Theos-Talk Archives (October 2009 Message tt00120)

Tell that to Leadbeater!
Cass


>
>From: "Drpsionic@aol.com" <Drpsionic@aol.com>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wed, 14 October, 2009 11:12:40 AM
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
>
>Â 
>There is nothing ritualistic about Theosophy.
>
>Chuck the Heretic
>
>www.charlescosimano .com 
>
>In a message dated 10/13/2009 10:48:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
>schuller@alpheus. org writes:
>
>Dear Preethi,
>
>K indeed had mystical experiences and claimed oneness with life, but I 
>belief those were temporary experiences. He was not enlightened, though he 
>came close. If he was enlightened and one with life, as many belief, he would 
>have incorporated Theosophy, not lashed out against it and would not have 
>pretended loss of memory, nor would he have secretely bedded the wife of his 
>manager, nor his offspring aborted. Then some of his statements regarding 
>his messiah-ship were not very humble but rather self-serving, maybe even 
>manipulative. He put a guilt-trip on Theosophists by claiming they had 
>failed him, evenwhile he had failed the Masters. Only by being selective can one 
>create an image of K as an enlightened world teacher. The alternative is 
>to be either thouroughly agnostic or explore possible Theosophical 
>explanations like those given by Geoffrey_ Hodson, Cyrill Scott and David Anrias. 
>There are some great insights to be found in his teachings, but we have to be 
>on guard against jumping to unwarranted conclusions regarding his 
>spiritual and metaphysical status. Dear Preethi, sorry for this cold shower, but I 
>do not like to see Theosophists helping with the creation of a new 
>religion, coined Krishnamurtianity, which will be thouroughly anti-esoteric, 
>anti-ritualistic and anti-gradualistic, or, in short, anti-Theosophical. 
>
>Govert
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: preethi muthiah 
>To: 
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ 
>(mailto:theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com) _ 
>Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:44 AM
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>
>Dear Morten and Friends
>
>I am wondering what does a person say when he or she merges with the One 
>Life...when asked the question, who are you?, what does he say? Does he not 
>say that he is Life...because that is what he is...he and life are not two 
>but one...he and the Master are not two, but one...so he is the master, he 
>is life, but that statement of acknowledgement would seem more a humble 
>statement rather than a messianic one...
>
>Fraternally
>
>Preethi
>
>--- On Tue, 13/10/09, Govert Schuller <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) 
>_schuller@alpheus. sch_ (mailto:schuller@alpheus. org) _> wrote:
>
>From: Govert Schuller <_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) 
>_schuller@alpheus. sch_ (mailto:schuller@alpheus. org) _>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>To: _ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ 
>(mailto:theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com) 
>Date: Tuesday, 13 October, 2009, 1:45 AM
>
>Morten, you're quite right. 
>
>K's self-perception was as a messiah, but on his own subtle and 
>contradictory terms.
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>
>From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>
>Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47 AM
>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>
>Dear Preethi and friends
>
>My views are:
>
>HPB said: 
>
>"They will not crush the Society, do what they may." 
>
>A)
>
>Preethi wrote:
>
>"Krishnaji, never adhered to that concept"..." He refused to be a messiah."
>
>M. Sufilight answers asks:
>
>I disagree.
>
>I can with all of my heart only - clearly disagree - with you on this when 
>we talk about Krishnaji also known as J. Krishnamurti.
>
>And givning J. Krishnamurti the whole blame, and letting Annie Besant go 
>scott free, will not wash, and aught not to be endorsed by any leadership in 
>TS Adyar. The truth is that Annie Besant - clearly failed - in this 
>regard, and promoted an emotional _cult with yellow shawls, purples shawls, 
>silver bagdes and ribbons, with J.K. insignias. And the TS and the theosophical 
>cause have been hampered by this for decades. Not to mention her involvment 
>with C.W. Leadbeater.
