Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
Dec 28, 2009 07:04 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen
Dear Preethi and friends
My views are:
Thanks Preethi.
I will dare ask a few questions in light of our exchange.
It is of course entirely up to you if you will seek to provide an answer. Maybe Keith Fisher has the answer.
>>> From the TS Adyar website we have the following objects <<<
Its three declared objects are :
To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color.
To encourage the study of Comparative Religion, Philosophy and Science.
To investigate unexplained laws of Nature and the powers latent in man.
http://www.ts-adyar.org/objects.html
(A)
I will now ask you, if you are aware of how these objects of The Theosophical Society aught to be understood?
How do the TS relate to the following thoughts:
An expanding on the Object of TS about Universal Brotherhood:
The TS objects aims to avoid turning TS into a political party or that TS should be viewed as a the producer of such a one. Therefore no leaders of TS can hold their offices and at the same time be members of political parties of any kind. Neither officially or non-officially. With political parties we are talking about those groups and organisations, which are aiming at formulating physical laws on paper, digitalized or similar created by the human hand, and by non-divine hand; i.e. laws based on human penalty-making. - We hold it to be true, that the human ethics of a Universal Brotherhood (Fellowship ?) comes from within each individual and not through what is written in any laws by human hand or any laws by non-divine hand. - Any leader or official of the TS going against this aim - will run the risk of being expelled from the TS.
(It might of course need reformulation.)
- - - - - - -
(B)
A few quotes by Blavatsky...
H. P. Blavatsky said:
"I have never written in all my life on politics, of which I know nothing. I take no interest in political intrigues, regarding them as the greatest nuisance and a bore, the most false of all systems in the code of ethics. I feel the sincerest pity for those diplomats who, being honourable men, are nevertheless obliged to deceive all their lives, and to embody a living, walking LIE." (H. P. Blavatsky)
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v10/y1889_004.htm
HPB said in 1883:
"Neither the Tibetan nor the modern Hindu Mahatmas for the matter of that, ever meddle with politics, though they may bring their influence to bear upon more than one momentous question in the history of a nationâtheir mother country especially."
(Blavatsky Collected Writings, Volume 6 Page 15 )
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v6/y1883_167.htm
HPB said in 1886:
{"XIV. The Society having to deal only with scientific and philosophical subjects, and having Branches in different parts of the world under various forms of Government, does not permit its members, as such, to interfere with politics, and repudiates any attempt on the part of anyone to commit it in favor or against any political party or measure. Violation of this rule will meet with. Expulsion."
This rather alters the complexion put on the charge, which seems conveniently to forget that "scientific and philosophical subjects" are not the only declared objects of the Society. Let us not leave room for a doubt that there is more animus underlying the charges than would be strictly theosophical.}
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/th-origp.htm
ANNIE BESANT
Annie Besant said in her Presidential Address in 1917 - to the Indian National Congress:
"In the adapted words of a Christian Scripture, it passionately cries: "What shall it profit a Nation if it gain the whole world and lose its own Soul? What shall a Nation give in exchange for its Soul?" "
.......
"This may seem strong language, because the plain truth is not usually put in India. But this is what every Briton feels in Britain for his own country, and what every Indian should feel in India for his. This is the Freedom for which the Allies are fighting; this is Democracy, the Spirit of the Age. "
.......
"And from that union shall arise the mightiest Empire, or rather Commonwealth, that the world has ever known, a Commonwealth that, in God's good time, shall put an end to War."
http://whiskypedia.valeriodistefano.com/Gutenberg%20Project%20-%20HTML%20-%20vol.%2004/HTML/1/2/8/2/12820/12820-h/12820-h.htm
M. Sufilight ask:
Now I wonder, what kind of Universal Brotherhood TS are aiming at these days when relating it self to political and non-political involvement?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
Dear Morten,
Thank you for your words and honesty. Thank you also for the words from the Masters of the Wisdom.
Fallible as I am, I do not mind when I am subject to scrutiny by the readers of my words. My aim in all these is anyway NOT to find blind believers, but rather to awaken the questioning mind that will eventually bathe the TS with its freshness. That QUESTIONING MIND is sorely and urgently needed in the TS today. A mind that is not content with Conclusions and thus has the courage ever to keep questioning, to keep asking, to keep seeking, to find its own inner essentiality rather than blindly following the outer authority(ies).
Fraternally
Preethi
--- On Sat, 26/12/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 26 December, 2009, 4:11 PM
Dear Preethi
My views are:
Just to let you know.
I have a tendency to support your efforts. A tendency, that is.
