Theos-Talk Archives (June 2011 Message tt00001)

Dear Govert, friends,

Thank you Govert.

My intention was not to "run in circles".

I just wanted to give, one more time, the references on Pellitier´s
response, so that all readers of Theos-talk could know about it (even if
this meant that I was repeating myself).

Frankly, I don't see a problem on that.

Nevertheless, I believe that this is an important dialog and I do
appreciate knowing about your position an evaluation on this matter.

I also think that all the attention that you give to this issue is an
evidence of the extraordinary importance of Pellitier´s book.

Whatever the reasons one evokes, the truth is that a profound
investigation should be made and that the Theosophical archives of Adyar
and of other theosophical organizations should be open to independent
researchers.

As Leslie Price has pointed out, "this might go some way to healing
the wounds of the schism." [1]

And this, I am sure, will be only one of the several results that will
influence the future of the theosophical movement.



Best regards,

Joaquim



NOTE:

[1] "A Call to Reopen Judge Case", by Leslie Price, published at
http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=8
<http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=8>




--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Joaquim,
>
> It looks like we're running in circles now, each referring to
documents and posts we already referred to earlier.
>
> To bust out of that circle, let me just state as best as possible what
I have found so far to be a reasonable evaluation of Pelletier's The
Judge Case and the Call for Action initiatve, which is partially based
on that study.
>
> 1) Caldwell, Forray and now myself (after reading the Pelletier
chapter on HPB's wills) come to the conclusion that the Pelletier study
is deeply flawed, because it is too speculative and partisan.
>
> 2) Pelletier's response to his critics Hesselink, Caldwell and Forray
is not adequate as it does not adress Forray's crucial observation that
Pelletier's study is patterned after the study The Theosophical Movement
1875-1925 (and its update), which is regarded by both Forray and
Nethercott as biased.
>
> 3) Because Aveline's Call for Action is based on the assumed
objectivity of The Judge Case and The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925
(and its update), this initiative is as flawed as its sources and should
be recast in more objective and non-partisan language.
>
> I think the problem in the Judge issue so far is that most in-house
historians of the Theosophical Movement are not properly trained to keep
their metaphysical convictions at bay while doing research. This will
mostly lead to confirmation bias, speculative constructs and unfounded
conclusions. Better to keep one's research within the realm of the
provable, however frustratingly little that might be, and declare one's
metaphysical conviction as conviction.
>
> Best
>
> Govert
>
>
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jdmsoares
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:08 PM
>   Subject: theos-talk Understanding the Theosophical Movement
>
>
>
>
>   Dear Govert, friends,
>
>   Thanks.
>
>   Pelletier's response to Mr.Forray and Daniel can be found here:
>
>   http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm
>   <http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm>
>
>   He points out that,
>
>   "Forray claims that not enough information was presented in TJC
>   about Besant's life before entering Theosophy. I wish to draw
attention
>   to my article published in Fohat which dealt with this very subject.
>   References to it are provided, as they are too many other items
which
>   were not specifically included in the text of TJC. Numerous books
about
>   Besant are also readily available; it was therefore deemed
unnecessary
>   to repeat it in this context."
>
>   Let's hope more students can read "The Judge Case" by Ernest
>   Pelletier, so they can proceed with their own investigation of
truth.
>
>   Besides this, we can also see the importance of the "Justice to
>   Judge" initiative, so that Adyar opens the archives to independent
>   investigators.
>
>   For those who wish to understand more about the evolution of the
>   theosophical movement, you can read:
>
>   An Open Letter to Annie Besant
>
>   How in 1909 William Kingsland
>
>   Denounced Annie Besant's Farce
>
>   The direct link is
>  
http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/09/open-letter-to-annie-besant.h\
\
>   tml
>  
<http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/09/open-letter-to-annie-besant.\
\
>   html>
>
>   Best regards, Joaquim
>
>   --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" schuller@
