Re: theos-talk Re: Non-Sectarianism?? Atma-Vidya and Torch-bearer?
Jan 20, 2012 04:07 AM
by M. Sufilight
Dear Cass
My views are:
I am surprised. I thought you already knew about the 7 cavities in the brain - and especially from the previous reference I gave you.
Try to read the previous reference again - and of course the whole article :http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_059.htm
The following is my view on the matter. Now I do not claim that I am a Master. And the following are just my suggestions to those who really honestly seek to understand Blavatsky and her Atma-Vidya = Gupta-Vidya teachings. There are in these times most often no easy, fast, and quick fix method to understanding the fuld potential of Atma-Vidya - unless the Karmic pattern is ready for it. This is logical if the Law of Karma is known by the individual to be true. The Law of Karma might also prohibit an individual from learning various subjects - at least temporarily - even if it desperately seek to learn them. When we are - one - with the Law of Karma - everything is all right. The Law of Karma sprang from Parabrahm (as Bhagavad Gita says). So to be in harmony with the Law of Karma is to be in harmony with Parabrahm or Brahman.
Try to read Blavatsky' Collected Writings Vol. XII - and keep and eye on some of the articles in Vol. XII and XIV. And also Inner Group teachings - http://esotericinstructions.net/
Or the named "The Esoteric Papers of Madame Blavatsky". And Rama Prasad's "Natureâs Finer Forces" (But be aware of Blavatsky's warning on black magic and whie magic with regard to it...I gives this emphasis!)
Read all these references very very carefully and more than one time so it is digested. No superficial reading with yield much to most readers. - Others need the basic books by Blavatsky (like fi. The Key to Theosophy) and other basic books by other theosophists first before this study.
When you have done that - and still do not know what the 7 cavaties in the brain is - then ask again.
The following quote might help you and various readers better understand, that Blavatsky was not such a fool - as some would like her to be.
And from this text one aught to seek out - ALL - the references she gives - and - read the named books and the books referred to, more or less between the lines.
Then you will learn Atma-Vidya (which also is Occultism one way or the other). Samadhi is not reached without knowledge of Occultism and Occult practises.
"IS THE PRACTICE OF CONCENTRATION BENEFICENT?
Such is another question asked by members of the E.S.T. I answer: Genuine concentration and meditation, conscious and cautious, upon oneâs lower self in the light of the inner divine man and the PÃramitÃs, is an excellent thing. But to âsit for Yoga,â with only a superficial and
often distorted knowledge of the real practice, is almost invariably fatal; for ten to one the student will either develop mediumistic powers in himself or lose time and get disgusted both with practice and theory. Before one rushes into such a dangerous experiment and seeks to go beyond a minute examination of oneâs lower self and its walk in life, or that which is called in our phraseology, âThe Chelaâs Daily Life Ledger,â he would do well to learn at least the difference between the two aspects of âMagic,â the White or Divine, and the Black or Devilish, and assure himself that by âsitting for Yoga,â with no experience, as well as with no guide to show him the dangers, he does not cross daily and hourly the boundaries of the Divine to fall into the Satanic. Nevertheless, the way to learn the difference is very easy; one has only to remember that no esoteric truths entirely unveiled will ever be given in public print, in book or magazine.
In the Book of Rules I advise students to get certain works, as I shall have to refer to and quote from them repeatedly. I reiterate the advice and ask them to turn to The Theosophist [Vol. IX] of November, 1887. On page 98 they will find the beginning of an excellent article by Mr. RÃma Prasad on âNatureâs Finer Forces.â* The value of this work is not so much in its literary merit, though it gained its author the gold medal of The Theosophistââas in its exposition of tenets hitherto concealed in a rare and ancient Sanskrit work on Occultism. But Mr. RÃma Prasad is not an Occultist, only an excellent Sanskrit scholar, a university graduate and a man of remarkable intelligence. His Essays are almost entirely based on TÃntra works, which, if read indiscriminately by a tyro in Occultism, will lead to the practice of most unmitigated Black Magic. Now, since the difference of primary importance between Black and White Magic is simply the object with which it is practised, and that of secondary importance, the nature of the agents and ingredients used for the production of phenomenal results, the line of demarcation between the two is very, very thin. The danger is lessened only by the fact that every occult book, so called, is
ââââââââââ
* The references to âNatureâs Finer Forcesâ which follow have respect to the eight articles which appeared in the pages of The Theosophist [Vol. IX, November, 1887; February, May, June, August, 1888; Vol. X, October, November, 1888; March, 1889], and not to the fifteen essays and the translation of a chapter of the ÅaivÃgama, which are contained in the book called Natureâs Finer Forces. The ÅaivÃgama in its details is purely TÃntric, and nothing but harm can result from any practical following of its precepts. I would most strongly dissuade a member of the E.S. from attempting any of these HaËha-Yoga practices, for he will either ruin himself entirely, or throw himself so far back that it will be almost impossible to regain the lost ground in this incarnation. The translation referred to has been considerably expurgated, and even now is hardly fit for publication. It recommends Black Magic of the worst kind, and is the very antipodes of spiritual RÃja-Yoga. Beware, I say.
