Theos-Talk Archives (January 2012 Message tt00097)

yes, but in terms of him being a teacher?
Cass



>________________________________
> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@5cV2m6NuutM0JSGFf7aAgso5vokJ3MGRyyzRI-i-HhNgrNQiUS08f6FKXWOUkLiXlLjmk6PZpVMFBUKOE-4q.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Monday, 16 January 2012 5:34 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
> 
>
>Â 
>Courageous rascal
>
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
>Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:35 PM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>
>Govert,
>Your thoughts on Gurdgieff?
>Cass
>
>>________________________________
>> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@5cV2m6NuutM0JSGFf7aAgso5vokJ3MGRyyzRI-i-HhNgrNQiUS08f6FKXWOUkLiXlLjmk6PZpVMFBUKOE-4q.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>>Sent: Sunday, 15 January 2012 5:49 AM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>> 
>>
>> 
>>Dear Morton,
>>
>>Thanks for your long reply. I'll try to be brief. Keep in mind that the big
>>questions in this matter are a) whether the project/program with K was
>>genuine or not, b) whether it was successful or not (with the chance of it
>>being not genuine but still successful), and I'll add c) whether HPB's
>>Torch-bearer prophecy/program was genuine or not (with the possibility that
>>the program was one of HPB's concoctions but found a surprising fulfillment
>>in K). 
>>
>>For starters, the following statements would be in support of the idea that
>>HPB's program was genuine, that it was implemented with K and somehow
>>succeeded. 
>>
>>1) The words "World Teacher" or "Messiah" to designate the expected
>>"Torch-bearer of Truth" are not mine but were used by CWL and AB. One
>>Theosophist (Jean Overton Fuller) argued that the project with K was genuine
>>but that the CWL/AB accretions were unnecessary and were legitimately tossed
>>out by K.
>>
>>2) You posit that the Torch-bearer, to be genuine and acceptable in
>>your conceptualization, should have taught a psychological key promoting
>>psychological change, non-sectarianism and altruism. One could argue that
>>Krishnamurti's mature teachings fits the bill quite nicely and is quite free
>>from "any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine." 
>>
>>3) K himself, being arguably the ultimate insider of the whole saga,
>>claimed in a somewhat puzzling and indirect manner the status of being the
>>expected Torch-bearer of Truth. He said: "Mrs. Besant intended the land at
>>Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching.
>>The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." I
>>argue in my paper on K that this statement is structurally congruent with
>>HPB's Torch-bearer program for the TS. 
>>
>>4) Nobody else has come as close as K to fulfill HPB's Torch-bearer
>>prophecy/program. 
>>
>>There are other sets of statements to be made from different positions. I
>>have argued for a long time that the project with K was genuine but had
>>failed and that Cyril Scott, David Anrias, Geoffrey Hodson and Elizabeth
>>Clare Prophet had the correct evaluation of what had gone wrong. The
>>skeptical position in regards to HPB would put the whole narrative into
>>question as a series of concoctions, delusions and manipulations, a
>>perspective I'm seriously exploring.
>>
>>Best
>>
>>Govert 
>>
>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
>>Behalf Of M. Sufilight
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 4:19 PM
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>Dear Govert and friends
>>
>>My views are:
>>
>>I will here in the below seek to help you in understanding my view on the
>>matter by writing at least a few pages on it all.
>>I also write so that other Seekers might benefit from it all. (I can only
>>recommend a research in the references given.)
>>
>>I understand that you forward this as a proof on you assertion.
>>But, I think that you misjudge the old lady - Blavatsky - a bit when you go
>>and interpret this as if such a "torch-bearer" should be a Messiah or World
>>Teacher - let alone named Maitreya or Christ. Because this was not the words
>>- chosen by Blavatsky, but the words chosen by you it seems. And I am sure
>>that Blavatsky would have chosen at different kind of formulation if she
>>meant what you clearly seem to imply.
>>And the below quotes from her hand - should settle this question clearly and
>>strongly enough.(Annie Besant's views are merely her own - I am not aware of
>>any documentation supporting her claim that Blavatsky had such a view as her
>>own - as stated in the footnote - and nothing is - clearly - mentioned by
>>Blavatsky and others about that the MAIN reason for founding the
>>Theosophical Society was to prepare for a Messiah --- The Original Objects
>>given in 1875 is here:
>>http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/gfkforum/ourdir.htm#Preamble --- "no
>>creed to disseminate"...etc. etc.)