>   wrote:
>   >
>   > Dear Joaquim,
>   >
>   > Thanks for sharing that chapter from the "Judge Case" on the wills
of
>   HPB.
>   >
>   > After reading it a few times I have to conclude that Daniel
Caldwell's
>   and Brett Forray's conclusions about the book "The Judge Case" are
at
>   least valid and applicable to this chapter on HPB's wills.
>   >
>   > Daniel concluded:
>   >
>   > "As I have read and carefully studied the narratives written by
>   Pelletier in this book I have come to the conclusion that Pelletier
>   employs (as much as Paul Johnson ever did) speculative possibilities
>   with little or no documentation whatsoever."
>   >
>   > As one progresses trough the chapter the insertions of one
>   'speculative possibility' after another become quite disconcerting.
>   >
>   > Mr. Forray observed that Pelletier's rendering of the story is
heavily
>   skewered in favor of Judge, the protagonist who he wants to
exonerate,
>   and that he excludes other points of view. Many others, in this case
>   Besant and Olcott, are depicted as immoral schemers.
>   >
>   > It looks like that The Judge Case reads more like a piece of
advocacy
>   than non-partisan historical research.
>   >
>   > Best
>   >
>   > Govert
>   >
>   > Sources:
>   > The JUDGE CASE by Ernest E. Pelletier in 5 Parts. Reviewed by
Daniel
>   H. Caldwell
>   >
>   > http://blavatskyarchives.com/pelletier_judge_case.htm
>   >
>   > Brett Forray's review of Pelletier's "The Judge Case" on the
>   Theosophical History website.
>   >
>   > http://www.theohistory.org/Judge_Case_Review-XI-2.pdf
>   >
>   > Pelletier's response can be found here:
>   >
>   > http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm
>   >
>   > My evaluation of that response is here:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/56122
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: jdmsoares
>   > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>   > Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 4:27 AM
>   > Subject: Re: theos-talk Interview With Ernest Pelletier
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Dear friends,
>   >
>   > While we don't have "The Judge Case" accessible online for
>   > everyone, we have published a chapter of the work of Ernest
>   Pellitier.
>   >
>   > The chapter is entitled "The Wills of Helena P. Blavatsky".
>   >
>   > Here is an excerpt:
>   >
>   > 00000000000000000000000
>   >
>   > Shortly after reviewing The Secret Doctrine Annie Besant joined
the
>   > Theosophical Society on March 10th, 1889. Besant had made a name
for
>   > herself as one of England's finest orators and her abilities were
>   needed
>   > by the growing Society. Besant showed great promise as a student
of
>   > Theosophy and was soon sitting at H.P.B.'s side acknowledging her
as
>   > her new guru. She was quickly brought in as a pledged member of
the
>   > Esoteric Section. Just one month before her death H.P.B. appointed
>   > Besant (April 1st, 1891) as the Chief Secretary of the Inner Group
>   of
>   > the Esoteric Section and Recorder of the Teachings,[1] and
arranged
>   for
>   > her to go to America to meet William Q. Judge and deliver
>   Blavatsky's
>   > message to the American Convention held April 26th - 27th, 1891,
as
>   her
>   > special delegate. At the time Besant accepted that Judge was an
>   > Occultist, a view she later discounted. On May 8th Blavatsky died
in
>   > London while Besant was on her way back from America.
>   >
>   > Besant had sailed for England on May 6th and, upon receiving word
of
>   > Blavatsky's death, Judge followed on May 13th, 1891. Olcott would
>   not
>   > sail from India until June 15th. Evidentiary facts have been
>   gathered
>   > and are presented here for consideration regarding that period
>   between
>   > Blavatsky's death on May 8th and the time of Judge's arrival in
>   London
>   > on May 21st, 1891.
>   >
>   > Blavatsky executed her first Will before she left India in early
>   1885.
>   > According to Olcott she drew up a Will on January 31st, 1885.
Olcott
>   > stated:
>   >
>   > "The witnesses were P. Sreenivasa Row, E.H. Morgan, T. Subba Rao,
>   > and C. Ramiah. It contains a clause to the effect that she wishes
>   her
>   > ashes to be buried within the compound of the Headquarters at
Adyar;
>   and
>   > another request that annually, on the anniversary of her death,
some
>   of
>   > her friends should assemble here and read a chapter of the Light
of
>   Asia
>   > and one of Bhagavad Gîtâ." [2]
>   >
>   > This is the Will and Testament which is being kept at Adyar to
this
>   day,
>   > and considered Blavatsky's official Will. But it was not the Last
>   > Will and Testament she executed.
>   >
