Theos-Talk Archives (July 2011 Message tt00084)

Morten and John,

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts about this subject.

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Morten,

As you know ALC did not support Besant, Judge or Crosbie. Nowadays, she is mentioned when someone wants to attack Besant, Leadbeater or Judge (ALC also made that remark about the ULT that I mentioned in my first post). Usually the quoted sentences are selected according to the goal in view, the wider picture is forgotten on purpose). 

Evidently there is a lot to do in the theosophical field, but probably the most critical point is the update of scientifical references in connection to the Secret Doctrine. Yesterday, I ended up watching a fascinating documentary about telepathy, precognition, healing, telekinesis and clairvoyance.
Directed by Renée Scheltema, it contains interviews with Dean Radin and Charles Tart. You can check the official website here:

http://www.somethingunknown.com

Paulo

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Augoeides-222@... wrote:
>
> Paulo, 
> Just my personal POV, but I locate the beginning of the end not at W.Q.J., but at the moment that Adyar threw out the "Solitary Agent" of the "Brothers" in regards to the established Theosophical Society founded by Blavatsky, Olcott, William Q. Judge and 14 others (17) in New York City, United States of America. It was a "conspiracy" of known parties that cast Radha out on less than one days notice ofhte Adyar Residence , without means, and alone and ill, the true "Great Betrayal" in my view. Regardless of what other rationalizations may have been proposed later after the fact of what those present at Adyar did that day to the Co-founder and Solitary Agent of the Theosophical Society. What Mahatma authorized such a travesty of Theosophy? None. The William Quan Judge issue proceeded directly resultant to ridding Adyar of Madame Blavatsky as the Leader and Founder. Madame Blavatsky left because of their betrayal and disloyalty and founded her own Lodge in Britain, Judge refused to sanction their action and their right to authentic command. Challenges were made in due time to limit others by the well considered and planned transition and power and property grab. That is my personal view as a "non-member" theosophist. The question of Lawyers, Olcott, Sinnett , and others of Theosophy in that day should have been "Que Bono"? It is easy to see that reality happen. 
> 
> As to Alice Leighton Cleaver and Basil Crump I have from the first reading of her books very high instinctive respect for her "Truth" telling and I also hold the belief that the Tashi Lama and his "perceptive" Staff looked at her and were certain her spiritual essentials were of above normal context. One of my future goals ids to read her works on the esoteric Theosophical symbology of Wagner's Opera's there are many elements that found their way into his works which make them most interesting. 
> 
> In the Google Listing for Alice Leighton Cleather if you go beyond just her books that are listed you will find additional listings indexing more facts about her. She did have effects on other her reference her in later Journals, Circulars, Society's, etc, I recommend people read "H.P. Blavatsky Tibet and Tulku" in order to get a further grasp of co-habitation by adepts of anothers mind and form and the many variety's of methods they use so to see what possibility's reflect towards William Quan Judge's receptivities. 
> 
> Regards, 
> John 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "paulobaptista_v" <paulobaptista_v@...> 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 4:49:32 AM 
> Subject: Re: theos-talk Concerning Alice Leighton Cleather, etc. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John, 
> 
> Thank you for the information. But what I really want to know is the answer to my questions. 
> 
> - What´s your opinion about ALC? 
> - Is it completely clear that WQJ was victim of a conspiracy? 
> 
> Paulo 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , Augoeides-222@ wrote: 
> > 
> > Paulo, 
> > Also you can find other of her books not on Daniels archive here on Google Books: 
> > 
> > >>> http://www.google.com/search?q=Alice++Leighton+Cleather&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1 <<< 
> > 
> > John 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Daniel" <danielhcaldwell@> 
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:46:28 AM 
> > Subject: theos-talk Concerning Alice Leighton Cleather, etc. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks Paulo for your comments concerning 
> > Alice Leighton Cleather. 
> > 
> > The 4 books you mentioned by 
> > Mrs. Cleather can be found at: 
> > 
> > http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophypdfs/early_theosophical_publications_authors.htm 
> > 
> > Look under CLEATHER. 
> > 
> > And her copy of THE INNER GROUP TEACHINGS can be 
> > found at http://blavatskyarchives.com/inner/innercontents.htm 
> > 
> > Also at the first link in this posting under BLAVATSKY 1890-1891 
> > 
> > For more about the relationship between Judge and Tingley, 
> > see: 
> > 
> > http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokeswqjktcon.htm 
> > 
> > This is also available under the first link given in 
> > this posting. Look under STOKES. 
> > 
> > Hope this helps. 
> > 
> > Daniel 
> > Blavatsky Study Center / Blavatsky Archives 
