Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
Jan 19, 2012 08:40 PM
by Cass Silva
I regard her and Plato as someone with something to say and worth listening to.
Cass
>________________________________
> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@KhYu6BKL64HouIEkVzdApP_vg-KVkhonWosxQm3iKe5Yt5thKYhajwGADkLrzB5tQu3NKKus587yaiGqwaw.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Friday, 20 January 2012 11:55 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>
>Â
>Whether the conditional was true or not (in the sense that there might not have been any plan whatsoever), she might have made such statements to inspire her following to do its best on behalf of the Theosophical cause and thereby increase the survivability of the TS and her own posthumous reputation.
>
>Itâs also possible (and this is an argument from a different corner) that esoterically oriented Krishnamurtians might regard 1) The TS as having been viable enough before the carnage of WWI to start the WT Project and 2) might regard HPB as something of a prophet.
>
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M. Sufilight
>Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 5:57 PM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>Yes. Nice to see that we help each other.
>
>But a question to the following words - beginning with the word "if" ---:
>"if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years"
>
>M. Sufilight asks:
>Can we wholeheartedly and with the hand on our heart say that - this has been a success?
>I think not.
>And on top of that - historical research has recently said that the statistics for the last century with regard to the number of persons killed in wars - are far more bloody than any of the other past 20 centuries - when looking at percentages.
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Govert Schuller
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:56 PM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>Youâre welcome. 8^)
>
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Augoeides-222@GZPNKSD8OlUgMtNTuTYGqAE1zC7GC9DD6UZ5dlllh9hD3UKAl-MRt1zmhs1wrBSj9Uk-lKmDiP9-p4dXYAIR.yahoo.invalid <mailto:Augoeides-222%40comcast.net>
>Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 3:13 PM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>Daniel,
>
>Thanks very much for that delei ghtful qoute, you alway can be relied upon.
>
>Joh
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: "Govert Schuller" <schuller@KhYu6BKL64HouIEkVzdApP_vg-KVkhonWosxQm3iKe5Yt5thKYhajwGADkLrzB5tQu3NKKus587yaiGqwaw.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:14:28 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>Regarding the âTorch-bearer of truthâ Blavatsky wrote in 1889:
>
>âIf the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general condition of menâs minds and hearts will have been improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said, their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature ready to menâs hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is
given, could accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, with out any of these advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now!â
>
>H.P. Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy (London: Theosophical Publishing Co., 1889), pp. 306-307.
>
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Augoeides-222@GZPNKSD8OlUgMtNTuTYGqAE1zC7GC9DD6UZ5dlllh9hD3UKAl-MRt1zmhs1wrBSj9Uk-lKmDiP9-p4dXYAIR.yahoo.invalid <mailto:Augoeides-222%40comcast.net> <mailto:Augoeides-222%40comcast.net>
>Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 12:04 PM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>Hmmm,
>
>Some one please refresh my memory here. I only recall Madame Blavatsky saying that once every centur y for certain in the last quarter a messenger of the Brotherhood would present some where in some form. Where does she label the m as a "torch bearer"? I s there a quote?
>
>John
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: "Govert Schuller" < schuller@KhYu6BKL64HouIEkVzdApP_vg-KVkhonWosxQm3iKe5Yt5thKYhajwGADkLrzB5tQu3NKKus587yaiGqwaw.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 9:20:15 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>âdo we need a torch bearer - or has HPB left the torch through her works?â
>
>If you read HPBâs relevant passage it is clear that she presents the TS and the Theosophical worldview as preparatory to the coming of a Torch-bearer. She presented herself as a messenger restating the Ancient Wisdom. As such she can be perceived as indeed a torch-bearer, but not the âTorch-bearer of truth.â
>
>Either HPB knew something was planned by the Masters and seeded the minds of the Theosophists with a future vision, or she made it all up to provide the TS a grand, but illusionary, mission and vision by which it would be able to endure and survive any attack and refutation. Similar statements by her to that effect were her confidence that science would be theosophyâs best ally in providing evidence for its truths and that every last quarter of a century somebody would restate the ancient wisdom.
