals.=20 >The TSA (Adyar and America) is not focus because our leaders belong to >too many organizations that require a lot of energy, so our leaders >spread thinly in all of them.=20 > >Some things I did not like, several already mention in this list. Theyr >differ from my personal philosophy of life, and the Path to its >Realization. > >Let me know if thw above does it for you, if not let spend time together >at Olcott, as always to talk more about it (between some Krishnamurtian >discussions). > >Martin > Creo que la mayoria aqui sabemos espa=F1ol, asi que debemos saber de que est= a hablando Martin en esta cartita. Es interesante la discusion que se esta siguiendo en la lista de theos-world acerca de los serios problemas en la seccion Yugoslava. Me agrada saber que tu Martin sabes espa=F1ol, asi que tal vez podrias agregar un poco mas a lo que acabamos de comentar, en espa=F1ol para los que aqui ta= l vez no sepan. Lastima en verdad que gente como Ramadoss, Thoa, Eldon y otros no sepan espa=F1ol, porque asi esta lista seria mas fluida. Entonces empecemos a dinamizar esta lista!! (Aunque temo que ya casi no se lee....) Estrella P.D. Por cierto, no se si les di mi correo nuevo: gidondel@usa.net por favor, mandenme sus cartitas a esta nueva direcci=F3n. P.D.D. Continuemos por favor adem=E1s con la discusi=F3n acerca de "La voz d= el silencio" espero les haya llegado el theos-span digest #54 donde creo postee yo.gracias. =BFComentarios, criticas?? Estoy esperando sus deliciosos comentarios....gracias. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:30:54 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re:Re: Cults etc. At 07:48 AM 2/19/98 -0600, you wrote: > >So if any group had troubles in more than one country, then it is worth >careful exploration. > > mkr > Very interesting. some of you may want to check this link: (Unfortunately, is in spanish....maybe some friend of yours....) linux.uan.mx/~ssecretas although i do not know if this link has already moved.(Haven't check for a while) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:36:17 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re:Re: Cults etc. At 07:48 AM 2/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >So if any group had troubles in more than one country, then it is worth >careful exploration. > > mkr Some of you may want to check this link i found that talks about sects: linux.uan.mx/~ssecretas Unfortunately, it is in spanish. you can use the help of a friend who knows the language.... Is a very wierd link, the part that speaks about the dangerous sects is the most complete that i ever have read....some may want to check it out....Thanks Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:49:00 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re:Re: Theosophy Dear Jerry: =20 Apparently we all have preferences. But I would not call myself = qualified to judge as to the relative excellence of any one presentation = over another unless I had fully tested it. Then of course I give = references to back it up. No one quibbles over the stature or nature of = HPB. She was pivotal. WQj was her co-worker. Testimonials from HPB = are many and strong and can be easily adduced from the back pages of = LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME (ULT - Theosophy Company edition, p 276 et = seq.)=20 =20 I have no argument with this. =20 =20 =20 Judge worked to introduce Theosophy to as many people who wanted it, = right from the very beginning. HPB ( and the Masters) called him the = "Resuscitator of Theosophy in America." You can certainly say that the = work of WQJ was to introduce Theosophy to the masses -- and he then = pointed to HPB and to ISIS and the SD if they desired to proceed = further. =20 Correct. =20 =20 He was of the opinion that Theosophy was essentially a matter of = practice and the metaphysics and doctrines, while studied, ought to form = the basis for explaining the practical side. HPB offered the thesis = consistently that if there was to be any progress in true occultism it = was to be by the perfection of the moral channel in ones personal life.=20 =20 I don't know that I fully agree here. He did advocate the practice = of altruism and of helping others. However, I feel there is more to = theosophy than just this. One of my pet peeves with the TSs is that they say very little about practice. Perfecting = the "moral channel" is a necessary first step, I agree. But occultism has many steps, = and ethics is only the first. =20 =20 =20 As to his views on the "psychic side" of things being one-sided, I = cannot say as you do not give me a basis to know how or why you say = that. Check what he says in the OCEAN chapters 4, 5,6, 7, and 16, 17 = for continuity with what HPB says in the KEY as from pp. 52 - 60, 83 - = 226. (a longer reading) =20 Basically he says ad nauseum that psychism is always wrong and = always dangerous. This has led the entire Pasadena TS to be extremely fearful of any = kind of psychism or yoga practice (they were appalled at me for practicing Kundalini = Yoga, for example). HPB warns us, and rightly so. But she also practiced what she = preached. And she never said not to practice magic or to develop psychic abilities, = but only that we should develop ethics first. =20 =20 But while you and many might call these "basic" or "preliminary" I = find that most of us are not fully aware of the statements made there, = so as to be able to use them without reference to the texts. I know = that I have to refer back to them constantly. I also know from = practical and a many-yeared experience that they are one of the best = keys to understanding the S D. =20 =20 Please let me know if you can find anything at all of any real = substance that Judge taught or wrote that HPB did NOT say first. I can't. G de P = did so. It is my understanding of Judge that he did the best he could to teach = those few who were ready to understand, and for that I think he did a fine job. = But it is still all exoteric material. I suspect that he knew much more than he gave = out; certainly HPB did so, but then again she admitted to this. =20 =20 If we don't have the logic of Theosophy firmly in mind, from the = original Messengers, then we are not easily able to figure out the = details of the doctrines and metaphysics that give still greater depth = in understanding. =20 Agreed, but the vast majority of today's Theosophists mistake the = finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself. =20 I like the idea that Nature (the Universe) contains all. That we as = self-conscious beings (minds) are linked inseparably to the ABSOLUTE . = We are a part of IT, and therefore have all the potentials within = ourselves. But we are learning to access them, and we need all the help = we can secure, from our own minds, here and now, to every bit of help we = can get from any source that is not prejudiced or self-interested. =20 =20 Agreed. =20 Knowledge is the property of everyone. Wisdom comes from experience = in trying to apply that knowledge and in sharpening our memory so that = we do not repeat errors. =20 =20 Agreed. But my feeling is that the TSs have done a poor job in the = application dept. =20 =20 I would place for my self an indefinite goal of ever-progressing, = as, if I am immortal in essence (not in personality) then this immortal = individual that takes on body after body is the one which grows, and = when it reincarnates it takes less and less time for it to recapture the = memory of past lives. (and I do not mean the name, form and works of = those personalities, but, rather, the character, capacity, talents, and = hopes). =20 Agreed. =20 I have tried to read de Puruker starting from the basis I have = acquired from HPB and WQJ. And I found that I was trying to disentangle = his views from theirs. I noticed the difference and it was to me, = tedious. Well, what else can I say ? In some cases where his talks = were reported he starts out telling his audience that they cannot = possibly understand the metaphysics ... and frankly I dislike being = talked down to. If we are all immortals, then my "spirit and Buddhi" is = no less than the highest of the Mahatmas. The difference between my = "lowly" position on the ladder and Theirs -- is that they have mastered = their personality and I still have far to do that for mine ! Such = being the case I respect and revere Them -- all of them -- and hope = some day to be worthy of Their notice and assistance. In the meantime, = I try to help others. =20 No one fully masters the personality. Its all a matter of degree. = And I agree that we are all equal with no one better than anyone else. =20 What else can one do ? One has to start from the position Karma has = placed us in. =20 Absolutely. =20 thanks for the response -- hope I have made myself clear. = Best wishes as always, =20 = = Dallas =20 I don't think we have any real disagreement here. I simply like G de = P better. But I too learned a lot from Judge and thank him for it. =20 Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:40:01 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re: and ECSTASY At 05:07 AM 2/19/98 -0800, you wrote: >Feb 19th 1998 > >Dear Keith: > >For combinations of truth and beauty, the old Zoroastrian >invocation which Parsees are to use regularly says: > > Good thoughts --- Good words --- Good Deeds > >Those are the true guides of man in truth and in beauty. To >which sincerity and honesty may be added -- and that implies >becoming WISE. > > Best wishes >Dallas > I really loved this beautiful and short letter, Dallas. Sorry if i had offended you saying that you write too long.... maybe i've been very lazy.... Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:34:17 +1200 From: "Pat F" Subject: Re:Frozen Babies --------------8C80E54A3A5D6458AA4ACB88 Many astrologers I've talked to would rather think that the chart should be set for the first breath the child takes i.e. the first breath of life outside the womb. I think they associate this with the story of God giving Man the breath of life, and Man became "a living soul". Of course, this is probably not how the doctors who timed the birth see it. I am not sure myself. Yours, Pat From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:15:53 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > "Not going to go very far to defend them"? If you disagree with Adyar's actions, then why do > you defend them on this at all? I stated that they had the right to expel Canada, and that they should not have exercised the right. Someone asked me where in the bylaws the right existed, I pointed it out, I was told it was very flimsy, and I agreed. I apologize if my choice of phrasing offended you. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:23:32 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations wrote: > the members of the tsa do not trust the leadership > of the tsa. Certainly there are members of the TSA who do not trust the leadership, but your statement, even taken figuratively, implies a majority. Can you expand upon that? > I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct > question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, > could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members > of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. I don't believe I ever said that; if that was inferred from what I said, then it was inferred incorrectly. It is my belief that it would be necessary to convince them that they would not be walking into a lynch mob where every word they say would be twisted into unrecognizeability and then used against them, and that would be a difficult task. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:29:40 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Re:Truth..... >I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct >question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, >could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members >of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. > >why ? Not all of the people here on this discussion list are members of the TSA. Isn't it possible that having an authority and leadership figure from one group may offend some of the members of the discussion list who have chosen not to join the TSA? Even those of us who are members have some hesitation about entering "formal" talks with people who may or may not represent an "official" point of view. When we speak with these people at our headquarters we speak informally and many times don't even discuss issues related to work. It is very difficult to work for a group in a representative manner because our representatives do not have to respond to the wishes of the one or two people making demands on them. The TS has to continue to work for those silent members who don't expect or warrant representation by the one or two people who speak so loudly, but not for the group. When you ask for something as individual, you just seem selfish and unrealistic to me. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 03:21:08 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: An idea or oops Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had no business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything smelling like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. When you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. Thoa :) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:29:05 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:An idea or oops At 03:21 AM 2/20/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had no >business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In >fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything smelling >like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. When >you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten >off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. > >Thoa :) In many situations inputs from outsiders can help. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:42:39 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Re: Cults etc. Looks like it has moved. ...mkr At 06:30 PM 2/19/1998 -0800, you wrote: >At 07:48 AM 2/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >> >>So if any group had troubles in more than one country, then it is worth >>careful exploration. >> >> mkr >> >> > >Very interesting. some of you may want to check this link: (Unfortunately, >is in spanish....maybe some friend of yours....) > >linux.uan.mx/~ssecretas > >although i do not know if this link has already moved.(Haven't check for a >while) > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:25:03 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Frozen Babies At 11:34 AM 2/20/1998 +1200, you wrote: >>>> Many astrologers I've talked to would rather think that the chart should be set for the first breath the child takes i.e. the first breath of life outside the womb. I think they associate this with the story of God giving Man the breath of life, and Man became "a living soul". Of course, this is probably not how the doctors who timed the birth see it. I am not sure myself. Yours, Pat <<<<<<<< In the system of Astrology followed in India, the time when the head of the baby shows up is taken as the time of birth. There is also a fine tuning correction is made to the timing since only at certain point in time human birth can take place. Who knows which one is the correct time of birth. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:52:31 -0600 From: "Pam Giese" Subject: Re:An idea or oops Thoa writes: > Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had no > business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In > fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything smelling > like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. When > you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten > off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. I enjoyed your perspective on this issue and I think many of your comments are right on target. I've only been a member of TS for a year. My physical world contact with TS has been through the Wheaton group and frankly, if it wasn't for other TS contacts via this email list, I'd be dropping my membership at next renewal. My experience of TS via Wheaton is that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. Most events are geared to older participants who are content with the passive lecturer-audience style of communication. Most attendees are white, over 60, or generally lacking any broad-based grounding in occult, metaphysics, or cross-religious study. All this from a group that is centrally located in the high-tech Silicon Prairie of the Chicago metropolitan community --an area rich in cross-cultural diversity and sprouting many Hindu and Buddhist centers. I hesitated to respond before because I've only been a member a short time. Also, there's been a fair amont of flaming lately and I don't like providing energy to such embers. From conversations on this list I've become aware that there are active TS groups that are running rivers and not stagnant ponds. This list has helped me see a broader view of TS than the local center provides and I am thankful for that. Granted I usually just read, but take it as a compliment --some of you are just so clever and eloquent Pam pgiese@snd.softfarm.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:59:52 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Ella M. Judge and Theosophy In a conversation I had some years ago with some long time members in the ULT, I was told that Ella Judge apparently did not share her husband's enthusiasm for theosophy and at times vigorously opposed it. This made for an unhappy relationship and obviously created a heavy karmic burden for WQJ. In addition to the misery caused by this rift in belief and outlook, they lost a child. Sometime after Judge's demise, I was told that his widowed wife did a 180 degree on her feelings about theosophy. In fact she fully embraced it. The reason for this about face is unclear. However, she became something of a dynamic force within the movement, going about the country giving lectures at various lodges until her death in 1931. I think she aligned herself with the ULT but I'm not sure. Could someone give me more information on this? Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:49:48 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization At 12:23 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations wrote: > >> the members of the tsa do not trust the leadership >> of the tsa. > > Certainly there are members of the TSA who do not trust the >leadership, but your statement, even taken figuratively, implies a >majority. Can you expand upon that? > >> I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct >> question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, >> could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members >> of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. > > I don't believe I ever said that; if that was inferred from what I >said, then it was inferred incorrectly. It is my belief that it would be >necessary to convince them that they would not be walking into a lynch >mob where every word they say would be twisted into unrecognizeability >and then used against them, and that would be a difficult task. > > Bart Lidofsky When HPB launched Theosophy, she used the print medium of that day. She literally entered into a situation which was not very cozy to her point of view and philosophy. Internet is a very fast moving medium (24 hours a day, and not 8-5 and postal delay of days.) It is going to require a lot of courage, skill and talent to deal with so many here who are going to respond to any statement that anyone makes, which we see every day. Hopefully there may be some gentle and courages soul who may take on the task at some time in future. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:49:48 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization At 12:23 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations wrote: > >> the members of the tsa do not trust the leadership >> of the tsa. > > Certainly there are members of the TSA who do not trust the >leadership, but your statement, even taken figuratively, implies a >majority. Can you expand upon that? > >> I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct >> question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, >> could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members >> of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. > > I don't believe I ever said that; if that was inferred from what I >said, then it was inferred incorrectly. It is my belief that it would be >necessary to convince them that they would not be walking into a lynch >mob where every word they say would be twisted into unrecognizeability >and then used against them, and that would be a difficult task. > > Bart Lidofsky When HPB launched Theosophy, she used the print medium of that day. She literally entered into a situation which was not very cozy to her point of view and philosophy. Internet is a very fast moving medium (24 hours a day, and not 8-5 and postal delay of days.) It is going to require a lot of courage, skill and talent to deal with so many here who are going to respond to any statement that anyone makes, which we see every day. Hopefully there may be some gentle and courages soul who may take on the task at some time in future. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:42:47 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: An idea or oops Dear Pam: Your observations are very welcome. To many of us who have been around TS for some years input from new members like you is very refreshing. One has to look at what is happening today. Most of the leadership of TS in most countries are older ones many after having retired from a full time job. Also they belong to a different generation and who grew up in a different environment. Environment does have an effect. (We just saw the difference in attitudes between young and old in the recent town hall meeting at OSU where Clinton's top people tried to defend attacking Iraq). Age may contribute to street smartness and I wonder whether age is synonymous with Wisdom. When you look at the activities at Wheaton, do you see any "Younger Hostel" no. You see "Elder Hostel" being a success for past some years. May be the latter is bringing in the money and the former would be a money loser from a business standpoint. Your point about all being most attendees being white is well taken. In the last ten years only once that a single member of the Board of Directors mentioned in his statement when he ran for the office the need to do something to do something to attract others. I am also glad that you are a beneficiary of Internet. It is a medium that has such potential that we are yet to tap it. I think the leadership, yet to come to grips with Internet as an active tool of multi-way communication with members and others interested in Theosophy. Theosophy and TS are on very solid foundation and you are in good company. Feel free to post anything you want and we are all tuned in. mkr At 07:52 PM 2/20/1998 -0600, you wrote: >Thoa writes: >> Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had >no >> business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In >> fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything >smelling >> like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. >When >> you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten >> off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. > >I enjoyed your perspective on this issue and I think many of your comments >are right on target. I've only been a member of TS for a year. My >physical world contact with TS has been through the Wheaton group and >frankly, if it wasn't for other TS contacts via this email list, I'd be >dropping my membership at next renewal. My experience of TS via Wheaton is >that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a >number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. >Most events are geared to older participants who are content with the >passive lecturer-audience style of communication. Most attendees are >white, over 60, or generally lacking any broad-based grounding in occult, >metaphysics, or cross-religious study. All this from a group that is >centrally located >in the high-tech Silicon Prairie of the Chicago metropolitan community --an >area rich in cross-cultural diversity and sprouting many Hindu and Buddhist >centers. > >I hesitated to respond before because I've only been a member a short time. > Also, there's been a fair amont of flaming lately and I don't like >providing energy to such embers. From conversations on this list I've >become aware that there are active TS groups that are running rivers and >not stagnant ponds. This list has helped me see a broader view of TS than >the local center provides and I am thankful for that. Granted I usually >just read, but take it as a compliment --some of you are just so clever >and eloquent > >Pam >pgiese@snd.softfarm.com > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:17:30 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: How to have a happy marriage Want a successful marriage? Listen to your wife (Release at midnight EST) WASHINGTON20 (Reuters) - Men who want their marriages to succeed should just do what their wives suggest, psychologists said Friday. John Gottman, a psychologist at the University of Washington, and colleagues said advice to engage in ``active listening'' and other interactive ways to resolve differences may be on the wrong track. They said couples who tried to follow such trendy advice did not have fewer divorces. ``This was the biggest revelation we've had about how conflicts are best resolved in successful marriages,'' Gottman said in a statement. ``Our analysis suggested that active listening occurred very infrequently in marital conflict resolution and its use didn't predict marital success.'' Gottman's team followed 130 newlyweds for six years, tracking how they handled disagreement. Many tried the ``active listening'' model, which calls in part for each person to re-phrase what the other has said and to indicate they are listening with responses such as ``I hear what you are saying''. They compared these couples to couples followed in an older study in which successful marriages were followed for 13 years. They found the people who stayed together almost never used such listening techniques. Gottman said this was because ``active listening'' was unnatural. ``Asking that of couples is like requiring emotional gymnastics,'' he said. Instead, the marriages that seemed to work had one thing in common -- the husband was willing to be influenced by his wife. ``We found that only those newlywed men who are accepting of influence from their wives are winding up in happy, stable marriages,'' Gottman said. ``Getting husbands to share power with their wives by accepting some of the demands she makes is critical to helping to resolve conflict.'' The best predictors of divorce were what Gottman called the ''Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse -- criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:54:06 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Feb 19th 1998 Dear David: I do not suspect. The fact is that I sent the query before I read yours giving the sources. Thank you for that. I apologize for the mix-up. Also, thank you for the additional information. Salaam and peace ! Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:23:36 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Feb 19th 1998 Dear Jerry: Many thanks for the "source" for Mrs.Besant's statement about W.Q.J. = (1909 W L D Address) It sounds pretty back-handed to me. =20 I heard from Ernie Pelletier in Edmonton that he is again working on = bringing his file of chronological material on the "Judge Case" up to = date. Apparently he was swamped with work and unable to do much for a = couple of years. I had provided him with some material I had gathered = and filed. ------------------------------- May I repeat a question: A while back I mailed you a book (biographical) on Theodore L. Crombie = by Miss E. Beswick which I published when I managed International Book = House in Bombay around 1959/60 -- I want to know if you got it. I can = send another copy if you did not. All good wishes, = Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:13:20 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Bart, perhaps you are trying to say that they had the POWER, which they WRONGLY exercised in this case? If this is what your trying to say, then I agree. jhe Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > > "Not going to go very far to defend them"? If you disagree with Adyar's actions, then why do > > you defend them on this at all? > > I stated that they had the right to expel Canada, and that they should not have exercised the > right. Someone asked me where in the bylaws the right existed, I pointed it out, I was told it was > very flimsy, and I agreed. I apologize if my choice of phrasing offended you. > > Bart Lidofsky > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:02:01 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Frozen Babies --------------7A4C8AD02242810188AD298A Another idea I find appealing is setting the chart for the moment the cord is cut. By the rule of analogy and correspondence, this marks the moment the child becomes independent of the mother. jhe Pat F. wrote: > Many astrologers I've talked to would rather think that the chart > should be set for the first breath the child takes i.e. the first > breath of life outside the womb. I think they associate this with > the story of God giving Man the breath of life, and Man became "a > living soul". Of course, this is probably not how the doctors who > timed the birth see it. I am not sure myself. > > Yours, > > Pat From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:29:56 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization Bart, I don't believe that the scenario you describe here is possible. Once a statement is uploaded to the internet and goes to everyone's mailboxes, it cannot be taken back: nor can anyone alter what was written. Yes, one can misquote an uploaded statement, but the error can be easily demonstrated. In other words, unlike other forms of communication, this is a perfectly level playing field. No one can control the process. On second thought, perhaps this is why Wheaton is not willing to enter into a discussion. jhe Bart Lidofsky wrote: > John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations wrote: > > > I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct > > question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, > > could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members > > of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. > > I don't believe I ever said that; if that was inferred from what I > said, then it was inferred incorrectly. It is my belief that it would be > necessary to convince them that they would not be walking into a lynch > mob where every word they say would be twisted into unrecognizeability > and then used against them, and that would be a difficult task. > > Bart Lidofsky > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:23:46 -0500 From: "John E Mead" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 12:23 AM > > John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations wrote: > > > the members of the tsa do not trust the leadership > > of the tsa. > > Certainly there are members of the TSA who do not trust the > leadership, but your statement, even taken figuratively, implies a > majority. Can you expand upon that? > this has been my own personal experience. Most of the TSA members I know (and they are from the 'at-large' category) are very distrustful. A fuzzy guess would put the number at about 3 out of 4..... but that is a guess. > > I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct > > question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, > > could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members > > of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. > > I don't believe I ever said that; if that was inferred from what I > said, then it was inferred incorrectly. It is my belief that it would be > necessary to convince them that they would not be walking into a lynch > mob where every word they say would be twisted into unrecognizeability > and then used against them, and that would be a difficult task. > I guess I did word that poorly. you do not think they should be bothered.... (??) (due to perceptions of theirs (yours?) regarding the internet environment). Maybe if you asked them, they may agree to responding if the format was to their liking?? The problem is that total silence from them is very damaging (MHO) since it is so easily (mis)construed as arrogance, inconsideration, or even worse -- concealment of facts (just to name a few possible (mis)perceptions). oh well... i guess i must wait for some historian to sift through archives and write everyhing down in yet another book about TS internals. gee - maybe we could get them to do a "TS" Town-Hall meeting. We could get CNN to set one up!! :-) peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:51:39 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Ella M. Judge and Theosophy Yes, this is essentially correct, but the child was born and died while Judge was still alive. Ella Judge did tour with her husband (a wife's duty) but she did not believe in the organization. She was a Methodist if I recall correctly. After Judge died, she joined the ULT. In the parent Lodge ULT in Los Angeles, you will find on display in the pathfinder's library Judge's bow and arrow, donated by Mrs. Judge. jhe Lmhem111@aol.com wrote: > In a conversation I had some years ago with some long time members in the ULT, > I was told that Ella Judge apparently did not share her husband's enthusiasm > for theosophy and at times vigorously opposed it. This made for an unhappy > relationship and obviously created a heavy karmic burden for WQJ. In addition > to the misery caused by this rift in belief and outlook, they lost a child. > Sometime after Judge's demise, I was told that his widowed wife did a 180 > degree on her feelings about theosophy. In fact she fully embraced it. The > reason for this about face is unclear. However, she became something of a > dynamic force within the movement, going about the country giving lectures at > various lodges until her death in 1931. I think she aligned herself with the > ULT but I'm not sure. > > Could someone give me more information on this? > > Lmhem111 > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:26:42 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: How to have a happy marriage I'm not married, but I wholeheartedly agree with that! Listen well, ye men of the world! Thoa :o) Bjorn: >Want a successful marriage? Listen to your wife > > (Release at midnight EST) > WASHINGTON20 (Reuters) - Men who want their marriages to >succeed should just do what their wives suggest, psychologists >said Friday. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:31:08 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge --------------71F7945B822555A08C487D16 Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Feb 19th 1998 Dear Jerry: Many thanks for the "source" for > Mrs.Besant's statement about W.Q.J. (1909 W L D Address) It sounds > pretty back-handed to me. > > Yes, Mrs. Besant had a powerful rhetorical style. She was an adept at > making statements which one could only answer with opened mouth > silence. > I heard from Ernie Pelletier in Edmonton that he is again working on > bringing his file of chronological material on the "Judge Case" up to > date. Apparently he was swamped with work and unable to do much for a > couple of years. I had provided him with some material I had gathered > and filed. > > Yes, I've seen a drift of this. He has done an excellent job, and I > believe that the final product will be very valuable to future > researchers. Unfortunately, the documents at the Pasadena and Adyar > archives will not be included. > ------------------------------- May I repeat a question: A while back > I mailed you a book (biographical) on Theodore L. Crombie by Miss E. > Beswick which I published when I managed International Book House in > Bombay around 1959/60 -- I want to know if you got it. I can send > another copy if you did not. > > Yes, I received the book and thank you very much for it. I have read > through it on several occasions. It is especially helpful in my > inquiries into the Committee of 1400 campaign, which I'm still trying > to gather more information. > > Thanks for your help > Jerry From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:23:59 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: An idea or oops Hi Pam, You've been attending TS meetings for a year! Well, then, you have more fortitude than I have. We attended one meeting in San Francisco, and I felt like I was back in the Victorian era. This is not to do a disservice to the people. The people at the meeting were very nice. I try to not judge people by their age, but I did notice that there is only one other young person at the meeting. The meeting was supposed to be about relation to the X-Files. I thought, hey, a fail-safe and fun topic for a first meeting! But, nooooo. What I had a problem with was the rigid quality of the meeting. A bell was rung to start the meeting, one person read passages from various books (nothing related to the X-Files), we had a discussion, a bell was rung to start meditation, and then a bell was rung to stop the meditation. I felt like Pavlov's dog, having to respond to bells. And who can meditate during that time frame? The meeting was so rigid, no proper words could come naturally out of my mouth. I couldn't even ask, "Uh, what about the X-Files?" Lastly, someone ought to have sent in Gianni Versace to do the decor! With the environment and pictures of 19th century people, I was expecting an organ mysteriously playing in the corner. I did like their Buddha room, and the tons of theosophical books in their library. I agree with you regarding the weird contrast of the lodge and the metropolitan environment. San Francisco is a place of coffee houses and the birthplace of the Beatniks. We hang out with trendy artists and designers, some who are also musicians. We are easy with our speech and attitude. I can make crass jokes, and others will just flow with it. Some of the attitudes I've seen, that I don't like, on the theosophical lists are those of the generation of the stern parent: shame, shame, do as I say and not as I do, children should be seen and not heard, and institutional dogmatism. I have a good idea why most theosophists seem white and older. The attitude is rigid Victorian. People with a lively cultural heritage, e.g. African-Americans, Hispanics, would not be interested in such an environment. Maya Angelou would do a massive house redecorating if she was President of a lodge. I already mentioned several reasons why the young would not be interested. If it wasn't for my interest in theosophy and my appreciation of the fine minds of theosophists, I would have disassociate myself from t/Theosophy a long time ago. As always, have fun, Pam! Thoa :o) Pam: >I enjoyed your perspective on this issue and I think many of your comments >are right on target. I've only been a member of TS for a year. My >physical world contact with TS has been through the Wheaton group and >frankly, if it wasn't for other TS contacts via this email list, I'd be >dropping my membership at next renewal. My experience of TS via Wheaton is >that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a >number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. >Most events are geared to older participants who are content with the >passive lecturer-audience style of communication. Most attendees are >white, over 60, or generally lacking any broad-based grounding in occult, >metaphysics, or cross-religious study. All this from a group that is >centrally located >in the high-tech Silicon Prairie of the Chicago metropolitan community --an >area rich in cross-cultural diversity and sprouting many Hindu and Buddhist >centers. > >I hesitated to respond before because I've only been a member a short time. > Also, there's been a fair amont of flaming lately and I don't like >providing energy to such embers. From conversations on this list I've >become aware that there are active TS groups that are running rivers and >not stagnant ponds. This list has helped me see a broader view of TS than >the local center provides and I am thankful for that. Granted I usually >just read, but take it as a compliment --some of you are just so clever >and eloquent > >Pam >pgiese@snd.softfarm.com > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:58:51 EST From: "William Greer" Subject: Re:An idea or oops In a message dated 98-02-20 14:59:15 EST, Thoa writes: << You've been attending TS meetings for a year! Well, then, you have more fortitude than I have. We attended one meeting in San Francisco, and I felt like I was back in the Victorian era. This is not to do a disservice to the people. The people at the meeting were very nice. I try to not judge people by their age, but I did notice that there is only one other young person at the meeting. >> There are probably many whose experience of meetings is limited to those of just one lodge. Certainly one cannot evaluate the Society accurately on the basis of attending meetings at just one, or even a few, lodges. Our local groups are quite varied -- due largely to their autonomous nature, and to the idiosyncracies of the individuals who manage or otherwise strongly influence local operations. Of course, if one lodge is all that can be realistically visited, it will have an enormous and inevitable impact on the impressions that the visitor takes away. If possible, attendance at regional or national events can do much to balance one's perceptions. Otherwise, it will be very difficult to gain clarity and insight into the larger workings of the Society. --- Nathan Greer From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:27:04 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > Bart, perhaps you are trying to say that they had the POWER, which they WRONGLY exercised in this > case? If this is what your trying to say, then I agree. To be more precise, it was wrongly exercised IN MY OPINION. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:45:23 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization John E Mead wrote: > this has been my own personal experience. Most of the TSA > members I know (and they are from the 'at-large' category) are > very distrustful. A fuzzy guess would put the number at about > 3 out of 4..... but that is a guess. Thanks. > you do not think they should be bothered.... (??) > (due to perceptions of theirs (yours?) regarding the > internet environment). I have personally asked John Algeo and others why they don't participate on this list. Specifically, I wanted to recommend theos-talk to the membership of the TSA. However, based on my policy of not quoting anything that is not public record on this or your list, or, for that matter, the TSA list, I cannot give the reason, except to say that it was decidedly non-sinister. What is a matter of public record is that, in the first edition of THE THEOSOPHISTS GUIDE TO THE INTERNET, Theos-World magazine was recommended to the membership. > Maybe if you asked them, they may agree to responding if the format > was to their liking?? The problem is that total silence from them > is very damaging (MHO) since it is so easily (mis)construed as > arrogance, inconsideration, or even worse -- concealment of > facts (just to name a few possible (mis)perceptions). If it weren't for people like you, Paul Johnson, Eldon Tucker, etc., I would not be here either. The reason why I would not be is that there is a significant group, for whom anything I say is automatically wrong, and if it isn't wrong, they'll change my words into something that is. At least one message I received recently literally almost had me in tears. Luckily, I have a policy of never creating email when I am angry. > gee - maybe we could get them to do a "TS" Town-Hall meeting. We could > get CNN to set one up!! :-) I think that's a good idea. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:48:32 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > Bart, I don't believe that the scenario you describe here is possible. But John Mead did not quote me directly. What he stated was in fact an inference and not a quote. Both he and I have accepted some blame in the misunderstanding. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:11:18 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re:An idea or oops Thoa Tran wrote: > > Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had no > business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. Me neither,Thank God. In > fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything smelling > like politics. Why?? It's because of the pleasant odor?? :P I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. When > you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten > off. In Mexico, we have this figurate speech:"Never mess with Polithics, Religion or sports" You will never make pepole happy!! Just recent, the old figurate speech was like "In Mexico we can speak of everything in press-Tell this to Doss,heehe- except The Guadalupe Virgin, The president figure, and the Army" Not anymore! I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. > > Thoa :) > Good decision!! I'll also rather read Peanuts and other sunday cartoons. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:25:36 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re:Re: Cults etc. M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Looks like it has moved. ...mkr > Er,sorry....I'll better check that out. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:26:53 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: and ECSTASY Feb 20 1998 Dear Estrella: Yes, you are right I do write a lot -- but it is for trying to make what I say clear, and to also show how I got to my conclusions -- so a reader can follow. I also think that I may be wring, and I expect those who read to tell me so, or to say that there are other views -- I think I can profit from that, and I hope that my ideas are useful. I can be short, too. But then the expression does not help, does it ? Very often, in conversation we assume what the other is saying follows our way of thinking. We then answer briefly, and find out that we have said something quite separate -- I try to take this into account. As I recall you are in Mexico -- am I right ? I have been an associate, active in the United Lodge of Theosophists for many years, and we have here at the Lodge a very active group of Spanish speaking associates who meet several times a week to study both practical and theoretical Theosophy. We also have a large range of literature translated into Spanish and this is widely used. If you would like a list I will be glad to send one to you at you address (which I would need only for this). With best wishes to you as always, Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:23:22 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re:An idea or oops Pam Giese wrote: > I've only been a member of TS for a year. My > physical world contact with TS has been through the Wheaton group and > frankly, if it wasn't for other TS contacts via this email list, I'd be > dropping my membership at next renewal. My experience of TS via Wheaton is > that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I'm not trying to make this serious matter as a joke, but Have you seen the movie "The road to wellville" A GREAT movie with Anthony Hopkins,Mattew Brotherick (CUTE BIMBO) John Cusack and Bridget Fonda?? Is a comic view of what was the early century craze for health, health foods and other stuff,based on the life of Dr.Kellog. I believe Theosophy deserves a movie made like that way. Wouldn't be fun?? > > Pam > pgiese@snd.softfarm.com > Estrella (Trying to see the sunshine and the rainbow ahead of the cloud) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:45:45 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Ella M. Judge and Theosophy Feb 20th 1998 Dallas writes: According to what I have heard and read, Mrs. Judge was a Methodist and gave Judge a hard time in some ways because of her views. As a young couple they lived in a portion of the house where her family lived in Brooklyn. I do not believe that the death of the child was the result of any problems between them. It occurred before he met Theosophy. However, it did sharpen his desire to make inquiry into states after death and to understand the reason why such a calamity could occur. As a result he, reading Col. Olcott's newspaper account of the Psycho-Spiritual events in Chittenden, got in touch with him and asked him to recommend a good "medium." Col. Olcott must have shown this inquiry to Mme. Blavatsky, who asked Mr. Judge to visit them. This was in 1874 before the T S was started (Nov. 17th 1875). When Mr. Judge became deeply interested in Theosophy Mrs. Judge opposed that change. I have not seen any further details. When the ULT opened a Lodge in New York Mrs. Judge joined it. Prior to that the ULT in Los Angeles had begun the reprinting of Mr. Judge's books, and on the sale of THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, etc., a royalty was set aside and duly paid to Mrs. Judge. Her financial situation was not good and she appreciated the gesture. Hope this is of some help. Dallas =========================================== >From: "Marshall Hemingway III" >Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 7:34 AM >Subject: Ella M. Judge and Theosophy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:19:43 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:An idea or oops Feb 20th 1998 Dear Thoa: O. The T S was not started so as to engage in politics of any kind. HPB would not permit it and so long as she was alive it did not operate at any time under that method. The T S was established to promulgate Theosophy and to provide to those interested in its work and its Objects a place dedicated to their study and inquiry and to be of help to the world at large because of BROTHERHOOD being put into action. The T S is not engaged in policing its members. Brotherhood precludes that. If it has allowed personal opinions and politics to enter its area it is violating its own principles. However, the T S is a name given to principles and ideas. It should exist for that alone. Its members, as individuals ought to resist any attempt to abridge or reduce that basis. If they have not historically, and do not at present resist, then they tacitly allow a grand project to fail. The failure is therefore individual. Periodically I have referred to two key articles by HPB which sets this principle clearly in view: A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR LUCIFER Vol. 4, p. 506, Aug. 1889 WHY I DO NOT RETURN TO INDIA (April 1890) THEOSOPHIST, July 1929 In my very humble opinion any further discussion on the situation ought to be abridged. It up to the members of the T S to make what changes or decisions they deem necessary. The principles are clear, as I see them. Applications and progress are always individual. No one was ever set up, HPB included, as a "Leader" of anyone in Theosophy or in the TS. I hope this clarifies Dallas ============================================================= >From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" >Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 3:30 AM >Subject: An idea or oops >Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had no > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:33:40 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:An idea or oops Feb 20th 1998 Dear Pam: The original purpose of all "Theos-talk" efforts and of all "organizations" is to have a forum in, or at which Theosophical philosophies and related matters could, and can, be discussed. Politics and religion and personal opinions -- if they relate to "side issues" detract from the study of Theosophical principles, and the free flavor of interested interchange. Lao Tsu and Krishnamurti are good sources to become familiar with, but their ideas are derived from a source called the "Wisdom-Religion," or the "Esoteric philosophy," which are names given to Theosophy -- the perennial wisdom-philosophy that has been in the hands of Sages and Adepts for thousands and millions of years. Mme. Blavatsky in ISIS UNVEILED, Vol 2, p. 99-103 gives a survey of this ancient Lodge of Adepts. It is also described in other places. Our World is like a School. In essence we are immortals, who come each life as to a day in class and there we learn together the facts and rules of life as embedded in Nature ( which already contains everything). We look, inquire, seek and learn. We are all equal in this, and some are either more advanced, or delayed than others, but everyone has the same opportunity. Karma (justice and equity) is the general Law of living. Reincarnation is the process for us, who are Minds in evolution. There is much more of course. You are no doubt aware of the 3 Objects of the Theosophical Movement and the T S -- from those individuals start to study and find out what Theosophy is, and do not engage in"politics" or "bickering." There is enough of that in the outside ordinary world, and true students of Theosophy, as I see it, are engaged in finding out what can be done to help others to a grasp of the fundamentals of life and useful living. In that we exchange the results of our individual quest -- so that friendly response may assure us that we are on the right track. So the response that comes in is of help to all when it is exposed through the medium of a group such as "Theos-talk" provides. We can all benefit. If, as a "new-comer" you study what HPB, the "Messenger" of the Masters wrote -- as in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, you won't go far wrong in securing from that a view of what she intended us to understand. There is plenty there that is new and surprisingly practical and valuable. that is what we are all discussing. The SECRET DOCTRINE is a wonderful source book for ore detailed information. It more easily accessible when one has acquired a working vocabulary such as the KEY provides. ISIS UNVEILED is a marvelous compendium assembling information concerning the esoteric, the occult and the laws of the invisible side of nature (who has seen the Soul, or Spirit ? -- they are inferred ), but with the evidence made available, these "invisible" aspects of nature, which actually rule and guide physical and visible events are made clearer to us. That is part of the growth that Theosophy encourages in each of us. Hope this serves to encourage, Dallas >From: "Pam Giese" >Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 6:06 AM >Subject: Re:An idea or oops >Thoa writes: >> Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had >no >> business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In >> fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything >smelling >> like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. >When >> you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten >> off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. > >I enjoyed your perspective on this issue and I think many of your comments >are right on target. I've only been a member of TS for a year. My >physical world contact with TS has been through the Wheaton group and >frankly, if it wasn't for other TS contacts via this email list, I'd be >dropping my membership at next renewal. My experience of TS via Wheaton is >that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a >number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. >Most events are geared to older participants who are content with the >passive lecturer-audience style of communication. Most attendees are >white, over 60, or generally lacking any broad-based grounding in occult, >metaphysics, or cross-religious study. All this from a group that is >centrally located >in the high-tech Silicon Prairie of the Chicago metropolitan community --an >area rich in cross-cultural diversity and sprouting many Hindu and Buddhist >centers. > >I hesitated to respond before because I've only been a member a short time. > Also, there's been a fair amont of flaming lately and I don't like >providing energy to such embers. From conversations on this list I've >become aware that there are active TS groups that are running rivers and >not stagnant ponds. This list has helped me see a broader view of TS than >the local center provides and I am thankful for that. Granted I usually >just read, but take it as a compliment --some of you are just so clever >and eloquent > >Pam >pgiese@snd.softfarm.