Theos-Talk Archives (January 2012 Message tt00044)

Youâre right, there is some overlap there regarding the lower manas. And HPB also warned for the premature blowing up or suppression of the kama-manas. I have actually seen some people losing some of their marbles by pursuing Kâs teachings too one-sidedly. There is a case to be made that some theosophical concepts (even if possibly not correct0 might give some sort of anchoring to deal with K and stay relatively sane. But other concepts or systems might work equally well. My preference would be the phenomenology of the stages of skill acquisition with its more subtle understanding of the role of thought and self-representation in the process of acquiring highly complex skills like nursing, educating or just living in general.  Itâs unfortunate that K, instead of repeating himself a little too much, didnât humble himself to spend some time studying psychology and other social sciences. 

 

From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 5:40 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: theos-talk Jiddu Krishnamurti on Religious Organizations

 

  

I disagree, I believe their teachings are very much related in terms of lower manas.  JK's teachings, i.e. beyond the lower manas can be fraught with psychological dangers for those who are not mentally prepared, i.e. if one totally removes or suppresses lower manas one could be left in a psychological abyss without the comfort and security of the "I".  IMO, K's path (Advaita based) i.e. living in the now or living without memory could lead to mental instability.  I imagine his dilemma or cross was that in order to remain true to his own path he was in constant conflict with it.  His path, is the path of one - not many, yet he wrote for the many.

