Theos-Talk Archives (September 2010 Message tt00079)

Unless, that is, Chalmers is talking about only the temporary qualia of phenomenal human consciousness, rather than pure unconditioned consciousness itself, and its fundamental unchanging potential awareness and will prior to any phenomenal experience (such as that of a prenatal baby/fetus or the initial cosmos itself).

It's this initiating or primal consciousness that conventional physical science can never explain... Since, even if there was a separate God who created the universe in his own image, it would have to be conscious of its own creation...  Also, since the physical universe is simply a lower frequency phase order of the initial triune field of primal cosmogenesis, the God we think of on our physical plane, would have to be either the highest order initial cosmic field itself, or the conscious void from which it originated.  

Think about that before you try to reductively determine the true nature of fundamental reality starting from present conditions observed objectively or described mathematically (analog or otherwise) -- which are mostly illusions of the senses and the mind, along with its symbolic interpretations... Not true scientific reasoning at all ... Which should be trying to determine the actual nature of fundamental reality -- rather than wrongly presuming that subjectivity emerges from objectivity, and that formative matter/energy is causative/creative and primary or intelligent. 

On Aug 9, 2010, at 8/9/105:09 AM, Ralph wrote:

> Perhaps of interest to some,  the emergence of the magnetic tetrahedron which is a pretty simple artifact of structure and duality (which has strong preferences for some and not other states and thus innately supports classical or objective types of features), cascades through some related states which are also  present in water- and carbon-based molecules and processes and these connections quickly  convey very strong pictures relating through respiration and hydrogen-bonding with active sequences of protein-folding and thus with all human expression. 
> 
> Once the underlying law is presented, the connection with "consciousness" is quite, clear direct.


Ralph, I can't see how anything You said is clear and direct -- let alone trying to imagine a "connection with (unconditioned) 'consciousness'". 

Accordingly, could you please explain what "protein folding" -- which occurs during the chemical construction of a protein molecule by the DNA-RNA gene system, has to do with "all human expression" -- other than the DNA's building of our objective physical cells and bodies?  What does such folding have to do with the subjective expression of consciousness (awareness, will), or with the storage and transmission of the information of consciousness?   

Also, What is the nature of the "underlying law" that gives rise to a "structured duality" -- when we know that all things emerge from empty space, and are made up, fundamentally, of radiant electromagnetic fields?  ("In the beginning ... ... And God said, 'Let there be light' and there was light" - Gen: 1,2,3)  Compare this with Einstein's "singularity" and Special and General Relativity theories based on Maxwell's electrodynamics and non Euclidian field geometries.  Also, this "light" basis of total reality assures us that "all matter is made of waves". 
See: http://www.glafreniere.com/matter.htm 

Obviously, then, all chemistry must be governed by the laws and dynamics rooted in such radiant electrical fields (including the bonding of particles in and to atoms, atoms to molecules, water to itself, etc.)... And it follows that the fields of gravity and magnetism, as two of the four natural forces, is what holds everything together on the classical level... It also follows that the other two forces, that act on the quantum, atomic and molecular levels, are part of the one primal G-force (infinite spin momentum) that must be fundamentally electrical as well as gravitational in nature.  

Since all primal radiant fields are spherical standing waves (according to their singular spin momentum primal beginning and the fractal geometry of cosmogenesis) -- they must be logically composed of two waves, one ingoing and the other outgoing, along with their fractal harmonics.

Apparently, the initial cosmic outgoing wave would appear to be the origin of the expanding electromagnetic field, and the ingoing wave, the origin of the compressive gravitational field.  Thus, the strong force could be the compressive gravity waves pushing together the fundamental particles in the atom nucleus, while the electroweak force would appear to be the attractive/repulsive EM nature of atoms acting on each other, due to their outer electron particle standing waves.  For a look at what a computer simulation of such a particle standing wave might look like, see:
http://leonmaurer.info/particlestandingwave.mov or
http://www.glafreniere.com/sa_spherical.htm and
http://mwolff.tripod.com/point.html

Thus, the periodically manifest universe itself -- based on cyclic law built into its original "spinergy" [or a conscious God's (force+material) construction source, if you like] -- along with all the constantly dying and reborn cells that compose our bodies -- must fundamentally communicate directly through those fields... And thereby, form the structure of everything, in accord with the total intelligence or information gathered from all previous and all possible future cosmic manifestations... With such evolutional information retained in the cosmos' fundamental spin momentum (the Akashic field) and on all its fractal involved, harmonically resonant radiant fields.  Such fields, would be equivalent to what Rupert Sheldrake calls, in his theory of evolution, "morphic (or morphogenetic) fields"... Which is entirely consistent with my ABC model's fractal involved "Astro Biohological Coenergetic fields". 


