Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
Dec 29, 2009 05:02 PM
by preethi muthiah
Dear Morten,
My replies to you are at the end of your comments. So please do scroll down...patiently..
--- On Wed, 30/12/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 30 December, 2009, 2:20 AM
Â
Dear Preethi
Thank you for your answer.
Maybe other members will throw a few words?
What about those highly elevated Theosophical Society ones?
What are they really aiming at having a Convent and all in Adyar these days?
:-)
- - -
One note or two to your below answer I will write.
1.
Preethi wrote:
"Mrs Besant was already part of the TS and its President when she got involved with the freedom struggle of India."
Not quite true. She had the thought before that, and have said it openly in 1874 according to her own words. (I couldn't find the link again. It is somewhere online on the Internet.) - I have also read, that Annie Besant was writing letters to British Newspapers and perhaps still also the National Informer arguing the case for women's suffrage, voting rights etc., and in 1911 was one of the main speakers at an important Suffrage rally in London. ( http://www.katinkah esselink. net/his/Besant. html )
But I cannot find any actual documentation. maybe others can.
There are, (try page 35) a few allusions to it in Annie Besant's book "The future of Indian politics" - a contribution to the understanding of present-day problems; (1922) - Published through the apparently NON-POLITICAL: The Theosophical Publishing House!
(http://www.archive. org/details/ futureofindianpo 00besarich)
- Interesting book, can only be recommended to those who consideres what the Theosophical Society really is today.
It is a comlex issue, indeed it all is.
Let me throw a few more words into the whole thing, so to let you and others know, what problems the young beginner Seeker has when considering joining the TS today.
A question:
How much was the Masters M and KH really involved in all this TS, ES versus the Home Rule League, Indian National Congress - and a mysterious or non-mysterious A. I. Branch or A.I.B.S.???
Let me give it a try and seek to bind som knots with the past events and relating it also to our presetn hour.
A. O. Hume (d. 1912) was a receiver of letters from the Masters KH and M.
Some have suggested that the Master KH and perhaps also Morya was behind A. O. Hume's initiative which led to the formation of the Indian National Congress party. A Party Annie Besant later joined and became President of in 1917, while also being President of TS and ES. (About A. O. Hume: "In 1883 he wrote an open letter to the graduates of Calcutta University, calling upon them to form their own national political movement." - http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Allan_Octavian_ Hume ) - See also Mahatma Letter . Yet, Mahatma Letter 4, 5, 28 and 57 seem to be against something formed like the Indian National Congress. Despite this some claim that Hume also got unofficial letters from the Mahatmas.
>From the The Mahatma Letters- about an A.I. Branch or A.I.B.S. or Anglo-Indian Branch
a) KH to A. P. Sinnett
" I did not ask her to tell you "to give up the idea of the A.I. Branch as nothing would come of it," but -- "to give up the idea of the Anglo-Indian Branch in co-operation with Mr. Hume, as nothing would come of it." " - Letter no. 5
http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /mahatma/ ml-con.htm
b) KH to A. O. Hume
"We (the Chiefs and I) entirely repudiate the idea that such was our hope (however we might wish it) in regard to the projected A.I. Society. The aspiration for brotherhood between our races met no response -- nay, it was pooh-poohed from the first -- and so, was abandoned even before I had received Mr. Sinnett's first letter. On his part and from the start, the idea was solely to promote the formation of a kind of club or "school of magic." It was then no "proposal" of ours, nor were we the "designers of the scheme." Why then such efforts to show us in the wrong? It was Mad. B. -- not we, who originated the idea; and it was Mr. Sinnett who took it up. Notwithstanding his frank and honest admission to the effect that being unable to grasp the basic idea of Universal Brotherhood of the Parent Society, his aim was but to cultivate the study of occult Sciences, an admission which ought to have stopped at once every further importunity on her part, she first
succeeded in getting the consent -- a very reluctant one I must say -- of her own direct chief, and then my promise of co-operation -- as far as I could go. Finally, through my mediation, she got that of our highest CHIEF, to whom I submitted the first letter you honoured me with. But, this consent, you will please bear in mind, was obtained solely under the express and unalterable condition that the new Society should be founded as a Branch of the Universal Brotherhood, and among its members, a few elect men would -- if they chose to submit to our conditions, instead of dictating theirs -- be allowed to BEGIN the study of the occult sciences under the written directions of a "Brother." But a "hot-bed of magick" we never dreamt of. Such an organization as mapped out by Mr. Sinnett and yourself is unthinkable among Europeans; and, it has become next to impossible even in India -- unless you are prepared to climb to a height of 18,000 to 20,000 amidst the
glaciers of the Himalayas." - Letter no. 28
http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /mahatma/ ml-con.htm
c) KH to A. P. Sinnett
"But to make an independent A.I.B. with the self-same objects, either in whole or apart, as the Parent Society and with the same directors behind the scenes would be not only to deal a mortal blow at the Theos. Soc. but also put upon us a double labour and anxiety without the slightest compensating advantage that any of us can perceive.".. ....."But before one builds the house he makes the plan. Suppose you draft a memorandum as to the constitution and policy of management of the A.I. Society you have in mind and submit it for consideration? If our Chiefs agree to it -- and it is not surely they who would show themselves obstructive in the universal onward march, or retard this movement to a higher goal -- then you will at once be chartered. But they must first see the plan; and I must ask you to remember that the new Society shall not be allowed to disconnect itself with the Parent Body, though you are at liberty to manage your affairs in your own way
without fearing the slightest interference from its President so long as you do not violate the general Rules." - Letter no. 4
http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /mahatma/ ml-con.htm
------- M. Sufilight asks:
Yet, we can ask ourselves, was this not almost, if not in fact what happened through Mr. Hume and Mrs. Besant with the Indian National Congress? With the difference that the - Political aspect - through the formation of the political Indian National Congress became CENTRAL instead of the Universal Brotherhood, and that the political indian National Congress now has a fuzzy half-organic connection with the TS, only known by the "freemasons" within TS and ES, or those who like me have read the right papers or "papers". - Hume got what he wanted, and the Masters lost the this round. At least to a certain extend. - And the Coulomb article "The Collapse of Koot Hoomi", which appeared in sept. 1884, did even more damage, when we read the below. - Witness just how strongly Annie Besant wants to connect the TS with the Indian National Congress.) - Well India got its independance 1947; but at what cost? - The United Nations was formed in 1945, (and this Alice A.