>
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:04 PM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>Govert, do we need a torch bearer - or has HPB left the torch through her works?
>Cass
>Theosophy is neither the Vedanta of the Hindus, nor the teachings of the Upanishads and other writings of the six schools of Indian philosophy. Theosophical views, teachings and ideas may be, nay, will be found in these, as also in the Vedas and its six outer or primary limbs; but so will they be found in the Egyptian Puranas known as the Book of the Dead, or in the Greek Itihasas of Iliad and Odyssey, or in the Hebraic Smriti of Moses. But in all these which exist everywhere as Apara Vidya, lower knowledge, distortions and corruptions abound; not only has Avidya-Agnosticism made inroads in Apara Vidya, but priestcraft has attacked it, making it worse than useless -- maleficent.
>In the modern world, therefore, Theosophy comes as a body of teaching which is beyond the Apara Vidya, which is first of the chapters of Gupta Vidya and which cannot be found in full anywhere. The Message of H. P. Blavatsky constitutes that first chapter; "however incomplete and feeble as an exposition" it may be, however inadequate the daring attempt to write it in a human language -- that Message is the first of the seven chapters of the Esoteric Science -- Gupta Vidya -- of which its bearer says this:
>As a whole, neither the foregoing nor what follows can be found in full anywhere. It is not taught in any of the six Indian schools of philosophy, for it pertains to their synthesis -- the seventh, which is the Occult doctrine. It is not traced on any crumbling papyrus of Egypt, nor is it any longer graven on Assyrian tile or granite wall. The Books of the Vedanta (the last word of human knowledge) give out but the metaphysical aspect of this world-Cosmogony; and their priceless thesaurus, the Upanishads -- Upa-ni-shad being a compound word meaning "the conquest of ignorance by the revelation of secret, spiritual knowledge" -- require now the additional possession of a Master-key to enable the student to get at their full meaning. The reason for this I venture to state here as I learned it from a Master. (Volume I, p. 269.)Scepticism and superstition alike are the fruits of corruption of the Apara Vidya, the lower knowledge, whose thread of life,
>Gupta Vidya, connected it to its Spirit, Para Vidya, in the days of yore. The eternal enemies of the Wisdom -- human credulity and its progeny, priestcraft -- ever cut that thread of life, begetting death, and, to perpetuate themselves, vitalize the corpse and call it angel and God. Says The Secret Doctrine:
>...all exoteric religions [can] be shown the falsified copies of the esoteric teaching. It is the priesthood which has to be held responsible for the reaction in favour of materialism of our day. It is by worshiping and enforcing on the masses the worship of the shells -- personified for purposes of allegory -- of pagan ideals, that the latest exoteric religion has made of Western lands a Pandemonium, in which the higher classes worship the golden calf, and the lower and ignorant masses are made to worship an idol with feet of clay. (Volume I, p. 578.)And again it speaks of how the Rays of Gupta Vidya
>became necessarily weakened as they were diffused and shed upon an uncongenial, because too material soil. With the masses they degenerated into Sorcery, taking later on the shape of exoteric religions, of idolatry full of superstitions, and man-, or hero-worship. (Volume II, p. 281.)and refers to the "systematic persecution of the Prophets of the Right Path by those of the Left" and adds:
>The latter, having inaugurated the birth and evolution of the sacerdotal castes, have finally led the world into all these exoteric religions, invented to satisfy the depraved tastes of the "hoi polloi" and the ignorant for ritualistic pomp and the materialization of the ever-immaterial and Unknowable Principle. (Volume II, p. 503.)In none of the exoteric religious philosophies, much less in creeds and less still in priest-ridden places of worship is to be found the pristine Light of Wisdom which can illumine the mind of man, transforming it into Manas-Taijasi. In East and West alike corruption prevails, expressing itself in scientific scepticism, religious superstition, and the strange mixture of blind faith and false learning which gives birth to hydra-headed Psychism.
