Theos-Talk Archives (November 2009 Message tt00194)

"When you have suffered enough you do not care about yourself any more.
You find that the only way to happiness is not to be free from
suffering but to lose yourself in something outside yourself. (The
Labors of Hercules by AAB P. 189)"
Could have been my words as wel; AAB suffered a lot in her personal life before she got her task at hand. Difference with me is, I still suffer and will never have a task at hand, hahahaha...
Actually when you consider yourself to be part of a whole, you will understand "Weltschmerz" will always be part of any individual in any time, since suffering is part of developing Strenght. The more one suffers and stay sane at the same time, the stronger one becomes. This Bodhisatva I spoke of earlier, has the strength of timeless aeons of suffering and stays in form on the pranic level. He can only overshadow physical form.
He Himself is overshadowed as well by different Beings beyond Atman, from the Parabrahmic or to use a term in Theosophic literature Para-mapad-atma-wa ie. beyond the spirit. These Beings indeed cannot go down further into form than names, the mental plane, from which any bohistava's, avatars and arhats can take form.
So to conclude this short view of mine I can leave you with the following youtube movie :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orxEawi9qro




________________________________
From: Duane Carpenter <monad_monad_monad@yahoo.com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 11:32:54 AM
Subject: Theos-World Hercules

Thank you Martin
for your wise words on the Bodhisattva and Hercules.
This is one of my favorite quotes on Hercules.
 
"When you have suffered enough you do not care about yourself any more. You find that the only way to happiness is not to be free from suffering but to lose yourself in something outside yourself. (The Labors of Hercules by AAB P. 189) 
 
Alice Bailey further comments on the most important things the disciple must master.
 
First is study where the student must understand intellectual the vast panorama of occult truths and learn their secrets. The second is meditation where the disciple learns to transmutate the gross into the divine through a serious of self imposed disciplines and the third and most important is service.
Why is service considered the most important of the three?. Because it is only in service the disciple is outside of their own wants, needs and desires however subtle, lofty or sophisticated. Only when all three of these are practiced simultaneously is the disciple then considered a fit vehicle for the descent of the Bodhisattva. Am I referring here to the same old Bhakti yoga from the past or am I referring to Agni Yoga - the Yoga of Fire that has yet to makes its appearance and full impact in the world at this time.?
Blessings Duane



________________________________
From: Martin <Mvandertak@yahoo.com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 7:16:04 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Some thoughts on current shakeup

  
The Idea of Hercules just is so wonderfull, I cannot emphasize it enough.
In my movie about the betrayal of Maitreya by so many false teachers, I
try to reflect what I felt, when I contacted the above Bodhisatva in
awake dreams I had in the past. I Imagined just for a few seconds what
small I am towards a Being like That, however I would look upon Him
just the way I look upon the Sun, or the Stars...I do not feel less, but only less developed...

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=K73c7gchM0E

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Martin <Mvandertak@yahoo. com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 12:46:58 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Some thoughts on current shakeup

Been studying the Works of Hercules especially because He represents
the eternal Bodhisatva. A Bodhisatva who will not become a Buddha
unless all before Him have become One. He represents the Mystery of
Christ, of Martyrdom and of the ageless Courage ( from the French word
Coeur meaning Heart ).
At this point in time He is working with the Hierarchies of Ophiuchus
or Serpent Bearer ( Serpentarius or snake-holder, so we bear that in
Mind don't we? ) to re-establish the 13th sign in our modern day
Astrology controlling the poison of Scorpio at the beginning of
Aquarius ( Aquarius has 2 bottles of water, 1 with deadly poison, the
other with Water of Life ).

Ophiuchus is also sign of the Medusahead ( serpent head ) being caught in a basket or
bag, to be shown to all enemies of Truth, which implies if I understand
it correctly, this Bodhisatva is about to bring Justice to todays
world. Since we are only at the start of Kali-Yuga, this may be an
encouraging move to bring people together so early before Judgement
will come at the end of this Kali Yuga. It can mean this planets Logos
will work Itself out of it's Avitchi status, it currently has.
I have been fortunate to meet this Bodhisatva several times in my
chaotic spiritual wanderings ( not in the flesh!!! ) and whenever I
meet Him, afterwards I always feel a wealth of new inspiration which I
try to Sen-zar ( meaning translating or tulku in Tibetan ) into the
things I do now in music or otherwise.
I can talk about this for another 20 webpages, however I feel others
can have a chance as well in sharing thoughts about Hercules...we may
come to an understanding of the leader of the White Bortherhood and His
work connected to earth and maybe beyond?
Alice Bailey has been good ground to give a lot information in the
early 20-ies, however she was bound to veil a lot of knowledge too,
since the forces of evil will always abuse any knowledge made public,
hence the takeover by Rockefeller of the Arcane School...be aware is
all I can say for now :-)
One last thing I want to add for now, think about poison, swineflu and
healing...understan d the Rockefellers are in control of Pharmacy ( they
also killed Royal R. Rife's work, the inventor of the
electronmicroscope and the rifemachine ( cure for all diseases, google
please )