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:03:29 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Re:An idea or oops Thoa Tran wrote: > > Hi Pam, > > You've been attending TS meetings for a year! Well, then, you have more > fortitude than I have. We attended one meeting in San Francisco, and I > felt like I was back in the Victorian era. This is not to do a disservice > to the people. The people at the meeting were very nice. I try to not > judge people by their age, but I did notice that there is only one other > young person at the meeting. > I wonder why.... > The meeting was supposed to be about relation to the X-Files. I thought, > hey, a fail-safe and fun topic for a first meeting! But, nooooo. What I > had a problem with was the rigid quality of the meeting. A bell was rung > to start the meeting, one person read passages from various books (nothing > related to the X-Files), we had a discussion, a bell was rung to start > meditation, and then a bell was rung to stop the meditation. I felt like > Pavlov's dog, having to respond to bells. And who can meditate during that > time frame? ZZZZZZZZZZZzzZZZZZZZZZZ............. (I can barely imagine the soberness of that meeting) The meeting was so rigid, no proper words could come naturally > out of my mouth. I couldn't even ask, "Uh, what about the X-Files?" At this point, you make me laugh a lot. HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!! ;p ;) :D (You should have asked) > Lastly, someone ought to have sent in Gianni Versace to do the decor! With > the environment and pictures of 19th century people, I was expecting an > organ mysteriously playing in the corner. I did like their Buddha room, > and the tons of theosophical books in their library. > > I agree with you regarding the weird contrast of the lodge and the > metropolitan environment. San Francisco is a place of coffee houses and > the birthplace of the Beatniks. We hang out with trendy artists and > designers, some who are also musicians. We are easy with our speech and > attitude. I can make crass jokes, and others will just flow with it. > > Some of the attitudes I've seen, that I don't like, on the theosophical > lists are those of the generation of the stern parent: shame, shame, do as > I say and not as I do, children should be seen and not heard, and > institutional dogmatism. > > I have a good idea why most theosophists seem white and older. The > attitude is rigid Victorian. People with a lively cultural heritage, e.g. > African-Americans, Hispanics, would not be interested in such an > environment. Maya Angelou would do a massive house redecorating if she was > President of a lodge. I already mentioned several reasons why the young > would not be interested. > > If it wasn't for my interest in theosophy and my appreciation of the fine > minds of theosophists, I would have disassociate myself from t/Theosophy a > long time ago. > > As always, have fun, Pam! > > Thoa :o) > Hey, Thoa, check the movie of Dr.Kellog I posted!! Would'nt be fun to make the Blavatsky movie like that?? I agree with you.maybe that's why young pepole like to go to the coffee houses. Estrella P.D. And what about the X-Files?? ;D HAAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA (You made my day) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:20:55 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: Astrology, Conception, etc... February 20th 1998 Several MSGS have been posted on this. In India there are current two levels (at least) of astrological = calculations. 1. starting with conception, and 2, starting at the physical birth of the baby physical form. Theosophically: Are we not dealing with the periodical incarnations of = an immortal being ? [ SD I 570 - 574 ] seems to point to this fact. It involves several = "monads" each on its pilgrimage and development of ever-increasing = panoramas of awareness, consciousness, intelligence -- either to enter = the fresh stage of an incarnation into a physical and psychic = environment provided by its Karma as an "individuality" = (Atma-Buddhi-Manas-Antaskarana) , or as in the case of the Higher Self, = to continue one of the many periods of monitoring and serving this = developing Intelligence by serving as its "Voice of Conscience." The three lines of evolution (condensed from the seven) are sketched for = us in SD I 181. =20 The nature of the MONAD is sketched in footnotes in SD I 174-5 -- and = there are many more interesting references to be found in the INDEX to = the SD for those who desire to develop their vision of this grand = scheme. Some of us wonder what the link between the doctrine (theory), and the = practice (ethics) of Theosophy are. To me, as I have looked over this = view provided by the SD and Theosophy it seems that we live in a vast = sentient universe where the main laws are BROTHERHOOD, tolerance of our = co-immortals, ASSISTANCE when we have learned something valuable to all = we contact. And then this would lead to personal application. If we = view the idea that Law is the same for all, that it is not to be = "escaped from;" i.e.: the consequences of our thoughts, desires, and = acts will always produce results. Effects follow causes. =20 Some of us desire to master those Laws of nature -- already in place -- = and harness them for various reasons. There is much theoretical = information to be acquired concerning the hidden side of nature. This hidden side is both: 1.) psychic (desire, passion, selfish, = acquisitive, domineering sometimes, but essentially it can be = characterized as "Me vs.. the World") and, 2.) the "Spiritual" -- = where we find universal ideas and ideals, where the reign of Universal = LAW is recognized as an inescapable Whole; it places as a cooperative = and inter-active Being with others of the same potential and capability. = It is inclusive and helpful, instead of exclusive and isolationist. =20 Where then, as immortals, are we going ? The decision on this is called = the "TWO PATHS" and is very well described in THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. = In fact we could suggest that this small book which HPB translated from = stanzas in THE BOOK OF DZYAN, offers the most reasonable and = comprehensive ethical practices a student of Theosophy could consider. =20 Self-progress and self-development follow exactly the same process that = we became familiar with in School and College. In any class there are = those who are bright, there are those who work hard to become bright and = there are those who are indifferent for various reasons. Each group and = every individual within such a group can change from any group to = another, but only by way of his or her own exertions. WE advance or = retard ourselves according to our desires and efforts. So in ASTROLOGY. Our lives are moved from one group of correlates to = others. The process of reincarnation, consequent upon the workings of = Karma on various planes of our own being, and those of Nature, will = determine the appropriate family, time of birth, nation, religion (or = lack of it) and other kinds of situations. =20 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:41:26 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Dear Jerry: Thanks. What is the "committee of 1400" - curiosity, I have not = heard of this so far. > From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 11:51 AM From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:25:30 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: Hi All Dear Dallas, i have recieved your message. Yes, i am in Mexico (In Ensenada for being precise) And i have been interested in those matters that Theosophy tries to explain, for a while. i fortunately know english, which i have perfected this years trough the use mostly of these theosophy lists.i enjoy them a lot. resolved the matter of the e-mail, i started to dinamize myself on this list. I like your points of view,and the themes you talk, like i do with Doss, Thoa,Eldon,J.Mead, and much much others that the names escape to me....I like to be in both lists because in one list you can find pepole that do not post in the other lists (Like the fabulous Chuck for example, or you in this list) although i like the John Mead list system better because it has the digest system and doesn't crowd the mailbox so much.but i haven't figure out how i can reply to a single letter in that digest system,still. Everyone here and in the other lists talks about different subjects, and that is why i like this lists: for it's versatility, the amount of interesting information....The main point is helping eachothers, and do not quarrel in useless discussions like the one having right now. I myself try to think as the rishis would do: That if everyone is part of God,then only when we can unite as human beings, will become imparcial, because we then have all of the sides, all of the points of view, so then can judge clearly,and perfect imparcially.(or the most close to) Saying thanks to your response, and if anything you want to ask me, i can response....thanks by the way to all for responding my doubts-jokes. Estrella P.S. By the way, I have 26 years. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:59:01 -0700 From: "Dick Slusser" Subject: Re:Canadian Section At 02:24 PM 2/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >>From Lorraine Christensen > >Lmhem111 wrote: >> Canadian Section was excommunicated several years ago, an issue which >has been >> discussed on theos.talk previously. > >This is just to clarify matters that prior to the Canadian Section's >break with Adyar there were for many, many years two officially >recognized (by Adyar) theosophical organizations in Canada: > >- The Canadian Section, and >- The Canadian Federation. > >At present, I am aware of only one: The Canadian Federation, and it is >my understanding that it is on excellent terms with Adyar! > >Lorraine Christensen >henningc@quenet.com > Perhaps the attached High Country Theosophist for Sept. '92 will be helpful in throwing additional light on the Canadian Excommunication by Adyar. (It is in RTF format.) There have been further changes in the Canadian theosophical scene since the 1992 Exc. which are covered in back issues of the HCT. BTW the HCT IS AVAILABLE BY SUBSCRIPTION ON INTERNET and current back issues can be downloaded at ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/. Best wishes to all, Dick Slusser ed. HCT > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:07:01 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: An idea or oops Estrella: >At this point, you make me laugh a lot. >HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH >AAHAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHA >AAA!!!!!!!!! >;p ;) :D I'm going to call you El Snoopy from now on! >Hey, Thoa, check the movie of Dr.Kellog I posted!! Would'nt be fun to >make the Blavatsky movie like that?? >From what I read of theosophical history, they were like that. I saw a picture with a bunch of theosophists in their togas. It's the little quirks that they had that endear me to theosophists. If they had kept up that quirky trend, we wouldn't be looking at 19th century, but people in shiny spacesuits holding crystal wands. Have you checked out Chucky's website and a picture of him wearing his psionic helmet? Because of the recent serious trend, we should all be doing our laughing song like in the movie. HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA AHAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAAA A!!!!!!!!! Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:15:23 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge I recd. 4 emails from readers who declare W Judge was known as----Rajah. Among references were "Theosophy"---May 1896---- "the Rajah---as the real W.Q.J. was so often called" wrote "T." & "He was called by some The Rajah." wrote E Neresheimer. I don't possess Theosophy journal but J Belcher promises to send issues of April thru June 1896 full of tribute articles on W Judge soon after his death. I quote from another corresp. The note has relevant details------ >collating the material. Yes, he thinks he >knows the esoteric truth about W.Q.J. but he >can't even get the exoteric, historical facts >straight! Judge was residing in New York in >early Jan. 1895 (PATH magazine Feb. 1895 documents this). >He was also known to his intimates as Rajah. >(I will send you one E.S.T. circular of 1896 >showing this.) Also he confuses a *printed* >circular with a *handwritten* letter. There's more! >Be sure to write John. I think I gave you his >address in my last. He has a treasure >chest of W.Q.J.'s papers. He will be straight >with you and won't give you that kind of >crap about too esoteric. I'll photocopy the items >you requested and send airmail Monday. Also you More W Judge/Mrs Blavatsky documents to follow. Have decided to have web site with all W Judge papers I can find on these matters. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:09:39 -0600 From: "Govert Schuller Subject: New Acropolis For what it is worth: Quote from e-mail from Mr. Harry Costin from Boston, representative of New Acropolis for the northeastern US: "we are adamantly opposed to racism and have no connection whatsoever with former or current nazi or supremacy movements. Such accusations are particularly offensive to our Jewish members (several of our leaders are of Jewish background and we have a chapter in Israel)." Govert P.S.: Anybody found that theosophical article on NA yet? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:16:29 -0800 From: "Visanu Sirichote" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge David Green wrote: >I recd. 4 emails from >readers who declare >W Judge was known as----Rajah. >Among references were >"Theosophy"---May 1896---- > >"the Rajah---as the real >W.Q.J. was so often called" >wrote "T." >& >"He was called by some >The Rajah." >wrote E Neresheimer. There is no detailed knowledge but rather suggestive hint that the personality of W. Q. Judge was not the Raja, it is his Higher Ego that included the latter as one of its rays. This fact, however, doesn't contradict his being called Rajah. Extracts from Dialogue of G. de Purucker November 27, 1929 "Student : .... Do I understand correctly that the soul which filled the body of the one whom we have learned to know as Mr. Judge, was at the same time filling the body of the Raja? If this is so, how could it happen that this soul could be attracted to the two bodies at the same time? Also, I understand that the Raja died before Mr. Judge did. Was this not a relief to Mr. Judge? And why was it not a chance for his poor, tired, and sick body to pick up a bit? Please tell us more about this. G. de P. : .... Now, I do not like to say much about Mr. Judge's case, for the reason that there is a mystery there, to which Mr. Judge himself has but faintly alluded. But the mere passing, the dying, of the Hindu prince called the Raja would not necessarily at all increase or better the state of health which Mr. Judge himself had, because that was another body entirely. A ray of sunlight failing upon you might comfort you with its warmth and light and in other ways be pleasing to you and helpful; but another ray of sunlight, another ray of light, from the same luminary, might have a very different effect upon one who is lying on a sick bed. That is what I mean. " Visanu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 06:58:23 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Feb 21st 1998 Dear Visanu Thanks for the 4 references to Mr. Judge being called the "Rajah" If you have a copy of the ULT / Theosophy Company (Los Angeles) edition of LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME -- Judge and J. Niemand you will find several references to the use of this appellation for him. See p. 249 "In a Borrowed Body" The Journey of the Soul -- particularly look at pp. 250, 253-55, 257-260, 287-8, 294 On quite another subject: I came across in the OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS ENCYCLOPEDIA (year of publication unknown, as this was only an extract) a rather lengthy biographical note on Mr. Judge which covers very much the facts known to those who are familiar with his work and life. If any one is interested I can make a copy for them. [ No bearing on the subject of "The Rajah."] Best wishes, Dallas ================================ >From: "Visanu Sirichote" >Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 5:55 AM >Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge >David Green wrote: > >>I recd. 4 emails from >>readers who declare >>W Judge was known as----Rajah. < snip > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:40:33 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Internet as a Unifier I have always felt that Internet is going to have a very far reaching effect on the everyone. Its effect is already being felt by those who are interested in Theosophy. Whether this is recognized by the organizations and their leaders is still unclear. A case in point. When I lived in a large city in India, there was a ULT Lodge and three TS Adyar lodges. The largest TS Lodge and the ULT were within two miles of each other. Both were quite active. In spite of this, the active members of either were not familiar with each others. Much less in all the 13 years I lived, I did not see a single instance they had any joint effort or joint program. I had attended meetings of both the Lodges - TS Adyar and ULT, as a novice not familiar with territorial issues of the organizations. Lo and behold, after two decades I got interested in Internet e-mail lists. And what do we find? Those interested in Theosophy, belonging to any of the organizations as or none interacting and exchanging ideas, discussing various issues and each one is having Theosophy in their hearts. Of course, the leadership, especially the TS Adyar is following the old model. Have we seen any of the elected officials here or on any other non censored maillists or newsgroups? Let us be charitable, in that most of them belong to the old generation and grew up in pre-computer culture and it is difficult to make cultural adjustment and deal with the new medium. On a personal level, each one of us is dealing with others without the walls of organizations that tend to separate. Today if I were to visit the city in India, it is very easy for me to visit the lodges of both TS Adyar and ULT and the membership there would welcome me as a fellow T/theosophist rather than as a T/theosophist belonging to the one or the other organization. This breakthrough is something that is stunning and that has been accomplished by Internet in a short time. >From this example, I see immense potential of Internet to spread Theosophy as well as unify all of us who are interested in Theosophy. My 0.02 MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:00:08 PST From: "David Green" Subject: K Tingley & deceased W Judge:::::::::::::::::::More details There's letter by a Mr Emil August Neresheimer dated March 31, 1896 detailng Mrs Tingley channelling deceased W Judge. Excerpts follow & comments at end------- "The day after he [Judge] died he sent for me through [a symbol here designating Mrs K Tingley] with whom he made me acquainted in 1894........ Next day early I called, could not connect with him [Judge], all I could get through [Mrs Tingley] was 'to go slow, immensely slow.' He had something to say before the incineration. He came again at 12 m. next day but said nothing of any account. [Mrs Tingley] was not conscious. Two days afterward I was sent for in the evening.............I went, made notes of what he [Judge] wished me to say to the others, which was mostly retailing my entire connection, introduction by him [Judge] to [Mrs Tingley], all that transpired about the arrangement of the Convention of 1895, program of which was furnished me by [Mrs Tingley] and which was carried out. This I did to the (skeptical) audience consisting of E.T.H. Patterson, James Pryse, Griscom, Fussell (who were all designated to hear it) and I also transmitted the appointment for all of us to meet at Purple's [Mrs Tingley] same evening at 7:45 p.m. The Rajah [Judge] commenced to talk almost immediately through [Mrs Tingley], suggesting to select the Outer-Head and the Council. First change of feeling occurred at recognition of the Rajah. Skepticism was carried to the winds, doubts vanished, and spontaneity prevailed........I tell you the thing was most wonderful and impressive......" E Neresheimer letter was to A Cleather & is in Point Loma archives. Correspondent writes E Neresheimer was close friend of Mr Judge's & was executor of Judge's will. JHE doubts Rajah is name for W Judge. But I recd. 4 emails from readers who declare W Judge was known as----Rajah. Among references were "Theosophy"---May 1896---- "the Rajah---as the real W.Q.J. was so often called" wrote "T." & "He was called by some The Rajah." wrote E Neresheimer. Don't have copies of "Theosophy". & thanks to D Tenbroeck reference to "Letters that have helped me", p 274 E Hargrove mentions--- "On morning of March 19th, he [W Judge] asked me to make full enquires............... Mr. Neresheimer called that afternoon, and it was after he had said goodbye, and when I was sitting by the side of Mr. Judge's sofa, that the "Rajah" suddenly roused the body out of the half-sleep in which it had been lying, and with his unmistakable force said: "There should be calmness. Hold fast. Go slow."....................... D Tenbrock cites p 294 in "Letters". There E Neresheimer repeats on W Judge----------- ""He never tired of making things plain and simple............He was called by some "The Rajah." & Visanu's posting--------- >There is no detailed knowledge but rather suggestive hint that the >personality of W. Q. Judge was not the Raja, it is his Higher Ego that >included the latter as one of its rays. This fact, however, doesn't >contradict his being called Rajah. > >Extracts from Dialogue of G. de Purucker November 27, 1929 > >"Student : .... Do I understand correctly that the soul which filled the >body of the one whom we have learned to know as Mr. Judge, was at the same >time filling the body of the Raja? If this is so, how could it happen that >this soul could be attracted to the two bodies at the same time? Also, I >understand that the Raja died before Mr. Judge did. Was this not a relief to >Mr. Judge? And why was it not a chance for his poor, tired, and sick body to >pick up a bit? Please tell us more about this. > >G. de P. : .... Now, I do not like to say much about Mr. Judge's case, for >the reason that there is a mystery there, to which Mr. Judge himself has but >faintly alluded. But the mere passing, the dying, of the Hindu prince called >the Raja would not necessarily at all increase or better the state of health >which Mr. Judge himself had, because that was another body entirely. A ray >of sunlight failing upon you might comfort you with its warmth and light and >in other ways be pleasing to you and helpful; but another ray of sunlight, >another ray of light, from the same luminary, might have a very different >effect upon one who is lying on a sick bed. That is what I mean. " I'm told that a Mr Prysse in "Canadian Theosophical Journal" (1940s) penned article or 2 on W Judge & Rajah. Can somebody supply citations? I still need email of Mr Eklund, Judge expert. All above is context. You judge. Hope to receive EST paper giving W Judge---Rajah matter. Will post. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:20:36 PST From: "David Green" Subject: Tingley and deceased Judge----Correct copy There's letter by a Mr Emil August Neresheimer dated March 31, 1896 detailng Mrs Tingley channelling deceased W Judge. Excerpts follow & comments at end------- "The day after he [Judge] died he sent for me through [a symbol here designating Mrs K Tingley] with whom he made me acquainted in 1894........ Next day early I called, could not connect with him [Judge], all I could get through [Mrs Tingley] was 'to go slow, immensely slow.' He had something to say before the incineration. He came again at 12 m. next day but said nothing of any account. [Mrs Tingley] was not conscious. Two days afterward I was sent for in the evening.............I went, made notes of what he [Judge] wished me to say to the others, which was mostly retailing my entire connection, introduction by him [Judge] to [Mrs Tingley], all that transpired about the arrangement of the Convention of 1895, program of which was furnished me by [Mrs Tingley] and which was carried out. This I did to the (skeptical) audience consisting of E.T.H. Patterson, James Pryse, Griscom, Fussell (who were all designated to hear it) and I also transmitted the appointment for all of us to meet at Purple's [Mrs Tingley] same evening at 7:45 p.m. The Rajah [Judge] commenced to talk almost immediately through [Mrs Tingley], suggesting to select the Outer-Head and the Council. First change of feeling occurred at recognition of the Rajah. Skepticism was carried to the winds, doubts vanished, and spontaneity prevailed........I tell you the thing was most wonderful and impressive......" E Neresheimer letter was to A Cleather & is in Point Loma archives. Correspondent writes E Neresheimer was close friend of Mr Judge's & was executor of Judge's will. JHE doubts Rajah is name for W Judge. But I recd. 4 emails from readers who declare W Judge was known as----Rajah. Among references were "Theosophy"---May 1896---- "the Rajah---as the real W.Q.J. was so often called" wrote "T." & "He was called by some The Rajah." wrote E Neresheimer. Don't have copies of "Theosophy". & thanks to D Tenbroeck reference to "Letters that have helped me", p 274 E Hargrove mentions--- "On morning of March 19th, he [W Judge] asked me to make full enquires............... Mr. Neresheimer called that afternoon, and it was after he had said goodbye, and when I was sitting by the side of Mr. Judge's sofa, that the "Rajah" suddenly roused the body out of the half-sleep in which it had been lying, and with his unmistakable force said: "There should be calmness. Hold fast. Go slow."....................... D Tenbrock cites p 294 in "Letters". There E Neresheimer repeats on W Judge----------- ""He never tired of making things plain and simple............He was called by some "The Rajah." & Visanu's posting--------- >There is no detailed knowledge but rather suggestive hint that the >personality of W. Q. Judge was not the Raja, it is his Higher Ego that >included the latter as one of its rays. This fact, however, doesn't >contradict his being called Rajah. > >Extracts from Dialogue of G. de Purucker November 27, 1929 > >"Student : .... Do I understand correctly that the soul which filled the >body of the one whom we have learned to know as Mr. Judge, was at the same >time filling the body of the Raja? If this is so, how could it happen that >this soul could be attracted to the two bodies at the same time? Also, I >understand that the Raja died before Mr. Judge did. Was this not a relief to >Mr. Judge? And why was it not a chance for his poor, tired, and sick body to >pick up a bit? Please tell us more about this. > >G. de P. : .... Now, I do not like to say much about Mr. Judge's case, for >the reason that there is a mystery there, to which Mr. Judge himself has but >faintly alluded. But the mere passing, the dying, of the Hindu prince called >the Raja would not necessarily at all increase or better the state of health >which Mr. Judge himself had, because that was another body entirely. A ray >of sunlight failing upon you might comfort you with its warmth and light and >in other ways be pleasing to you and helpful; but another ray of sunlight, >another ray of light, from the same luminary, might have a very different >effect upon one who is lying on a sick bed. That is what I mean. " I'm told that a Mr Prysse in "Canadian Theosophical Journal" (1940s) penned article on W Judge & Rajah. Can somebody supply citation? I still need email of Mr Eklund, Judge expert. All above is context. You judge. Hope to receive EST paper giving W Judge---Rajah matter. Will post. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:58:13 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: Miami Doss: >The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. >Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put >our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is >welcome. Please provide feed back here! > >mkr Sometimes the "rock is bigger than both of us", Doss. When I piped in with the idea of increasing communication, I received expressions of irritation from various people. After reviewing various posts, I came to the conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with hostility or could not be bothered. The only two affirmation I received was Doss' contribution to the idea and Bart's willingness to suggest contacts. The result of their affirmation was ridicule to them. Thus is the dynamics of the total body. Two bases of eastern teaching are to be in the present moment and to develop compassion. Meditation was designed to promote that present moment, and hence increase compassion. For all of the theosophical inclusion of eastern teaching, some recent communication contained lots of past hurt and suspicion, far more than the post that s/he was responding to warranted. The anger was so great that compassion for the "adversary" was not followed. But, hey, let's not worry about this. Let's sit and meditate that the war with Iraq will not happen. Let's use that mysterious mind power to influence the prevention of WWIII. It's a whole lot easier to do that. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 15:13:37 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Miami At 10:58 AM 2/21/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Doss: > >>The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. >>Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put >>our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is >>welcome. Please provide feed back here! >> >>mkr > >Sometimes the "rock is bigger than both of us", Doss. When I piped in with >the idea of increasing communication, I received expressions of irritation >from various people. After reviewing various posts, I came to the >conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the >people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with >hostility or could not be bothered. The only two affirmation I received >was Doss' contribution to the idea and Bart's willingness to suggest >contacts. The result of their affirmation was ridicule to them. Thus is >the dynamics of the total body. There are always a wide spectrum of reaction. The issues we are trying to address/solve are matters of policy and principles. So long as we address them at that level, there is always a possibility for change. The change may not be what anyone expects or likes and may or may not take time. At the same time, I am personally convinced that no one should under estimate (or over estimate) what can be accomplished by a handful of individuals. If the time is ripe, just the interest of a few could bring about great results. It is this confidence that makes me an optimist and lose interest in the matter. I would like to share how I approach these matters of great importance -- more imporant than any of us and any of the present leadership. Recently when one of the top elected officials was visiting here on a lecture tour, I volunteered to host the official and we had a very good time even though we did not discuss any of the policy matters during the stay at my home. My home is always open to *anyone* no matter what our personal opinions or disagreements are. This has been our long held family tradition for three generations and we always enjoyed hosting visitors. > >Two bases of eastern teaching are to be in the present moment and to >develop compassion. Meditation was designed to promote that present >moment, and hence increase compassion. For all of the theosophical >inclusion of eastern teaching, some recent communication contained lots of >past hurt and suspicion, far more than the post that s/he was responding to >warranted. The anger was so great that compassion for the "adversary" was >not followed. > In many cases, based on past experience one becomes a little bit skeptical and looks closer at people and their actions. Such skepticism is very healthy and as actions speak louder than words, actions which pass muster can only build better credibility and trust. >But, hey, let's not worry about this. Let's sit and meditate that the war >with Iraq will not happen. Let's use that mysterious mind power to >influence the prevention of WWIII. It's a whole lot easier to do that. > >Thoa :o) The hawkish approach to Iraq is senseless. I felt very happy when I saw the heckling at OSU as well as the heckling that Richardson faced yesterday. How much killing and maiming are we willing to take responsibility for cheap oil? I hope there is no attack on Iraq. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:10:31 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: A CITRIC PERSPECTIVE CITRUS FRUITS denote sweet acid. Contemplate the contrasts between the sensations: namely sweetness, fragrance, and the sharpness of the accompanying acidic sting ... We may compare our attitudes of concept forming, to that of the experience of a good, freshly picked, juice impacted citrus fruit. When we come to try a teaching or a new thought, and weigh it in measure with our former experience, and then by comparisons with spoken and unspoken truths, we may know of those qualities that appeal to our inner senses - just as keenly as we should experience the citrus. As concepts go, there are many that hang heavy on the tree of knowledge. To the personal sense, some may have been lost to decompose, where fallen unclaimed, and with time spent, turn to rancid waste. The acidic elements with water combine, split the skin, and then weaken the form. Finally there is shrinkage or dissipation, in final breakdown. What of the fruit left unhappily beneath the tree? It returns, absorbed through the ground, eventually making its way back to the bough. Unless of course, it has been claimed. And some might hurry to pluck the unripe and immature fruit. All sour and distasteful, and alarming to the unsuspecting, eager picker. The fragrance brings promise, but the sweetness yet to unfurl. Green and unpalatable. Some prefer marmalade, some prefer the juices expelled. Moreover the vitality is largely spent when one dilutes, adds or extracts long after the fruit has been first pried into. May we put to test the offerings of wisdom, by the fragrance, the sweetness, and the acidic bite. The nature of a truth, does surely hold a spirited fragrance, which expels/emits an inner sensory notation, which speaks to us. The sweetness comes from Heaven herself: for all which is in truth cosmic and pure, is pleasing and sweet to the soul. The acid is the action of true clarity and vision, where illusion is put to the quick, and dispelled in the light of right knowledge. B.Hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 18:49:56 EST From: "Pat Reda" Subject: Re:Miami *let's conjure up a dose of the theosophy virus for mr. clinton. it would do him a world of good on all levels. {as well as the world} *i read that immoral or evil men/women (those with incredibly maladjusted animal drives {anima mundis? (sic.)}) simply cease to exist after they're gone and have no opportunity of furthering their goals through reicarnation . perhaps mrs. c can ask eleanor roosevelt next time she's talking to her through her chaneler. if she knew the real truth she would sh.. a brick. *what can you expect from a president with a political view similar to the chinese on the issue of control over tibet? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:03:27 -0700 From: "Lorraine Christensen" Subject: Re:Internet as a Unifier >From Lorraine Christensen I liked what you wrote. I see the Internet's potential to be a unifier of various TS groups. We are part of the Worldwide TS Network! Discussion groups like theos-talk are making it happen! It serves as a practical way for us to live out the first object of the Society. Lorraine Christensen henningc@quenet.com ---------- > From: "M K Ramadoss" > Subject: Internet as a Unifier > Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 8:40 AM > > I have always felt that Internet is going to have a very far reaching > effect on the everyone. Its effect is already being felt by those who are > interested in Theosophy. Whether this is recognized by the organizations > and their leaders is still unclear. > > A case in point. When I lived in a large city in India, there was a ULT > Lodge and three TS Adyar lodges. The largest TS Lodge and the ULT were > within two miles of each other. Both were quite active. In spite of this, > the active members of either were not familiar with each others. Much less > in all the 13 years I lived, I did not see a single instance they had any > joint effort or joint program. I had attended meetings of both the Lodges - > TS Adyar and ULT, as a novice not familiar with territorial issues of the > organizations. > > Lo and behold, after two decades I got interested in Internet e-mail lists. > And what do we find? Those interested in Theosophy, belonging to any of the > organizations as or none interacting and exchanging ideas, discussing > various issues and each one is having Theosophy in their hearts. Of course, > the leadership, especially the TS Adyar is following the old model. Have we > seen any of the elected officials here or on any other non censored > maillists or newsgroups? Let us be charitable, in that most of them belong > to the old generation and grew up in pre-computer culture and it is > difficult to make cultural adjustment and deal with the new medium. > > On a personal level, each one of us is dealing with others without the > walls of organizations that tend to separate. Today if I were to visit the > city in India, it is very easy for me to visit the lodges of both TS Adyar > and ULT and the membership there would welcome me as a fellow T/theosophist > rather than as a T/theosophist belonging to the one or the other > organization. This breakthrough is something that is stunning and that has > been accomplished by Internet in a short time. > > From this example, I see immense potential of Internet to spread Theosophy > as well as unify all of us who are interested in Theosophy. > > My 0.02 > > MKR > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:47:31 EST From: "Visanu Sirish" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate In a message dated 98-02-21 08:49:51 EST, you write: << the personality of W. Q. Judge was not the Raja, it is his Higher Ego that included the latter as one of its rays >> This sounds like some sort of group soul concept. I thought that humans were individualized spiritual entities. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:58:30 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Eklund Dear David, >I still need email of Mr Eklund, Judge >expert. That e-mail is ah430@lafn.org (Dara Eklund). She is a librarian with the City of L.A. Yours truly, Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:14:26 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: address for a suggestion Sorry, I forgot to mention that mail should be sent to nl-l@theosophia.org and I believe you just ask that your name be added to the list, but it's possible that you have to at least be a member of the National Lodge of Theosophists or a Member at Large. Does anyone know? Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:28:15 EST From: "Visanu Sirish" Subject: Re:Internet as a Unifier In a message dated 98-02-21 19:22:44 EST, you write: << We are part of the Worldwide TS Network! Discussion groups like theos-talk are making it happen! >> I have learned quite a bit about theosophical history and the finer points of the teachings on the Internet and in these discussion rooms. For this I am grateful. My only regret is seeing the volatility of some of the participants when they encounter ideas not to their liking. One needs to chill out, take a deep breath and respond objectively with compassion and consideration for others. Discussion of theosophical ideas should arouse and stimulate the manasic nature, not the kamic. My two cents. Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:17:37 EST From: "Visanu Sirish" Subject: southern Iraq, home to a gnostic sect In a message dated 98-02-21 17:06:26 EST, MKR writes: << I hope there is no attack on Iraq >> There is a gnostic sect still existing in southern Iraq. They regard John the Baptist as the one of the incarnations of Manda da Hayye, "Gnosis of LIfe", who is the chief redeemer and mediator between God and man. They keep very low key because of the Moslem domination of the area. They are called the Mandeans. For a brief summary, see GNOSTICISM: ITS HISTORY AND INFLUENCE by Benjamin Walker (pp.159-60). They believe in the doctrine of emanations. I'm uncertain whether they believe in reincarnation. They have been identified, rightly or wrongly, with Nazoreans whom HPB mentions in the SD and elsewhere in her writings. They are also described in THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY (p.212). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:10:48 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: a suggestion >>The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. >>Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put >>our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is >>welcome. Please provide feed back here! >> >>mkr > >Sometimes the "rock is bigger than both of us", Doss. When I piped in with >the idea of increasing communication, I received expressions of irritation >from various people. After reviewing various posts, I came to the >conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the >people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with >hostility or could not be bothered. The only two affirmation I received >was Doss' contribution to the idea and Bart's willingness to suggest >contacts. The result of their affirmation was ridicule to them. Thus is >the dynamics of the total body. I finally decided what this list is missing. We have had lots of references to a sister-list called theos-l and many subscribers of this list are subscribers there. Now what we need to recommend is that for people who are interested there is a TS-run discussion group called NL-L. This list could use a lot more advertisement here because this is where John Algeo, Joan McDougal and many popular members of the TS who have worked on staff (or not) come together to discuss the theosophical work. They are studying THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and have studied I.K. Taimini also, I believe. Joan will post a conglomerate of material when she has a group (or even single pieces, if there appears to be a lull) and she has complete control over what messages if any get printed. In this way, there is no sensitive material or ridicule or fights, just harmony and peaceful discussion. Please everyone join here and write with the staff at Olcott as much as you like. They would look forward to it. Please Doss and Thoa, especially, get active here. I don't know why I didn't think of it before?! Yours truly, Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:25:18 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: the saving of a life for reincarnation Dear Magi42: >*i read that immoral or evil men/women (those with incredibly maladjusted >animal drives {anima mundis? (sic.)}) simply cease to exist after they're >gone and have no opportunity of furthering their goals through reicarnation . Have you ever thought of a new definition for an old word - "save?" This new definition has to do with our computer files and the way we "save" changes to a document and "save" our work rather than lose it. I wonder if Jesus or some being actually presses a save button if the life has worthwhile information. I think just the recognition of ascended masters would be enough to make the life worthwhile. Just the recognition of the fact that there is a greater love than ours, and that our love will one day expand as an indication of progress. Even if someone feels they are obeying a law, I mean, what is law? Law could be the embodiment of a higher being. As long as there wasn't strict adherence to a "material" existence, so that there could be no room in the thought of the individual for a grand scheme or existence blessing existence, then the life could be saved, too. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:41:30 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: Secret Doctrine Symosium Here is an update I am posting on theos-l, ti-l and theos-news and theos-talk for info. mkr At 05:05 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Just a note to let you know that information on the Secret Doctrine >Symposium is in the process of being updated and posted on the website. > >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/astrycker/ > >Proposals for papers were due Jan. 31. A number of them were received and >are being reviewed. Some others are anticipated but not yet received, and >some space on the program remains open for individuals still interested in >participating as presenters. > >Some information is provided for those interested in making reservations. >Also, some of the authors are listed, although exact titles, program >schedule, etc., has yet to be finalized. Some of the authors expected at >this time are: Ken Small, Richard Brooks, David Reigle, Anthony Lysy, Anne >Redlich, Russell Nelson, Richard Robb, W. Doss McDavid, and Dr. Gorbunov >Yuri from the Ukraine. Other papers from around the world have been >mentioned but are not yet confirmed. It is possible that some papers may >be submitted by authors not able to attend, and readers may be designated >if appropriate. > >Arden Strycker, Secretary >Midwest Federation > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:51:35 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Internet as a Unifier Thanks for your feedback. The maillists are just the tip of the iceberg. Great opportunities are in store and who can know what is in store in the future. Would it not be nice if all those interested in Theosophy and peace in the world bombarding Clinton with e-mail asking him to concentrate on his defense of his legal problems and not kill innocent men, women and children in Iraq by letting loose the military might of US? We need new ideas of how to use Internet for Theosophy. mkr At 05:03 PM 2/21/1998 -0700, you wrote: >>From Lorraine Christensen > >I liked what you wrote. I see the Internet's potential to be a unifier >of various TS groups. We are part of the Worldwide TS Network! >Discussion groups like theos-talk are making it happen! It serves as >a practical way for us to live out the first object of the Society. > >Lorraine Christensen >henningc@quenet.com > >---------- >> From: "M K Ramadoss" >> Subject: Internet as a Unifier >> Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 8:40 AM >> >> I have always felt that Internet is going to have a very far reaching >> effect on the everyone. Its effect is already being felt by those who >are >> interested in Theosophy. Whether this is recognized by the >organizations >> and their leaders is still unclear. >> >> A case in point. When I lived in a large city in India, there was a >ULT >> Lodge and three TS Adyar lodges. The largest TS Lodge and the ULT >were >> within two miles of each other. Both were quite active. In spite of >this, >> the active members of either were not familiar with each others. Much >less >> in all the 13 years I lived, I did not see a single instance they had >any >> joint effort or joint program. I had attended meetings of both the >Lodges - >> TS Adyar and ULT, as a novice not familiar with territorial issues of >the >> organizations. >> >> Lo and behold, after two decades I got interested in Internet e-mail >lists. >> And what do we find? Those interested in Theosophy, belonging to any >of the >> organizations as or none interacting and exchanging ideas, discussing >> various issues and each one is having Theosophy in their hearts. Of >course, >> the leadership, especially the TS Adyar is following the old model. >Have we >> seen any of the elected officials here or on any other non censored >> maillists or newsgroups? Let us be charitable, in that most of them >belong >> to the old generation and grew up in pre-computer culture and it is >> difficult to make cultural adjustment and deal with the new medium. >> >> On a personal level, each one of us is dealing with others without >the >> walls of organizations that tend to separate. Today if I were to >visit the >> city in India, it is very easy for me to visit the lodges of both TS >Adyar >> and ULT and the membership there would welcome me as a fellow >T/theosophist >> rather than as a T/theosophist belonging to the one or the other >> organization. This breakthrough is something that is stunning and >that has >> been accomplished by Internet in a short time. >> >> From this example, I see immense potential of Internet to spread >Theosophy >> as well as unify all of us who are interested in Theosophy. >> >> My 0.02 >> >> MKR >> >> > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:08:41 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: thoughts about Theosophy, the TS and the ULT Feb 21 1998 Dallas writes: Dear Thoa:O and Doss and friends: As you see seeds of thought are sent out and sometimes written -- no one should expect response -- but, the effects last wherever they fall. It is no use trying to move either individuals or groups. Individuals constitute groups and either they move dynamically, (with or without sympathy) or they, as individuals, allow themselves to be swallowed and moved by the inertia of the group. No one "escapes" the karma of their choice. Even not choosing is "a choice." In this case we have THEOSOPHY. As I sense it most wonder what Theosophy is, exactly. They like the idea of brotherhood. They like the idea, perhaps of an invisible and strange world, (within and behind and perhaps interactive with the visible physical), but they are not sure as to what it is or how it works, perhaps, even, they do not want to know ! Some have come to Theosophy from "spiritualism, channeling, trance experiences," etc... and like the explanations which seem to satisfy the idea of the personal links through curiosity and a desire to probe the invisible, and, perhaps hear something valuable from those energies that claim to be the deceased ... and so on ... When confronted by the concept of an immovable LAW and Laws that move the whole of Nature, they either accept, investigate, or reject -- Why should I be ruled by anything ? Why should I not be able to escape ? Why should I be, or am, punished ? Why should I not believe that I have heard a message from --- or ----! Some rebel against being "immortal." I would rather live this one happy/miserable or whatever life and not be bothered by the strange views of Theosophy! But, a lingering doubt itches: Perhaps what Theosophy says is true ! Perhaps someone will come along who can find a path that shifts from one secure foothold to another, and I may learn to skip with them ! Or, perhaps there is a foolish God up there who likes to be praised and prayed to, like some proud and ambitious mortals enjoy ! What is true ? In any case, Theosophy is tolerant and brotherly and I can enjoy being amused by the writings of those who think it valuable to write on such matters ! And, so on... a thousand other reasons and motives exist... None of these are "wrong," nor should they be derided. It is only that they shy away from the hard work of finding out with certainty what is true. Authorities are then sought for, and when selected their dicta is accepted, or followed, without much further critical thought. Of such things are politics and leadership constructed. Theosophy on the other hand places each individual on his own responsibility. No one can be blamed except ones' self for bad or ill advised choices and decisions. So that is why I am of the opinion that we ought to let the various "Theosophical bodies" settle their own internal affairs, and let those who want to search for Theosophical values do their searching, knowing that there are always some who are willing to listen and respond to honest inquiry. We can all grow in wisdom if we get together and work constructively. In another positing Doss you said that you could be welcomed at either a T S or a ULT Lodge if you visited. True. The T S might ask for your affiliation. The ULT will not. The ULT has a Declaration of Policy which reads (in part): "the policy of this Lodge is independent devotion to the cause of Theosophy, without professing attachment to any Theosophical organization...It holds that the unassailable basis for union among Theosophists, wherever and however situated, is "similarity of aim, purpose and teaching," and therefore has neither Constitution, By-Laws nor Officers, the sole bond between its Associates being that basis... It regards as theosophists all who are engaged in the true service of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, condition or organization... It welcomes to its Association all who are in accord with its declared purposes and who desire to fit themselves, by study and otherwise, to be the better able to help and teach others... It is loyal to the Great Founders of the Theosophical Movement but does not concern itself with dissensions or differences of individual opinion... The work it has on hand...is the dissemination of the Fundamental Principles of the Philosophy of Theosophy and the exemplification in practice of those principles, through a truer realization of the SELF; a profounder conviction of Universal Brotherhood. ...." Any one can make use of the ULT facilities. No one asks who a visitor is, or what their affiliations may be. No dues or contributions are ever solicited. Each ULT Lodge or "Study Group" has its own independent schedule of activities and study, and if it maintains a library, the literature there is available freely for those who want to read or purchase. One of the prime reasons for the existence of the ULT is to keep available and in print the "original teachings of Theosophy" as "recorded in the writings of H.P.Blavatsky and Wm. Q. Judge." The ULT exists since 1909 on this basis. Its Declaration is the only documentary basis for its existence. It does not solicit membership. Its doors and facilities are open free to all who seek and study and wish to help others with their efforts. 90 years of work lie behind the many who have so loosely, yet individual, have strongly joined together, "as they have decided for themselves," to support this kind of independent and inclusive work where all, without any restrictions, are welcome. I mention this because it is such a contrast to the T S. Each have their place in the scheme of things and the measure of their value is to be decided only in terms of the inner progress that each individual achieves. There is serious work afoot, as I see it. It should be well understood that these are my own personal views. Dallas >From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" >Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 11:10 AM >Subject: Miami >Doss: > >>The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. >>Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put >>our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is >>welcome. Please provide feed back here! SNIP SNIP SNIP From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:04:47 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Internet as a Unifier At 08:28 PM 2/21/1998 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-21 19:22:44 EST, you write: > ><< We are part of the Worldwide TS Network! > Discussion groups like theos-talk are making it happen! >> > >I have learned quite a bit about theosophical history and the finer points of >the teachings on the Internet and in these discussion rooms. For this I am >grateful. My only regret is seeing the volatility of some of the participants >when they encounter ideas not to their liking. One needs to chill out, take a >deep breath and respond objectively with compassion and consideration for >others. Discussion of theosophical ideas should arouse and stimulate the >manasic nature, not the kamic. > >My two cents. >Lmhem111 > Your points are well taken. This question was discussed on theos-l several months ago and it appears that the maillists are having catharetic effect and does indeed help the participants. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:08:46 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:a suggestion At 05:10 PM 2/21/1998 -0800, you wrote: > >>>The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. >>>Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put >>>our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is >>>welcome. Please provide feed back here! >>> >>>mkr >> >>Sometimes the "rock is bigger than both of us", Doss. When I piped in with >>the idea of increasing communication, I received expressions of irritation >>from various people. After reviewing various posts, I came to the >>conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the >>people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with >>hostility or could not be bothered. The only two affirmation I received >>was Doss' contribution to the idea and Bart's willingness to suggest >>contacts. The result of their affirmation was ridicule to them. Thus is >>the dynamics of the total body. > >I finally decided what this list is missing. We have had lots of references >to a sister-list called theos-l and many subscribers of this list are >subscribers there. Now what we need to recommend is that for people who are >interested there is a TS-run discussion group called NL-L. This list could >use a lot more advertisement here because this is where John Algeo, Joan >McDougal and many popular members of the TS who have worked on staff (or >not) come together to discuss the theosophical work. They are studying THE >VOICE OF THE SILENCE and have studied I.K. Taimini also, I believe. > >Joan will post a conglomerate of material when she has a group (or even >single pieces, if there appears to be a lull) and she has complete control >over what messages if any get printed. In this way, there is no sensitive >material or ridicule or fights, just harmony and peaceful discussion. > >Please everyone join here and write with the staff at Olcott as much as you >like. They would look forward to it. Please Doss and Thoa, especially, get >active here. I don't know why I didn't think of it before?! > >Yours truly, > >Brenda thanks for the info. btw is the nl-l a moderated (censored /controlled...) list? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:54:34 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: thoughts about Theosophy, the TS and the ULT At 05:08 PM 2/21/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Feb 21 1998 > >Dallas writes: > >Dear Thoa:O and Doss and friends: >>>>>>>clip<<<<<<<<<<<< >In another positing Doss you said that you could be welcomed at >either a T S or a ULT Lodge if you visited. True. The T S might >ask for your affiliation. The ULT will not. >>>>clip<<<<<<< >It should be well understood that these are my own personal >views. Ramadoss Writes: At every TS Adyar lodge I have visited, they are always happy to see anyone interested in Theosophy. Once, long time ago, I visited a city on business. Before I visited, I contacted the Theosophists - 4 of them - and they were delighted to see me, a young man not much of any scholar or spiritual leader and they held a Dinner in my honor. Theosophists are known for their hospitality. I am looking forward to the day all of us -- just ordinary people interested in theosophy -- getting together and interacting all due to Internet. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:40:53 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: moderated NL-L? >thanks for the info. btw is the nl-l a moderated (censored /controlled...) >list? Of course! Read the post again. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:11:27 -0700 From: "Bjorn Roxendal" Subject: Re:Internet as a Unifier I feel the same way. Let us use the opportunity afforded through these lists to learn to disagree in harmony, maintaining respectful and compassionate feelings for each other. Bjorn Megabeet@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-21 19:22:44 EST, you write: > > << We are part of the Worldwide TS Network! > Discussion groups like theos-talk are making it happen! >> > > I have learned quite a bit about theosophical history and the finer points of > the teachings on the Internet and in these discussion rooms. For this I am > grateful. My only regret is seeing the volatility of some of the participants > when they encounter ideas not to their liking. One needs to chill out, take a > deep breath and respond objectively with compassion and consideration for > others. Discussion of theosophical ideas should arouse and stimulate the > manasic nature, not the kamic. > > My two cents. > Lmhem111 > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:22:44 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Solar Eclipse and Evolution of Mankind Thursday the 26 will be a solar elispse. I am not sure of the time. The Iragi invasion and bombings were timed at the new moon last time. Also in some locations up to five planets may be visible. I think events that start at this time will be of not. Some may end with a bang. I wonder what occult significance this may have. With the solar energy blocked, the lunar and planetary energy may stream forth. I am thinking of the film 2001: A Space Oddysey which was very popular when I was young, but isn't talked about much anymore. Do you remember the "starchild" image at the end of the film. It was one of the most powerful images in all of film for me. It spoke in a few seconds about ideas about human evolution. Of couse, it was not specific, but the film suggested that our evolution is being guided from higher "worlds". The stargate was as much a Jacob's ladder as a physical wormhole through space. The astronaut traveled interdimesionally. He saw history spread out before him from primate, to renassaince, to the next stage of the Uber-Mensh, the 5th race some could say. Was this starchild a physcial being to be born and populate the earth like a new Manu. Was he a Messiah? From the look in his eye, he was a Gnostic, that little feller knew something! Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:21:12 -0800 From: "Visanu Sirichote" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Megabeet@aol.com wrote ><< the > personality of W. Q. Judge was not the Raja, it is his Higher Ego that > included the latter as one of its rays >> > >This sounds like some sort of group soul concept. I thought that humans were >individualized spiritual entities. It's not group soul concept, the personality of Judge and Raja did not dissolve or blend together after physical death as those in lower kingdoms but the separate pages of these two lives will be intact in the Book of Life. The problem is whether double incarnation is possible, in other words, can the same human monad send down its force to vivify different personalities at the same time. My opinion is that normal human being can't but an adept can. Master K.H. in his letter to Sinnett (ML-49) wrote that " The Tchang-chub (an adept who has, by the power of his knowledge and soul enlightenment, become exempt from the curse Of UNCONSCIOUS transmigration) -- may, at his will and desire, and instead of reincarnating himself only after bodily death, do so, and repeatedly -- during his life if he chooses. He holds the power of choosing for himself new bodies -- whether on this or any other planet -- while in possession of his old form, that he generally preserves for purposes of his own." We know that Judge was not such an adept, however, there was change in his vehicles at the later phase of his life. In a letter to him in 1886, HPB wrote: "The trouble with you is that you do not know the great change that came to pass in you a few years ago. Others have occasionally their astrals changed & replaced by those of Adepts (as of elementaries) & they influence the outer, and the higher man. With you, it is the NIRMANAKAYA not the 'astral' that blended with your astral. Hence the dual nature and fighting." The hint that you quoted seems to suggest that this adept *reincarnated* both as *new Judge* and Raja. Visanu From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:54:34 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate >>In a message dated 98-02-21 08:49:51 EST, you write: >> ><< the >> personality of W. Q. Judge was not the Raja, it is his Higher Ego that >> included the latter as one of its rays >> >> >This sounds like some sort of group soul concept. I thought that humans were >individualized spiritual entities. > Humans are NOT individualized entities, spiritual or otherwise. There is a host of "monads" within each of us. This idea is slowly catching on in modern psychology, but has been taught in Mahayana Buddhism for centuries. According to Jung, for example, the ego is only one of many "complexes" within the psyche. Another complex is the Self, which equates to the inner divinity or inner god or Higher Self or Holy Guardian Angel within each of us. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:53:14 PST From: "David Green" Subject: W Judge to K Tingley re dead Mrs Blavatsky communications Letter handwritten by W Judge. Original at Point Loma Archives & printed in "O E Library Critic" Octo 1932. "[Jan] 5th [1895] on the train [from N Y to Chicago] Dear Purple [Mrs Tingley] Just as I was leaving some foreign letters came & I sent his letter so you could see how he is. I wish you would get those glasses I spoke of as you do not like to read with what you have. You ought to see how he is now, for he is either lying on purpose in the letter or speaking his heart. I think the latter. I do not know what proof he wants or would accept. You see he has not taken well what I said as to an anonymous letter. He may tell it to all the rest & thus prevent their sending any. In the other letter is one from the printer who saw prince long ago-----I told you of him-----He tirades agst the Hdqr's crowd like anything. Now about this Spanish idea. It's a good one-----but. It will raise a lot of ideas & talk. It will raise some jealousy. She [Mrs Blavatsky] was right in saying, as she said today that she did not mean to exclude the rest of Europe and that those now in the work in Spain had not used all efforts. They have not. Now the prominent man there has not accepted the order. Would it be well to tell him what she has said? It looks to me like a good idea. He does believe in HPB and R will certainly have no such message for him. If you think well of this plan I will write to him from Chicago. They report that the R crowd in London are now beginning to pretend to hear from Master. They will have revelations soon. They intend to try & show tht HPB changed her opinion of me in 1891. I shall have you in mind every day. Why dont you put down briefly things you get & not have them all lost. Well the train jolts & I stop. It seems singular the Truth does not come. Why do you suppose? Good night I forgot that small bottle for gargle----- as usual. But I [here is inserted astrological sign Aries. W Judge born in sign Aries] have the white oil. Nasty." I'll let JHE give context then we newcomers wont be misleading or mislead. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:38:06 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: The T.S. and New Acropopis Following is the text from two letters regarding the New Acropolis and the T.S. which I have a photocopy of. In reading the letter, the following picture is painted: The letters describe a dynamic couple that attracted many young people to Theosophy as national members of their T.S. Section. They accepted HPB but not later theosophical writers. Because they presented themselves as "instructors" or having special knowledge, and opposed the authority of their National Section, they were expelled and founded two large and thriving sister organizations, no longer associated with the T.S. It would probably take both members of New Acropolis and of the T.S. at the time to tell us the full story of what happened then. Meanwhile, we're left wondering ... Are the New Acropolis and Hastinapura organizations to be considered as part of the Theosophical Movement, in the same sense as we include the T.S. Adyar, T.S. Pasadena, ULT, and Temple of the People? If so, we should learn more about them. If not, then why? Because they are alleged to have far-right political connections? Do we know that these connections are true, and not false charges? And ... are all connections to politics bad? If so, then we should also reject groups connected to far-left politics too. (The general rule as I've learned it is that politics and theosophical groups don't mix, although every individual may follow his/her own political persuasion.) What does everyone else think? -- Eldon ---- [Undated typewritten letter] To all General Secretaries of the Theosophical Society in Europe: In connection with the activities of the 'New Acropolis', the Executive Committee of the European Federation recommends that General Secretaries publish in their theosophical magazines and newsletters to members the following communique: > A WARNING > > The Council of the European Federation of Theosophical Societies > requests us to draw the attention of all TS members to the > following: > > In spite of certain appearances and allegations, in spite of > official objects ostensibly similar to those of the Theosophical > Society and in spite of references to H. P. Blavatsky and the > late President Sri Ram, the organization known under the name > 'New Acropolis' and founded by a former member of the > Theosophical Society in the Argentine is fundamentally distinct > from our movement. > > Careful study of its activities and of the spirit they express > obliges us to dissociate ourselves formally from that > organization and to refrain from cooperating in any way with it, > in order to avoid very awkward confusion arising in people's > minds. ---- [Attached letter, typewritten with handwritten corrections, bearing the printed letterhead:] > THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY > ADYAR, MADRAS 20 > INDIA > > SOCIEDAD THEOSOFICA > IN ARGENTINA > SANTIAGO 320 - 2000 ROSARIO > > SECTRETARIO GENERAL ---- To the Vice-Chairman of the European Council Dr. H. Van Der Hecht 166 Rue de la Cambre B-1200 Brussels BELGIUM Dear Dr. Van Der Hecht: By means of the present letter we are answering your kind of 2-2-82 which reached us just in time we have our vacation time in the activities; afterwards we received the visit of our International President Mrs. Radha Burnier. We hope you'll excuse us of such delay in answering your kind letter. We send now the required information: Mr. Livraga joined to the Theosophical Society in Argentine many years ago, when he was a young student of Theosophy. He got married with a young student, Ada Albrecht who later founded the New Acropolis together with him. Since the beginning he showed indubitable qualities of leader, attracting many boys and girls. It was obvious that he supported a very particular point of view of Theosophy very different from that held in general in those days. His methods for teaching Theosophy were not the usual in Branches of the Theosophical Society. The match Livraga-Albrecht kept their activities for some years, and we all say clearly how flew up and increased that phenomenon as a movement inside the major movement of the Theosophical Society. Then they began to bring over an increasing number of boys and girls to the Theosophical Society as "unattached members", it is to say, not belonging to any Branch. The Sectional authorities alarmed by that increasing and stronger day by day performance saw it like a tentative of grabbing the Theosophical Society in Argentine, this circumstance obliged the authorities of the Section to make a change in our Statutes in order that those new members had to belong to some Branch of Buenos Aires city, place of events and place where those influenced members lived. The controlled income of new members ceased and Livraga entered upon a conflictive period in his connection with the Sectional Authorities; this period was relatively short, it burst out in a trial against the Society it Argentine promoted by Mr. Livraga because of hypothetical violations of national laws. The trial was short, once presented the defense by the Section it was correctly declared innocent of charges and exonerated. When the verdict of the Justice was known Mr. Livraga was expelled from the Theosophical Society in Argentina. He never was General Secretary of the Argentine Section nor ANY OTHER. Here we detail some strokes of his particular dispositions which were emphasized after his expelling of the Society: 1. Livraga's theosophical devotion was a strong attachment expressly to H.P.B. with exclusion of the leaders who followed her. 2. New Acropolis was established as an academy of theosophical and philosophical studies with definite subject matter and grades. 3. He and his wife acquired from the beginning a character, a temper of "instructors" assuming a strong "spiritual authority". 4. There are many evidences about the real nature of that institution which was internally connected with extremism of the ultra right and Nazism. 5. Those and many others evidences that we omit show that he was never suitable to the structure of the Theosophical Society which never could support such disposition. Mr. Livraga left this country six or seven years ago to get established in Spain, he is suspected of leaving the country for political or pseudo-political reasons and in a hurry. On the other hand, the match Livraga-Albrecht broke up, separated and Mrs. Livraga established a movement of similar characteristics to New Acropolis called Hastinapura, apparently without extremism or political connotations. New Acropolis grew over iberoamerican countries, it offers an interesting attraction for youth because of its teaching plans and dynamic structures. There are nearly no adults in those two movements. We repeat that Livraga-Albrecht are both leaders and posses a very strong magnetic attraction. They have tried to infiltrate in the Theosophical Society in several places maybe in order to make use of its structure for their purposes, maybe to destroy the Theosophical Society, nevertheless this is a supposition. Some material from our register books: > EXPULSION FROM THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OF > Mr. Jorge Angel Livraga > ACCORDING TO THE LIST OF MEMBERSHIP OF THE ARGENTINE SECTION > Book No. 6 - No. 3451 > > NAME: Jorge Angel Livraga > NATIONALITY: Argentine > DATE OF BIRTH: 3/9/30 > DATE HE ENTERED THE T.S.: 30/5/50 > > He entered Dharma Branch, then he went to the Peace and Harmony > Branch, afterwards he changed to the Lautaro Branch. At last he > became a "unattached member". > > TERMINATION OF MEMBERSHIP > > A National Congress expelled him from the T.S. > > REASON OF THE CANCELLATION > > Because he laid a deceitful information against the Theosophical > Society before the General Attorney for the Province of Santa Fe. > > REMARKS > > The National Council of the T.S. in Argentina decided to stop > the entrance of "unattached members" on 6/8/61 until the Rules > were amended. (See pages 214, 215, 217, 219, and 222 in the > Records of the National Council for the year 1961.) > > As An unattached member Mr. J. A. Livraga organized and > established a group with the name of the Argentine Theosophical > Youth Group, that had nothing to do with the T.S. in Argentina > (without any link in the whole with the real "Argentine > Theosophical Youth" which was legally led by Mr. Luis Spairani). > That "private organization" of Mr. Livraga had its meetings on > Amenabar 863 (Buenos Aries). > > Since 1959 until 1962 Mr. Livraga, held constantly attacks > against the Argentine T.S. and its established authorities. The > last sentence from the State Attorney was completely favorable to > the T.S.; because the information he laid against the T.S. was > lacking of reason Mr. Livraga had to pay all the costs of the > lawsuit. > > World President Mr. Sri Ram was informed about the case and he > answered to the General Secretary Brother Nazareno Rimini. > > To the new Rules of the T.S. which were approved according to > Decree No. 01355 of 26/11/64 by the Higher Government of Santa > Fe, it is established that the T.S. in Argentina is not allowed > to hold "unattached members", except in particular cases. > > Of all the components of Mr. Livraga's group, seven left him and > came in the Fraternity Branch of the T.S. We are always at your entire disposal. We hope this information will be useful for you. In opportunity of the visit of our International President we have give her a copy of this letter. Kindly receive our warm greetings. (signed) Pauline de Palmeri, Secretary (signed) Juan Carlos Palmeri, Secretary General From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:56:15 -0600 From: "Nancy L Malcom" Subject: Re: thoughts about Theosophy, the TS and the ULT Is there anyway to find ULT meeting groups in a set area? I live in Missouri, USA and unless they advertise in the phone book or newspaper, how do you locate one? The closest "big" cities to me are Joplin and KC and in Kansas- Pittsburg or Fort Scott. Any suggestions? ---------- > From: "Dallas TenBroeck" > Subject: Re: thoughts about Theosophy, the TS and the ULT > Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 7:08 PM > > Feb 21 1998 > > Dallas writes: > > Dear Thoa:O and Doss and friends: > > As you see seeds of thought are sent out and sometimes written -- > no one should expect response -- but, the effects last wherever > they fall. > > It is no use trying to move either individuals or groups. > Individuals constitute groups and either they move dynamically, > (with or without sympathy) or they, as individuals, allow > themselves to be swallowed and moved by the inertia of the group. > No one "escapes" the karma of their choice. Even not choosing is > "a choice." > > In this case we have THEOSOPHY. As I sense it most wonder what > Theosophy is, exactly. They like the idea of brotherhood. They > like the idea, perhaps of an invisible and strange world, (within > and behind and perhaps interactive with the visible physical), > but they are not sure as to what it is or how it works, perhaps, > even, they do not want to know ! Some have come to Theosophy > from "spiritualism, channeling, trance experiences," etc... and > like the explanations which seem to satisfy the idea of the > personal links through curiosity and a desire to probe the > invisible, and, perhaps hear something valuable from those > energies that claim to be the deceased ... and so on ... > > When confronted by the concept of an immovable LAW and Laws that > move the whole of Nature, they either accept, investigate, or > reject -- Why should I be ruled by anything ? Why should I not > be able to escape ? Why should I be, or am, punished ? Why > should I not believe that I have heard a message from --- > or ----! > > Some rebel against being "immortal." I would rather live this > one happy/miserable or whatever life and not be bothered by the > strange views of Theosophy! But, a lingering doubt itches: > Perhaps what Theosophy says is true ! Perhaps someone will come > along who can find a path that shifts from one secure foothold to > another, and I may learn to skip with them ! Or, perhaps there > is a foolish God up there who likes to be praised and prayed to, > like some proud and ambitious mortals enjoy ! What is true ? In > any case, Theosophy is tolerant and brotherly and I can enjoy > being amused by the writings of those who think it valuable to > write on such matters ! > > And, so on... a thousand other reasons and motives exist... None > of these are "wrong," nor should they be derided. It is only > that they shy away from the hard work of finding out with > certainty what is true. Authorities are then sought for, and > when selected their dicta is accepted, or followed, without much > further critical thought. Of such things are politics and > leadership constructed. Theosophy on the other hand places each > individual on his own responsibility. No one can be blamed > except ones' self for bad or ill advised choices and decisions. > > So that is why I am of the opinion that we ought to let the > various "Theosophical bodies" settle their own internal affairs, > and let those who want to search for Theosophical values do their > searching, knowing that there are always some who are willing to > listen and respond to honest inquiry. We can all grow in wisdom > if we get together and work constructively. > > In another positing Doss you said that you could be welcomed at > either a T S or a ULT Lodge if you visited. True. The T S might > ask for your affiliation. The ULT will not. > > The ULT has a Declaration of Policy which reads (in part): > > "the policy of this Lodge is independent devotion to the cause > of Theosophy, without professing attachment to any Theosophical > organization...It holds that the unassailable basis for union > among Theosophists, wherever and however situated, is "similarity > of aim, purpose and teaching," and therefore has neither > Constitution, By-Laws nor Officers, the sole bond between its > Associates being that basis... > > It regards as theosophists all who are engaged in the true > service of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, > condition or organization... > > It welcomes to its Association all who are in accord with its > declared purposes and who desire to fit themselves, by study and > otherwise, to be the better able to help and teach others... > > It is loyal to the Great Founders of the Theosophical Movement > but does not concern itself with dissensions or differences of > individual opinion... > > The work it has on hand...is the dissemination of the Fundamental > Principles of the Philosophy of Theosophy and the exemplification > in practice of those principles, through a truer realization of > the SELF; a profounder conviction of Universal Brotherhood. > ...." > > Any one can make use of the ULT facilities. No one asks who a > visitor is, or what their affiliations may be. No dues or > contributions are ever solicited. Each ULT Lodge or "Study > Group" has its own independent schedule of activities and study, > and if it maintains a library, the literature there is available > freely for those who want to read or purchase. One of the prime > reasons for the existence of the ULT is to keep available and in > print the "original teachings of Theosophy" as "recorded in the > writings of H.P.Blavatsky and Wm. Q. Judge." > > The ULT exists since 1909 on this basis. Its Declaration is the > only documentary basis for its existence. It does not solicit > membership. Its doors and facilities are open free to all who > seek and study and wish to help others with their efforts. 90 > years of work lie behind the many who have so loosely, yet > individual, have strongly joined together, "as they have decided > for themselves," to support this kind of independent and > inclusive work where all, without any restrictions, are welcome. > > I mention this because it is such a contrast to the T S. Each > have their place in the scheme of things and the measure of their > value is to be decided only in terms of the inner progress that > each individual achieves. There is serious work afoot, as I see > it. > > It should be well understood that these are my own personal > views. > > > Dallas > > From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" > Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 11:10 AM > Subject: Miami > > >Doss: > > > >>The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and > credibility. > >>Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we > can all put > >>our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from > anyone is > >>welcome. Please provide feed back here! > SNIP SNIP > SNIP > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:44:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Ernest Pelletier" Subject: Excommunication of TS in Canada On the subject of T.S. in Canada being excommunicated in 1991, there has been much speculation, but the real story has yet to be told. Joy Mills was present at the Meeting of the General Council which voted to excommunicate T.S. in Canada. Perhaps she could supply more information. The question of changes to the By-Laws of T.S. in Canada was a minor technicality which was used against Canadian Section, and which could have been discussed but no attempt was ever made to do so. There is more to this excommunication than has been stated to date, (which the international organization noted as a ‘dissociation’ on the part of T.S. in Canada). Adyar likely had other reasons for wanting to expel Canadian Section. Following HPB’s death there have been two factions in the theosophical movement, those who followed Besant and those who followed WQ Judge. The answer perhaps lies in the promotion of one over the other. Since the 1920's there have been two theosophical organizations in Canada: Canadian Federation and T.S. in Canada. It was mentioned that Canada was split into a french section and an english section; t! his is not necessarily true. Both Canadian Section and Canadian Federation have had lodges in Quebec -- language was not the issue. Jerry Hejia-Ekins’ observations and synopsis are correct, and Ramadoss puts forth some very good questions. What was the real reason Adyar threw Canadian Section out? What was it about TS in Canada that led Adyar to sever all connections? It was no secret that Canadian Section was the ‘grit in the oyster’ that caused irritation. Adyar has a history of spewing out organizations that don’t conform. This attitude has been prevalent since the days of Olcott when he wanted to rule with an iron fist (via official notices, etc.) and the ongoing differences between himself and Judge. There appears to have always been a greater concern with the survival of the organization than the Teachings as presented by HPB. Ernest From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:52:18 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: politics and the esoteric In a message dated 98-02-22 16:11:29 EST, you write: << politics and theosophical groups don't mix, although every individual may follow his/her own political persuasion >> I agree. Benjamin Creme's SHARE magazine is very political, and after subscribing to it since 1982, I finally had to let my subscription expire last year out of exasperation. It is the only esoteric magazine I know of that has been described by some reviewers as being "political". It has a far left and unabashedly socialist slant. At times it seemed to be almost a conduit for the far left wing of the Labour Party. Being a Libertarian, I found its statist views obnoxious. Those whose political views differ from mine would probably think it wonderful. On principle, I do not feel that political idealogy and esotericism and/or the occult mix. A well-known and notorious example of statism (in the form of fascism) mixing with the occult is, of course, Nationalist Socialist phenomena, particularly in the form of the SS, which was in many ways a mystical cult. There are many books on the subject like the "The Spear" by Trevor Ravenscroft. I recommend the 4-video set entitled "The Occult History of the Third Reich" (ISBN1-55529-659-9) produced by Video Treasures. Probably about 4 hours viewing time. HPB and the SD are mentioned several times in this series. Hitler suppressed the Anthroposophical Society and the TS because he didn't want any occult rivals. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:12:41 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Excommunication of TS in Canada At 09:44 PM 2/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >On the subject of T.S. in Canada being excommunicated in 1991, there has been much speculation, but the real story has yet to be told. > >Joy Mills was present at the Meeting of the General Council which voted to excommunicate T.S. in Canada. Perhaps she could supply more information. The question of changes to the By-Laws of T.S. in Canada was a minor technicality which was used against Canadian Section, and which could have been discussed but no attempt was ever made to do so. There is more to this excommunication than has been stated to date, (which the international organization noted as a ‘dissociation’ on the part of T.S. in Canada). Adyar likely had other reasons for wanting to expel Canadian Section. Following HPB’s death there have been two factions in the theosophical movement, those who followed Besant and those who followed WQ Judge. The answer perhaps lies in the promotion of one over the other. Since the 1920's there have been two theosophical organizations in Canada: Canadian Federation and T.S. in Canada. It was mentioned that Canada was split into a french section and an english section; t! >! >his is not necessarily true. Both Canadian Section and Canadian Federation have had lodges in Quebec -- language was not the issue. > >Jerry Hejia-Ekins’ observations and synopsis are correct, and Ramadoss puts forth some very good questions. What was the real reason Adyar threw Canadian Section out? What was it about TS in Canada that led Adyar to sever all connections? It was no secret that Canadian Section was the ‘grit in the oyster’ that caused irritation. Adyar has a history of spewing out organizations that don’t conform. This attitude has been prevalent since the days of Olcott when he wanted to rule with an iron fist (via official notices, etc.) and the ongoing differences between himself and Judge. There appears to have always been a greater concern with the survival of the organization than the Teachings as presented by HPB. > >Ernest MKR writes: Thanks for the information. It would be nice if we can find out the "real" reason for disassociation. On the other hand, one may want find out more info about Denmark, Yugoslavia and other countries where there have been problems, some leading to cancellation of charter others not. An analysis of the fact may give us an idea of the "real" underlying issue(s) that may be common to all these countries and none of the TS leaders are willing to speak up. You are right about the technicality issue. Sometime ago someone mentioned that in France they do not fully comply with all the rules. But no one dares to take action because the French have a leverage via Le Droit Humain connection and can respond in kind. Historians will find all of this interesting. My 0.02 mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:37:27 -0600 From: "Marcheta Henry" Subject: Re: thoughts about Theosophy, the TS and the ULT Dear Friends in Theosophy, In regard to study groups located in Missouri: We have group study here in Weaubleau, MO. on the last Friday of each month, or private meetings for those who can't make it on that date. You can contact me here at my e-mail address almost any time during the day or evening. Please feel welcome to contact me. Marcheta @ Juno . com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:41:49 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:address for a suggestion Brenda S. Tucker wrote: > Sorry, I forgot to mention that mail should be sent to > > nl-l@theosophia.org > > and I believe you just ask that your name be added to the list, but it's > possible that you have to at least be a member of the National Lodge of Yes. There are two lists, ts-l, for any member of the Theosophcal Society, and nl-l, for members of the National Lodge, only. (I am not a member of the National Lodge, devoting quite enough of my time to the New York Lodge). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:59:54 +1200 From: "Peter R Calvert" Subject: Billeting for ISSSEEM conference in Boulder, CO Hi, I am planning to attend the ISSSEEM conference in Boulder, Colerado, in June 18-24 this year, so am investigating accomodation options. I would be grateful to learn the address and contact details of the TSA Lodge in Boulder if there is one, or any other way to obtain economical accomodation there for my wife and myself, for the duration of the conference. I hope someone can help us out. Thanks. Peter, TS Hamilton Lodge, New Zealand Peter R. Calvert | There are no second-hand adepts! pcalvert@hort.cri.nz | Joy Mills. T.S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:30:45 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:address for a suggestion At 11:41 PM 2/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >Brenda S. Tucker wrote: > >> Sorry, I forgot to mention that mail should be sent to >> >> nl-l@theosophia.org >> >> and I believe you just ask that your name be added to the list, but it's >> possible that you have to at least be a member of the National Lodge of > > Yes. There are two lists, ts-l, for any member of the Theosophcal >Society, and nl-l, for members of the National Lodge, only. (I am not a >member of the National Lodge, devoting quite enough of my time to the New >York Lodge). > > Bart Lidofsky Thanks for the info. There is also an annual dues for NL. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:05:38 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization Yes, and John Mead not quoting you directly is a good example of why the internet is an even playing field. You can always repost your original statement when you find yourself misquoted, and clarify your position when mis-understood. . See, on the internet, no one can shout you down or cut you off. You will always have an equal opportunity to make your point, and those who agree or disagree with you can make theirs. So to return to my original point, since the internet is an equal playing field, there is no danger of a Wheaton representative's contributions being twisted (as you suggested) because they will always have a recourse. jhe Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > > Bart, I don't believe that the scenario you describe here is possible. > > But John Mead did not quote me directly. What he stated was in fact an > inference and not a quote. Both he and I have accepted some blame in the > misunderstanding. > > Bart Lidofsky > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:18:53 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge --------------E40B98A4D406EEEC200642F0 Dear Dallas, I'm sure you have heard of it, but probably in a different context. It concerned the "Back to Blavatsky" movement that arose in Krotona (Hollywood) in the late teens. B. P. Wadia was involved in it too. His 1921 resignation pamphlet alludes to his efforts. Jerry Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Dear Jerry: Thanks. What is the "committee of 1400" - > curiosity, I have not heard of this so > far. > Dal > > From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 11:51 AM From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:42:13 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Dear David, Obviously, you are not only trying to get me to do your research for you, but you are also trying to manipulate me into a debate with some party not known to me. Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing your game. Find another sucker to entertain you and to do your work for you. Regarding the Rajah/Judge issue, read my last VERY carefully, and you will find that I was not saying that Judge was not identified as Rajah. I'll leave it to you to figure out what that means. If you can't, then I'm sorry about that too. JHE David Green wrote: > I recd. 4 emails from > readers who declare > W Judge was known as----Rajah. > Among references were > "Theosophy"---May 1896---- > > "the Rajah---as the real > W.Q.J. was so often called" > wrote "T." > & > "He was called by some > The Rajah." > wrote E Neresheimer. > > I don't possess Theosophy > journal but J Belcher > promises to send issues > of April thru June 1896 > full of tribute > articles on W Judge > soon after his death. > > I quote from another corresp. The > note has relevant details------ > > >collating the material. Yes, he thinks he > >knows the esoteric truth about W.Q.J. but he > >can't even get the exoteric, historical facts > >straight! Judge was residing in New York in > >early Jan. 1895 (PATH magazine Feb. 1895 documents this). > >He was also known to his intimates as Rajah. > >(I will send you one E.S.T. circular of 1896 > >showing this.) Also he confuses a *printed* > >circular with a *handwritten* letter. There's more! > >Be sure to write John. I think I gave you his > >address in my last. He has a treasure > >chest of W.Q.J.'s papers. He will be straight > >with you and won't give you that kind of > >crap about too esoteric. I'll photocopy the items > >you requested and send airmail Monday. Also you > > More W Judge/Mrs Blavatsky > documents to follow. Have > decided to have web site > with all W Judge papers > I can find on these > matters. > > D Green > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 01:53:53 -0600 From: "Govert Schuller Subject: Re:politics and the esoteric >I agree. Benjamin Creme's SHARE magazine is very political, and after >subscribing to it since 1982, I finally had to let my subscription expire last >year out of exasperation. It is the only esoteric magazine I know of that has >been described by some reviewers as being "political". It has a far left and >unabashedly socialist slant. At times it seemed to be almost a conduit for the >far left wing of the Labour Party. Being a Libertarian, I found its statist >views obnoxious. Those whose political views differ from mine would probably >think it wonderful. On principle, I do not feel that political idealogy and >esotericism and/or the occult mix. > I'm interested to investigate the view of Creme on AB's and CWL's World Teacher Project with Krishnamurti and allegedly Maitreya. Can you provide me with copies of one or more articles addressing this? I pulled from the internet an article from Share Jan/Feb 1996 by Bette Stockbauer on K. to which was attached a quote from creme on K. Is there more? Thanks in advance Govert From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:59:15 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > So to return to my original point, since the internet is an equal playing > field, there is no danger of a Wheaton representative's contributions being > twisted (as you suggested) because they will always have a recourse. Except that John Mead does not let his feelings blind him to the facts. Let's say that I quoted: Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > and just last week, I despoiled a young goat How do you prove that you never said such a thing, or if someone uses the above, how do you prove that it was designed as an absurd example and not a genuine admission? Bart Lidofsky P.S. The despoiling young goats reference comes from writer Marion Zimmer Bradley, who created it for a story where she wanted to create a ridiculous but vicious regional slur ("You're a despoiler of young goats!" "No, YOU'RE a despoiler of young goats!" The punch line was that the villain of the piece actually WAS a despoiler of young goats. I have since used it when I wanted to give an example of an accusation which is so ridiculous that nobody in their right mind would take it seriously. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:56:40 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Dear Jerry: Recently a kindly soul sent me a writeup on Wadia and I hope to post it soon. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:32:11 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge JHE, What is problem? Since last fall I've been reading & studying W Judge. I've purchased books, recd material thru inter-library sharing, & yes, I've asked for help in locating material on this forum. Persons senting public & private messages to me have been helpful. Some extremely generous. But you are exception. You dislike my questions & accuse me of wanting you to do my research. Now you give new accusation. If you dont want to share info then DONT SHARE. But why do you write what appears to me as insulting & condescending comments. Several theosophists have copied rare books on W Judge for me. No charge. They didn't lecture me but helped. One man emailed me you have library & archives of Judge material. I wonder how open & accessible your material is when you can write such unfriendly postings? I close unpleasant subject.I thank everyone who's given info & material & I'll continue to post documents as I find & rec. them. I also plan to create web site when I learn HTML. Any recommendations on good web site provider? D Green >Dear David, > >Obviously, you are not only trying to get me to do your research for >you, but you are also trying to manipulate me into a debate with some >party not known to me. Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing your >game. Find another sucker to entertain you and to do your work for >you. Regarding the Rajah/Judge issue, read my last VERY carefully, and >you will find that I was not saying that Judge was not identified as >Rajah. I'll leave it to you to figure out what that means. If you >can't, then I'm sorry about that too. > >JHE > >David Green wrote: > >> I recd. 4 emails from >> readers who declare >> W Judge was known as----Rajah. >> Among references were >> "Theosophy"---May 1896---- >> >> "the Rajah---as the real >> W.Q.J. was so often called" >> wrote "T." >> & >> "He was called by some >> The Rajah." >> wrote E Neresheimer. >> >> I don't possess Theosophy >> journal but J Belcher >> promises to send issues >> of April thru June 1896 >> full of tribute >> articles on W Judge >> soon after his death. >> >> I quote from another corresp. The >> note has relevant details------ >> >> >collating the material. Yes, he thinks he >> >knows the esoteric truth about W.Q.J. but he >> >can't even get the exoteric, historical facts >> >straight! Judge was residing in New York in >> >early Jan. 1895 (PATH magazine Feb. 1895 documents this). >> >He was also known to his intimates as Rajah. >> >(I will send you one E.S.T. circular of 1896 >> >showing this.) Also he confuses a *printed* >> >circular with a *handwritten* letter. There's more! >> >Be sure to write John. I think I gave you his >> >address in my last. He has a treasure >> >chest of W.Q.J.'s papers. He will be straight >> >with you and won't give you that kind of >> >crap about too esoteric. I'll photocopy the items >> >you requested and send airmail Monday. Also you >> >> More W Judge/Mrs Blavatsky >> documents to follow. Have >> decided to have web site >> with all W Judge papers >> I can find on these >> matters. >> >> D Green >> >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:52:37 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge All of us are interested in the historial matters relating to all Theosophical pioneers. Please keep us informed and post any questions you may have and some one who has the info may be able to respond. mkr ================================= At 07:32 AM 2/23/98 PST, you wrote: >JHE, >What is problem? Since last >fall I've been reading & studying W >Judge. I've purchased books, recd >material thru inter-library sharing, >& yes, I've asked for help >in locating material >on this forum. Persons senting >public & private messages to me >have been helpful. Some extremely >generous. But you are exception. >You dislike my questions >& accuse me of wanting >you to do my research. Now you >give new accusation. If you >dont want to share info then >DONT SHARE. But why do you write >what appears to me as insulting & >condescending comments. >Several theosophists have copied >rare books on W Judge for me. >No charge. They >didn't lecture me but helped. >One man emailed me you have library & >archives of Judge material. I >wonder how open & accessible your >material is when you can write such >unfriendly postings? > >I close unpleasant subject.I thank >everyone who's given info & >material & I'll continue to >post documents as I find & rec. them. >I also plan to create web site >when I learn HTML. Any recommendations >on good web site provider? > >D Green > >>Dear David, >> >>Obviously, you are not only trying to get me to do your research for >>you, but you are also trying to manipulate me into a debate with some >>party not known to me. Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing your >>game. Find another sucker to entertain you and to do your work for >>you. Regarding the Rajah/Judge issue, read my last VERY carefully, and >>you will find that I was not saying that Judge was not identified as >>Rajah. I'll leave it to you to figure out what that means. If you >>can't, then I'm sorry about that too. >> >>JHE >> >> >>David Green wrote: >> >>> I recd. 4 emails from >>> readers who declare >>> W Judge was known as----Rajah. >>> Among references were >>> "Theosophy"---May 1896---- >>> >>> "the Rajah---as the real >>> W.Q.J. was so often called" >>> wrote "T." >>> & >>> "He was called by some >>> The Rajah." >>> wrote E Neresheimer. >>> >>> I don't possess Theosophy >>> journal but J Belcher >>> promises to send issues >>> of April thru June 1896 >>> full of tribute >>> articles on W Judge >>> soon after his death. >>> >>> I quote from another corresp. The >>> note has relevant details------ >>> >>> >collating the material. Yes, he thinks he >>> >knows the esoteric truth about W.Q.J. but he >>> >can't even get the exoteric, historical facts >>> >straight! Judge was residing in New York in >>> >early Jan. 1895 (PATH magazine Feb. 1895 documents this). >>> >He was also known to his intimates as Rajah. >>> >(I will send you one E.S.T. circular of 1896 >>> >showing this.) Also he confuses a *printed* >>> >circular with a *handwritten* letter. There's more! >>> >Be sure to write John. I think I gave you his >>> >address in my last. He has a treasure >>> >chest of W.Q.J.'s papers. He will be straight >>> >with you and won't give you that kind of >>> >crap about too esoteric. I'll photocopy the items >>> >you requested and send airmail Monday. Also you >>> >>> More W Judge/Mrs Blavatsky >>> documents to follow. Have >>> decided to have web site >>> with all W Judge papers >>> I can find on these >>> matters. >>> >>> D Green >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:43:03 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization Dear Bart, I see your point. One can indeed fabricate a statement that was never made in an email exchange. However, the original (correct) message had already been posted to x number of subscribers and is archived by the moderator. For instance, in this case, I can always go back to Eldon (the theos-talk moderator) and ask him to repost my original message--thus exposing your quote to be a fabrication thus damaging your credibility instead of mine. If I were to find that Eldon is for some bizarre reason part of your conspiracy, I can always request the readers who archive their own copies (some do) to repost the true quote. Anything you post on email continues to exist somewhere, even after you had erased your own copy. So even in this extreme example, there is always a way to bring out the truth in this media. So I think the real reason why Wheaton does not want a representative spokesperson on email is because they will not be able to control the questions and criticisms they may receive on this media. If they receive a question or criticism intended to be published in the AT/Quest magazine, they have the option of: publishing it as it is, ignoring it, or publishing it in an edited or altered form. On the Internet they don't have the advantage of these choices. If they were to unfairly edit or alter a question or statement for reply, the questioner is likely to call them on it, and he/she will have the original post in the archives for proof. In other words, Wheaton will have to deal with everyone on a level playing field if they were to choose to enter this media through a neutral site like theos-talk. At present, all of their media of communication (AT/Quest, Messenger, letters to members, ts-l, nl-l) are completely under their control. Why would they want to have it any other way? jhe Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > > So to return to my original point, since the internet is an equal playing > > field, there is no danger of a Wheaton representative's contributions being > > twisted (as you suggested) because they will always have a recourse. > > Except that John Mead does not let his feelings blind him to the facts. Let's > say that I quoted: > > Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > and just last week, I despoiled a young goat > > How do you prove that you never said such a thing, or if someone uses the > above, how do you prove that it was designed as an absurd example and not a > genuine admission? > > Bart Lidofsky > > P.S. The despoiling young goats reference comes from writer Marion Zimmer > Bradley, who created it for a story where she wanted to create a ridiculous but > vicious regional slur ("You're a despoiler of young goats!" "No, YOU'RE a > despoiler of young goats!" The punch line was that the villain of the piece > actually WAS a despoiler of young goats. I have since used it when I wanted to > give an example of an accusation which is so ridiculous that nobody in their > right mind would take it seriously. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:33:15 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Thanks, M K Ramadoss, for your kind words & support. D Green >Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:52:37 -0600 >From: "M K Ramadoss" >Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and > the discarnate Judge > >All of us are interested in the historial matters relating to all >Theosophical pioneers. Please keep us informed and post any questions you >may have and some one who has the info may be able to respond. > >mkr >================================= > >At 07:32 AM 2/23/98 PST, you wrote: >>JHE, >>What is problem? Since last >>fall I've been reading & studying W >>Judge. I've purchased books, recd >>material thru inter-library sharing, >>& yes, I've asked for help >>in locating material >>on this forum. Persons senting >>public & private messages to me >>have been helpful. Some extremely >>generous. But you are exception. >>You dislike my questions >>& accuse me of wanting >>you to do my research. Now you >>give new accusation. If you >>dont want to share info then >>DONT SHARE. But why do you write >>what appears to me as insulting & >>condescending comments. >>Several theosophists have copied >>rare books on W Judge for me. >>No charge. They >>didn't lecture me but helped. >>One man emailed me you have library & >>archives of Judge material. I >>wonder how open & accessible your >>material is when you can write such >>unfriendly postings? >> >>I close unpleasant subject.I thank >>everyone who's given info & >>material & I'll continue to >>post documents as I find & rec. them. >>I also plan to create web site >>when I learn HTML. Any recommendations >>on good web site provider? >> >>D Green >> >> >> >>>Dear David, >>> >>>Obviously, you are not only trying to get me to do your research for >>>you, but you are also trying to manipulate me into a debate with some >>>party not known to me. Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing your >>>game. Find another sucker to entertain you and to do your work for >>>you. Regarding the Rajah/Judge issue, read my last VERY carefully, and >>>you will find that I was not saying that Judge was not identified as >>>Rajah. I'll leave it to you to figure out what that means. If you >>>can't, then I'm sorry about that too. >>> >>>JHE >>> >>> >>>David Green wrote: >>> >>>> I recd. 4 emails from >>>> readers who declare >>>> W Judge was known as----Rajah. >>>> Among references were >>>> "Theosophy"---May 1896---- >>>> >>>> "the Rajah---as the real >>>> W.Q.J. was so often called" >>>> wrote "T." >>>> & >>>> "He was called by some >>>> The Rajah." >>>> wrote E Neresheimer. >>>> >>>> I don't possess Theosophy >>>> journal but J Belcher >>>> promises to send issues >>>> of April thru June 1896 >>>> full of tribute >>>> articles on W Judge >>>> soon after his death. >>>> >>>> I quote from another corresp. The >>>> note has relevant details------ >>>> >>>> >collating the material. Yes, he thinks he >>>> >knows the esoteric truth about W.Q.J. but he >>>> >can't even get the exoteric, historical facts >>>> >straight! Judge was residing in New York in >>>> >early Jan. 1895 (PATH magazine Feb. 1895 documents this). >>>> >He was also known to his intimates as Rajah. >>>> >(I will send you one E.S.T. circular of 1896 >>>> >showing this.) Also he confuses a *printed* >>>> >circular with a *handwritten* letter. There's more! >>>> >Be sure to write John. I think I gave you his >>>> >address in my last. He has a treasure >>>> >chest of W.Q.J.'s papers. He will be straight >>>> >with you and won't give you that kind of >>>> >crap about too esoteric. I'll photocopy the items >>>> >you requested and send airmail Monday. Also you >>>> >>>> More W Judge/Mrs Blavatsky >>>> documents to follow. Have >>>> decided to have web site >>>> with all W Judge papers >>>> I can find on these >>>> matters. >>>> >>>> D Green >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:57:11 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: theos-talk moderated? Jerry: >For instance, in this case, I can always go back to Eldon (the >theos-talk moderator) and ask him to repost my original message. Minor correction: theos-talk is not moderated. There is a monthly archive that can be accessed by anyone currently a subscriber using the majordomo "get" command, like sending the command get theos-talk.9802 to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com will retrieve the discussion for the current month. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:08:10 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:the saving of a life for reincarnation Feb 23 '98 Dear Brenda: In regard to your MSG to Magi42 on annihilation of the personality I found that in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, [KEY pp. 163-171] HPB gives the rationale of this and condenses the information which is at the basis of the Theosophical information on this. Please also look up pages: 94, 102-106, 157, on 107-8 immortality is discussed, 154-5 discusses self-effort in salvation, 169, 164, 129-132; the immortality of the Reincarnating EGO pp. 101-103, I think this will begin to sort out the terminology in terms of the 7 principles of man and make things much clearer -- at least it does for me. Best wishes, Dallas >From: "Brenda S Tucker" >Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 5:53 PM >Subject: the saving of a life for reincarnation >Dear Magi42: > >>*I read that immoral or evil men/women From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:14:17 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:a suggestion Feb 23 Brenda: Do not "Trust and credibility" depend on sincerity and honesty ? We can take care of our own. As to others we cannot force a reform. In all cases any reform begins from within. If there is a misapplications of the power that is vested in certain persons on an ethical or a reasonable basis, then "exposure" by those who are concerned (not always by :others") is probably the most effective method. There is a process of "stone-walling" of which the personal nature takes advantage in repelling attempts to shame it or to have it rectify itself. The process can only be instituted from within. Perhaps that is why HPB says about cases which have gone too far into useless areas: "Leave them to their Karma." Our duty seems to confine itself to noting and questioning. Reform if any can only be self-instituted. Can you think of a better way ? Dallas >From: "Brenda S Tucker" >Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 5:54 PM >Subject: a suggestion From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:51:51 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Another Person Unsubscribes Someone recently subscribed to THEOSOPHY WORLD/theos-talk, then a couple of days later unsubscribed. I wrote him and asked if he'd write a paragraph about what he found wrong/missing with the current discussion on the list, to write something if he had something helpful for people to read, and I'd post it anonymously. He said: > I find the email is cluttered with absurdities from people I find > to be idiots. Perhaps if you filtered out these nonsense letters > it would be more worthy to look at. > > These letters for the most part reflect mass ignorance about > theosophy and I find them annoying. Obviously from visitors to > your web site who have never read THE SECRET DOCTRINE or have > little experience with metaphysical or occult teachings. I can't > afford the time to delete unwanted email. I have better things > to do. Time is precious -- we don't live that long! It's something to keep in mind as we post to the list. We can be judged based upon a few days of postings. How much of what we write would be considered "noise" and subject to a quick , as compared to something worth setting aside, printing, and carefully read? How much of our writings are helpful to someone interested in and wanting to study Theosophy? There's no easy answer, and I'm not sure we could make a general rule, but perhaps 3/4 of the people that drop theos-talk still want the monthly, indicating that there's something about the mailing list that doesn't meet their needs. Maybe there's nothing we can do, perhaps it's just that the nature of mailing lists doesn't lend itself to their needs? What do others think? -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:02:47 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge Feb 23 1998 In regard to the Inner Ego of the personality named " Wm. Q. Judge." Unquestionably that Ego (the triple Monad: Atma-Buddhi-Manas) is the immortal and the common base for such a remarkable event as using a "borrowed body." If you refer to the ULT Edition of LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME, published in 1946 -- 50 years after his death -- you will find added to the basic text information concerning his life and work. On p. 246 et seq you will find the material that he gave to Jasper Niemand concerning his experiences in a "borrowed body." Of this strange event he spoke to several friends. Some mention it, naming him as they did, "the Rajah." Read this section and make a decision for yourself as to its credibility. HPB wrote an article: "ARE CHELAS MEDIUMS ?" Theosophist June 1884. Towards the end of that she writes of the rare event when an individually be so pure as to be directly influenced by his "7th Principle" -- the ATMA. Her remarkable narrative concerning the nature of the Soul-ego of Frederick III of Prussia: KARMIC VISIONS -- Lucifer, 15th June 1888 --and written a few days BEFORE his death, ought to be consulted also. In the SD I found a section in Vol. 2 where HPB refers to the "Undying Race" [ SD II 67, 275fn, 281 ] This makes for interesting and suggestive reading on the matter of soul-survival, and the heights to which one can elevate ones' self though self effort. It is also said in the SD that there exists a formative or creative power in each of us which can be awakened (by those who are pure in living) that can cause this improvement, but it takes an enormously strong will. Theosophy covers a wide field and ...... Dallas >From: "Visanu Sirichote" >Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 6:58 AM Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge >Megabeet@aol.com wrote > >><< the >> personality of W. Q. Judge was not the Raja, it is his Higher Ego that >> included the latter as one of its rays >> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:35:32 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:Solar Eclipse and Evolution of Mankind Feb 23 Eclipses and "Occult" significance. Any astronomical event has both local and world-wide effects. The planets, zodiac, and movements of the Earth, Moon and Sun together, in combination or apart and separately are all similar to the workings of a very complex but finely adjusts clock. According to HPB ( SD ) they reflect those times and cycles which bring the return of Karmic effects. Those Karmic causes may have been generated aeons ago. Some are known by us, most are not. Sages know of them and looking in the "Astral Light" see there the causes and effects of those cycles. We guess. Our "astrology" is very speculative. We refer to ancient texts, grimoires, kabalistic and Rosicrucian codexes, etc... but the key to accurate understanding remains to be proven. Take Nostradamus' dark sayings -- usually they are verified after the events, and the symbols and emblems that he used become clear retrospectively. As to the future? It is was said by a wise theosophical writer that "the clear minded and the brave" will be able to meet any karmic effects as they ought to be met: with equanimity and the certainty that Karma can adjust all effects to their causes so that all those involved may profit from them. Have we developed such an all-inclusive vision yet ? Suppose that we could see or be told the future ? Do you think that any one of us might not then take advantage of such knowledge to try to twist events to suit himself personally? And, thus, interfering with the karmic event, vitiate it ? Only those who are pure in spirit and in motive can deal with pre-cognition by letting events take care of themselves as Karma dictates. Is this fatalism? No. Since each free-will individual makes decisions based on his self-determination, knowledge and desires. Are those desires pure ? There is the real question. Are we still trying to secure some personal advantage ? If so, why ? only we can answer that to ourselves. And what about others ? Are they to be abandoned to their sad fate ? No warning ? No attempt to secure for them and advantage that we would use for ourselves ? These are some thoughts that arise considering the request -- certainly my own ideas and queries to see if there is any truth to them. Dallas >From: "Keith Price" >Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 6:40 AM >Subject: Solar Eclipse and Evolution of Mankind >Thursday the 26 will be a solar elispse. I am not sure of the time. The >Iragi invasion and bombings were timed at the new moon last time. Also in >some locations up to five planets may be visible. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:46:10 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Re:a suggestion Dallas, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about! Why me? Did my suggestion have to do with trust? What did I write that elicited this from you? At 06:14 AM 2/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Feb 23 > >Brenda: > >Do not "Trust and credibility" depend on sincerity and honesty ? > >We can take care of our own. As to others we cannot force a >reform. In all cases any reform begins from within. > >If there is a misapplications of the power that is vested in >certain persons on an ethical or a reasonable basis, then >"exposure" by those who are concerned (not always by :others") is >probably the most effective method. > >There is a process of "stone-walling" of which the personal >nature takes advantage in repelling attempts to shame it or to >have it rectify itself. The process can only be instituted from >within. > >Perhaps that is why HPB says about cases which have gone too far >into useless areas: "Leave them to their Karma." Our duty seems >to confine itself to noting and questioning. Reform if any can >only be self-instituted. > > Can you think of a better way ? >Dallas > >=============================== > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Brenda S Tucker" >Date: Saturday, February 21, 1998 5:54 PM >Subject: a suggestion > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:00:33 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Another Person Unsubscribes Those subscribed here come with a very wide variety of background and experience and interests. It would be very difficult to satisfy everyone. Take for example, one could be a T/theosophist and who has never heard about SD nor has any interest in metaphysical or occult teachings. Having read the three Objects and fired by the enthusiasm and concern for all living beings, a non scholarly inclined person could have become a T/theosophist. On the other hand, we could have an Initiate or even a Chohan monitoring what is going on here (this is a quite possible scenario by analogy of the cases mentioned in ML to APS). The former may find that the fog factor of the esoteric discussion beyond their comprehension and hence consider all the discussion is smoke and mirrors and waste of time and latter may be wondering about the ignorance and misunderstanding of the esoteric doctrines and waiting for the day when our intution helps us to understand better. Then there are those who are adepts in using the delete key. It looks like we may have to leave the maillist as it is. My 0.02. mkr =================================================== At 09:51 AM 2/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Someone recently subscribed to THEOSOPHY WORLD/theos-talk, then a >couple of days later unsubscribed. I wrote him and asked if he'd >write a paragraph about what he found wrong/missing with the >current discussion on the list, to write something if he had >something helpful for people to read, and I'd post it anonymously. > >He said: > >> I find the email is cluttered with absurdities from people I find >> to be idiots. Perhaps if you filtered out these nonsense letters >> it would be more worthy to look at. >> >> These letters for the most part reflect mass ignorance about >> theosophy and I find them annoying. Obviously from visitors to >> your web site who have never read THE SECRET DOCTRINE or have >> little experience with metaphysical or occult teachings. I can't >> afford the time to delete unwanted email. I have better things >> to do. Time is precious -- we don't live that long! > >It's something to keep in mind as we post to the list. We can be >judged based upon a few days of postings. How much of what we >write would be considered "noise" and subject to a quick , >as compared to something worth setting aside, printing, and >carefully read? How much of our writings are helpful to someone >interested in and wanting to study Theosophy? > >There's no easy answer, and I'm not sure we could make a general >rule, but perhaps 3/4 of the people that drop theos-talk still >want the monthly, indicating that there's something about the >mailing list that doesn't meet their needs. Maybe there's >nothing we can do, perhaps it's just that the nature of mailing >lists doesn't lend itself to their needs? What do others think? > >-- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:38:12 -0800 From: "Estela Luna" Subject: more on the subject Hi to all Doss. this is the link i was telling you. is in spanish, but i think someone can translate this to you (and to all) http://moon.inf.uji.es/~roc/ spanish site on the dangers on the sects. it has something on NA. check it out. in Eudora i do not know which is the putting link system, unfortunately. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:27:23 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Control and Moving Into the Future Jerry: You make a good point that in a print magazine the reader has no way to tell if some materials where omitted or altered. The reader only sees what the editor wants seen. This allows for the possibility of deception and manipulation. On the Internet, though, everyone is self-published, so nothing is altered, filtered, or distorted. Someone's original words go out when and how that person chooses. And for mailing lists, there is an archive to refer to, as well as fellow subscribers, should someone later question what was said. As you say, this allows for a level playing field in terms of content. Everyone has an equal say as to what appears. Everyone can write as much as they like, and can continue to clarify their positions until they're satisfied that there is understanding, or until they've come up against a brick wall one time too many and tire of the effort at self-expression. While there are definite openings for abuse when there is filtering and control of information, there are also positive advantages for it, in certain situations, and people will gladly choose the control at times. Control can be used for political purposes, for a group of people to maintain power when faced with attacks or rival factions within their organizations. But control can also be used to maintain a consistent content and quality to materials, passing on the good materials, and weeding out the materials of poor quality, materials that are off-topic, or materials that are deemed offensive to the readership. The reason we pick a particular radio station over another is based upon their selection of music. We'd be disappointed if a New Age station started playing country and western music, operas, or rap. The reason we subscribe to a particular magazine, say DISCOVER MAGAZINE, is because we expect a consistent quality of materials on a particular topic, in this case materials on leading-edge popular science. With mailing lists, the quality of materials and topics are somewhat spontaneous, but are heavily influenced by those that post the longest and post the most frequently. A list takes on a particular personality, and attracts certain people, and drives away others. Many people want something of more consistently good quality than mailing lists, but find that moderated lists are too rigid, stifled, lacking in creative expression. There's not yet a good medium for them. Mailing lists are a good place to try out various ideas that we've been playing with, to put them in words and see how people react. We can learn from the interchange, grow in our thinking, and be better able to share our thinking in more permanent form like print magazines and books. Mailing lists are also a good place to air our organizational concerns, to examine issues that are too hotly political for anyone in power in a theosophical group to want to deal with. Apart from the old topic of "who did what bad thing to whom when?" that we can continually dwell on, which is good for assessing personal blame but useless in building bridges and moving constructively into the future -- we can discuss projects and plans for theosophical work that would take us into the future. Perhaps you could give us an update on Theosophical Resources and mention how it'll help us bridge our differences and move in the future into greater cooperation on theosophical projects to better the world? -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:54:48 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: more on the subject Hi Can you provide a short summary in English? Specifically any mention of racism and any criminal or other problems in any countries. mkr ============================================ At 02:46 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hi to all >Doss. this is the link i was telling you. is in spanish, but i think >someone can translate this to you (and to all) > >http://moon.inf.uji.es/~roc/ > >spanish site on the dangers on the sects. it has something on NA. >check it out. in Eudora i do not know which is the putting link system, >unfortunately. >Estrella > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:48:48 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: "borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" << Unquestionably that Ego (the triple Monad: Atma-Buddhi-Manas) is the immortal and the common base for such a remarkable event as using a "borrowed body." >> <> I have trouble with the "borrowed body" concept. It smacks of that New Agey flap some years ago about "walk-ins", the idea that a higher being can come in and take over the body already inhabited by some soul. A "walk-in" is presumably invited to complete a life in progress by an Aego who wants out or, is perhaps fed up with life itself. This idea was made popular in the late Seventies by Ruth Montgomery, a well-known writer on New Age themes. For some time now, the walk-in notion has been expropriated by UFO groups where claims have been made about extraterrestrial "take-overs" of bodies of selected human beings. This usually tickles the ego of the person imagining that he/she is now some lofty being from God knows where. A well-known example of the "borrowed body" idea is that of a British plumber from Plympton who claimed to have been taken over by an entity called T. Lobsang Rampa. This famous literary scandal produced a series of popular, and some say well-researched books, which made the author quite wealthy.. It's my understanding of the ageless wisdom, however, that the physical body is the result of the past karma of the occupant. This would include the body's condition, health, longevity, etc. I don't see how that Karma could be worked out or even abrogated by another entity. The law of karmic responsibilities and evolutionary advancement through self-devised efforts is very specific in the classical writings of theosophy. My two cents. Lmhemm111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:29:33 -0700 From: "Dick Slusser" Subject: Re:Billeting for ISSSEEM conference in Boulder, CO At 05:59 PM 2/23/98 +1200, you wrote: >Hi, I am planning to attend the ISSSEEM conference in Boulder, Colerado, in June 18-24 this >year, so am investigating accomodation options. I would be grateful to learn the address and >contact details of the TSA Lodge in Boulder if there is one, or any other way to obtain >economical accomodation there for my wife and myself, for the duration of the conference. >I hope someone can help us out. Hi Peter: 1. There is no T.S. Lodge in , Boulder. I am dick Slusser, editor of The High Country Theosophist, also founder of the Kiva (residential) co-operative here in Boulder. We do have limited guest facilities consisting of a guest alcove on the 2nd floor scrrened for privacy with a sofa converting to a double bed. We are cross cultural/multi-genereational spiritually based, i.e. a mother and 14 year old daughter from Guatemala & theosophist founder aged 72 plus 4 other male & female members. I can put you in touch with the (Adyar)) T.S. Study Center, about 40 miles (64 Km) from Boulder. 2. What is ISSSEEM? Fraternally, -- Dick Slusser dslusser@indra.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:58:43 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge --------------FAB847DFB9E96D817D695F5E Dear David, I'm sorry that you feel that I have insulted you, or have been condescending. This has not been my intention. However, I must admit that my failure to communicate with you has been frustrating to me and hurtful to others. Instead of asking me what is the problem, and accusing me of insulting you, perhaps you ought to take an honest look your behaviors that I have specifically expressed concern and attempted to get you to change: 1. You have been soliciting the addresses of private individuals who may not want to be contacted. Case in point: I specifically told you that Mr. Goes is a private individual and does not want his address given out, let alone have it broadcasted over the internet. I told you that if you want to contact him, I would forward a message for you. That way it would be up to Mr. Gomes to decide if he wants to answer your letter. You ignored my suggestion and found someone who was willing to break Mr. Gomes trust and send you his address. Worse yet, in trying to help you, this person published the address on theos-talk for everyone to see. Several people were hurt as a result of your careless behavior, including Mr. Gomes. Apparently you learned nothing from that incident because you more recently publicly solicited Ms. Eklund's email address. Did it ever occur to you that she may also be a private individual? 2. You have on several occasions solicited students on this discussion group to send you Judge documents under the pretext that you are thinking of doing a thesis on the subject. I applaud your four or five months study of Judge's writings, and encourage you to keep going. But evidently it hasn't occurred to you that the serious students you have been soliciting have sacrificed many years in the collecting and studying these documents. Through many decades (not months) of hard researching and pondering, these students have achieved their own understanding of these materials. But you post documents to a public site, materials generously given to you that you have not taken the time to understand yourself. What is your point of doing this? IMO, this is a very distasteful and an inappropriate use of those documents. Further, it is not by any stretch of the imagination the behavior of someone who is doing serious research. 3. Your above actions leave me to guess that your behavior is essentially motivated by the expectation that others are to do your research for you. Do you tell your Professors to give you all the documents they have on a subject when they ask you to research it? Of course not. They will tell you to do your own research and find your own documents, because it is in the research and writing processes that you really begin to learn about the subject. Case in point: someone generously sent you a document from the O.E. Library Critic. Your post lacked any surrounding information concerning the document. In fact, you knew so little about the document and the publication that you had to ask the meaning of the initials "O.E." What is your point of publishing documents you know nothing about, unless it is with the expectation that others will explain them to you. i.e. to do your research for you. 4. Regarding my "new accusation" that you are trying to manipulate me into a debate with someone unknown to me: since you evidently don't understand what I'm saying, I will spell it out again. Friday, you posted on theos-talk a portion of a private letter written to you suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about. What am I to make of your making public a private letter sent to you that criticizes me? My only two guesses are that you either posted it to passive aggressively lash out at me for for calling you on your shit, or because you want to manipulate me into a debate with this person. I told you that I will not be suckered into your games. They are not constructive. They are not friendly, and I assure you that in the long run, you will not benefit from them. Regarding my library and archives--yes we have some 15,000 volumes of rare theosophical books and journals here and another 50,000 pages of unpublished documents, most of which are not available anywhere else. I have announced the existence of this resource on the various Theosophical discussion groups and advertised its existence in Theosophical History. I have also made it known that the materials and books are available to any student who wishes to see them. As a matter of fact, we receive several researchers a year from all over the world who make use of this material. Some of them are working on their Ph.D. Thesis. One frequent visitor is a university professor who is engaged in writing a book. I am yet to deny access to this material to anyone who has inquired. The rules for using this material are exactly the same as the rules that you would follow if you were to visit any University special collection. This collection exists because I personally collected, housed and preserved this material, at a tremendous personal cost in time (thirty-five years) and money (many tens of thousands of dollars). Over the years, I have made this material freely available to ALL students whether they share my beliefs or not. Further, my wife and I have been in the process of taking legal steps to make this collection a public trust so that it will continue to be preserved and be available to students after our deaths. This is being done at the cost of our entire personal estate. Considering the above, I suggest that your accusation that I have not been generous to you or to others might be a bit misguided.. I hope this clarifies and brings an end to this conversation. JHE David Green wrote: > JHE, > What is problem? Since last > fall I've been reading & studying W > Judge. I've purchased books, recd > material thru inter-library sharing, > & yes, I've asked for help > in locating material > on this forum. Persons senting > public & private messages to me > have been helpful. Some extremely > generous. But you are exception. > You dislike my questions > & accuse me of wanting > you to do my research. Now you > give new accusation. If you > dont want to share info then > DONT SHARE. But why do you write > what appears to me as insulting & > condescending comments. > Several theosophists have copied > rare books on W Judge for me. > No charge. They > didn't lecture me but helped. > One man emailed me you have library & > archives of Judge material. I > wonder how open & accessible your > material is when you can write such > unfriendly postings? > > I close unpleasant subject.I thank > everyone who's given info & > material & I'll continue to > post documents as I find & rec. them. > I also plan to create web site > when I learn HTML. Any recommendations > on good web site provider? > > D Green From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:59:29 EST From: "Pat Reda" Subject: Re:the saving of a life for reincarnation dear dallas: thank you for the clarification. magi42 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:19:36 PST From: "David Green" Subject: WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge JHE------- No time now to respond to posting. But will answer part of 1. Ms Eklund maybe private person but she's posted on this public forum. She answered months ago to queries on Judge Case. I couldn't find her email so I asked for it on same forum. Her email add. was no secret to subscribers. I didn't have it so I asked. Is that improper? Since posting Neresheimer----Judge letters, some readers have emailed thanking me for posting what they knew nothing about. What's negative with that? In regards to context, what earthshattering context info would change major points of letters? I'll go over this soon. D Green >Dear David, > >I'm sorry that you feel that I have insulted you, or have been >condescending. This has not been my intention. However, I must admit that >my failure to communicate with you has been frustrating to me and hurtful to >others. Instead of asking me what is the problem, and accusing me of >insulting you, perhaps you ought to take an honest look your behaviors that >I have specifically expressed concern and attempted to get you to change: > >1. You have been soliciting the addresses of private individuals who may not >want to be contacted. Case in point: I specifically told you that Mr. Goes >is a private individual and does not want his address given out, let alone >have it broadcasted over the internet. I told you that if you want to >contact him, I would forward a message for you. That way it would be up to >Mr. Gomes to decide if he wants to answer your letter. You ignored my >suggestion and found someone who was willing to break Mr. Gomes trust and >send you his address. Worse yet, in trying to help you, this person >published the address on theos-talk for everyone to see. Several people >were hurt as a result of your careless behavior, including Mr. Gomes. >Apparently you learned nothing from that incident because you more recently >publicly solicited Ms. Eklund's email address. Did it ever occur to you >that she may also be a private individual? > >2. You have on several occasions solicited students on this discussion group >to send you Judge documents under the pretext that you are thinking of doing >a thesis on the subject. I applaud your four or five months study of >Judge's writings, and encourage you to keep going. But evidently it hasn't >occurred to you that the serious students you have been soliciting have >sacrificed many years in the collecting and studying these documents. >Through many decades (not months) of hard researching and pondering, these >students have achieved their own understanding of these materials. But you >post documents to a public site, materials generously given to you that you >have not taken the time to understand yourself. What is your point of doing >this? IMO, this is a very distasteful and an inappropriate use of those >documents. Further, it is not by any stretch of the imagination the >behavior of someone who is doing serious research. > >3. Your above actions leave me to guess that your behavior is essentially >motivated by the expectation that others are to do your research for you. >Do you tell your Professors to give you all the documents they have on a >subject when they ask you to research it? Of course not. They will tell >you to do your own research and find your own documents, because it is in >the research and writing processes that you really begin to learn about the >subject. Case in point: someone generously sent you a document from the >O.E. Library Critic. Your post lacked any surrounding information >concerning the document. In fact, you knew so little about the document and >the publication that you had to ask the meaning of the initials "O.E." >What is your point of publishing documents you know nothing about, unless it >is with the expectation that others will explain them to you. i.e. to do >your research for you. > >4. Regarding my "new accusation" that you are trying to manipulate me into a >debate with someone unknown to me: since you evidently don't understand what >I'm saying, I will spell it out again. Friday, you posted on theos-talk a >portion of a private letter written to you suggesting that I don't know what >I'm talking about. What am I to make of your making public a private >letter sent to you that criticizes me? My only two guesses are that you >either posted it to passive aggressively lash out at me for for calling you >on your shit, or because you want to manipulate me into a debate with this >person. I told you that I will not be suckered into your games. They are >not constructive. They are not friendly, and I assure you that in the long >run, you will not benefit from them. > >Regarding my library and archives--yes we have some 15,000 volumes of rare >theosophical books and journals here and another 50,000 pages of unpublished >documents, most of which are not available anywhere else. I have announced >the existence of this resource on the various Theosophical discussion groups >and advertised its existence in Theosophical History. I have also made it >known that the materials and books are available to any student who wishes >to see them. As a matter of fact, we receive several researchers a year >from all over the world who make use of this material. Some of them are >working on their Ph.D. Thesis. One frequent visitor is a university >professor who is engaged in writing a book. I am yet to deny access to this >material to anyone who has inquired. The rules for using this material are >exactly the same as the rules that you would follow if you were to visit any >University special collection. This collection exists because I personally >collected, housed and preserved this material, at a tremendous personal >cost in time (thirty-five years) and money (many tens of thousands of >dollars). Over the years, I have made this material freely available to ALL >students whether they share my beliefs or not. Further, my wife and I have >been in the process of taking legal steps to make this collection a public >trust so that it will continue to be preserved and be available to students >after our deaths. This is being done at the cost of our entire personal >estate. Considering the above, I suggest that your accusation that I have >not been generous to you or to others might be a bit misguided.. > >I hope this clarifies and brings an end to this conversation. > >JHE > >David Green wrote: > >> JHE, >> What is problem? Since last >> fall I've been reading & studying W >> Judge. I've purchased books, recd >> material thru inter-library sharing, >> & yes, I've asked for help >> in locating material >> on this forum. Persons senting >> public & private messages to me >> have been helpful. Some extremely >> generous. But you are exception. >> You dislike my questions >> & accuse me of wanting >> you to do my research. Now you >> give new accusation. If you >> dont want to share info then >> DONT SHARE. But why do you write >> what appears to me as insulting & >> condescending comments. >> Several theosophists have copied >> rare books on W Judge for me. >> No charge. They >> didn't lecture me but helped. >> One man emailed me you have library & >> archives of Judge material. I >> wonder how open & accessible your >> material is when you can write such >> unfriendly postings? >> >> I close unpleasant subject.I thank >> everyone who's given info & >> material & I'll continue to >> post documents as I find & rec. them. >> I also plan to create web site >> when I learn HTML. Any recommendations >> on good web site provider? >> >> D Green >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:53:34 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: thoughts about Theosophy, the TS and the ULT Feb 23 1998 Dear N. Malcom No ULT Lodges are close to you geographically. Closest through Internet will be http://www.blavatsky.org http://www.theosophycompany.org http://www.whidbey.net/theolit Addresses: United Lodge of Theosophists. 243 W. 33rd St., Los Angles, Ca., 90007 Phone: 213-748-7244 347 E 72nd St., New York, N.Y., 10021 Phone: 212-535-2230 I can send you by "snail mail" the monthly program of activities in which are listed all the ULTs, but I will need an address. If you wish to get me directly send me a MSG at dalval@nwc.net A list of the publications (photographic or verbatim reprints) of the original texts is also available and will be sent with the program. I see no closer ULTs to you than London and Ottawa in Canada, their addresses will be on the Program. Best wishes, Dallas >From: "Nancy L Malcom" >Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 2:20 PM >Subject: Re:thoughts about Theosophy, the TS and the ULT >Is there anyway to find ULT meeting groups in a set area? I live in >Missouri, USA and unless they advertise in the phone book or newspaper, how >do you locate one? The closest "big" cities to me are Joplin and KC and in >Kansas- Pittsburgh or Fort Scott. Any suggestions? > >---- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:08:17 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re:"borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" >It's my understanding of the ageless wisdom, however, that the physical body >is the result of the past karma of the occupant. This would include the body's >condition, health, longevity, etc. I don't see how that Karma could be worked >out or even abrogated by another entity. The law of karmic responsibilities >and evolutionary advancement through self-devised efforts is very specific in >the classical writings of theosophy. > >My two cents. >Lmhemm111 > If you really think as you say above, then how can you explain the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Pho-Wa in which an adept can take over the body (usually a corpse) of another person? The pho-wa techniques have been around since Evans-Wentz, (a Theosophist and early writer on Tibetan Yoga) and virtually all Tibetan writers have acknowledged its effectiveness, albeit they concede it to be rarely done. I see no reason why pho-wa can't be explained theosophically. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:29:50 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:WQ Judge - Your MSG of Feb 19 7.15 P Feb 23 1998 Dear Jerry: I have not neglected your response of Feb 19th to mine, but have taken some time to think over it. Please excuse the delay. The subject was WQJ, and "practice" of theosophical methods. I am of the opinion that you do not find this set out ritualistically, so to say, because each individual has to make his own "path." Yes, that seems frustrating. But the "path" to self-improvement is always one of learning and then applying. Apparently the "occult" method is to leave the student to make decisions on his own, once that he knows what the optimum is from the ethical point of view. As I see it, once that one becomes self-convinced of the value of attaining the subtle "spiritual" knowledge, the "laws of Nature" demand that we prove our devotion, and dedication to that method. Everything that is personal or selfish has to be eliminated -- and, that hurts the "personal," though not really any more than the discipline to sit down and study on a regular basis and then apply -- the body and desires are then ruled by us until we achieve a mastery over whatever we select to learn. Same thing in "occultism." The built-in tests in "occult" studies and the acquiring of such information, I think, are rather well described in several passages in MAHATMA LETTERS. Sinnett and Hume did not like the idea (any more than most of us do) of being "tried and tested." Especially on questions of individual ethics and moral application in ones' daily life. But it is not the "Masters" who do this, it is Nature. We cannot escape the situation of being embodied and a vital part of all the "Nature" that surrounds us. We owe our physical life to its working in us and guiding our many physical and sometimes part of our psychic functions. As I look at it, I find I am a kind of "tenant" in my body and many things that I take for granted are done me without supervision (unless I fall ill or get into an accident, or a situation which my daring and foolhardiness places me precariously). You may not agree with this idea but I find that I am left free to feel, to think and to plan and so many functions are carried on in the meantime without direct supervision during most of the day. My body transports me around -- I feed it and rest it and exercise it, but, I am something different from the body, although we are so closely linked that its feelings and my needs and wants react closely on each other -- so close that we are almost "one." Yet, the mind is something else, another faculty, and decisions on how to use knowledge make for still further subtle situations, or so I think. and those might be called ethical, if they involve the "shall I ? shan't I ? kind of decisions. And so I ramble on. HPB did write some rather clear and explicit articles on these subjects. let me offer a short list which has made me think a lot: LODGES OF MAGIC -- Lucifer October 1888 MAHATMAS AND CHELAS -- Theosophist, July 1884 ARE CHELAS "MEDIUMS ?" -- Theosophist June 1884 CHELAS -- Theosophist, October 1884 "THE THEOSOPHICAL MAHATMAS" -- Path, December 1886 CHELAS AND LAY CHELAS -- Supplement to Theosophist, July 1883 PRACTICAL OCCULTISM -- Lucifer April, May 1888, June 1889 OCCULTISM VS. THE OCCULT ARTS Lucifer May 1888 SPIRITUAL PROGRESS -- Theosophist, May 1885 IS THE DESIRE TO LIVE SELFISH ? -- Theosophist July 1884 I found that a "quick read" is not enough, some of those had to be read again and thought over, also there are sections that correlate to each other or supplement the information given in KEY and SD, etc... Have fun again, if you have not already had it ! These articles are reprinted in BLAVATSKY, COLLECTED WORKS and in the 3 Vol. edition of HPB ARTICLES published by the ULT. You are probably familiar with all of them, and I mention them because I found some valuable hints there. Psychism ought to be recognized as a necessary link in each 7-fold human -- looking from "above" it unites the Monadic triad ( Atma-Buddhi-Manas ) to the quaternary : (Lower Manas, Kama, Prana and Astral Body} -- the physical body being merely a vehicle in which these act. The "link" is, I think, what HPB calls the "antaskarana," ( SD I 68fn, T. Gloss 23, Voice 55, 61, it has also been called the "Karana Sarira" and the "Causal body" in some articles) that which connects the "lower Manas (or the reflection in dense matter) of the Higher Manas, the True EGO, which is the Intelligently conscious part of the Monadic triad (as above). As to views on contacting the psychic plane, HPB and WQJ both caution about it because we do not yet have enough knowledge to exercise control over the entities that live there, especially those which are inimical. It is done, apparently through the will. But one has to perceive clearly on that plane to be able to employ our will with accuracy. Certain ancient grimoires and medieval texts exist which give details of "ceremonial magic" as practices to protect the practitioner or the inquirer -- but, without sure knowledge the danger persists and therefore the warnings. The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY does give a survey of that area of Nature and also explains the warnings. It is not done to deter investigation but to warn and perhaps protect the unwary. All that I have read of G de P is derived from his study and interpretation of what can be found in SD. Everything is "exoteric" if we desire to keep it that way. But it has been my experience that the "esoteric" can be discovered as correlations are made and by reading "within the lines." The conveying of ideas by words is, to my mind, always faulty, as we do not give exactly the same meanings to words. So our interpretation either agrees with the knowledge we have already acquired and with certain universal bases we are sure of, or it is taken as tentative, do be proved later on as opportunity arises. As you say the finger that points at the Moon is only suggestive. As to "mastering the personality" -- I would say, taking the concept that this evolutionary system we are immersed in is of the nature of a progressive educational experience, with the various successive incarnations as "days" spent in learning progressively more, there is not only time but ample opportunity to refine our progress in any direction we choose. Hence I would hesitate to say that the "personality in never fully mastered," that is, perhaps in "one life." But if we take a sequence of "lives" into account with the immortal Monad keeping a record of all our real progress, then that mastery can and ought to be achieved in due course. As I see it everything starts with our motive and even that can be changed as we go on. If we expect to grow in knowledge as we work and assist others, we may, says Theosophy make quick and real progress. But if we think we can seize "occult" secrets for personal use, we may well find ourselves frustrated time after time. We reach dead ends which our imaginings have created for us. Our task then, would be to progress after reviewing what advance we have made so far, and determining where the next step will take us. But we all do this, and you know it quite well. As you say, we do coincide in more ways than one, and so it goes. Dal > From: "Jerry Schueler" > Date: February 19 1998 7:15 p.m. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:10:13 EST From: "Visanu Sirish" Subject: Re:"borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" In a message dated 98-02-23 20:35:20 EST, you write: << how can you explain the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Pho-Wa in which an adept can take over the body (usually a corpse) of another person >> I've heard of this practice and I can accept the concept of an Adept or high Yogi taking over a corpse. Here the Aego of the deceased has left the field of karma for the subjective planes, leaving behind the shell. However, to take over the body of someone still actively involved in the karmic process of action and reaction on the physical plane seems to contradict the purpose of incarnating in the first place. It was revealed after publication of "The Third Eye" that Lobsang Rampa was in fact an English plumber named Cyril Henry Hoskins. The explanation given in "The Rampa Story" is that in 1947 he "transmigrated" into the body of Hoskins after his own body had been rendered uninhabitable by illness and mistreatment. Here we have the body of healthy Englisman being taken over by a lama whose body had become useless. It's interesting to note that Lobsang Rampa spoke fluent English with a Devonshire accent but couldn't remember a word of Tibetan. Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:13:39 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:"borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" There was the legend of Shri Shankaracharya (who was considered to the incarnation of one of the highest Adepts) taking abode in the corpse of the King so that he could acquire experience of physical relationship with a woman. So this phenomenon is more frequent than we may be aware of. mkr ====================== At 08:08 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >>It's my understanding of the ageless wisdom, however, that the physical >body >>is the result of the past karma of the occupant. This would include the >body's >>condition, health, longevity, etc. I don't see how that Karma could be >worked >>out or even abrogated by another entity. The law of karmic responsibilities >>and evolutionary advancement through self-devised efforts is very specific >in >>the classical writings of theosophy. >> >>My two cents. >>Lmhemm111 >> > >If you really think as you say above, then how can you explain >the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Pho-Wa in which an adept >can take over the body (usually a corpse) of another person? >The pho-wa techniques have been around since Evans-Wentz, >(a Theosophist and early writer on Tibetan Yoga) and virtually >all Tibetan writers have acknowledged its effectiveness, >albeit they concede it to be rarely done. I see no reason why >pho-wa can't be explained theosophically. > >Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:20:23 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 7 of 7 WAD-BB1 (wad-f7) Continued from Part 6 of 7 The living Power of Theosophy must become the power by which we live. W. E. Whiteman Extracts from a Talk Given at the I.I.W.C. in 1981 by Jehanghir M. Tijoriwalla, Bar-at-Law, of Bombay at Bangalore. Oct. 16th., 1981 This day marks the birth-centenary of Bahman Pestonji Wadia. He worked in the cause of labor and the Home Rule Movement of India, leaving plain Theosophical traces on all causes he espoused. This he did through the Theosophical Society, then for thirty years thereafter he lived and labored for the Cause of Those whom Theosophists call The MASTERS, and in whom they recognize the successors of the ancient and far-distant Rishis. B.P.'s student days took him up to the "matriculation examination." Thereafter, for a short time the young B.P. worked for an English firm, but resigned when he found that service in its business house meant at times a deliberate departure from the Truth, on occasions when business interest demanded it. Sometime, during the ninety of the last century, he received a present of the two volumes of THE SECRET DOCTRINE written by Mme. H.P.Blavatsky. The fates act sometimes thus. This birthday present gave his life a fresh and more profound orientation. As he read and studied his soul awakened to deeper purposes for living. He deliberately chose H.P.B. as his guru. His daily contact with THE SECRET DOCTRINE remained unbroken throughout his life. Did She not speak to him, guide and admonish him through the pages of her book? Her body had died in 1891, but to him, She lived, She was a Living Force. Looking around for a suitable organization through which he might channel his efforts he could find none better than the Theosophical Society. To its venerable President Founder: Col. H. S. Olcott he made application, was accepted and worked thereafter in the Bombay Branch of the T.S. Shortly after Col. Olcott's death he went to work at Adyar. The plight of the laborers in the Buckingham and Karnatic Mills textile mills came to his attention when a delegation of these called upon Mrs. Annie Besant, asking for assistance. She asked him to attend to that for her, as her delegate. Having espoused with success the cause of the laborer, B.P. observed India now found itself involved in the fortunes of Britain engaged in World War I. India had been promised a gradual increment in political responsibility by the English rulers. When this was shelved, Mrs. Besant indignantly launched the Theosophical Society behind the Home Rule Movement in an effort to secure the implementation of those promises. Addendum on Mr. W. Q. Judge 1894-96 As an aside to this narration of the work and life of BPW it becomes necessary to write of the events in 1894-1896 involving Mr. Judge, Mrs. Besant and Col. Olcott after the death of HPB, so that the perspective is clear and some understanding of what Mr. Wadia found out is had as of 1919-1922. BPW determined that in 1894-6 Mrs. Besant, and Col. Olcott, were the prime cause of a serious problem caused by their misunderstanding of Mr. Judge's stand and function for Theosophy. He was accused by them ( Mrs. Besant taking the position of a "prosecutor)" of fraudulently imitating or copying the Masters' handwriting when providing them with certain "messages" which came from Them. Mrs. Besant and other recipients admitted that the content of the messages was not being questioned, only the fact that they seemed to be written in scripts that were used before H.P.B. died. She, of course, was no longer there to use them. This was a puzzle. How did Judge figure in this ? The original founders of the T S, in 1875, being more interested in spiritualism, rather than in philosophical and religious investigation, soon dropped away from membership in the T.S. Only HPB, WQJ AND Olcott remained steadfast until their death to the work of the Masters and to Their Cause. In terms of time it should be remembered that Mrs. Besant had contacted HPB and Theosophy late in 1888, or 13 years after the T.S. was established. This occurred because after she had been asked to review The Secret Doctrine she was so struck by the wisdom to be found therein, that she determined to meet Mme. Blavatsky. Shortly thereafter she joined the T.S. in London (May 1889). As she was an accomplished thinker and writer, and as her sincerity in adopting the Theosophical outlook and life was evident, Mme. Blavatsky asked her to assist in editing her magazine Lucifer as co-editor. Mrs. Besant had only had about two and a half years experience in the T.S. in this incarnation, before HPB, her teacher, "died." Whereas Mr. Judge, and Col. Olcott had been in it, and with HPB since the outset, or 19 years earlier, when in 1894, accusations against Mr. Judge were made public by Mrs. Besant and Col. Olcott. Mr. Judge stated openly at that time, that he was in frequent touch with the Masters and that the said messages were Theirs and not his; nor had he written them. He offered to prove this, but none of the accusers took him up on this offer to demonstrate, as history reveals. [ Both HPB, WQJ and others had, earlier, published a number of articles in Lucifer and The Path concerning the rationale of letter "precipitation"--how a "matrix" impressed and long established in the electro-magnetic substance of the astral light could be repeatedly used to save psy6M3 hic energy--in sending new communications. Such a matrix did not extinguish with the "death" of any one person, but could continue to be used, as in these cases, where another person might be used as the focus for that work to be done, as, apparently, Judge was so used. It was the context and the content, as well as an interior code impressed in the "message" by the sender which certified to its authenticity. No "seal" or other external physical appearance could be used by unconcerned parties to make a determination of its authenticity. These criteria alone would not serve an inquirer in verifying the genuineness of the letters, or other artifacts, precipitated from the astral light. It may be recalled that earlier, suspicions had been entertained in HPB' life time of the genuineness of certain letters from the Mahatmas, like the "Prayag letter." She, and Damodar K. Mavlankar had been the targets of such suspicions by Sinnett and Olcott.] Judge had warned Col. Olcott in advance that in his esteem, an attempt in the T S to make a ruling on such a question would establish a "belief in Masters" as a dogma of the T. S.--which specifically disavowed any dogmatism. On this point the "Judicial Committee" convened by Col. Olcott in London in July 1894 agreed; the "charges" against Judge were dropped, and amity was ostensibly restored. The membership of the T S were sent a report by Col. Olcott entitled "On the Neutrality of the T S." For some unfortunate reason this setback rankled with those who had made themselves accusers of Mr. Judge. These accusations were renewed in the beginning of the next year, 1895 with increased rancor. Col. Olcott. on Sept. 7th 1895 excommunicated, in effect, the whole American Section of the T.S., which had, by his, Col. Olcott's earlier suggestion, [see his letter written in 1893 addressed to W. Q. Judge--quoted in Canadian Theosophist, 1923, Vol. 4, p. 1, and March 15th p. 11.] reconstituted itself at its Annual Convention held in April 1894, "The Theosophical Society in America," in full fraternal association with all Theosophical Societies anywhere. This excommunication goes against the first object of the Society: brotherhood. End of Part 7 of 7 = = = From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:03:31 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 2 of 7 WAD-A2(wad-f2) Continued from Part 1 of 7 1919 - Meets Members of the United Lodge of Theosophists He paid a visit to hear what the ULT offered, and listened to the talk given. Earlier, his fame had attracted members of the ULT to attend his talks under T S auspices. They appreciated his point of view in regard to HPB, and as a result he held a number of talks with the supporters of the ULT. He then learned of its aims and objectives. He saw they had been reprinting in Theosophy magazine Mme. Blavatsky's articles, and, those of Mr. W.Q.Judge--with whose works he was not familiar. He accepted an appointment to speak from the platform of the ULT on the subject of Mme. Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine. He then read with great attention Mr. Judge's books: The Ocean of Theosophy, The Epitome of Theosophy, Echoes from the Orient. This made him realize what a gap had been created in the minds and knowledge of those in the T S by having no access to Mr. Judge's writings for nearly 25 years; and, in being given a false picture of him as a renegade, who had been expelled for his misdeeds from the T S, along with the majority of the members of the T S in the American Section by Col. Olcott, the President Founder in 1895. He attended more meetings of the ULT, then held at the Metropolitan Building, in downtown Los Angeles. He held long talks with Mr.John Garrigues, Mr. Westcott and Mrs. Grace Clough, and many of the ULT associates who had known and worked with Mr. Robert Crosbie, founder and energizer of the "pure Theosophy" program of the impersonal U.L.T. Mr. Wadia said he was thrilled to read the Declaration of The United Lodge of Theosophists, and to realize that a group of students already existed, who had banded together, without any political or official structure, on the basis of a practical application of HPB's Theosophy. He found that the principles of brotherly work and unity had survived, and those were being applied practically and impersonally. All ideas of "successorship," of "leadership," of "politics" and "personal" authority had been excluded from this association. It now remained to see, he said, whether an agreement with the present T.S. "leaders," Mrs. Besant in particular, could be arranged to implement a similar program that would bring about an internal adjustment, and would return the T S to the Original Lines, and Objects, and to the Original Program of the Masters. It was November 1919 in Los Angeles. Mr. Crosbie had died only five months earlier: June 25th 1919. His loss, BPW observed, seemed to have left some feeling of despondency among the workers at the ULT. Mr. Wadia dissuaded them from this. He affirmed his belief in the need for the ULT, and the practical application of those principles its Declaration stood for. Mr. Crosbie, speaking just before his death to his friends who felt this despondency said: "they would not have too long to wait" for some help to arrive. >From that discussed and understood between them and BPW, it seemed that this "help" was at hand. Certainly there was a great meeting of minds. They began to plan what ought to be done, in all fairness to Mrs. Besant, to the T S in Adyar and elsewhere, and to the defining of Mr. Wadia's future position and the discharge of his continued responsibilities to all of those before he would be free to join the ULT. He promised those at ULT that if he was not successful in instituting a change and a reform in Adyar, he would return in a short while. His duty required that he continue his tour, complete his work in the T S, and for the Labor Union Congress, then return to India. He would in addition work on what he had found and learned; study Judge and Crosbie; and, when in Adyar, he would fight for the restoration of true Theosophy. He would try to secure from Annie Besant a public reversal of the unfair attitude maintained against Mr. Judge and his work in America, for nearly 25 years. He did try this, as will be seen from Professor A. H. Nethercot's biography of Annie Besant, [ Vol. II, p. 328, The Eight Lives of Annie Besant, Publisher: University of Chicago Press ]; but was unsuccessful in securing from Mrs. Besant a public reversal from her. To him, privately, she admitted that Judge had been wronged, just as earlier, Col. Olcott had admitted that to Laura Holloway, whom he had met in New York shortly before his death, but he did not make this public.] In going through some of the older magazines published in Bombay and Adyar, during the period when he was with Col. Olcott and Mrs. Besant (1906-1921) one will come across a number of statements of support made by BPW for the policies of those in charge of the T.S.: Mrs. Besant, Mr. Leadbeater, Mr. Krishnamurthi, etc... These appear to be at variance with his later words and actions after his resignation from the T.S. As he explained this, they were sincere statements made by him within the framework of his knowledge at that time. BPW knew Mr. Judge, one of the original founders, was no longer well known among most of the membership of the T.S., or in India since 1895. He, along with HPB and Col. Olcott had remained faithful to the Masters' Cause. BPW saw that his writing formed a bridge between HPB, who provided the metaphysical base and Judge offered the practical applications. He was distressed that such an important and valuable asset to the T.S. had been lost and a memory of its existence had been buried and obliterated so far as the membership was then concerned. BPW saw in the nature of the work that Mr. Judge did for Theosophy in America, a fiery devotion which had in a few years, brought an enormous increase of public interest in, and respect for, Theosophical principles and doctrines during the ten year period between 1886 and 1896, the last being the year in which Judge died. [ The membership grew from about 350 to over 4,000, and the number of Branches from about 20 to over 400.] It was similar to the flowering of the Theosophical Society in India during the five year period 1879-1884, when, fired by the devotion and energy of Col. Olcott, and HPB. Theosophy had burgeoned and spread over the East to Ceylon, Burma, Japan, Thailand and other Eastern countries. But there was a difference between Judge and Olcott. Col. Olcott was healthy and also became famous in India as a magnetic healer, until warned by the Master to stop. Judge, on the other hand had contracted Chagres fever (back-water fever which attacks the liver) in Columbia or Mexico where he went between 1876 and 1883, as a young man, for some of his New York clients who had mining interests there, and he was frail physically ever afterwards. The lingering disease was known to carry off the person in the course of some 21 years. The last three years of his life were noticeably those of a very sick man. His energy was spent as an organizer and as a writer. the magazine The Path contains most of his extensive writings. 1919 - 1922 BPW attempted during over two years (1920-21) to bring a change in the attitude of the "leaders" of the T S at Adyar and elsewhere. He kept pointing to the true Lines that were indicated in the Theosophy of HPB, and the S D. In this effort he worked with Annie Besant, and other leaders of the Theosophical Society in Adyar, trying to secure their understanding of the wrong that had been done to Mr. Judge and to the whole of the Theosophical Society in America, as well as to members everywhere within the T S, from 1895 onward. BPW determined to find out if the breach could be repaired, and if the unity of the Theosophical Movement could be restored by Mrs. Besant, joining with him, and others, to mend the misunderstandings that had caused the unbrotherly break of 1895. After several heart to heart conversations in 1920-21 with Mrs. Besant, BPW found that while she admitted to him in private that what had been done against Mr. Judge and the "Theosophical Society in America," 25 years back, was wrong, she refused to make a public retraction and restore Judge's fair name in T S Theosophical circles. 1920 In July 1920 BPW, as a delegate from India, attended the Convention of the American Section T.S. in Chicago. By this time, he had become a member of the American Section of the T.S. A question arose about the authority of the officers, particularly the President in the administration of the American Section T S, Resolutions were framed to permit the President of that American Section's Administration to expel members who criticized its officers for "autocratic and underhand methods of administration." Mr. Wadia opposed such resolutions as that would muzzle free speech. The President of the American Section T S, at that time desired to apply this to suppress and quell criticism of certain actions he had taken without securing the prior approval of the Council of the American Section. [ see O. E. Library Critic issues 1919-23 for more details about the forcing on the T S membership in America of mandatory membership in the Liberal [Old] Catholic Church, the Star of the East, and Co-Masonry.] Mr. Wadia's opposition to the high-handed methods of the President of the American Section T S, galvanized a great measure of opposition to this objective, and the thwarted President then wrote to Mrs. Besant (as the International President T.S., at Adyar) complaining of Mr. Wadia's "interference" in local affairs. Mrs. Besant replied, upholding Mr. Wadia's stand on principles, (since he was a member of the American Section also) while deploring his possible "interference." She said that her acquaintance with Mr. Wadia for many years had confirmed her entire trust and respect for him. But, she added, they did not always agree. From Adyar on Sept. 20th 1920, Mr. Wadia wrote a letter that answered points made publicly by the president in the American Section, and sent copies of it to members of the T S Section in America. He wrote, in summary : Criticism should never be grounds for expulsion of any member. Majority vote should rule all matters of administration. While in America and staying at Krotona, Hollywood (now moved to Ojai), he encountered evidence of wrong principles and wrong methods apparently used by certain administrators in the American Section. He was then slandered by those officials, and a complaint had been lodged in Adyar with Mrs. Besant, International President T S. Mr. Wadia proceeded to expose publicly what was going on. He stood for the principles of clear speech and an exposure of such matters, as it concerned all members who were free to vote. He returned in 1920 to Europe, and traveled to Paris to attend the World Congress of the T S there. Thereafter he was asked to visit a number of countries where T S Branches were active; he visited Belgium, lecturing in Brussels, Antwerp, Ghent, Ostend, Liege, Charleroi, Marianwelz. 19 lectures delivered, two at the Universite Internationale. He was enthusiastically received and listened to by those engaged in labor reform and by their members, the workers themselves. He received, then, an invitation to attend the First World Congress of Psychical Research, to meet in Copenhagen; and another from the Third World Brotherhood Congress, to meet in Prague. As he was not able to go to either of them he sent papers, which were received and read with satisfaction. Following Belgium, he visited Holland, where he worked for 2 weeks, 56 meetings were held. Copenhagen was next visited where 4 talks were given to various groups. Then, on to Sweden, Malmo, Goteborg, Gefle, Stockholm; then to Oslo, Norway, where the Annual Convention of the Norwegian T S was held. Next to Helsinki, Finland. A tour which began in Marseilles in the South of France on February 20th ended October 20th 1920 in Finland. He then sailed back to India. 1921 Meanwhile, the Government of India in 1921 appointed Mr. Wadia a member of the Indian Delegation to the Second International Labor Conference under the League of Nations, which was to meet in Geneva, Switzerland, October 25th, 1921 and this was to be continued for a month. This necessitated a second trip to Europe, and In November 1921, after the conference, Mr. Wadia again sailed for America and thereafter he returned to make his final efforts in Adyar--and these being unsuccessful, he resigned in July 1922. July 18th 1922 B.P.Wadia resigned from the Theosophical Society on the 18th of July 1922. He broadcast his reasons for this resignation widely to members of the TS. He also advised them of his joining the U L T because of its impersonal policy, and its one-pointed work focussed on Original Theosophy, as taught by H.P.Blavatsky. He stated there that he would be working thenceforth for Theosophy through the United Lodge of Theosophists, which of all existing Theosophical bodies, was the one that he had found to be closest in ideal and practice to the original program of the Theosophical Society as started by the Masters, with, Mme. Blavatsky as Their Agent, Col. H.S.Olcott as President for Life, and with Mr. W.Q.Judge as Counsel to the Society, and later as General Secretary of the American Section T.S. BPW, stated that he did not "look back," nor did he mention or apologize for what he had written earlier in support of the policies of Mrs. Besant, and others of the leaders of the Theosophical Society in the period when he was a member between 1903 and 1922. That door was closed. He thereafter directed the whole thrust of his energy and work into the United Lodge of Theosophists, which was effectively using methods of work that exemplified the principles outlined in the original program of the Masters. These are embodied in the Declaration of the U L T. Continued in Part 3 of 7 =============================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:59:02 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 6 of 7 Wad-bb1 (wad-f6)/WAD-BB Continued from 5 of 7 After the opening of the Bangalore Lodge, which was only about 190 miles away from Ooty, he generally cut short his stay in Ooty to come and work intensively with the Bangalore Lodge until the active season brought him back to Bombay around mid- August. Bombay is about 800 miles North West of Bangalore. Even then, there was no such thing as a general invitation to associates to come for a joint vacation, joint study, etc...as the TS seems to do in America (Krotona, Ojai. England. Switzerland, and other countries.) So I have had some doubts about the practice, as it is seems to me to be physically and psychically "pleasing" to the personality, but lacks a certain feeling of the intensive work and discipline directed to perfecting the personality connected with it. If you read WQJ's Practical Theosophy (Judge Articles, Vol. II, p. 395...) you will see that Mr. Judge recommends the promulgation of Karma and Reincarnation as being our primary tasks. That is active, not passive. If you study Mr. Judge's work, he was constantly encouraging his friends to work, to promulgate, to seek for those souls who might be interested in the message of Theosophy. All of Mr. Judge's time and all the money that came to him for Theosophical use was employed in this. The funds of the T S in America were spent right away in this work of promulgation, and they provided great results. In letters written to Col. Olcott, Judge states that the money received ought to be translated into active work for Theosophy immediately, and not "laid up" in a "fund" for some future use. [see WQJ - "On Funds and Property," The Path, Vol. 8, p. 354] ========================== ANSWER TO QUESTION: Was Mr. Wadia beginning a revolution in Adyar in the period around 1918/20 ? This you say has been rumored and where there is a fire there is smoke, etc... ? ANSWER by WK: In November 1958, Miss Ethel Beswick, who had been working with Mr. Wadia and Mr. T. L. Crombie in Adyar during the period around 1918-1920 wrote a short biographical sketch of the late Mr. T. L. Crombie's life. From this we read:-- "...as the years passed he (Crombie) became increasingly dissatisfied with the part played by the T.S. in the world, for he realized more and more that Theosophy pure and simple was not being taught and the great mission of the Theosophical Movement of our century was being lost sight of. The psychic pronouncement of Mr Leadbeater were ousting the works of Madame Blavatsky, and the great ideal of the Masters of Wisdom was being degraded. Living in Adyar itself he continued his friendship with B.P.Wadia and his respect grew. He recognized Shri Wadia's integrity of character and devotion to H.P.Blavatsky and Theosophy, and they discussed what could be done to bring the Society once again in line with the Original Impulse of the Movement.. Could a change be brought about within the Society? If not, then it would have to be done from outside. Plans began to be made so that if all efforts to bring the change from within the Society failed another effort could be made which would bring Theosophy pure and simple back into the world. These plans included the founding of an international magazine in which writers of the world would be free to express the their views, in which Theosophical principles could be expounded, and where writers who were struggling to pierce through the ordinary levels of thought into the universal could find expression. Further, H.P.Blavatsky had said that it was the duty of the Society to see that its members were kept in touch with the organization, and a magazine The Vahan had been started in her time and sent free, at first, to members. Something along this line would be needed for those Theosophical students who wished to study Theosophy, and though it would not be sent free to all, the cost would be kept down to the minimum. One other very important thing had to be done. One of the Founders of the Theosophical Society in 1875, Mr. William Quan Judge, the faithful pupil and co-worker with H.P.B., who had died in 1896, had to be brought from the disgrace into which he had been thrust to his true position in the Theosophic world. If, as H.P.B. had stated in her first book Isis Unveiled it is the duty of a Theosophist to remove the slur on "calumniated reputations," then it was surely a Theosophic duty to clear up the position as regards Mr. Judge. If this could not be done, after strenuous efforts, within the Society, then it would have to be done outside. To have a permanent home in India the present house [originally named "Brookhampton," renamed: "Guru Mandir" by Mr. Wadia] in Ootacamund was bought. Possibilities of a change in India looked poor in 1921 when Shri B.P.Wadia left India for Europe and America--his second visit. By July 1922 he had lost all hope of any such change and resigned his membership...Some months later Mr. Crombie left Adyar and resigned from the Society... >From 1922 to 1928 Shri B.P.Wadia was in the United States working with the United Lodge of Theosophists, a body of students of Theosophy devoted to studying the works of Madame Blavatsky and Mr. Judge, without officials, dues or regulations. In collaboration with the parent Lodge at Los Angeles, founded by Mr. Robert Crosbie in 1909, he founded Lodges in New York, Washington D.C., and Philadelphia. Plans were made for republishing the writings of H.P.B. and W.Q.J., and in 1925, the 50th anniversary of the birth of the Theosophical Movement of this century, an edition was published of The Secret Doctrine ...unaltered in any way... Mr. Crombie visited Mr. Wadia in New York and the plans already formulated took firmer shape... In 1928 Shri Wadia's work in the U.S.A. being finished he left for India via London...the U.L.T. was founded in Paris and plans were made for one in Amsterdam... [This is quoted from pp 2-4 of Theodore Leslie Crombie, Friend of India, by Ethel Beswick -- Nov. 1958,, Pub.: International Book House Ltd., 9 Ash Lane, Bombay 1, India] Further Extracts from a Private Letter - WK - "...similarly, the work of Mr. Wadia. His faithfulness to HPB, WQJ, and to the ideals of Theosophy, and function of the ULT are all reflected in his writings. Originally, when he knew only of the TS and made himself into a student of HPB through his study of The Secret Doctrine, and of Isis Unveiled, he followed faithfully the policies of the T S, so long as he was in it and had responsibility to it. When he entered Adyar to work there, Col. Olcott was still alive. He gave his pledge then to that venerable (though often mistaken) man to work for Theosophy under him. Olcott accepted this offer. After Olcott' death, he gave the same pledge to Annie Besant, believing her to be the one primarily responsible for carrying on the work of HPB. [ He knew nothing at that time of W. Q. Judge, or of the history of the split in the TS in America after HPB's death. Those matters had been, by then, covered over and largely forgotten in the TS in Adyar, in India. ] When, in 1919, he went to America and learned of the work and the principles of WQJ through associates of the ULT, and of the true history of the modern Theosophical Movement, he realized that a change was to be made by him to be true to his primary vow: to HPB, and to the support of her work and of the Objects of The Work in the World that the Masters had instituted through Her. It had been made clear to him how the T S had failed. He knew that the T S ought to be restored to its original objectives and work, but he did not know if Annie Besant would agree to do that. In any case he was faced with a trial: whether to stay on with the T S, which he now knew to be false to its origins, or whether he should try to redress it, by going directly to Annie Besant, and asking her to publicly redress the wrongs done to Mr. Judge, and thus begin the hard process of swinging the whole T S back into the channels that HPB and the Masters had originally designed it should follow. When he returned to India in 1921-22, after his work in Europe and America, he told Annie Besant what he had discovered about Judge, and about the band of students in the ULT who were following the Original Program. He asked her to make it public that the wrong done to Judge was to be redressed--as she agreed had been done, to him, privately. But, Annie Besant refused to do this publicly, or to start altering the course of the TS. He then resigned, and, getting out of the TS, wrote a magnificent open letter to all Theosophists where he exposed the situation, his own decision, and advised them of his joining the ULT and his reasons for that: to "spread broadcast the writings of HPB and WQJ." W. E. Whiteman on BPW [The following is from the pen of Mr. Wadia's long time friend and devoted companion: Winifred E. Whiteman of the London, U.K., U.L.T. Miss Whiteman served as his literary "agent" in Europe, securing articles for The Aryan Path magazine (1930-1960); and also serving as European representative for The Indian Institute of World Culture, which he had launched in Bangalore, India, in 1945, and for which she organized a London branch. ] B. P. Wadia and the Theosophical Movement "The mighty Theosophical Movement" was a phrase that 'B.P.' often used, and the adjective seems to match him also--even to his sense of humor. We owe the creative and inspiring guidelines, that reinforce and augment those of Robert Crosbie, the founder of the United Lodge of Theosophists [U.L.T.], to the breadth as well as the depth of his outlook. In the opening Editorial of Volume I of The Theosophical Movement, 17th November 1930, (exactly a year after the Bombay Lodge had started up the U.L.T. work in India) appeared the following, that echoed the idea that 'B.P.' had himself expressed. There are two aspects to the Theosophical Movement, the abstract and the concrete. The first is diffused and expansive. Wherever thought has struggled to be free, wherever spiritual ideas, as opposed to forms and dogmatism, have been promulgated, there the great Movement is to be discerned. This aspect can rightly be named the Republic of Conscience; for, wherever human conscience is ac6M3 ive, in honesty and sincerity, there the potency of Theosophy is present. The Aryan Path (founded January 1930) is the vehicle of this aspect of the Movement, while it also presents teachings of practical value to the aspirant for the Higher Life and to the students of the esoteric science. The other, the concrete and visible aspect of the Movement revolves round the Teachings of H.P.B. known to the world as H. P. Blavatsky. Accepting the cooperation of others she founded the Theosophical Society in 1875 in the city of New York, under the direct guidance and inspiration of the Masters, who by birth and affiliation are Indians. The U.L.T. activities, and the magazine Theosophy (started November 1912) and The Theosophical Movement were founded to serve the needs of student-servers of 'Theosophy pure and simple.' The Aryan Path brought in contributors, many of them prominent in their own fields, whose writings and general outlook were significantly part of the more diffused aspect of the Movement, so much so that The Theosophical Movement, in its section 'Theosophical Activities' gave it equal mention with those of more specific Theosophical import. The same ideal and purpose were behind the founding of the Indian Institute of Culture (as it was named at first) at Bangalore on 11th August 1945 (H.P.B.'s birthday) thus affirming again the link between the two aspects of the Movement. The word "World" was included later in its title to emphasize the breadth of the ideal. The need to recognize the relationship between the two fields of Theosophical service continued to be referred to periodically in The Theosophical Movement. An article published in its 17th of December 1935 issue. entitled "The Aryan Path" emphasized its dual purpose. It was to make the East and the West aware of the beauty and value of each other's culture, and also to give help to the "very large body of aspirants to the higher life outside of Theosophical circles" in avoiding the dangers of sectarianism and psychism. Secondly, that purpose included Theosophists also, for, as a Master wrote: "The sun of Theosophy must shine for all, not for a part. There is more of this movement than you have had an inkling of, and the work of the T.S. is linked in with similar work that is secretly going on in all parts of the world." The article further warned: "The Theosophical student of this generation has to guard himself against two extremes: one is to limit the freedom of thought and to live like a frog who looks upon his pond as the world, with nothing outside; the other is to expand and embrace indiscriminately--in the name of brotherhood and fraternization--falsehood, ignorance and humbug." The Aryan Path enables the Theosophical student to learn what able minds in East and West alike are thinking and how many among them understand propositions of the philosophy of Theosophy even better than himself and his companions. It will also show him how the race-mind is unfolding and in what ways humanity is getting ready for the cycle of 1975. If The Aryan path takes Theosophy to the thinking public, it brings in a compact form to the Theosophical student from the world of science, philosophy and art, ideas and views and even inspiration which he sorely needs and so helps him to live and to labor for his Cause in a better fashion. A further article "Local Theosophists" (The Theosophical Movement, 17th Nov. 1938) quoted from H.P.B.'s Five Messages that "although there must be local Branches...there can be no local Theosophists." The world is wider than any Theosophical organization, and if we would be universal in character, we must fight against narrowness and keep our interest in what is going on in the outside world. And we shall find that there we have our friends and allies...is the "local Theosophist" going to pass by unheeded a book like Mr. Aldous Huxley's Ends and Means, simply because H.P.B. is not quoted from or mentioned, therein ? Is the power of the Spirit in man to be limited to"Theosophical organizations" only ? Perish the thought ! We have to look for Theosophical ideas, ideas which, largely owing to the life of sacrifice of H.P.B. have percolated (albeit unconsciously to themselves) into the minds of our great thinkers--and welcome them whenever and wherever we find them. The magazine, however, was only the starting point, for, once the last World War was over, the same aim and purpose was further developed, spreading out into the broader field of the Indian Institute of World Culture. This, in addition to its publications, offers a wide range of talks, exhibitions, drama, dance, film shows and other demonstrations, in furtherance of its objectives. In his Inaugural Address at the opening of the William Quan Judge Hostel for students (the Institute's first unit) B.P. declared that "in the great and immemorial records of the thoughts of Sages and Seers certain definite principles of fundamental value are to be found." Poets are better social builders than politicians, and the thoughts of philosophers make a deeper impress and last longer in influence than deeds of social reformers. Ideas rule the world and they primarily emanate from poets and philosophers, from mystics and occultists. These great ideas make most suitable foundations. Once their efficacy is experienced in application by an individual he leaves behind the world of chaos and strife and begins to glimpse a world of order, understanding and peace...the Hostel is part of a larger plan, through which the Ancient Culture which is neither of the East nor of the West but is universal, will, it is hope, become manifest. In the spirit of fraternity and brotherhood men and women must learn to live in freedom and liberty. But the heart of B.P.'s efforts was his 'concern' (in the Quaker sense of the word) for those student-strivers who sought more ardently for greater power to help the Movement. Only those who know fully the range of his personal contacts and widespread correspondence could evaluate the measure of the effects on these of his advice, encouragement and profound heart wisdom. The bringing together of some of his articles from The Theosophical Movement in the little book Living the Life can be summed up in a sentence from the ending of the first article, a mantram that B.P.'s own life embodied: Continued in Part 7 of 7 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:03:19 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 4 of 7 WAD-BA-1 (Wad-f4)/wad-ba/WAD-B Continued from Part 3 of 7 1942 During the second World War, several students of ULT were suddenly transferred by their employers to new locations in the country. A number of them set up Study Classes and drew to themselves others who became in their turn students of Theosophy. Such Study Groups were formed in their homes in New Delhi (which in l960 became a Lodge), Calcutta, Poona, Baroda, and Madras. On the 12th of August 1942, the Bangalore Lodge of ULT was opened. A building named "Maitri Bhavan" (Abode of Friends) at 15, Sir Krishna Rao Rd., Basavangudi, Bangalore 4, houses a central hall for meetings, lectures, and study classes; a library devoted to Theosophical reference books; and also residential quarters for visiting students. It conducts a publishing program that is complementary to, and in harmony with that which the Bombay Lodge runs. In this work it has reprinted the many pamphlets that make the articles of HPB and WQJ available to students at low cost following the pattern adopted earlier by the Los Angeles Lodge. 1945 In 1945, on August 11th, the Indian Institute of Culture was started by Mr. Wadia, with Dr. L. S. Doraiswamy, as its first Secretary. This was to be an extension of Theosophical work, in line with the 2nd Object of the Theosophical Movement. This was designed to bring to Bangalore learned persons from many countries who were visiting India, who were asked to lecture or give short courses in their specialties there. It also served as a forum for prominent Indian specialists to lecture on their investigations and findings. Later the name of this institution was changed to The Indian Institute of World Culture. It houses a large library, sponsors many regular programs of talks, musical recitals, seminars. And, it has a substantial publishing program of books, transactions and pamphlets in addition to its regular monthly Bulletin. The inaugural meeting and many subsequent meetings were held at No. 1, North Public Square Rd. Some years later over an acre of land was acquired at No. 6, North Public Square Rd. for the IIWC Institute, and buildings were erected. These include a lecture hall, the Wm. Q. Judge Hostel for students, a Library, and other buildings. In 1959, following Mr. Wadia's death ( Aug. 20th l958 ), North Public Square Road was renamed by the Bangalore Municipality and citizenry: B. P. Wadia Road. 1955 On the 18th of February 1955 Mr. Wadia laid the corner stone for the present home of the ULT in Bombay at 40 New Marine Lines, ( Theosophy Hall ). 328 persons from several countries attended this foundation ceremony. 1957 November 9th 1957, in Bangalore, saw the opening of the New Lecture Hall of the Indian Institute of World Culture by the Maharaja of Mysore, (he was also Mysore State's first Governor in Independent India) at 6 North Pubic Square Rd. in the Basavangudi quarter of Bangalore. At that time Mr. Wadia, who welcomed the Maharaja, renamed the Institute so that it now included the word: "World." On November 17th 1957 Theosophy Hall in Bombay was inaugurated at 6.15 p.m. by Mr. Wadia. The auditorium and balcony built to accommodate 500 was overflowing and people stood in the aisles. Over 700 were counted. ULT associates from all over India and several foreign countries came for the event. The building houses on two floors the main auditorium, above are two more floors devoted to the ULT offices and the Reference Library--(over 120,000 books and pamphlets available ). The Indian P.E.N. has another floor devoted to its offices. The top two floors are apartments for associated who work at the Lodge. 