Theos-Talk Archives (October 2010 Message tt00133)

Dear Cass
The only thing about the organization that i do not like Âis their 
questionnaire.
It is not important that you fill out all these questions. Just generalize.
Best D




________________________________
From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@DHnMOsAD3xvzwfK-ezV44swtaI3baOeABFE2fTupbRYykkjGy2EIBuyTDufgY178ddCnlRaetAPjsQ.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 7:16:58 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!

 


Have you seen the length and breadth of the Application Form?ÂÂ I have provided 
less to the Taxation Department. I have joined them on Facebook before signing 
my life away.
>
>Cass
>
>From: Duane Carpenter <monad_monad_monad@GCNFDIkP0geaN6TJj3hQv4mVxmhXEmaegjhHNb6Pzr0i7RIoG-x7xSlAR9ZToQsciVDjXFEaaYYLEyTqoOPFiOlw.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wed, 13 October, 2010 1:28:45 PM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>
>Â 
>Dear Cass
>You should check it out for yourself and come to your own conclusion which I am 


>sure you will do
>Â
>My comments to Sufilight last email is underlined and in blue.
>Â
>ÂBest Duane
>http://www.moryafederation.net/
>Â
>I would be more than happy to hear what is being said. However, it would need 
>to be via an online source.
>
>Cass
>
>>
>>From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@d2C37go_lyHp1G-kQZa6NUMm_nbbYvSiyDtxWi6m_j1ZmMexMc8X2xdWNQms4I_q3qbF7Yn7REGbd3NPKU0yuXWPOjs.yahoo.invalid>
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Wed, 13 October, 2010 3:59:35 AM
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>>
>>Â 
>>Dear Duane and friends
>>
>>My views are:
>>
>>1.
>>Duane wrote:
>>"You have already laid 
>>out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do 


>>not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school 
>>should be so I cannot join. "
>>
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>--- "all the reasons" you say? This is not true. Try to read my e-mail again.
>>I openly asked some questions giving you the opportunity to make your case 
>>valid. And now you refuse to answer my very understandably important 
questions.
>>
>>If you are saying that anyone aught to join just any school who claims to be 
>>Esoterical, just because it claims to be so, I find your view to be an unhealthy 
>>
>>
>>
>>one. And now, you tell me why I am wrong in my view, if you think so?
>Â
>This is a good and healthy position to take. Skepticism is important and I honor 
>
>
>what you say.
>
>>So why should one join this particular Esoterical School and not another of the 
>
>
>
>>many AAB groups or non-theosophical ones? Why is this one so special?
>Â
>I can only say this school offers training as a preparatory esoteric school and 


>one cannot understand its value unless they participate in it for some time.
>>
>>2.
>>Duane wrote:
>>Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity 
>>into?
>>
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>No, I honestly do not.
>>You can answer the questions. If you do not answer them, we may all wonder why? 
>
>
>
>>
>>I have for very many years not joined a group who was not able to - clearly - 
>>show me its Constitution and Rules!
>ÂIt has no rules as you understand the term and its constitution and what it is 


>attempting to do is clearly outlined in its introductory statements you have 
>already read. There are no pledges to be taken.
>the Pledge which need to be taken, if 
>>any! - And I will discourage anyone from joining such a group, calling it self 


>>esoterical and in contact with the the Trans-Himalayan School, when it omits 
>>these things.
>>And now you aught to tell me whether I am wrong in my views? And if so, why?
>Â
>You are seeking intellectual information and justification when it is a deeper 
>subjective experience most students are attempting to find.
>>
>>The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/) 
>>claims the following:
>>"Sensing the pressing opportunity arising at this critical period in the history 
>>
>>
>>
>>of humanity, a number of experienced students of the Trans-Himalayan Wisdom have 
>>
>>
>>
>>combined forces, creating the Morya Federation to offer sincere and 
>>self-disciplining students of the Ageless Wisdom the opportunity to deepen their 
>>
>>
>>
>>understanding of the Master DKâs voluminous writings and to relate them to the 


>>great works of other theosophically inspired authors such as Helena Blavatsky 
>>(HPB), author of The Secret Doctrine; Helena Roerich, amanuensis for the Agni 
>>Yoga Books inspired by Master Morya, and, other significant authors in the field 
>>
>>
>>
>>of philosophical esotericism."
>>
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>Now anyone can claim this. The question is whether ALL these students will come 
>
>
>
>>forward and name themselves and not hide behind the Internet as scared 
>chickens?
>Â
>Why should any students come forward to name themselves? Have you made a formal 


>inquiry to the school directly yourself demanding their names? The fact that you 
>
>
>denigrate hardworking students who you have never met or conversed with and 
>whose primary goal is on service as âscared chickensâ is ludicrous and only 
>reveals your immaturity and Âprejudices.
>Why would you want to work with others you have so easily classified as âscared 