http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/Cyclic-paths-cosmogenesis.jpg  

Thus, on the cosmic level of the first 14 inner fields of fractal involution, there could very well be a hierarchy of conscious beings associated with each field of the upper and lower seven that represent the hierarchy of "cosmic architects", so to speak, who successively take on the roles of reconstructing the universe as it sequentially evolves (after initial lawful inflation and breaking of symmetry) -- in accord with its total structural information (from its previous manifestation and evolution) that is stored on and accessed from their analogous inner, higher order memory and mind fields.  

This conscious hierarchy, apparently, corresponds to the different levels of conscious angels and archangels of all religious theologies, and mystical philosophies... It also explains why the number 7 is so mystically important in all religious cosmologies. 

We also know -- from all that and by logical deduction (based, in my case, on many years of research and experience as an electronic communication scientist/engineer) -- that all information which determines the structure of all particles, atoms, molecules, and organisms made up of them, would, fundamentally, have to be carried by the underlying radiant hyperspace fields originating at their sub-quantum particle-wave level.  And further, that all such electromagnetic and gravitational fields would have to have fractal harmonics that are divisible by 2.  IOW, that all primal fields are hyperspherically dual in nature... like a Chinese Box of double helix toruses within toruses within toruses,. or twin bubbles within bubbles within bubbles, etc., ad infinitum.  

This fundamental duality within a trinity of the first cosmic field, would have to be the primal source of the "nested structural duality" that you surmised through direct observation of a magnetic tetrahedron (similar to the structure of a water molecule) -- which are simply the physical models of the initial conscious, triune EM field of cosmogenesis, that is analogous to the initial (spiritual/dual mental) field surrounding the subsequent genesis of all living/sentient beings.  This also can be interpreted metaphorically as, "we are in God as God is within each of us".

Obviously, if we analyze the linear inscribed geometry of the initial triune hyperspherical cosmic field, we see that it is basically a cube-octahedron or vector equilibrium (which,incidentally, is composed of 64 nested tetrahedrons -- which are, themselves, not fundamental). Thus, it's the 8 (side) -6 (point) octahedron and 6-8 cube that is fundamental... And, their overall hyperspherical field structure, like a continuous spiral vortex double helix overall spherical volume, is exactly equivalent to the Taoist Tai Chi or yin yang symbol, and can easily be seen replicated in the spiral double helix of the DNA ladder.  See:
http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/PhotonField.gif 
and also, for their progressive fractal hexagonal structure, see 
http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/Fract-Exp-Lt-Dk-matter-text.jpg

Accordingly, this octaval descending fractal field nature of all structures, that are analogous and corresponding, can be seen in these symbolic cross sectional diagrams of (1) the total metaphysical cosmos and its physical plane*, (2) the fields within and surrounding each human being**, and (3 down to the inner field structure of an oncoming photon*** (which is also what a DNA molecule might symbolically look like viewed head on in cross section).  
*http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/Cyclic-paths-cosmogenesis.jpg
**http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/Chakrafielddiag-fig.col.jpg
***http://leonmaurer.info/ABCimages/PhotonField.gif

It's also obvious that zerro-point cosmic or God consciousness, spread out everywhere in each zero-point origin of radiant fields throughout the entire universe, would naturally be stationary relative to the radiant (spherical) information carrying fields surrounding them.  This indicates that human consciousness (at a much lower level of possible experience, comprehension or intelligence) is the exact subjective equivalent of initial universal creative consciousness, and that all living organic microcosms, starting with the DNA molecules, are constructed "in the image" of the primal creative universal consciousness and its initial radiant triune "nested duality" (hyperspherical double helix) field structure. 

Apparently then, your intuitive grasp of a universal structured duality, based on initial spiral vortex spin, from observation of your magnetic tetrahedrons, is entirely correct... And also verifies that the entire cosmos is constructed throughout -- whether viewed as its hyperspherical field or its solid polygonal geometry's -- as such analogous and corresponding nested structural dualities.  

This triune initial field structure would also be the basis of the Trinity or triple crown in Hebrew, Christian. Hindu, Buddhist and other philosophical cosmologies.  In addition, its spherically inscribed geometry of the initial, triple axis cube-octahedron, would also contain the symbology of all the organized religions -- such as the Hindu svastika (also used by native religions of North and South America), the Christian and Buddhist cross, the Hebrew star of David (Solomon's seal) etc.  Also, since all such structures are fundamentally 3-D holographic objects in themselves, their information would necessarily have to be in the form of holograms on the surfaces of EM fields originated from each of their centers of gravity or ZPE source.