>
>T.S. Adyar aught to recognize these heavy blunders and NOT promote Annie 
>Besant as a great leader!
>
>Can you document your views?
>
>Can you show me that J. Krishnamurti ever rejected his own title as a 
>World Teacher and Messiah, and Messiah-craze as such?
>
>I have most often found to opposite to be the true about his behaviour. 
>Will you please answer this question, because it is important to a number of 
>seekers.
>
>- - - - - - -
>
>I will in opposition to TS Adyar seek to document my views in the below....
>
>Will TS Adyar document their views in a comprative study or stand 
>corrected?
>
>So far Radha Burnier have only published the following vague remarks on J. 
>Krishnamurti.
>
>And this with Radha Burnier answering questions has not been verified as 
>officially true:
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.lifeposi _ 
>(http://www.lifeposi /) _ tive.com/ Spirit/new- age-path/ theosophical- society/theosoph 
>y.asp (Anyone?)
>
>Another different one is here:
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) _ 
>google.com/ group/alt. paranormal. reincarnation/ browse_thread/ 
>thread/6900a7642 65f5d4b
>
>B)
>
>Geoffrey Hodson (d. 1983) said in an article published in 1965:
>
>"These phenomena occurred during some few successive years, the events 
>being so
>
>marked that Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the 
>Order of the
>
>Star in the East from, in effect, âTo prepare for the coming of the Lordâ 
>to âTo serve
>
>the World Teacher now that He is in our midst.â I, myself, more than once 
>heard
>
>Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the â
>Comingâ had
>
>actually occurred. Even now when he is speaking, with others I discern a 
>spiritual
>
>influence emanating from him, as if a great Being were still using him as 
>a vehicle.
>
>This, however, does not constitute a complete fulfillment of the original 
>prophecy."
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.theosoph _ 
>(http://www.theosoph /) _ ical.org/ resources/ articles/ AppreciationofCW L.pdf
>
>C)
>
>J. Krishnamurti claimed himself being the Avatar (1928):
>
>*1*
>
>"I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life 
>itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you 
>to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life 
>which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, 
>religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." 
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://jiddu- _ (http://jiddu- /) 
>krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/jiddu- krishnamurti- 
>let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php
>
>*2*
>
>"Krishnamurti wrote in 1927:
>
>"I know my destiny and my work. I know with certainty and knowledge of my 
>own, that I am blending 
>
>into the consciousness of the one Teacher and that He will completely fill 
>me." 
>
>Letter from Krishnamurti to Leadbeater February 9, 1927, quoted in 
>Lutyens, Krishnamurti: The 
>
>Years of Awakening, p. 241.
>
>*3*
>
>D)
>
>And we have Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932
>
>"I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not 
>to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it 
>undertake propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call 
>itself the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is 
>dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge 
>meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service 
>is that to mankind- what s_ervice is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do 
>one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make 
>his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti 
>himself is absolutely honest.... 
>
>In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:
>
>" So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the 
>Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has 
>nothing in common with what I say" 
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://books. _ (http://books. /) 
>google.com/ books?id= Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=RA2- PA379&lpg= RA2-PA379& dq=%22Star+ 
>Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&source= web&ots=StjngNWK 0k&sig=yBGu2frkW 
>1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#PRA2-PA379, M1
>
>- - -
>
>M. Sufilight asks:
>
>Why did J. Krishnamurti accept creating so many obstacles to the Seekers 
>after Truth - who were not Seekers after a creed? - And not to talk about 
>the - appearent - requirements of people being members of the Order of the 
>Star in the East
>
>if they wanted TS membership. (I cannot find the proper letter by Annie 
>Besant on this. Maybe some of you can help me out?) No wonder a number of 
>Seekers broke with the TS back in the old days.
>
>An Avatar - hampering - the promotion of comparative studying, cannot be 
>said to be in accordance with the wisdom teachings of all ages past and the 
>original Programe of the TS as it was given by HPB and the Masters. 