Bailey claims are largely controlled by Buddhic energies! -Discipleship in the New Age; 1955, Vol. II, p.220.)
- - -
2.
Later in 1922 - Annie Besant wrote the following at the same year when J. Krishnamurti began to consider his break-away, which formulated itself in 1929.
Annie Besant wrote the stunning words:
*** "The future of Indian politics" by A. Besant ***
Later in the book ( "The future of Indian politics") we have the following remarkable words by Annie Besant:
"Some English critics, in the early days of the War, angrily declared that India had taken advantage of the War to press a new claim for Dominion status. That was not so. The new departure in 1913 resembled in one marked way the new departure when the National Congress was planned in 1884. The seed of both was planted by the Theosophical Society. [No, Not true! - according to H. P. Blavatsky; BCW, vol 12, p. 304 - BCW, vol VII, p.160 - Rule XIV of the TS Constitution; - M. Sufilight] It was at the theosophical Convention of that year that a small group of earnest Theosophists- -deeply concerned for the political future of their country and aroused to a sense of her past powers and her then present impotence by the awkening crusades of H. P. Blavatsky and Henry Steele Olcott, stirring the educated to self-respect and repsect for their Nation--meeting in Adyar, decided to make an effort ofr political redemption; feeble as they seemed, they felt strong in
their belief that India's ancient Rshi'still watched over Their ancient and ever well-loved land, and would aid their efforts to bring about her political ressurection; so they gathered a small meeting in Madras-- there were only seventeen of them; [Including Sardar Dyal Singh; whom PKJ to A. A. Bailey followers interestingly thinks is Djuwal Khul; M. Sufilight]; -- and it was there decided to begin "a National movement for the saving of the Motherland" (How India Wrought for Freedom, p. 2)." (p. 25, Chapter I)
.......
"Now another step has been taken, and some of the best T.S. and E.S. workers enrolled themselves on the 20th September, 1913, in a band who have taken the following sweeping promise: "Believing that the best interests of India lie in her rising into ordered freedom under then British Crown, in the casting away of every custom which prevents union among all who dwell within her borders, and in restoration to Hinduism of social flexibility and brotherly feeling."... all this it obviously seems under "the headship and direction of the Indian National Congress." (p. 38, Chapter I)
((( Taken from Annne Besant's - "The future of Indian politics" - a contribution to the understanding of present-day problems; (1922) - Published through the apparently NON-POLITICAL: The Theosophical Publishing House! -Online version here: http://www.archive. org/details/ futureofindianpo 00besarich )))
Annie Besant wrote:
"Everything that can give rise to friction here must be stopped, so that England and India may stand together in defence of the Crown. - (New India, August 4, 1914." )
War-Propaganda by Annie Besant given by Anand Gholap:
http://www.anandgho lap.net/War_ Articles- AB.htm
- - -
So I do not think that the Masters was behind the formation of the Indian National Congress and its political ideas of Self-Government and later Self-Independance. Hume and Besant went and became way too political and damage the idea of a Universal Brotherhood - and damaged the Theosophical Society into the bargin, no matter how well-meaning they were.
>From now on, I am not hesitating in saying that unless the Theosophical Society today in year 2009, comes much more clean about its political stance, I will openly say to the members of it: YOU ARE INDEED A POLITICAL PARTY - BECAUSE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND THE NATIONAL CONGRESS PARTY. I cannot make any real distinction between the Theosophical Society and the National Congress Party of today. At least not unless this issue if clearly explained to any honest Seeker after Wisdom, who attempts to become a member of Theosophical Society.
Or else we might go and call the Theosophical Society a half-open political Freemason Society.
But what do I know, I am only an ignorant Seeker after Truth. :-)
Any comments?
M. SufilightMorten,
You have addressed your question to The Theosophical Society, which I am not. I am merely a member of the Society. To my knowledge, there is no political involvement with any political party in India or abroad as of date.
