Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
Jan 20, 2012 07:53 AM
by M. Sufilight
Yes. Certainly among the offcially known persons in the 19th century, she was certainly among the most extraordinary.
And in the 20th century - we had no one on the same level?
----- Original Message -----
From: MKR
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
HPB's voluminous writings stand on their own even after more than a
century. The fact that we are discussing her and her writings says a lot.
Whatever techniques she used, the fact is many many were helped by her
writings and beneficiaries of the information she presented to the world.
We are yet to see another such instance.
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Govert Schuller <schuller@gifcabYJrcvH7lH3wphHF5jw_MiFJMAa2dFgorahV7oL7OG8WTY8_5GtcwFROsHq2BtPzhiit8sjXgeK.yahoo.invalid>wrote:
> **
>
>
> Somebody suggested photographic memory.
>
> There is also the psychological phenomenon of being able to write loads of
> stuff, that is, tens of thousands of pages in a lifetime.
>
> Book of Dzyan was inaccessible for anyone except HPB, either because she
> was trusted to deal with it or she had the only copy ever in her mind.
>
> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Cass Silva
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 6:31 PM
>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky,
> etc.
>
> Were these ancient works - the Vita, Upanishads, Rig Veda, Book of Dzyan,
> available in English/Russian in her time? How would she have been able to
> access them? How could one mind retain all the information and subsequent
> references that she provided in Isis and SD in such a relatively short
> period of time? I doubt if even an Einstein or a Hawking could achieve
> this. I imagine to repeat the experiment would require a team of
> researchers. I agree she has achieved historical noteriety but this came
> after her death. She was debunked by all as a charletan of the worst kind.
> If nothing else she provided an alternative theory to what Religion and
> budding science was then presenting to the world.
>
> According to what I have read and whether true or not is up for grabs, but
> apparently the world has at various times some sort of porthole to present
> new knowledge to the world and that HPB was the best available at the time
> for using this time gap to give the west a peak under the veil. The ideas
> she brought mushroomed different thinking in all the sciences, especially
> psychology.
>
> Cass
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@gifcabYJrcvH7lH3wphHF5jw_MiFJMAa2dFgorahV7oL7OG8WTY8_5GtcwFROsHq2BtPzhiit8sjXgeK.yahoo.invalid <mailto:
> schuller%40alpheus.org> >
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Friday, 20 January 2012 4:37 AM
> >Subject: RE: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky,
> etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >Yes and no. There are multiple sources from which she might have drawn
> her ideas. There is no study which sorted out what were HPBâs own original
> contributions and what she could have derived from sources she had access
> to. HPB-biographer Meade found an invoice indicating that HPB had ordered a
> large amount of books by the prolific spiritualist theorist Andrew Jackson
> Davis. Meade thinks that HPB found a lot of her SD material in Davisâ
> works.
> >
> >She also might have had some chemical help in bolstering her imagination.
> One journalist is on record of having discussed with HPB the relative
> merits of pot and opium for the workings of the imagination with HPB
> stating that she preferred pot.
> >
> >Correct me if Iâm wrong, but underlying your exclamation about HPBâs
> supposed âhell of an imaginationâ if sheâd were a fraudster is that,
> because it was too much for to have cooked up, she was not a fraudster. Is
> that your sub-text?
> >
> >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> ] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
> >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:06 PM
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky,
> etc.
> >
> >All I can conclude is that if she was a fraudster she had one hell of an
> imagination! lol
> >Cass
> >
> >>________________________________
> >> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@gifcabYJrcvH7lH3wphHF5jw_MiFJMAa2dFgorahV7oL7OG8WTY8_5GtcwFROsHq2BtPzhiit8sjXgeK.yahoo.invalid <mailto:
> schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
> >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012 8:20 AM
> >>Subject: RE: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of
> Blavatsky, etc.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Strategies to substantiate the genuineness of HPB by arguing that she
> didnât get any fame, money or power out of establishing Theosophy are imo
> somewhat simple and not open-minded towards psychological alternatives.
> Actually, she did get some fame and power and might have relished it at
> certain moments. She also had set-backs of course. I do not regard her
> motivation, the basic impetus which drove her, as clearly established. And
> I do not belief her own self-presentation necessarily. To me sheâs now
> again somewhat of a puzzle with possibly some dark overtones.
