Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Oct 13, 2009 09:13 AM
by Govert Schuller
Dear Morten,
You bring up some legitimate points.
Not responding here on behalf of Adyar, which I think nobody can or should try to do, I will give you my own understanding of the three points you raised.
1. K's statements in 1929 were the logical result of his radical independent stand regarding any previous teaching or teacher. The problem was that his stand was the position of someone stuck in the Arhat initiation, where the Masters withdraw their support and you have to go through some tests on your own. K apparently liked that spot and absolutized it. He didn't get through the tests succesfully and made of this failure a virtue.
2. The statements by Besant made in the summer of 1925 in Ommen were not accepted by K, nor by CWL. Besant got those ideas from George Arundale who claimed to have been in contact with the Masters. K and CWL were too respectful of Besant to voice a more robust protest. They probably should have, because both thought the so-called Huizen-manifestations were seriously undermining the 'Coming.' In the end it did not, nor did the death of K's brother Nityananda, and on December 28, 1925 K was overshadowed for the first time, something which happened on and off for maybe 2 years.
3. K's and AB's early 1927 statements about the 'Coming' were imo more or less accurate as the project was still in success mode. It was in about mid-1927 that K started indentifying so exclusively with his 'Beloved' at the expense of anything else, that the troubles started. From here on he started denigrating initiations, the Masters, Theosophy and started consolodating his radical independence, which lead, inevitably, to the dissolution of the OSE and his resignation of the TS.
The alternative 'Adyar' interpretation of the story is that K was succesfully fulfilling the 'Coming,' but that some Theosophists were not ready, or not willing, to follow him in his supreme consciousness and radical statements. And it was this resistance which led to the 1929 break, which was later mended.
Another alternative is to see it all as a farce from the beginning with AB and CWL as the main culprits for foisting on the TS this messiah-craze. And that looks like your position, Morten.
As the TS is committed to freedom of belief and freedom of thought, none of these positions can ever become official. And even not Pasadena nor the ULT will have any grounds to take an official position on these questions, though individual members are of course completely free to do so. There are certain tendencies within the different organizations, but those are just that: tendencies, which can change over time. You do have a legitimate complaint about the extent of the mixing of TS-ES-OSE -LCC-Masonry policies and leadership in the 1911-1929 period as I have some worries about present day TS-ES-KFI conflation since 1980. The best we can do maybe is to demand that these different organizations stay free and clear of each other, tough also friendly and tolerant towards each other.
Therefore your clamouring for an offical Adyar position is based on a misunderstanding of this freedom. You can not construe Adyar's silence as agreement with your position. Meanwhile there are plenty of elaborate articles and books on the K-question by members of Adyar, but there is no consensus, only a tendency. Adyar is silent, as should be, but plenty of members are vocal. I hope you'll understand and leave Adyar alone and engage specific members.
Best
Govert
----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear Preethi
My views are:
I through my own knowledge and also reading about the theosophical teachings I would say, that such a person would tende to say, "I am one with the One Life", or, "I have merged with the One Life". That will of course be natural.
Whereas if a person is an Avatar of the Age or the Maitreya - World Teacher, one might hear: "I am beyond thoughts", "I am beyond time and space", and also "I am at the same time omnipresent (i.e. present at all times past, present, and future), omniscient, and omnipotent". Or even as J. Krishnamurti said: "I am No-Body".
1.
The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this:
"As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher -- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths.
You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying."
....
"So why have an organization? "
....
" I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying."
(From "Truth is a Pathless Land by J. Krishnamurti" - http://www.tphta. ws/TPH_TIPL. HTM)
M. Sufilight says:
I have difficulties in agreeing on that this was theosophical teaching. In fact I disagree with it in the sense, that it IS IMOPRTANT whether J. Krishnamurti himself says he is the World-Teacher or not. So to downplay this and thereby confuse the Seekers after Truth is not a healthy teaching; expecially when he later said that he was the One Life. - J. Krishnamurti did not teach, that the Divine is within you, instead we heard these twisted words, which does not lead in the direction given of the theosophical teachings; the teachings given by HPB, other theosophists, and even the Masters.
2.
- - - - - - -
I will in the below repeat a part of what I wrote May 28th, 2008 here at Theos-Talk
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-l/message/2810
- - - - - - -
J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed false teachings:
The fact that J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed the following tells me, that he was not caring about the Theosophical Society as it was given by H. P. Blavatsky.
"What happened to the Theosophical Society, through the years, under the guidance of Mrs. Besant, became abundantly clear during a âStarâ Congress held at Ommen, Holland, in 1925.