> > http://hpb.cc 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , "paulobaptista_v" <paulobaptista_v@> wrote: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Some time ago, I found the writings of Alice Leighton Cleather (ALC), one of the members of the Inner Group. Valuable manuscripts of those meetings were penned by ALC and are published in The Esoteric Papers of Mme Blavatsky, compiled by Daniel Caldwell. 
> > > 
> > > She also wrote "Blavatsky as I knew Her", "HPB-Her life and work for humanity" and "HPB - A Great betrayal". Together with Basil W. Crump, ALC also attacked the writings of Alice Ann Bailey. 
> > > 
> > > What is curious about ALC is that after HPB's death, she didn�´t support Besant, Judge or the ULT founded by Robert Crosbie in 1909. In "HPB-Her life and work for humanity ", ALC writes that after HPB passed away "the one most fitted for such a function [Agent of the Masters and Outer Head of the ES] was Mr. Judge", but further ahead she admitted that she "can find no warrant in anything she [HPB] wrote, or said (â�¦) [that] after her death, (â�¦) even the most advanced of her pupils was authorised or fitted to succeed her as the Agent and mouthpiece of the Masters". 
> > > 
> > > A theosophist that endorses the Judge cause, accused ALC of being too harsh on Judge. In the same book, Alice considered that Judge fell in the hands of Mrs. Tingley, a "professional psychic and trance medium". Tingley, played an important role in a letter written by WQJ in 1894, entitled "By Master�´s Direction" in which a campaign in favour of Western Occultism is announced (using ALC words). ALC also criticizes the group at Los Angeles (ULT) for accepting this paper (published in Theosophy, September 1922). 
> > > 
> > > In "A Great betrayal" she fiercely attacks both Besant and Leadbeater. 
> > > 
> > > I never found negative remarks about ALC, she seems very sincere in everything she writes and not afraid of telling what she believes is the truth. 
> > > 
> > > I haven�´t bought Pelletier's book about the Judge Case, but I've read Katinka Hesselink's review about it and it seems that some doubts still remain. I don�´t have a position for or against Judge. However if it is completely clear that Judge was a victim of some scheme, I think justice must be made, even if more than 100 years have passed since those events. 
> > > 
> > > I would like to ask two things: 
> > > 
> > > - What's your oppinion about Alice Cleather? Is she a trustworthy source? 
> > > - A lot of debate has been going around for decades about the events that led to the split of the original Theosophical Society. Is it now completely clear that WQJ was victim of a mischievous scheme? 
> > > 
> > > PBV 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , MKR <mkr777@> wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > In July 2011 issue of the Theosophist, "On the Watch Tower" section, the 
> > > > International President has commented on the Judge issue. 
> > > > 
> > > > Here is the quote: 
> > > > 
> > > > Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?"Recently several letters have been addressed to the President asking that 
> > > > justice be done to Mr Judge. About one and a quarter centuries have passed 
> > > > since he was prominent among members. There are some who favour the actions 
> > > > that he took, and others who do not; are we going to make a judgement on 
> > > > behalf of all the members at this point? Is this really feasible? The 
> > > > decision in favour or not, will be only on paper, and people will continue 
> > > > to think of what is possible as they wish and see. The Society cannot 
> > > > regulate this, and is not called upon to do so. 
> > > > 
> > > > So, the best thing is to discriminate to the extent that our own 
> > > > intelligence lets us, which may be right or wrong. What does it matter to 
> > > > others? Since one cannot shape, or want to shape, what other people think, 
> > > > the Theosophical Society cannot, after one hundred and thirty years, decide 
> > > > what its members should see or think about past happenings. 
> > > > 
> > > > There is the case of C. W. Leadbeater, who I think was much misunderstood 
> > > > and maligned. Others may think he was a bad character. Will our thinking 
> > > > change what he was? There are many people who, being human, had faults and 
> > > > weaknesses. By finding out what exactly was the matter, it helps neither 
> > > > them nor us. Our present attitude towards things is what matters, not the 
> > > > conclusions we may make about what people in the past did. 
> > > > 
> > > > So, let us act in the present and keep our conclusions about past 
> > > > personalities and events tentative and in the back-ground. We can then move 
> > > > forward from where we are, which is what we have to be truly concerned with. 
> > > > What is the direction in which we are proceeding? Are we moving and if so, 
> > > > is it towards a greater understanding of life?Ã?¢ââ??¬ï¿½ 
> > > > 
> > > > The full Watch Tower Notes can be accessed at: 
> > > > 
> > > > < 
> > > > http://ts-adyar.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Theosophist/Theosophist%202011/Watch%20Tower/Watch%20Tower%20July%202011.pdf 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > MKR 
> > > > 
> > > > 
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> > > > 
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