>chickensâ Are you not just trying to Âsupport your belief that this could not be 
>
>
>an esoteric school since you Âalready know AAB work is fraudulent and full of 
>lies?
>Please lets be honest here!!!
>
>>I am not prepared to be taught by invisible no-bodies. And I think very few 
>>persons are! - I will have to know who those self-proclaimed students really 
>>are. Why not be honest about it?
>ÂYou are inferring these students are dishonest because they do not post there 
>name for your benefit? If they did you would quickly claim they are all self 
>promoters look how cheap and public they are. I regret you will always find 
>flaws in other groups who are even vaguely affiliated with AAB because you have 


>made up your mind way before now that they are up to very little good. You 
>occasional pay lip service to a few of the AAB groups in some positive way but 
>the bulk of your postings indicate she should not even be mentioned in the same 


>breathe as HPB
>If you had even a rudimentary knowledge of esoteric schools historically you 
>would realize they do not go around proclaiming who they are but work quietly 
>behind the scenes. Yet they are not attempting to be secretive in any way.Â
>>
>>It seems that the main person behind it is Michael Robbins and his wife (when we 
>>
>>
>>
>>follow the bottom link to a Facebook website at the website 
>>http://www.moryafederation.net/.)
>If you reread the application material you would see that there are a number of 


>different groups from around the world who work jointly.
>>
>>A QUESTION:
>>It is a bit new to me, that Michael Robbins claims to be in contact with the 
>>Himalayan Masters. Have any of you heard about this before?
>Michael Robbins only claims he is trying to do the work of the masters
>>
>>The problem is as I see it the following:
>>The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/) 
>>invites people to become members of its group - without - clearly stating 
>>whether it want money for it, - without - clearly stating whether it is a 
>>genuine Esoteric School - where its leader(s) have a daily continous contact 
>>with a Master. And without clearly stating whether it is a non-political group. 
>
>
>
>>Because, - if this group does not forward such claims - it can only be called a 
>
>
>
>>spurious Esoteric School at best. Anyone can claim to be Esoteric, but the 
>>question anyone will have to ask is whether we have a GENUINE School here or 
>>something else. Are you now saying that it is irrelevant to ask such questions? 
>
>
>
>>And are you not in your reply to me at the same time saying: Do not think, just 
>
>
>
>>JOIN US?
>The Moray School charges no fees for their work and it is all volunteer. How can 
>
>
>they claim to be a legitimate esoteric school? If they did that they would be 
>chastised by people like you for making wild claims. If they donât make this 
>claim by your logic they surely are not an esoteric school. You canât have it 
>both ways!!!
>>Duane wrote:
>>"You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all 
>>the 
>>
>>reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>will never know will you?"
>>
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>Now, according to my book, one cannot as an honest and TRUE initiate advertize 


>>about meditation and service to humanity, especially when they forward the AAB 


>>books as something which should merely be BELIEVED (and not known or properly 
>>examined) to be healthy, while they completely ignore criticism - and almost 
>>automatically gives any critical view about the AAB books the big boot. Is this 
>
>
>
>>not the real truth? And is such a view a healthy one?
>Â
>Here we go back to the prejudices and criticism of something you have never 
>understood and so make wild claims. AAB asks each student to study the material 


>and come to their own conclusions. No one is asked to believe anything they 
>cannot prove in their own lives. If you would study the AAB material 
>impersonally and from the mental plane you would see its contribution. You have 


>obviously had some painful personal experiences and your prejudices are clearly 


>seated in your emotional body. Â
>>
>>Leaders who continuously avoid responding to honest and well meant criticism are 
>>
>>
>>
>>not trustworthy. There are certain leaders who, will not listen to criticism, 
>>they have a bad blockage when it come to this issue. And I do now what we call 


>>those leaders. We call them: Narrow-minded and Blocked leaders.
>Â
>You are a very skilled artist at projecting onto others the very problems you 
>cannot see within yourself. Instead of sitting on the sidelines of the esoteric 


>criticism others you do not understand you need to get involved and contribute 
>something creative.
>This is the same old dogma and prejudices on your behalf repackaged over and 
>over that you obviously just cannot see. You champion yourself as chief 
>administrator to exspose Âall the limitations of all of the ÂAAB groups. You 
>need to resign from that position.
>>
>>The difference I have experienced between Blavatsky theosophists and AAB 
>>followers is exactly this lack of self-critical examination about the AAB books 
>
>
>
>>and all other authors among AAB-followers - something Blavatsky theosophists 
>>find to be an unhealthy attitude on their part.
>ÂâBlavatsky Theosophist find AAB followers to lack self critical examinationâ 
>I see you now speak for the whole rank and file of Theosophist. It must be so 
>wonderful to so all know to be able to make such wild and unsupportive 
>statements.
>>
>>- - - - - - -
>>An example is the following from the website:
>>"Summary of Courses Offered From Year 2 to Year 5
>>
>>Descriptions of courses to be offered from Year 2 through Year 5 will be shared 
>
>
>
>>in detail with those who fill out an Application. Looking briefly at offerings 