You may, however, say whatever you want to say about the Society. You have the freedom to do so, but remember that if they are false -- and your statement above to my knowledge is false today -- the results of those statements will snowball into your life.
FraternallyPreethi
----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
Dear Morten,
Again my responses in line with yours...and PLEASE do remember that I am only giving my understanding. ..there are many with other views, and I do request them to share these...so we can each of us broaden our own view...
--- On Tue, 29/12/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Tuesday, 29 December, 2009, 4:16 PM
Dear Preethi and friends
My views are:
Thank you for answering.
1. Preethi wrote:
"Preethi's comment: Perhaps none of us have the answer"...etc. etc.
M. Sufilight says:
Allright.
2.
M. Sufilight says:
Thank your for your eloquent rendering of the three Objects of the TS.
Here in Scandinavia, I call it "to Keep the Light burning brighter and brighter" or just "to Keep the Light".
Yet, it seems to me, that you also are saying that we need to accept certain theosophical teachings and the seven-fold scheme of the planes given by Blavatsky and others, when we join the TS. - I ask: Are there any present day offical angle of interepretation or elaboration of the three Objects, that you are aware of?
Preeth's comment: I was not giving any official understanding of the Three Objects of the TS, Morten, but my own understanding of it. Truth would be dead if every living individual were to stop contributing to It. There might be an official angle of interpretation as you call it, but I am not the best person to ask that question of.
I find that I will reformulate my previous question.
I ask:
I will now ask you, if you are aware of how the FIRST of these objects of The Theosophical Society aught to be understood in general when we learn that the TS requires acceptance of freedom of thought and at the same time gives importance to the actual promotion of (past) political leaders from the Indian National Congress?
Morten, to my knowledge -- I may be wrong here, so do feel free to correct me -- Mrs Besant was already part of the TS and its President when she got involved with the freedom struggle of India.
I am a bit confused or unclear why you are saying that freedom of thought is an issue. I think the only way to practice Universal Brotherhood of humanity is to accept the Freedom of every individual to think for him/herself.
And as I said earlier, the rules or laws that governed AB's life were different -- to my understanding, of course -- than those that governed HPB's, for HPB was essentially an occultist and a true occultist has much more to do with the internal world or Higher Life than with social, political, religious, or any other lesser world. I must stress here that the fact that political, social, or religious are lesser in no way takes away from their essentiality and their importance. There are many spheres of work in the working out of the Divine Plan.
3.
Preethi wrote:
"Preethi's comment: I am not aware that there was an injunction such as this existing in the TS, but in view of my
understanding above, I would say it follows; for, what is politics but a creation of the mind that seeks security through outer forms and identities? In politics, one would find games, masks, manipulations, divisions, etc. Brotherhood does not exist in these divisions. Brotherhood exists beyond them. And yet, it is through the ephemeral that one glimpses the Eternal...so let us not be hasty in chucking the ephemeral. Let us instead remember that it is ephemeral and things Eternal exist beyond and within the ephemeral."
M. Sufilight says:
Allright. No I just formulated such an attempted expansion or elaboration of the Three Objects of the TS.
I find it difficult to agree upon, that your interpretation of the TS object of an Universal Brotherhood are in accordance with your views on politics. Do you understand why?
Are the members of the TS today aware of their political involvement when they become members of the TS - and that they at the same time appearntly are expected to hail Annie Besant as a great leader of the TS and also her POLITICAL work?
Preethi's comment: Mrs Besant's political work was one of the many facets of her entire lifetime's work. And no, at least in the 16 years I have been associated with the TS, I have found not even once that someone forced me to hail AB as a leader. We appreciate -- she has been my inspiration since schooldays -- her many facets and the immensity of her untiring efforts to save humanity at different levels -- from political to spiritual. No one can really deny her contribution to a young, identity-seeking India; however, one is free to question that.
At Adyar, we talk mostly of her many written works on the Religions of the World, her work with CWL and such other. The political bit is not really stressed much; but, on the other hand, it is not ignored either. I do not really see a problem with that.
(See TS Adyar website: With Mrs. Besant a new era began. She gave a great lead in making Theosophy practical, urging members to theosophize the various fields: religious, social, economic, political. http://www.ts- adyar.org/ history.html )
This last word "political" I will not give my sympathy. Look in the below and try to review my previous e-mail with the quotes from H. P. Blavatsky.
Anyways, what is the official stance from the TS about this New Era compared with the past of the TS? What New was there?
Preethi's comment: Perhaps someone else can answer that better. I am, truthfully speaking, not very politically- oriented either. My own inner calling is much more in line with HPB's rather than anyone else after her.
- - -
4. With the above political acceptance on the TS Adyar website, I will throw a few more links...
War Articles by Annie Besant:
http://www.anandgho lap.net/War_ Articles- AB.htm
Article from New York Times, 1921
"Mrs. Besant Looses Suit for Slander"
http://query. nytimes.com/ mem/archive- free/pdf? _r=2&res= 9F06E3D71731EF33 A25754C2A9619C94 6095D6CF
ANNIE BESANT said in the "Theosophist, " Supplement for March, 1894:
"My work in the sphere of politics is over, and I shall never resume it....