That this event should have taken place in the year that was the fiftieth anniversary of the founding of the Theosophical Movement, and on August 11, the anniversary of H.P.B.âs birth, only throws into greater relief the almost immeasurable departure from the original spirit of the Movement, to which Mrs. Besant had led her faithful followers. The purpose of the Congress was to further the âKrishnamurtiâ cult, for this young Hindu had been burdened by Mrs. Besant with the task of âsaving the world.â In her opening address, which teems with supernaturalism and breathless references to personages like âthe Nameless Oneâ and âLords of the Fire,â she told her listeners:
And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya
and His great Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.
His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship,
Who were the âArhatsâ?
The first two [Mrs. Besant continued), my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C. Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale,
Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini Arundale,
I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our Krishnaji was one, but he is to be the vehicle of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King.
Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with Himself as the thirteenth. âYe call me Master and Lord, and ye do well, for so I am.â .
Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one who was really announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then the world has grown a good deal, and it is possible that while the few may be repelled, many thousands will be attracted to the Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, since He has said it, it is done. . . "
( http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/theosophica%20lmovement.htm )
M. Sufilight comments:
Honestly I have never seen a more medicore bunch of Apostles! :-)
Now J. Krishnamurti allowed these words to be accepted to at least 4 years before he did something to at least counter them. I guess J. Krishnamurti was not a World Teacher yet. And not even capeable of protesting to such a scheme. Later J. Krishnamurti was against G. Arundales leadership of the TS, and stayed very much away from the TS almost until Radha Burnier came into the drivers seat. A World Teacher staying away from the TS, which was given by the Masters. And World Teacher who almost never talked about the Master Morya and Koot Hoomi. And when he did it was just to bash their value and to promote himself!
It is your choice if you agree with those at TS Adyar who find it important to call Annie Besant a great spiritual leader.
3.
a)
Krishnamurti wrote in 1927:
âI know my destiny and my work. I know with certainty and knowledge of my own, that I am blending into the consciousness of the one Teacher and that He will completely fill me.â
Letter from Krishnamurti to Leadbeater February 9, 1927, quoted in Lutyens, Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening, p. 241.
b)
âI never said: I am the World Teacher; but now that I feel I am one with my Beloved, I say it.â
Talk by Krishnamurti, August 2, 1927, quoted in Lutyens, p. 250.
c)
Annie Besant declared in 1927:
âThe Divine Spirit has descended once more on a man, Krishnamurti, one who in his life is literally perfect, as those who know him can testify... . The World Teacher is here.
âAnnie Besant, âThe Way of Sorrows and the Way of Happiness: The New Messageâ The Theosophist 48/7 (April 1927), p. 6d.
- - -
M. Sufilight says:
Now it is about time that TS Adyar faced the facts about the matter, instead of declining to be Seekers after Truth.
Any comments form members at TS Adyar? Anyone at all?
Silence is also an answer!
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear Morten and Friends
I am wondering what does a person say when he or she merges with the One Life...when asked the question, who are you?, what does he say? Does he not say that he is Life...because that is what he is...he and life are not two but one...he and the Master are not two, but one...so he is the master, he is life, but that statement of acknowledgement would seem more a humble statement rather than a messianic one...
Fraternally
Preethi
--- On Tue, 13/10/09, Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus.org> wrote:
From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus.org>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 13 October, 2009, 1:45 AM
Morten, you're quite right.
K's self-perception was as a messiah, but on his own subtle and contradictory terms.
----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear Preethi and friends
My views are:
HPB said:
"They will not crush the Society, do what they may."
A)
Preethi wrote:
"Krishnaji, never adhered to that concept"..." He refused to be a messiah."
M. Sufilight answers asks:
I disagree.
I can with all of my heart only - clearly disagree - with you on this when we talk about Krishnaji also known as J. Krishnamurti.
And givning J. Krishnamurti the whole blame, and letting Annie Besant go scott free, will not wash, and aught not to be endorsed by any leadership in TS Adyar. The truth is that Annie Besant - clearly failed - in this regard, and promoted an emotional cult with yellow shawls, purples shawls, silver bagdes and ribbons, with J.K. insignias. And the TS and the theosophical cause have been hampered by this for decades. Not to mention her involvment with C.W. Leadbeater.
T.S. Adyar aught to recognize these heavy blunders and NOT promote Annie Besant as a great leader!
Can you document your views?
Can you show me that J. Krishnamurti ever rejected his own title as a World Teacher and Messiah, and Messiah-craze as such?
I have most often found to opposite to be the true about his behaviour. Will you please answer this question, because it is important to a number of seekers.
- - - - - - -
I will in opposition to TS Adyar seek to document my views in the below....
Will TS Adyar document their views in a comprative study or stand corrected?
So far Radha Burnier have only published the following vague remarks on J. Krishnamurti.
And this with Radha Burnier answering questions has not been verified as officially true:
http://www.lifeposi tive.com/ Spirit/new- age-path/ theosophical- society/theosoph y.asp (Anyone?)