>>beyond the first year, such courses, consistently advancing in depth and 
>>comprehensiveness, includeâ
>>
>>* two years of Esoteric Psychology
>>* three years of Esoteric Healing
>>* three years of White Magic"
>>
>>......etc. etc. and so on show me, that this School operates through the AAB 
>>books and NOT at all through an equal and open focus on the literature 
>>mentioned: I.e. Blavatsky (HPB), Helena Roerich, and, other significant authors 
>
>
>
>>in the field of philosophical esotericism. Not even Blavatsky's Esoteric Section 
>>
>>
>>
>>operate in such a manner. 
>If AAB stole all, of the Eoteric section teachings which I am sure you believe 
>she must have had something of value to say.
>Â
>This is a perfect case of what Voltaire called âignorance in actionâ. You will 
>never join this group and find out the potential truth of the school but you can 
>
>
>criticize what it should or should not do.
>>
>>
>>So, therefore I will not join this group.
>>But if they will provide me with their Constitution and Rules - or the Pledge 
>>which might need to be taken I might change my mind and heart.
>>
>>These are just my views.
>>Other seekers might join this group and put their head under their arms.
>>
>>- - -
>>Wisdom is a scare thing. It is most often not those who have the largest number 
>
>
>
>>of followers who are the most wise ones.
>Â
>Theosophy had hundreds of thousands of followers in the early part of last 
>century. Are Âyou saying they had no wisdom?
>>
>>M. Sufilight
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: Duane Carpenter 
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:09 AM
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>>
>>Dear Sufilight
>>You will take the challenge âIFâ your conditions are met. You have already laid 
>
>
>
>>out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do 


>>not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school 
>>should be so I cannot join. 
>>
>>Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity 
>>into?
>>HPB would be the first to admit advanced esoteric work is not done by simply 
>>studying theories and memorizing facts but by an immersion through meditation 
>>into our higher and more spiritual selves. Morya Federation although based on 
>>the works of AAB and HPB and demanding intellectual clarity is a school of 
>>meditation first and foremost.
>>
>>You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all the 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>will never know will you?. It is said in the Pythagorean esoteric school of the 
>
>
>
>>past we would have to remain silent for at least a year or two when we first 
>>entered. Why is that? Perhaps because we might arrive at this school so full of 
>
>
>
>>ourselves and what we know we might be passing judgment, categorizing and 
>>telling everybody how thing should be when we should be humbling ourselves to 
>>learn.
>>That may be one of the reason few people join esoteric schools because all 
>>potential candidates have all kinds of preconceived ideas about what it is 
>>suppose to be. 
>>
>>If you joined would you not have all of your questions answered??
>>Best Duane
>>
>>________________________________
>>From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@d2C37go_lyHp1G-kQZa6NUMm_nbbYvSiyDtxWi6m_j1ZmMexMc8X2xdWNQms4I_q3qbF7Yn7REGbd3NPKU0yuXWPOjs.yahoo.invalid>
>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 3:05:22 PM
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>>
>>Dear Duane, AAB-followers and friends
>>
>>My views are:
>>
>>I do hope, that you do not mind me calling you all my friends?
>>
>>Duane wrote:
>>"I challenge any readers here to suspend their preconceived ideas or disbelief 


>>and join the Moray Federation of Esoteric Schools for just 6 months or a year 
>>before they start passing out judgments about teachings they either do not 
>>understand or cannot comprehend. This school teahces both AAB and HPB."
>>
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>I will take such a challenge at any time, if is possible for me, provided I am 


>>given some answers first to the below questions, and if those answers are proper 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>and truthful.
>>If I, who is not a Seeker of beliefs but of Knowledge, should suspend my 
>>(appearntly) by you claimed "preconceived ideas or disbelief" I will first have 
>
>
>
>>to ask you some questions. I ask them with a kind heart, and I do hope that they 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>are not being misunderstodd by any of the Alice A. Bailey followers.
>>
>>Here they are...
>>
>>*** 1 ***
>>I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
>>- Why should one join a group, which do not clearly tell me why or whether it 
>>has deviated from the Original Programe of the Theosophical Society as it was 
>>given by H. P. Blavatsky, Morya and KH.? 
>>
>>- Or tell me why why or whether it has deviated from the programe of the 
>>Esoteric Section as it was given by H. P. Blavatsky?
>>
>>The Original Programe of The theosophical Society - a few excerpts:
>>"In order to leave no room for equivocation, the members of the T.S. have to be 
>
>
>
>>reminded of the origin of the Society in 1875. Sent to the U.S. of America in 
>>1873 for the purpose of organizing a group of workers on a psychic plane, two 
>>years later the writer received orders from her Master and Teacher to form the 