"I say this in answer to your suggestion that I should be aroused to take interest in Indian 'affairs.' To be able to lay at the feet of India any service is to me full reward for the many sufferings of a stormy life through which the power of service has been won. But the India that I love and reverence, and would fain see living among the nations, is not an India westernized, rent with the struggles of political parties, heated with the fires of political passions, with a people ignorant and degraded, while those who might have raised them are fighting for the loaves and fishes of political triumph. I have seen too much of this among the 'progressed and civilized nations' of the West to have any desire to see such a civilization over-spreading what was Aryavarta. The India to which I belong in faith and heart is ... a civilization in which spiritual knowledge was accounted highest title to honour, and in which the whole people reverenced and sought
after spiritual truth. To help in turning India into another Great Britain or another Germany, is an ambition that does not allure me; the India I would give my life to help in building, is an India learned in the ancient philosophy, pulsing with the ancient religion, -- an India to which all other lands should look for spiritual light, -- where the life of all should be materially simple, but intellectually noble and spiritually sublime.
"The whole of my life and of my energies are given to the Theosophical Society, because the Society is intended to work in all nations for the realisation of this spiritual ideal; for the sake of this it deliberately eschews all politics, embraces men of parties, welcomes men of all faiths, declines to ostracise any man, any party or any faiths. I may not mingle in a political fray which would make one temporary party regard me with enmity; for the message of spiritual life belongs equally to both and may not be rendered unacceptable by its bearer wearing a political garment which is a defiance of those clad in other political robes. The politician must ever be at war; my mission is one of peace. Therefore I enter not the political field; and in the religious field I seek to show men of every faith that they share a common spiritual heritage and should look through the forms that divide them to the spirit that makes them one. It is the recognition of
this which makes Hinduism ever a non-proselyting religion....
"I write this lengthy explanation of my absolute refusal to have anything to do with politics because any expression of love and confidence from Indians goes straight to my heart, ... because I honestly believe that the future of India, the greatness of India and the happiness of her people, can never be secured by political methods, but only by the revival of her philosophy and religion. To this, therefore, I must give all my energies, and I must refuse to spread them over other fields."
ANNIE BESANT."
M. Sufilight asks:
So one becomes a Leader of the TS and ES saying that one will not at all dabble with politics. In 1891 on would be expelled if one involved oneself in political disputes. - And then one changes and does the exact OPPOSITE twenty years later without any clear explanation at all???
Morten, truthfully, the only person who can answer that question is not myself, but Mrs Besant herself.
Is that aiming at an Universal Brotherhood of Humanity based on Wisdom?
That question's answer is rather apparent, isn't it? So I leave it to answer for itself. :-)
- - -
Almost everytime one ask members of the TS about the above issue they remain silent.
M. Sufilight
Well, trust you are satisfied that you received an answer, though from a veritable ignoramus who is trying to broaden her own understanding.
FraternallyPreethi
----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
Dear Morten,
I am merely a member of the TS. However, I do have intelligence of my own and understandings, which I am quite willing to share...My responses are in line with yours, so please do read on...
--- On Mon, 28/12/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Monday, 28 December, 2009, 8:34 PM
Dear Preethi and friends
My views are:
Thanks Preethi.
I will dare ask a few questions in light of our exchange.
It is of course entirely up to you if you will seek to provide an answer. Maybe Keith Fisher has the answer.Preethi' s comment: Perhaps none of us have the answer and that is WHY we need to have an open mind to listen to other viewpoints.. .and to share the little we know with each other...
>>> From the TS Adyar website we have the following objects <<<
Its three declared objects are :
To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color.
To encourage the study of Comparative Religion, Philosophy and Science.
To investigate unexplained laws of Nature and the powers latent in man.
http://www.ts- adyar.org/ objects.html
(A)
I will now ask you, if you are aware of how these objects of The Theosophical Society aught to be understood?Preethi' s statement: My own understanding of that would be that we need to understand these from the heart, rather than the mind. At heart, there is only One Object of the TS -- divided for convenience of understanding into Three. Does it not occur to you, dear Morten, that the Three Objects -- so stated -- are merely representations of the Heart or Buddhi (First Object), the Mind or Manas (Second Object) and the Soul or Atma (Third Object)? Find me a human entity with the absence of any of these three Eternal Principles. Thus each human being is a receptacle of all the three -- Heart, Mind and Soul -- principles, for the COMBINED development and perfection of which the TS was founded.
PLEASE NOTE, dear Morten, that the Mind is placed below the Heart and above the Soul in the statement of the Three Objects. I believe there is a purpose for that as well. The Mind -- if it is well-oiled or functioning -- is guided by the Heart (intuition from above or buddhi) and rooted in the Eternal Verities (given to it through the Atma or Soul) or the Oneness out of which all emanated. Such a Mind will never -- as the Masters say in Their letters -- turn the powers to selfish ends. We, as members of the TS -- whatever be our calling in the world outside -- are exhorted to remember this, as we subscribe annually or lifetime to the TS...that our Mind must be a mere instrument for the Divine Plan to unfold through the Heart and the Soul. And all the problem -- including the current Divide in the TS -- all the wars and conflicts that we see in the world of today ensues from the Mind that is stuck -- if I may use that term -- to itself and has forgotten
that it is a mere instrument, albeit a necessary one.