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Duane Carpenter <monad_monad_ monad@yahoo. com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 12:18:31 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Some thoughts on current shakeup

Hi Morten
Because people do not respond in mass to your questions should not be misconstrued by you as a lack of interest nor of ability. Some of us here have more important things to do then rehash the same basics dogmnas that seem to keep surfacing in your commentaries. When you are off the âPhallic, messianic AAB crazeâ your post are full of wisdom and important information. Do some of the posters here see the futility in trying to show you other points of view since like a spring you keep flipping back to the same narrow and dogmatic rhetoric?.
These are repeat questions that have been posted here and on other thheosopical forums many times in various ways and they always seem to allude or refer amongst other things to AAB's teachings on the Reappearance of the Christ.
Many times I have given to you quotes to the effect that AAB spoke of the Christ as a universal principal of Love first and foremost and not simply a person "in the flesh" as you would say.
I understand in the Doctrine of Avatars there are many advanced beings that never because of their high development come lower than the mental plane. Alice Bailey included the idea that an Avatar called the Christ (Universal principal of Love), could be focuses not only within a group, many groups but also as an individual person at the same time. Buddha, Mohamed and Confucius to name a few advanced initiates all inhabited bodies at one time or another to do their great work and make their important contributions. . We donât designate them as âmessiahs in the fleshâ as if their sole contribution and the only level they worked on was some perverse physical one. Where do you get these biased ideas about the Bailey material?
Even the great HPB had a physical body and was considered by some to be a type of Avatar. You have somehow confused the teachings of AAB on Christ Consciousness with conventional and orthodox Christianity. All religions as you know have an orthodox and esoteric side. Esoteric Christianity is just as valid as Esoteric Buddhism, Hinduism or Sufism. The initiate always clothes the teachings in the language and culture in which they live. To those who are more advanced the teachings are given out in symbolic form and through direct intuition.
40 years of work with Bailey and Blavatsky students I cannot recall one that was as misguided about the works of AAB and what she was trying to do on her theme of the Christ as you.
Regretfully Duane Carpenter

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 4:59:40 AM
Subject: Fw: Theos-World Some thoughts on current shakeup

Dear friends

My views are:

Look at my response on the below.
A week has passed and nobody from the TS Adyar or Alice A. Bailey camps have responded to my questions.

I can therefore only conclude that those TS Adyar members and Alice A. Bailey followers - as well as their so-called leaders are NOT`able to respond, because they know within themselves, that their doctrines are false compared with the original TS programe, and that 

1) promoting a Messiah craze or a Messiah in the Flesh is and was not part of the original theosophical teaching as it was given in the original theosophical programe from 1875-1891 within the TS.

2) being involved with political disputes is not in accordance with the original TS programe, although some fleksibility with regard to communication was (and is?) allowed according to the original theosophical programe from 1875-1891 within the TS. But when a theosophical leader has involved herself or himself and the TS in political disputes - by founding a political party - then she/he aught to be expelled immediately - and certainly not in opposition be called a great leader. This is theosophical teaching. 

3) because one is allowed to affiliate another group with the TS or the Alice A. Bailey organisation promoting a Messiah in the flesh ( without equalling it with the doctrine of "Within") - one is not in accordance with the original theosophical programe from 1875-1891 within the TS.

These must be the conclusions based on the Constitutions and Rules from the period 1875-1891.
And from quotes given by H. P. Blavatsky, with a logic that spells the doom to any Messiah Craze being promoted.

Let me know if I am wrong. Then I might be of service to the Cause you follow.

- - - 

Should it not be clearly stated, that the President of The Theosophical Society or any other body of The Theosophical Society cannot affiliate any group or organisation with The Theosophical Society if it promotes dogmas as such - or - dogmas in the sense of a past Messiah in the flesh, promoted Messiah in the flesh, or future Messiah in the flesh?

