Theos-Talk Archives (November 2012 Message tt00047)

Dear Morten and friends,

When I posted here that I had been banned from theos.net I did it with basically two purposes:

1)	To warn those who visit theos-talk that there is intolerance on theos.net and that a exclusivist vision is presented there. I think it is a duty to warn others, especially beginners, that theos.net has problems of freedom of thought and presents a distorted vision of modern theosophy.

2)	As I mentioned in my last post, intolerance is not an exclusive problem of theos.net, since similar cases have been  reported in relation to other forums. So, this is a more general problem that should be of concern to all.

So, my intention was not to promote a virtual trial of the theos.net administrators, but to draw awareness to a problem which poisons the relationships between theosophists.

In the past, other students complained here on theos-talk that they too had been banned from theos.net. I cannot also be accused of backbiting, because my last 3 or 4 posts on theos.net were pretty clear, especially the last one.

In the First Letter to Americans Theosophists, HPB wrote:

"On the day when Theosophy will have accomplished its most holy and most important mission ? namely, to unite firmly a body of men of all nations in brotherly love and bent on a pure altruistic work"

How can this body of men be built if we remain impassive when we witness such degree of bigotry? 

I am sure that we can make an effort to promote tolerance and respect for different views (within certain limits as HPB wrote), while at the same time cautioning others to the dangers of fundamentalism.

So, I agree that we must not focus too much in this type of negative events, but we cannot ignore them. 

And yes, I am perfectly aware that " (?), first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." (Matt 7:5)"