>
>And please understand that NO Universal Brotherhood can be created from 
>such a Messiah-craze activity!
>
>E)
>
>J. Krishnamurti' s speech disso_lving The Order of The Star in the East: 
>
>"Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path 
>whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or 
>to coerce people along any particular path."
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.katinkah _ 
>(http://www.katinkah /) esselink. net/kr/star. htm
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>
>An Avatar rejecting the promotion of comparative studies, cannot be said 
>to be in accordance with the wisdom teachings of all ages past.
>
>F)
>
>Here are some quite telling HPB quotes opposing the J. Krishnamurti scheme 
>and present day scheme.
>
>H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy:
>
>"Does the Spiritualist accept the verdict and act on the conclusion? 
>Verily, no. He refuses to organize." (p. 32)
>
>H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about the T.S.:
>
>"A very poor specimen, indeed, as at present, and, until carefully sifted 
>and reorganized, no better than all others. Remember, however, that human 
>nature is the same in the Theosophical Society as out of it. Its members are 
>no saints: they are at best sinners trying to do better, and liable to 
>fall back owing to personal weakness." .... " Besides which, it is in a 
>chaotic condition, and as unjustly unpopular as is no other body. What wonder, 
>then, that those members who fail to carry out its ideal should turn, after 
>leaving the Society, for sympathetic protection to our enemies, and pour all 
>their gall and bitterness into their too willing ears! Knowing that they 
>will find support, sympathy, and ready credence for every accusation, howe
>ver absurd, that it may please them to launch against the Theosophical 
>Society, they hasten to do so, and vent their wrath on the innocent 
>looking-glass, which reflected too faithfully their faces. People never forgive
>those whom they have wronged. " (p. 256)
>
>H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about our enemies!:
>
>"I do not call the enemies we have had to battle with during the first 
>nine or ten years of the Society's existence either powerful or "dangerous"; 
>but only those who have arisen against us in the last three or four years. 
>And these neither speak, write nor preach against Theosophy, but work in 
>silence and behind the backs of the foolish puppets who act as their visible 
>marionnettes. Yet, if invisible to most of the members of our Society, they 
>are well known to the true "Founders" and the protectors of our Society. 
>But they must remain for certain reasons unnamed at present. "
>
>.......
>
>"I never said I knew them. I may or may not know them, but I know of them, 
>and this is sufficient; and I defy them to do their worst. They may 
>achieve great mischief and throw confusion into our ranks, especially among the 
>faint-hearted, and those who can judge only by appearances. They will not 
>crush the Society, do what they may. Apart from these truly dangerous enemies 
>Ã "dangerous," however, only to those Theosophists who are unworthy of the 
>name, and whose place is rather outside than within the T. S.Ã the number 
>of our opponents is more than considerable. " (p. 272)
>
>H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about our enemies!:
>
>"We have to contend against (1) the hatred of the Spiritualists, American, 
>English, and French; (2) the constant opposition of the clergy of all 
>denominations; (3) especially the relentless hatred and persecution of the 
>missionaries in India; (4) this led to the famous and infamous attack on our 
>Theosophical Society by the Society for Psychical Research, an attack which 
>was stirred up by a regular conspiracy organized by the missionaries in 
>India. Lastly, we must count the defection of various prominent (?) members, 
>for reasons I have already explained, all of whom have contributed their 
>utmost to increase the prejudice against us. " (p. 274)
>
>H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy 
>
>"Our enemies profit to this day by our mistake. The most recent book 
>directed against our teachings is alleged to have been written by an Adept of 
>twenty years' standing. Now, it is a palpable lie. We know the amanuensis and 
>his inspirers (as he is himself too ignorant to have written anything of 
>the sort). These "inspirers" are living persons, revengeful and unscrupulous 
>in proportion to their intellectual powers; and these bogus Adepts are not 
>one, but several. The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break 
>the theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge 
>Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the 
>"Adept" and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists 
>against Theosophy and its teachings." (...p. 302)
>
>H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy 
>
>"Many Branches of the Society have been formed in various parts of the 
>world, and new ones are constantly being organized. Each branch frames its own 
>bye-laws and manages its own local business without interference from 
>Head-quarters; provided only that the fundamental rules of the Society are not 
>violated. " (...p. 320)
>
>G)
>
>Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti' s views:
>
>"He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of 
>the Theosophical Society for
>
>Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able to 
>read a Theosophical book in His life -
>
>could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard 
>many Theosophical lectures, none _ of
>
>them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth."