What are your views?

M. Sufilight

- - -

People are always looking for leaders; that does not mean that
this is the time for a leader. The problems that a leader would be
able to resolve have not been identified. Nor does the clamor mean
that those who cry out are suitable followers. Most of the people who
demand a leader seem to have some baby's idea of what a leader
should do. The idea that a leader will walk in and we will all
recognize him and follow him and everybody will be happy strikes me
as a strangely immature atavism. Most of these people, I believe,
want not a leader but excitement. I doubt that those who cry the
loudest would obey a leader if there was one. Talk is cheap, and a
lot of the talk comes from millions of old washerwomen.
(Maybe the leaders at various theosophical groups would consider the above section.)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Some thoughts on current shakeup

Dear MKR and friends

My views are:

I will ask some question seeking to forward my modest views from what I have learnt through the years.
You might agree or disagree. The questions are asked to promote the cause - the wisdoms teachings of all ages.

There is no Religion Higher than Truth.

- - - A. - - -

* M. Sufilight asks:

Let the reader in support of the previous e-mails quotes by Foster Bailey
read the following words, and consider why, they were active in 1891, and at the same time consider if they can be said to be active today in the TS and the AAB groups.

And if they are not, consider if that is a healthy idea.
What are your views?

- - - - - - -

a)
"CONSTITUTION AND RULES
OF
THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
As Revised in Session of the General Council,
all the Section being represented,
at Adyar, December 27, 1890.

The Theosophist - January 1891

ARTICLE XIII
Offences

1. Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society In political disputes shall be immediately expelled." 

- - -

b)
"THE ORGANlSATION OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
Article by H. P. Blavatsky

[In order to leave no room for equivocation, the members of the T.S. have to be reminded of the origin of the Society in 1875. Sent to the U.S. of America in 1873 for the purpose of organizing a group of workers on a psychic plane, two years later the writer received orders from her Master and Teacher to form the nucleus of a regular Society whose objects were broadly stated as follows:

(1) Universal Brotherhood;

(2) No distinction to be made by the members between]* races, creeds, or social positions, but every member had to be judged and dealt by on his personal merits;

(3) To study the philosophies of the East--those of India chiefly, presenting them gradually to the public in various works that would interpret exoteric religions in the light of esoteric teachings;

(4) To oppose materialism and theological dogmatism in every possible way, by demonstrating the existence of occult forces unknown to Science, in Nature, and the presence of psychic and spiritual powers in Man; trying, at the same time, to enlarge the views of the Spiritualists by showing them that there are other, many other agencies at work in the production of phenomena besides the "Spirits" of the dead. Superstition had to be exposed and avoided; and occult forces, beneficent and maleficent- ever surrounding us and manifesting their presence in various ways--demonstrated to the best of our ability.

Such was the programme in its broad features. The two chief Founders were not told what they had to do, how they had to bring about and quicken the growth of the Society and results desired; nor had they any definite ideas given them concerning the outward organisation- -all this being left entirely with themselves. Thus, as the undersigned had no capacity for such work as the mechanical formation and administration of a Society, the management of the latter was left in the hands of Col. H. S. Olcott, then and there elected by the primitive founders and members--President for life. But if the two Founders were not told what they had to do, they were distinctly instructed about what they should never do, what they had to avoid, and what the Society should never become. Church organisations, Christian and Spiritual sects were shown as the future contrasts to our Society.1 "
http://www.blavatsk y.net/blavatsky/ arts/Organisatio nOfTheTheosophic alSociety. htm
http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v7/yxxxx_ 019.htm (BCW, vol. VII; 145-146)

- - - B. - - -

First I will forward the below quotes. And then I will ask a question or two.

a)
>From "The Key to Theosophy" 2nd ed., 1890:
"ENQUIRER. What is the origin of the name?

THEOSOPHIST. It comes to us from the Alexandrian philosophers, called lovers of truth, Philaletheians, from fil (phil) "loving," and ajlhvqeia (aletheia ) "truth." The name Theosophy dates from the third century of our era, and began with Ammonius Saccas and his disciples*, who started the Eclectic Theosophical system.

ENQUIRER. What was the object of this system?

THEOSOPHIST. First of all to inculcate certain great moral truths upon its disciples, and all those who were "lovers of the truth." Hence the motto adopted by the Theosophical Society: "There is no religion higher than truth." â The chief aim of the Founder of the Eclectic Theosophical School was one of the three objects of its modern successor, the Theosophical Society, namely, to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities." 