I will for one - out of compassion - support your views so far as they seek to persuade the Editors and leaders at TS to - so to speak - set the record straight on various areas of theosophical thought and schims (changes in views political, sexual, on the aims of TS, and its constitution/ doctrines if any etc. etc. ), which for years have created confusion among truly Honest Seekers After Truth and Wisdom + Compassion. - The question is whether those who has the option are willing, capeable and kind enough to do so - and to do it in the name of Compassion?
Is it an expression of wisdom and compassion to keep in silence what the aims of the TS really are, when so many Seekers are waiting at the doorstep of the TS and will not enter because, the leaders embarassingly avoid or will not in any - clear and precise manner - reveal the aims of the TS for those who might be interested in joining the TS.
Try to listen carefully to the following...
Master Morya said the following very wiise words:
"I say then that it is the vilification and abuse of the founders, the general misconception of the aims and objects of the Society that paralyses its progress -- nothing else. There's no want of definitiveness in these objects were they but properly explained. The members would have plenty to do were they to pursue reality with half the fervour they do mirage. I am sorry to find you comparing Theosophy to a painted house on the stage whereas in the hands of true philanthropists and theosophists it might become as strong as an impregnable fort. The situation is this: men who join the Society with the one selfish object of reaching power making occult science their only or even chief aim may as well not join it -- they are doomed to disappointment as much as those who commit the mistake of letting them believe that the Society is nothing else. It is just because they preach too much "the Brothers" and too little if at all Brotherhood that they fail. How
many times had we to repeat, that he who joins the Society with the sole object of coming in contact with us and if not of acquiring at least of assuring himself of the reality of such powers and of our objective existence -- was pursuing a mirage? I say again then. It is he alone who has the love of humanity at heart, who is capable of grasping thoroughly the idea of a regenerating practical Brotherhood who is entitled to the possession of our secrets. He alone, such a man -- will never misuse his powers, as there will be no fear that he should turn them to selfish ends. A man who places not the good of mankind above his own good is not worthy of becoming our chela -- he is not worthy of becoming higher in knowledge than his neighbour. If he craves for phenomena let him be satisfied with the pranks of spiritualism. Such is the real state of things. There was a time, when from sea to sea, from the mountains and deserts of the north to the grand woods
and downs of Ceylon, there was but one faith, one rallying cry -- to save humanity from the miseries of ignorance in the name of Him who taught first the solidarity of all men. How is it now? Where is the grandeur of our people and of the one Truth? These, you may say, are beautiful visions which were once realities on earth, but had flitted away like the light of a summer's evening. Yes; and now we are in the midst of a conflicting people, of an obstinate, ignorant people seeking to know the truth, yet not able to find it for each seeks it only for his own private benefit and gratification, without giving one thought to others. Will you, or rather they, never see the true meaning and explanation of that great wreck and desolation which has come to our land and threatens all lands -- yours first of all? It is selfishness and exclusiveness that killed ours, and it [is] selfishness and exclusiveness that will kill yours -- which has in addition some other
defects which I will not name. The world has clouded the light of true knowledge, and selfishness will not allow its resurrection, for it excludes and will not recognise the whole fellowship of all those who were born under the same immutable natural law. "
http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /mahatma/ ml-38.htm
Let the Leaders of the TS listen, because they are still important today!
- I ask compassionately: How can the theosophical aims be truly followed, when some of the teachers and TS Leaders of the past are turned into prominent ones, and into gurus on the level of Masters and Avatars - when a number of them at the same time are being dragged through the mud of confusion and deceit?
In the old days, none sought to promote waste of time - and - any issue of importance to the main teachings was most often solved and the stance of TS was set straight when understandable doubt crept in among the members. - Yet, Errare Humanum Est, also TS it seems.
- - -
Sometimes I wonder whether the Parliament of the World Relgiions are doing a more grand effort than we theosophists are these days. An effort of ending the strifes between the worlds religions - and the promotion of altruism and theosophy, while rejecting the pernicious dogmatic teachings of the Christians and others.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
Have a heart, MKR. I have never used a pseudonym on this or any other site and I have been telling you all the way it is at Adyar and the rules that are broken or manipulated by the President in order for her continue on that post, and yet my words have been ignored, disbelieved and my integrity questioned.
So I am sure the pseudonym is not the problem. The problem basically is whether or not the information being given out is suited to or convenient for the President and her aides. When the information given is to their advantage it is accepted, praised and made a hue and cry about. When the information given is to their disadvantage -- as bringing to light the various hypocrisies, atrocities, corruptions etc. of the Presidential party -- then the information is disbelieved.
Fraternally
Preethi
--- On Sat, 26/12/09, MKR <mkr777@gmail. com> wrote:
From: MKR <mkr777@gmail. com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradict
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, 26 December, 2009, 7:11 AM
One never knows if the info is untrue, half true or just simply false, until
there is corroborative confirmation. That is one of the fundamental issues
with info coming from pseudonymers.
