Theos-Talk Archives (October 2011 Message tt00176)

Dear Michael

My views are:

I have in the recent posts here on Theos-talk forum sought to explain why your view as I see it aught not to have primary emphasis, when the aim is the promulgation of altruism. The following two links was a part of it. Seek to digest them content carefully.

The quote given by you is with regard to the Theosophical Society being involved on behalf of the members. And not the members on behalf of themselves. There is an important difference there.
Members could involve themselves in politics in their spare time. No problem there, of course unless they involved themselves in political disputes or injured the Society and the promulgation of altruism.

That said, I will forward my own view upon why I devalue politics to the degree I do it.
__________


### J. Krishnamurti's talk to The United Nations, 1985 ###
"And we never seem to face the central issue, the central challenge that demands that we live totally differently, not as Americans, Russians, Indians, or Buddhists or Christians. 
 I wonder if you have realized Christians have been responsible for killing humans far more than any other religious group. Don't get angry please! Then Islam, the Muslim world, then the Hindus and
the Buddhists come much later. So if the so-called Christians, the Catholics included, about eight hundred million people, if they said, "No more wars", you will have peace on this earth. But they won't say that. It is only Buddhism, Hinduism, said, "Don't kill. If you kill" - they believe in reincarnation - you will pay next life."
( ### Read the whole of the article - and digest it carefully. Or see the video-clips on Youtube. ###)
http://www.krishnamurtiaustralia.org/articles/world_peace.htm

And former Pope John Paul II asked Mea Culpa in recognition of this fact about the violence commited by the Christians. The new Pope certainly has a high standard to live up to.


### Peace Summit 2009 - Educating the Heart and Mind ###
(With Dalai Lama, Eckhart Tolle, and several Nobel Prize Laureates and other well-known scienctists. Dalai Lama has resigned from his political office recently. And we can only consider why he did do that.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suojNzKZ8ew&feature=relmfu
(### Better see the whole video so to understand, the aim among the some of the most intelligent public persons on the planet. ###)


### My view ###
My view is shortly stated the following, based on the above and it is also based on the quote by Blavatsky given by you in the below.

1) When aiming for altruism, one cannot claim that psychological change can be avoided and avoided being addressed officially.
2) In the last 100 years the science of Psychology has been recognized on this planet, as a real science. And this is important (!)
There is a Western science on Psychology. There is also an Eastern one based on Buddhistic Abhidharma and the Kalachakra Tantra (time-transcendence) and the Hindu Raja Yoga teachings and other teachings. - The Psychological science on Mindfulness seem to be highlighted these days. But it does not cover all and everything. - The Christians churches and the Muslims also have their versions of psychology, but the science is lacking or is heavily condensed in their Bible or Quran.
3) There cannot be any real - helpful and lasting - promulgation of altruism without taking the science of psychology into account, and therefore also the science on Subtle Mind Control with regard to religious groups and other groups. - Happiness starts from within.
4) The idea of promoting the ideals of democracy with political legislation with courts and happy-hammer Judges, and Lawyers with fat wallets, and armed police etc. etc. - which effectively condition the individual - will not be a solution establishing any real - helpful and lasting - promulgation of altruism and psychological change as things are today.
You cannot legislate psychological change on this planet. Something else is needed.
As Blavatsky said: "To seek to achieve political reforms before we have effected a reform in human nature, is like putting new wine into old bottles."
5) Those of us who consider that reincarnation and karma are facts, cannot agree upon that it is merely a coincidence that some are rich and others are poor, indeed very poor and starving. If karma and reincarnation are not facts, I and others would like to know what view we aught to exchange them with. 
6) Life is not a coincidence and Nature a fortuitous concurrence of atoms. I do however admit that some people have this view.
I can only seek to show, that it is not true. I will throw a few examples, so to perhaps be able to show this. 
a) First example: If there is some conscience in the individual I find that promotion of suffering often not is primary, and alleviation of suffering for all human beings is most often preferable according to the individual. This gives a meaning to life. - Only few persons find the opposite to give an real meaning to life. At least, When they are honest about it.
b) One more Example: Each human are living - being in an awakened-state. It goes from the awakened-state into a dream-state, and from the dream-state into a deep-sleep-state, and later out of that into a dream-state and so on until one wake up. Now I ask what is it within you, the individual that control these transitions? I is difficult to think that it is note same "I" as the "I" in the awake state, yet we claim that it is ourselves who control it. So what "I" are we talking about?
c) Another example: As ordinary humans we live with past, present, and future. But is it not true, that the past always is experiences in the present moment, in the "Now". And the future is thought of in the present moment, in the "Now". And when we arrive at the future moment in time, we still experience it in the present moment, the "Now". So the truth is that we human being always live in the present moment, in the "Now". Even when we recognize this truth, we often forget it, and are not Mindful about it. - If Psychological change happen, it will also happen in the Now, the present moment. So where does the change come from? Somewhere in the present moement, but where - or "somewhere" else? Time and thought go together says Krishnamurti in the above. There is no time without thought, and no thought without time. 
7) Depressed or angry people do not always look for a psychological change - although they claim they do so.
Altruism seek to alleviate their sufferings and not promote their sufferings and others sufferings.
8) 
Krishnamurti said:
"And sorrow is shared by all mankind, it is not your sorrow or mine, it is mankind's sorrow, mankind's anxiety, pain, loneliness, despair, aggressiveness. So you, and we, are the rest of humanity, we are not separate human beings psychologically. You may be a woman, or a man, you may be tall, dark, short and so on, but inwardly, psychologically, which is far more important, we are the rest of mankind. You are the rest of mankind, and so if you kill another, if you are in conflict with another, you are destroying yourself. You can observe this very, very carefully if you look at yourself without any distortion."
http://www.krishnamurtiaustralia.org/articles/world_peace.htm