>
>(" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 )
>
>H)
>
>J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict
>
>Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti 
>conflict:
>
>"Revelation or Realization: The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der 
>Leeuw, LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers Maatschappij, 
>1930) 
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.alpheus. _ 
>(http://www.alpheus. /) org/html/ source_materials /krishnamurti/ leeuw.html
>
>*** 
>
>Conclusion:
>
>The fact that he allowed himself to be called Maitreya - World Teacher and 
>Messiah for at least 4 years if not for 18 years or more without really 
>counter-acting it - aught to tell you something. And the fact that Annie 
>Besant as the leader of TS and even the Esoteric Section allowed it, aught also 
>to tell you something. - Now why this persistent clinging to a doctrine at 
>TS Adyar, which seeks to picture Annie besant as a great theosophical 
>leader, when we all KNOW it is not in accordance with the Truth???
>
>Annie Besants involvement in the whole affair aught to be taken into 
>account on the TS Adyar website.*
>
>In the period fram 1909-1929 Annie Besant was a staunch promoter of 
>something else than theosophical teachings, namely a Messiah-craze cult, with 
>so-called theosophists wearing a Yellow Shawl, Purple Shawl with - the J.K. 
>insignia, - and silver badges on a purple ribbon, and thereby effectively 
>destroying any kind of comparative studying.
>
>The motto of the Theosophical Society is still, I do hope: 
>
>THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH.
>
>***
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>
>From: preethi muthiah 
>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>
>Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 11:33 AM
>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>
>Dear Morten and friends,
>
>My view is that the Messiah craze was and is something that belongs to 
>those who 'follow" the teachers. The teachers themselves, whether it was the 
>Masters of the Wisdom or HPB or Krishnaji, never adhered to that concept. 
>Which is why the Masters say in their Letters to APS that we ought to be 
>faithful to the Idea rather than to have merely a personal feeling for Them. 
>That is essentially what JK also taught all his life. He refused to be a 
>messiah.
>
>I think it is important for us to realize that with the advent of the 
>Aquarian Age we are expected to learn to think for ourselves, to develop our 
>own inner intelligence. The Buddha of the previous Age, Gautama Buddha, said 
>the same thing when telling us to be a lamp unto ourselves. This stress or 
>emphasis on developing our own intuitive mind is seen throughout the 
>teachings of all teachers who came after the Buddha.
>
>Fraternally
>
>Preethi
>
>--- On Sat, 10/10/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. 
>dk> wrote:
>
>From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
>
>Date: Saturday, 10 October, 2009, 1:40 PM
>
>Dear Preethi and friends
>
>My views are:
>
>Yes, they often expressed the same views in the main although there were 
>certain vital differences - i.e. if we take HPB, CWL, Besant and JK. - And 
>as always we "cull the good we find in each".
>
>Yet when we deal with the Messiah-craze I cannot find any middle-ground. 