ââââââââââ
occult only in a certain sense; that is, the text is occult merely by reason of its blinds. The symbolism has to be thoroughly understood before the reader can get at the correct sense of the teaching. Moreover, it is never complete, its several portions each being under a different title and each containing a portion of some other work; so that without a key to these no such work divulges the whole truth. Even the famous ÅaivÃgama, on which âNatureâs Finer Forcesâ is based, âis nowhere to be found in complete form,â as the author tells us. Thus, like all others, it treats of only five Tattvas instead of the seven in esoteric teachings.
Now, the Tattvas being simply the substratum of the seven forces of nature, how can this be? There are seven forms of Prakriti, as Kapilaâs SÃnkhya, [the] Vishnu-PurÃna and other works teach. Prakriti is nature, matter (primordial and elemental); therefore logic demands that the Tattvas should be also seven. For, whether Tattvas mean, as Occultism teaches, âforces of natureâ or, as the learned RÃma Prasad explains, âthe substance out of which the universe is formedâ and âthe power by which it is sustained,â it is all the same; they are force and matter, Prakriti. And if the forms, or rather planes, of the latter are seven, then its forces must be seven also; that is, the degrees of the solidity of matter and the degrees of the power that ensouls it must go hand in hand. âThe Universe is made out of the Tattva, it is sustained by the Tattva, and it disappears into the Tattva,â says Åiva, as quoted from the ÅaivÃgama in âNatureâs Finer Forces.â This settles the question; if Prakriti is septenary, then the Tattvas must be seven, for, as said, they are both substance and force, or atomic matter and the spirit that ensouls it.
This is explained here to enable the student to read between the lines of the so-called occult articles on Sanskrit philosophy, by which they must not be misled. Every Esotericist who reads The Theosophist must remember how bitterly Subba Row, a learned VedÃntin Brahman, arose against the septenary principles in man. He knew well I had no right to and dared not to explain in The Theosophist, a public magazine, the real numeration, and simply took advantage of my enforced silence. The doctrine of the seven Tattvas (the principles of the universe as in man) was held in great sacredness, and therefore secrecy, by the Brahmans in days of old, by whom now the teaching is almost forgotten. Yet it is taught to this day in the schools beyond the Himalayan Range, but it is now hardly remembered or heard of in India except through rare Initiates. The policy has been changed gradually; Chelas began to be taught the broad outlines of it, and at the advent of the T.S. in India, in 1879, I was ordered to teach it in its exoteric
form to one or two, and obeyed. To you who are pledged, I give it out esoterically.
Knowing that some of the members of the E.S.T. try to follow a system of Yoga in their own fashion, guided in this only by the rare hints they find in Theosophical books and magazines, which must naturally be incomplete, I chose one of the best expositions ever written upon ancient occult works, âNatureâs Finer Forces,â in order to point out how very easily one can be misled by their blinds."
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_055.htm
STRICTLY PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL
INSTRUCTION NO. V
" The Spinal Cord puts into connection the Brain and the Generative Organs, and this connection is further strengthened by the Sympathetic System. The Cord, however, gives an open passage, which opens into the important cavities of the Brain. Excitement of the Generative Organs sends up impulses and subtle essences to the Brain by way of the spinal canals. Now the three vital airs are ruled by the Will, and Will and Desire are the higher and lower aspects of one and the same thing. These airs, as said, play in the canals, and hence the importance of their absolute purity. For if they soil the vital airs energized by the Will, disease results at the best, Black Magic at the worst. Therefore all sexual intercourse is forbidden to the students of Practical Occultism."
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_059.htm
(That is why so many fail - and - fall on the path...No doubt can be raised about it. Sexual energies - are beautiful - but on higher stages certainly Luciferic...)
Try to read all the above (and the link on Rama Prasad) - and - before you proceed also the warning by Blavatsky - about the difference between black magic and white magic.
Then read The Theosophist [Vol. IX] of November, 1887. On page 98 - and - even Rama Prasad's "Natureâs Finer Forces" (although be aware of its negative Occult implications.)
Some is not to be given out openly --- but shared --- in more closed circles - as Blavatsky says. And some of it has to be oral teachings - which cannot be explained very well in writing at all - due to the extra sensory communications and higher mental communications involved.
If the above words by Blavatsky are true - they must be very important indeed. And it could certainly also be the reason why so few persons on this planet ever have mastered the higher learning and true Samadhi - and not the daily superficial New Age versions - for instance with their 13 crosses on a church-bell with a piece of chalk and fashion-mitras and all that nonsense.
All the above are just my views. And I do not know anything but - shall we say - the ABC of the above, so bear with me.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Non-Sectarianism?? Atma-Vidya and Torch-bearer?