Also when information comes from non-pseudonymers, our past experience with
the individuals gives a degree of confidence and trust in the info being
true.
Usually the pseudonymers sign on and post some messages and disappear.
MKR
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 10:41 AM, <Drpsionic@aol. com> wrote:
>
>
> I have no problem with psuedonyms. If the information is true, it does
> not matter under which name it comes from.
>
>
> Chuck the Heretic
>
> _www.charlescosiman o.com
>
> In a message dated 12/24/2009 7:38:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> mkr777@gmail. com <mkr777%40gmail. com> writes:
>
> I will leave it to the reader to make up their minds about the pseudonym
> issue. Many times, it is used by people to keep their personal reputation
> mask clear. Because, once you write something with your own name, you have
> to standby what one writes.
>
> The disenfranchisement issue is very very serious. If the coup had
> succeeded, we will not be talking here, because there is nothing to talk
> about and all information would have been shut like a clam shell. What is
> more important is that members were able to make up their minds about the
> Quartet who tried the ultra secret attempt. This issue is not going to go
> away, because it is an extremely serious issue with the future of TS and
> its
> members.
>
> MKR
>
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 7:28 PM, preethi muthiah
>
> <
>
> _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _seeker_preethi@ seeker_pr_
> (mailto:seeker_ preethi@ yahoo.com <seeker_preethi% 40yahoo.com> ) _>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > MKR,
> >
> > Might I be permitted to say here that the Message is more important than
> > the Messenger. The issue is not so much "who sent the message" than what
> the
> > Contents of the message tell us about the current administration, or
> shall I
> > say, Misadministration?
> >
> > Why does it not occur to you -- a seeker after the Truth -- that people
> > must need to use pseudonyms for FEAR of facing the repercussions of their
> > declarations? And what, O Truth Seeker, is FEAR doing in an organization
> > that declares TRUTH as its Motto? Doesn't the contradiction and
> dichotomy of
> > it hit you, MKR?
> >
> > Why is there SO MUCH FEAR in the Theosophical Society? Why is there the
> > FEAR of the President? Where did that FEAR take root?
> >
> > Fraternally
> >
> > Preethi
> >
> > --- On Fri, 25/12/09, MKR <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ )
> _mkr777@gmail. mkr <_mkr777%40gmail. mkr>_ (mailto:mkr777@ gmail. com<mkr777%40gmail. com>)
> _ <mkr777%40gmail. mkr>> wrote:
> >
> > From: MKR <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _mkr777@gmail. mkr<_mkr777% 40gmail. mkr>_
>
> (mailto:mkr777@ gmail. com <mkr777%40gmail. com>) _ <mkr777%40gmail. mkr>>
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Election of the Vice-President & related issues
> -
> > Contradictions & Question that
> > To: _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_
> (mailto:theos- talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>)
> <theos-talk% theos-talk% <WBthe>
> > Date: Friday, 25 December, 2009, 6:41 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for posting.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know who is the writer of the message.
> >
> > Theosophical society members around the world are a small community and
> as
> >
> > such most know each other, especially if they are active.
> >
> > Also many times, when you look at the depth of knowledge shown by the
> >
> > writers using pseudonyms, it is usually someone very close to the
> >
> > administration and/or the leaders, past and present.
> >
> > Persons who stand up with their own names behind messages are highly
> >
> > regarded because they stake their reputation in what they say and
> displays
> >
> > the integrity of the person.
> >
> > On the other hand, you cannot ignore the identity from the message.
> >
> > Of late many theosophists are fine tuning the techniques of hiding behind
> >
> > pseudonyms and claim that message is important.
> >
> > It would be interesting to see any responses.