>The approach of Theosophy, in this day and generation, has to be, therefore, through the clear Message of our era. Once its great Teachings are grasped, religions, sciences, arts and philosophies, show forth the grandeur of what is truly good and beautiful in all of them. Theosophy provides the common basis which unifies them all and co-ordinates what seems contradictory in each.
>
>________________________________
>
>Next article:
>STUDIES IN THE SECRET DOCTRINE
>VI
>
>>________________________________
>> From: Govert Schuller < schuller@KhYu6BKL64HouIEkVzdApP_vg-KVkhonWosxQm3iKe5Yt5thKYhajwGADkLrzB5tQu3NKKus587yaiGqwaw.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012 8:08 AM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear Morten,
>>
>>Thanks for your relative short answer. 8^)
>>
>>Your thoughts are your own here and Iâm not in the position, time-wise, to
>>debate them.
>>
>>I did develop some criteria by which to recognize either the torch-bearer
>>and/or the 20th century effort and evaluated different candidates according
>>to the criteria. Will share that later.
>>
>>At this moment Iâm not looking for any irrefutable proof for the, or a,
>>Gupta-Vidya. Iâm now more interested how that idea (and ideal) came
>>historically into being, how it was disseminated and how HPB ran with it and
>>presented her own version.
>>
>>Best
>>
>>Govert
>>
>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
>>Behalf Of M. Sufilight
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:32 AM
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>Dear Govert anf friends
>>
>>My views are:
>>
>>I am a bit late with a reply...at least more than usual...
>>
>>I am contemplating an longer answer than this one as we speak. I have
>>written 11 pages answering your a, b and c, but I have cut it short in the
>>below. It takes some time to reach a clear conclusion - there are so many
>>angles to consider you know - and also because I am in a learning proces.
>>I think views differ on who fits the bill best with regard to the so-called
>>"Torch-bearer" title mentioned by Blavatsky in her book the Secret Doctrine,
>>vol. I, p. xxxviii.
>>
>>The likely candidates are among the most often mentioned the following:
>>Whether it was J. Krishnamurti (d. 1986), Alice A. Bailey (d. 1949), S.
>>Subramania Iyer (d. 1924) and his Avatar.
>>Ananda Tara Shan (claimed to be Blavatsky re-incarnated...I doubt it.) (d.
>>2002), Sathya Sai Baba (d. 2011) or another possible candidate (just name
>>one and I will add the person) ...will as a minimum have to be compared
>>before we reach a more clear picture on this...Well as I see it.
>>
>>First. With regard to the "Torch-Bearer" idea - the main focus is, as I see
>>it, to always keep in mind that Altruism is the core of the matter here, And
>>that Altruism, as I see it for logical reasons, never will succeed in being
>>promoted without a Psychological Change - ie. Psychological Knowledge - and
>>therefore also awareness about the Science on Psychology (exoteric and
>>esoteric) and the Science Subtle Mind Control - especially within religions
>>- ie. taking into account whether one promotes a sectarian or non-sectarian
>>doctrine - for instance a doctrine about a "Torch-bearer". Both are Sciences
>>- not beliefs. And this is also important. --- So I am not about to seek to
>>promote one or another Guru for the readers in this post - using ann
>>approach which is not taking the Science of Subtle Mind Control into account
>>- when answering your interesting post Govert. It think thÃs is important to
>>centemplate.
>>
>>And because of this - the angle - used to approach the issue discussed -
>>"Torch-bearer" or Maitreya or not - one aught therefore as I see it - to
>>take the Science of Subtle Mind Control into account - and - avoid the risk
>>of promoting one of the usual personality cults which - perhaps -could be
>>emanating from such an exchange like the present one we have. Because it
>>must also be true - that each individuals view about the issue - certainly
>>might differ because of their own level of being Subtly Mind Controlled ---
>>or not. And since it is subtle - each of us - might be victim of it without
>>actually being aware of it. So I will keep these preliminary points into
>>account when we I proceed. I will mentioned and name some of the Authors on
>>the Science of Subtle Mind Control within ordinary science and spiritual
>>science when asked about.