> >>
> >>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@h6efxTJrGzAXeu_0DeY8l3VGjL-p7PktFLDR6UigQad08EvSJ14NcydXlN-Dxn3uoZkcX71HTyXuzMA9-uFiZYzo.yahoo.invalidm<mailto:
> theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Behalf Of Cass Silva
>
> >>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:11 PM
> >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> >>Subject: Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of
> Blavatsky, etc.
> >>
> >>I could understand this if there was a million dollar cheque at the end
> of it. But why spend a lifetime on building something with no rewards, be
> it, financial or otherwise.
> >>The agenda of a Fraudster would show itself in either qudos or power.
> HPB received nothing from establishing theosophy in the west but criticism
> and insult.
> >>
> >>Cass
> >>
> >>>________________________________
> >>> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@gifcabYJrcvH7lH3wphHF5jw_MiFJMAa2dFgorahV7oL7OG8WTY8_5GtcwFROsHq2BtPzhiit8sjXgeK.yahoo.invalid <mailto:
> schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:
> schuller%40alpheus.org> >
> >>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> >>>Sent: Monday, 16 January 2012 5:36 AM
> >>>Subject: RE: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of
> Blavatsky, etc.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Thanks for sharing. Always good to hear some biographical background.
> >>>
> >>>"It was obvious at least to me at some point that if HPB was just a
> fraud
> >>>and her Masters really didn't exist, then obviously LATER claims were
> also
> >>>fraudulent and illusionary."
> >>>
> >>>Quite so.
> >>>
> >>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> ] On
>
> >>>Behalf Of Daniel H. Caldwell
> >>>Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 10:10 PM
> >>>To: theos talk
> >>>Cc: danielhcaldwell@o4CFYn_JOsM1uJxvLgFQsPnu4CQrCJ54qsZ_WzJbAhXb0SHJjgIoLx43RZbt4iGarbCs4_qMTilvFtF4E3-IcOw2zw.yahoo.invalid <mailto:danielhcaldwell%40yahoo.com>
> <mailto:danielhcaldwell%40yahoo.com> <mailto:danielhcaldwell%40yahoo.com>
> >>>Subject: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky,
> etc.
> >>>
> >>>Pablo's article on the Masters versus the Ascended Masters and
> >>>Govert's reply, etc. have made me think back to how I first came to
> >>>Theosophy and my subsequent study and research.
> >>>
> >>>I first read about Theosophy through reading books by Annie Besant and
> C.W.
> >>>Leadbeater. It was only later that I came across THE MAHATMA LETTERS
> and THE
> >>>SECRET DOCTRINE.
> >>>
> >>>And then upon reading the latter 2 works, I started being quite puzzled
> by
> >>>what seemed like all sorts of differences between Besant/Leadbeater and
> The
> >>>Mahatma Letters/Secret Doctrine. I remember I was quite confused by all
> of
> >>>that. At that point in time I didn't have a clue as to what was
> what or
> >>>as to what was going on. I had not heard at that stage that there was a
> >>>"Theosophy" that was supposedly different from "Neo-Theosophy."
> >>>
> >>>Without going into alot of other interesting detail, etc, as time went
> on I
> >>>found out that there were other people claiming also to be in contact
> with
> >>>the Theosophical Masters other than HPB, CWL and AB and that most of
> these
> >>>claims were made after HPB's death.
> >>>
> >>>Bailey, Prophet, Purucker, Judge, Tingley, Ballard, Chaney, etc. were
> some
> >>>of these names I first ran across. I learned about more from time to
> >>>time!!!!
> >>>
> >>>And after reading some of the material and books by and about these
> latter
> >>>named individuals, I was even more confused! Again there seemed to be a
> >>>hodgepodge of claims and teachings. What should I make of it all?
> >>>
> >>>I was at the point of not only being confused but also being somewhat
> >>>skeptical as a result of all the multitude of contradictiory and
> conflicting
> >>>claims and counterclaims.
> >>>
> >>>Then I noticed that all or almost all of the later claimants were basing
> >>>their claims on what Blavatsky had first claimed. That is, that she was
> in
> >>>contact with Master KH and M of the Occult Brotherhood.
> >>>
> >>>And many of these claimants more or less said they were following in
> >>>HPB's footsteps or that they were the newest messenger of the same
> >>>Theosophical Masters, however they might phrase it.