1958 August 11th 1958 was to be the Foundation Day lecture at the IIWC. It was to be given by Mr. Wadia, who had been ill for some days. He had prepared a talk under the title: Our Soul's Need (later reprinted). He began reading it, but his voice grew weaker, and he turned the reading over to Mrs. Wadia, who finished it, while he waited in a chair at the back of the auditorium. A copy of this had been mailed earlier to Bombay, where on the same day at 4.30 p.m. a number of students gathered in the Library to read it. August 20th 1958 early in the pre-dawn of Bangalore, the intimate friends of Mr. Wadia received an emergency call. The time was 2.20 a.m. He knew that he was approaching death and desired to speak to them of the future. He spoke of the changes that the cycles had brought to him. He reviewed some past incidents in his life. His first meeting with the Master in the "Brahma-Vishnu-Siva Cave" in 1907; his vision of HPB early during his stay in Adyar (November 1918), which two events he said had inspired his life. He indicated that there would be changes now, and that responsibility would thenceforth have to be shared among those who had been near to him in the work, and who would survive him. It was not until that evening, that he actually passed away. The time of the death of his body was 7.17 p.m. His friends met immediately after the event and read from the devotional books he loved: the Bhagavad Gita, Voice of the Silence, and Light of Asia. Cremation was the next morning at Chamrajpet, a suburb of Bangalore. Addendum B. P. Wadia - Additional Notes Memorandum from Wane Kell (Extracts from a letter 1992) : "B.P.Wadia was a friend of my parents when I was born (Los Angeles, Dec. 1922). I have lived close to Mr. Wadia, and worked with, and for him, directly and indirectly, until his death in 1958. I hold him in the highest respect, and have studied his life and his works for all these years; also, comparing his writings with those of HPB and WQJ on Theosophy. Here was a man who lived to help others--in the sense that Tom Paine wrote: "His country was the World, and "to do good" was his religion." Common-sense and decency demand that no one person, or cabal dominate others for whatever pretext through coercive means, especially in the T S where Brotherhood is the only object that all members have subscribed to. If one could not tolerate an emergent abuse of principle, the first and only recourse of a "pledged" person is resignation. This can only, after strenuous attempts at reconciliation, be done individually, not as a group. A "group" is not essential for the kind of help and support that the world needs, but there is no reason why any student who is devoted to Masters, to HPB, and to Their Theosophy, cannot start where he is and organize a study center with whatever persons Karma may bring around him. It is all in the will, the motive, and a matter of sincerity, of an inner devotion to HPB, to the Masters, and to Theosophy, and above all, a grand, embracing and all-inclusive love for Humanity as a whole. Mr. Judge, in the expansion of Theosophy in America, after 1886, took advantage of the wave of interest that arose, and which, in many places, he stated was the result of Adept influence felt all over the country by those individuals whose karma made them sensitive to it. Recently a fine biography on the life of HPB, and bearing that title, by Sylvia Cranston has been issued, the first printing sold out in 6 weeks time, with little advertisement. [By November 1993 over 10,000 copies had been sold. Over 1,800 were distributed to University Libraries in the USA. A 6th printing is being made and 1995 will find that a paper back edition is to be issued. French, German, Dutch, Italian, and Russian translations are being arranged for.] Students of Theosophy could take advantage of this. The participation of Theosophical bodies at the Centenary commemora6M3 ion of the Parliament of Religions in Chicago ( Aug/Sept. 1993 ) underlines the significance of Theosophy, now, as it was in 1893. I enclose a "bio-chronology" on Mr. Judge, showing the enormous value of his contribution to the Movement, if you will review the synopsis of Annual Reports he issued as "General Secretary, Amer. Sec. T. S.," included therein, you will see how he caused the work to expand, employing many fine ideas, and the energies of many volunteers. There is early evidence of a type of misunderstanding in T S history in Adyar, that which relates to "authority," to an expectation that individual members and Branches of the T.S. would accept and comply with, in docile conformity and acceptance, to such "orders" as the President, Col. Olcott, PTS might issue from "Adyar." HPB will be found to have been one of the first to protest and resist this authoritarianism. In her article: "A Puzzle from Adyar," (HPB Articles, Vol. II, p 217; U.L.T.) she points to the ethical and personal principles of Theosophical application every member can employ. These she declares are transcendent to any "orders" issued from Adyar, whether by the President, or any other person or body that claimed authority, to direct the activities and thought of the membership. She claimed that the essence all effort as also of Theosophical application, was the self-induced and self-devised decisions made by individual members. It was a putting into effect the ethics of Theosophy based on the independent understanding and choice of each member. This is how Karma operates. This is how all mankind and every being in the Universe progresses: on their own independent decisions at whatever their level of intelligence or consciousness. The first "sin against Brotherhood" openly committed after HPB's death, was Olcott's action in declaring that Mr. Judge and the "American Section T.S." as a whole, had seceded, when, in April 1895, it elected to become an affiliated, but independently administered "T.S. in America." He seems to have forgotten that earlier he had indicated that he had no objection to such an independence. Now, in seeming retaliation for his loss of direct control he refused to consider the further actions of the "T.S.in America," which, had registered its desire to remain in fraternal affiliation with the T.S. Sections, Branches and Fellows in Adyar and elsewhere. He then presented at a General Meeting of the European Section T.S. resolutions (in 1895) excommunicating the membership of the T.S.in A, naming Mr. Judge, its President, and all other members "seceders." The principle of local autonomy had been agreed to years earlier by him. First, Mr. Sinnett insisted since 1883 that the London Lodge of the T.S. should remain entirely independent of his control, to which he agreed. Later, he wrote to Mr. Judge and to HPB that he had no objection to the formation of independent Sections. The implementation of local independence had been arranged by the formation, in turn of the "American Sec6M3 ion," the "British Section," and the "European Section" of the T.S. The reason for the creation of these several "sections" was the rapid expansion of the membership of the T S, and, so as to avoid the delays and the slowness in administrative matters of detail, when those were concentrated in the President's office in Adyar, India - also, because he was frequently absent on tours of duty. Mail was slow and thus detail suffered, as correspondence with Judge and HPB reveals. Certain problems had also arisen in Adyar among the staff there which led to inaccuracy and delays. Legally, it could be treated as a secession of the T.S. outside of America, as a whole, led by its President: Col. Olcott, from its original and legal source and center, which had never changed: in New York. This is a fact in History ! In every case, the imposition of "authoritarian" rule coupled with the failure to apply fair ethical principles in administration has led to ill feelings among members, and a failure in the moral/ethical integrity of those involved became apparent. Both the enforcers and those who accepted enforcement, without insisting that common-sense ethical principles be rigidly upheld, have caused the debasing of the esoteric and the exoteric bodies. Most struggles have revolved around money and power, which True Theosophy has nothing to do with. ... Clear speech on sound principles is the only way that any TS "organization/association/group, etc." can run. The "conference method" is the only one in which a reasonable consensus can be gained. We are long past the era of authoritarianism, or rule by right of royal, or of "apostolic succession," the laying on of hands, etc. All those things open the doors to some form of sectarianism, and generally an abuse of power for personal benefit. Pity the future of those people who follow blindly self-seekers and claimants of various stripes. We need to apply our knowledge of Karma, reincarnation and derive from Theosophy such moral and ethical bases for our decisions as will revolutionize the world in a true sense. Brotherhood in practice will alone do this. Essentially, administration in a truly Theosophical body, ought to be a form of practical, cooperative "anarchy." Local units establish a bond of mutual trust, based on common-sense principles that are universal and impartial. It is a total elimination of any personal or "partisan" interest. If such a situation is not possible, then the eventual spiritual and material failure of any T S organization can be predicted with invariable accuracy. It is for this reason that Mr. Wadia in 1919-20, after finding how Judge had been treated by the conspirators (Olcott, A. Besant, B. Keightley, Olds, Edge, and others ) of 1893-6, on his return to India and Adyar, first protested directly to Mrs. Annie Besant (who privately agreed that he was right. But, she said to him that although Mr. Judge had been unfairly treated she was unwilling at that time to make any further public redress beyond what she had already written in her article "Theosophical Worthies" in 1909 in the Theosophist. If one refers to the book entitled The Theosophical Movement (1875-1925), and 25 years later, an updated edition. covering the period (1875-1950), all the documents issued, and the sequence of events will be found given. There are no mysteries left. Most of what has been written pro- and con- the doings of the individuals involved in the T S can be independently reviewed using documents. It now becomes the responsibility of those who read these statements to verify them for themselves and then to decide how to act individually. One might be led to conclude that when individuals abandon the impersonal application of the philosophy of Theosophy for the sake of an Organization, they get nothing but a seared and dried-up shell. Thereafter, they may be assuming the dangerous Karma of misguiding their contemporaries and misleading millions of people still unborn. A heavy Karma rests on even minor decisions made by any student of Theosophy at a time such as this. If we take it to be true, as the Great Master stated, that the "TS was chosen to be the corner-stone for the future religions of humanity." We are now living hardly 125 years since the repromulgation of Theosophy and therefore are privileged to be involved in this formative, foundational work. We may assume that the tests and the decisions that rest on us are of great magnitude and we should be most careful. Whatever we are, and however we may rate ourselves, it is a Karmic opportunity for us. Loyal adherence to a "power group" is like backing the Church Fathers of the early centuries of Christianity, as they went cutting, paring, twisting, interpolating and adjusting their selections from current, and from ancient scriptures, and the Gospels, to fashion a Credo, and a Church that would serve the needs of black magic to enslave the masses for many centuries into the future, right up to about 300 years ago, when the Reformation began in various centers of Europe. They were so clever that they succeeded in almost entirely concealing their work. In preventing their descendants by taboos, from discovering the traces of their malefactions, they condemned millions of faithful but ignorant adherents to be duped by impossible and absurd explanations, rites, ceremonies and promises which are entirely illogical and certainly not verifiable - the creeds and beliefs (so called rites and sacraments) of the Christian Churches. The publication, in 1896 of the "Third and Revised Edition of the Secret Doctrine," [with over 40,000 alterations from the "Original Edition" of 1888 - which, needless to say HPB had not authorized or supervised], and the addition to that of an entirely spurious "Third Volume," [ this 3rd Vol. contrary to HPB statements made in The Secret Doctrine, Vols. 1 and 11, gives adequate indication of the seriousness of the disease.] A careful reading of the 2nd Vol. of Isis Unveiled will show so many parallels, historically, to this creedal trend, that one should not be surprised, but only feel deep sorrow, that so many have failed to abide by their pledged "word of honor." How can anyone who breaks that, be thereafter trusted ? If one desires to write a biographical apercu of Mr. Wadia' life and work, with emphasis on his work in the U S and Canada, the Canadian Theosophist for the months of 1919/20 carried the most detailed reports of his lectures. When in America, the American Theosophist did the same. As soon as his resignation from the T S became known, they dropped further mention of him. Continued in Part 5 of 7 ================ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:55:18 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 5 of 7 Wad-ba2 (wad-f5) Continued from Part 4 of 7 Miss Jeanne Sims of Los Angeles might know more of Mr. Wadia's life and work. She was helpful in providing copies of her work compiled from Mr. Wadia's writings. I would say, by and large, that the record left us, in writing, is the most reliable of those of individual worth. We have, fortunately had some great personages who have supported and worked for Theosophy in those remnants of the T S that ought to be vigorously pursuing the work that HPB died to give to us. In the ranks of the anonymous ULT students who have patiently and perseveringly carried on the work of preservation, of study, and of promulgation of the original teachings of Theosophy very little is known or referred to. Emphasis is given to those teachings, not to the people who have made U.L.T. successful in its work, so far. If you have not seriously studied the work of the ULT, you ought to do that. It gives no eminence to anyone. It responds to the need of those who wish to study and to work for Theosophy. Those who seek no recompense or personal stature, and who are moved only by a sense of the debt they owe to HPB, to WQJ, and, behind them, stand the Masters, and to their brother men--humanity. They are especially grateful to all the Great Ones who have kept the grand ideals alive. And, understanding Their love for Humanity as a whole, are those who support and work for it. They abandon ( while not being ignorant of ) any "official" considerations such as those offered by organizations like the various T.S.'s or their offshoots. In that impersonal principle and its strict application lies ULT's inherent strength. Its Declaration, and the implication of self-discipline and of cooperation with ones' fellows as embodied there, preclude any personal aggrandizement. It enshrines a self-cleansing nature which combs out those who prove to be unfit to keep its vitality alive. If this is applied successfully by our descendants, then it will continue constructively for a while. But I can anticipate that eventually it may fail. From 1909 up to now (1995) is 86 years. The greatest barrier to those who might desire to "join" the ULT is the lack of recognition of a personal nature that they will receive. They will have all the responsibilities and none of the advertising ! But consider the fact that we are all immortals - they will have to pick up from where they left off in the next life -- we always do. There is a real power in a strenuous life for Theosophy. But this cannot be confined by anyone. It has to be diffused, and the wider, the better. So long as the ULT retains its independent-dependence it will serve as the "Voice of Conscience" for Theosophists in the world. The hot flame of truth in action burns away all useless chaff from the "golden grain" of duty. Its main purpose is to see that the original teachings of Theosophy are faithfully made available to inquirers. When this task was first entrusted to the other "societies," it was soon noticed that "Editorial changes, emendations, deletions and alterations" crept in, so as to obscure those originals, and make more difficult to find those instructions which those who are innately esotericists seek. This is a great danger. It is, in effect, the arrogation to ones' self a knowledge that pretends to transcend that of HPB and the Masters. Even the ULT has, and will undergo "shocks." There are constant attempts to cause minor and major disruptions. Only the Declaration (and its constant use and study) provides a "shield" for these to glance off of relatively harmlessly. Now consider with me the action that Mr. Wadia chose to take, and make of his capacities a part of the supportive understructure of this "shield," and add to the penetrating work of "true Theosophy." This does not mean that an independent T S -- as all Branches were deemed to be, and as, for instance, the Edmonton Lodge in Canada is -- cannot use and apply identical principles. It was originally intended that the individual T S es would be exactly like the free and independent but confederated states that entered into the same Union as the USA did. No one state could rule another and the Federation was intended as administrative expediency and coordination, not rule. This has been the source of abuse of all democratic states. where the central federation has made of itself, and of some of its more powerfully conniving units (persons) rulers. Unfortunately Olcott in his zeal to administer problems fairly, made it autocratic. It is said that the Mission, the work of HPB was to "change the Manas and the Buddhi of the Race." [W.Q.J.LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME, p. 72] This is a peculiar phrase, but one which is vibrant with the effort of the spiritual will--how best to move millions of minds and psyches to a consciousness of their own worth, to the sense of the independence that an immortal, eternal Being has inherently? That, destroys ignorance and "blind servitude" to any personal authority. We are now watching the unfolding of this process all around us, and all over the world. How can we best help? Precept and example do this. Keeping the purity of Theosophy alive and active in the world is the most essential thing that anyone can do. Reviving old corpses, is an exercise in wasting good energy. In effect it is an attempt to reverse the past; whereas a fresh beginning usually, under Karma, attracts those minds and hearts that are searching for Theosophy. The old group, if they wanted Theosophy would not have let the organization founder! The failure to apply brotherhood is that which has caused all the failures in the recent revival of the Theosophical Movement. It is time now for self-healing, if possible. Establishing new bodies for work takes time, but if the old cannot be brought back to the original lines, then that is what has to be done. Hence the establishment and support of the ULT activity, where such delays ought to be precluded. Mr. Wadia made a personal change to devoting his life-work and energy to the ULT method - for those strong reasons. Did he submerge himself in it? Yes he did, and he always kept himself behind the ULT, pushing it, its purposes (Theosophy, Brotherhood, Promulgation), and the wider work in the world that the Theosophical Movement entails: The P.E.N., The Indian Institute of World Culture, and The Aryan Path magazine. [You could well ask why he did so. If you consider the various T S organizations around the world, then, and today (1994) you will realize that the ULT affords a totally free and responsible environment where independent study, cooperation, and non-authoritarian interdependence flourishes. So long as the ULT remains true to its Declaration it will offer a safe harbor to all who desire to truly work for humanity in brotherhood without any selfish motives of their own. The masthead of the monthly Program of Activities published by the ULT says it in brief: To Spread Broadcast the Teachings of Theosophy as Recorded in the Writings of H.P.Blavatsky and William Q. Judge.] In America, as another example of this kind of strenuous, impersonal, and wholly devoted work for the betterment of humanity, you have had: Manas magazine, a weekly magazine, edited up to the time of his death, by Henry Geiger - another ULT student for whom Theosophy represented the beacon-light of the Supreme Goal. He was its anonymous editor for over 40 years of devoted, disinterested but intensely practical service [1948-1988]. This magazine complemented and supplemented the work of the older already established magazine The Aryan (Noble) Path, which was started by Mr. Wadia and edited from Bombay from 1929, till his death in 1958 for 30 years.] For a moment, let me ask you to suppose that an Adept, or "HPB," returned, (and Mr. Judge wrote that She would, as soon as it was possible--see WQJ Articles II 214), and desired to work for Theosophy through the existing Theosophical Societies, bodies or groups -- do you think They (around 1920), would struggle with all the "political" posturing, and all the "contorted mind-sets" in the T.S. that currently exist, are partisan, and have the least to do with real Theosophy ? Or would he try to work through some body which was non-political, non-structured, and which insisted on perpetuating the work in original of both HPB and WQJ ? And, at the same time, held the personal nature of each individual student to the lowest possible point of interference in actual work. [ Read, for instance, Mr. Judge's article: "On Funds and Property, Path, Vol. 8, p. 354. ] In other words, would not the U.L.T. present a basis for the culling out of the T.S. of those who remained sincere students and friends of H.P.B. and the Masters ? In Theosophy, work is always available for those who want to work. Many hear the call, and in their hearts they respond, but when it comes to doing, they find reasons why they should refrain or abstain. It is this inner barrier that each has to study, because our success or failure for the present incarnation is to be found, there. Do we work for it, or do we hinder it by rejection, by distortion, or through tamasic indifference and inaction ? Each answers this to himself. The personality that we are, is placed by our karma directly into the Hall of the Two Truths. This is to be found in ancient Egyptian symbology of the after-death state of Amenti, where the Soul is judged, by the "heart" of the defunct being placed in the pan of the scales opposite the "feather" of Truth. Here, we judge ourselves: the Lower Self is that personal self. It is now judging itself in the Light that streams from the Atman our Higher Permanent Self. Mr. Judge in "Letters" uses the symbology of "the inside of a glove," as representing that Lower Self. Some meditation about that word and idea produce interesting results. The cycle that begins around 1975 has come, and is almost passed, as this is written in 1996, the evidence of power and change for the better surrounds us. How could the political, Theosophical, and human changes in Russia and Eastern Europe have come about - virtually bloodlessly - the great revolution in physics towards a use of mysticism and philosophy in describing inter-related disciplines such as chemistry, astronomy, physics and mathematics? Do we need new and sweeping religious brooms? We have Theosophy. But, are we making the best use of it ? It is the duty of the "companions," Judge said, to rediscover and to employ it. Both HPB and Judge prophesied that she might return. Are we sure she hasn't ? She as Ego Sum is just as immortal as we are in our inner essence, so why presume She is dead, or has abandoned those who work in the movement that she and The Masters commenced ? We are all under Her eye, whether we know it or not, or, like it or not! You ask about Mr. Wadia and his function. Do you not think that it was one of sustaining and lending strength in the only area (1919-29) where original Theosophy could be still broadcast? The reprinting of the original texts: Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, Key, Voice, Theos. Glossary, Modern Panarion, 5 Years of Theosophy, HPB and Judge's Magazine Articles -- this was a responsibility assumed by the ULT as those pioneer texts went out-of-print, and when the light of original effort seemed to have waned and paled to a great low for the original T S. ULT has thus served to keep that "beacon light"--the "Phare de l'Inconnu"-- alive and vibrant with some of the original energy. Since then, others, active in the T Ses have picked up their torches. lit them again at that Source, and are carrying on as best they can. It is always and for ever the self-effort that counts. In some cases it is noticed that an appreciation of the functions of the U.L.T., and of each other's contiguous work has paved the way to brotherliness and greater cooperation among all those who employ the word Theosophy to designate their interests. This work of reprinting the "original teachings" was started under Robert Crosbie in Theosophy Magazine, which began its publication in November 1912. It was dedicated to reprint the articles of HPB and Judge that were, by then, out-of-print and unknown to the majority of those that formed the new generation of Theosophists. It is in this area that one can notice by a regular perusal of magazines issued by the various Theosophical bodies, that they have lost contact, as a whole, with the Original Teachings. Such a lack has allowed them to stray from a course originally set for them to pursue. Another of Theosophy magazine's functions was to clear away the confusion and vagueness as to what had actually happened in Theosophical chronology, and make the history of the Theosophical Society and its chief actors (H.P.B., Judge, Olcott and Annie Besant) a matter of public, and accessible record, to students and all other inquirers, and thus, strip away false secrecy, innuendo, hearsay, calumny and other confusions, such as false "authority," by quoting from original documents available to all inquirers. When Mr. Wadia broadcast his resignation from the T S and gave there his reasons, he combed a large number of sincere students and devotees of HPB and WQJ out of the T.S. into centers where the ULT and its "straight HPB Theosophy" would be used and studied by them. It was determined by him, and those others, who had responsibility for the guidance of the ULT work, that an intensive study of what Theosophy actually was, would be the first and most valuable tool to be used by all students. The promulgation and publishing work of the ULT was set to that objective, and continues to be. The study of the "Three Fundamentals" (Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, pp. 13-19), of the "Ancient Source of Theosophy" (Secret Doctrine, I, p. 272, #1) and of the "Ten Propositions of Oriental Psychology" (Isis Unveiled, Vol. II, pp. 587-8) was done at all study-class meetings as a preliminary. The intensive study of THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY by HPB, and of THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by WQJ was then pursued; and the special study of the BHAGAVAD GITA was undertaken. The republishing in photographic format of HPB's larger books (The Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled) was then taken up. The rest of the T.Ses have, since then, been forced to tag along, eventually, when they found that what they were then serving was not nourishing the deeper aspirations of their membership; and, further, they were accused of publishing distorted and obscured versions of HPB's original teachings (when their offerings were compared with the originals). They then reprinted the originals themselves. This has proved a real blessing to inquirers, as everyone now has easy access to those important books and facts through their wider diffusion. A further indication of Theosophy having "arrived" in the circles of Academia is the fact that a number of "graduate students" are found to be studying various aspects of theosophical history and the development of the applications of theosophical principles through the literature available, such as work with and for children. In the departments of Religious Studies in a number of Universities a Professorial Chair has been set up for the study and preservation of Theosophical material, and this has been done all around the world. It is amazing how many minds and hands try to "improve" on HPB. Or say, casually, "Well, if HPB were here now, she would say--this, or--that," and seek to modernize and up-date her, while unconsciously, perhaps, putting themselves forward, either as critics or as equals to HPB and the Masters ! Fortunately, science and good scientists know the value of the S.D., and use it. Those who are in the forefront of mathematics, physics, astronomy and philosophy (not to mention the social sciences, and the sciences that involve the mind, psychology and consciousness) are using it, and are familiar with its teachings and ideas. Unfortunately, there are still many who cannot distinguish Leadbeater divagations from the Esoteric Philosophy of the Ages. But that is another story. Do you have a copy of Margaret Thomas' Theosophy or Neo-Theosophy ? If you can get a copy you will soon see how much Leadbeater and Annie Besant have departed from the sources of pure Theosophy. --- WK FURTHER NOTE (from WK): In regard to your question about instituting the practice of providing a "Summer retreat for students of Theosophy." I can only think of the instance of Mr. Wadia, who owned, before he joined the ULT, a property in Ootacamund in the Nilgiri Mountains of South India. I think that the history of this place is adequately given in my bio-chronological notes on Mr. Wadia. The summer climate in Madras, of daily over 100 degrees and almost 100 per cent humidity, and little or no air-conditioning available, makes this a most punitive climate. The Nilgiris are over 7,000 feet high and the climate there is "an eternal Spring" --average 55/75 degrees. This explains why the property was bought by him. Earlier, HPB and Olcott had purchased near the "Snowdon" mountain a small cottage. Olcott named it "Gulmarg," and he said he would eventually retire to it, but, he never did. [ During World War I, when Mrs. A. Besant and Mr. Wadia were interned by the Govt. of Madras for about 3 months, they were confined to the use of this cottage.] When the active season of the ULT in Bombay came to a close (usually after May 8th) and the pre-monsoon heat and humidity was heavy there, Mr. Wadia would go to Ooty and stay there for several months, and from time to time he would invite other students to visit and stay for a while. He used to say that he could do twice as much writing in Ooty as in Bombay--articles, letters, poured out under his hands. All the correspondence of the Bombay U.L.T. and the I.I.W.C ( other than routine ) was sent to him daily. This he returned immediately, with instructions on handling, or with fully written answers. In other words, his self-assumed burdens did not lessen when he went there. All during his life a 12, 14 or even 16 hour days were habitual work-time for him. Continued in Part 6 of 7 = = = From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:41:44 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 1 of 7 WAD-A1(wad-f1) B P Wadia was a Theosophist well known in India. In Bangalore, the "silicon valley" of India, an important street was named after him. This is the first time I came across a detailed write up on him. I am sure some here would find it interesting. MKR ===================================== B. P. WADIA - A Life of Service to Mankind by Wane Kell __________________________________ 1881 - 1903 Bahman Pestonji Wadia was born on October 8th 1881. He was the eldest son of Pestonji Cursetji Wadia and his wife Mithabai. The Wadia family were originally from Siganpore, near Surat, some 230 miles north of Bombay. They were famed as shipbuilders, the frigate Trincomalee, renamed "Foudroyant" which they built, is still preserved in Portsmouth harbor. It was not a large family and the four children were Bahman, a younger brother named Jehanghir, and two sisters: Manijeh (married Sir Rustum Masani), and Jerbai who never married. Bahman went to the "New High School" conducted by J. D. Bharda and K. B. Marzban in Bombay and took the matriculation examination, but never entered college. Instead, his father (who had stopped shipbuilding and had started a textile business) arranged for him to have experience in and learn about the textile business as an apprentice in a large British owned textile firm. This relation begun in the year 1900 was short lived, as the young Bahman refused, in the course of business to tell any untruth, and when this had been demanded of him, he protested and resigned. He then joined his father's textile business just four weeks before the latter's sudden death. BPW's father, Pestonji, was highly respected among textile merchants in Bombay. His premature death ( Bahman was only 19 years old ) placed this young, seemingly inexperienced man, in charge of his father's large business. He became responsible for the maintenance of his widowed mother, younger brother and sisters. With the help of a close family friend experienced in textiles, he promptly learned to manage, and prospered in that business. He had already made the acquaintance of Mme. Blavatsky through her writings. An old family friend, J. D. Mahaluxmiwala, a member of the Bombay Theosophical Society, had introduced him as follows: Every day Bahman would travel some 8 miles to work from the family home in Parel (North Bombay) by tram, to the office in the "Fort," in South Bombay. Finding Bahman (hereafter BPW) sincerely interested in philosophy and other serious subjects, Mahaluxmiwala "gave" him a 2 volume set of Mme. H.P. Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine (and a bill for forty rupees.) BPW was then 18. Reading The Secret Doctrine, he said, was like "coming home." H.P.B. opened the doors in this life, he said, to reacquire knowledge gained in past lives. He secured an innate confirmation of his own moral sense. He resolved that as soon as he could, he would devote his life to sharing Theosophy with all whom he met. He then set to work to sell the family business and provide a good income for his mother and the rest of the family. 1904 - 1908 By 1904 BPW had made even a greater success of the textile firm he had inherited, and, then he freed himself from further business engagements. The capital so acquired was carefully invested so as to take care of all his family from then on. He joined the Bombay Lodge of the Theosophical Society in 1903, and Mr. Mahaluxmiwala initiated him into the secrets of editing, and made him sub-editor for the periodicals: The Theosophic Gleaner and Theosophy and New Thought, edited from the Bombay Lodge of the T S. On April 15th 1904 he offered his services to Col. Olcott, the President-Founder of the T.S., and they were accepted. After the death of Col. Olcott, on February 17th 1907, he renewed that offer to Mrs. Annie Besant, who succeeded Olcott in the responsibilities of the Presidency of the T S, and she accepted him. Wadia also offered to come to work at Adyar, near Madras. This was also agreed to. In 1907 BPW mentioned sailing 7 miles out into Bombay harbor to see the Elephanta caves on the island of that name. It was a well known ancient temple, said in Hindu chronology to be over 350,000 years old. It had been excavated from the igneous porphyry rock which covered the island at the time of king Rama. Thus, ages ago, a gigantic stone statue of the Trimurthi: Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva, had been carved out of the original rock of the island and around that a cavern had been chiseled so that a space of about an acre under the stone roof formed the whole monument. The Portuguese who had occupied the island Mumba-devi nearby (now Bombay) had named it Elephanta, because of the two cyclopean stone elephants that decorated the approaches to the cave. He spoke of this to several friends, saying that it was there that he had a "vision," concerning the antiquity and universal value of Theosophy. Also, he met one of the Great Initiates of the Hindu tradition. 1908 - 1919 He left Bombay on February 3rd 1908 for Adyar. There, working for the T S, Mrs. Besant the President, soon made him manager of the Theosophical Publishing House; and later, assistant editor under her, of the daily New India. At the headquarters of the Theosophical Society in Adyar he was recognized to be a powerful and constructive worker. His responsibilities widened to include being the assistant editor of The Theosophist under Mrs. Besant. Under her direction he began to work in the Home Rule Movement, and soon was renowned in the political circles of the day, and among the members and leaders of the Indian National Congress ( this had been earlier started by Mr. A. O. Hume, a retired Secretary to the Government of India, and an early Theosophist of 1880, who was also a pupil of H.P.B. and of the Mahatmas. Later, under Gandhiji, Nehru, and many others, the Indian national Congress served to win political independence for India in 1947. ) BPW knew all the great figures of India in his time, literary, philosophical and political, and was often visited by them when they came to Bombay. Among these were Dr. Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan the first President of Free India, Mrs. Sarojini Naidu, Dr. Bhagwan Das, Pundit Bhawani Shankar. When visiting Bombay, they would often stay with him as guests and friends. Valuing his integrity and the instinctive love the masses had for him, they would, from time to time urge him to return to politics, saying that a person of his worth was much needed, especially after Gandhi's murder. He gently but firmly refused, saying that aspect of his life was over, and that he was working on something far wider and deeper reaching: Theosophy, which he urged them to investigate and learn about. (1936 - 1957) Sadly, few took this advice. His early activities of a political nature, in Madras in the Indian Home Rule Movement, promoted by Mrs. Besant and George Arundale earned for all three of them an internment order from the Government of Madras. Accordingly they were deported from Madras city to Ootacamund ( a "Hill Station," some 300 miles West of Madras city ). There they were interned together from June 16th 1917 ( a kind of house arrest ). The place chosen was named "Gulmarg ("rose-field"), a cottage, built earlier by Col. Olcott on land he had bought in 1888 4 miles away from Ootacamund, in the Nilgiri (Blue Mountains) Hills. It was at an elevation of 7,000 feet and compared to the sizzling temperatures of Madras (100-115) was very cool. This internment lasted till September 7th 1917 The T.S. Presentation of Theosophy Changed: BPW, after some time spent working in Adyar had realized from his study of HPB's writings in The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, and the many articles found in early issues of The Theosophist, and Lucifer that the T S was no longer promulgating pure H.P.B. Theosophy. He discussed this with Mrs. Besant, Mr. Leadbeater, and with other co-workers at Adyar, who appreciated his fundamental devo6M3 ion to H.P.B. and the Masters' teachings. Many a discussion was held on what could be done to bring the Society out of the dominance of psychism (the 3rd Object). This object held the interest of the greater number of members. Mr. Wadia felt it was also the duty of the T S and its officers to encourage the kind of study and work which the 1st and 2nd Objects was embodied in the Original Impulse of the Movement, as defined in the doctrines promulgated by HPB and the Masters since 1875. Later, conversing with friends, BPW mentioned that he had a vision in Adyar in November 1918 of H.P.B. He said that "vision," and the earlier one in 1907 of the Master at Elephanta had inspired his whole life with the certainty of Their reality, Their existence, and the power and worth of Theosophy as a living and practical philosophy to be used in daily life. The T S, he used to say, had been founded to establish a basis from which practical and philosophical hope and help to all mankind could be extended at the juncture of this cycle, and, to restore to individuals a knowledge of practical idealism. For this reason the Unity of all Beings, the Brotherhood of Man, Karma and Reincarnation were shown to be doctrines which each one could prove to himself. Those had an extreme antiquity in the literature of the Ancients, and they formed the root basis for all religious systems once accrued creedal and dogmatic claims to uniqueness were cut away. The "Eternal Philosophy," Sanatana Dharma, was being restored. Universality, Immortality, Law and Brotherhood were to become the standards for the general membership of the T S to know, understand, and aspire to practically. But the modern membership of those days had quite forgotten those objectives. The marvels of spiritualism and psychism had distracted them. The value of the Theosophical Movement as refigured by Mrs. Besant nd other "leaders" of the T S, had caused these great ideas to be almost totally lost for students of those years. BPW and these friends of HPB looked for the methods that could be used to institute an internal reform, a return to the Original Lines. Then, if this could not be done internally, could it, or would it have to be done from outside? Many plans were formulated, reviewed and revised. These included: 1. The publishing of a magazine where writers from all countries would have entire freedom of expression and where Theosophical principles could be expounded. 2. Since HPB had stated in her article (Why the Vahan ?) that it was the duty of the T.S. to keep in touch with its members, and through this journal of a few pages it was originally done on a free basis; a magazine devoted to pure Theosophy would have to be started, where the older article writings of HPB could be reprinted for modern readers. 3. An Institute of an international cultural type should be started so that the traditions, philosophies, arts and sciences of various parts of the world, and India, could be compared and made available to the general public. 4. For youths who were away from home and studying at local colleges, an inexpensive residential hostel could be established, with discipline that followed the line of the practical ethics of Theosophical philosophy. 5. Every effort was to be made to present to the membership of existing Theosophical Societies with pure Theosophy, in the words of HPB. Study classes were to be a part of this work. 6. HPB's original writings were to be reprinted for use by students and all new-comers. To have a permanent home for this six pronged plan in India, he negotiated the purchase 4 miles out of Ootacamund in the Nilgiri mountains, of an old estate of 100 acres of eucalyptus, fruit orchards and potato fields, on the "Old Mysore Road." It had been named "Brookhampton"--and was renowned for its library, which he also bought. The property was renamed by him : "Gurumandir," (Temple of the Guru). -- T. L. Crombie, Friend of India, by E. Beswick, pp 2 - 4; Pub.: International Book House Ltd., Bombay.) "Mr. Wadia stated that as time passed and he and his friends tried to bring about some reforms in the TS in Adyar, but the minds and actions of the chief officers and members seemed to become directed more towards psychism and sensationalism. They tried to direct the mind of the leaders of the Society "back to Blavatsky, and her Theosophy, and that of the Masters." It was a continuous gentle pressure, firmly unrelaxed, that was used. In the meantime other events had matured and an alternative opened." 1919 - India's First Labor Union In the course of his political work under Mrs. Besant, BPW became acquainted in 1917 with the plight of the textile workers in the local Madras mills, as some of those who labored there came to him at the offices of New India. He investigated their working conditions and found them to be oppressive and inhumane: extremely long hours with no reasonable rest periods, low pay, and other conditions of duress. Preliminary meetings were held in the fall of 1917, and in the spring of 1918. The first Labor Union, the Madras Textile Workers' Union, was organized on April 27th 1918. Mr. Wadia was asked by the workers to be President and represent them. The building in which the Madras Labor Union is housed in Madras is known as "Wadia House;" it faces "Wadia Park." On the parapet at the top of the two storied building, over the front door, a bust of BPW is installed. On entering the front door one is greeted by a large photograph of BPW as a young man -- as he was when he was President of the Union in 1918. His desk and the stationery he used at work are still carefully preserved there, and shown to visitors with great affection and reverence. The British Parliament was aware of increasing labor unrest in India, but it was unable to understand the nature of the conditions that had brought this about. In 1919 a Commission to investigate this was formed, and it summoned Mr. Wadia, as President of the Madras Textile Workers Union, and others, to come to London, give testimony, and answer questions before that Parliamentary Commission. This Commission was to consider not only the Labor situation, but also various other matters which were to be addressed a year later and embodied in the "Montford Reform Act of 1919." BPW left India on May 8th 1919, sailing in the company of Mrs. Besant, Mr. P.K.Telang and Mr. Jamnadas Dwarkadas, who were going to visit T.S.Lodges in Europe. This trip for him was to be partly political and partly Theosophical. BPW's testimony given to the Parliamentary Commission was well received and listened to with attention. A pamphlet embodying his statements was printed and circulated. A White Paper issued officially by Parliament at that time, includes a transcript of his cross-examination and answers. BPW's visit to England and his well known capacities as a writer and speaker resulted in his being invited to visit and speak at a number of the T S branches in England and on the European Continent. At this time, Indian Government appointed him a delegate to attend the First International Labor Conference under the League of Nations to be held at Washington D.C., during November-December 1919. After finishing his tour of the European Lodges he sailed in autumn for New York. His position was as a technical advisor to the India Delegation. Having discharged his responsibilities in Washington, he was asked to tour American and Canadian Branches of the T S, lecturing on The Secret Doctrine, on H.P.Blavatsky and her message, and on the need for every FTS, as an individual, to acquire for himself knowledge, and then study and apply Theosophy individually. When in Washington D.C. he met Eugene Debbs to with him, he visited the tomb of Abraham Lincoln, one of his heroes, and laid a formal wreath upon it. His itinerary included a trip to California. In Los Angeles he stayed at the Krotona T S in Hollywood. The T S in America was then undergoing some difficulties in connection with the establishing of Krotona as a headquarters instead of Chicago, and there was a change of Presidents. Mr. Wadia recommended a "Back to Blavatsky" effort, stating that in his opinion the T.S. was no longer following the lines laid down by H.P.B. and was in danger of failing in its mission. He interested himself in the views of a "Towards Democracy League" that had been formed in the T S to restore democracy in its governing. Mr. Rogers, the president of the T S Section in America was disturbed by his support of this movement in the T S and sent a cable of protest to Mrs. Besant on May 21st 1920. At that time Mr. & Mrs. Bailey, who occupied positions of trust ( as respectively, National Secretary, and Editor for the American Section's magazine: American Theosophist ) were arbitrarily removed from office by Mr. Rogers, on the grounds that they were out of harmony with his administration. On July 12th at the National Convention of the American Section T S other changes in the administration were made arbitrarily. Mr. Wadia was thanked for his work on the platform, but the protest against his attitude, demanding freedom from coercion for the members, was endorsed by the Convention pressured by Mr. Rogers, and sent to Mrs. Besant in Adyar where she was the International President for the T S. While in Los Angeles, visiting Krotona, he came upon a Times news paper advertisement of lectures on Theosophical subjects that were sponsored by The United Lodge of Theosophists. Continued in Part 2 of 7 ======================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:49:00 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 3 of 7 WAD-A3(wad-f3) Continued from Part 2 of 7: He further spoke of his finding that W.Q.Judge had been wronged in the period of 1894-96 by those in the T.S. who had attacked him on flimsy and insufficient evidence. The 18 page pamphlet he issued stated :-- TO ALL MY FELLOW THEOSOPHISTS AND MEMBERS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY A statement by B. P. Wadia This included: His letter of July 18th 1922 to Mrs. Annie Besant as President of the TS, and the General Council. A letter of explanation about the divergence from HPB's Theosophy and the Original Program by the TS; how he had found the ULT which was dedicated to that. His letter of resignation dated 18th July 1922 addressed to the General Secretary of the Indian Section TS resigning from the Indian Council and the T S. After his resignation he returned to Los Angeles. As an associate of the ULT, he worked thereafter for Theosophy in company with that body of students dedicated to the promulgation of original Theosophy as it was to be found in the writings of H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. Oct. 1st 1922 In response, the T S, Adyar, issued : "An Open Letter to Mr. Wadia" by J. Nityananda and J. Krishnamurthi. This was reprinted by Krotona, Hollywood in America, Oct. 1st 1922 and circulated to the American T S membership. 1923-28 Many members of the T S all over the world who were interested in HPB's Theosophy as she taught it, separated themselves from the T S and became associates of the ULT. This influx of new associates necessitated the formation of a number of new ULT Lodges in the Eastern seaboard of America: New York; Philadelphia, Pa.; Washington, D.C.; also several Study Groups were formed in other towns : Reading, Pa.; Chicago, Ill., some of these later became Lodges. A period of intensive education into the principles and fundamentals of Theosophy ensued. The impersonal practical work of teaching and spreading pure Theosophy, using the ULT methods, began for these new lodges and new associates. Mr. Wadia and other older students of the Los Angles Lodge threw themselves in to this work, and spent long months in various new centers that had been formed, so the work flourished. But the need for Lodges, so associates could meet for mutual study and work went beyond America and soon Lodges were formed in London, England (1925); Paris, France (1928); Amsterdam and The Hague, Holland; Antwerp, Belgium, and elsewhere. Writing about the period from 1925 to 1928, we have these notes written by one of his co-workers: - "Those who have known him in those early days felt the power and thrust of his will to work for the Great Lodge through the ULT. As it was essential to make a clean break with "Adyar Theosophy," he adopted an almost rigid attitude of exclusion to their works and writings. He advised students to concentrate on what Theosophy was, in terms of the actual wording used by HPB, WQJ and the Masters. He used to say that we ought to devote all our energies to that, the rest was unessential and was of interest to "just the present incarnation" and as such it would be "lost" when this personality "died." The other, Theosophy, was for "all time." And, that was where we ought to be placing our efforts. His work was to consolidate those old students of Judge and of the TS who desired to get back to the study of original Theosophy, and meld them with the new students who desired to learn, and had no background in Theosophy. A series of intensive study classes was started. Exercise and criticism for those who wanted to learn to do platform-work was instituted. He prepared and used for the Guidance of ULT Platform Workers a number of points they had to apply if they wish to work in that way for ULT." In New York, the U.L.T. used a large auditorium on the ground floor of the "Hotel des Artistes," at 1 West 67th ST., just off the Central Park, and near Columbia University campus. Meetings were held on Sunday: Theosophy School before noon, and a public lecture in the evening. Wednesday evening Study Class, Question and Answer Meeting; Friday: Ocean of Theosophy Study Class and then a Practice Class for new students and those who desired to do platform work. Other meetings were held during the week. Mr. Wadia conducted one of the Theosophy School Classes. Transcripts of 5 years of his work in this class exist. Students would meet in the evening, informally, several times a week at individual homes, to discuss Theosophy and various aspects of the work. This developed a large-hearted camaraderie and was an active manifestation of an active brotherhood which gathered in all ULT associates. Mr. Wadia, working at the New York Lodge had an office in the building and a large volume of correspondence was handled. Students from England came over to the New York Lodge to familiarize themselves with the program ULT had evolved of methods of work. ULT associates from Europe: France, Belgium, Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, etc., visited New York for the same reason, so methods of study and of promulgation of Theosophy were learned that could be used in their own ULT Lodges being soon were opened in England, France, Holland and Belgium. It was a whirlwind time when everything seemed to be happening at once, and the great influence to learn and promulgate spread over all those who served as the "seeds" around which future ULT Lodges and ULT work for the future would grow and flourish. The photographic plates needed to reprint The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, and A Key to Theosophy, were prepared and in this way the original writings in their pristine form were again made available for students. This was one of the most important things done. HPB's major works could be again studied in unedited original. Mr. Wadia always held that it was dangerous to approach the study of The Secret Doctrine through the use of an "abridgment." Any such "filter," however impersonal and good, inevitably set up some "barriers" between HPB and the student. He also held that Isis Unveiled ought to be first studied and read. Its contents formed the most valuable introduction to Theosophy and to The Secret Doctrine. The Secret Doctrine then, ought to be approached slowly and following a steadily held determination, it ought to be read slowly, and time should be taken to comprehend what was read. It ought to be read a few pages a day, notes should be taken of the subjects covered, and gradually one should build up one's own reference books on the subjects covered in various places. Some held that HPB had "flitted" from subject to subject, apparently at random, but a careful study showed that there always was a cogent reason for those abrupt changes of subject. This reason ought to be looked for. The enthusiasm, intensity of study, of learning and practicing Theosophy, inspired by Mr. Wadia in the period between 1922 and 1928, seems to parallel the period when Mr. Judge worked between 1886-1896 in New York as a center and influenced Theosophical growth in the rest of America. Margaret Thomas, for instance was inspired to prepare and publish Theosophy or Neo-Theosophy so students could compare the differences made in presenting Theosophy by Mrs. Besant and Mr. Leadbeater, writers for the T S, after the death of HPB, and Mme. Blavatsky's original writings. Many articles for Theosophy magazine were written by BPW, and he used to say that several writers for that magazine were like brothers, one could write the first part of an article and the other finish it and no discernible change in style or handling. Or they would share the burden of writing a series of articles, each writing alternately. Certainly he had a unique rapport with those ULTers in Los Angeles who bore the responsibilities that Mr. Crosbie had passed on to them. It is there and in consultation with those students, that the plans were laid to return HPB Theosophy to Europe and India, to open a ULT Lodge in London, Paris and later in Bombay were worked out. Thus it was hoped the three areas (America, India and Europe) where HPB had laid foundations would be revived and original Theosophy would be again made available there. New York work followed that which had proved successful in Los Angeles: lectures, the answering of all questions, study classes, a library was started, and the lending of the more expensive books to students was provided for. The conduct of Theosophy School was at first a training ground for those who would be teachers, and weekly reviews were made of the work done by all teachers, co-teachers and reporters in turn. A meticulous and constant attention to all details of the work was supervised and carried out by him, so that within the brief space of 4 years a cadre of capable and knowledgeable volunteer students arose. Other Lodges were started on the East Coast of the US: Washington, Philadelphia, Reading, and several Study Classes were all attended to; they adopted and used the same pattern of intensive study and application, and attracted the attention of individuals who were interested in Theosophy to the focus of purposive, constructive work. Periodically Mr. Wadia used to take trips, visiting Lodges on the East coast and then swing back to the Los Angeles area, visiting San Diego, San Francisco and Lodges clustered in between those cities. Visiting senior students from Los Angeles would then come to the East Coast and work with the several Lodges there. There was a constant give and take that cemented the brotherhood in the common work. When Mr. Wadia mentioned his intention to take HPB's original teachings, using the ULT work and method to India and establish ULT in Bombay as such a basis, several students became enthusiastic about this. Preparations were made each on their own, but in collaboration with others to sail for Bombay, so as to reach India towards the end of l928. There, they planned to spend the next few months locating a suitable place to hold meetings, and also make residential arrangements for themselves and another group of student workers that was to follow, coming with Mr. Wadia early in 1929. Along with BPW, several New York students intended to come. Later on, Mr. T. L. Crombie of London planned to help in the editing when the magazines were to be started. In the establishment of the ULT in Bombay and the individual conduct of those students from America and Europe who offered their help, Mr. Wadia laid stress on the need for the most correct of personal demeanors by those who would support and work closely with him in there, as local customs were quite different from those prevailing in the countries of their birth. He made it clear that there would have to be a molding of the private life of the visitors to fit and agree with the cultural customs of the Indians, rather than with those of the "ruling British" and other "whites," including Americans, who, in business or as missionaries, when living in India had adopted an aloof attitude of life from the Indians, an attitude borrowed from the British rulers of that conquered country. 