PB



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Marcus and friends
> 
> My views are:
> 
> Some views is offered by me...
> 
> Marcus wrote:
> "The trick is to help others without judging them."
> 
> Yes, indeed. But....there seem indeed to be more to it than that...
> 
> Because can help always be offered without the helper get accused of being judgmental?
> And what level of "clairvoyance" (in any sense of the word) or sense of precognition is a helper required to have before seek to help others?
> 
> 
> ---
> I ask because, various persons can always play the role as being "overly and extremely thin-skinned, suffer from neurotic paranoia" and claim that anyone is judging and always is after them   --- even when it merely is the little selfish ego, which is unwilling to know the truth. - OR when their  - self-esteem or pride - is being shown as it really is. Many well-known persons suffer in fact from such a problematic blockage. (Or in reality be victims of being "thin-skinned" - and therefore in need for psychological help). There are in fact those who shake with fear even when hearing their own steps when they walk in life. But most often it is other persons "steps" they fear - call judgemental. 
> 
> And when they (the "thin-skinned") point their fingers at other persons - they forget that fingers also point at themselves.
> 
> 
> An example:
> If the child and the mother is in the kitchen, and the hotplate is red-hot - and the child seek to put his/her hand on the hotplate - and - the mother well-meaningly removes the hand, and seek to explain the crying child that this is not a good idea and why it is not - would you call the mother - a judging mother? Or a helpful mother?
> 
> The truth is sometimes hard to swallow - but when digested it is a nutrient, says an old proverb.
> 
> One can always read bad motives into a wellmeaning persons actions or their comments. But when the same person as well as the respondent is unwilling to explain the ethics with his or her actions - I begin to worry about whether such a person is quite healthy or sane.
> 
> Claiming to promote Freedom of thought - by promoting that some groups deliberately are excluded (and others not) is not freedom of thought in an non-sectatrian manner, it is sectarian. And we can ask whether altruism can be build on a sectarian stance? And whether wisdom is sectarian?
> 
> I find this to be a simple logical conclusion and logical questions to ask.
> 
> __________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT IS THEOSOPHY?
> "Theosophy is the exact science of psychology" 
> (The Theosophist, Vol. I, 1879).
> 
> __________________________________
> 
> 
> More expanded info...
> Especially to those who find that they might be able to learn something, and who do not claim that they know all and everything...
> 
> 
> Try the following which I posted november 2011 about one year ago here at Theos-talk:
> 
> An Article on: The Science of Subtle Mind Control - or - Coercive Persuasion 
> "The importance of the science of Psychology aught perhaps not to be
> underestimated in our times. Just a few hundred years ago, it was in general not
> known by ordinary people in the Western countries and also in many other
> countries on the planet. But in the recent decades the percentage of persons
> being able to read and write has increased tremendously in great many countries
> on the globe. And since we are dealing with a science and not a belief - we
> aught to take it seriously if we, as most Seekers after Wisdom do, are seeking
> to promote altruism, and seek to do it earnestly and sincerely. Because it must
> be a fact, that there cannot be promoted altruism without some kind of
> psychological change in the individual and among people in general. And this I
> find to be important and I hope that you do the same, unless a better angle can
> be presented."
> .......
> "And today the science on Subtle Mind Control can be said to be a fact, that
> almost only is really well-known by so-called Exit-counsellors (those who help
> victims of cults and sects) and educated psychologists of various kinds, -
> religious and non-religious. People in general only seem to be aware of this
> science called Subtle Mind Control in quite a superficial manner. And this
> despite it is a science, and which with regard to religious groups and
> organisations has a lot to do with how altruism (if possible) can be promoted
> and is being promoted. And altruism is something which in general is claimed to
> be very high on the agenda in religious groups and organisations. (See also
> Wikipedia Exit-Counsellors - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_counseling)."
> .......
> "Phobias are so central in many religious organisations these days, so it will
> perhaps be a good idea to write a few extra words so better to explain what
> there in reality might be going on when Subtle Mind Control takes place.
> Phobias are persistent, irrational fears of an object, situation or
> organisation. All phobias can be stimulated by a cue that activates a somewhat
> closed cycle of fearful images, thoughts and feelings. The stimulation often
> creates a fearful panic-reaction in the individual a "fight-or-flight" response,
> an automatic survival reaction takes place. The most common coping mechanism for
> a phobic individual is avoidance of the activated stimulus. Phobias destabilise
> and undermine the individuals view of reality, emotional and intellectual
> control, self-confidence, and judgement. Typical non-religious phobias are fear
> for public speaking, heights, dark places, drowning, snakes, spiders etc. etc. A
> high number of persons on this planet these days suffer from one or more
> phobias."
> .......
> "The psychologists and Exit-Counsellors talk about three main stages all people
> go through when they slowly (or suddenly) convert to a new religion or a New Age
> group or organisation. They are Unfreezing, Changing, and Refreezing. I am here
> in the below outlining some of the aspects, which can be involved. In some
> organisations, some of the mentioned elements are not there, in others they are
> more or less.
> 
> 1) Unfreezing is shortly stated:
> Desorientation or confusion for the newcomer. There is so much that one does not
> know about. Sensory deprivation or the opposite overload of sensory input.
> Physiological manipulation - which are slowly being increased, sleep deprivation
> and other methods, (more and more work is being demanded or exercises etc.).