>>
>>My humble conclusion is - that all the above mentioned Candidates - did a
>>poor job on the explaining the Science of Subtle Mind Control. But maybe
>>that was not their task - karmically speaking - who actually knows?
>>Almost none of the above candidates gave the Irrefutable proof on the
>>science called Gupta-Vidya (ie. Atma-Vidya). Perhaps Sai Baba fits the bill
>>better than any other candidate. But then again - either he was the greatest
>>conman in the last century or else he was the greatest Occulist - with
>>regard to be showing signs on Extra Sensory Preseption. Most people would
>>oppose this. I would not say that J. Krishnamurti taught more than Sai Baba
>>on the science of Atma-Vidya - and - others in the Alice A. Bailey camp
>>would claim that Alice A. Bailey did so - despite some of us find this view
>>silly.
>>
>>--- Union is Strength or Solitude is Strength - that is a vital question?
>>---
>>And J. Krishnamurti was, as I see it, more or less clumsy in teaching the
>>doctrine forwarded by Blavatsky on why the TS was founded: Union is Strength
>>when one promote altruism (!!!) He seemed to have taught - Solitude is
>>strength instead, (An odd doctrine to promote by an alleged World Teacher of
>>the Age. - Any comments?). - The actual truth is - BOTH - extrovert and
>>introvert is strength. Simple logic tells us this. One could say that the TS
>>for various reasons - being non-sectarian and all - to a certain extend
>>omitted that part of the equation called solitude. J. Krishnamurti omitted
>>the idea that Union is strength. - Guru's are crutches and similar oneliners
>>coming from his mouth. - But I give the Theosophical Society the upper hand
>>here - because it was also said, that not all belong as members of the
>>Society, and, that, altruism sometimes is best promoted in solitude. And on
>>top of that this was only mentioned by some members of the Theosophical
>>Society, which ORIGINALLY was an Absolutely Non-sectarian Society - with no
>>Solitude Guru - who reject all other Guru's or crutches but his own voice -
>>or at least was so clumsy as to give the expression that this was his
>>message. And that all spiritual organisations in fact was more or less no
>>good - mere sects and all. - And then afterwards he went and created hos -
>>own - so to speak Sectarian - Childrens Schools with the other hand - just
>>to in his last years of his life to end up in a trial with his best friend
>>Rajagopal - on rather trivial matters - compared to a geuine Avatar -
>>consciousness - or even that of a Master.
>>
>>But what is it to give Irrefutable proof on Gupta-Vidya (ie. Atma-Vidya)???
>>I think when this is agreed upon - some of the above mentioned candidates
>>will vanish - if not all of them. And your questions a, b, and c - will be
>>more easy to answer.
>>And Blavatsky did not say that the "Torch-bearer" inevitably would arrive,
>>(See Sd. Vol. I, p. xxxviii).
>>So what is the answer among the readers - and - you Govert on Gupta-Vidya
>>and what is "Irrefutable proof", in what sense is it to be understood?
>>
>>M. Sufilight
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Govert Schuller
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:49 PM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>Dear Morton,
>>
>>Thanks for your long reply. I'll try to be brief. Keep in mind that the big
>>questions in this matter are a) whether the project/program with K was
>>genuine or not, b) whether it was successful or not (with the chance of it
>>being not genuine but still successful), and I'll add c) whether HPB's
>>Torch-bearer prophecy/program was genuine or not (with the possibility that
>>the program was one of HPB's concoctions but found a surprising fulfillment
>>in K).
>>
>>For starters, the following statements would be in support of the idea that
>>HPB's program was genuine, that it was implemented with K and somehow
>>succeeded.
>>
>>1) The words "World Teacher" or "Messiah" to designate the expected
>>"Torch-bearer of Truth" are not mine but were used by CWL and AB. One
>>Theosophist (Jean Overton Fuller) argued that the project with K was genuine
>>but that the CWL/AB accretions were unnecessary and were legitimately tossed
>>out by K.