>
>Either you understand that is was not theosophical or you do not! TS Adyar 
>has since the adwent of the J. Krishnamurti cult accepted and even 
>maintained this messiah-Craze - in clear visible opposition - to the original 
>programe and theosophical teachings given by H. P. Blavatsky and the Masters. A 
>programe was given by the TS founders in 1875 fighting ANY dogma, and a 
>programe seeking to create a synthesis of the core teachings of all world 
>religions, and seeking to END the strife between them, and not promoting this 
>strife. TS Adyars leadership have since 1908 or 1909 not clearly distanced 
>themselves from this Messiah-craze and sought to end the strife between 
>fractions and instead promoted a synthesis teaching. It seems clear when 
>reading their present day TS Adyar website. 
>
>The theosophical teachings cannot be promoted through a muddle 
>Messiah-craze doctrine. We aught to recognized the truth when it is proven to us. Do 
>you not agree?
>
>In 1887 HPB further said in Le Lotus:
>
>"In carnalizing the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing the 
>dogma of the Word made flesh, the Latin Church sets _ up a doctrine 
>diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu Esotericism and the Greek 
>Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss between the East and the 
>West, as long as neither of these dogmas yields. Almost 2,000 years of 
>bloody persecution against Heretics and Infidels by the Church looms before the 
>Oriental nations to prevent them from renouncing their philosophic 
>doctrines in favor of that which degrades the Christos principle."
>
>.......
>
>"by localizing and isolating this great Principle, and denying it to any 
>other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the Nazar), carnalize the Christos of 
>the Gnostics; that alone prevents them having any point in common with the 
>disciples of the Archaic Wisdom."
>
>.......
>
>"true Theosophists will never accept either a Christ made Flesh".
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.katinkah _ 
>(http://www.katinkah /) _ esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v8/y1887_ 048.htm
>
>- - - - - - -
>
>The main point is:
>
>Now we just need to exchange the words "Latin Church" or "Christian" from 
>the above quotes with the "TS Adyar Krishnamurti Church" and "Jesus of 
>Nazareth" with "J. Krishnamurti" - and - all begin to wear a Yellow Shawl, 
>Purple Shawl with - the J.K. insignia, - and silver badges on a purple ribbon - 
>as they did in Annie Besants "supreme" reign - and we are all ready to 
>follow the Messiah-craze promoted and maintained in TS-Adyar! ( Se also Mary 
>Lutyens - 1. Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening, p.38)
>
>TS Adyar aught to delete or at least change some of the words on Annie 
>Besant at its present website:
>
>The following from the TS Adyar webiste can hardly be said to be in 
>accordance with the true theosophical spirit and the original theosophical 
>programe:
>
>"She gave a great lead in making Theosophy practical, urging members to 
>theosophize the various fields: religious, social, economic, political. " ( _ 
>(http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.ts- _ (http://www.ts- /) 
>adyar.org/ history.html )
>
>I hold the following to be a more true view:
>
>"She gave a lead, [though theosophically speaking not without some vital 
>faults], in making Theosophy practical, urging members to theosophize the 
>various fields: religious, social, economic, political. [Despite that her 
>promotion af a World Teacher and Messiah named J. Krishnamurti was in clear 
>opposition to the theosophical teachings original programe, she succeeded in 
>doing a lot of good work to help and relieve suffering around the world. 
>And her actitivies, books a writings and letters on theosophical subjects are 
>evidences on this.]"
>
>THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH.
>
>Do you understand me?
>
>- - - - - - -
>
>What is unclear it me and others are, where the limits the Theosophical 
>Society operates within really are. And TS as such have through the time been 
>tested in this regard, and continues to be tested. This is the law of life.
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>
>From: preethi muthiah 
>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>
>Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 9:23 AM
>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>
>Perhaps if one went beyond the words these teachers used, one would 
>realize that they meant the same thing but because the teachings were given at 
>different periods of time, the words had to suit the receiving populations 
>readiness.
>
>Individualization and self-reliance in matters spiritual are emphasized by 
>all the teachers mentioned in this discussion.. .and yet that is the one 
>thing the current administration of the TS would stop us from growing into 
>and realizing... the immensity of the human potential cannot be curtailed 
>and any attempts to do so are futile...there will always be some one person 
>who will find the courage to resist an attempt to curtail the speaking of 
>the truth...whether that person was HPB or JK or Ramana Maharshi...
