Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
Jan 19, 2012 11:36 AM
by Augoeides-222
Govert,
ÂÂ M any years ago in LAÂI bought Andrew Jackson Davis's books and Stainton Moses's books and others also Âfrom rare book dealers in LA.
 ÂIn what I read, I really don't think they are in any way similar to what Madame Blavatsky writes. They both come across as delusional Pseudo-Christian obsessives channeling lower astral obsessives as their authority figures
.
 As to Madame Blavatsky reading books she did, voraciously, but so did most people then, they didn't have tv or radio and lectures, study groups, clubs etc gave outlets for active minds. Also I think it was Bertram K eightly who told in complaint that Madame Blavatsky kept us constantly busy running to the B odlien Âand libraries to get citations she was reading on an unseen screen of her mind( as they watched her), she wanted the proof of the citation she was being provided by paranormal co mmunication. G. R. S. M ead also affims he and others also spent much time researching to validate her second sight writings by providing the direct citations from volumes found in the B odlien or others pla cesÂwhich when located, proved the validative Âaccur acy  of her sighted skill. Madame Blava tsky provides a great deal of bibliography citations in her works, I made it a purpose line back then to try to duplicate those works by bu ying my own copies and reading them. How else could one know and feel and see what she saw an d felt?  Â
My memory is that Madame Blavatsky hated the very thought of Opium and said so more than a few times in her writings and strongly condemned Opium giving citations about the depravity of the Chinese Opium Dens.ÂI do think she did mention some small ofÂpot use being her honest self, butÂrecall please that she almost always had other well known famous to Theosophy close associates living with her constanlyÂin her apartments in England or on the continent or during travels, people of high integrity, character, and ethics. I simply don't recall their announcements that she engaged in drugs to receive her intellectual contents. I would challenge people to prove that assertion with a goodly amount of quotes from those who lived in her daily presence.Â
Again as I have othen done here I point to "H.P.BlavatskyÂ---Tibet and Tulku ("Sky walker" my insert)" by By Geoffrey A. Barborka , The Theosophical Publishing House, Adyar, Madras 20, IndiaÂ, 1966, 476 p. If you really want to get a handle on what and how and by what method, procedure, process, form of communications, normal and paranormal that were ac tively used by the Mahatma's , their Chela's and Her by which a great deal of what she wrote was received. This is the single most vaulable volume in my personal opinion that provides explanatory clear discriptions of the many modes of her receptions that were put into use to accomplish the transfer of knowledge she then wrote. This should not be seen as limited to her peculiar case but these contents in this book far and away are unique, unpa relled, unduplicated elsewhere. I wanted explanations back then to amazing phenomenal activityÂI personally was a witness too and I found Tibet and Tulku to be the only place the explanation given made real sense when compared to whatÂI witnessed in a non-theosophical setting.
Regards,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Govert Schuller" <schuller@Mrf_y397qNG6bS5m40z3Vi5hNtMxD-1B3Xzrxsk0fZt7ksiJj3GIhPKnW2AbPQaVCyZM27g48PjypFyK.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 9:37:45 AM
Subject: RE: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
Â
Yes and no. There are multiple sources from which she might have drawn her ideas. There is no study which sorted out what were HPBâs own original contributions and what she could have derived from sources she had access to. HPB-biographer Meade found an invoice indicating that HPB had ordered a large amount of books by the prolific spiritualist theorist Andrew Jackson Davis. Meade thinks that HPB found a lot of her SD material in Davisâ works.
She also might have had some chemical help in bolstering her imagination. One journalist is on record of having discussed with HPB the relative merits of pot and opium for the workings of the imagination with HPB stating that she preferred pot.
Correct me if Iâm wrong, but underlying your exclamation about HPBâs supposed âhell of an imaginationâ if sheâd were a fraudster is that, because it was too much for to have cooked up, she was not a fraudster. Is that your sub-text?