>>nucleus of a regular Society whose objects were broadly stated as follows:
>>1. Universal Brotherhood;
>>2. No distinction to be made by the member 
>Â
>
>________________________________
>From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@d2C37go_lyHp1G-kQZa6NUMm_nbbYvSiyDtxWi6m_j1ZmMexMc8X2xdWNQms4I_q3qbF7Yn7REGbd3NPKU0yuXWPOjs.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 12:59:35 PM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>
>Â 
>Dear Duane and friends
>
>My views are:
>
>1.
>Duane wrote:
>"You have already laid 
>out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do 
>not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school 
>should be so I cannot join. "
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>--- "all the reasons" you say? This is not true. Try to read my e-mail again.
>I openly asked some questions giving you the opportunity to make your case 
>valid. And now you refuse to answer my very understandably important questions.
>
>If you are saying that anyone aught to join just any school who claims to be 
>Esoterical, just because it claims to be so, I find your view to be an unhealthy 
>
>
>one. And now, you tell me why I am wrong in my view, if you think so?
>
>So why should one join this particular Esoterical School and not another of the 


>many AAB groups or non-theosophical ones? Why is this one so special?
>
>2.
>Duane wrote:
>Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity 
>into?
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>No, I honestly do not.
>You can answer the questions. If you do not answer them, we may all wonder why? 


>
>I have for very many years not joined a group who was not able to - clearly - 
>show me its Constitution and Rules! Or the Pledge which need to be taken, if 
>any! - And I will discourage anyone from joining such a group, calling it self 
>esoterical and in contact with the the Trans-Himalayan School, when it omits 
>these things.
>And now you aught to tell me whether I am wrong in my views? And if so, why?
>
>The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/) 
>claims the following:
>"Sensing the pressing opportunity arising at this critical period in the history 
>
>
>of humanity, a number of experienced students of the Trans-Himalayan Wisdom have 
>
>
>combined forces, creating the Morya Federation to offer sincere and 
>self-disciplining students of the Ageless Wisdom the opportunity to deepen their 
>
>
>understanding of the Master DKâs voluminous writings and to relate them to the 
>great works of other theosophically inspired authors such as Helena Blavatsky 
>(HPB), author of The Secret Doctrine; Helena Roerich, amanuensis for the Agni 
>Yoga Books inspired by Master Morya, and, other significant authors in the field 
>
>
>of philosophical esotericism."
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>Now anyone can claim this. The question is whether ALL these students will come 


>forward and name themselves and not hide behind the Internet as scared 
chickens?
>I am not prepared to be taught by invisible no-bodies. And I think very few 
>persons are! - I will have to know who those self-proclaimed students really 
>are. Why not be honest about it?
>
>It seems that the main person behind it is Michael Robbins and his wife (when we 
>
>
>follow the bottom link to a Facebook website at the website 
>http://www.moryafederation.net/.)
>
>A QUESTION:
>It is a bit new to me, that Michael Robbins claims to be in contact with the 
>Himalayan Masters. Have any of you heard about this before?
>
>The problem is as I see it the following:
>The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/) 
>invites people to become members of its group - without - clearly stating 
>whether it want money for it, - without - clearly stating whether it is a 
>genuine Esoteric School - where its leader(s) have a daily continous contact 
>with a Master. And without clearly stating whether it is a non-political group. 


>Becuase, - if this group does not forward such claims - it can only be called a 


>spurious Esoteric School at best. Anyone can claim to be Esoteric, but the 
>question anyone will have to ask is whether we have a GENUINE School here or 
>something else. Are you now saying that it is irrelvant to ask such questions? 
>And are you not in your reply to me at the same time saying: Do not think, just 


>JOIN US?
>
>Duane wrote:
>"You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all 
>the 
>
>reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you 
>
>
>
>will never know will you?"
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>Now, according to my book, one cannot as an honest and TRUE initiate advertize 
>about meditation and service to humanity, especially when they forward the AAB 
>books as something which should merely be BELIEVED (and not known or properly 
>examined) to be healthy, while they completely ignore criticism - and almost 
>automatically gives any critical view about the AAB books the big boot. Is this 


>not the real truth? And is such a view a healthy one?
>
>Leaders who continously avoid responding to honest and wellmeant criticism are 
>not trustworthy. There are certain leaders who, will not listen to criticism, 
>they have a bad blockage when it come to this issue. And I do now what we call 
>those leaders. We call them: Narrowminded and Blocked leaders.
>
>The difference I have experienced between Blavatsky theossophists and AAB 
>followers is exactly this lack of self-critical examination about the AAB books 


>and all other authors among AAB-folllowers - something Blavatsky theosophists 
>find to be an unhealty attitude on their part.
>
>- - - - - - -
>An example is the following from the website:
>"Summary of Courses Offered From Year 2 to Year 5
>
>Descriptions of courses to be offered from Year 2 through Year 5 will be shared 


>in detail with those who fill out an Application. Looking briefly at offerings 
>beyond the first year, such courses, consistently advancing in depth and 
>comprehensiveness, includeâ
>
>* two years of Esoteric Psychology
>* three years of Esoteric Healing
>* three years of White Magic"
>
>......etc. etc. and so on show me, that this School operates through the AAB 
>books and NOT at all through an equal and open focus on the literature 
>mentioned: I.e. Blavatsky (HPB), Helena Roerich, and, other significant authors 