>>
>>The "torch-bearer" in mention - would therefore as I see it simply be a
>>Bodhisattva or one of the initiated Chelas, who would be chosen for such a
>>task. A role she claimed for Cagliostro and the Count St. Germain in the
>>18th century. (See primarily "Chelas And Lay Chelas" by Blavatsky) And her
>>self no doubt in the 19th century. The one claimed to have --- possibly ---
>>arrived in the 20th century - I have not discovered yet, although I have my
>>ideas. But the teachings must have dealt with the science on psychology - in
>>a very profound manner, and seven-fold too. More in the below on this.
>>
>>We aught to bear in mind - that such a one only would arrive according to
>>Blavatsky --- "If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds
>>better than
>>its predecessors have done" ---- We can easily question whether is has
>>succeeded better or not. And aught perhaps to do so.
>>
>>(((----- Other reference related to all the above are the following: ---
>>BCW, Vol. 1 p. 141 --- and --- BCW, Vol. 12. p. 81, "Kenneth MacKenzie has
>>well proven that Cagliostro had never mixed himself up with political
>>intrigue-the very soul of the activities of the Jesuits." ----this one was
>>for the Alice A. Bailey camp --- See Mahatma LETTER No. LXV --- See also
>>"Theosophical Glossary", 1892 at "St. Germain" - the second world war
>>predicted by Blavatsky and John King's portrait did it as well -
>>http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/images/johnking.jpg - with the Swastica and
>>Jew Star and all. The Law of Karma will not bend, and the negative magicians
>>have their fall. But these are my views, and somebody will say that I
>>interpret too much in alle this. -----)))
>>
>>The teaching forwarded by such a "Torch-bearer" (not a Messiah mind you) in
>>mention, would no doubt give emphasis on the Psychological Key to the Secret
>>Doctrine of all ages - also as a natural result a doctrine giving emphasis
>>on Atma-Vidya (Gupta-Vidya, the same). Also called the "mystical" or moral
>>key - the first key that need to be turned - Because there cannot be any
>>real Altruism promoted without a PSYCHOLOGICAL CHANGE in the Individual.
>>This must be clear. And since 1888 - the Science of Psychology (therefore
>>both esoteric and exoteric !!!) has made its - slowly and almost invisible -
>>almost "french" entree - in the Western Hemisphere and the Eastern as well,
>>and North and South, - and the percentage of human beings being able to read
>>and write on globe as such has increased quite visibly. Taking this into
>>account aught to give the readers an idea about what such a Torch-bearer
>>necessarily must teach - IF - he or she should arrive and karma will permit
>>such an arrival - or has arrived. - And the science on Subtle Mind Control -
>>would no doubt be - carefully and efficiently - taken into account - when
>>such a doctrine was or would be forwarded. - Just like the scientific
>>doctrine on "matter" and "substance" was dealt very much with by Blavatsky
>>in her book the Secret Doctrine. This seem pretty logical. 
>>---- Others disagree on the above. And those who disagree most often - do
>>not know a trifle about the psychological science or the psychological
>>science on Subtle Mind Control. A science - not a belief. And this science
>>in our times - is the Psychological Key - and - A Key to the esoteric
>>Psychology. (The reason why the Psychological Key is important is also seen
>>here: "Esoteric Character Of The Gospels" by Blavatsky, CBW, VII, p. 182 .
>>"The first key that one has to use to unravel the dark secrets" .......et
>>seq. - and the rest.... --- and from this article and other papers -
>>historical evidence about the Mysteries through the centuries - and - by
>>analogical contemplations - one will see that the "new" science of
>>psychology (both esoterical and exoterical) is the next important step on
>>this planet for humanity. Today we have psychology creeping in all and
>>everywhere. - At work in nearly all the profit scheming companies, in nearly
>>all the alternative treatments of all sorts (hundred years ago - the
>>soothsayers and "quacks" operated differently - smile), coaching workshops,
>>spin among politicians and civil servants, Even the dogmatic religions had
>>to take psychology seriously, although unwillingly as usual. - And it
>>arrived really visibly as officially mentioned in the 1879 or 1880 or so -
>>on a wave running parallel with the formation of the Theosophical Society.
>>So you see - there is more than one thing going on on this our little planet
>>- while cycle of evolution goes on - with little sweet babies getting born,
>>grow up and begin to walk, become adults, get old and die - all the many
>>lifes that constantly arrive and depart on this planet or world - and the
>>lokas - with the eleusian fields, hades, "walhalla", devachan and all that.)
