Theos-Talk Archives (January 2012 Message tt00108)

All I can conclude is that if she was a fraudster she had one hell of an imagination! Âlol
Cass



>________________________________
> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@L9aT-Djh3q9APvqx0WVrgdB2EisKwAFnW5nHpxgEeCWUBsv6_YxgftI17xh_W3e0KgEcSkX2rSa2AQ.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012 8:20 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
> 
>
>Â 
>Strategies to substantiate the genuineness of HPB by arguing that she didnât get any fame, money or power out of establishing Theosophy are imo somewhat simple and not open-minded towards psychological alternatives. Actually, she did get some fame and power and might have relished it at certain moments. She also had set-backs of course. I do not regard her motivation, the basic impetus which drove her, as clearly established. And I do not belief her own self-presentation necessarily. To me sheâs now again somewhat of a puzzle with possibly some dark overtones. 
>
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:11 PM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
>
>I could understand this if there was a million dollar cheque at the end of it.  But why spend a lifetime on building something with no rewards, be it, financial or otherwise.
>The agenda of a Fraudster would show itself in either qudos or power.  HPB received nothing from establishing theosophy in the west but criticism and insult.
>
>Cass
>
>>________________________________
>> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@L9aT-Djh3q9APvqx0WVrgdB2EisKwAFnW5nHpxgEeCWUBsv6_YxgftI17xh_W3e0KgEcSkX2rSa2AQ.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>>Sent: Monday, 16 January 2012 5:36 AM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
>> 
>>
>> 
>>Thanks for sharing. Always good to hear some biographical background.
>>
>>"It was obvious at least to me at some point that if HPB was just a fraud
>>and her Masters really didn't exist, then obviously LATER claims were also
>>fraudulent and illusionary."
>>
>>Quite so. 
>>
>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
>>Behalf Of Daniel H. Caldwell
>>Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 10:10 PM
>>To: theos talk
>>Cc: danielhcaldwell@E2IVrK115o0vqKYlKqvug3Nh6boaaSup4Od6G777WkY4MgzrVyYE8QP7OmUeMvt4fzI1b97TPQ2KriJlnSolngiOKmE.yahoo.invalid <mailto:danielhcaldwell%40yahoo.com> 
>>Subject: theos-talk How I Have Grappled with the Claims of Blavatsky, etc.
>>
>>Pablo&#39;s article on the Masters versus the Ascended Masters and
>>Govert&#39;s reply, etc. have made me think back to how I first came to
>>Theosophy and my subsequent study and research.
>>
>>I first read about Theosophy through reading books by Annie Besant and C.W.
>>Leadbeater. It was only later that I came across THE MAHATMA LETTERS and THE
>>SECRET DOCTRINE.
>>
>>And then upon reading the latter 2 works, I started being quite puzzled by
>>what seemed like all sorts of differences between Besant/Leadbeater and The
>>Mahatma Letters/Secret Doctrine. I remember I was quite confused by all of
>>that. At that point in time I didn&#39;t have a clue as to what was what or
>>as to what was going on. I had not heard at that stage that there was a
>>"Theosophy" that was supposedly different from "Neo-Theosophy."
>>
>>Without going into alot of other interesting detail, etc, as time went on I
>>found out that there were other people claiming also to be in contact with
>>the Theosophical Masters other than HPB, CWL and AB and that most of these
>>claims were made after HPB&#39;s death.
>>
>>Bailey, Prophet, Purucker, Judge, Tingley, Ballard, Chaney, etc. were some
>>of these names I first ran across. I learned about more from time to
>>time!!!!
>>
>>And after reading some of the material and books by and about these latter
>>named individuals, I was even more confused! Again there seemed to be a
>>hodgepodge of claims and teachings. What should I make of it all?
>>
>>I was at the point of not only being confused but also being somewhat
>>skeptical as a result of all the multitude of contradictiory and conflicting
>>claims and counterclaims.
>>
>>Then I noticed that all or almost all of the later claimants were basing
>>their claims on what Blavatsky had first claimed. That is, that she was in
>>contact with Master KH and M of the Occult Brotherhood.