> >
> > MKR
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 6:32 PM, seeker__preethi <seeker_preethi@
> yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Dear All,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I received the below via email and thought I would pass it on to
> > TheosTalk
> >
> > > as well. Lots of things to ponder about, don't you think?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Fraternally
> >
> > > Preethi
> >
> > >
> >
> > > From: Brotherhood Of Theosophy [mailto:brotherhood From: Br_
> (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _phy@gmail.com <_phy%40gmail. com>_
> (mailto:phy@gmail.com <phy%40gmail. com>)
> _<brotherhoodoftheo s ophy%40gmail. com>
>
> >
> >
> > > ]
> >
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:56 AM
> >
> > > To: brotherhoodoftheoso phy
>
> >
> > > Subject: Election of the Vice-President & related issues -
> Contradictions
> > &
> >
> > > Question that deserve answers
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Election of the Vice-President & related issues - Contradictions &
> > Question
> >
> > > that deserve answers
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 1. Preethi in _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _http://groups. _
> (http://groups. /) _ yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 53509
> >
> > >
> >
> > > How was Linda Oliveira elected as Vice President of the TS BEFORE the
> >
> > > General Council meeting of December 2008 could be held? In that
> meeting a
> >
> > > vote was taken to ELECT her as Vice President of the TS, while
> actually
> > the
> >
> > > international President had already made that announcement in the
> >
> > > Theosophist of December 2008, which issue of the Theosophist was
> printed
> > in
> >
> > > the Month of November 2008 -- ONE MONTH before the GENERAL COUNCIL
> > MEETING.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 2. Keith Fisher at _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ )
> _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/
>
> > 53513
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Dear Preethi
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The result of the Vice President election could be printed in the
> > December
> >
> > > issue of the Theosophist because the election was completed in October
> > 2008.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The President nominated Linda Oliveira for Vice President on 20
> September
> >
> > > 2008, the closing date for voting was 20 October, and the result was
> > first
> >
> > > declared on 29 October 2008. As International Secretary, I presented to
> > the
> >
> > > General Council meeting on 25 December 2008, a document showing how GC
> >
> > > members had voted and the actual voting slips for confirmation of the
> > votes
> >
> > > cast. These were scrutinized by the GC members present and found to be
> >
> > > correct.
> >
> > > Keith
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 3. The actual minutes of the General Council Meeting of 25 December
> 2008
> >
> > > states:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > "The voting slips were scrutinized by some of the members of the
> General
> >
> > > Council and Mrs. Linda Oliveira was declared elected as the
> > Vice-President
> >
> > > of the Society."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 4. Rule 11
> >
> > >
> >
> > > `Within three months of assuming office the President shall nominate
> the
> >
> > > Vice President subject to confirmation by the General Council.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 5. By every one's own admission, election was required to be confirmed
> by
> >
> > > the General Council!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 6. Question that deserves answer
> >
> > >
> >
> > > If a confirmation was required in the 25 December 2008 General Council
> >
> > > meeting, and because minutes of this meeting also states that Linda
> > Oliveira
> >
> > > was declared elected only on 25 December 2008 how is it fair and honest
> > to
> >
> > > declare on 29 October 2008 that she is the Vice-President and to make
> the
> >
> > > announcement in the December month's Theosophist which was actually
> > printed
> >
> > > in November 2008? By such action, the General Council has been treated
> > with
> >
> > > contempt and it is an insult to the General Council members.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 7. The violations of rules in election (?) of additional members of
> the
> >
> > > General Council are also shameful and reflect the manipulations and
> utter
> >
> > > cynical contempt for rules, procedures, for ordinary members and
> General
> >
> > > Council members of The Theosophical Society.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > All functions of Linda as vice-president and of the additional general
> >
> > > council members elected (?) in 2008 cannot be treated legal.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Reply by Govert Schuller 18 hours ago
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Dear Adyarwoman,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This issue only looks like a non-sinister technicality.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > What was the exact text of the December 2008 Theosophist regarding
> Mrs.
> >
> > > Oliveira's status?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Probably she should have been called "Vice President Elect" from
> October
> >
> > > 29, 2008 till December 25, 2008, when she was declared "Vice President"
> >
> > > based on the acceptance of the election results by the GC.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Reply by adyarwoman 9 hours ago
> >
> > >
> >
> > > It is not 'non-sinister technically. ' It is sinister. The December
> 2008
>
> >_
> > > issue of The Theosophist printed in last week of November 2008, carries
> > the
> >
> > > following 2 information:
> >
> > > Page 85: "Mrs. Linda Oliveira was elected Vice-President with effect
> from
> >
> > > 20 October 2008."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Keith Fisher at _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _http://groups. _
> (http://groups. /) _ yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/
> > 53513
> >
> > > says "the result was first declared on 29 October 2008" , (9 days
> later!)
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The same issue of The Theosophist says on the 2nd Page in the list of
> >
> > > Presidents, Vice-Presidents etc, "Vice-President: Mrs. Linda Oliveira".
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This was a sinister attempt to prevent the existing Vice-President
> from
> >
> > > attending the General Council meeting.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This also makes a mockery of the procedure of confirmation and hence an
> >
> > > insult and contempt to the General Council members.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Reply by Govert Schuller 7 hours ago
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I see. That's why I asked for the text. Thank you.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > For full information, visit
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _http://theosophical _
> (http://theosophical /) _ .ning.com/ forum/topics/ the-ts-in- crisis-new?
> > id=2060685% 3ATopic%3A40419& page=-1#comments
>
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.
> > _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ ) _http://in.yahoo. http_
> (http://in.yahoo. com/) _
>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/ )
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo. com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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