_____________

Promulgation of Altruism:
"I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I think this was at the very center of Jesus' thinking, is this: that hate for hate only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit you and you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, that goes on ad infinitum. [tapping on pulpit] It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must have a little sense, and that's the strong person. The strong person is the person who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the tragedy of hate, that it doesn't cut it off. It only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have religion enough and morality enough to cut it off and inject within the very structure of the universe that strong and powerful element of love. "
("Loving Your Enemies" by Martin Luther King Jr.)
http://www.mlkonline.net/enemies.html


The Theosophical Society given in 1875-1891 was created for those who were in sympathy with the idea of promulgation of altruism - and thereby the establishing of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity regardless of sex, race, creed, caste or color. Also "Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society In political disputes shall be immediately expelled." --- And other issues as given in this link:
( See CONSTITUTION AND RULES OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, 1890 - http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/Rules_1890.htm)
Now not all persons are in sympathy with such an aim - and - they aught therefore not be members of such a Society.
Yet, the individual may be involved in politics in his or her spare time - but of course not in a manner where one injures the Society and the promulgation of altruism.

What is the problem? How will you solve conflicts in a lasting manner by legislation and thereby conditioning people and keep people down in lack of self-reliance? Swearing with the Bible or the Quran in court?

I am suggesting that you promote better view on what to do?
Michael, do you have a better view, on how to alleviate suffering and fear?

All the above are of course just my views. I do not claim myself infallible as a "pope" or similar
I do hope that at least some of it will be useful for something altruistic and good.



M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: M. Michael Crown 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [?? Probable Spam] theos-talk More on the New World Order


    
  H. P. Blavatsky wrote about the Theosophical Society:
  "ENQUIRER. Do you take any part in politics?

  THEOSOPHIST. As a Society, we carefully avoid them, for the reasons 
  given below. To seek to achieve political reforms before we have 
  effected a reform in human nature, is like putting new wine into old 
  bottles. Make men feel and recognise in their innermost hearts what is 
  their real, true duty to all men, and every old abuse of power, every 
  iniquitous law in the national policy, based on human, social or 
  political selfishness, will disappear of itself. Foolish is the gardener
  who seeks to weed his flower-bed of poisonous plants by cutting them 
  off from the surface of the soil, instead of tearing them out by the 
  roots. No lasting political reform can be ever achieved with the same 
  selfish men at the head of affairs as of old. "
  ("The Key to Theosophy", 2ed., 1890 - p. 231)
  http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/aKEY. htm

  So let us not be foolish. Do you not agree?

  ***   I do not agree in the slightest.   This is absurd.  To wait until all men are perfect before we stand for our rights and a just society is a pathetic philosophy and utterly impractical on the face of it.

  The utterly corrupt people at head of banking and many mega-corporations will most likely never change.  

  To sit still while they rape the earth and the minds of the young and enslave the world in perpetual fraudulent debt is amoral in the extreme. 

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