>>
>>All the above ---- still does not remove the fact - I questioned you about
>>Govert - that the Theosophical Society was PRIMARILY founded so to promote
>>altruism. Not not primarily so to prepare the arrival of a Messiah. So the
>>founding of The Theosophical Society aught certainly not to be connected
>>with any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine in
>>any manner what so ever. This is there I disagreed with you.
>>This you not see this?
>>
>>And if an Avatar arrives - the doctrine - will no doubt be about Altruism
>>and Compassion - AND ESPECIALLY ABOUT HOW TO AVOID SECTARIAN THINKING with
>>regard to any human (because we are all temples of the divine - according to
>>the ancient Wisdom traditions of all ages and cultures) and organisation -
>>ie. the psychological key - and - must be to promote altruism through an
>>Absolutely Non-Sectarian organisational aim - and - even non-organisational
>>- aim, because humans live like ebb and flood, extrovert and introvert, in
>>various phases of life. And any teaching by an Avatar seeking to promote a
>>sectarian doctrine - will quite obviously fail in these days - as it has
>>done in the past decades - although quite a number of the past Initiated
>>teachers - have been plastered with being sectarian - by the same sectarian
>>persons - who still are scheming sectarianism and even dogmatism. However,
>>these are merely my humble views - But I challenge any one to - disprove
>>them. If they are able - they will find a willing listener. This is written
>>from the heart seeking to promote altruism for us all.
>>
>>The below is a contrast to the idea that Blavatsky meant a Messiah - when
>>she mentioned the POSSIBLE - arrival of a Torch-Bearer in the 20th century.
>>
>>H. P. Blavatsky said:
>>MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS
>>"With the spread of the spiritualistic cult, the Messiah craze has vastly
>>increased, and men and women alike have been involved in its whirlpools.
>>Given, a strong desire to reform somehow the religious or social aspect of
>>the world, a personal hatred of certain of its aspects, and a belief in
>>visions and messages, and the result was sure; the "Messiah" arose with a
>>universal panacea for the ills of mankind. If he (very often she) did not
>>make the claim, it was made for him. Carried away by the magnetic force, the
>>eloquence, the courage, the single idea of the apostle pro tem, numbers, for
>>very varied reasons, accepted him or her as the revelator of the hour and of
>>all time. "
>>.......
>>"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and
>>sees its doom."
>>http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/ModernApostlesAndPseudoMessiahs.htm
>>
>>H. B. Blavatsky wrote:
>>"It is, however, right that each member, once he believes in the existence
>>of such Masters, should try to understand what their nature and powers are,
>>to reverence Them in his heart, to draw near to Them, as much as in him
>>lies, and to open up for himself conscious communication with the guru to
>>whose bidding he has devoted his life. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE BY RISING TO
>>THE SPIRITUAL PLANE WHERE THE MASTERS ARE, AND NOT BY ATTEMPTING TO DRAW
>>THEM DOWN TO OURS."
>>(BCW; Vol. XII, p. 492)
>>http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_052.htm
>>
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>My own view are the following.......
>>People are always looking for an Avatar or a Saviour; that does not mean
>>that
>>this is the time for an Avatar or a Christ Saviour. The problems that an
>>Avatar or a Saviour would be
>>able to resolve have not been identified. Nor does the clamor mean
>>that those who cry out are suitable followers. Most of the people who
>>demand an Avatar or a Christ Saviour seem to have some baby's idea of what
>>an Avatar or a Saviour
>>should do. The idea that an Avatar or a Christ Saviour will walk in and we
>>will all
>>recognize him, her or it and follow this being and everybody will be happy
>>strikes me
>>as a strangely IMMATURE ATAVISM. Most of these people, I believe,
>>want not an Avatar or a Christ Saviour but excitement. I doubt that those
>>who cry the
>>loudest would obey an Avatar or a Christ Saviour if there was one. Talk is
>>cheap, and a
>>lot of the talk comes from millions of beginner seekers after truth and
>>wisdom.
>>(Maybe the leaders at various esoteric groups would be kind to consider the
>>above words. Okay?)
>>
>>______________
>>A few extra views of my own....
>>There is no so-called "dead" matter. Atoms vibrate and rotate. From where is
>>the force that makes them rotate, and make the electrons spin? From
>>life-force, no doubt.