>>
>>And many of these claimants more or less said they were following in
>>HPB&#39;s footsteps or that they were the newest messenger of the same
>>Theosophical Masters, however they might phrase it.
>>
>>So I wanted to know more about the "fountain source", that is HPB, her life,
>>her claims, her work, her writings and her teachings, and also about her
>>Teachers.
>>
>>If she was the one to start the ball rolling, so to speak, then it seemed
>>important to go back to the beginning.....what were the original claims,
>>teachings, etc. of H.P.B.?
>>
>>So over many years I took it upon myself to find out more about HPB, her
>>life, her claims, her work, her writings, her teachings.
>>
>>Did her Masters really exist? Or did she just make them up as Richard
>>Hodgson&#39;s report asserted. What was the evidence from HPB&#39;s life
>>that would help one to decide whether what she claimed was true and that she
>>was really in contact with these Masters or whether she was just a charlatan
>>or maybe some self-hallucinating psychic or victim of her own subconscious
>>mind or a tool of Satan and his demons, etc.
>>
>>I am by nature a very skeptical person but also I try to be open minded and
>>I also try to challenge my own assumptions and thinking.
>>
>>So I started collecting everything I could on Blavatsky. Writing to this
>>scholar or Theosophical writer, this Theosophical Society or that
>>Theosophical group, to this library or special collection, etc. etc. 
>>
>>While I was doing all of that, I was also independently trying to educate
>>myself on world religions, mythologies, philosophies, modern day "cults" and
>>minority spiritual movements, spiritualism, parapsychology, transpersonal
>>pschology, mysticism, magic, ancient civilizations and a whole host of other
>>subjects since HPB of course was dealing with all these subjects directly or
>>indirectly in all of her writings. How could I understand what she was
>>writing about without having more background on the subjects she was dealing
>>with, quoting from, etc.?
>>
>>Moving on....
>>
>>Could HPB perform psychic phenomena? There was alot of seemingly conflicting
>>evidence. What was what? So I studied all of that. 
>>
>>What evidence was there that her Masters existed? I ignored her own
>>testimony and looked for the testimony of people who meet her and knew her
>>and claimed they had encountered/met her Teachers. And what did the skeptic
>>say about these Masters? etc. etc.
>>
>>Plus at the same time, by studying all of this testimony about encounters
>>with Masters, by also looking at what HPB wrote about her Masters, who they
>>were, their nature, etc., one could start to construct from all of this a
>>better picture of who these Masters were suppose to be. Plus of course since
>>we had at
>>least 3 volumes of letters from the Masters KH and M and a few other adepts,
>>then what would these letters reveal about the supposed adepts, about what a
>>Master is or isn&#39;t, about the Occult Brotherhood supposedly in the
>>background, etc.
>>
>>The same with all of HPB&#39;s writings. What is this Theosophy that she is
>>writing about? From a careful reading and studying of all her writings,
>>could I come to an understanding and comprehension of this thing called
>>Theosophy?
>>
>>So this is where I have devoted a great deal of my time for many, many
>>years.
>>
>>In summary, I went back to Blavatsky and tried to see what were her claims,
>>her teachings, first of all simply to KNOW what they were!
>>
>>But of course I also wanted to know if what she claimed and taught was true,
>>valid etc. etc. or just the result of fraudulent activity, ravings of some
>>sincere but deluded kook, etc.
>>
>>And in my mind at least was the thought that with this foundation, then
>>maybe one might be in a somewhat better position to assess and evaluate the
>>claims made LATER by Judge, Besant, Leadbeater, Tingley, Purucker, Bailey,
>>etc. 
>>
>>It was obvious at least to me at some point that if HPB was just a fraud and
>>her Masters really didn&#39;t exist, then obviously LATER claims were also
>>fraudulent and illusionary.
>>
>>But even if HPB&#39;s claims, etc. were valid and true, then what would or
>>should one make of all these later claimants?
>>
>>Daniel
>>http://hpb.cc
>>
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