So, in conclusion:

1.  Unconditioned consciousness (awareness, will, etc.) is fundamental, along with potential mass-energy (spin momentum)... That together are the subjective creative and potential energetic source of all objective material forms that emerge from their interaction... Not vice versa -- as you, and other epiphenomenalists believe. Thus ponderable matter emerges from consciousness and potential energy, not the reverse.

Although I don't think Chalmers goes so far as to make such an unfounded claim that pure unconditioned consciousness emerges from matter or its processes... Since he said, that in order to explain the 'experience of consciousness" or its subjective nature, we would need a new "psycho-physical paradigm" of science.  

I take this to mean that we need to understand the holographic nature of information in conjunction with a unified field theory of mind that goes back to initial causation and the fundamental laws of electrodynamics -- which are governed primarily by EM field frequency cycles and their harmonic resonances rooted in fundamental cyclic angular momentum ("spinergy") or ZPE.

Simpler than simple, as Einstein said it should be... And easily shown to apply analogously and correspondingly, from initial cosmogenesis, through the genesis of all material forms and sentient beings, down to the smallest so called "virtual particles" (axions, tachyons, etc.) of the infinitesimal spatial dimensions within the Planck volume... 

It follows that that the only logically rational conclusion is that stationary subjectivity or perceptive awareness and responsive will, coupled with spin-momentum based potential energy must be the fundamental aspects of the absolute zero-point space at the origin of all such fields... With only the internal, inter-relational, and spatial dynamics relative to these forms being the concern of conventional physical science and its technological, biological, physiological, and psychological offshoots.  All the rest, falling under the purview of an entirely new scientific paradigm that covers all the higher order hyperspatial fields and their interconnections as the media of conscious information -- while still including all correct aspects of conventional physics under its wing. 

2.  All cosmic structural information  and experiential information of consciousness is carried by fractally involved, harmonically resonant radiant fields, as wave interference-patterned holograms on their surfaces.  

Therefore, the mind and memory are higher frequency/energy phase order fields (thus longer lasting) -- which are closest to the zero-points of consciousness... And that are also resonant with the processed holographic sensory information carried on the individual neural fields and overall brain wave field... With all such composite fields (carrying processed visual and audio image information) originating from our pineal gland.  

That gland (or third eye) is where observed light inhibits production of melatonin and where we actually see from our singular (zero) point of view.  This static (relative to the total body) POV also serves as a fixed reference point in exactly and instantaneously determining -- by analog field resonance between 3-D holographic images (in mind and memory fields) -- our geophysical body positions and their coordinates, relative to the observed 3-D world surrounding us.  

How else can we drive a car, catch a fly ball on the run and jump, paint a portrait or landscape, and play a piano concerto?  It's all in the analog fractal harmonic field geometry, their visual/auditory holograms, and their mutual resonances.  This transmission of information to and through coadunate resonant fields, and its detection, reconstruction and perception by one pointed consciousness is the simplest method of relatively instantaneous communication possible.  Its the same way that all our electronic communication and GPS systems work, through both solid matter and empty space.  

Ordered water, being ponderable matter (despite your conjectures) could have nothing to do (despite your conjectures) with these conscious (attentive) and sub-conscious (unattended) communication processes, other than being the intermediate medium of ion transmission through the electrochemical processing channels throughout the brain-body and its neurological system.

3.  Every zero-point in the total cosmos is potentially conscious, and the entire cosmos is a hologram with all information contained and reflected in every zero-point in metric 3-spacetime.  This can be experimentally observed by placing your visual point of view anywhere in the cosmos and noting that wherever you observe it from, and whatever direction you look, you are always at its exact spherical center... Thereby, self evidently proving that the mind is a spherical field, and what you observe in it from the exact center of your head is a hologram.  

This hologram nature of all projected or reflected images can also be demonstrated by placing a small lens in between a projector and a large screen and, by focussing it on a small piece of paper, noting that the entire large screen image is repeated (at about the same size of the lens itself) on the smaller screen.  We can also look up at the sky and note that if we track each starlight ray back to our eye, all the images of each of the stars converge at each single zero-point on the surface of our eye, and at crossover point between the lens and the retinal.  

This should give you (and anyone else interested in knowing why "there is no religion higher than truth") enough to think about -- until you can intuitively grasp the whole picture of one God, one consciousness, and one holographic universe -- all connected through infinite zero-points of individual consciousness... Each of which, in Humans, can know itself, along with the Higher Self of God, through itself. 