>>
>>2) You posit that the Torch-bearer, to be genuine and acceptable in
>>your conceptualization, should have taught a psychological key promoting
>>psychological change, non-sectarianism and altruism. One could argue that
>>Krishnamurti's mature teachings fits the bill quite nicely and is quite free
>>from "any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine."
>>
>>3) K himself, being arguably the ultimate insider of the whole saga,
>>claimed in a somewhat puzzling and indirect manner the status of being the
>>expected Torch-bearer of Truth. He said: "Mrs. Besant intended the land at
>>Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching.
>>The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." I
>>argue in my paper on K that this statement is structurally congruent with
>>HPB's Torch-bearer program for the TS.
>>
>>4) Nobody else has come as close as K to fulfill HPB's Torch-bearer
>>prophecy/program.
>>
>>There are other sets of statements to be made from different positions. I
>>have argued for a long time that the project with K was genuine but had
>>failed and that Cyril Scott, David Anrias, Geoffrey Hodson and Elizabeth
>>Clare Prophet had the correct evaluation of what had gone wrong. The
>>skeptical position in regards to HPB would put the whole narrative into
>>question as a series of concoctions, delusions and manipulations, a
>>perspective I'm seriously exploring.
>>
>>Best
>>
>>Govert
>>
>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>[mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>>On
>>Behalf Of M. Sufilight
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 4:19 PM
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>Dear Govert and friends
>>
>>My views are:
>>
>>I will here in the below seek to help you in understanding my view on the
>>matter by writing at least a few pages on it all.
>>I also write so that other Seekers might benefit from it all. (I can only
>>recommend a research in the references given.)
>>
>>I understand that you forward this as a proof on you assertion.
>>But, I think that you misjudge the old lady - Blavatsky - a bit when you go
>>and interpret this as if such a "torch-bearer" should be a Messiah or World
>>Teacher - let alone named Maitreya or Christ. Because this was not the words
>>- chosen by Blavatsky, but the words chosen by you it seems. And I am sure
>>that Blavatsky would have chosen at different kind of formulation if she
>>meant what you clearly seem to imply.
>>And the below quotes from her hand - should settle this question clearly and
>>strongly enough.(Annie Besant's views are merely her own - I am not aware of
>>any documentation supporting her claim that Blavatsky had such a view as her
>>own - as stated in the footnote - and nothing is - clearly - mentioned by
>>Blavatsky and others about that the MAIN reason for founding the
>>Theosophical Society was to prepare for a Messiah --- The Original Objects
>>given in 1875 is here:
>> http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/gfkforum/ourdir.htm#Preamble --- "no
>>creed to disseminate"...etc. etc.)
>>
>>The "torch-bearer" in mention - would therefore as I see it simply be a
>>Bodhisattva or one of the initiated Chelas, who would be chosen for such a
>>task. A role she claimed for Cagliostro and the Count St. Germain in the
>>18th century. (See primarily "Chelas And Lay Chelas" by Blavatsky) And her
>>self no doubt in the 19th century. The one claimed to have --- possibly ---
>>arrived in the 20th century - I have not discovered yet, although I have my
>>ideas. But the teachings must have dealt with the science on psychology - in
>>a very profound manner, and seven-fold too. More in the below on this.
>>
>>We aught to bear in mind - that such a one only would arrive according to
>>Blavatsky --- "If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds
>>better than
>>its predecessors have done" ---- We can easily question whether is has
>>succeeded better or not. And aught perhaps to do so.