How do the TS relate to the following thoughts:
An expanding on the Object of TS about Universal Brotherhood:
The TS objects aims to avoid turning TS into a political party or that TS should be viewed as a the producer of such a one. Therefore no leaders of TS can hold their offices and at the same time be members of political parties of any kind. Neither officially or non-officially. With political parties we are talking about those groups and organisations, which are aiming at formulating physical laws on paper, digitalized or similar created by the human hand, and by non-divine hand; i.e. laws based on human penalty-making. - We hold it to be true, that the human ethics of a Universal Brotherhood (Fellowship ?) comes from within each individual and not through what is written in any laws by human hand or any laws by non-divine hand. - Any leader or official of the TS going against this aim - will run the risk of being expelled from the TS.Preethi's comment: I am not aware that there was an injunction such as this existing in the TS, but in view of my
understanding above, I would say it follows; for, what is politics but a creation of the mind that seeks security through outer forms and identities? In politics, one would find games, masks, manipulations, divisions, etc. Brotherhood does not exist in these divisions. Brotherhood exists beyond them. And yet, it is through the ephemeral that one glimpses the Eternal...so let us not be hasty in chucking the ephemeral. Let us instead remember that it is ephemeral and things Eternal exist beyond and within the ephemeral.
(It might of course need reformulation. )
- - - - - - -
(B)
A few quotes by Blavatsky...
H. P. Blavatsky said:
"I have never written in all my life on politics, of which I know nothing. I take no interest in political intrigues, regarding them as the greatest nuisance and a bore, the most false of all systems in the code of ethics. I feel the sincerest pity for those diplomats who, being honourable men, are nevertheless obliged to deceive all their lives, and to embody a living, walking LIE." (H. P. Blavatsky)
http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v10/y1889_ 004.htm
HPB said in 1883:
"Neither the Tibetan nor the modern Hindu Mahatmas for the matter of that, ever meddle with politics, though they may bring their influence to bear upon more than one momentous question in the history of a nationâtheir mother country especially."
(Blavatsky Collected Writings, Volume 6 Page 15 )
http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v6/y1883_ 167.htm
HPB said in 1886:
{"XIV. The Society having to deal only with scientific and philosophical subjects, and having Branches in different parts of the world under various forms of Government, does not permit its members, as such, to interfere with politics, and repudiates any attempt on the part of anyone to commit it in favor or against any political party or measure. Violation of this rule will meet with. Expulsion."
This rather alters the complexion put on the charge, which seems conveniently to forget that "scientific and philosophical subjects" are not the only declared objects of the Society. Let us not leave room for a doubt that there is more animus underlying the charges than would be strictly theosophical. }
http://www.theosoph y-nw.org/ theosnw/theos/ th-origp. htm
Preethi's Comment: HPB was an occultist, Morten. That is, the Laws of the Occult World ruled her life. Those Laws do not apply to everyone else, for whom there are laws according to their own, shall we say, "vocation" or "calling"... .or stage of evolution, if you please.
You might or might not agree with this, but this feature is seen throughout the ages in all the Sacred Scriptures and ancient wisdom writings. So, for example, in the Hindu philosophy of the original division of castes and what becomes the members of each caste, we have binding rules, regulations and injunctions for the members of each caste. A Brahmin might not smoke, drink or eat meat. He needed to lead a very simple life living off the donations or gifts from others. This same system of living was followed by the monks of all religions that came after in some form or another. However, in the same religious text or philosophy, it was okay for a Kshattriya or Vaisya or Sudra to drink or use other substances; rich food; lavish lifestyle according to their status and affording; while the Sudra was allowed to eat meat as well.
This is quite simply also stated in the Mahatma Letters when the Masters say [I am not quoting verbatim here, so please do check the text fully in the ML] that in Their eyes an honest bootlegger has higher status than a dishonest king.
ANNIE BESANT
Annie Besant said in her Presidential Address in 1917 - to the Indian National Congress:
"In the adapted words of a Christian Scripture, it passionately cries: "What shall it profit a Nation if it gain the whole world and lose its own Soul? What shall a Nation give in exchange for its Soul?" "
.......
"This may seem strong language, because the plain truth is not usually put in India. But this is what every Briton feels in Britain for his own country, and what every Indian should feel in India for his. This is the Freedom for which the Allies are fighting; this is Democracy, the Spirit of the Age. "
.......
"And from that union shall arise the mightiest Empire, or rather Commonwealth, that the world has ever known, a Commonwealth that, in God's good time, shall put an end to War."
http://whiskypedia. valeriodistefano .com/Gutenberg% 20Project% 20-%20HTML% 20-%20vol. %2004/HTML/ 1/2/8/2/12820/ 12820-h/12820- h.htm
Annie Besant was quite obviously not an Occultist; so the Occult Laws which HPB was stating for anyone desirous to follow the Occult Path in the future, do not hold for AB.Based on my understanding of the Three Objects as they are stated, I would say that HPB most expressed the Three Objects, but almost everyone else who came with or after her personified or expressed one or two of the Three Objects -- something like the keynote of their life. Our current international President, for example, personifies the Second Object; though she also reflects to a lesser or greater degree the other Two Objects. Her Mind functions superbly. It is what comes through in every speech she makes; in all her writings...in the example of her life...