> Special food-programs perhaps with excessive fasting. Hypnosis sometimes masked
> as Healing, regression theraphy, confession-systems or similar versions. Getting
> the newcomer to question his or her self-identity. And redefine the his or her
> past.
> 
> 2) Changing is shortly stated:
> Creation of a new "identity" (Perhaps a so-called Protean Self more or less
> "victimized"). This can happen formally with indoctrination sessions. And
> sessions on a higher level with more access to new info. Or more informally with
> members and books. - Use of Behavior Modification Techniques (Often with reward
> and punishment methods or control of the environment; you might become a
> residential member inside the "Ashram".) Mystical manipulation is another
> method. Repetition, monotony, rhythm and other methods. Excessive chanting and
> praying. - Or not unimportant, - also the use of confessions and testimonials to
> a Superior or what is merely called a fellow member. And more.
> 
> 3) Refreezing is shortly stated:
> The new identity is reinforced, and the old identity is abandoned or similar.
> One say goodbye to the past. This might involve to finally cut the contact with
> ones family and friends, and even longtime friends. Quitting ones job. One might
> give up useful possessions and donate assets, and a lot of money. -- Then one
> become an active member and begin to fundraise or recruit new members for the
> cause. - One might begin to wear new clothes, with other colors, or expensive
> "green environment" clothes, change hairstyle, and get a new "family". - And the
> indoctrination continues and is reinforced - also so to the demand for reaching
> the next level in the many course and modules which are being offered - not
> seldom to a huge price.
> (The psychologist Kurt Lewin was one of the first to forward this theory in
> modern times. Kurt Lewin was also involved with Tavistock Institute of Human
> Relations.)
> 
> Even when such a process of conversion more or less occurs, and it can happen in
> a variety of ways and modes, - the "victim" might be very happy about the new
> situation, the new social connections, the new religious relationship and belief
> or assumed knowledge etc. etc. At other times this is in reality in fact only a
> superficial happiness. Beneath it all looms the real reasons to why the member -
> actually - originally joined the religious group or organisation, the real
> psychological motivations behind the decision or decisions. At other times the
> "victim" might even be unhappy, but stay in the religious organisation because
> of social relations and other reasons - or not seldom because Phobia or fear
> already is working efficiently in the individuals sub-consciousness and are
> making it effectively impossible to break free from the religious sect or
> organisation. The "victim" is then a "victim" of Subtle Mind Control, and does
> in most case not even know about it."
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/57015  (Part 1 of 3)
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/57019  (Part 2 of 3)
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/57020  (Part 3 of 3)
> 
> Sorry about the bad English. But I do hope that some of the readers might find the article helpful when viewed as a whole. It might seem to be boring to read initially, but there is certainly something of value in it.
> 
> But I guess that some persons has a H. P. Blavatsky or Theospohical Organizations - phobia.
> 
>  
> __________________________________
> 
> WHAT IS THEOSOPHY?
> "Theosophy is the exact science of psychology" 
> (The Theosophist, Vol. I, 1879).
> 
> 
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Hughes, Marcus 
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:10 PM
>   Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Another episode of intolerance on theos.net
> 
> 
>     
>   .
> 
>   Do we from time to time need to point out how we might be able to improve the situation?
> 
>   Well this is the bottom line, the ultimate dilemma. Does pointing out possible improvements constitute a judgement ??? you know the answer.
> 
>   The trick is to help others without judging them. To give unselfishly is to not contemplate its merits.
>   A very thin line that only loves can understand and sustain.
> 
>   Who among us fully understand the work of the supreme intelligent universe?
> 
>   Was the devil a mistake ???
> 
>   .
> 
>   From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hughes
>   Sent: 14 November 2012 1:04 AM
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: theos-talk Re: Another episode of intolerance on theos.net
> 
>   Good insight .- Thankyou so much Friend. Cheers!!
> 
>   --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@<mailto:global-theosophy@>> wrote:
>   >
>   > Marcus wrote:
>   > "We don't need to point out the failings of any attempt to assist others. "
>   >
>   > Do we from time to time need to point out how we might be able to improve the situation?
>   >
>   >
>   > M. Sufilight
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: marcus_oxo
>   > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>   > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:13 AM
>   > Subject: theos-talk Re: Another episode of intolerance on theos.net
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > .
>   >
>   > When God created you, where in the terms and conditions did it say that it was going to be easy?
>   >
>   > MPH knew that mankind is not designed for easy. The general logos (divine logic) of the human challenge is one of rising above the constrains of duality. The hope being that eventually a majority of mankind will awaken and enable the next phase of evolution for conscious awareness. These our journeys are to benefit the collective life-force.
>   >
>   > We don't need to point out the failings of any attempt to assist others.
>   >
>   > TS will run it's course as will all religions. As will these life journeys. Politics and business are all bound by the illusion of profit and loss. It's a universal spiritual law. Place your mind in that place where the light shines brightly on your face, stay there and lead by example. The decay of this creation is as beautiful as it's growth. Celebrate both equally and the life collective has gained one more star.
>   >
>   > Always remember your actions should promote positive progression without judgement.
>   >
>   > Peace and love ..........
>   >
>   > .