>   > (.)
>   >
>   > 000000000000000000000000
>   >
>   > The complete chapter can be read at
>   >
>  
http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/02/wills-of-helena-p-blavatsky.h\
\
>   \
>   > tml
>   >
>  
<http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/02/wills-of-helena-p-blavatsky.\
\
>   \
>   > html> .
>   >
>   > Best regards, Joaquim
>   >
>   > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR mkr777@ wrote:
>   > >
>   > > I just visited the interview with Pelletier, many have heard of
>   his
>   > > voluminous work 'The Judge Case.' Not only is it very voluminous
>   and
>   > > contains a lot of material, it is also pricey. Thus very few
have
>   seen
>   > the
>   > > book and not many average theosophists can afford to buy it. The
>   net
>   > result
>   > > is the very purpose of publication is defeated. Most
theosophists
>   do
>   > want to
>   > > read first hand material and come to their own conclusions. We
are
>   yet
>   > to
>   > > see a digital copy of the book which will make it easily
>   accessible to
>   > > members world-wide almost instantaneously.
>   > >
>   > > It looks like the decision makers who who come up with pricing
of
>   > > theosophical publications seem to be totally blind to the need
to
>   make
>   > > theosophical material easily accessible to middle class
>   theosophists
>   > most of
>   > > whom work full time and live on a month to month budget and
cannot
>   > afford
>   > > pricey books.
>   > >
>   > > Other leaders and authors in theosophical circles also are not
>   > sensitive to
>   > > the price issue. This may be because most of them may have
>   received a
>   > > complimentary copy or may be the books are paid for by the
>   > organizations
>   > > they are part of.
>   > >
>   > > Until the publications are converted to electronic format and
made
>   > available
>   > > for free or for a $1, we cannot expect a good circulation.
>   > >
>   > > Let us all pray that those in charge of deciding on the pricing,
>   soon
>   > wake
>   > > up to reality of the Internet world and digital publication.
>   > >
>   > > MKR
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 7:00 PM,
theos-talk-owner@yahoogroups.com
>   > wrote:
>   > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > (note prior message was truncated. now checking on group's
>   > > > settings...weird) admin
>   > > > ===================================
>   > > > Dear friends,
>   > > >
>   > > > We can see that the world scenario of the theosophical
movement
>   is
>   > > > slowly changing.
>   > > >
>   > > > Old lies are being debunked, step by step. Some masks are
>   falling.
>   > The
>   > > > defense of truth is gaining strength. The true history of the
>   > movement
>   > > > starts to being known by an increasing number of students.
>   > > >
>   > > > Many have contributed so far to the revitalization process of
>   the
>   > > > movement as a whole. One of those devoted students is Ernest
>   > Pelletier,
>   > > > author of the important book "The Judge Case".
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > We have just published in our websites a recent interview with
>   this
>   > > > lifelong worker for the Cause.
>   > > >
>   > > > The text is entitled:
>   > > >
>   > > > Ernest Pelletier´s Viewpoint
>   > > >
>   > > > A 2011 Dialogue On the Karma and
>   > > >
>   > > > Dharma of the Theosophical Movement
>   > > >
>   > > > The direct links are:
>   > > >
>   www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2011/05/ernest-pelletiers-viewpoint.html
>   > and
>   > > > www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=237
>   > > >
>   > > > Best regards, Joaquim
>   > > >
>   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > > >
>   > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "jdmsoares" jdmsoares@
wrote:
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > > We have just published in our websites a recent interview
with
>   > this
>   > > > > lifelong worker for the Cause.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > The text is entitled:
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Ernest Pelletier´s Viewpoint
>   > > > >
>   > > > > A 2011 Dialogue On the Karma and
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Dharma of the Theosophical Movement
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > > The direct links are:
>   > > > >
>   >
www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2011/05/ernest-pelletiers-viewpoint.html
>   and
>   > > > www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=237
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Best regards, Joaquim
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]