>>
>>(((----- Other reference related to all the above are the following: ---
>>BCW, Vol. 1 p. 141 --- and --- BCW, Vol. 12. p. 81, "Kenneth MacKenzie has
>>well proven that Cagliostro had never mixed himself up with political
>>intrigue-the very soul of the activities of the Jesuits." ----this one was
>>for the Alice A. Bailey camp --- See Mahatma LETTER No. LXV --- See also
>>"Theosophical Glossary", 1892 at "St. Germain" - the second world war
>>predicted by Blavatsky and John King's portrait did it as well -
>> http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/images/johnking.jpg - with the Swastica and
>>Jew Star and all. The Law of Karma will not bend, and the negative magicians
>>have their fall. But these are my views, and somebody will say that I
>>interpret too much in alle this. -----)))
>>
>>The teaching forwarded by such a "Torch-bearer" (not a Messiah mind you) in
>>mention, would no doubt give emphasis on the Psychological Key to the Secret
>>Doctrine of all ages - also as a natural result a doctrine giving emphasis
>>on Atma-Vidya (Gupta-Vidya, the same). Also called the "mystical" or moral
>>key - the first key that need to be turned - Because there cannot be any
>>real Altruism promoted without a PSYCHOLOGICAL CHANGE in the Individual.
>>This must be clear. And since 1888 - the Science of Psychology (therefore
>>both esoteric and exoteric !!!) has made its - slowly and almost invisible -
>>almost "french" entree - in the Western Hemisphere and the Eastern as well,
>>and North and South, - and the percentage of human beings being able to read
>>and write on globe as such has increased quite visibly. Taking this into
>>account aught to give the readers an idea about what such a Torch-bearer
>>necessarily must teach - IF - he or she should arrive and karma will permit
>>such an arrival - or has arrived. - And the science on Subtle Mind Control -
>>would no doubt be - carefully and efficiently - taken into account - when
>>such a doctrine was or would be forwarded. - Just like the scientific
>>doctrine on "matter" and "substance" was dealt very much with by Blavatsky
>>in her book the Secret Doctrine. This seem pretty logical.
>>---- Others disagree on the above. And those who disagree most often - do
>>not know a trifle about the psychological science or the psychological
>>science on Subtle Mind Control. A science - not a belief. And this science
>>in our times - is the Psychological Key - and - A Key to the esoteric
>>Psychology. (The reason why the Psychological Key is important is also seen
>>here: "Esoteric Character Of The Gospels" by Blavatsky, CBW, VII, p. 182 .
>>"The first key that one has to use to unravel the dark secrets" .......et
>>seq. - and the rest.... --- and from this article and other papers -
>>historical evidence about the Mysteries through the centuries - and - by
>>analogical contemplations - one will see that the "new" science of
>>psychology (both esoterical and exoterical) is the next important step on
>>this planet for humanity. Today we have psychology creeping in all and
>>everywhere. - At work in nearly all the profit scheming companies, in nearly
>>all the alternative treatments of all sorts (hundred years ago - the
>>soothsayers and "quacks" operated differently - smile), coaching workshops,
>>spin among politicians and civil servants, Even the dogmatic religions had
>>to take psychology seriously, although unwillingly as usual. - And it
>>arrived really visibly as officially mentioned in the 1879 or 1880 or so -
>>on a wave running parallel with the formation of the Theosophical Society.
>>So you see - there is more than one thing going on on this our little planet
>>- while cycle of evolution goes on - with little sweet babies getting born,
>>grow up and begin to walk, become adults, get old and die - all the many
>>lifes that constantly arrive and depart on this planet or world - and the
>>lokas - with the eleusian fields, hades, "walhalla", devachan and all that.)
>>
>>All the above ---- still does not remove the fact - I questioned you about
>>Govert - that the Theosophical Society was PRIMARILY founded so to promote
>>altruism. Not not primarily so to prepare the arrival of a Messiah. So the
>>founding of The Theosophical Society aught certainly not to be connected
>>with any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine in
>>any manner what so ever. This is there I disagreed with you.
>>This you not see this?
>>
>>And if an Avatar arrives - the doctrine - will no doubt be about Altruism
>>and Compassion - AND ESPECIALLY ABOUT HOW TO AVOID SECTARIAN THINKING with
>>regard to any human (because we are all temples of the divine - according to
>>the ancient Wisdom traditions of all ages and cultures) and organisation -
>>ie. the psychological key - and - must be to promote altruism through an
>>Absolutely Non-Sectarian organisational aim - and - even non-organisational
>>- aim, because humans live like ebb and flood, extrovert and introvert, in
>>various phases of life. And any teaching by an Avatar seeking to promote a
>>sectarian doctrine - will quite obviously fail in these days - as it has
>>done in the past decades - although quite a number of the past Initiated
>>teachers - have been plastered with being sectarian - by the same sectarian
>>persons - who still are scheming sectarianism and even dogmatism. However,
>>these are merely my humble views - But I challenge any one to - disprove
>>them. If they are able - they will find a willing listener. This is written
>>from the heart seeking to promote altruism for us all.