- - -
b)
H. P. Blavatsky said:
" "Theosophy teaches self-culture . . . and not control," we are told. Theosophy teaches mutual-culture before self-culture to begin with. Union is strength. It is by gathering many theosophists of the same way of thinking into one or more groups, and making them closely united by the same magnetic bond of fraternal unity and sympathy that the objects of mutual development and progress in Theosophical thought may be best achieved. "Self-culture" is for isolated Hatha Yogis, independent of any Society and having to avoid association with human beings; and this is a triply distilled SELFISHNESS. For real moral advancement- -there "where two or three are gathered" in the name of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH--there that Spirit or Theosophy will be in the midst of them. "
http://www.blavatsk y.net/blavatsky/ arts/Organisatio nOfTheTheosophic alSociety. htm
http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v7/yxxxx_ 019.htm (BCW, vol. VII; p. 160)

- - -
c)
H. P. Blavatsky said:
"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and sees its doom." (Lucifer, july 1890)
http://www.blavatsk y.net/blavatsky/ arts/ModernApost lesAndPseudoMess iahs.htm

- - -
d)
H. P. Blavatsky said:
"true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made
Flesh."
( H.P. Blavatsky's COLLECTED WRITINGS, Volume VIII)

- - -
* M. Sufilight now asks:
How will the present day TS and AAB groups avoid failing to follow either one or more of the above quotes by H. P. Blavatsky?
How will they now and in the future avoid promoting a Messiah dogma as such and a Messiah dogma in the flesh?

What are your views?
What is theosophy proper to you?

- - - C. - - -

* M. Sufilight now asks:
Should it also not be clearly stated, that the President of The Theosophical Society or any other body of The Theosophical Society cannot affiliate any group or organisation with The Theosophical Society if it promotes dogmas as such or dogmas in the sense of a past Messiah in the flesh, promoted Messiah in the flesh, or future Messiah in the flesh?
What are your views?

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: MKR 
To: theos-talk ; theos-l 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:23 PM
Subject: Theos-World Some thoughts on current shakeup

Witnessing the remarkable events starting with the nomination for the
International President, a cleverly organized attempt to defeat the sitting
President distributing unsubstantiated health issue, after the President was
re-elected with world-wide membership support, the allegations of election
procedural errors in the Indian Section and finally the most daring ultra
secret attempt to disenfranchise all members world-wide and seize control of
the President and finally the display of wide cleavage in the General
Council meeting are crisis developments TS never seen since Coloumb affair
which shook TS to its roots. Current disaster was averted due to Internet
being available to keep members around the world fully informed without
interference from the leaders.

HPB had her share of problems from TS and she had mentioned that the
troubles have always been from within. Even during Besantâs time, she had
her share of troubles and again she had stated that they are from within and
arising from the esoteric section members.

In the light of the above, I was fortunate to find a very interesting piece
of information in Joseph Rossâ recent book - The New Krotona from Hollywood
to Ojai - Vol III. (The book can be ordered from ebay.com).

Foster Bailey (husband of Alice Bailey) writing in The Beacon (1922) made
some very interesting comments. I am quoting it below, since it might be of
great interest to some here.

+++
Foster Bailey begins with a quotation from The Key to Theosophy:

"Enq. But if you have such wise and good men to guide the Society, how is it
that so many mistakes have been made?"

"Theo. The Masters do NOT guide the Society, nor even the Founders; and no
one has ever asserted that they did: they only watch over and protect it.
This is amply proved by the fact that no mistakes have been able to cripple
it, and no scandals from within, nor the most damaging attacks from without,
have been able to overthrow it. The Masters look at the future, not at the
present, and every mistake is so much more accumulated wisdom for the days
to come. That other "Master" who sent the man with the five talents did not
tell him how to double them, nor
did he prevent the foolish servant from burying his one talent in the
earth." H.PB.

We all recognize the unity of life which lies behind that expression of
Brotherhood to which every theosophist has subscribed. We cannot begin to
live Brotherhood until we have recognized and felt "Group consciousness. "
Co-operation is the beginning of Brotherhood, it is learning to work in
group formation, it is the Keynote of the NewRace.