What the seven cavities of the brain have to do with atma vidya
Cass
>________________________________
> From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@1AhUZw-zN6ATFhPdyTiscIyzgjAxRiyletw3MChjG0oS49d2WSCRLQHcj0tz8bF144i5gz0SvRuuagZGRnhCwxACz0E.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Friday, 20 January 2012 11:50 AM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Non-Sectarianism?? Atma-Vidya and Torch-bearer?
>
>
>
>Sure Cass...
>Would you be so kind and elaborate on the intentions with this question? I certainly also used my own words - words are not something anyone owns - as far as I know. Smile.
>What are you saying and what is it you cannot follow?
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Cass Silva
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 12:59 AM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Non-Sectarianism?? Atma-Vidya and Torch-bearer?
>
>Sorry but I can't follow your line of thought. Can't you respond using your own words?
>Cass
>
>>________________________________
>> From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@1AhUZw-zN6ATFhPdyTiscIyzgjAxRiyletw3MChjG0oS49d2WSCRLQHcj0tz8bF144i5gz0SvRuuagZGRnhCwxACz0E.yahoo.invalid>
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Friday, 20 January 2012 12:49 AM
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Non-Sectarianism?? Atma-Vidya and Torch-bearer?
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear Cass and friends
>>
>>My views are:
>>
>>Actually these words was written by B. P. Wadia (BPW) and not by HPB (Blavatsky) in the article.
>>( See http://wisdomworld.org/additional/StudiesInTheSecretDoctrine/AltruismOfTheSD.html )
>>
>>But nice thoughts indeed in that quote.
>>They do however relate more to the science on Atma-Vidya (which requires altruism) than to the subject about Sectarianism - unless you prefer Sectarianism in an euphemistic manner.
>>So I changed the name of this thread - a bit.
>>
>>____________________
>>
>>M. Sufilight says - seeking to provoke the Buddhic element in the readers:
>>Unselfish Love is limitless and has no boundaries.
>>All human beings seek it no matter what religion or faith.
>>The Divinity of all Humanity and all religions is therefore in essence the - exact same.
>>
>>See good, do good, think good and be good. First be....... Or be-yond.
>>All the time - every day - always.
>>
>>Unselfish love and compassion resides in the innermost chamber of the Heart.
>>It is a Life-Force.
>>It is also the fuel and Fire as the fiery Sakti energy - also called Fohat or Yin (as in old Taoism) or Kwan Yin or Wang-Mu (the Peach Goddess of the Kuen-Lun Mountains - perhaps a later distorted Apple Goddess in the Garden of Eden).
>>This energy burns inside the innermost chamber of the Heart. Let it burn and shine. Burning compassion.
>>And Divinity is compassion - and that compassion is omnipresent. Present in past, present, and future.
>>Take care of it - and - it takes care of you - and all and everything.
>>
>>_________________
>>
>>I could perhaps help us all by giving the following quote ...from the Esoteric Instructions...
>>This is about the teachings on the seven cavities in the Brain - and not the ordinary 7 chakras taught about in many a New Age hype sect these days.
>>And how the Heart corresponds to the Brain, and why the many ikons in the West and the East with Sages having halo's are not just taken out of thin air.
>>This is an esoteric psychological teaching.
>>
>>"THE BRAIN
>>The Brain, taken as an organ of Consciousness, serves as the vehicle on the objective plane of the Lower Manas, which works upon its material molecules in a way hereafter to be explained. Its subdivisions correspond to, and are the organs of, the subdivisions of the Lower Manas, its convolutions are formed by thought, the activity of the thinking Principle building up more and more complicated convolutions.
>>
>>There are seven cavities in the Brain which during life are empty, in the ordinary sense of the word. In reality, they are filled with ÃkÃÃa, each cavity having its own color, according to the state of Consciousness in which you are. (The colors are only visible, of course, to the purified vision.) These cavities are called in Occultism the âSeven Harmonies,â the scale of the Divine Harmonies, and it is in these that visions must be reflected, if they are to remain in the Brain-memory. These are the parts of the Brain which receive impressions from the Heart, and enable the memory of the Heart to be impressed on the memory of the Brain.
>>
>>The fourth of these cavities is the Pituitary Body, which corresponds with Manas-Antaskarana, the bridge to the Higher Intelligence; it contains various essences. The fifth cavity is the Third Ventricle, empty during life except for pulsating light, though filled with a liquid after death. The sixth cavity is the Pineal Gland, also hollow and empty during life; the granules are precipitated after death. The Pineal Gland corresponds with Manas until it is touched by the vibrating light of KundalinÃ, which proceeds from Buddhi, and then it becomes Buddhi-Manas. When Manas is united to Buddhi, or when Buddhiââand therefore Ãtman alsoââis centred in Manas, it acts in the three higher cavities, radiating and sending forth a halo of light, and this sometimes becomes visible in the case of very holy persons. The fires are always playing round the Pineal Gland; but when Kundalinà illuminates them for a brief instant, the whole universe is seen. This
>is what occurs occasionally in deep sleep when the third eye opens. And such opening is good for Manas, who profits by it, even though the Lower Man is not then reached and therefore cannot remember. The seventh cavity is the synthesis of all, the cavity of the skull itself, as filled with ÃkÃÃa (see Diagram V). This corresponds with the Ãtmic Aura, the sacred Auric Egg.
