Theos-Talk Archives (July 2010 Message tt00112)

Hi Govert,

I think you're being too kind. 

Didn't several messages mysteriously disappear from the archives? That sort of thing doesn't just happen - someone has to actively DELETE it & it makes sense that that someone would be the owner/manager of theos-talk. AKA MKR. Just because no one admitted to deleting those messages, doesn't mean it didn't happen. And deleting a message after it was published is still a form of censorship / moderation. 

Moderation is fine - as long as it's clear that there is moderation, and what the criteria are. In this case there is supposedly NO moderation, and therefore no open criteria either. 

I'm referring to this conversation:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/50276

And on here you can see the messages are still missing:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/messages/43528

Indeed it would be hard to get them to show up again. Yahoo groups does not allow for hiding messages, or retrieving them from some recycle bin. Once gone, they're gone. 

Best wishes,
Katinka

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, schuller@... wrote:
>
> Dear Katinka and MKR,
> 
> 
> Katinka, before people get a wrong impression, I have to state that I have
> never been censored on this forum. I'm free to post and I assume my
> contributions are still in the archive.
> 
> MKR, your position on independence can be read as an a priori
> disqualification of people who have derived a material compensation from
> an organization and those who are in leadership positions doling out the
> compensations. It also gives undue weight to those who are materially
> independent from the TS like yourself. I think that's a prejudice and not
> helpful if you want to make this group more hospitable to any and all
> Theosophists, especially its leadership.
> 
> Most Adyar Theosophists stay away here because they experience this group
> as badly managed, even toxic, though many might lurk to catch tid-bits of
> news, leaks, facts and gossip, which might not be available anywhere else.
> 
> I do appreciate your insistence on organizational transparency and better
> use of technology for communication.
> 
> Best
> 
> Govert
> 
> 
> > Hi MKR,
> >
> > That's great to hear, but not really what people are concerned about I
> > think.
> >
> > Let's go back a bit. At the Theosophical World Congress, and through email
> > in the days after it, several people expressed their concern to me that
> > your management of theos-talk was not impartial. That is: you have
> > sensored people who had perfectly decent contributions to make (Preetthi
> > and Govert and perhaps more) and seemed informed extraordinarily quickly
> > of any movement on the part of Radha/Pedro etc.
> >
> > Hearing that, and thinking that Eldon was still ultimately in charge of
> > this list, I asked him to use his authority to get the list back on track,
> > or close it. Whichever he preferred. He probably contacted you - and the
> > below is your response.
> >
> > Personally I don't give a darn whether you make money on theosophy or not.
> > Obviously it is easier to be critical for those who aren't in the employ
> > of the TS, but that doesn't mean that those who aren't - are necessarily
> > impartial. They're just financially independent of the TS - which is the
> > situation for most of us here.
> >
> > For me, and several of my correspondents - the question is: why has
> > theos-talk stopped being the open forum it used to be?
> >
> > And more specifically: how come you use several email addresses to post on
> > here? What are you trying to hide? In fact, the speculation has come up
> > that MKR hides several people on several continents.
> >
> > Now I'm all for freedom and would have preferred for theosophical.ning.com
> > to stay open for everybody and the search engines. Glad some of us set up
> > theosophy.net last year: it IS open (just checked).
> >
> > However, I'm also all for accountability. The internet gives us all the
> > opportunity to hide behind screen names and loose all fairness in the
> > process. No need to be polite or just when nobody knows who you are.
> >
> > Now - in case this gets censored - I will be saving the text of this on my
> > pc. I don't really want to post it elsewhere, but I do think the below has
> > made a response necessary.
> >
> > I will also be deleting any links to theos-talk on my own sites BTW as it
> > doesn't seem like this forum serves any purpose to the theosophical
> > movement any more.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Katinka Hesselink
> >
> > Disclosure: The Dutch TS paid me for their recent redesign, so I guess I'm
> > not independent by your definition. That hasn't stopped me from speaking
> > out where I see fit though.
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR <mkr777@> wrote:
> >>
> >> All organized entities such as governments, business corporations,
> >> spiritual
> >> organizations, and even individual leaders and politicians are always on
> >> the
> >> look out for opportunities to influence the individuals such as
> >> membership
> >> and even media people to either keep them in line or influence them to
> >> act
> >> or write in ways supporting the activities and action of the
> >> organizations
> >> and its leaders or even act as catâ??s paws to handle touchy issues.
> >> Many
> >> times, clever individuals and leaders will stay back in the background
> >> and
> >> let others do their dirty work.
> >>
> >> In organizations, range of techniques used may be outright giving money
> >> grants, reimbursing the travel expenses, offer platforms to lecture or
> >> write
> >> or even help them to move up in the leadership ladder. In theosophical
> >> circles, due to the common membership in other officially unconnected
> >> organizations, the fear of paying a price will keep writers and
> >> lecturers in
> >> line with official wishes.
> >>
> >> The reason why I bring this up is because it is necessary to clarify my
> >> personal position in all activities and writings related to theosophical
> >> and
> >> other issues. Firstly, as I have mentioned several times before, I
> >> maintain
> >> my independence because of several reasons. I am not looking forward to
> >> hold
> >> any elected office in future and I have an independent lively hood which
> >> does not depend on TS or any of its members. Also in the past I have
> >> never
> >> received any manner of financial support from TS or any of its members.
> >>
> >> I am reiterating the above so that the newbees are very clear as to
> >> where I
> >> come from and the independence gives some credibility to what I write on
> >> this and other theosophical forums. In todayâ??s Internet environment,
> >> transparent and open clarification of the independence issue is good for
> >> anyone in the cyberspace - writers, participants, website owners,
> >> website
> >> operators etc. I hope the above clarification helps.
> >>
> >>
> >> MKR
> >>
> >> There is No Religion Higher Than Truth
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>