>>
>>The below is a contrast to the idea that Blavatsky meant a Messiah - when
>>she mentioned the POSSIBLE - arrival of a Torch-Bearer in the 20th century.
>>
>>H. P. Blavatsky said:
>>MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS
>>"With the spread of the spiritualistic cult, the Messiah craze has vastly
>>increased, and men and women alike have been involved in its whirlpools.
>>Given, a strong desire to reform somehow the religious or social aspect of
>>the world, a personal hatred of certain of its aspects, and a belief in
>>visions and messages, and the result was sure; the "Messiah" arose with a
>>universal panacea for the ills of mankind. If he (very often she) did not
>>make the claim, it was made for him. Carried away by the magnetic force, the
>>eloquence, the courage, the single idea of the apostle pro tem, numbers, for
>>very varied reasons, accepted him or her as the revelator of the hour and of
>>all time. "
>>.......
>>"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and
>>sees its doom."
>> http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/ModernApostlesAndPseudoMessiahs.htm
>>
>>H. B. Blavatsky wrote:
>>"It is, however, right that each member, once he believes in the existence
>>of such Masters, should try to understand what their nature and powers are,
>>to reverence Them in his heart, to draw near to Them, as much as in him
>>lies, and to open up for himself conscious communication with the guru to
>>whose bidding he has devoted his life. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE BY RISING TO
>>THE SPIRITUAL PLANE WHERE THE MASTERS ARE, AND NOT BY ATTEMPTING TO DRAW
>>THEM DOWN TO OURS."
>>(BCW; Vol. XII, p. 492)
>> http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_052.htm
>>
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>My own view are the following.......
>>People are always looking for an Avatar or a Saviour; that does not mean
>>that
>>this is the time for an Avatar or a Christ Saviour. The problems that an
>>Avatar or a Saviour would be
>>able to resolve have not been identified. Nor does the clamor mean
>>that those who cry out are suitable followers. Most of the people who
>>demand an Avatar or a Christ Saviour seem to have some baby's idea of what
>>an Avatar or a Saviour
>>should do. The idea that an Avatar or a Christ Saviour will walk in and we
>>will all
>>recognize him, her or it and follow this being and everybody will be happy
>>strikes me
>>as a strangely IMMATURE ATAVISM. Most of these people, I believe,
>>want not an Avatar or a Christ Saviour but excitement. I doubt that those
>>who cry the
>>loudest would obey an Avatar or a Christ Saviour if there was one. Talk is
>>cheap, and a
>>lot of the talk comes from millions of beginner seekers after truth and
>>wisdom.
>>(Maybe the leaders at various esoteric groups would be kind to consider the
>>above words. Okay?)
>>
>>______________
>>A few extra views of my own....
>>There is no so-called "dead" matter. Atoms vibrate and rotate. From where is
>>the force that makes them rotate, and make the electrons spin? From
>>life-force, no doubt.
>>Even your computerscreen and table is alive and livning. Alle the planets
>>are living. The Sun-spots in the Sun seen by the astronomers are related to
>>the expression of the heart of the Sun and occur every 10-11 years. And the
>>Sun is very much related to the karmic cycles on our planet. It determines
>>the humans our harvests of vegetables, corn, fruits and berries, and the
>>food of animals - and photosynthesis is central here. The Sun is alive and
>>breathes. All planets breathe. Science can still not find out why certain
>>comets are not following ordinary physical laws of science. They can neither
>>understand what force determines the spin of each planet. And the
>>astronomers still talk about "dark matter" outside our Solar System - but
>>they seem to forget to notify the chemist about that this "dark matter"
>>might be very near to matter on earth as well. And we call it Ether or
>>similar.