>>
>>Perception, brain perception, is located in the aura of the Pineal Gland, while the Pineal Gland itself, illuminated, corresponds with Divine Thought. The Pituitary Body is the organ per se of the psychic plane. Pure psychic vision* is caused by the molecular motion of this body, which is directly connected with the optic nerve, and thus affects the sight, and gives rise to hallucinations. Its motion may readily cause flashes of light, seen within the head, similar to those that may be obtained on pressing the eyeballs, and so causing molecular motion in the optic nerve. When molecular action is set up in the Pituitary Body these flashes are seen, and further action gives psychic vision, as similar motion in the Pineal Gland gives Spiritual Clairvoyance. "
>>http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_059.htm
>>
>>Now what Blavatsky call Occultism is by some called Esoterism, Esoteric Psychology, Esoteric Heartflow, or Heartflow-Psychology and similar. Or the science on Atma-Vidya in a broad and non-dead-letter sense.
>>To avoid dead-letter thinking can be helpful in activating the Buddhic element in man - and the fiery energy in the innermost chamber of the Heart - burning Compassion.
>>________
>>
>>A SHORT QUOTE FROM A MEETING IN BLAVATSKY'S ESOTERIC SECTION
>>
>>From the central Inner Group - Teachings - august 20th, 1890 - written by A. L. Cleather:
>>"Warning: H.P.B. expleined the extreme seriousness of the Pledge taken by members of the Inner Group. Occultism must be everything or nothing. This pledge once taken resignatin avails nothing; its breach means the most terrible consequences in the present life and in future generations. It was a more serious pledge than the voluntary initial pledge given by the Chela to the Master; for the Master might make allowances and forgive. But this was taken in the prescence of all the manifestations, the emanations, that surround the Higher Self, and all these would be against the breaker of the pledge.
>>
>>(Ques.) C. W. asked if any had broken the pledge" (E.S.)
>>
>>(Ans.) Yes, but HPB would not say which. Some had kept it, som not; the breaches had been involuntary. This new pledge would colour all the life here and hereafter in all future bodies. Those who kept on the right way would be helped; they need not fear. If they were faithful, no external thing could harm them. But each must be sure of himself before taking it, as there was no going back. The responsibility is terrible and cannot be evaded. Once taken, the pledge can never be recalled.
>>http://blavatskyarchives.com/inner/innerno1.htm
>>
>>So...again, HPB says: "These are the parts of the Brain which receive impressions from the Heart, and enable the memory of the Heart to be impressed on the memory of the Brain."
>>If the heart of compassion is all right there will never be any broken pledge. The memory of the Heart is of course not to be confused with the memory of the Emotions, as most of us New Age beginners tend to do.
>>
>>__________________
>>
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>To heal one self and others requires that one care for one self and others.
>>To do this knowledge and wisdom i necessary.
>>A little caring for others is healing. And a little Knowledge and Wisdom is healing. Then one heals.
>>We can all do that. And therefore we are all healers, big and small.
>>A real healer is known on the breadth of his or hers vision and the capacity - and not primarily on how large a wallet he or she has or the level of blind faith generated, etc., etc.
>>Without any real vision - what good are you for?
>>
>>All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?
>>------- Gautama Buddha
>>
>>This is psychological change - no doubt about that.
>>
>>H. P. Blavatsky said:
>>"Let not thy "Heaven-born," merged in the sea of Maya, break from the Universal Parent (SOUL), but let the fiery power retire into the inmost chamber, the chamber of the Heart [The inner chamber of the Heart, called in Sanskrit Brahma poori. The "fiery power" is Kundalini.] and the abode of the World's Mother (24).
>>Then from the heart that Power shall rise into the sixth, the middle region, the place between thine eyes, when it becomes the breath of the ONE-SOUL, the voice which filleth all, thy Master's voice.
>>'Tis only then thou canst become a "Walker of the Sky" (25) who treads the winds above the waves, whose step touches not the waters.
>>Before thou set'st thy foot upon the ladder's upper rung, the ladder of the mystic sounds, thou hast to hear the voice of thy inner GOD* in seven manners."