1925 London saw the inauguration of the ULT Lodge there on November 17th, 1925. A group of seven of BPW's friends from his Adyar days had resolved on this and established study classes, a library, and a regular monthly schedule of meetings. The Bulletin of the London ULT began publication in 1930. In London Mr. Trevor Barker, an old acquaintance of BPW, had already published The Mahatma Letters to A.P.Sinnett. In regard earlier to publishing this, Mr. Barker had written Mr. Wadia and told him of his intention of printing those letters. Mr. Wadia replied that he did not think it was advisable to do that. Mr. Barker disregarded this advice and went ahead and had them published. Later when he met Mr. Wadia in London, he is said to have again asked: "Did I do right in publishing them ?" To this BPW answered: "You should not have published them, but I am glad that you did it." At that time he was engaged in a fresh project, the editing of H.P.Blavatsky's Letters to A.P.Sinnett. 1928 A group of students active in France and in Paris wanted to take advantage of Mr. Wadia's visit to establish their own ULT in Paris. Their Lodge was founded and the first meeting held on September 21st 1928. Since 1925, under the inspiration of Mr. Wadia, two members of the T S in France who had left it, feeling dissatisfied, and they had started a monthly magazine named Theosophie. The duties of editing the monthly, and later on, translations into French of Theosophical books was done. HPB and WQJ's writings were published. Prior to the end of 1928, together with Mr. T. L. Crombie Mr. & Mrs. Wadia visited the Netherlands in October, staying at the home of Mr. T. F. Vreede near The Hague. He had been instrumental in bringing back pure Theosophy as presented by the ULT in that town and in Amsterdam. BPW gave a number of talks and conducted study classes. 1929 Between January and the end of April 1929, Mr. Wadia lectured for the London ULT at the Victoria Hall, Bloomsbury, to packed audiences (300 +). The London Lodge was then housed in rented premises in a building a couple of blocks from Marble Arch. [ During the 2nd World War, that building was bombed, a large number of books were destroyed, and while temporary repairs enabled meetings to be continued, it was apparent that the London Lodge would have to seek for new premises. When a building was purchased at 62 Queen's Gardens, near Paddington Station, the Lodge made its move.] The London Branch of the Aryan Path magazine (begun in 1930) worked out of the building; and in the floor devoted to the Library, meetings were held for the London Branch of Indian Institute of World Culture (started in 1945 in Bangalore, India by Mr. Wadia). In March 1929, Mr. and Mrs. Wadia were in London. They were visited by many students from Europe. They, in turn, visited a number of the ULT Lodges there before beginning their trip to India. A ULT Study Group was started in Amsterdam under the inspiration received by some of its residents from their visits and talks with him. The Antwerp Lodge was inaugurated on November 17th 1956. Lodges were also started in Amsterdam and The Hague. INDIA Bringing original and pure Theosophy back to India, was next. Those students who had gone ahead, had established themselves there, and had found a suitable hall for meetings in the "Fort" the business district of south Bombay, at 51 Esplanade Rd., Flora Fountain. They had located a suitable residential complex at 17 Bomanji Petit Rd. in Malabar Hill, 4 miles away, where apartments were available for all those who were coming. The Wadias had a small detached bungalow in the same compound. Mr. and Mrs. Wadia landed in Bombay on May 31st, 1929 just before the monsoon rains of that season arrived. The Bombay branch of the ULT was opened on November 17th 1929. The inaugural meeting found the ULT hall full and overflowing. Mr. Wadia was well known and soon Sophia Wadia, an excellent speaker was also appreciated. Speaking engagements asked for by various social and communal groups poured in, asking them to lecture on Theosophy or on some aspect or other of the ancient tenets of that faith. As the reputation of the ULT grew, so did the regular membership, and Study Classes, Question and Answer Meetings, a Theosophy School for children on Saturday afternoon kept everyone busy most of the week. The Library was kept open for the public every day except Sunday from 10.00 a.m. to 5.30 p.m. 1930 - The Aryan Path January 1930 saw the first issue of The Aryan Path (the noble path) magazine, supported by articles and editorials, by Mr. Wadia and Mr. T.L.Crombie, who acted as sub-editor. Mme. Wadia allowed her name to used as "Editor." Mr. Wadia was of the opinion that the future of Theosophy in its presentation to the world would be, in one way, through the work of the future writers and poets of the world. Accordingly he and Sophia Wadia had earlier became members of the International P.E.N. Club. They organized its Indian chapter and maintained offices for it, a monthly magazine called The Indian P.E.N. was started. 1930 -- The Theosophical Movement Magazine November 17th 1930 saw the issuing of the first number of The Theosophical Movement. All articles were unsigned therein, except those that had been written by H.P.B., W.Q.J. or others who had made signed contributions in the older Theosophical magazines. A publishing program was started in Bombay, to reprint articles and the shorter texts written by HPB and WQJ. These were issued in both book and pamphlet form. 1934 A large, house was purchased for the Wadias and several other active families of associates to live in. It was located at the foot of Malabar Hill, on the shore of the Arabian Sea facing the West. Some 20 ULTers lived in "Aryasangha" for 25 years in great harmony and friendliness. The Wadias occupied the upper floor of the main building, and whenever some visitor came, or some event of theosophical significance presented itself, associates from all over the area were always invited to come. Many important persons, prominent in the Movement, were thus met, and important events occurred in which Mr. Wadia arranged that we could participate. 1938 In 1938 a sister Lodge of the Bombay ULT was opened in Matunga, about 11 miles to the north of the original Bombay ULT. The reason for this was that a number of students living there desired a permanent Study Class and meeting hall. Mr. Wadia gave the inaugural talk there. Two weekly meetings and a public library were maintained there. After the death of Mr. Crombie, the original co-editor of The Aryan Path, Dr. Eleanor M. Hough and others assisted Mr. Wadia in his editing task for this magazine. Mme. Wadia continued to lend her name to it as its "Editor" until it ceased publication, soon after Mr. Wadia's death. [See T. L. Crombie - Friend of India by Ethel Beswick, published, Bombay, Nov. 1958.] 1941 In 1941 equipment was bought to set up a printing press for the Bombay U.L.T. One of the students, an experienced printer, who lived in Baroda, some 260 miles North of Bombay, offered to equip the "Sadhana (responsibility) Press," so that the three magazines and other theosophical books could be printed reliably and without strain. Continued in Part 4 of 7 = = = From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:39:59 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Green and Hejka-Ekins Jerry is a long time theosophist (by his own admission) and he is a second example concerning the issue of control being used by Wheaton. The more years you are actively involved in the inner and outer workings of the T.S., the more you become familiar with the need for "control" in our organization. Our organization needs to be held in tight control because there are heavily invested funds and hours upon hours of people's time. The officers ALL seem to feel that part of their responsibility is to keep the organization within written bounds of action. If there is influence that dares to exist outside of those written bounds, then we change the writings (the bylaws) in order to attempt to incorporate ALL activity. Likewise, Jerry feels a need to control any realm of historical research because most of the members are not strictly historical, but like to dabble in it. Well, in David he sees a potential ally and so is very warm and extensive in his interchange. What appears to be him "put off" is in reality a reaching out to embrace! Well, Jerry, we want to embrace David, too. We, novices, want to keep him with our group, but alas, he is destined to be made professionally a PhD and so is more appropriately fitted to the heavy researchers. Too bad! David, we like you, too. Jerry can't scare us, because he knows not to even bother. It's a waste of time really because we'll never amount to anything beneficial to historians. However, there is something positive to be said about everyone, and while some theosophists are only here for a year or two and therefore are rather fly-by-night theosophists, and some of us prefer to study without special interests (like PhD's develop), we can all still contribute in worthwhile manners. Control is a very important issue to me as well as to the two examples we have here on our discussion list. You probably can't tell because it isn't written down somewhere and it isn't shouted out. Those New Acropolis theosophists could have become humble and even "liked" their parent organization for enacting new rules in their honor. Why be insulted and feel mistreated? Those members were taken to special task in their membership (which was developing "special") and so to be equated and likened to the other members needed to accomplish additional measures of their allegiance. I think it is fascinating. What would you people choose to do if you could put yourself in the place of Mr. and Mrs. Livraga? They certainly were attracting members and so in my mind were accomplishing great things. I would love to be like them in that sense. It is no easy task to attract new members and that just makes me oooh and aaah. I'm also very glad to see people responsive to the issue of control. How do others of us intend to give "control" the emphasis it deserves. Certainly we cannot let the control of our funds and hours fall into hands that are inexperienced and unconcerned for those silent, long-time members who deserve to be 1) known, 2) encouraged, 3) respected 4) loved 5) listened to, and perhaps through our years we could even carry more weight (unwrittenly) than those who are new and just beginning with the material we have open to our study. Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:27:42 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge David Green wrote: > JHE------- > No time now to > respond to posting. > But will answer part of > 1. Ms Eklund maybe private > person but she's posted > on this public forum. She > answered months ago to queries > on Judge Case. I couldn't > find her email so I asked for it > on same forum. Her email add. > was no secret to subscribers. > I didn't have it so I asked. > Is that improper? > Don't ask me. Ask Ms. Eklund. > Since posting Neresheimer----Judge > letters, some readers have > emailed thanking me for posting what > they knew nothing about. What's > negative with that? > The issue isn't posting new (to readers) documents. The issue is responsible writing. > In regards to context, what > earthshattering context info would > change major points of > letters? I'll go over this soon. > Depends on the document, but typical important factors are: the date the document was written; the place the document was written; whether the document was written by the signer or by a secretary; to whom the document was sent ect. etc. etc. jhe From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:22:39 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Privacy of Personal Information In this day and age of computers and Internet, any time anyone posts a msg on a maillist like this or newsgroup, they cannot keep their e-mail address private. In addition anyone who has a telephone listed listing anywhere in the country can be remotely searched and the telephone number and address located. It is just like picking up the phone book and looking it up. The search now can give you all this and also a map to the address. If one owns a home or personal property, then it cannot be hidden either and you get the address even if you have a unlisted telephone. Recently I found out that in the public records of real estate listings, in addition you can retrieve a floor plan of you home floor by floor. If anyone is active in newsgroups one can look up all the messages one has posted and we can get a profile of the person. Some time ago a friend of mine had posted a queer msg on a local newsgroup and when I queried him tangentially, he was in a state of shock. In addition for a small fee on can use a commercial service which will get all kinds of further information. So no one should be surprised if they find that information they consider is private is no longer private due to the public availability of a lot of information. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:37:36 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:WQ Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the discarnate Judge David: I recall seeing Dara posting a msg here. Once a msg is posted, your e-mail address is no longer private. Of course anyone can refuse to answer any mail. That's is their prerogative. No one should find fault with anyone who sends an inquiry to anyone. As for Gomes, I do not know the facts. If the person who forwarded you the address got the address from a non private source or was given to him/her without specific restriction, I see no problem at all. Most well known Theosophists I know of, *usually* respond to correspondence (the number of people interested in Theosophy is miniscule); they usually carry a very heavy load of correspondence; some do even take the time to respond when they are travelling abroad. Several years ago John Algeo once replied to me from Australia where he was then travelling. If Gomes got upset, then it is his problem and definitely not yours. You have a right to contact anyone and I urge you to go ahead and contact anyone and everyone you think might be able to help you in your research. It is the persistence and tenacity that is key getting anything done. I wish you well in your research. You are most welcome here and at least some of us are very interested in what you find and what your conclusions are. That is what makes the maillist interesting. MKR At 04:19 PM 2/23/98 PST, you wrote: >JHE------- >No time now to >respond to posting. >But will answer part of >1. Ms Eklund maybe private >person but she's posted >on this public forum. She >answered months ago to queries >on Judge Case. I couldn't >find her email so I asked for it >on same forum. Her email add. >was no secret to subscribers. >I didn't have it so I asked. >Is that improper? > >Since posting Neresheimer----Judge >letters, some readers have >emailed thanking me for posting what >they knew nothing about. What's >negative with that? > >In regards to context, what >earthshattering context info would >change major points of >letters? I'll go over this soon. > >D Green > >>Dear David, >> >>I'm sorry that you feel that I have insulted you, or have been >>condescending. This has not been my intention. However, I must admit >that >>my failure to communicate with you has been frustrating to me and >hurtful to >>others. Instead of asking me what is the problem, and accusing me of >>insulting you, perhaps you ought to take an honest look your behaviors >that >>I have specifically expressed concern and attempted to get you to >change: >> >>1. You have been soliciting the addresses of private individuals who >may not >>want to be contacted. Case in point: I specifically told you that Mr. >Goes >>is a private individual and does not want his address given out, let >alone >>have it broadcasted over the internet. I told you that if you want to >>contact him, I would forward a message for you. That way it would be >up to >>Mr. Gomes to decide if he wants to answer your letter. You ignored my >>suggestion and found someone who was willing to break Mr. Gomes trust >and >>send you his address. Worse yet, in trying to help you, this person >>published the address on theos-talk for everyone to see. Several >people >>were hurt as a result of your careless behavior, including Mr. Gomes. >>Apparently you learned nothing from that incident because you more >recently >>publicly solicited Ms. Eklund's email address. Did it ever occur to >you >>that she may also be a private individual? >> >>2. You have on several occasions solicited students on this discussion >group >>to send you Judge documents under the pretext that you are thinking of >doing >>a thesis on the subject. I applaud your four or five months study of >>Judge's writings, and encourage you to keep going. But evidently it >hasn't >>occurred to you that the serious students you have been soliciting have >>sacrificed many years in the collecting and studying these documents. >>Through many decades (not months) of hard researching and pondering, >these >>students have achieved their own understanding of these materials. But >you >>post documents to a public site, materials generously given to you that >you >>have not taken the time to understand yourself. What is your point of >doing >>this? IMO, this is a very distasteful and an inappropriate use of >those >>documents. Further, it is not by any stretch of the imagination the >>behavior of someone who is doing serious research. >> >>3. Your above actions leave me to guess that your behavior is >essentially >>motivated by the expectation that others are to do your research for >you. >>Do you tell your Professors to give you all the documents they have on >a >>subject when they ask you to research it? Of course not. They will >tell >>you to do your own research and find your own documents, because it is >in >>the research and writing processes that you really begin to learn about >the >>subject. Case in point: someone generously sent you a document from >the >>O.E. Library Critic. Your post lacked any surrounding information >>concerning the document. In fact, you knew so little about the >document and >>the publication that you had to ask the meaning of the initials "O.E." >>What is your point of publishing documents you know nothing about, >unless it >>is with the expectation that others will explain them to you. i.e. to >do >>your research for you. >> >>4. Regarding my "new accusation" that you are trying to manipulate me >into a >>debate with someone unknown to me: since you evidently don't understand >what >>I'm saying, I will spell it out again. Friday, you posted on >theos-talk a >>portion of a private letter written to you suggesting that I don't know >what >>I'm talking about. What am I to make of your making public a private >>letter sent to you that criticizes me? My only two guesses are that >you >>either posted it to passive aggressively lash out at me for for calling >you >>on your shit, or because you want to manipulate me into a debate with >this >>person. I told you that I will not be suckered into your games. They >are >>not constructive. They are not friendly, and I assure you that in the >long >>run, you will not benefit from them. >> >>Regarding my library and archives--yes we have some 15,000 volumes of >rare >>theosophical books and journals here and another 50,000 pages of >unpublished >>documents, most of which are not available anywhere else. I have >announced >>the existence of this resource on the various Theosophical discussion >groups >>and advertised its existence in Theosophical History. I have also made >it >>known that the materials and books are available to any student who >wishes >>to see them. As a matter of fact, we receive several researchers a >year >>from all over the world who make use of this material. Some of them >are >>working on their Ph.D. Thesis. One frequent visitor is a university >>professor who is engaged in writing a book. I am yet to deny access to >this >>material to anyone who has inquired. The rules for using this material >are >>exactly the same as the rules that you would follow if you were to >visit any >>University special collection. This collection exists because I >personally >>collected, housed and preserved this material, at a tremendous personal >>cost in time (thirty-five years) and money (many tens of thousands of >>dollars). Over the years, I have made this material freely available >to ALL >>students whether they share my beliefs or not. Further, my wife and I >have >>been in the process of taking legal steps to make this collection a >public >>trust so that it will continue to be preserved and be available to >students >>after our deaths. This is being done at the cost of our entire >personal >>estate. Considering the above, I suggest that your accusation that I >have >>not been generous to you or to others might be a bit misguided.. >> >>I hope this clarifies and brings an end to this conversation. >> >>JHE >> >> >> >> >>David Green wrote: >> >>> JHE, >>> What is problem? Since last >>> fall I've been reading & studying W >>> Judge. I've purchased books, recd >>> material thru inter-library sharing, >>> & yes, I've asked for help >>> in locating material >>> on this forum. Persons senting >>> public & private messages to me >>> have been helpful. Some extremely >>> generous. But you are exception. >>> You dislike my questions >>> & accuse me of wanting >>> you to do my research. Now you >>> give new accusation. If you >>> dont want to share info then >>> DONT SHARE. But why do you write >>> what appears to me as insulting & >>> condescending comments. >>> Several theosophists have copied >>> rare books on W Judge for me. >>> No charge. They >>> didn't lecture me but helped. >>> One man emailed me you have library & >>> archives of Judge material. I >>> wonder how open & accessible your >>> material is when you can write such >>> unfriendly postings? >>> >>> I close unpleasant subject.I thank >>> everyone who's given info & >>> material & I'll continue to >>> post documents as I find & rec. them. >>> I also plan to create web site >>> when I learn HTML. Any recommendations >>> on good web site provider? >>> >>> D Green >>> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:07:08 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Eclipse on Thursday It's interesting to note that there's an eclipse of the Sun this Thursday. It will be at 7PIS55. The exact time will be at 9:28 AM PST, 17:28 GMT. During the eclipse, NASA will have a live webcast of the eclipse, running from 9 to 11 AM PST, 17:00 to 19:00 GMT. The webcast can be viewed at: http://www.sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:30:03 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:a suggestion Sorry Brenda, this is how it hit me. If I am off mark, please excuse me. Dal >From: "Brenda S Tucker" >Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 11:12 AM >Subject: Re:a suggestion >Dallas, > >I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about! Why me? Did my >suggestion have to do with trust? What did I write that elicited this from >you? > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:51:08 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:"borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" Dear Jerry Tibetan "Pho-wa" sounds like the use of "sorcery." A misuse of the power to animate a corpse by an individual who has developed tha power -- as in classical theosophical literature it is explained at length in Isis, Key, and Ocean. The harmless and correct use of that faculty is also described there, and is now generally referred to as "Tul-ku" of a special kind and not necessarily a "reincarnation" of the same Ego into a new, and young body. In another posting today I go into the source of a "borrowed body," can you access the ULT edition of LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME ? p. 257 et seq explains. Dal >From: "Jerry Schueler" >Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 5:45 PM >Subject: Re:"borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" >>It's my understanding of the ageless wisdom, however, that the physical >body >>is the result of the past karma of the occupant. This would include the >body's >>condition, health, longevity, etc. I don't see how that Karma could be >worked >>out or even abrogated by another entity. The law of karmic responsibilities >>and evolutionary advancement through self-devised efforts is very specific >in >>the classical writings of theosophy. >> >>My two cents. >>Lmhemm111 >> > >If you really think as you say above, then how can you explain >the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Pho-Wa in which an adept >can take over the body (usually a corpse) of another person? >The pho-wa techniques have been around since Evans-Wentz, >(a Theosophist and early writer on Tibetan Yoga) and virtually >all Tibetan writers have acknowledged its effectiveness, >albeit they concede it to be rarely done. I see no reason why >pho-wa can't be explained theosophically. > >Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:39:21 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:"borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" Dallas writes: The case of the "borrowed body" and of Mr. W.Q.Judge ought to be considered in context with the narration given in LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME, p. 257 et seq ULT edition. As to the cases [ and everything without exception, as I understand it, is under Karma ] of "walk ins" -- is not every case of "trance communication" or "channeling" the permitting of some other entity to use and influence the living body while it is kept {temporarily I hope} out of direct and full control of the real Ego which generated it ? The annals of Theosophical writings cites many instances of this kind of event. A thorough knowledge of the 7 principles of man and their relationship as set out in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY can answer the points you raise -- that is, in my esteem. It is a highly unusual situation and ought to be considered if we are now asking whether the term "Rajah" related to Mr. Judge and was used only by his intimate friends -- that is as I see it, and the information I offered was for that purpose. Dallas >From: "Marshall Hemingway III" >Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 12:30 PM >Subject: "borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" ><< Unquestionably that Ego (the triple Monad: > Atma-Buddhi-Manas) is the immortal and the common base for such a > remarkable event as using a "borrowed body." >> > ><experiences in a "borrowed body." Of this strange event he spoke to several >friends >> > >I have trouble with the "borrowed body" concept. It smacks of that New Agey >flap some years ago about "walk-ins", the idea that a higher being can come in >and take over the body already inhabited by some soul. A "walk-in" is >presumably invited to complete a life in progress by an Aego who wants out or, >is perhaps fed up with life itself. This idea was made popular in the late >Seventies by Ruth Montgomery, a well-known writer on New Age themes. For some >time now, the walk-in notion has been expropriated by UFO groups where claims >have been made about extraterrestrial "take-overs" of bodies of selected human >beings. This usually tickles the ego of the person imagining that he/she is >now some lofty being from God knows where. > >A well-known example of the "borrowed body" idea is that of a British plumber >from Plympton who claimed to have been taken over by an entity called T. >Lobsang Rampa. This famous literary scandal produced a series of popular, and >some say well-researched books, which made the author quite wealthy.. > >It's my understanding of the ageless wisdom, however, that the physical body >is the result of the past karma of the occupant. This would include the body's >condition, health, longevity, etc. I don't see how that Karma could be worked >out or even abrogated by another entity. The law of karmic responsibilities >and evolutionary advancement through self-devised efforts is very specific in >the classical writings of theosophy. > >My two cents. >Lmhemm111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:33:04 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:Privacy of Personal Information Doss, you are absolutely right. In this day of age anyone can get anyone's e-mail address, residence, phone number, and there are computers designed to do nothing but store private information about people. However, the issue I have unsuccessfully been trying to raise is not one of ability, but of *courtesy.* Just because one is able to find an e-mail address is one thing. Taking into consideration how to approach the person behind that address with courtesy and respect, or whether this person ought to be approached at all is quite another. Since I am old enough to remember Truman in the white house, I guess most of the world must view me as an antiquated irrelevant old man with a lot of strange ideas that don't fit in this world--concepts like appropriate behavior, courtesy and professionalism. Call me strange if you would like, but if a stranger contacts me, I still appreciate the first contact to be in that old fashioned custom called "an introduction." Strangely, the people in question are also near my age and consequently grew up with the same cultural values as I did. Could it be that like me, they also might appreciate having their privacy respected? I'm not saying that these people cannot be approached, but that there used to be cultural norms about *how* a person is to be approached. I guess those days are gone. I'm sorry for that because it makes this planet that much less of a nice place. jhe M K Ramadoss wrote: > In this day and age of computers and Internet, any time anyone posts a msg > on a maillist like this or newsgroup, they cannot keep their e-mail address > private. In addition anyone who has a telephone listed listing anywhere in > the country can be remotely searched and the telephone number and address > located. It is just like picking up the phone book and looking it up. The > search now can give you all this and also a map to the address. If one owns > a home or personal property, then it cannot be hidden either and you get > the address even if you have a unlisted telephone. Recently I found out > that in the public records of real estate listings, in addition you can > retrieve a floor plan of you home floor by floor. If anyone is active in > newsgroups one can look up all the messages one has posted and we can get a > profile of the person. Some time ago a friend of mine had posted a queer > msg on a local newsgroup and when I queried him tangentially, he was in a > state of shock. In addition for a small fee on can use a commercial service > which will get all kinds of further information. So no one should be > surprised if they find that information they consider is private is no > longer private due to the public availability of a lot of information. > > mkr > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:18:18 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Privacy of Personal Information Jerry: Some fundamental things dont change with time. Even when I approach someone whom I don't know, I would try to tell them what I am doing and what I am looking for. Call it courtesy or whatever. Such an approach usually ends up with the other party being responsive. But however, in spite of this there is no response then nothing can be done. ...doss At 11:33 AM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >Doss, you are absolutely right. In this day of age anyone can get anyone's >e-mail address, residence, phone number, and there are computers designed to do >nothing but store private information about people. However, the issue I have >unsuccessfully been trying to raise is not one of ability, but of *courtesy.* >Just because one is able to find an e-mail address is one thing. Taking into >consideration how to approach the person behind that address with courtesy and >respect, or whether this person ought to be approached at all is quite >another. Since I am old enough to remember Truman in the white house, I guess >most of the world must view me as an antiquated irrelevant old man with a lot >of strange ideas that don't fit in this world--concepts like appropriate >behavior, courtesy and professionalism. Call me strange if you would like, but >if a stranger contacts me, I still appreciate the first contact to be in that >old fashioned custom called "an introduction." Strangely, the people in >question are also near my age and consequently grew up with the same cultural >values as I did. Could it be that like me, they also might appreciate having >their privacy respected? I'm not saying that these people cannot be >approached, but that there used to be cultural norms about *how* a person is to >be approached. I guess those days are gone. I'm sorry for that because it >makes this planet that much less of a nice place. > >jhe > >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> In this day and age of computers and Internet, any time anyone posts a msg >> on a maillist like this or newsgroup, they cannot keep their e-mail address >> private. In addition anyone who has a telephone listed listing anywhere in >> the country can be remotely searched and the telephone number and address >> located. It is just like picking up the phone book and looking it up. The >> search now can give you all this and also a map to the address. If one owns >> a home or personal property, then it cannot be hidden either and you get >> the address even if you have a unlisted telephone. Recently I found out >> that in the public records of real estate listings, in addition you can >> retrieve a floor plan of you home floor by floor. If anyone is active in >> newsgroups one can look up all the messages one has posted and we can get a >> profile of the person. Some time ago a friend of mine had posted a queer >> msg on a local newsgroup and when I queried him tangentially, he was in a >> state of shock. In addition for a small fee on can use a commercial service >> which will get all kinds of further information. So no one should be >> surprised if they find that information they consider is private is no >> longer private due to the public availability of a lot of information. >> >> mkr > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:33:37 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: Yes & no THE tail of a dog wags backward and forth. The finger of the old man cocks and shakes with all-knowing instruction. The head bows, the head lifts, the head shakes, backward and forth, up and down: dissent, assent; agreement. One movement is defined. Wavering movements, which are not of singular intent are equally, undecided; as the wavering shows. If one examines the habits of this explanatory shaking, they can begin to 'feel out' their partners searching, even though they appear to be decisive in interpretation. Here and there, from this and that, side to side, backwards up and frontwards down. This explains to us the true make over of most decisions answered. If we nod in agreement we are tending towards that line of decision, but not overly committed unwaveringly. Equally a nod of disapproval - 'no, no, no' - is a tendency favouring such; but going from this to that in examination. It is moreover an informed answer, for the information is causing the constant reflex. Something like this: "No, I reject"; "But, what if?","I understand", and so forth. Examination: return to first opinion, drawing conclusions, and so on. The head shaking side to side, or up and down, the inner gauging, the outer affirmation of decided opinion. There are grades of sound which accompany the verbal equivalents ranging from the most definite and exuberant, to those which are weakly and noncommittal: If I should ask you if you would like to be given a treasure, your reply 'yes' should be stated far differently to your being offered a biscuit, a dry biscuit, for example. And yet, the two words, both yes and no, are the most strongly driven words of any language. The individual who imparts either of these words may choose to do so quite forcefully, quite actively, and throw their whole being behind them and their meaning of the moment. Of course there needs be both will and desire, coupled with a true and proper reference understanding of that which is to be accepted or rejected by the individual. However, 'yes' and 'no', still stand as the most powerful issues, regardless of how quickly we tend to offer both; regardless of considerations. These two words separate man from beast, as within the use, common and decided, they are representative of choice, choice being paramount to man. They are in answer to all consideration. B.Hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:08:25 EST From: "Catherine Pickar" Subject: Re:Another Person Unsubscribes In a message dated 98-02-23 13:32:54 EST, you write: Hi Eldon! << It's something to keep in mind as we post to the list. We can be judged based upon a few days of postings. How much of what we write would be considered "noise" and subject to a quick , as compared to something worth setting aside, printing, and carefully read? How much of our writings are helpful to someone interested in and wanting to study Theosophy? There's no easy answer, and I'm not sure we could make a general rule, but perhaps 3/4 of the people that drop theos-talk still want the monthly, indicating that there's something about the mailing list that doesn't meet their needs. Maybe there's nothing we can do, perhaps it's just that the nature of mailing lists doesn't lend itself to their needs? What do others think? >> In response to the person who cited they were dropping from the list - I agree. I find this particular mailing list to time consuming for what I am able to use. Many of the messages are forwarded to others list which means duplicate time spent reading. It is difficult to cipher out the important from the unimportant. Perhaps a list like theos-l would be easier to read and handle. Some of the messages appear to be more personal and perhaps should be considered sent as personal messages. i.e. ...not on the list. I am considering dropping this list, also, I just don't have time to pick through all the messages. Could the list be broken down into categories perhaps? This may facilitate sorting of subject matter. It would permit people with special needs or focus to pinpoint them and not waste time on extraneous material. Some of the subjects are misleading and forces one to read the content before realizing it's not useful to the reader. Namaste, Catherine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:56:08 EST From: "Visanu Sirish" Subject: Re:Privacy of Personal Information In a message dated 98-02-24 04:09:58 EST, mkr writes: << any time anyone posts a msg on a maillist like this or newsgroup, they cannot keep their e-mail address private >> Quite true. Here are some of just a few Email Search Engines: Switchboard Find an Email Address http://www2.switchboard.com/bin/cgiemail.dll?MG=&MEM=1 Whowhere http://www.whowhere.com/ Yahoo! People Search http://www.yahoo.com/search/people HotButton Find Email Addresses http://www.hotbot.com/partners/email.html 411 E-Mail Addresses http://www.four11.com MetaCrawler Email Search http://in-114.infospace.com/_1_217399382__info.go2net/email1.htm All-In-One Search Page http://www.albany.net/allinone/all1user.html World Email Directory http://worldemail.com/wede4a.shtml Bigfoot Email Search http://www.bigfoot.com/ FindMeMail http://www.findmemail.com/Search.htm Email Utilities http://emailchange.com/ Excite Email Lookup http://www.excite.com/Reference/email.html Infoseek Email Search http://www.infoseek.com/Facts?pg=email.html&svx=htb_email From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:53:26 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization To prevent altering of msgs, technology is in the works to add digital signature, much like the check sum used in validating some of the compressed computer files. So in the near future this would be universally implemented in all e-mail msgs. In addition to all the points you mentioned, there is another fundamental problem that elected TSA BOD have. Some time ago, I inquired if any of them have access to Internet/e-mail and it appears that apart Olcott no one else has e-mail access or they don't want to disclose if anyone has. This seems to show none of them seem to recognize the importance of e-mail as a modern medium of communication and its potential. If they don't recognize it, one cannot expect them make use of the tool they don't understand. Let us see what is happening in the world. Some time ago when I visited a state school, I found that each room in the dorm is provided with a local area network connection and Internet access and e-mail account. The coming generation who are growing up in this environment and their use of Internet and e-mail is going to be as normal as using telephone for personal and business purposes. When we do get an International and National Leader who had grown up in this environment, they will have both personal appreciation and be able to visualize the effective use of e-mail to further the best interests of TS and Theosophy. The question is very simple. At least I don't see any "real" leader either at the International or National level. So it is going to take several decades before the present computer generation person is at the leadership. In view of the gradual slide in the membership around the world, will the TS survive that long a time? It may be too late. Even in a small business like mine we make an intensive use of e-mail and it has been found a very useful and effective tool. Why do I use it? It is very efficient and cost effective means of communication with entities I have to deal with and it my personal funds I spend and so I am always looking for improving my efficiency and increase cost effectivness. If this be the case, I sure it can do the same thing in a larger scale for larger organization. My 0.02 mkr ================================ At 09:43 AM 2/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Dear Bart, > >I see your point. One can indeed fabricate a statement that was never made in an >email exchange. However, the original (correct) message had already been posted to x >number of subscribers and is archived by the moderator. For instance, in this case, >I can always go back to Eldon (the theos-talk moderator) and ask him to repost my >original message--thus exposing your quote to be a fabrication thus damaging your >credibility instead of mine. If I were to find that Eldon is for some bizarre reason >part of your conspiracy, I can always request the readers who archive their own >copies (some do) to repost the true quote. Anything you post on email continues to >exist somewhere, even after you had erased your own copy. So even in this extreme >example, there is always a way to bring out the truth in this media. So I think the >real reason why Wheaton does not want a representative spokesperson on email is >because they will not be able to control the questions and criticisms they may >receive on this media. If they receive a question or criticism intended to be >published in the AT/Quest magazine, they have the option of: publishing it as it >is, ignoring it, or publishing it in an edited or altered form. On the Internet >they don't have the advantage of these choices. If they were to unfairly edit or >alter a question or statement for reply, the questioner is likely to call them on it, >and he/she will have the original post in the archives for proof. In other words, >Wheaton will have to deal with everyone on a level playing field if they were to >choose to enter this media through a neutral site like theos-talk. At present, all >of their media of communication (AT/Quest, Messenger, letters to members, ts-l, nl-l) >are completely under their control. Why would they want to have it any other way? > >jhe > >Bart Lidofsky wrote: > >> Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: >> >> > So to return to my original point, since the internet is an equal playing >> > field, there is no danger of a Wheaton representative's contributions being >> > twisted (as you suggested) because they will always have a recourse. >> >> Except that John Mead does not let his feelings blind him to the facts. Let's >> say that I quoted: >> >> Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: >> > and just last week, I despoiled a young goat >> >> How do you prove that you never said such a thing, or if someone uses the >> above, how do you prove that it was designed as an absurd example and not a >> genuine admission? >> >> Bart Lidofsky >> >> P.S. The despoiling young goats reference comes from writer Marion Zimmer >> Bradley, who created it for a story where she wanted to create a ridiculous but >> vicious regional slur ("You're a despoiler of young goats!" "No, YOU'RE a >> despoiler of young goats!" The punch line was that the villain of the piece >> actually WAS a despoiler of young goats. I have since used it when I wanted to >> give an example of an accusation which is so ridiculous that nobody in their >> right mind would take it seriously. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:08:36 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Re:Another Person Unsubscribes Catherine: >Could the list be broken down into categories perhaps? This may facilitate >sorting of subject matter. It would permit people with special needs or focus >to pinpoint them and not waste time on extraneous material. Some of the >subjects are misleading and forces one to read the content before realizing >it's not useful to the reader. The automatic support for topics is handled by listserv mailing lists, and theos-talk uses majordomo. The reason is primarily economic, it costs thousands of dollars a year for a web provider to offer a listserv mailing list facility, so I can't convince my webservice provider to switch. Majordomo lists, though, don't cost them anything to provide, so I'm able to get theos-talk for free (no additional charge over my monthly charge for the web account). It would, as you say, be nice if someone looked over messages, labelled and rated them, then sent them on, allowing people to only get the messages of types they were interested in. And there have been a number of people dropping theos-talk because of the mixed nature of the postings, and because they have so much to wade through before seeing what they like. Because there are no controls on the postings of people, and because there will always be new people, unfamiliar with any voluntary conventions that we might come up with, there will always be postings that may be unconventional for the list, that may a bit of messages for us to wade through. The only thing that would solve the problem, potentially, would be if the list was moderated, and the moderator labelled and passed on the messages. The people on the list could, in the absence of mailing-list features to allow people to subscribe by topic, have an email filter on the subject line to discard all messages not having the labels that they wanted. This is, though, labor intensive, and there would need to be some volunteer to spend an hour a day, day-after-day, and a backup when the volunteer was unavailable or sick. Even where someone suitable appear with the time and dedication to do this, people would still be unhappy at times at the labels attached to their messages, since the labelling of messages would be a judgement call, and subject to differing interpretations. The best thing that we can do at the moment is -- as participants on the list -- to make sure our subject line is descriptive, to cut out long quotes, and to get to the point early on in our message, allowing readers the change to quickly decide to keep or it without a lot of browsing. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:14:18 EST From: "Jose R Grana" Subject: Re: unsuscribe unsuscribe From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:13:44 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization Here is a correction/typo: At 08:53 PM 2/24/98 -0600, I wrote: >>>clip<<<< >The following is the correct sentence: At least I don't see on the horizon any "real" Internet knowledgeable leader to replace the current leaders at the International or National level when their current terms expire. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:21:47 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:- Use of intelligent filters I recall reading about some intelligent filters built into mail readers which can scan incoming msgs for key words and place them in separate folders or mailboxes. Such a tool can automate some of the tasks of sorting incoming msgs. For now, most of the mail readers can sort the incoming msgs based on some criteria mostly in the header fileds and place the msgs in mailboxes. I use one such program and mail from different maillists are placed in different mailboxes. Those which do not satisfy any of the prespecified criteria are place in the IN Mailbox. This way most of my personal and business msgs are placed in the IN Mailbox and I attend to them first before I review the rest of the mailboxes. mkr At 07:08 PM 2/24/98 -0800, you wrote: >Catherine: > >>Could the list be broken down into categories perhaps? This may facilitate >>sorting of subject matter. It would permit people with special needs or focus >>to pinpoint them and not waste time on extraneous material. Some of the >>subjects are misleading and forces one to read the content before realizing >>it's not useful to the reader. > >The automatic support for topics is handled by listserv mailing lists, >and theos-talk uses majordomo. The reason is primarily economic, it >costs thousands of dollars a year for a web provider to offer a >listserv mailing list facility, so I can't convince my webservice >provider to switch. Majordomo lists, though, don't cost them anything >to provide, so I'm able to get theos-talk for free (no additional >charge over my monthly charge for the web account). > >It would, as you say, be nice if someone looked over messages, labelled >and rated them, then sent them on, allowing people to only get the >messages of types they were interested in. And there have been a >number of people dropping theos-talk because of the mixed nature of >the postings, and because they have so much to wade through before >seeing what they like. > >Because there are no controls on the postings of people, and because >there will always be new people, unfamiliar with any voluntary >conventions that we might come up with, there will always be >postings that may be unconventional for the list, that may a bit >of messages for us to wade through. The only thing that would solve >the problem, potentially, would be if the list was moderated, and >the moderator labelled and passed on the messages. The people on the >list could, in the absence of mailing-list features to allow people >to subscribe by topic, have an email filter on the subject line to >discard all messages not having the labels that they wanted. This >is, though, labor intensive, and there would need to be some volunteer >to spend an hour a day, day-after-day, and a backup when the volunteer >was unavailable or sick. Even where someone suitable appear with the >time and dedication to do this, people would still be unhappy at times >at the labels attached to their messages, since the labelling of >messages would be a judgement call, and subject to differing >interpretations. > >The best thing that we can do at the moment is -- as participants >on the list -- to make sure our subject line is descriptive, to >cut out long quotes, and to get to the point early on in our >message, allowing readers the change to quickly decide to keep or > it without a lot of browsing. > >-- Eldon > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:09:41 PST From: "David Green" Subject: U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge "Theosophical Movement"-----1951 title for sale by United Lodge of Theosophists-----offers [below] commentary on purported messages W Judge received from dead Mrs Blavatsky. "In 1932, several years after the death of Mrs. Tingley, some of the 'notes' or pages from the 'occult diary' [of W Judge] came to light in the pages of the 'O.E. Libary Critic.' Dr. H.N. Stokes, editor of the 'Critic,' then expressed his own opinion that the 'notes' were in Judge's handwriting, but left the reader to conclude that this identifi- cation proves, not that Mrs. Tingley was properly chosen as Judge's successor in the 'true line' of the Movement, but rather that Judge was deluded into thinking that he had received spiritualistic communications from H.P.B.! Now if Dr. Stokes suspected that Judge was a broken reed, the victim of such psychic follies, how could Mr. Ryan cite Stokes in support of the Tingley succession? Mr. Ryan, apparently, welcomed Stokes' judgment that the psychically received notes were in Judge's handwriting, but the price he paid for this vindication was the reduction of Judge to a dabbler in Spirtualism, a mere psychic dupe. Judge, whom H.P.B. called 'part of myself for aeons past,' needed a medium, a 'helper,' to get in touch with H.P.B.! What can succession to such a 'leader' be worth?............ ............. The Theosophical 'succession' of Mrs. Tingley thus becomes lost in a morass of psychic delusion, of claims and counter-claims. If the 'evidence' for it be accepted, Judge becomes a guileless psychic and virtual 'disciple' of Mrs. Tingley. If the evidence is rejected, Mrs. Tingley becomes at best a self-deluded woman, at worst a charlatan, and so, also, her close supporters." pages 286-88 Central question: Are W Judge epistles [posted during last 10 days on theos-talk forum] forgeries or authentic letters? I recd. late today copies of Dr Stokes articles on subject. I'll post more when I study articles. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:29:27 -0800 From: "Martin Leiderman" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization M K Ramadoss wrote: > When we do get an International and National Leader who had grown up in > this environment, they will have both personal appreciation and be able to > visualize the effective use of e-mail to further the best interests of TS > and Theosophy. The question is very simple. At least I don't see any "real" > leader either at the International or National level. So it is going to > take several decades before the present computer generation person is at > the leadership. In view of the gradual slide in the membership around the > world, will the TS survive that long a time? It may be too late. > My 0.02 > mkr Dear Brother Ramadoss I would like to hear from you more than your 0.02. (Like a buck or two) What are the specific things our leaders at TSA can do with email and internet? Please brainstorm all of them. We may all add to it and give Olcott some really good ideas. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:46:14 -0800 From: "Martin Leiderman" Subject: West Los Angeles Theosophical Study Group For those of you in the West Los Angeles area who may be interested in studying theosophy with others, the "West Los Angeles Theosophical Study Group" has recently been established. It's been running since November '97, meeting weekly on Thursday evenings from 7:30 to 9:30 PM. At the present time, we are studying by topic, rather than studying one particular book. We have examined such theosophical basics as the Three Fundamental Propositions of the Secret Doctrine, karma, reincarnation and cyclicity. Presently, we are discussing the paramitas (virtues), using "The Voice of The Silence" 's notation of these as a guide. The emphasis is practical, highlighting the relevance of these philosophical laws to our day-to-day living. It is held in our home in West L.A. If you are interested, please call us at (310) 479-2435. Love and warmest wishes, Susan and Martin Leiderman From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:09:00 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge Feb 25th '98 Judge letters verbatim reprints sound probably authentic, but cannot say until originals are seen -- handwriting to be verified. Evidently not written for publication, and as notes to a friend. No, I do not think that Judge DEPENDED on Mr.s t. for messages from the Masters. he had his own channel secure. and though ill, he may have used her then pure power to save himself some energy -- later she may have lost her purity -- such are the falls and rises of the "chelas" in their pursuit of occultism -- the temptations that may enter and to which anyone can succumb (witness the example of ZANONI in Bulwer-Lytton's novel) are there. So Mrs. Tingley close to Judge and during his life is not necessarily the same Mrs. Tingley after his death !!!! The only way any one can be judged by non-adepts is through their words. Are they Universal ? Are the unselfish ? Is there anything there that is at all self-serving ? If so, mistrust such a message. That's the way I would look at the matter. Dallas >From: "David Green" >Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 9:30 PM >Subject: U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge > >"Theosophical Movement"-----1951 >title for sale by United Lodge >of Theosophists-----offers [below] >commentary on purported messages >W Judge received from dead Mrs >Blavatsky. > >"In 1932, several years after >the death of Mrs. Tingley, some >of the 'notes' or pages from the >'occult diary' [of W Judge] came >to light in the pages of the >'O.E. Libary Critic.' Dr. H.N. >Stokes, editor of the 'Critic,' >then expressed his own opinion >that the 'notes' were in Judge's >handwriting, but left the reader >to conclude that this identifi- >cation proves, not that Mrs. >Tingley was properly chosen as >Judge's successor in the >'true line' of the Movement, >but rather that Judge was >deluded into thinking that >he had received spiritualistic >communications from H.P.B.! >Now if Dr. Stokes suspected >that Judge was a broken reed, >the victim of such psychic >follies, how could Mr. Ryan >cite Stokes in support of the >Tingley succession? Mr. Ryan, >apparently, welcomed Stokes' >judgment that the psychically >received notes were in Judge's >handwriting, but the price >he paid for this vindication >was the reduction of Judge to a >dabbler in Spirtualism, a >mere psychic dupe. Judge, >whom H.P.B. called 'part of >myself for aeons past,' >needed a medium, a 'helper,' >to get in touch with H.P.B.! >What can succession to such a >'leader' be worth?............ >............. >The Theosophical 'succession' >of Mrs. Tingley thus becomes >lost in a morass of psychic >delusion, of claims and >counter-claims. If the >'evidence' for it be accepted, >Judge becomes a guileless psychic >and virtual 'disciple' of Mrs. >Tingley. If the evidence is >rejected, Mrs. Tingley becomes >at best a self-deluded woman, at >worst a charlatan, and so, also, >her close supporters." pages >286-88 > >Central question: >Are W Judge epistles [posted >during last 10 days on theos-talk >forum] forgeries or authentic >letters? > >I recd. late today copies of >Dr Stokes articles on subject. >I'll post more when I >study articles. > >D Green From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:35:04 PST From: "David Green" Subject: U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge Yes, letters need authentication. Of course. Yet when JHE recounts secretaries writing letters and W Judge's signature being stamped on letters, this scenario not applying to two 1895 letters of W Judge. I've read "O E Library Critic" articles. In Novem 1932 magazine, article's title is "A letter from W.Q. Judge to Dr. A. Keightley." Besides letterhead, rest of letter "written in ink in the handwriting of William Q. Judge." Transcript of dead Mrs Blavatsky's words also in W Judge's handwriting. This certified by Iverson L Harris, Joseph H Fussell, Elsie V Savage, Margherita Siren & Helen Harris. Earlier JHE claimed W Judge was in England at time of writing letter but Dr Stokes confirms W Judge was residing in New York early Janu 1895. 2nd W Judge letter in article "A letter from W.Q. Judge to Katherine Tingely." "Critic" Octo 1932. After transcription, certification reads----- "The above is an exact copy made by me of an original letter in William Q. Judge's handwriting, written on two sides of one sheet of white paper." etc etc etc etc Signed Iverson L Harris & confirmed J H Fussell, Helena Harris, Elsie V Savage & Margherita Siren. Other version of dead Mrs Blavatsky's messages in W Judge's handwriting examined by Dr Stokes & old friends of W Judge--------- "I was furnished with photographs of most of these forgotten and now rediscovered documents. These I compared, with the assistance of old friends of Judge, with unquestionably genuine and personal letters of Judge in their possession and in the presence of a person expert in examining handwriting, and the unanimous conclusion was that the documents were actually written by Judge." "Critic" Novem----Decem 1934 Letters are stored in Point Loma archives. Where is this? Point Loma Pubs San Diego or Theos Soc Pasadena? Again I ask D Tenbroeck & JHE for correct location & email address. Let's write letters asking for verification. Since both you well known students & with own libraries, why not write to verify instead of expressing doubt & vague generalities? D Green >Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:45:01 -0800 >From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" >Subject: Re:U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge > >Thanks Dallas for this post. I was beginning to feel like a lone voice >in the wilderness. Yes, published Judge's letters do need to be >authenticated. Very commonly, these letters were written by his >secretaries with Judge's signature *stamped* on. In these very frequent >cases, we have no way of knowing if Judge even saw the letter. Judge >was often in another town, state or country--or sometimes he was present >but too ill to tend to business. Also, a thorough knowledge of the >events that were occurring at the time a letter was written is vital to >understanding it. Further, knowing whether the letter was meant to be >private, public, official, unofficial, an opinion, policy etc. are all >critical questions in evaluating these letters. In the case of this >Rajah business and Tingley's relationship to it, there is far more that >is unknown and will probably never be known than what is. I think your >view of evaluating the letters in terms of being universal and unselfish >or self serving is an excellent way of looking at them, and is the best >we can do when the other factors are missing. > >Thanks >Jerry > >Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > >> Feb 25th '98 >> >> Judge letters verbatim reprints sound probably authentic, but >> cannot say until originals are seen -- handwriting to be >> verified. Evidently not written for publication, and as notes to >> a friend. No, I do not think that Judge DEPENDED on Mr.s t. for >> messages from the Masters. he had his own channel secure. and >> though ill, he may have used her then pure power to save himself >> some energy -- later she may have lost her purity -- such are the >> falls and rises of the "chelas" in their pursuit of occultism -- >> the temptations that may enter and to which anyone can succumb >> (witness the example of ZANONI in Bulwer-Lytton's novel) are >> there. So Mrs. Tingley close to Judge and during his life is not >> necessarily the same Mrs. Tingley after his death !!!! The only >> way any one can be judged by non-adepts is through their words. >> Are they Universal ? Are the unselfish ? Is there anything >> there that is at all self-serving ? If so, mistrust such a >> message. >> >> That's the way I would look at the matter. >> Dallas >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:09:20 PST From: "Mike Perala" Subject: Re:LCC&TS and WWII ---------- > Mika Perala wrote: > > > Hello! > > > > Bart mentioned something like " LCC did to TS during WWII" (helped somehow > > I suppose) in his theos-l message. > > I would like to hear a little more about this. A short commentary would be > > appreciated, Bart? Or anybody else? > > It was actually rather simple. The Nazi's banned the Theosophical Society > (a fact that those who claim that the TS supported Hitler like to forget). > They did not, however, ban the Liberal Catholic Church. TS meetings took place > under the guise of LCC masses. > > Bart Lidofsky Thank you. What was the official explanation for the Nazi`s to ban TS? And what do you think were the reasons they did it? Mika > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:43:23 PST From: "David Green" Subject: U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge JHE wrote----------- >Regarding the Rajah, I was not >posting a document. As for giving references, I'm afraid that you did not >read my message carefully enough. I said that this subject touches on >Judge/Point Loma/Pasadena tradition not discussed among the general public. >I brought up the matter for two reasons: 1) to offset the damage you were >creating by publishing the material out of context. 2) to try to get you to >realize that there is more behind these documents that you reproduce without >care than you are able to surmise from the text. In consideration of 1) & 2)----What relevant context is missing from letters? London corresp emailed that E Greenwalt supplies little context on Neresheimer letter. Here is my reading: E Neresheimer & other Judge coworkers believed deceased W Judge was communicating thru Mrs Tingley. At her home Mrs Tingley was voice channel for W Judge to contact them. Am I missing important something? Enlighten poor novices about contextual info that alters this point in letter. Again what contextual matter changes message of W Judge letters Janu. 1895? If letters legit, then W Judge claims to have received communications from dead Mrs Blavatsky. What other info would change Judge's statement? Tell me----what damage I created? & can't theosophists students think for themselves? Plus you're no help since you're of inner occult circle & of academic elite refusing to provide additional info & enlighten most of us poor neophyte souls inhabiting public theos-talk forum. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:36:15 EST From: "Marshall Hemingway III" Subject: Nazis and occult groups In a message dated 98-02-27 11:22:21 EST, Mika writes: << What was the official explanation for the Nazi's to ban TS? And what do you think were the reasons they did it? >> The answer may lie in the following quote: Dietrich Eckart (a.k.a. Rudolf Glauer) "himself was entirely lacking in spiritual faculty. He simply transposed Blavatsky's grotesque descriptions of the magical conditions prevailing in the vanished civilization of Atlantis to give a pre-historical background to the mythological world of the Edda in which the Gods, giants, men and beasts were engaged in a blood curdling struggle for survival. In respinning the age-old legends of Niflheim, Muspellsheim and Mildgard, he introduced Theosophical ideas about the magical relationship between cosmos, earth and man. He predicted that the latent powers and faculties slumbering in the blood of the Aryan race would unfold in the twentieth century when Supermen would reappear on earth to awaken the German people to the glories of their ancient heritage and lead them in the conquest of the world." p. 159 THE SPEAR OF DESTINY by Trevor Ravenscroft G.P. Putnam & Sins - 1973 Eckart was a member of the quasi-mystical, neo-pagan Thule Society which borrowed many ideas from occult sources including The Secret Doctrine. The Nazis did not want any rival occult organizations competing with their racial theories, hence the suppression of the Anthroposophical Society and the TS. They did not want to coexist with any notion that the Superman spoken of in theosophy was really about Adeptship and Mahatmic consciousness, the idea that "supermen" were really about human beings who conquered the lower appetites and desires to eventually become liberated from the wheel of birth and death. The National Socialist interpretation was mundane and frightening. It was similar to the idea of the "Homo Sovieticus" of the old USSR where socialist society would produce a "new man" superior to the one produced by the democracies. Lenin said the humans beings were "protoplasmic matter to be molded by the State". The Twentieth Century will be known as the century of "isms" which released untold horror and misery, all promulgated under the aim of "human betterment" . Thank God it's coming to an end !!! Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:03:20 PST From: "David Green" Subject: W Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the deceased Judge Emailer graciously forwarded transcript of J M Pryse article I was hunting on Rajah & W Judge-------- "The Bogus Rajah Portrait" "Canadian Theosophist" June 15th 1932 p 124-5 While living in London I made the acquaintance of a young man, a genuine Occultist (I'll call him Mr. X.), who at one time did me a great service------saved my life, in fact. I painted an oil portrait of him from memory; but being a very poor painter I got Mrs. Lloyd to help me. She was an excellent artist and one of the few persons I have met who was really clairvoyant. When I mentally called up the image of my friend she would see it visually, and so between us we got a very good likeness of him. (We made many other pictures by this method; and later in Dublin my gifted Theosophical chum, the poet and artist AE, and I, often amused ourselves in the same way.) Now, Mr. X. was a white man, European; but it happened to please my fancy to have his portrait match the one of the Master M. which I had, a copy of the painting by Schmiechen, and so we gave Mr. X. the complexion of a Hindu. Later, when Mr. Judge was visiting me in my room at the Headquarters, he stood for quite a long time looking at this portrait of Mr. X. (which was hanging on the wall), then turned to me and said solemnly, "That is a picture of my Higher Self". For the moment I thought he was joking; for a picture of a "Higher Self" is to me unthinkable. But he was serious. He did not know Mr. X. and mistook the darkhued portrait for that of a Hindu. I should have undeceived him, but he was so awe-struck by the supposed likeness of his "Higher Self" that I hadn't the heart to correct his ridiculous mistake. Anyway, I thought, it came as near to being a picture of his "Higher Self" as anything he would ever obtain! He asked me to let him have a copy of it made. Of course I could not refuse; so he had an artist come up to my room and paint a copy. Judge sailed for New York before the copy was finished; but Dr. Buck, who sailed later, took it to him. Judge painted several copies of it, and the last time I saw him, shortly before his death, he showed me his latest copy, which he said was a better likeness than the others! So my wrong-complexioned portrait of Mr. X. is the original of the "Rajah" exploited by the Judge-Tingley- ites. I still have the original. Mrs. G.M. Coffin, a Welsh-American and quite clairvoyant, was the only Theosophist I know who had really seen Mr. X. She told me that she had recognized the "Rajah" portrait as a likeness of Mr. X., but was puzzled by the wrong colour until I explained to her how the white man came to be portrayed Hinduishly. In Mrs Blavatskys "Complete Writings" " 12th volu p 761-5, J Pryse bio sketch describes him--------- "Outstanding Theosophical worker and writer//////////////////////////// a man of great probity and of unselfish devotion to the principles of Theosophy and the objectives of our Movement" Did any W Judge's defenders reply in Can. journal to J Pryse? D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:19:45 -0800 From: "Thoa Thi-Kim Tran" Subject: The fog factor Hi Doss, The practical and compassionate aspect of theosophy should be the primary focus. If you can't apply those aspects, then you really are not learning the wisdom behind theosophy. The reason the Buddha would not divulge freely the esoteric knowledge was that he wanted everyone to focus on the practical and compassionate side. I think theosophy was meant for people who have a good understanding of the compassionate side and can go further to learn the secret wisdom. When HPB released the hidden knowledge, she knew she was risking the change of focus from compassion, to greed for power or knowledge. I think that is why further esoteric knowledge was not released to the general public. Thoa :o) >Hi, Thoa: > >No problem. Those signing on to the lists have wide ranging interests and >IQs and intuition levels. I did not mean to discount the capabilities of >younger generation; they are bound to be better capable in many ways than >the generation before. To be helpful to everyone on the spectrum there >should be something for every body. > >Your point about compassion is right on target. One of the issues that I am >interested in is the practical application of theosophy to every minute of >our lives. An ounce of theosophical concept and pound of application may >help Humanity. > >On this same subject, I am exploring the fundamental question regarding SD. >The authors behind the SD took a lot of trouble in producing the monumental >work like of which we may never see again in our life time. How does this >enormous effort relate to the first object of Brotherhood and helping >Humanity. For example, a concept like compassion/helping others is something >that every person with some thinking ability can comprehend. How do you make >the man on the street who is struggling with his problems -- may be health, >may be poverty, may be personal problems see any value in SD. I don't have >answers, but these I am exploring. > >May be these would lead to some very useful exploration of ideas and opinions. > >mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:58:14 -0800 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" Subject: Re:U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge Dear David, Once again we have mis-communicated. My comments to you have not been about my opinions on the Judge material you have posted. Aside from my initial November 1997 post, I do not believe that I have expressed my opinions on Judge. Rather, my communications to you over the past several months have all concerned issues of courtesy, protocol, and research methodology. Since you have not responded to these issues (except the last, to some extent) either by an acknowledgment or change in behavior, I have, perhaps wrongly assumed that you do not understand these matters well enough to make a response. But it could also be that you choose to ignore them. Whatever the reason, it is obvious to me that my efforts to communicate with you have only resulted in a waste of time. So, I believe that this ends our business, except to respond to your persistent criticism about my comment on the Jan. 1895 letter, where I said that all ES communications during this time frame came from England, and that I had no record of an ES communication for the date you gave. This is just one more example of your not giving complete enough information upon which to make an accurate comment. I asked you to give a complete citing so that we can put the document in context. In your next communication you cited the Nov. 1932 O.E. Literary critic as your source. When I looked up your reference, I found that the E.S. communication in question was actually sent out a year later than the date you gave in your initial post. So that explains my confusion over the European verses the American return address. You give me wrong information, I give you wrong answers. It is that simple. Regards jhe David Green wrote: > Yes, letters need authentication. > Of course. Yet when JHE recounts > secretaries writing letters > and W Judge's signature being > stamped on letters, this scenario > not applying to two 1895 letters > of W Judge. > > I've read "O E Library Critic" articles. > In Novem 1932 magazine, article's title is > "A letter from W.Q. Judge to Dr. A. Keightley." > Besides letterhead, rest of letter "written > in ink in the handwriting of William Q. Judge." > Transcript of dead Mrs Blavatsky's words > also in W Judge's handwriting. This > certified by Iverson L Harris, Joseph H > Fussell, Elsie V Savage, Margherita Siren & > Helen Harris. Earlier JHE claimed W Judge > was in England at time of writing letter > but Dr Stokes confirms W Judge was residing > in New York early Janu 1895. > > 2nd W Judge letter in article "A letter > from W.Q. Judge to Katherine Tingely." > "Critic" Octo 1932. > After transcription, certification reads----- > "The above is an exact copy made by me > of an original letter in William Q. Judge's > handwriting, written on two sides of > one sheet of white paper." etc etc etc etc > Signed Iverson L Harris & confirmed > J H Fussell, Helena Harris, Elsie V > Savage & Margherita Siren. > > Other version of dead Mrs Blavatsky's messages > in W Judge's handwriting examined by > Dr Stokes & old friends of W Judge--------- > "I was furnished with photographs of most of these > forgotten and now rediscovered documents. These > I compared, with the assistance of old friends of Judge, > with unquestionably genuine and personal letters of > Judge in their possession and in the presence of a person > expert in examining handwriting, and the unanimous > conclusion was that the documents were actually > written by Judge." > "Critic" Novem----Decem 1934 > > Letters are stored in Point Loma archives. Where is this? > Point Loma Pubs San Diego or Theos Soc Pasadena? > Again I ask D Tenbroeck & JHE for correct location & > email address. Let's write letters asking for verification. > Since both you well known students & with own libraries, > why not write to verify instead of expressing doubt > & vague generalities? > > D Green > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:38:59 -0600 From: "Keith Price" Subject: Re:Nazis and occult groups >From: "Marshall Hemingway III" >Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 12:27 PM >Subject: Nazis and occult groups >In a message dated 98-02-27 11:22:21 EST, Mika writes: > ><< What was the official explanation for the Nazi's to ban TS? > And what do you think were the reasons they did it? >> > >The answer may lie in the following quote: > >Dietrich Eckart (a.k.a. Rudolf Glauer) "himself was entirely lacking in >spiritual faculty. He simply transposed Blavatsky's grotesque descriptions of >the magical conditions prevailing in the vanished civilization of Atlantis to >give a pre-historical background to the mythological world of the Edda in >which the Gods, giants, men and beasts were engaged in a blood curdling >struggle for survival. In respinning the age-old legends of Niflheim, >Muspellsheim and Mildgard, he introduced Theosophical ideas about the magical >relationship between cosmos, earth and man. He predicted that the latent >powers and faculties slumbering in the blood of the Aryan race would unfold in >the twentieth century when Supermen would reappear on earth to awaken the >German people to the glories of their ancient heritage and lead them in the >conquest of the world." p. 159 > >THE SPEAR OF DESTINY by Trevor Ravenscroft >G.P. Putnam & Sins - 1973 > >Eckart was a member of the quasi-mystical, neo-pagan Thule Society which >borrowed many ideas from occult sources including The Secret Doctrine. The >Nazis did not want any rival occult organizations competing with their racial >theories, hence the suppression of the Anthroposophical Society and the TS. >They did not want to coexist with any notion that the Superman spoken of in >theosophy was really about Adeptship and Mahatmic consciousness, the idea that >"supermen" were really about human beings who conquered the lower appetites >and desires to eventually become liberated from the wheel of birth and death. >The National Socialist interpretation was mundane and frightening. It was >similar to the idea of the "Homo Sovieticus" of the old USSR where socialist >society would produce a "new man" superior to the one produced by the >democracies. Lenin said the humans beings were "protoplasmic matter to be >molded by the State". > >The Twentieth Century will be known as the century of "isms" which released >untold horror and misery, all promulgated under the aim of "human betterment" >. Thank God it's coming to an end !!! > >Lmhem111 > Keith: I am not so sure. There seems to be much unresolved karma that is behind many veils of maya. I think many more know than speak. Was Krishnamuriti going to be used in some political fashion? Why are the new cults like the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate so negative about the soulessness of the age. Does anybody believe in the divine right of kings, the divine manifest destiny of America. The cultural diversity is only bringing out a certain Balkanization of the psyche. Man is no longer split by a Berlin Wall of secular government systems, but by a wall in the psyche of man himself (see Jung). The separtation of the natural impulses into the drive for the material "satisfactions" of modern society was prophesized in Freud's CIVILIZATIONS AND ITS DISCONTENTS. Our current addiction and pathologies like bulimia, manic-depression and child killing reveals a dangerous split from the life instince and a turning to thanatos. No Eastern mumbo-jumbo of personal enlightenment can assuage the deep hunger for meaning in society a s well as the individual. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:15:02 +1100 From: "Bhive888 (Bruce)" Subject: Casting On The world's one giant ball of yarn, A cat does toss and tease, Until his master comes with along, To knit as he does please. Perhaps a cap? Perhaps a coat? Or a blanket, lest the Cosmic winds do blow! Scurry cat! Your paws are black, With sharp attack, They fray the yarn. Untwist, unwind, Unkind the pounce, With measured grace The cat does dance, - it is no fair play, This imaginary prey. Unravel this riddle, And pick up a needle, Click-klack, click-klack, Pearl to plain, Front to back, And back again. b.hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:50:01 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley Feb 27th 1998 Dear David: Personally I am neither an antagonist nor a protagonist. I agree that matters of authenticity can only be resolved by verifying documentary sources. I can go to, and check at Pasadena as you can. As to the authoring of THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875-1950. As far as I can discern it stands on documents and events that are easily traceable. It does not matter who wrote or edited the original book THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875-1925 (the 1st edition, based on the articles that originally were printed in THEOSOPHY MAGAZINE published by Theosophy Company, Los Angeles, from 1913 under the title MAHATMAS AND THEIR MESSAGE (Vols. 2, 3, 4 ...). Then later in Vol. 23 is another historical series named AFTERMATH, which covers developments after 1925 up to the time of that writing. Suffice it to say that the authors/editors had/have documentary evidence for every statement that they made. Originals or copies thereof are available from the respective archives or publicly printed material available at many places. The O.E. LIBRARY CRITIC contains the views of Dr. Stokes and was entirely the result of his looking into documents issued by the various "theosophical bodies" then and earlier. He appears to have been impartial, but very forceful. But, if one wants to spend time in reviewing the history of many unnecessary things done without due and careful consideration of their future effects, one can spend many hours just rereading all that is now in various libraries. It is of course wise for those who question seriously to read and accumulate for themselves the archival proofs of what is alleged, and, question vigorously any expression of opinion or of fact that is not well covered by such material. A number of books have been published down the years which purport to give the view of recent Theosophical History from the perspective of the several Theosophical bodies, as they are organized. For some it is very interesting, but it has, to my mind a serious drawback: much of it is a waste of time when one considers the vibrant need of the future -- of what THEOSOPHY is, and how it ought to be promulgated. that is where we all ought to be working hard. We cannot change the past. But if some wrong has been done, -- just as HPB herself states at the beginning of both ISIS and the S D, -- effort has to be devoted to restoring calumniated reputations that deserve to be redressed. We, all of us, are now at the crisis point: from where we are, springs the future. Is it to be a re-opening of wrangles ? Those are past and done with and cannot be undone. The documents are there. The moves made, however wonderful, or unsavory will bear their own Karma. The future is what we will make of it for humanity. that is widely entrusted to us. It will need all our combined wisdom to do a passable job of transmitting Theosophy forward. We are rather concerned with what we can do. The Path to brotherly action is that which occupies us. To try to rewrite history is wasted time. To make sure that what is said is true is necessary, and each should allocate what time they can to that, if it is required. I say (in so far as I am able) that all we can do is to assist others. The Message of Theosophy unites. The several "bodes" which have sheltered or exposed it to others have to answer for either their clarity or their obscuration of THEOSOPHY. As to Mrs. Tingley's channeling, all I can say is: we have to observe the nature of the statements, and ask if they agree with Theosophy. That was the responsibility of the surviving friends and students of Mr. Judge. Did they stand fast 'calmly?' Did they 'Go slow?' I see in their actions that there was hurry and precipitation. I can understand it. But then, I also see that once a decision was arrived at, the error of haste soon showed itself. As to what Mrs. Tingley said in channeling WQJ(?) after his 'death' -- it may be true or not, and accuracy may vary from instance to instance. My whole point is: " Why do people believe that they have to rely on such things at all ? Why is it necessary that everyone agrees to make changes, without thinking out the potentiality of the future ? Why the rush? " The whole thrust of Theosophy is to develop individual self-reliance, and not dependence on others. The survivors had the future of the T S in A in their hands as a group. it was not necessary to place every power in the hands of a single person, until adequate time was given to test and verify if such a choice was to be given. Interim measures could have been instituted. They were not. The impetus of Mr. Judge's work existed and could easily have been forwarded. Nothing startling or new was needed. Is that what happened? If not, why not ? As usual we all have 20/20 vision in retrospect. How do we develop intuition ? What are THEOSOPHICAL PRINCIPLES FOR APPLICATION ? Do we have them firmly in mind today, each for himself? Are we willing to place our thoughts into others minds? And if a proposal arises that has dangers inherent in it, are we prepared to stand firm against it, and explain what principles we are invoking -- so that others may see and understand ? That is one of the hardest tests of all. How do we work even-handed for all? WQJ repeatedly said that there should be calmness and all should proceed slowly. Was that done ? Why did almost all of those who supported the election of Mrs. T. to the posts she received IN TRUST, leave so shortly afterwards (1896-1898)-- about a year and a half? Of course some stayed on. Consider the whole course of the TS in A -- the Name change, the move to Point Loma, etc... has it been smooth ? Has it CONTINUED the work that WQJ initiated and sustained, or did it branch out into many other unsuccessful things ? What was the point of speeding off into a "crusade" around the world, and sending back vivid accounts of successes, which were not sustained. Where was the follow-through? I do not quote these things to wrangle. I only bring them forward as questions based on things, facts that occurred and which, to me, have never been fully cleared up. That is all. I do not want to be contentious with anyone, least of all you and any of my many friends in Pasadena T S, or anywhere else. Unity and brotherhood demands that we base ourselves on facts not on second or third-hand views we have not yet substantiated. Let then move forward, not back. As I see it, the whole problem is one of "belief, and faith" -- in the sense that a "tradition" has been passed down as correct. When this is questioned there is a natural reaction of horror and annoyance -- that anyone might question the motives, etc... etc... ! But, to be critical and to ask for accurate information requires openness on all sides. Let us be quite clear: theosophy is for each individual. It does not 'belong" to one "organization" or another. Organizations are for help in individual study, and to see that the literature is kept available and promulgated. What else ? Theosophy does not require either a "church," or a "congregation." The best side to adopt, is then "no side." I speak and write only for myself, so all that I say is entirely on my own responsibility. I have offered to be of assistance to you in your stated endeavour to prepare a good biography of Mr. Judge. Assemble your materials. Then we can check for agreement or for any differences. I do hope this clears up my position as much as I can offer it in answer to some of your observations. your friend, Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:04:21 EST From: "Pat Reda" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization i asked joan to jot down a few of the sites that came to the top of her head. i was in a hurry due to the fact that it was after 12 noon and i had to get back to my office in downtown chicago. these are what i received. it was my understanding that the list was not all-inclusive. it was also conveyed to me that there are currently no chat sites relating to theosophy. i am relaying this information not to fuel any burning embers to berate the society or its officers for its lack of participation in discussion sites. i only intend to convey these facts in a neutral position and for the benefit of other "newbies" such as my humble and insignificant self. ts-l@theosophia.org theos-l@vnet.net theos-talk@theosophy.com ti-l@vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:27:24 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Truth is higher than any religion/organization Magi42 wrote: > > i asked joan to jot down a few of the sites that came to the top of her head. > i was in a hurry due to the fact that it was after 12 noon and i had to get > back to my office in downtown chicago. these are what i received. it was my > understanding that the list was not all-inclusive. it was also conveyed to me > that there are currently no chat sites relating to theosophy. i am relaying > this information not to fuel any burning embers to berate the society or its > officers for its lack of participation in discussion sites. i only intend to > convey these facts in a neutral position and for the benefit of other > "newbies" such as my humble and insignificant self. > > ts-l@theosophia.org theos-l@vnet.net theos-talk@theosophy.com > ti-l@vnet.net > I am glad that you detailed the circumstances under which you got the information. The only other item I would like to mention would be the alt.theosophy, the only newsgroup in existence which is rather very little active. I occassionally visit it to see if any new msgs are there. As news groups are more easily located by a Internet newbee and more easily accessed, occasionally someone posts a request as to where to go to for more information and hence is a source of attracting new Internet users to Theosophy. Whether one is newbee or not does not matter. Each one of us is very important. All of us are just inquirers and students try to learn and understand and helpful to every living being. Namasthe mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:41:29 PST From: "David Green" Subject: U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote-------- >So, I believe that this ends our business, except to respond to your >persistent criticism about my comment on the Jan. 1895 letter, where I said >that all ES communications during this time frame came from England, and >that I had no record of an ES communication for the date you gave. This is >just one more example of your not giving complete enough information upon >which to make an accurate comment. I asked you to give a complete citing so >that we can put the document in context. In your next communication you >cited the Nov. 1932 O.E. Literary critic as your source. When I looked up >your reference, I found that the E.S. communication in question was actually >sent out a year later than the date you gave in your initial post. So that >explains my confusion over the European verses the American return >address. You give me wrong information, I give you wrong answers. It is >that simple. JHE--------- What info wrong? Which E S communication actually sent out a year later than the date given by me? Are you pointing to W Judge Janu 5 1895 letter to A Keightley? What date do you assign it? What is basis for your correction? Clarification requested. I think your confused. D Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:49:51 -0800 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Theosophical Mailing Lists on the Internet Here's all the theosophical mailing lists that I've encountered or heard of in the past year or two. If anyone has any corrections, let me know, then I'll repost the corrected list. If anyone knows of any others, also let me know and I'll add them to the list. -- Eldon ---- > list: nl-l@theosophia.org (MODERATED) > list type: majordomo, non-digest > last posting: 2/13/98 > description: for National Lodge of the T.S. in America > organization: T.S. in America [Adyar] > list owner: olcott@theosophia.org (Joan McDougal) > to subscribe: "subscribe nl-l" to nl-l-request@theosophia.org > > list: ts-l@theosophia.org (MODERATED) > list type: majordomo, non-digest > last posting: 2/13/1998 > description: general theosophical discussion list > organization: T.S. in America [Adyar] > list owner: olcott@theosophia.org (Joan McDougal) > to subscribe: "subscribe ts-l" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org > > list: ti-l@vnet.net > list type: listproc, digest & non-digest > last posting: 2/27/1998 > description: general theosophical discussion list > organization: Theosophical International [Independent] > list owner: guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Alan Bain) > to subscribe: "subscribe ti-l Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > > list: theos-talk@theosophy.com > list type: listproc, digest & non-digest > last posting: 2/27/1998 > description: theosophical discussion (with THEOSOPHY WORLD monthly) > organization: Wisdom Tradition [Independent] > list owner: editor@theosophy.com (Eldon Tucker) > to subscribe: "subscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com > > list: theos-l > list type: listproc, digest & non-digest > description: general theosophical discussion list (chat) > last posting: 2/27/1998 > organization: none > list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) > to subscribe: "subscribe theos-l Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > > list: theos-roots > list type: listproc, digest & non-digest > last posting: more than a month ago > description: general theosophical discussion list (historic, source) > organization: none > list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) > to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > > list: theos-buds > list type: listproc, digest & non-digest > last posting: 2/2/1998 > description: general theosophical discussion list (3rd object) > organization: none > list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) > to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > > list: theos-news > list type: listproc, digest & non-digest > description: general theosophical discussion list (news) > last posting: 2/?/1998 > organization: none > list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) > to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > > list: theos-tech > list type: listproc, digest & non-digest > last posting: mont than a month ago > description: general theosophical discussion list (projects) > organization: none > list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) > to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > > list: theos-span > list type: listproc, digest & non-digest > last posting: 2/19/1998 > description: general theosophical discussion list (Spanish) > organization: none > list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) > to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > > list: hct-l > list type: majordomo, non-digest > last posting: new list > description: theosophical discussion (with HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST) > organization: High Country Theosophist > list owner: high@theosophy.com (Dick Slusser) > to subscribe: "subscribe" to hct-l-request@theosophy.com > > list: ts-nz@theosophy.org.nz > list type: majordomo, non-digest > last posting: ??? > description: general theosophical discussion list > organization: T.S. in New Zealand > list owner: ??? > to subscribe: "subscribe" to ts-nz-request@theosophy.org.nz > > list: theos-n@isholf.is > list type: majordomo, non-digest > last posting: ??? > description: theosophical discussions and translations (Icelandic) > organization: T.S. in Iceland ? > list owner: meta@isholf.is (Sveinn Freyr) > to subscribe: "subscribe" to theos-n-request@isholf.is > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:49:34 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re:U L T book speaks out on W Judge & dead Blavatsky/K Tingley & deceased Judge Feb 28th '98 Dear David: Many thanks for the good job of providing the sources from which those interesting letters attributed to Judge or reported to be his words came. That is a great help. I will see if there is anything more that I can say or ask in a little while. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:55:10 -0600 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re:Theosophical Mailing Lists on the Internet At 08:49 PM 2/27/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Here's all the theosophical mailing lists that I've >encountered or heard of in the past year or two. >If anyone has any corrections, let me know, then I'll >repost the corrected list. If anyone knows of any >others, also let me know and I'll add them to the >list. > >-- Eldon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clipped<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >---- > >list: theos-buds >list type: listproc, digest & non-digest >last posting: 2/2/1998 >description: general theosophical discussion list (3rd object) >organization: none >list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) >to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > >list: theos-news >list type: listproc, digest & non-digest >description: general theosophical discussion list (news) >last posting: 2/?/1998 >organization: none >list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) >to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > >list: theos-tech >list type: listproc, digest & non-digest >last posting: mont than a month ago >description: general theosophical discussion list (projects) >organization: none >list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) >to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > >list: theos-span >list type: listproc, digest & non-digest >last posting: 2/19/1998 >description: general theosophical discussion list (Spanish) >organization: none >list owner: jmead@infoave.net (John Mead) >to subscribe: "subcribe theos-roots Your Name" to listserv@vnet.net > Dear Eldon: The subscription info on the above lists should be corrected. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:01:27 -0800 From: "Brenda S Tucker" Subject: Re:W Judge and the dead Blavatsky/K Tingley and the deceased Judge >Later, when Mr. Judge >was visiting me in my room at the >Headquarters, he stood for quite >a long time looking at this >portrait of Mr. X. (which was >hanging on the wall), then turned >to me and said solemnly, "That is >a picture of my Higher Self". David, I have some questions for you. Have you ever read my position on the seven races? If so, you may be willing to consider that while the fifth race of man is very limited in its contact and recognition of an ascended master within a designated area of our human constitution, i.e., the soul body, it may be true: 1. Fifth race responds to myriads of ascended beings who work quietly within us without recognition. 2. Sixth race may differ from the fifth in the sense that at one point this fluidity of movement of the ascended masters through our "higher selves" tones down to become a definite pairing of one ascended master to one human being. While a forerunner of the actual (inner and outer) event could be found in the sixth subrace (currently being founded), would this mean that the bondage between two separate beings would become more permanent and more stable?! 3. I was considering the reason that we treat the founders of the I AM Temple as if they were ascended masters in our decree work and then it dawned upon me that perhaps "ascension" in their understanding of the word necessitates a "pairing" of one ascended master being with one human being and that therefore when we refer to the founders as "Godfre and Lotus" we are referring to their actual ascended master counterpart because their human names would be Guy and Edna. 4. Just because Guy and Edna have Godfre and Lotus present in their "Presence" doesn't mean that other energies cannot be present there, too. I would still imagine that a variety of beings: angels, kumaras, elohim, etc., could influence the activity of this dual-being. So, in consideration of the foregoing and an historical presentation of theosophy alongside spiritualism (even in the I AM teachings, because HPB receives laurels next to Mary Baker Eddy in our lesson today.) I can understand the reason for HPB's importance because she was the first to bring the ascended masters to the world's attention, but what is so important about spiritualism, Mary Baker Eddy, and Judge and Tingley channeling their departed friends and superiors, respectively, HPB and Judge. When they receive messages from the deceased, how does this help the whole case as I am presenting it? Spiritualism doesn't seem to afford much proof for masters. The only proof it affords is to the safety and continued existence of our "friends" after their death. Is this type of well-being for the humans essential to the peace of mind of the masses? Yours truly,