> >>>
> >>>So I wanted to know more about the "fountain source", that is HPB, her
> life,
> >>>her claims, her work, her writings and her teachings, and also about her
> >>>Teachers.
> >>>
> >>>If she was the one to start the ball rolling, so to speak, then it
> seemed
> >>>important to go back to the beginning.....what were the original claims,
> >>>teachings, etc. of H.P.B.?
> >>>
> >>>So over many years I took it upon myself to find out more about HPB, her
> >>>life, her claims, her work, her writings, her teachings.
> >>>
> >>>Did her Masters really exist? Or did she just make them up as Richard
> >>>Hodgson's report asserted. What was the evidence from HPB's life
> >>>that would help one to decide whether what she claimed was true and
> that she
> >>>was really in contact with these Masters or whether she was just a
> charlatan
> >>>or maybe some self-hallucinating psychic or victim of her own
> subconscious
> >>>mind or a tool of Satan and his demons, etc.
> >>>
> >>>I am by nature a very skeptical person but also I try to be open minded
> and
> >>>I also try to challenge my own assumptions and thinking.
> >>>
> >>>So I started collecting everything I could on Blavatsky. Writing to this
> >>>scholar or Theosophical writer, this Theosophical Society or that
> >>>Theosophical group, to this library or special collection, etc. etc.
> >>>
> >>>While I was doing all of that, I was also independently trying to
> educate
> >>>myself on world religions, mythologies, philosophies, modern day
> "cults" and
> >>>minority spiritual movements, spiritualism, parapsychology,
> transpersonal
> >>>pschology, mysticism, magic, ancient civilizations and a whole host of
> other
> >>>subjects since HPB of course was dealing with all these subjects
> directly or
> >>>indirectly in all of her writings. How could I understand what she was
> >>>writing about without having more background on the subjects she was
> dealing
> >>>with, quoting from, etc.?
> >>>
> >>>Moving on....
> >>>
> >>>Could HPB perform psychic phenomena? There was alot of seemingly
> conflicting
> >>>evidence. What was what? So I studied all of that.
> >>>
> >>>What evidence was there that her Masters existed? I ignored her own
> >>>testimony and looked for the testimony of people who meet her and knew
> her
> >>>and claimed they had encountered/met her Teachers. And what did the
> skeptic
> >>>say about these Masters? etc. etc.
> >>>
> >>>Plus at the same time, by studying all of this testimony about
> encounters
> >>>with Masters, by also looking at what HPB wrote about her Masters, who
> they
> >>>were, their nature, etc., one could start to construct from all of this
> a
> >>>better picture of who these Masters were suppose to be. Plus of course
> since
> >>>we had at
> >>>least 3 volumes of letters from the Masters KH and M and a few other
> adepts,
> >>>then what would these letters reveal about the supposed adepts, about
> what a
> >>>Master is or isn't, about the Occult Brotherhood supposedly in the
> >>>background, etc.
> >>>
> >>>The same with all of HPB's writings. What is this Theosophy that
> she is
> >>>writing about? From a careful reading and studying of all her writings,
> >>>could I come to an understanding and comprehension of this thing called
> >>>Theosophy?
> >>>
> >>>So this is where I have devoted a great deal of my time for many, many
> >>>years.
> >>>
> >>>In summary, I went back to Blavatsky and tried to see what were her
> claims,
> >>>her teachings, first of all simply to KNOW what they were!
> >>>
> >>>But of course I also wanted to know if what she claimed and taught was
> true,
> >>>valid etc. etc. or just the result of fraudulent activity, ravings of
> some
> >>>sincere but deluded kook, etc.
> >>>
> >>>And in my mind at least was the thought that with this foundation, then
> >>>maybe one might be in a somewhat better position to assess and evaluate
> the
> >>>claims made LATER by Judge, Besant, Leadbeater, Tingley, Purucker,
> Bailey,
> >>>etc.
> >>>
> >>>It was obvious at least to me at some point that if HPB was just a
> fraud and
> >>>her Masters really didn't exist, then obviously LATER claims were
> also
> >>>fraudulent and illusionary.
> >>>
> >>>But even if HPB's claims, etc. were valid and true, then what would
> or
> >>>should one make of all these later claimants?
> >>>
> >>>Daniel
> >>>http://hpb.cc
> >>>
> >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
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> >>
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> >
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