>
>If the TS of today seeks to fulfill its purpose of existence, it must be a 
>forum where such expression can_ find expression.. .unfortunately, 
>intolerance is practised at all levels...
>
>Fraternally
>
>Preethi
>
>--- On Sat, 10/10/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. 
>dk> wrote:
>
>From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
>
>Date: Saturday, 10 October, 2009, 11:51 AM
>
>Dear John
>
>My views are:
>
>Maybe this posting by you on the topic of "atoms" in response to my talk 
>about the Krishnamurti cult and pseudo-Messiahs from this thread will show 
>you it all more clearly:
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) _ 
>yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 52952
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>
>From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>
>Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:08 AM
>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>
>Dear John
>
>I can use both links.
>
>The links are e-mails - in this thread - created by me on the J. 
>krishnamurti issue, and, are both of them useful in the sense, that they describe my 
>views on the crisis in TS Adyar. They have not necessarily anything to do 
>with you or any particular person at this forum. I was simply answering 
>Preethi's e-mail in this thread. Okay?
>
>I wil repeat MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS:
>
>"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, 
>and
>
>sees its doom."
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.katinkah _ 
>(http://www.katinkah /) _ esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_ 027.htm
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.blavatsk _ 
>(http://www.blavatsk /) y.net/blavatsky/ arts/ModernApost lesAndPseudoMess iahs.htm
>
>The AIM of the theosophical teachings are to create a universal 
>brotherhood, and thereby of course seek to do as HPB puts it: 
>
>"The chief aim of the Founder. of the Eclectic Theosophical School was one 
>of the three objects of its modern successor, the Theosophical Society, 
>namely, to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system 
>of ethics, based on eternal verities. " (The Key to Thesophy, 2. ed. , p. 
>2-3)
>
>M. Sufilight asks:
>
>Now how that can come about by using J. Krishnamurti' s teachings as the 
>main ones I cannot see. And how can one reconcile anything by promoting a 
>Messiah-craze (through Annie Besant and Leadbeater)? And by continously 
>maintaining a Messiah-craze by accepting Annie Besant version herof until this 
>day?
>
>And TS Adyar as always remain silent to these questions. These things are 
>appearntly no allowed to be told the TRUTH about.
>
>M. Sufilight
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>
>From: Augoeides-222@ c_omcast.net 
>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>
>Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 12:41 AM
>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process?
>
>Morten, 
>
>The first link you provided # 52950 as not a message I made, it was some 
>one else, but it wasn't me. Just to clarify a little bit of confusion. 
>
>John 
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>
>From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> 
>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
>
>Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 9:40:52 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
>
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an 
>Ongoing Process? 
>
>Dear Preethi and friends 
>
>My views are: 
>
>Maybe because nobidy really have answered or replied to my views about the 
>Krishanmurti cults persistent existence within TS Adyar, which according 
>to my views are in opposition to the original programe given by H. P. 
>Blavatsky and other theosophists. 
>
>I state a view on that in this thread 
>
>Here: 
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) _ 
>yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 52950 (1) 
>
>And here: 
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /) 
>yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 52962 (2) 
>
>Instead I got an answer from John, who appearently disklied my two posts, 
>and who (in a to me somewhat unclear manner) started to ask questions about 
>H. P. Blavatsky's teachings, and to a certain extend sought to create 
>doubt about her teachings validity. Well, that is what I so far have perceived 
>his e-mails. Yet we are Seekers after Truth, so his honest approach aught 
>to be listened to and compared with H. P. Blavatsky's teachings, so it might 
>benefit various Seekers me and John included. That is unless someone knows 
>the picture on a higher level are will step in and teach about where we go 
>from here - in the land of Parabrahm and theosophical teachings. 