From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:06 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
All I can conclude is that if she was a fraudster she had one hell of an imagination! lol
Cass
>________________________________
> From: Govert Schuller < schuller@Mrf_y397qNG6bS5m40z3Vi5hNtMxD-1B3Xzrxsk0fZt7ksiJj3GIhPKnW2AbPQaVCyZM27g48PjypFyK.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012 8:20 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
>
>
>
>Strategies to substantiate the genuineness of HPB by arguing that she didnât get any fame, money or power out of establishing Theosophy are imo somewhat simple and not open-minded towards psychological alternatives. Actually, she did get some fame and power and might have relished it at certain moments. She also had set-backs of course. I do not regard her motivation, the basic impetus which drove her, as clearly established. And I do not belief her own self-presentation necessarily. To me sheâs now again somewhat of a puzzle with possibly some dark overtones.
>
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:11 PM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
>
>I could understand this if there was a million dollar cheque at the end of it. But why spend a lifetime on building something with no rewards, be it, financial or otherwise.
>The agenda of a Fraudster would show itself in either qudos or power. HPB received nothing from establishing theosophy in the west but criticism and insult.
>
>Cass
>
>>________________________________
>> From: Govert Schuller < schuller@Mrf_y397qNG6bS5m40z3Vi5hNtMxD-1B3Xzrxsk0fZt7ksiJj3GIhPKnW2AbPQaVCyZM27g48PjypFyK.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Monday, 16 January 2012 5:36 AM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks for sharing. Always good to hear some biographical background.
>>
>>"It was obvious at least to me at some point that if HPB was just a fraud
>>and her Masters really didn't exist, then obviously LATER claims were also
>>fraudulent and illusionary."
>>
>>Quite so.
>>
>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
>>Behalf Of Daniel H. Caldwell
>>Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 10:10 PM
>>To: theos talk
>>Cc: danielhcaldwell@LLYCpwb6_WT3GCCJnKP2bz1gO2pGNuOPJfZTAOMXuQKu3LbJ0yUvFTci7mKzD7j-1CipqTT2CvaIp85_KpHRDw.yahoo.invalid <mailto:danielhcaldwell%40yahoo.com> <mailto:danielhcaldwell%40yahoo.com>
>>Subject: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
>>
>>Pablo's article on the Masters versus the Ascended Masters and
>>Govert's reply, etc. have made me think back to how I first came to
>>Theosophy and my subsequent study and research.
>>
>>I first read about Theosophy through reading books by Annie Besant and C.W.
>>Leadbeater. It was only later that I came across THE MAHATMA LETTERS and THE
>>SECRET DOCTRINE.
>>
>>And then upon reading the latter 2 works, I started being quite puzzled by
>>what seemed like all sorts of differences between Besant/Leadbeater and The
>>Mahatma Letters/Secret Doctrine. I remember I was quite confused by all of
>>that. At that point in time I didn't have a clue as to what was what or
>>as to what was going on. I had not heard at that stage that there was a
>>"Theosophy" that was supposedly different from "Neo-Theosophy."
>>
>>Without going into alot of other interesting detail, etc, as time went on I
>>found out that there were other people claiming also to be in contact with
>>the Theosophical Masters other than HPB, CWL and AB and that most of these
>>claims were made after HPB's death.
>>
>>Bailey, Prophet, Purucker, Judge, Tingley, Ballard, Chaney, etc. were some
>>of these names I first ran across. I learned about more from time to
>>time!!!!
>>
>>And after reading some of the material and books by and about these latter
>>named individuals, I was even more confused! Again there seemed to be a
>>hodgepodge of claims and teachings. What should I make of it all?
>>
>>I was at the point of not only being confused but also being somewhat
>>skeptical as a result of all the multitude of contradictiory and conflicting
>>claims and counterclaims.
>>
>>Then I noticed that all or almost all of the later claimants were basing
>>their claims on what Blavatsky had first claimed. That is, that she was in
>>contact with Master KH and M of the Occult Brotherhood.