Cass

>________________________________
> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@MGZe1jpJHIC55pIRibR57QSfZqJVYtZ2sFb63PkuZG-PZjdg_vWkRXIsVJLJe35yOfJT0vin8-jMdCCSyw.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  
>Sent: Sunday, 1 January 2012 7:18 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Jiddu Krishnamurti on Religious Organizations
> 
>
>  
>Josh,
>
>Yes, both K and Theosophy can be perceived as unrelated. They can be pursued independently from each other. 
>
>But historically they are obviously intimately connected. 
>
>And to see (or interpret) how both teachings are related is quite a challenging task. Much depends on oneâs own background and metaphysical convictions. Just only from a Theosophical point of view there are vast differences ranging from enthusiastic acceptance to utter rejection of K. Among skeptics, who all would reject theosophy as nonsense, there might be some variations in evaluating K. Some are critical of Kâs absolutist claims and others seem to like some of Kâs analyses of the ego. I have not ventured yet into soliciting the views from Krishnamurtian purist, but will soon do so. How a few academic historians and philosophers dealt with this subject is another field of research. 
>
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Joshua
>Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 12:01 AM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Jiddu Krishnamurti on Religious Organizations
>
>I had also been seeing if there is some bridge to close the gap between
>jk's teachings and others but lately my view is that they are
>unrelated.read almost any theosophic book etc from another author then jk
>and all I come to is I information. Then when I want to actually do
>something I go to jk. I don't know if im reading the wrong books but almost
>all hpb stuff and others related tend to give alot of info but when I
>search as Cass says the 'how' I get the trusty its
>secret,esoteric,mysteries, you need to pass through some sort of
>inititiation etc. Again maybe I'm not searching the right places but after
>8 or so years I find that at least there is something that can continually
>be worked at and promote some growth as a result of jk's teachings. I'm not
>trying to promote one over the other this is just my expirience and I'm
>sure it differs from others on this list.
>
>Js
>On Dec 30, 2011 9:02 PM, "Cass Silva" <silva_cass@R9J15Jv0dTr9gBouZxuJFpcnaEe4NcW28AVyB9EwgereqqdOsjHgIiGhwj1r2UU31fS75r8YRDF9bA.yahoo.invalid <mailto:silva_cass%40yahoo.com>  <mailto:silva_cass%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> My thinking on JK was that he was an intermediary. HPB told us the why
>> but not the 'how'. Krishnamurti focused on the lower ego, how it operated
>> and how it needed to be dismantled in order to be mastered. The first step
>> if you like on a long psychological journey. I have much to thank him for
>> as he awakened my thinking on how I became the ego that was and for the
>> most part, still is, but at least now I am aware of the ego's
>> confabulations.
>>
>> Cass
>>
>> >________________________________
>> > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@MGZe1jpJHIC55pIRibR57QSfZqJVYtZ2sFb63PkuZG-PZjdg_vWkRXIsVJLJe35yOfJT0vin8-jMdCCSyw.yahoo.invalid <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org>  <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
>> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>> >Sent: Saturday, 31 December 2011 6:25 AM
>> >Subject: RE: theos-talk Jiddu Krishnamurti on Religious Organizations
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Dear Jayananda,
>> >
>> >Thanks for sharing your interesting thoughts on the relationship of
>> Krishnamurti to Theosophy. Iâm very interested in that myself.
>> >
>> >I have observed a tendency with many Theosophists of the Adyar stream,
>> that they try to harmonize the two. My position has been to promote a
>> vigorous critique of Krishnamurti from a Theosophical point of view as you
>> can read in my pamphlet â <
>> http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/krishnamurti/onk.html> Krishnamurti:
>> An Esoteric View of his Teachings.â One could say that I was trying to
>> protect Theosophy from Kâs iconoclasm.
>> >
>> >Meanwhile Iâm experimenting with another view: protecting Kâs teachings
>> from Theosophy, because it now looks to me that Theosophy blunts or softens
>> Kâs radicalism, or, as the Germans would say, there is some âVerharmlosungâ
>> going on, that is, Theosophy makes K somewhat harmless.
>> >
>> >One helpful tool for both positions is the following comparison between
>> the two: <http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/krishnamurti/TSL_Column.htm>
>> Comparison between Theosophy and Krishnamurti
>> >
>> >Hope this will provoke some further thoughts
>> >
>> >Govert
>> >
>> >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
>> Behalf Of Jayananda Hiranandani
>> >Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 8:22 PM
>> >To: theos-talk; theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
>> >Subject: Re: theos-talk Jiddu Krishnamurti on Religious Organizations
>> >
>> >Dear MKR and Readers of the Forum:
>> >
>> >MKR, you cited a very important and relevant matter.
>> >
>> >I wish to supplement it as follows.
>> >
>> >During my 25 years in the San Francisco area and the association with the
>> TS, I cam in contact with Dr. John Hamaker.
>> >
>> >He used to say that theosophy is not static, but theosophists are.
>> >
>> >I would add two points for amplification.
>> >
>> >Firstly, I will say that SOME members of the Theosophical Societies (I am
