Theos-Talk Archives (February 2010 Message tt00289)

Preety,

Thanks for that - I did not know that. The Dutch TS used to have an indirect voting system on who made general secretary (or the board in general): it was the lodges who decided who got in that role. 

So the question is - is it the lodge management who decided to keep Ulisses in power in Brazil, or is it an even more involved process? 

Similarly: in India, how is it organized precisely?

There are some people here in the Netherlands who want to go back to having the lodges central in the way the Dutch section works & I'd like to have some international information to be able to compare and give feedback on that idea. 

Katinka


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, preethi muthiah <seeker_preethi@...> wrote:
>
> MKR,
> 
> I have a problem with your statement given below about the ultra-secret attempt made by some Council members to veto the last Presidential election results. Your words: " Thus a handful  of proxy-holders decide the questions, and an oligarchy rules instead  of
> 
> democracy. Many members feel that this open proxies are a fertile source  of
> 
> trouble for the TS and theosophical cause and this makes it easy for  the
> 
> current leaders have their way in almost everything. I suspect that  this
> 
> mindset is behind the daring ultra secret failed attempt by a handful  of
> 
> leaders to disenfranchise all of us and de-facto take over of  the
> 
> International Presidency. The proponents seems to have thought that  they
> 
> have an ace and no member would raise any concern."
> 
> The reason I have a problem with understanding your take on this matter is because there is a contradiction in what you say here and what you said in your other message regarding the Brazilian Section showing the TS the way into the future. The contradiction arises solely because -- perhaps you are not aware of this so do read carefully -- the Brazilian Section of the TS DO NOT have direct voting in their election of a National President/General Secretary. The members of the Brazilian Section, TS, never get to vote in their GS. Nor for that matter do we have one in the Indian Section. So both of these Sections, which are the largest Sections of the TS, have the indirect voting system where members are not involved in voting in their National President or General Secretary, respectively. It is solely because of this that in the Brazilian Section the Ulisses Reidel and his friends and family have ruled roost for several decades now. To my knowledge,
>  Ulisses was NP of the Brazilian Section for three terms, followed by Ricardo Lindemann -- a close friend of the Reidels and currently also on the board of the PU (Planetary Union) -- and currently the National President is Marcos de Resende, son of Ulisses. They do surely follow in the steps of the Indians and specifically Mrs Radha Burnier by ensuring that family members and friends are well-looked after in the TS, and hold positions of power and authority.
> 
> I do hope you see your contradiction here. On the one hand, you keep talking about the ultra secret attempt to disenfranchise members of the TS from voting in a President and, on the other hand, you advocate the Brazilian Section as the leader in TS's future.
> 
> How contradictory is that, MKR!!!!
> 
> Fraternally
> Preethi
> --- On Sun, 14/2/10, Drpsionic@... <Drpsionic@...> wrote:
> 
> From: Drpsionic@... <Drpsionic@...>
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Membership and Transparency Issues in American  Section
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 14 February, 2010, 10:13 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Â 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       I would think that the reason the bulk of the members of TS don't care  
> 
> about organizational transparancy is very simple.  They just do not  care.  
> 
> They are doing what interests them and the internal politics of the  
> 
> TS is a side show.
> 
>  
> 
> Chuck the Heretic
> 
>  
> 
> www.charlescosimano .com  
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 2/14/2010 8:59:58 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
> 
> mkr777@gmail. com writes:
> 
> 
> 
> World-wide, lack of transparency seems to be a pervasive issue among all  
> 
> the
> 
> Sections. This seems to have developed after Annie Besant became  the
> 
> President. It appears that taking a cue from her, Sections found  it
> 
> convenient to follow less and less of transparency and keep the  members
> 
> informed of unimportant crumbs of key policy information and  decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> Members did not seem to care for transparency when the  leaders, due to 
> 
> their
> 
> past actions and commitment commanded unquestionable  trust of their
> 
> members. When in the minds of members, the trust level comes  down due to
> 
> actions and activities of leaders, as in recent days, the only  safeguard to
> 
> protect the interests of TS and theosophy is for members to  demand
> 
> transparency.
> 
> 
> 
> It appears that there is also an assumption by  the leaders that they know 
> 
> it
> 
> all and there is no need to fully keep  members informed because in the past
> 
> most showed no interest in the policy  decisions taken behind the closed
> 
> doors and crumbs being disclosed to  members.
> 
> 
> 
> From time to time, some members have also heard how prior to  national
> 
> business meetings, the leaders and their underlings collect large  number of
> 
> open proxies - giving the holder a free hand to vote as he  pleases on any
> 
> question that arises in the business meeting. Thus a handful  of