>in the field of philosophical esotericism. Not even Blavatsky's Esoteric Section 
>
>
>operate in such a manner.
>
>So, therefore I will not join this group.
>But if they will provide me with their Constitution and Rules - or the Pledge 
>which might need to be taken I might change my mind and heart.
>
>These are just my views.
>Other seekers might join this group and put their head under their arms.
>
>- - -
>Wisdom is a scare thing. It is most often not those who have the largest number 


>of followers who are the most wise ones.
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Duane Carpenter 
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:09 AM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>
>Dear Sufilight
>You will take the challenge âIFâ your conditions are met. You have already laid 


>out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do 
>not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school 
>should be so I cannot join. 
>
>Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity 
>into?
>HPB would be the first to admit advanced esoteric work is not done by simply 
>studying theories and memorizing facts but by an immersion through meditation 
>into our higher and more spiritual selves. Morya Federation although based on 
>the works of AAB and HPB and demanding intellectual clarity is a school of 
>meditation first and foremost.
>
>You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all the 
>
>
>
>reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you 
>
>
>
>will never know will you?. It is said in the Pythagorean esoteric school of the 


>past we would have to remain silent for at least a year or two when we first 
>entered. Why is that? Perhaps because we might arrive at this school so full of 


>ourselves and what we know we might be passing judgment, categorizing and 
>telling everybody how thing should be when we should be humbling ourselves to 
>learn.
>That may be one of the reason few people join esoteric schools because all 
>potential candidates have all kinds of preconceived ideas about what it is 
>suppose to be. 
>
>If you joined would you not have all of your questions answered??
>Best Duane
>
>________________________________
>From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@d2C37go_lyHp1G-kQZa6NUMm_nbbYvSiyDtxWi6m_j1ZmMexMc8X2xdWNQms4I_q3qbF7Yn7REGbd3NPKU0yuXWPOjs.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 3:05:22 PM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>
>Dear Duane, AAB-followers and friends
>
>My views are:
>
>I do hope, that you do not mind me calling you all my friends?
>
>Duane wrote:
>"I challenge any readers here to suspend their preconceived ideas or disbelief 
>and join the Moray Federation of Esoteric Schools for just 6 months or a year 
>before they start passing out judgments about teachings they either do not 
>understand or cannot comprehend. This school teahces both AAB and HPB."
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>I will take such a challenge at any time, if is possible for me, provided I am 
>given some answers first to the below questions, and if those answers are proper 
>
>
>
>and truthful.
>If I, who is not a Seeker of beliefs but of Knowledge, should suspend my 
>(appearntly) by you claimed "preconceived ideas or disbelief" I will first have 


>to ask you some questions. I ask them with a kind heart, and I do hope that they 
>
>
>
>are not being misunderstodd by any of the Alice A. Bailey followers.
>
>Here they are...
>
>*** 1 ***
>I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
>- Why should one join a group, which do not clearly tell me why or whether it 
>has deviated from the Original Programe of the Theosophical Society as it was 
>given by H. P. Blavatsky, Morya and KH.? 
>
>- Or tell me why why or whether it has deviated from the programe of the 
>Esoteric Section as it was given by H. P. Blavatsky?
>
>The Original Programe of The theosophical Society - a few excerpts:
>"In order to leave no room for equivocation, the members of the T.S. have to be 


>reminded of the origin of the Society in 1875. Sent to the U.S. of America in 
>1873 for the purpose of organizing a group of workers on a psychic plane, two 
>years later the writer received orders from her Master and Teacher to form the 
>nucleus of a regular Society whose objects were broadly stated as follows:
>1. Universal Brotherhood;
>2. No distinction to be made by the member between races, creeds, or social 
>positions, but every member had to be judged and dealt by on his personal 
>merits;
>3. To study the philosophies of the Eastâthose of India chiefly, presenting them 
>
>
>
>gradually to the public in various works that would interpret exoteric religions 
>
>
>
>in the light of esoteric teachings;
>4. To oppose materialism and theological dogmatism in every possible way, by 
>demonstrating the existence of occult forces unknown to science, in nature, and 


>the presence of psychic and spiritual powers in man"......."But if the two 
>Founders were not told what they had to do, they were distinctly instructed 
>about what they should never do, what they had to avoid, and what the Society 
>should never become. Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were 
>shown as the future contrasts to our Society."
>(The Original Programe: BCW, Vol. VII, p. 145-173)
>http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v7/yxxxx_019.htm
>
>"CONSTITUTION AND RULES OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
>The Theosophist - January 1891"
>....
>"ARTICLE XIII
>Offences
>1. Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society In political 
>disputes shall be immediately expelled.
>
>2. No Fellow, Officer, or Council of the Theosophical Society, or of any Section 
>
>
>
>or Branch thereof, shall promulgate or maintain any doctrinas being that 
>advanced, or advocated by the Society. "
>http://www.global-theosophy.net/ts_constitution_rules.php
>
>I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
>Now you tell me why we should not call all Alice A. Bailey groups and even your 