Hope all this clarifies how it all began a bit further -- (And now back to rewriting some of this for my next article, and to send it on to all the other online scientific forums studying consciousness and/or cosmology.;-)  

All feedback welcome.

Best wishes,
Leon Maurer
http://knol.google.com/k/how-it-all-began#
http://www.jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/85
http://leonmaurer.tripod.com/  

   
------------------Original Message---------------------   

> Richard, 
> 
> Thanks for the link to David Chalmers' paper discussing or defining his ideas about aspects of strong and weak emergence. 
> 
> It's a challenging topic and he did well with it, but I also counted that  he used the word "if" about 25 times in 13 pages, very often in the sense of "If I am right... about [what I just suggested]", and while  he raises the notion about there being: 
> 
> "...laws that express the connection between physical processes and consciousness [called] fundamental psychophysical laws.",
> 
> he fails to point out any of the available instances of the law, and as well, he fails to suggest the law he reploys in discussing various strong-weak/structures. 
> 
> Another thing some readers may find of interest is his emphasis upon "deducible features" in his emergence assessment scheme. While he does his set-up and makes the suggestion that consciousness is a/the instance of strong emergence, I didn't read where he also explicitly  admitted that "deducing"  is a regular feature of consciousness and thus is a bit overly entangled in his own classification scheme.
> 
> Still, it's a complicated topic and I expect he ought to be commended for attempting to open a way down to the general principle underlying consciousness and things and processes in the physical region.   Whether such a law should be classified "psychophysical" remains to be seen. 
> 
> [As a sidebar, a little-known fact is David Chalmers was one of the few people to actually play around for a few seconds with the magnetic tetrahedron displayed at a Tuscon Conference Poster Presentation in April 2003.] 
> 
> There are at least a couple of candidates for the underlying law.  One, of course, is the Eastern mystical Tao/yin-yang  storyline.  If one takes that as either a high-level and/or a low level principle, as many people, particularly in physics, have tried to do, then there IS some vague sensibility of it as an underlying pattern.  For Westerners, though, the connection is quite metaphoric and ineffable. 
> 
> An alternative, what might best be considered as an improved middle-western translation, comes in the form of the principle of structured duality (published in the same 2003 Tucson poster presentation). In this principle, all things have some structure AND all things have or exhibit one or more dualities or differences.  This principle fits for all the widgets and processes in the physical realm, AND all the artifacts and elements and processes (thoughts and paradigms, etc)  in the mental realm.  
> 
> This rather eternal principle leaves us with reality being nested structured duality and, if we look close, the Western Cube/subjective-object imagery, as well as the Eastern Tao/yin-yang model, and certainly the tetrahedron/north-south magnetic tetrahedron exemplar all fit the same underlying general pattern.
> 
> Perhaps of interest to some,  the emergence of the magnetic tetrahedron which is a pretty simple artifact of structure and duality (which has strong preferences for some and not other states and thus innately supports classical or objective types of features), cascades through some related states which are also  present in water- and carbon-based molecules and processes and these connections quickly  convey very strong pictures relating through respiration and hydrogen-bonding with active sequences of protein-folding and thus with all human expression. 
> 
> Once the underlying law is presented, the connection with "consciousness" is quite, clear direct.
> 
> 
> Perhaps Dr. Chalmers will be kind enough to  respond and clarify.
> 
> Best regards, 
> Ralph Frost
> 
> --- In jcs-online@yahoogroups.com, richard ruquist <yanniru@...> wrote:
>> 
>> Gentlemen,
>> 
>> I would appreciate some discussion of the proposal by Australian David Chalmers 
>> that consciousness is a strong-emergent process as detailed in 
>> http://consc.net/papers/emergence.pdf. He connects this perspective to Godel's 
>> Incompleteness Theorems and claims that the known physical laws are incomplete.
>> 
>> I prefer the more conventional definition of strong emergence (Wiki-Emergence), 
>> that it is a process that generates complex system forms that cannot be traced 
>> back to the elements of the system. So my view is that it is the mathematics of 
>> the system that is incomplete, not the known physical laws. Mathematics applies 
>> to all physical systems that I am aware and the system math is consistent. Godel 
>> claims that Peano arithmetic is incomplete, but not Robinson arithmetic. So if 
>> neurology can be characterized as Peano, then we can expect the neurology to be 
>> capable of consciousness. See Wiki- Robinson arithmetic and Godel Incompleteness 
>> for more detail.
>> 
>> Richard Ruquist
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]