>
>- - - 
>
>Bottom line as far as I am concerned is: Either you accept the J. 
>Krishnamurti cult (and there by Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeaters promotions) or 
>you support H. P. Blavatsky and the Masters teachings. there is no middle 
>ground here. And TS Adyar aught to be made aware of it. Yet any theosophical 
>Seeker should of course question the original programes validity. 
>
>yet H. P. Blavatsky and her friends stated at the beggining of the 
>Theosophical Society's existence the following in thefirst preamble to the 
>formation of the organisation The Theosophical Society, that : 
>
>"Preamble of the T.S. 
>
>Dated October 30, 1875; reprinted in The Theosophical Forum, September 
>1947, pp. 515-18 
>
>The title of the Theosophical Society explains the objects and desires of 
>its founders: they seek "to obtain knowledge of the nature and attributes 
>of the Supreme Power and of the higher spirits by the aid of physical 
>processes." In other words, they hope, that by going deeper than modern science 
>has hitherto done, into the esoteric philosophies of ancient times, they may 
>be enabled to obtain, for themselves and other investigators, proof of the 
>existence of an "Unseen Universe," the nature of its inhabitants, if such 
>there be, and the laws which govern them and their relations with mankind. 
>
>What_ever may be the private opinions of its members, the society has no 
>dogmas to enforce, no creed to disseminate. It is formed neither as a 
>Spiritualistic schism, nor to serve as the foe or friend of any sectarian or 
>philosophic body. Its only axiom is the omnipotence of truth, its only creed a 
>profession of unqualified devotion to its discovery and propagation. In 
>considering the qualifications of applicants for membership, it knows neither 
>race, sex, color, country nor creed." 
>
>ETC., ETC. 
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.theosoci _ 
>(http://www.theosoci /) _ ety.org/pasadena /gfkforum/ ourdir.htm# Preamble% 20of%20the% 
>20T.S. 
>
>And H. P. Blavatsky said in her book the Key to Theosophy, 2. ed, 1890: 
>
>"The Theosophical Society was organized for the purpose of promulgating 
>the Theosophical doctrines, and for the promotion of the Theosophic life." ( 
>p. 16). 
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://www.phx- _ (http://www.phx- /) 
>ult-lodge. org/aKEY. htm 
>
>While the Krishnamurti camp or cult agree upon another programe: 
>
>It was required that each member of the Theosophical Society agreed upon 
>being a member of The Order of the Star in the East (the cult promoting J. 
>Krishnamurti as a World Teacher and Messiah of the Age). Else the member 
>would be expelled. 
>
>Yet, we can nealy all of us agree upon, that the following given by H. P. 
>Blavatsky in the Theosophist as its Editor, or one named Spectator, by HPB 
>being allowed his/her article to be printed in the Theosophist: 
>
>MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS 
>
>"Wherever Theosophy spreads, there it is impossible for the deluded to 
>mislead, or the deluded to follow. It opens a new path, a forgotten philosophy 
>which has lived through the ages, a knowledge of the psychic nature of 
>man, which reveals alike the true status of the Catholic saint, and the 
>spiritualistic medium the Church condemns. IT GATHER REFORMERS TOGETHER, THROWS 
>LIGHT ON THEIR WAY, AND TEACHES THEM HOW TO WORK TOWARDS A DESIRABLE END 
>WITH MOST EFFECT, BUT FORBIDS ANY TO ASSUME A CROWN OR SECPTRE, and no less 
>delivers from a futile crown of thorns. Mesmerisms and astral influences fall 
>back, and the sky grows clear enough for higher light. It hushes the âLo 
>here! and lo there!â and declares the Christ, like the kingdom of heaven, to 
>be within. It guards and applies every aspiration and capacity to serve 
>humanity in any man and shows him how. It overthrows the giddy pedestal, and 
>safely cares for the human being on solid ground. Hence, in
>
>this way, and in all other ways, it is the truest deliverer and saviour of 
>our time. 