> 
> proxy-holders decide the questions, and an oligarchy rules instead  of
> 
> democracy. Many members feel that this open proxies are a fertile source  of
> 
> trouble for the TS and theosophical cause and this makes it easy for  the
> 
> current leaders have their way in almost everything. I suspect that  this
> 
> mindset is behind the daring ultra secret failed attempt by a handful  of
> 
> leaders to disenfranchise all of us and de-facto take over of  the
> 
> International Presidency. The proponents seems to have thought that  they
> 
> have an ace and no member would raise any concern.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering  the current shape of things_ in Sections outside India, 
> 
> continued
> 
> lack of  transparency in Sections is going to make any meaningful revival of
> 
> the  fortunes of TS and the Cause a very difficult upward climb. [Internet
> 
> has  been throwing a lot of light on the matters relating to the TS and  
> 
> thus
> 
> keeping current members and prospects fully informed.] Current leaders  seem
> 
> to be oblivious to this stark fact while they seem to be more  concerned 
> 
> with
> 
> who is â??mowing the lawn in Adyarâ?? as a member succinctly  stated.
> 
> 
> 
> MKR
> 
> 
> 
> There is no religion higher than Truth.
> 
> 
> 
> On  Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:23 AM, preethi muthiah
> 
> <
> 
> 
> 
> _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _seeker_preethi@ seeker_pr_ 
> 
> (mailto:seeker_preethi@ yahoo.com) _>wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >  MKR,
> 
> >
> 
> > You keep pointing out to the issue of a lack of  transparency in the TS.
> 
> > Well, I do hope the President and her aides at  Adyar especially are
> 
> > listening to you. They do lack transparency, but  then how can you expect
> 
> > them to stand in the Light of Truth when they  have not been able to do 
> 
> that
> 
> > with themselves in the first  place?
> 
> >
> 
> > Fraternally
> 
> > Preethi
> 
> >
> 
> > --- On Sat,  13/2/10, MKR <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) 
> 
> _mkr777@gmail. mkr_ (mailto:mkr777@gmail. com) _ <mkr777%40gmail. mkr>>  wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > From: MKR <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _mkr777@gmail. mkr_ 
> 
> (mailto:mkr777@gmail. com) _  <mkr777%40gmail. mkr>>
> 
> > Subject: Theos-World Membership  and Transparency Issues in American 
> 
> Section
> 
> > To: "theos-talk"  <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) 
> 
> _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com) <theos-talk% theos-talk% <WBthe>
> 
> >  >
> 
> > Date: Saturday, 13 February, 2010, 2:18  AM
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> > Recently, there was a cryptic  comment that the leaders from outside India
> 
> >
> 
> > seem to be more  interested in knowing who is mowing the lawn in Adyar. 
> 
> This
> 
> >
> 
> >  points to misplaced priority of the leaders whose job primary job is  to
> 
> > make
> 
> >
> 
> > sure theosophy flourishes in their Sections.  The sections are given full
> 
> >
> 
> > autonomy and also the National  Secretaries are given total immunity in 
> 
> that
> 
> >
> 
> > they cannot be  removed from the General Council for any reason. Diverting
> 
> >
> 
> > the  attention of the members to Adyar issues while the membership  
> 
> situation
> 
> >
> 
> > in most countries is either frozen or on the decline  â?" hopefully we will
> 
> > not
> 
> >
> 
> > end with sometimes quoted  number of three theosophists. This diverting 
> 
> the
> 
> >
> 
> > attention of  the members is seen by many as self-serving and not unlike 
> 
> how
> 
> >
> 
> >  politicians divert attention of their constituents to unimportant  issues
> 
> >
> 
> > while fire is raging on critical  issues_.
> 
> >
> 
> > Two key issues at Section level are the sad situation  regarding 
> 
> membership
> 
> >
> 
> > and the ultra secrecy with which Section  matters are handled, namely lack
> 
> > of
> 
> >
> 
> > real  transparency.
> 
> >
> 
> > While reviewing the maillist archives, I ran  into three messages touching
> 
> > on
> 
> >
> 
> > the membership and  secrecy issue in the American Section. I am sure you
> 
> >  will
> 
> >
> 
> > find them interesting to read. Here are the  links.
> 
> >
> 
> > <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) _ 
> 
> yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/  22096>
> 
> >
> 
> > <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) _ 
> 
> yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/  22079>
> 
> >
> 
> > <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) _ 
> 
> yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/  52720>
> 
> >
> 
> > MKR
> 
> >
> 
> > .
> 
> >
> 
> > [Non-text  portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> >
> 
> > The INTERNET now  has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.
> 
> > _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://in.yahoo. http_ 
> 
> (http://in.yahoo. com/) _
> 
> >
> 
> >
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> > [Non-text  portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> >
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> >  
> 
> >
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> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]
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> 
> _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>     
>      
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>     
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>       The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>