CJ had a balance of the Three; N Sri Ram of the Three as well....but with a leaning to the First Two....But, this is only my understanding. ...and I am a fallible human being.M. Sufilight ask:
Now I wonder, what kind of Universal Brotherhood TS are aiming at these days when relating it self to political and non-political involvement? Preethi's comment: You would have to define that for me, Morten. I am totally at sea about this political and non-political involvement of the TS these days....Could you explain this further?
I hope I have not bored you with my long exposition. If I have, kindly forgive me in advance.
M. Sufilight
Much warmth
Preethi----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
Dear Morten,
Thank you for your words and honesty. Thank you also for the words from the Masters of the Wisdom.
Fallible as I am, I do not mind when I am subject to scrutiny by the readers of my words. My aim in all these is anyway NOT to find blind believers, but rather to awaken the questioning mind that will eventually bathe the TS with its freshness. That QUESTIONING MIND is sorely and urgently needed in the TS today. A mind that is not content with Conclusions and thus has the courage ever to keep questioning, to keep asking, to keep seeking, to find its own inner essentiality rather than blindly following the outer authority(ies) .
Fraternally
Preethi
--- On Sat, 26/12/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, 26 December, 2009, 4:11 PM
Dear Preethi
My views are:
Just to let you know.
I have a tendency to support your efforts. A tendency, that is.
I will for one - out of compassion - support your views so far as they seek to persuade the Editors and leaders at TS to - so to speak - set the record straight on various areas of theosophical thought and schims (changes in views political, sexual, on the aims of TS, and its constitution/ doctrines if any etc. etc. ), which for years have created confusion among truly Honest Seekers After Truth and Wisdom + Compassion. - The question is whether those who has the option are willing, capeable and kind enough to do so - and to do it in the name of Compassion?
Is it an expression of wisdom and compassion to keep in silence what the aims of the TS really are, when so many Seekers are waiting at the doorstep of the TS and will not enter because, the leaders embarassingly avoid or will not in any - clear and precise manner - reveal the aims of the TS for those who might be interested in joining the TS.
Try to listen carefully to the following...
Master Morya said the following very wiise words:
"I say then that it is the vilification and abuse of the founders, the general misconception of the aims and objects of the Society that paralyses its progress -- nothing else. There's no want of definitiveness in these objects were they but properly explained. The members would have plenty to do were they to pursue reality with half the fervour they do mirage. I am sorry to find you comparing Theosophy to a painted house on the stage whereas in the hands of true philanthropists and theosophists it might become as strong as an impregnable fort. The situation is this: men who join the Society with the one selfish object of reaching power making occult science their only or even chief aim may as well not join it -- they are doomed to disappointment as much as those who commit the mistake of letting them believe that the Society is nothing else. It is just because they preach too much "the Brothers" and too little if at all Brotherhood that they fail. How
many times had we to repeat, that he who joins the Society with the sole object of coming in contact with us and if not of acquiring at least of assuring himself of the reality of such powers and of our objective existence -- was pursuing a mirage? I say again then. It is he alone who has the love of humanity at heart, who is capable of grasping thoroughly the idea of a regenerating practical Brotherhood who is entitled to the possession of our secrets. He alone, such a man -- will never misuse his powers, as there will be no fear that he should turn them to selfish ends. A man who places not the good of mankind above his own good is not worthy of becoming our chela -- he is not worthy of becoming higher in knowledge than his neighbour. If he craves for phenomena let him be satisfied with the pranks of spiritualism. Such is the real state of things. There was a time, when from sea to sea, from the mountains and deserts of the north to the grand woods
and downs of Ceylon, there was but one faith, one rallying cry -- to save humanity from the miseries of ignorance in the name of Him who taught first the solidarity of all men. How is it now? Where is the grandeur of our people and of the one Truth? These, you may say, are beautiful visions which were once realities on earth, but had flitted away like the light of a summer's evening. Yes; and now we are in the midst of a conflicting people, of an obstinate, ignorant people seeking to know the truth, yet not able to find it for each seeks it only for his own private benefit and gratification, without giving one thought to others. Will you, or rather they, never see the true meaning and explanation of that great wreck and desolation which has come to our land and threatens all lands -- yours first of all? It is selfishness and exclusiveness that killed ours, and it [is] selfishness and exclusiveness that will kill yours -- which has in addition some
other
defects which I will not name. The world has clouded the light of true knowledge, and selfishness will not allow its resurrection, for it excludes and will not recognise the whole fellowship of all those who were born under the same immutable natural law. "
http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /mahatma/ ml-38.htm
Let the Leaders of the TS listen, because they are still important today!
- I ask compassionately: How can the theosophical aims be truly followed, when some of the teachers and TS Leaders of the past are turned into prominent ones, and into gurus on the level of Masters and Avatars - when a number of them at the same time are being dragged through the mud of confusion and deceit?
In the old days, none sought to promote waste of time - and - any issue of importance to the main teachings was most often solved and the stance of TS was set straight when understandable doubt crept in among the members. - Yet, Errare Humanum Est, also TS it seems.