It is possible to be a theosophist without being a member of a Theosophical
Society, but under the Law of Brotherhood which works toward unity and group
consciousness, once having joined this Brotherhood organization we have the
opportunity to work with our brother members for the common cause; a cause,
by the way, which is not the building of a great Society, or the
establishing of a theosophical system of thought, as such, but the
presenting of the Ageless Wisdom to our fellow men in whatever aspect and
degree is most needed for the helping of the Race. To aid the group to help
the world, that Is the true objective of the individual member.

To refuse longer to work in group formation because we dislike certain
prominent ones, or our immediate co-workers, or because we are disgusted
with things as we find them with in the group, is failure. It means
inability to discriminate between the essential and the less essential and
must bring the hard karma of delay in the plan and of failure to use
opportunity earned.

The great mass of humanity works out its karma under the Law generally quite
unaided by individual help. The Masters work primarily with groups and a
discipleâs usefulness and progress is measured not alone by his prominence,
brilliance or virtue but by his increasing ability to raise the rate of
vibration of ever larger groups.

The Disciple, however, because he has recognized the Law of Sacrifice and is
pledged to Service, is given special aid and protection. This aid very
largely takes the form of opportunity to balance his karma as he goes along,
and to work off old karma as fast as is consistent with the work in hand.
One of the main lessons of the Initiate is to learn to balance his own
karma, for it is because the Master automatically and immediately balances
his karma that he can work in the three worlds and yet remain free. Because
the Disciple and the Initiate have elected consciously to submit to a
forcing process in their own evolution in order that they may the better
serve, they necessarily make more mistakes than those not subjected to so
great a strain and the resulting karma would render them quite useless for
long periods of time if the Master did not help them to adjust it at
frequent intervals.

As there is individual karma so also there is group karma and a wise
comprehension of the present situation in the T.S. requires some
understanding of this factor.

The Theosophical Society is a group which has consciously chosen to accept
this forcing process in order to be an instrument for the Masters in world
service. It is therefore in somewhat the same relation to the group of
Masters as the Disciple is to his own Guru and it may therefore expect the
same increased number of mistakes, the same resulting karmic crises and the
same kind of adjusting help. This help it receives for, "no mistakes have
been able to cripple it and no scandals have been able to overthrow it."

One thing which the Society does in a most peculiar and interesting and
often in a most uncomfortable way, is to take an apparently indiscriminate
lot of ordinary humanity and begin at once to make occultists of them. Very
naturally this motley crowd, of which you and I are parts, makes quite a
mess of it and gets all stirred up every once and a while and this very
business of being-all stirred up saves its life. The usefulness of the
theosophical group would, as in the case of the Disciple, be very quickly
destroyed, if its karma were not apportioned in time, adjusted in intensity
and arranged for the further teaching of those who participate therein. This
is the protection given our Society. This the Masters do for us, using the
mistakes of the leaders and members to create situations whereby the
individuals may be stirred to that independent thought and action which
produces the needed balancing and adjustment and liberates force and energy
for larger constructive usefulness.

This is what is going on at the present time within the Theosophical
Society. The period of adjustment is the period during which the unit is
forced to consider the condition and the welfare of his group. The period
which follows of peace and growth and work is the period wherein the unit
having made the necessary adjustment can work with renewed vigor and
effectiveness through his group for the helping of his fellow men.

If this is so we are getting ready for bigger and grander and more important
times and effectiveness. It is often said that after each shaking the
Society goes on with renewed life to better things. It has been so in the
past; it will be so this time. This we can say for our comfort. The power of
the period of peace and growth must be proportional to the intensity of the
adjustment struggle; the effectiveness of the work of the days to come will
match the effectiveness of the adjustment achieved. We could almost be eager
to be shaken yet a little more if we could only get our eyes off of the
ugliness of the immediate foreground on to the beauty of the possibilities
on the horizon.

Surely then, we will not get disgusted or tired or self-righteous, or allow
ourselves to be shaken out of the Society either singly or in little group
fragments, thus weakening the body of the whole and creating individual bad
karma for ourselves. Better to remain where we are striving sincerely,
dispassionately and disinterestedly to understand the lessons which the
turmoil of the hour must inevitably hold for us and for our group.

The fundamental purpose back of all the varying situations and incidents in
the different Sections is the forcing of the members to think for themselves
and to realize and take up the responsibilities which are their own. Let us
therefore study the principles and the laws of right theosophical group
activity and organization, realizing ourselves as conscious participants in
the business of the whole, in order that we may wisely take advantage of the
present period and pass on to that happier endeavor which is waiting for us
on the threshold of tomorrow.

+++

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