>>
>>And many of these claimants more or less said they were following in
>>HPB's footsteps or that they were the newest messenger of the same
>>Theosophical Masters, however they might phrase it.
>>
>>So I wanted to know more about the "fountain source", that is HPB, her life,
>>her claims, her work, her writings and her teachings, and also about her
>>Teachers.
>>
>>If she was the one to start the ball rolling, so to speak, then it seemed
>>important to go back to the beginning.....what were the original claims,
>>teachings, etc. of H.P.B.?
>>
>>So over many years I took it upon myself to find out more about HPB, her
>>life, her claims, her work, her writings, her teachings.
>>
>>Did her Masters really exist? Or did she just make them up as Richard
>>Hodgson's report asserted. What was the evidence from HPB's life
>>that would help one to decide whether what she claimed was true and that she
>>was really in contact with these Masters or whether she was just a charlatan
>>or maybe some self-hallucinating psychic or victim of her own subconscious
>>mind or a tool of Satan and his demons, etc.
>>
>>I am by nature a very skeptical person but also I try to be open minded and
>>I also try to challenge my own assumptions and thinking.
>>
>>So I started collecting everything I could on Blavatsky. Writing to this
>>scholar or Theosophical writer, this Theosophical Society or that
>>Theosophical group, to this library or special collection, etc. etc.
>>
>>While I was doing all of that, I was also independently trying to educate
>>myself on world religions, mythologies, philosophies, modern day "cults" and
>>minority spiritual movements, spiritualism, parapsychology, transpersonal
>>pschology, mysticism, magic, ancient civilizations and a whole host of other
>>subjects since HPB of course was dealing with all these subjects directly or
>>indirectly in all of her writings. How could I understand what she was
>>writing about without having more background on the subjects she was dealing
>>with, quoting from, etc.?
>>
>>Moving on....
>>
>>Could HPB perform psychic phenomena? There was alot of seemingly conflicting
>>evidence. What was what? So I studied all of that.
>>
>>What evidence was there that her Masters existed? I ignored her own
>>testimony and looked for the testimony of people who meet her and knew her
>>and claimed they had encountered/met her Teachers. And what did the skeptic
>>say about these Masters? etc. etc.
>>
>>Plus at the same time, by studying all of this testimony about encounters
>>with Masters, by also looking at what HPB wrote about her Masters, who they
>>were, their nature, etc., one could start to construct from all of this a
>>better picture of who these Masters were suppose to be. Plus of course since
>>we had at
>>least 3 volumes of letters from the Masters KH and M and a few other adepts,
>>then what would these letters reveal about the supposed adepts, about what a
>>Master is or isn't, about the Occult Brotherhood supposedly in the
>>background, etc.
>>
>>The same with all of HPB's writings. What is this Theosophy that she is
>>writing about? From a careful reading and studying of all her writings,
>>could I come to an understanding and comprehension of this thing called
>>Theosophy?
>>
>>So this is where I have devoted a great deal of my time for many, many
>>years.
>>
>>In summary, I went back to Blavatsky and tried to see what were her claims,
>>her teachings, first of all simply to KNOW what they were!
>>
>>But of course I also wanted to know if what she claimed and taught was true,
>>valid etc. etc. or just the result of fraudulent activity, ravings of some
>>sincere but deluded kook, etc.
>>
>>And in my mind at least was the thought that with this foundation, then
>>maybe one might be in a somewhat better position to assess and evaluate the
>>claims made LATER by Judge, Besant, Leadbeater, Tingley, Purucker, Bailey,
>>etc.
>>
>>It was obvious at least to me at some point that if HPB was just a fraud and
>>her Masters really didn't exist, then obviously LATER claims were also
>>fraudulent and illusionary.
>>
>>But even if HPB's claims, etc. were valid and true, then what would or
>>should one make of all these later claimants?
>>
>>Daniel
>> http://hpb.cc
>>
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