- - -
Sometimes I wonder whether the Parliament of the World Relgiions are doing a more grand effort than we theosophists are these days. An effort of ending the strifes between the worlds religions - and the promotion of altruism and theosophy, while rejecting the pernicious dogmatic teachings of the Christians and others.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
Have a heart, MKR. I have never used a pseudonym on this or any other site and I have been telling you all the way it is at Adyar and the rules that are broken or manipulated by the President in order for her continue on that post, and yet my words have been ignored, disbelieved and my integrity questioned.
So I am sure the pseudonym is not the problem. The problem basically is whether or not the information being given out is suited to or convenient for the President and her aides. When the information given is to their advantage it is accepted, praised and made a hue and cry about. When the information given is to their disadvantage -- as bringing to light the various hypocrisies, atrocities, corruptions etc. of the Presidential party -- then the information is disbelieved.
Fraternally
Preethi
--- On Sat, 26/12/09, MKR <mkr777@gmail. com> wrote:
From: MKR <mkr777@gmail. com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, 26 December, 2009, 7:11 AM
One never knows if the info is untrue, half true or just simply false, until
there is corroborative confirmation. That is one of the fundamental issues
with info coming from pseudonymers.
Also when information comes from non-pseudonymers, our past experience with
the individuals gives a degree of confidence and trust in the info being
true.
Usually the pseudonymers sign on and post some messages and disappear.
MKR
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 10:41 AM, <Drpsionic@aol. com> wrote:
>
>
> I have no problem with psuedonyms. If the information is true, it does
> not matter under which name it comes from.
>
>
> Chuck the Heretic
>
> _www.charlescosiman o.com
>
> In a message dated 12/24/2009 7:38:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> mkr777@gmail. com <mkr777%40gmail. com> writes:
>
> I will leave it to the reader to make up their minds about the pseudonym
> issue. Many times, it is used by people to keep their personal reputation
> mask clear. Because, once you write something with your own name, you have
> to standby what one writes.
>
> The disenfranchisement issue is very very serious. If the coup had
> succeeded, we will not be talking here, because there is nothing to talk
> about and all information would have been shut like a clam shell. What is
> more important is that members were able to make up their minds about the
> Quartet who tried the ultra secret attempt. This issue is not going to go
> away, because it is an extremely serious issue with the future of TS and
> its
> members.
>
> MKR
>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 7:28 PM, preethi muthiah
>
> <
>
> _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _seeker_preethi@ seeker_pr_
> (mailto:seeker_ preethi@ yahoo.com <seeker_preethi% 40yahoo.com> ) _>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > MKR,
> >
> > Might I be permitted to say here that the Message is more important than
> > the Messenger. The issue is not so much "who sent the message" than what
> the
> > Contents of the message tell us about the current administration, or
> shall I
> > say, Misadministration?
> >
> > Why does it not occur to you -- a seeker after the Truth -- that people
> > must need to use pseudonyms for FEAR of facing the repercussions of their
> > declarations? And what, O Truth Seeker, is FEAR doing in an organization
> > that declares TRUTH as its Motto? Doesn't the contradiction and
> dichotomy of
> > it hit you, MKR?
> >
> > Why is there SO MUCH FEAR in the Theosophical Society? Why is there the
> > FEAR of the President? Where did that FEAR take root?
> >
> > Fraternally
> >
> > Preethi
> >
> > --- On Fri, 25/12/09, MKR <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ )
> _mkr777@gmail. mkr <_mkr777%40gmail. mkr>_ (mailto:mkr777@ gmail. com<mkr777%40gmail. com>)
> _ <mkr777%40gmail. mkr>> wrote:
> >
> > From: MKR <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _mkr777@gmail. mkr<_mkr777% 40gmail. mkr>_
>
> (mailto:mkr777@ gmail. com <mkr777%40gmail. com>) _ <mkr777%40gmail. mkr>>
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues
> -
> > Contradictions & Question that
> > To: _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_
> (mailto:theos- talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>)
> <theos-talk% theos-talk% <WBthe>
> > Date: Friday, 25 December, 2009, 6:41 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for posting.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know who is the writer of the message.
> >
> > Theosophical society members around the world are a small community and
> as
> >
> > such most know each other, especially if they are active.
> >
> > Also many times, when you look at the depth of knowledge shown by the
> >
> > writers using pseudonyms, it is usually someone very close to the
> >
> > administration and/or the leaders, past and present.
> >
> > Persons who stand up with their own names behind messages are highly
> >
> > regarded because they stake their reputation in what they say and
> displays
> >
> > the integrity of the person.
> >
> > On the other hand, you cannot ignore the identity from the message.
> >
> > Of late many theosophists are fine tuning the techniques of hiding behind
> >
> > pseudonyms and claim that message is important.
> >
> > It would be interesting to see any responses.