>>(And in the innermost center of the Heart resides that life force which we call Fohat - the Fire burning in the Heart, the heart of compassion. ----(24) The "Power" and the "World-mother" are names given to Kundalini â one of the mystic "Yogi powers." It is Buddhi considered as an active instead of a passive principle (which it is generally, when regarded only as the vehicle, or casket of the Supreme Spirit ATMA). It is an electro-spiritual force, a creative power which when aroused into action can as easily kill as it can create. (25) The Sky-walker: Keshara or "sky-walker" or "goer." As explained in the 6th. Adhyaya of that king of mystic works the Dhyaneswari â the body of the Yogi becomes as one formed of the wind; as "a cloud from which limbs have sprouted out," after which â "he (the Yogi) beholds the things beyond the seas and stars; he hears the language of the Devas and comprehends it, and perceives what is passing in the mind of the
>ant." )
>>(The Voice of Silence, p. 9-10 + footnotes.)
>>
>>Follow thy Heart. Face the perceived evil. Fight to the end. And finish the game of the Manvanatara.
>>
>>All these words are - aimed at awakening the Buddhic element in man - and psychological change in the individual.
>>And written out of compassion - on the level of the writer.
>>
>>But again, all the above are just my views.
>>
>>M. Sufilight
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Cass Silva
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 12:42 AM
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Non-Sectarianism??
>>
>>Altruism engendered by the lower mind and energized by the lower devotion is not true altruism.
>>
>>The mind free from attacks of kama is energized by the compassionate reason or Buddhi, and thus wedded is ensouled by the Self of Creative-Power, which is the true doer of deeds. Then comes into manifestation the higher altruism in which charity is just and not merely kind, altruism which enables man to discard the crutch of dependence and to stand on his own feet in self-trust. HPB
>>
>>Cass
>>
>>>________________________________
>>> From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@1AhUZw-zN6ATFhPdyTiscIyzgjAxRiyletw3MChjG0oS49d2WSCRLQHcj0tz8bF144i5gz0SvRuuagZGRnhCwxACz0E.yahoo.invalid>
>>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>>Sent: Thursday, 19 January 2012 3:58 AM
>>>Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Non-Sectarianism??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Dear Mark Jaqua and friends
>>>
>>>My views are:
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"Well, Morten, Just more of your multi-page BS, and the "same ol', same ol'" fog screen and dissimuilation (which is a psychological term also, I see, as well as referring to arguement-style), and avoiding main points."
>>>
>>>M. Sufilight says:
>>>Lets keep a civil tone of voice.
>>>I am open-minded on the idea that you might be able to learn me something - provided that you are able to forward some examples that will make your view solid. And not only assertions.
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"I forgot to add, among the other ignored points, that your ersatz "non-sectarian" stance is anti-Discrimination - Discrimination being perhaps the greatest developed attribute for the spiritual path - and productive of the same type of paralysis of the reason, discrimination, that I've seen in the Alice Bailey writing style and books."
>>>
>>>M. Sufilight says:
>>>I am not sure I understand what you are actually saying here. I am open-minded on the idea that you might be able to learn me something - provided that you are able to forward some examples that will make your view solid. And not only assertions.
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>"I identify with Blavatsky Theosophy, and consider you an enemy of this view, or rather Know it."
>>>
>>>M. Sufilight says:
>>>I am open-minded on the idea that you might be able to learn me something - provided that you are able to forward some examples that will make your view solid. And not only assertions.
>>>
>>>You wrote:
>>>Oh.... I am not your "friend."
>>>
>>>M. Sufilight says:
>>>And you seek to promote altruism?
>>>
>>>I hold it to be true, that an open-minded, well-intentioned and well-meaning person with regard to Blavatsky's theosophy - hardly - can be called a direct enemy of Blavatsky theosophy. Try to ask other members of Theos-talk forum who has been here for 10 years or more whether I am in opposition to Blavatsky or whether I seek to promulgate her teachings. I think they will agree that I in fact seek to promote Blavatsky's teachings - above and before - many other teachings; - to the best of my ability of course. - As I see it: One thing is my personal views - another is my organisational views.
>>>
>>>Here is my private website - with my own personal views (not the organisational views):
>>>(I have, for instance, on it the first full translation of the Key to Theosophy, 2. ed. 1890, - in the Danish Language - frrely available.)
>>>http://www.global-theosophy.net/
>>>Here is the forum I have created - based on the Original Programe for the Theosophical Society given in 1875-1891.
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk-heart/
>>>
>>>Maybe we just will have to agree on disagreeing, well perhaps even it only is - apparently.
>>>
>>>M. Sufilight
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: Mark Jaqua
>>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:14 PM
>>>Subject: theos-talk Re: Non-Sectarianism??
>>>
>>>Well, Morten, Just more of your multi-page BS, and the "same ol', same ol'" fog screen and dissimuilation (which is a psychological term also, I see, as well as referring to arguement-style), and avoiding main points.
>>>I forgot to add, among the other ignored points, that your ersatz "non-sectarian" stance is anti-Discrimination - Discrimination being perhaps the greatest developed attribute for the spiritual path - and productive of the same type of paralysis of the reason, discrimination, that I've seen in the Alice Bailey writing style and books.