>wellmeaning Morya group a Sect - using doctrinas - when they use "Bible-study" 
>and political entanglements at the United Nations and an Messiah-craze?
>
>Blavatsky was send to USA by Master KH and Morya's own chiefs (and not only by 
>themselves) to form a group, which among its aims was to be a - contrast - to 
>the Christian Churches. And not a group promoting "invocative" prayers to make a 
>
>
>
>very physical external MALE Messiah-craze - excitingly awaited - walk about in 
>the physical.
>
>Referring to Madame Blavatsky, Master K.H. wrote: 
>"After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail themselves 


>of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve 


>as a connecting link between that country and our own." 
>
>( The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett, Letter No. 26, Master K.H.'s 
>Confidential Memo about Old Lady [HPB]. Received Simla, Autumn, 1881. ) 
>
>*** 2 ***
>I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
>Why should one join a group, which do not clearly tell me why or whether it has 


>deviated from the Original Programe of the Esoteric Section as it was given by 
>H. P. Blavatsky?
>
>H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section has today been turned into a sham by many 
>Alice A. Bailey groups who claim to follow her footsteps. 
>
>Many of them claim to be following these Blavatsky footsteps while they - very 
>very carefully - avoid forwarding the view that THEY have real contact with a 
>Master. They demand huges sums of money being spend on membership fee's at their 
>
>
>
>Esoteric Groups - this DESPITE - that H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section never 
>required any money being paid to her.
>
>Other groups even claim that THEY have a continous contact with a real Master, 
>while they also demand huges sums of money being spend on membership fee's at 
>their Esoteric Groups - this DESPITE - that H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section 
>never required any money being paid to her.
>
>Why should we join such a openly proclaimed Esoteric Section, who gives 
>membership to almost anyone?
>What kind of esoteric agenda - so-called by itself - is it good for?
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>*** 3 ***
>
>I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
>Why should we trust a man (the so-called D.K. or else Alice A. Bailey) who take 


>most of the credit for dictating the Secret Doctrine to H. P. Blavatsky, when we 
>
>
>
>find many letters opposing this view by Master KH, Master Morya, H. P. 
>Blavatsky, Constance Watchmeister, HÃbbe Schleiden and perhaps others?
>
>Alice A. Bailey's guide named D.K. forwards his claims several times in the AAB 


>books. Here are the books and pages where Alice A. Bailey's guide named D.K (or 


>AAB her self) claims that he was behind the Secret Doctrine:
>- Alice A. Bailey - "Initiation - Human and Solar", p. 58
>- Alice A. Bailey - "The Rays and Initiations", page 255
>- Alice A. Bailey - "The Externalisation of the Hierarchy", page 685
>- Alice A. Bailey - "Esoteric Healing", p. 521, 536(?), og 565
>
>And not a single word of credit to Morya and KH about their involvement with the 
>
>
>
>book!
>We can only wonder what agenda motivates such a promotion and why we aught to 
>take such an author seriously at all?
>
>HPB wrote: "For the true, the genuine âMasters,â whose real names have, 
>fortunately, never been given out, cannot be created and killed at the beck and 


>call of the sweet will of any âopportunist,â whether inside or outside of the 
>T.S." (BCW, Vol. XI, p. 294 - year 1889) 
>
>Some words documenting that it was Blavatsky, Morya and KH who was behind the 
>Secret Doctrine:
>A. 
>The below link and its mahatma letters show me and others that it was not Alice 


>A. Bailey's guide named D. K. who as claimed wrote large parts of the Secret 
>Doctrine. It was Master KH and Morya. Blavatsky even write more than one time 
>about it to Olcott, why should she be lying about this? And why should the 
>Masters be lying about it? And why should Constance Watchmeister be telling an 
>untruth about Blavatsky's words about her readings of the Akasha and that her 
>Master was guiding her?
>
>The Writing of The Secret Doctrine (Remember: read the footnotes as well)
>http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/invit-sd/invsd-4.htm
>
>B. 
>Reminiscences of H. P. Blavatsky (Chapter 5)
>http://blavatskyarchives.com/wachtmeister/wachtmeisterrem32.htm
>
>C.
>"Another witness to such a phenomenon (during H.P.B's stay in WÃrzburg) was Dr 
>HÃbbe-Schleiden who writes, I saw a good deal of the well-known blue K.H. 
>handwriting as corrections and annotations on her manuscript as well as in books 
>
>
>
>that lay occasionally on her desk. And I noticed this principally in the morning 
>
>
>
>before she had commenced to work. I slept on the couch in her study after she 
>had withdrawn for the night and the couch stood only a few feet from her desk. I 
>
>
>
>remember well my astonishment one morning when I got up to find a great many 
>pages of foolscap covered with that blue pencil handwriting lying on her own 
>manuscript, at her place on her desk. How these pages got there I do not know, 
>but I did not see them before I went to sleep, and no person had been bodily in 