>   > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel" <danielhcaldwell@> wrote:
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Paulo,
>   > >
>   > > I dont understand why there is this kind of intolerance. People have different views.
>   > >
>   > > Whats the big deal?
>   > >
>   > > I guess they feel threatned or like to play dictator.
>   > >
>   > > Hopefully this doent happen at Theos-talk.
>   > >
>   > > Daniel
>   > > htp://hpb.cc
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "paulobaptista_v" <paulobaptista_v@> wrote:
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > Morten, Jacques and Daniel,
>   > > >
>   > > > Thanks for your support, but I really I am not that upset. Theos.net has lost a lot of interest. In the last year, many have left or were banned like me.
>   > > >
>   > > > However there is a clear problem of intolerance and it is not exclusive of theos.net. During the weekend I heard from a well-known theosophist another story of fundamentalism which ended in the same way - account suspended!
>   > > >
>   > > > So hard to remember what Blavatsky wrote in the First Letter to American Theosophists:
>   > > >
>   > > > "Orthodoxy in Theosophy is a thing neither possible nor desirable. It is diversity of opinion, within certain limits, that keeps the Theosophical Society a living and a healthy body, its many other ugly features notwithstanding. Were it not, also, for the existence of a large amount of uncertainty in the minds of students of Theosophy, such healthy divergencies would be impossible, and the Society would degenerate into a sect, in which a narrow and stereotyped creed would take the place of the living and breathing spirit of Truth and an ever growing Knowledge."
>   > > >
>   > > > PB
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel" <danielhcaldwell@> wrote:
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Ah, Paulo, I see you have dared to question the Great Oz.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > So you are summarily dismissed.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Well, here is one example of the "fondness" shown for HPB in the land of Oz:
>   > > > >
>   > > > > "Her work will just fade into the halls of all the books she stole material from; or was told by people she seemed to believe in. Her stuff does not work in the 21st century. Frankly - if people want to know about Theosophy... keep them away from HPB. They will only become entrapped in the Esoteric Bogs and attempts to define/unify and justify her Doctrine of the "One Perennial Wisdom Religion". That is a fatal trap for most people's personal growth..."
>   > > > >
>   > > > > http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/blavatsky-s-theosophy?commentId=3055387%3AComment%3A116264
>   > > > >
>   > > > > I suppose that writer has not been thrown off the site but you have been.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > So go figure.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Daniel
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com<mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "paulobaptista_v" <paulobaptista_v@> wrote:
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > I'm sure I'm not the first one to complain, but once again theos.net has proved that freedom of thought and speech is not something that its administrators appreciate.
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > One user accused them of not being fond of Blavatsky,
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/hpb-s-s-d-and-its-relation-with-politics?xg_source=activity
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > a remark which they didn´t like and in reply wrote:
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > "First of all, there is a very blatant misstatement at the beginning. Nobody on the board or on the moderating team have anything against HPB. In fact most of us have been students of hers for a very long time.
>   > > > > > Read this carefully and understand it well. IT IS HER FOLLOWERS.
>   > > > > > It is the followers who have bankrupt imaginations which are obsessed with the Secret Doctrine and other of Blavatsky's books, as if they are the only source of enlightenment. It is the inability to move out of the 19th Century and apply the wisdom not only to today's world, but tomorrow's too. It is the insistence on a complete and total belief in her unseen masters which poisons all creativity and productive effort in the present."
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > I found this to be completely off the mark and replied:
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > "To blame HPB "followers" is absolutely ridiculous.
>   > > > > > Who accused Blavatsky of "magical thinking" or "of being a mixed bag"? Certainly not her "followers".
>   > > > > > Who brought here half truths and innuendos about HPB? Certainly not her "followers".
>   > > > > > Who suggested that some of her claims, like the existence of Masters, were nonsense? Certainly not her "followers"
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > etc, etc. (it's a bit long, but nothing of what I wrote can be considered impolite).
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > My reply was erased and my account was suspended.
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > Joe Fulton sent me a message but since I was banned I can´t read it in full!
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > It starts like this:
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > "Mr. Baptista,
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > This is our site and we have a point of view. This is not an open forum for any person to post anything as they see fit. We have made our position extremely clear as to who we are an..."
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > I sure would like to finish that sentence.
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > So, having a point of view means not accepting other people's opinions.
>   > > > > > Well, isn´t this the way that dictatorships work?
>   > > > > > No wonder that almost everyone that studies modern Theosophy has already left theos.net.
>   > > > > > It's a pity watching old folks behaving like elementary school bullies.
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > PB
>   > > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > >
>   > >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
> 
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