>>>I identify with Blavatsky Theosophy, and consider you an enemy of this view, or rather Know it.
>>>You disagree with all my viewpoints, or ignore them, and I hope I have nothing else to add.
>>>Oh.... I am not your "friend."
>>>
>>>- jake j.
>>>
>>>---------------------
>>>>1c. Re: Non-Sectarianism??
>>>Posted by: "M. Sufilight" global-theosophy@1AhUZw-zN6ATFhPdyTiscIyzgjAxRiyletw3MChjG0oS49d2WSCRLQHcj0tz8bF144i5gz0SvRuuagZGRnhCwxACz0E.yahoo.invalid kidhr7
>>>Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:44 am ((PST))
>>>
>>>>Dear Mark and friends
>>>
>>>>My views are:
>>>
>>>>Aah come on Mark Jaqua....lighten up...
>>>I am a bit sad to read your post.
>>>When I read it I think there has occurred a huge misunderstanding with regard to absorb what I actually intend with what I am writing.
>>>
>>>>To me it is just Another directly personal attack on me here at Theos-talk.
>>>We are almost getting to a time where I am beginning to ask you whether you can buy me a tree - so you can hang me on it like they did with another man a few thousand years ago?
>>>
>>>>But the indefatigable fool I am - I will seek to write you an answer - using time so to clearly avoid any confusions about where I stand in all this...
>>>
>>>>Mark Jaqua wrote:
>>>"I find you just dishonest** in your arguements, and lacking in substance"
>>>
>>>>M. Sufilight says:
>>>I beg you pardon?
>>>In what sense am I dishonest? What do you know about my intentions with what I write? Nothing?
>>>Please provide example in the name of compassion instead of merely barking at me.
>>>
>>>>1) I have thousands of times said - that the views I forward are merely my own views. I have written this in almost all my latest 100 posts and even for years at this forum - and do it especially so to avoid being attacked with being a fanatic - which I am not. I am a willing listener and Open-Minded. And I do hope others will respect that. And I do also ask questions.
>>>>2) If I by accident ignore questions or ignore original points - then please tell me about it - clearly showing me what I have ignored. Else I cannot help any of you. And after all we are here to help each other. Are we not?
>>>Calling this dishonest you may - but really Mark Jaqua - where did you get the idea from that I am not well-intentioned?
>>>>3) I have many times clearly said I am seeking to promote Altruism - through a non-sectarian organisational frame - (without self-elected leaders dragging their doctrine down on other ordinary members) - where each member can have their own sectarian views - (all humans have in fact) - with freedom of thought - and where members can avoid being coerced into a more or less sectarian view of some - self-elected "Eminent" - leaders or group of leaders choices. And I have also said that I myself personally - both spiritually and scientifically - agree with a lot on what H. P. Blavatsky wrote - and especially the words in the Secret Doctrine. But these are merely my personal views - and - why should I not keep and Open Mind and promote a non-Sectarian exchange on how to promote Altruism.
>>>>--- Of course one aught to see Blavatsky writings in context and relate it to our present day. The Nebular theory mentioned by Blavatsky - through more than 100 pages in the Secret Doctrine - is for instance not gone more than 120 years later. (Just see Wikipedia on this.) This despite Blavatsky's and some 19th century scientists effort on putting it where it belongs. But I am not only considering Blavatasky's teachings these days. I am interested in a number of authors within the science on Psychology - because I like the study of science. The synthesis of science, philosophy and religion - wisdom teaching - as I see it. - I certainly respect other teachers views and their intend to promote altruism - but when they fail seen from my perspective - I think it fair to tell others about it.
>>>4)
>>>>Mark Jaqua wrote:
>>>"Your ghost-viewpoint of "total non-sectarianism" does not exist in the real world, and anyone truly trying to instigate it would be a _Monster_ without a soul, with no genuine viewpoints or principles of his own, but persuing some vague ego-born goal."
>>>
>>>>M. Sufilight says:
>>>Can you prove it?
>>>>-Since the Theosophical Society originally was Absolutely Non-Sectarian as mentioned in the Constitution and Rules of the Society in 1875-1891 - I see no problems with that. - You are in fact in the above saying that the Theosophical Society as it originally was created - is false and fake. Or else I misunderstand you.
>>>
>>>>The Non-sectarian issue - is as I see it not understood by you. If you understand the difference between an Absolutely Non-Sectarian organisation - and - an Sectarian one ---- I think you will agee that the non-sectarian one easily can have study groups dealing with a subject the members of the given group prefer to contemplate and learn about. ---- What In am saying is that a non-sectarian theosophical organisation - is something the Boston Theosophical organisation for some years sought to promote - and in fact had success in doing very much if I am not mistaken - well as far as I have learned about it. --- Some years ago I rejected their organisational view - but I have since then learned that I was wrong. And I regret my mistake. - Because to promote an Absolutely non-sectarian organisation - where various doctrines can be compared and exchanged upon - and learned about must be better than a Sectarian one - especially if you want to promote
>>Altruism - wholeheartedly and sincere - and agree that psychological change will occur when promoting Altruism - and that Subtle Mind Control aught to be avoided. Do you understand the term "Subtle Mind Control"? (See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/57019 - Part 1 to 3, - 11th and 13th of November, 2011.)