> >
> > MKR
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 6:32 PM, seeker__preethi <seeker_preethi@
> yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Dear All,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I received the below via email and thought I would pass it on to
> > TheosTalk
> >
> > > as well. Lots of things to ponder about, don't you think?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Fraternally
> >
> > > Preethi
> >
> > >
> >
> > > From: Brotherhood Of Theosophy [mailto:brotherhood From: Br_
> (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _phy@gmail.com <_phy%40gmail. com>_
> (mailto:phy@gmail.com <phy%40gmail. com>)
> _<brotherhoodoftheo s ophy%40gmail. com>
>
> >
> >
> > > ]
> >
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:56 AM
> >
> > > To: brotherhoodoftheoso phy
>
> >
> > > Subject: Election of the Vice-President & related issues -
> Contradictions
> > &
> >
> > > Question that deserve answers
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradictions &
> > Question
> >
> > > that deserve answers
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 1. Preethi in _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _http://groups. _
> (http://groups. /) _ yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 53509
> >
> > >
> >
> > > How was Linda Oliveira elected as Vice President of the TS BEFORE the
> >
> > > General Council meeting of December 2008 could be held? In that
> meeting a
> >
> > > vote was taken to ELECT her as Vice President of the TS, while
> actually
> > the
> >
> > > international President had already made that announcement in the
> >
> > > Theosophist of December 2008, which issue of the Theosophist was
> printed
> > in
> >
> > > the Month of November 2008 -- ONE MONTH before the GENERAL COUNCIL
> > MEETING.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 2. Keith Fisher at _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ )
> _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/
>
> > 53513
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Dear Preethi
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The result of the Vice President election could be printed in the
> > December
> >
> > > issue of the Theosophist because the election was completed in October
> > 2008.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The President nominated Linda Oliveira for Vice President on 20
> September
> >
> > > 2008, the closing date for voting was 20 October, and the result was
> > first
> >
> > > declared on 29 October 2008. As International Secretary, I presented to
> > the
> >
> > > General Council meeting on 25 December 2008, a document showing how GC
> >
> > > members had voted and the actual voting slips for confirmation of the
> > votes
> >
> > > cast. These were scrutinized by the GC members present and found to be
> >
> > > correct.
> >
> > > Keith
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 3. The actual minutes of the General Council Meeting of 25 December
> 2008
> >
> > > states:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > "The voting slips were scrutinized by some of the members of the
> General
> >
> > > Council and Mrs. Linda Oliveira was declared elected as the
> > Vice-President
> >
> > > of the Society."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 4. Rule 11
> >
> > >
> >
> > > `Within three months of assuming office the President shall nominate
> the
> >
> > > Vice President subject to confirmation by the General Council.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 5. By every one's own admission, election was required to be confirmed
> by
> >
> > > the General Council!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 6. Question that deserves answer
> >
> > >
> >
> > > If a confirmation was required in the 25 December 2008 General Council
> >
> > > meeting, and because minutes of this meeting also states that Linda
> > Oliveira
> >
> > > was declared elected only on 25 December 2008 how is it fair and honest
> > to
> >
> > > declare on 29 October 2008 that she is the Vice-President and to make
> the
> >
> > > announcement in the December month's Theosophist which was actually
> > printed
> >
> > > in November 2008? By such action, the General Council has been treated
> > with
> >
> > > contempt and it is an insult to the General Council members.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 7. The violations of rules in election (?) of additional members of
> the
> >
> > > General Council are also shameful and reflect the manipulations and
> utter
> >
> > > cynical contempt for rules, procedures, for ordinary members and
> General
> >
> > > Council members of The Theosophical Society.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > All functions of Linda as vice-president and of the additional general
> >
> > > council members elected (?) in 2008 cannot be treated legal.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Reply by Govert Schuller 18 hours ago
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Dear Adyarwoman,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This issue only looks like a non-sinister technicality.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > What was the exact text of the December 2008 Theosophist regarding
> Mrs.
> >
> > > Oliveira's status?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Probably she should have been called "Vice President Elect" from
> October
> >
> > > 29, 2008 till December 25, 2008, when she was declared "Vice President"
> >
> > > based on the acceptance of the election results by the GC.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Reply by adyarwoman 9 hours ago
> >
> > >
> >
> > > It is not 'non-sinister technically. ' It is sinister. The December
> 2008
>
> >_
> > > issue of The Theosophist printed in last week of November 2008, carries
> > the
> >
> > > following 2 information:
> >
> > > Page 85: "Mrs. Linda Oliveira was elected Vice-President with effect
> from
> >
> > > 20 October 2008."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Keith Fisher at _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _http://groups. _
> (http://groups. /) _ yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/
> > 53513
> >
> > > says "the result was first declared on 29 October 2008" , (9 days
> later!)
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The same issue of The Theosophist says on the 2nd Page in the list of
> >
> > > Presidents, Vice-Presidents etc, "Vice-President: Mrs. Linda Oliveira".
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This was a sinister attempt to prevent the existing Vice-President
> from
> >
> > > attending the General Council meeting.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This also makes a mockery of the procedure of confirmation and hence an
> >
> > > insult and contempt to the General Council members.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Reply by Govert Schuller 7 hours ago
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I see. That's why I asked for the text. Thank you.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > For full information, visit
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _http://theosophical _
> (http://theosophical /) _ .ning.com/ forum/topics/ the-ts-in- crisis-new?
> > id=2060685% 3ATopic%3A40419& page=-1#comments
>
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.
> > _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _http://in.yahoo. http_
> (http://in.yahoo. com/) _
>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ )
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo. com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo. com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo. com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo. com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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