>> using it in the plural to include Adyar and other groups) are static.
>> >
>> >Secondly, my father used to say that he is a member of the TS, not a
>> theosophist.
>> >
>> >Based on the foregoing points, there is a four-fold classification. It is:
>> >
>> >One, there are those who are, and have been theosophists, but not members
>> any TS. This should be apparent from the fact that theosophy is an ancient
>> philosophy that has been there well before the TS.
>> >
>> >Two, those who are members of the TS but not theosophists.
>> >
>> >Three, those who are both members of the TS and theosophists.
>> >
>> >Four, those who are neither.
>> >
>> >Krishnamurti has amply worked on the three objects of the TS.
>> >
>> >In the first object, he in his discussions has said that the problems
>> are, to state roughly, not Indian or Western but human. He also says
>> something like this that this is not the Russian or American earth, but our
>> earth. More examples may be cited. But in short, he transcends the
>> divisions stated in the first object.
>> >
>> >For the second object, and this has relevance in context of the passage
>> you have quoted, there is the comparative study of religion, philosophy and
>> science.. His observation is that traditional religions have not gone far
>> enough to help.
>> >
>> >For the third object about about latent powers he has expounded awareness
>> and insight, and may be others.
>> >
>> >Yours cordially,
>> >Jayananda H. Hiranandani
>> >
>> >
>> >--- On Wed, 12/14/11, MKR <mkr777@Iub3KmJUKazq-citg1ezX5nN_QKRgZVn9_b6OCcP9m07g4VhVLadCkBSxhHRUJN1FnKILpQQmms.yahoo.invalid <mailto:mkr777%40gmail.com>  <mailto:mkr777%40gmail.com> <mailto:mkr777%40gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >From: MKR <mkr777@Iub3KmJUKazq-citg1ezX5nN_QKRgZVn9_b6OCcP9m07g4VhVLadCkBSxhHRUJN1FnKILpQQmms.yahoo.invalid <mailto:mkr777%40gmail.com>  <mailto:mkr777%40gmail.com> <mailto:mkr777%40gmail.com> >
>> >Subject: theos-talk Jiddu Krishnamurti on Religious Organizations
>> >To: "theos-talk" <Theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:Theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
>> Theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> >
>> >Date: Wednesday, December 14, 2011, 6:12 AM
>> >
>> >Jiddu Krishnamurti is known to be a very keen observer of the world around
>> >him. Frequently, his comments wake us up to see situations as they really
>> >are. Here is a quote, I saw this morning which made my day.
>> >
>> >+++
>> >
>> >To Climb High One Must Begin Low
>> >
>> >Religious organizations become as fixed and as rigid as the thoughts of
>> >those who belong to them. Life is a constant change, a continual becoming,
>> >a ceaseless revolution, and because an organization can never be pliable,
>> >it stands in the way of change; it becomes reactionary to protect itself.
>> >The search for truth is individual, not congregational. To commune with
>> the
>> >real there must be aloneness, not isolation, but freedom from all
>> influence
>> >and opinion. Organizations of thought inevitably become hindrances to
>> >thought.
>> >
>> >As you yourself are aware, the greed for power is almost inexhaustible in
>> a
>> >so-called spiritual organization; this greed is covered over by all kinds
>> >of sweet and official-sounding words, but the canker of avariciousness,
>> >pride and antagonism is nourished and shared. From this grow conflict,
>> >intolerance, sectarianism, and other ugly manifestations.
>> >
>> >Would it not be wiser to have small informed groups of twenty or
>> >twenty-five persons, without dues or membership, meeting where it is
>> >convenient to discuss gently the approach to reality? To prevent any group
>> >from becoming exclusive, each member could from time to time encourage and
>> >perhaps join another small group; thus, it would be extensive, not narrow
>> >and parochial.
>> >
>> >To climb high one must begin low. Out of this small beginning one may help
>> >to create a more sane and happy world.
>> >
>> >J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life
>> >
>> >+++
>> >
>> >MKR Comments:
>> >
>> >Many of us see the above in theosophical organizations as well. In the
>> >early days, there was no money or property or dogma (formal or informal)
>> to
>> >deal with. TS grew by the sweat and blood and original thinking of a few
>> >pioneers and not because of fatcats who were able to write large checks
>> and
>> >meddle with how it should be spent - old adage, he who pays the piper,
>> >calls the tune. Compared to early days, we see an emaciated organization
>> >with dwindling members and tiny groups around the world. Now the emphasis
>> >is money and property and its management and it seems theosophy and its
>> >propagation is secondary. For example, we have not seen a single elected
>> >official visiting San Antonio in the last ten years. San Antonio is the
>> 7th
>> >largest city in the USA. Why? There is no property or money in the bank.
>> >
>> >Even in activities on Internet, the situation is pitiful. No active
>> >interactive involvement in cyberspace nor attempts to make electronic
>> >copies of publications available for free download so eager souls can
>> >access them. Mind you, the number of individuals interested in
>> theosophical
>> >subjects is minuscule and TS was started not accumulate money and
>> property,
>> >but to spread theosophy and make theosophical doctrines available to those
>> >starving for it.
>> >
>> >MKR
>> >
>> >There is no religion higher than Truth.
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>> 
>>
>
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>
>

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