>>>Those who want their Sect or sectarian Guru - and find Sectarian altruism to be altruism - they have something - as I see it - else to do first - and - I am unable to help them with my view - at least until they become more Open-Minded. - A non-Sectarian organisation will of course be for everyone - because not all persons would like to promote Altruism Wholeheartedly. You may seek to prove me wrong, but this is my view on it.
>>>
>>>>Mark Jaqua wrote:
>>>"For instance, in HPB's day Spiritualism was a large sect, with a large portion of its members believing astral shells and bhuts were "spirit guides" and inviting their presence and even obsession, and developing mediumship. In Blavatsky Theosophy this philosophy is regarded as extremely harmful and productive of assured future suffering in whatever individual adapts it. You would have in the name of "total non-sectarianism" the Theosophical Society and "The Theosophist" be a vehicle for the promotion of such views (which Blavatsky devoted a book-worth of material disputing) and thus a vehicle of producing suffering. Anyone knowing the truth of the matter would be a _Monster_ to promote such teachings in the name of an ersatz "non-sectarianism," if he is convinced he knows better. Are you such a monster? Other similarly harmful doctrines would apply today."
>>>
>>>>M. Sufilight says:
>>>You misunderstand very much my intentions as far as I read your words in the above.
>>>Blavatsky theosophy was only a part of the Original Programe of the Theosophical Society. And what I am at is a more open Society like in 1875-1891 - merely adding - that the times are different - and that the Science on Psychology today 120 years later is recognized in humanity - and that this science - actually - on Psychological Change need to be added to the organisational Objects.
>>>The Theosophical Society in 1875-1891 - was as said in its Constitution and Rules Absoluetely Non-Sectarian (See here: http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/Rules_1890.htm)
>>>
>>>>So the answer is of course No in various respects.
>>>Spiritualism is not be a part of my own agenda - simply because of the Altruistic and non-sectarian aims I seek to promote. This is my just personal view. --- Now the organisational view: People might study Spiritualism within the Society I consider - and compare it with other ideologies. - But to promote Spiritualism as a take over idea - and as a consequence thereof - go and remove the Non-sectarian organisational frame - I will not agree upon myself - unless I can be proven wrong on this same frames value. And that is the difference: No leaders or teacher are allowed to promote a teaching on behalf of the members in such a Society as I am considering - and - something which in fact was stated in the Original rules for the Theosophical Society. - It is, as I se it, important to distinguish the difference between my personal view (and others) - and - organisational view with the aim of givning all their say about the meaning of life - so that we learn
>>from each other - and promote altruism. - AND - if a teaching is clearly in opposition to Altruism - It can for good reasons not be accepted as given emphasis in a positive manner by members claiming they promote altruism while they with the other hand promote such a thing - within the version of a Theosophical Society I have in mind. - Spiritualism could be included - but this will have to be decided upon - within a such given non-sectarian Society. Altruism requires tolerance - if you are not tolerant - and - seek altruism Wholeheartedly - (and go and claim that you can walk on the water etc.) then a non-sectarian theosophical society is nothing for you. The Theosophical Society in Adyar in for instance selling the books by Alice A. Bailey - even when they promote political activities - and - a Savior Invocation Programe. - This is telling me that the TS is very much still a non-sectarian organisation. But as said before the TS's organisational frame
>>lack - today year 2012 compared to 1875-1891 - something vital with respect to certain non-Sectarian issues mentioned earlier on by me. - But then again views differ. I am Open for suggestions.
>>>
>>>>THE DEFINITION OF THE TERM NON-SECTARIAN given in TS in 1890:
>>>Yes. There are a lot of confusion about the term "non-sectarian" these days. It is in fact used as a buzz word by various religious groups and sects these days - so to avoid bad publicity or because they really do think that they are "Non-Sectarian" . The problem is that the term - has several different definitions - and the English language lack better words to use unless one invent new ones. And perhaps one aught to do this.
>>>
>>>>The term Non-Sectarian is defined in the Theosohical Society's Original Programe given in 1875-1891 - as I see it like this:
>>>"The Theosophical Society is absolutely unsectarian, and no assent to any formula of belief, faith or creed shall be required as a qualification of membership; but every applicant and member must lie in sympathy with the effort to create the nucleus of an Universal Brotherhood of Humanity."
>>>.......
>>>>"1. Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society In political disputes shall be immediately expelled.
>>>
>>>>2. No Fellow, Officer, or Council of the Theosophical Society, or of any Section or Branch thereof, shall promulgate or maintain any doctrines being that advanced, or advocated by the Society."