>the room during the night, for I am a light sleeper. [Reminiscences, 112/3]"
>(http://www.blavatskytrust.org.uk/html/trilogy_sd.htm)
>See also Reminiscences of H. P. Blavatsky (p. 110-113)
>A letter received by Wachtmeister from Schleiden
>http://blavatskyarchives.com/wachtmeister/wachtmeisterrem110.htm
>Or with a bit more info and extra notes by Boris de Zirkoff "The Secret 
>Doctrine", p. 13-16. (Search it here: http://books.google.com/)
>
>D.
>Here we have Blavatsky 's words about D.K.'s lack of grammar:
>"Letter LIV
>[Sent from Wurzburg. 1885 (?1886)
>
>I have a number of diagrams with reference to the evolution of the septenary 
>globes and Cosmogony of Esoteric Buddhism, made by Djual Khool and Sarma for me 


>to explain to you, and Hume during the first year of the Simla teaching; and 
>several of them I had copied by a Parsee, a good draughtsman of the School of 
>Arts at Bombay, who could not do them well -- and then, I copied them from D. 
>Kh.'s with Tibetan signs and names, translating them and doing it the best I 
>could -- since I did not want to give the originals out to a stranger and you 
>could not have understood them -- and gave them to Olcott to be copied and one 
>of them -- the one I sent to Hume I believe -- was copied by Coulomb who is a 
>very good draughtsman -- too good unfortunately [cf. Letter XLVI, page 304 of 
>this volume. -- EDS.] I remember how well he copied the few lines in English, a 


>remark by D. K. on the cosmogony -- in a way that I was astonished: it was a 
>perfect copy of D. K.'s writing, grammatical mistakes, and all. Neither Olcott, 


>nor I, nor Damodar, ever made a secret of such copies. . . . [This letter was 
>unsigned, but it is in H. P. B.'s handwriting. -- EDS.]"
>http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/damodar/dam6.htm
>
>- - -
>Some comments:
>I know that my questions in the above might sound harsh. But they are 
wellmeant.
>And I really do care about those, who are Seekers after Truth. That is a most 
>noble thing. But, I like them to avoid telling me, that I MUST absolutely follow 
>
>
>
>their Primary "AAB Bible-study" with political entanglements - instead of an 
>open inquiring into religious-philosophies of all kinds. - And - if they clam to 
>
>
>
>invite me into what they call an Esoteric Section, they aught to at least pledge 
>
>
>
>people (and show what that pledge is all about) and show, that they as teachers 


>know their way around in life - like H. P. Blavatsky did. And openly beforehand 


>without demanding any fee's what so ever!
>
>Show us this Morya groups Constitution (http://www.moryafederation.net/). If it 


>is not online its website, we can only ask ourselves why? And if it promotes the 
>
>
>
>AAB Messiah-craze and political entanglements, we also ask ourselves why, 
>because this is the same as promoting a dogma and cutting the political flowers 


>from the surface of the soil instead of tearing them out by the roots. And as a 


>theosophist I will not agree upon this.
>
>- - -
>Blavatsky wrote about why the TS carefully avoided Politics:
>"ENQUIRER. Do you take any part in politics? 
>
>THEOSOPHIST. As a Society, we carefully avoid them, for the reasons given below. 
>
>
>
>To seek to achieve political reforms before we have effected a reform in human 
>nature, is like putting new wine into old bottles. Make men feel and recognise 
>in their innermost hearts what is their real, true duty to all men, and every 
>old abuse of power, every iniquitous law in the national policy, based on human, 
>
>
>
>social or political selfishness, will disappear of itself. Foolish is the 
>gardener who seeks to weed his flower-bed of poisonous plants by cutting them 
>off from the surface of the soil, instead of tearing them out by the roots. No 
>lasting political reform can be ever achieved with the same selfish men at the 
>head of affairs as of old. " (The Key to Theosophy, p. 231)
>http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm
>
>And I guess the Master looked at TS Adyar (and its Besant politics) and the AAB 


>groups (United Nations entanglements) ...and...expressed a friendly sigh....
>
>Any comments?
>(No comments is also an answer.)
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Duane Carpenter 
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:08 PM
>Subject: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>
>Hi martin
>
>________________________________
>
>From: Martin <Mvandertak@oN5HMqaA0fmbLASMfVFo7CMNYiFoqXPxyyxttgZ1EdUsJw8j81u3rz5uvx3vlVRH7jagnTRHtkZYn9Y.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 7:33:53 AM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Aurobindo's madman?
>
>Hi Martin
>Thank you for sharing your views.
>What AAB did by her own admission was to include Esoteric Christianity into 
>Hindu and Buddhist esoteric traditions. If Theosophy is the esoteric core of ALL 
>
>
>
>religions why would she not want to include Christianity. Theosophist need to 
>stop comparing Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeaters superficial analyses of 
>Christianity and read what AAB has to say. If you are saying here martin that 
>AAB failed to bring new insights into an old dogmatic Christianity that may not 