>>So where ever you look in the future, please realise that - all - this our
>>universe is a living organism. Let us together respect each other as living
>>breathing creatures - all divine in our inner nature. For each human is a
>>Dhyan Chohan (with an esoterical Christian word an Archangel) which in its
>>cycle of necessity had to make it self incarnate as a human - so to absorb
>>the necessary exchange of energy or Akasic recording in the Universe. So in
>>a sense we are here because some Dhyan Chohans need to learn what other
>>Dhyan Chohans already have learned.
>>
>>______________
>>All the above are of course only my humble views.
>>But maybe some of the long time theosophists or other members on this forum
>>would tell me something - I have overlooked - or could improve upon. I would
>>gladly welcome something like that.
>>Altruism is important, is it not?
>>I do not claim my self infallible. - I just have the hope that you as
>>members find the above useful.
>>
>>M. Sufilight
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Govert Schuller
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:34 PM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>Well, gentlemen, if you've read "The Masters and Their Emissaries: From HPB
>>to Guru Ma and Beyond" at
>>< http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/story.html >
>> http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/story.html you might
>>have found the following documentation in footnote 2:
>>
>>[The timing of this project is addressed in footnote 3 with a quote from
>>Annie Besant]
>>
>>Blavatsky wrote in 1889:
>>
>>"If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than
>>its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized,
>>living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth
>>century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been
>>improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said,
>>their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at
>>least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature
>>ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body
>>of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the
>>minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to
>>clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which
>>will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from
>>his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could
>>accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society
>>actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, with out any of these
>>advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the
>>new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine
>>when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its
>>mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I
>>say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the
>>twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now!"
>>
>>H.P. Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy (London: Theosophical Publishing Co.,
>>1889), pp. 306-307.
>>
>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>[mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>>On
>>Behalf Of Daniel
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:45 PM
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>Subject: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>Good question. I will be looking forward for the documentation, too.
>>
>>Daniel
>> http://hpb.cc
>>
>>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>>"M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Daniel and friends
>>>
>>> My views are:
>>>
>>> I se not that many problems with most of what Govert are saying.
>>> The books by the Ballards could easily be at the library at TS Adyar.
>>> (Of course if there were a demand for them. Or donations of books were
>>given.)
>>>
>>> Well, when I reached the following I hesitated immediately...
>>>
>>> Govert wrote:
>>> The Theosophical
>>> Society was founded, not only to re-introduce to the west the idea of an
>>Ancient
>>> Wisdom, but also to prepare the world for the coming of a great teacher.
>>>
>>> M. Sufilight says:
>>> That was a new one to me. Govert?
>>> Where are the documentation on this claim that the Theosophical Society
>>was founded in 1875 for this reason?
>>> I tend to disagree.
>>> The Society was as I understand it founded so to promote altruism - since
>>this was and still is the main object of the Theosophical Society.
>>> All other ideas - cannot - be important or central in any manner. Since
>>this Society was non-sectarian from its very beginning.
>>> Else we can go and say that the Theosophical Society was founded so that
>>you and I could become Avatars or clairvoyant etc. And anything else of a
>>sectarian choosing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> M. Sufilight
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Daniel
>>> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 6:36 PM
>>> Subject: theos-talk Mahatmas versus Ascended Masters
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Govert S. has written the following:
>>>
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alpheus_updates/message/98
>>>
>>> Readers may also want to read what HPB said:
>>>
>>> On Pseudo-Theosophy and Pseudo-Adepts
>>>
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/onpseudotheosophy.htm
>>>
>>> Also see:
>>>
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/latermessengers.htm
>>>
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/psychicversusinitiate.htm
>>>
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophicaltraditions.htm
>>>
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/moderntheosophy.htm
>>>
>>> Some food for thoughtful reflection....
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>> Blavatsky Archives
>>> http://hpb.cc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>
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>
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