>>>(The 1890 constitution and rules for TS --- http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/Rules_1890.htm)
>>>
>>>>I am saying:
>>>>When you remove some of the above - you - remove the cornerstone of the Theosophical Society - and is main Object - namely - to promote Altruism (ie. the same is this phrase: To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or colour.) - These are my views - and I think with good reason - when you compare this with other more loose definitions - and - the view promoted by Exit-Counsellors - or what we call Anti-cult psychologists and their MUTUAL scientific theories on this subject. The latter today year 2012 are - interestingly - being very much in agreement with the above TS definition. At least among the most well-known and most respected within this sicentific (not belief) field.
>>>
>>>______________________
>>>
>>>>Here are my own definitions at present again - given Nov. 11th, 2011 here at Theos-talk:
>>>SECT = A religious organisation or group, which has a leader or a group of
>>>leaders who forwards a religious doctrine or teaching on behalf of its members.
>>>A religious organisation or group which avoids emphasis on the science of Subtle
>>>Mind Control. A religious organisation or group which refuse comparative
>>>studying or avoids it carefully or de-emphasizes it or does not mention it all.
>>>A religious organisation or group where the A religious organisation or group
>>>which most often disallows criticism or do not respond to it.
>>>
>>>>CULT = A religious organisation or group, which has a leader or a group of
>>>leaders who forwards a religious doctrine or teaching on behalf of its members.
>>>A religious organisation or group which avoids emphasis on the science of Subtle
>>>Mind Control. A religious organisation or group which refuse comparative
>>>studying or avoids it carefully or de-emphasizes it or does not mention it all.
>>>A religious organisation or group where the A religious organisation or group
>>>which most often disallows criticism or do not respond to it. - The same as a
>>>sect, but where the religious organisation or group much more clearly and
>>>strongly destroys or hurts various individuals health and well-being
>>>psychologically, mentally, or physically etc. etc.
>>>
>>>>DOGMA and DOGMATISM = Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a
>>>religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to
>>>be disputed, doubted, or diverged from. Those who forward such a teaching can be
>>>called dogmatic. Condemnation or worse is a part of dogmatic teachings. Murder
>>>might even be advocated to oppose those who by the leader or leaders of such a
>>>religious organisation er considered enemies of it. Those who are open to other
>>>views without ever using condemnation or worse, or similar even if they disagree
>>>with the dogmatic views given by the religious organisation are not dogmatic.
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/57015
>>>
>>>>All the above are as said just my views. I do not claim my self infallible and are open for improvements and suggestions.
>>>
>>>>M. Sufilight
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Mark Jaqua
>>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:59 PM
>>>Subject: theos-talk Non-Sectarianism??
>>>
>>>> Morten,
>>>> I find you just dishonest** in your arguements, and lacking in substance. You dissimulate, attack questions on minor points and ignore the original points and questions, pretend not to understand what the person states, refuse common-sense statements accepted by nearly all, and leave waves of confusion in your wake instead of answers. In responding to you, one is actually dealing with a basic psychological issue rather than a philosophic one. You have no practical viewpoints, and seem to argue against every other view.
>>>> Your ghost-viewpoint of "total non-sectarianism" does not exist in the real world, and anyone truly trying to instigate it would be a _Monster_ without a soul, with no genuine viewpoints or principles of his own, but persuing some vague ego-born goal.
>>>> For instance, in HPB's day Spiritualism was a large sect, with a large portion of its members believing astral shells and bhuts were "spirit guides" and inviting their presence and even obsession, and developing mediumship. In Blavatsky Theosophy this philosophy is regarded as extremely harmful and productive of assured future suffering in whatever individual adapts it. You would have in the name of "total non-sectarianism" the Theosophical Society and "The Theosophist" be a vehicle for the promotion of such views (which Blavatsky devoted a book-worth of material disputing) and thus a vehicle of producing suffering. Anyone knowing the truth of the matter would be a _Monster_ to promote such teachings in the name of an ersatz "non-sectarianism," if he is convinced he knows better. Are you such a monster? Other similarly harmful doctrines would apply today.
>>>> I've noticed from time to time "Non-denominational" Churches, perhaps with a Cross on the front of them. They would call themselves "non-sectarian" among the thousand christian sects. Do they mean non-sectarian Buddhism, Hinduism, Sihkism, Jainism, Jewish ? No, they mean non-sectarian Christianity. 'Just as Blavatsky's "non-sectarianism" applied to non-sectarian theosophical field - i.e. a non-sectarian looking for the _truth_ wherever it may be found, not a non-sectarian inclusion of Everything, error included. This is the de facto non-sectarianism meant by Blavatsky, non-sectarian truth.
>>>> - jake j.
>>>
>>>> ** dishonest - for instance, _knowing_ I am referring to "Blavatsky Theosophy," which is a specific school of thought, and refusing to acknowledge my obvious meaning, and diverting to the Vaughan universal and non-specific definition of the term.
>>>
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