>be correct.
>Alice bailey teachings are growing exponentially in leaps and bounds as many of 


>the earlier contributors to Theosophy are declining. HPB will always be one of 
>the greatest contributors to esoteric wisdom in my experience but not 
>necessarily the only one.
>We sometimes confuse the heart of Theosophy which is inquiry into the spiritual 


>with loving or hating the messengers. 
>
>This is why Some Theosophists despise AAB because they see her as a threat to 
>their established dogmas and cherished beliefs. The paradox that no one has yet 


>explained to me successfully is why do so many AAB students love HPB and study 
>her alongside AAB. But those who have studied only HPB make premature judgments 


>and condemnation of AAB without an honest study of her material.?
>I challenge any readers here to suspend their preconceived ideas or disbelief 
>and join the Moray Federation of Esoteric Schools for just 6 months or a year 
>before they start passing out judgments about teachings they either do not 
>understand or cannot comprehend. This school teahces both AAB and HPB.
>Best Duane
>
>"What is it about Bailey in particular that creates such a paranoid atmosphere 
>throughout the TS?"
>Lol, it is all about tactics...Bailey and those behind her wanted to synthesize 


>Christianity into Theosophy which is not possible...
>At the same time they wanted to bring the Old Wisdom more apprehensible for all 


>people in which they also failed...
>We have now entered a time where all religion will destroy itself from within to 
>
>
>
>find they were all derived from the One Religion...check my site 
>http://www.worldoftak.nl/forum/showthread.php?tid=247 
>
>...sorry you will need Google to translate some of the text there...
>
>________________________________
>From: kpauljohnson <kpauljohnson@2jy-F3kIDResDAzaU3Dpypa6bCeJfSta5N6Peu3TvSzJ6mR6pSu3rawF8qbHb7EnwtDuc9OZLZf1hK8OfBlA.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 1:21:34 PM
>Subject: theos-talk Re: Aurobindo's madman?
>
>This was a very contemporary article to have been written a hundred years ago! 
>As for the "dethroning of popes" that still is the main thing needed IMO. But 
>now in addition to an authoritarian mindset on behalf of the current leadership, 
>
>
>
>the popes of 100 years ago are untouchable, beyond criticism, still enthroned 
>even though long dead. 
>
>I would think that Morten and I agree about the relative value of the writings 
>of Leadbeater and Bailey compared to those of HPB. I'd be equally disinclined 
>to spend time on either one, but if others in a group wanted to study them would 
>
>
>
>not object, just skip those classes. But the difference in the TS is that 
>nothing negative can ever said about the former, nothing positive about the 
>latter, without making The Powers That Be extremely uncomfortable. What is it 
>about Bailey in particular that creates such a paranoid atmosphere throughout 
>the TS?
>
>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Duane Carpenter <monad_monad_monad@...> 
>wrote:
>>
>> Great Article Jim
>> This extracted section of the article really gave important insights.
>> 
>> Aurobindo: Claims of Theosophy
>> 
>> 
>> "If Theosophy is to survive, it must first change itself. It must learn that 
>> mental rectitude to which it is now a stranger and improve its moral basis. It 
>
>
>
>> must become clear, straightforward, rigidly self-searching, sceptical in the 
>> nobler sense of the word. It must keep the Mahatmas in the background and put 


>> God and Truth in the front. Its Popes must dethrone themselves and enthrone the 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> intellectual conscience of mankind. If they wish to be mystic and secret like 


>> our Yogins, then they must like our Yogins assert only to the initiate and the 
>
>
>
>> trained; but if they come out into the world to proclaim their mystic truths 
>> aloud and seek power, credit and influence on the strength of their assertions, 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> then they must prove. It need not and ought not to be suddenly or by miracles; 
>
>
>
>> but there must be a scientific development, we must be able to lay hold on the 
>
>
>
>> rationale and watch the process of the truths they proclaim." 
>> 
>> Circa 1910/12
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: jamesbergh <jamesbergh@...>
>> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 7:12:33 PM
>> Subject: theos-talk Aurobindo's madman?
>> 
>> Ã 
>> I was reading an article by Aurobindo, Claims of Theosophy at:
>> www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/17/0015_e.htm
>> 
>> He wrote in 1910/12: ...The only member of the Theosophical Society who could 


>> give me any spiritual help I could not better by my unaided faculties, was one 
>
>
>
>> excluded from the esoteric section because of his rare and potent experiences 


>> were unintelligible to Theosophical guides... one who meddled not in 
>> organizations and election cabals but lived like a madman, unmattavat."
>> 
>> Could have been some other Chuck, but I wonder who this soul may have been.
>> 
>> Any ideas?
>> 
>> Jim
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>>
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