>>Even your computerscreen and table is alive and livning. Alle the planets
>>are living. The Sun-spots in the Sun seen by the astronomers are related to
>>the expression of the heart of the Sun and occur every 10-11 years. And the
>>Sun is very much related to the karmic cycles on our planet. It determines
>>the humans our harvests of vegetables, corn, fruits and berries, and the
>>food of animals - and photosynthesis is central here. The Sun is alive and
>>breathes. All planets breathe. Science can still not find out why certain
>>comets are not following ordinary physical laws of science. They can neither
>>understand what force determines the spin of each planet. And the
>>astronomers still talk about "dark matter" outside our Solar System - but
>>they seem to forget to notify the chemist about that this "dark matter"
>>might be very near to matter on earth as well. And we call it Ether or
>>similar.
>>So where ever you look in the future, please realise that - all - this our
>>universe is a living organism. Let us together respect each other as living
>>breathing creatures - all divine in our inner nature. For each human is a
>>Dhyan Chohan (with an esoterical Christian word an Archangel) which in its
>>cycle of necessity had to make it self incarnate as a human - so to absorb
>>the necessary exchange of energy or Akasic recording in the Universe. So in
>>a sense we are here because some Dhyan Chohans need to learn what other
>>Dhyan Chohans already have learned. 
>>
>>______________
>>All the above are of course only my humble views.
>>But maybe some of the long time theosophists or other members on this forum
>>would tell me something - I have overlooked - or could improve upon. I would
>>gladly welcome something like that. 
>>Altruism is important, is it not?
>>I do not claim my self infallible. - I just have the hope that you as
>>members find the above useful. 
>>
>>M. Sufilight
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: Govert Schuller 
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:34 PM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>Well, gentlemen, if you've read "The Masters and Their Emissaries: From HPB
>>to Guru Ma and Beyond" at
>><http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/story.html>
>>http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/story.html you might
>>have found the following documentation in footnote 2:
>>
>>[The timing of this project is addressed in footnote 3 with a quote from
>>Annie Besant]
>>
>>Blavatsky wrote in 1889: 
>>
>>"If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than
>>its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized,
>>living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth
>>century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been
>>improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said,
>>their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at
>>least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature
>>ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body
>>of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the
>>minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to
>>clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which
>>will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from
>>his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could
>>accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society
>>actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, with out any of these
>>advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the
>>new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine
>>when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its
>>mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I
>>say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the
>>twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now!"
>>
>>H.P. Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy (London: Theosophical Publishing Co.,
>>1889), pp. 306-307. 
>>
>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>>[mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>>On
>>Behalf Of Daniel
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:45 PM
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>>Subject: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>
>>Good question. I will be looking forward for the documentation, too.
>>
>>Daniel
>>http://hpb.cc
>>
>>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>>"M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Daniel and friends
>>> 
>>> My views are:
>>> 
>>> I se not that many problems with most of what Govert are saying.
>>> The books by the Ballards could easily be at the library at TS Adyar.
>>> (Of course if there were a demand for them. Or donations of books were
>>given.)
>>> 
>>> Well, when I reached the following I hesitated immediately...
>>> 
>>> Govert wrote:
>>> The Theosophical
>>> Society was founded, not only to re-introduce to the west the idea of an
>>Ancient
>>> Wisdom, but also to prepare the world for the coming of a great teacher.
>>> 
>>> M. Sufilight says:
>>> That was a new one to me. Govert?
>>> Where are the documentation on this claim that the Theosophical Society
>>was founded in 1875 for this reason?
>>> I tend to disagree.
>>> The Society was as I understand it founded so to promote altruism - since
>>this was and still is the main object of the Theosophical Society.
>>> All other ideas - cannot - be important or central in any manner. Since
>>this Society was non-sectarian from its very beginning.
>>> Else we can go and say that the Theosophical Society was founded so that
>>you and I could become Avatars or clairvoyant etc. And anything else of a
>>sectarian choosing.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> M. Sufilight
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Daniel 
>>> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 6:36 PM
>>> Subject: theos-talk Mahatmas versus Ascended Masters
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Govert S. has written the following:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alpheus_updates/message/98
>>> 
>>> Readers may also want to read what HPB said:
>>> 
>>> On Pseudo-Theosophy and Pseudo-Adepts
>>> 
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/onpseudotheosophy.htm
>>> 
>>> Also see:
>>> 
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/latermessengers.htm
>>> 
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/psychicversusinitiate.htm
>>> 
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophicaltraditions.htm
>>> 
>>> http://blavatskyarchives.com/moderntheosophy.htm
>>> 
>>> Some food for thoughtful reflection....
>>> 
>>> Daniel
>>> Blavatsky Archives
>>> http://hpb.cc
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>
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>> 
>>
>>
>
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