>
>To enumerate the various âMessiahsâ and their beliefs and works would 
>fill volumes. It is needless. When claims conflict, all, on the face of it, 
>cannot be true. Some have taught less error than others. It is almost the 
>only distinction. And some have had fine powers imperilled and paralysed by 
>leadings they did not understand. 
>
>Of one thing, rationally-minded people, apart from Theosophists, may be 
>sure. And that is, service for humanity is its all-sufficient reward; and 
>that empty jars are the most resonant of sound. To know a very little of the 
>philosophy of life, of manâs power to redeem wrongs and to teach others, to 
>perceive how to thread the tangled maze of existence on this globe, and to 
>accomplish aught of lasting and spiritual benefit, is to annihilate all 
>desire or thought of posing as a heaven-sent saviour of the people. For a very 
>little self-knowledge is a leveller indeed, and more democratic than the 
>most ultra-radical can desire. The best practical reformers of the outside 
>abuses we have known, such as slavery, deprivation of the rights of woman, 
>legal tyrannies, oppressions of the poor, have NEVER dreamed of posing as 
>Messiahs. Honor, worthless as it is, followed them unsought, for a tree is 
>known by its fruits, and to this day âtheir works do follow
>
>them." 
>
>....... 
>
>"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, 
>and sees its doom." 
>
>(signed SPECTATOR). 
>
>_______ 
>
>A few comments: 
>
>As long as Ts Adyar's halls speak a loud SILENCE on this and as long as TS 
>Adyar are quite unwilling to CLEARLY distance it self from the 
>Krishnamurti cult and those who un the past unjustly promoted it - As well as those 
>who unjustly promote it know, I will have to reject that they can have any 
>claim on following the original programe as it was given in 1875 by HPB and 
>others - Masters included, and I will have to reject that they follow a 
>program qhich can at all be called healthy unless you will call the 
>theosophical teachings of all ages a Messiah cult. - And because of that they do not 
>deseve to wear the name The Theosophical Society on the front of their 
>Crowns and on their secptres. - These are my views and if I am wrong then 
>please, please let me know. 
>
>So a tree is known on its fruits, is it not? 
>
>And we aught to recognize the truth when it is proven to us, allright? 
>
>So are you and others saying, that TS Adyar with its near total acceptance 
>of Annie Besant's teachings and from this also near total acceptance of 
>CWL's and J. Krishnamurti' s teachings - are showing such fruits and 
>activities as the above article mentions??? 
>
>What I am saying is, that when they can accept the J. Krishnamurti cult 
>and its promoters, why do they not also endorse other similar present day 
>Messiah cults on the globe? 
>
>The continous - No Answer - attitude in TS Adyar circles to this issue 
>reveals to me, that they are not honest Seekers, but merely believers, 
>followers and especially promoters of BELIEF and not promoters of knowledge and 
>visdom. And this the theosophical teachings clealry rejects! 
>
>M. Sufilight 
>
>Messages in this topic (42) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic 
>
>Messages 
>
>MARKETPLACE
>
>Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their families, 
>for the world and for each other 
>
>Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) 
>
>Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest _| Switch 
>format to Traditional 
>
>Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity
>
>a.. 4New Members
>
>Visit Your Group 
>
>Ads on Yahoo!
>
>Learn more now.
>
>Reach customers
>
>searching for you.
>
>Group Charity
>
>Stop Cyberbullying
>
>Keep your kids
>
>safe from bullying
>
>Weight Management Group
>
>on Yahoo! Groups
>
>Join the challenge
>
>and lose weight.
>
>. 
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>Try the new Yahoo! India Homepage. Click here. _ 
>(http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) _http://in.yahoo. http://in. _ (http://in.yahoo. com/trynew) _
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>_ (http://www.charlesc osimano.com/) 
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


      __________________________________________________________________________________
Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]