Another different one is here:
http://groups. google.com/ group/alt. paranormal. reincarnation/ browse_thread/ thread/6900a7642 65f5d4b
B)
Geoffrey Hodson (d. 1983) said in an article published in 1965:
"These phenomena occurred during some few successive years, the events being so
marked that Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order of the
Star in the East from, in effect, âTo prepare for the coming of the Lordâ to âTo serve
the World Teacher now that He is in our midst.â I, myself, more than once heard
Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the âComingâ had
actually occurred. Even now when he is speaking, with others I discern a spiritual
influence emanating from him, as if a great Being were still using him as a vehicle.
This, however, does not constitute a complete fulfillment of the original prophecy."
http://www.theosoph ical.org/ resources/ articles/ AppreciationofCW L.pdf
C)
J. Krishnamurti claimed himself being the Avatar (1928):
*1*
"I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth."
http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/jiddu- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php
*2*
"Krishnamurti wrote in 1927:
"I know my destiny and my work. I know with certainty and knowledge of my own, that I am blending
into the consciousness of the one Teacher and that He will completely fill me."
Letter from Krishnamurti to Leadbeater February 9, 1927, quoted in Lutyens, Krishnamurti: The
Years of Awakening, p. 241.
*3*
D)
And we have Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932
"I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest....
In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:
" So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing in common with what I say"
http://books. google.com/ books?id= Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=RA2- PA379&lpg= RA2-PA379& dq=%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&source= web&ots=StjngNWK 0k&sig=yBGu2frkW 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#PRA2-PA379, M1
- - -
M. Sufilight asks:
Why did J. Krishnamurti accept creating so many obstacles to the Seekers after Truth - who were not Seekers after a creed? - And not to talk about the - appearent - requirements of people being members of the Order of the Star in the East
if they wanted TS membership. (I cannot find the proper letter by Annie Besant on this. Maybe some of you can help me out?) No wonder a number of Seekers broke with the TS back in the old days.
An Avatar - hampering - the promotion of comparative studying, cannot be said to be in accordance with the wisdom teachings of all ages past and the original Programe of the TS as it was given by HPB and the Masters.
And please understand that NO Universal Brotherhood can be created from such a Messiah-craze activity!
E)
J. Krishnamurti' s speech dissolving The Order of The Star in the East:
"Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path."
http://www.katinkah esselink. net/kr/star. htm
M. Sufilight says:
An Avatar rejecting the promotion of comparative studies, cannot be said to be in accordance with the wisdom teachings of all ages past.
F)
Here are some quite telling HPB quotes opposing the J. Krishnamurti scheme and present day scheme.
H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy:
"Does the Spiritualist accept the verdict and act on the conclusion? Verily, no. He refuses to organize." (p. 32)
H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about the T.S.:
"A very poor specimen, indeed, as at present, and, until carefully sifted and reorganized, no better than all others. Remember, however, that human nature is the same in the Theosophical Society as out of it. Its members are no saints: they are at best sinners trying to do better, and liable to fall back owing to personal weakness." .... " Besides which, it is in a chaotic condition, and as unjustly unpopular as is no other body. What wonder, then, that those members who fail to carry out its ideal should turn, after leaving the Society, for sympathetic protection to our enemies, and pour all their gall and bitterness into their too willing ears! Knowing that they will find support, sympathy, and ready credence for every accusation, however absurd, that it may please them to launch against the Theosophical Society, they hasten to do so, and vent their wrath on the innocent looking-glass, which reflected too faithfully their faces. People never forgive
those whom they have wronged. " (p. 256)
H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about our enemies!:
"I do not call the enemies we have had to battle with during the first nine or ten years of the Society's existence either powerful or "dangerous"; but only those who have arisen against us in the last three or four years. And these neither speak, write nor preach against Theosophy, but work in silence and behind the backs of the foolish puppets who act as their visible marionnettes. Yet, if invisible to most of the members of our Society, they are well known to the true "Founders" and the protectors of our Society. But they must remain for certain reasons unnamed at present. "
.......
"I never said I knew them. I may or may not know them, but I know of them, and this is sufficient; and I defy them to do their worst. They may achieve great mischief and throw confusion into our ranks, especially among the faint-hearted, and those who can judge only by appearances. They will not crush the Society, do what they may. Apart from these truly dangerous enemies à "dangerous," however, only to those Theosophists who are unworthy of the name, and whose place is rather outside than within the T. S.à the number of our opponents is more than considerable. " (p. 272)
H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about our enemies!:
"We have to contend against (1) the hatred of the Spiritualists, American, English, and French; (2) the constant opposition of the clergy of all denominations; (3) especially the relentless hatred and persecution of the missionaries in India; (4) this led to the famous and infamous attack on our Theosophical Society by the Society for Psychical Research, an attack which was stirred up by a regular conspiracy organized by the missionaries in India. Lastly, we must count the defection of various prominent (?) members, for reasons I have already explained, all of whom have contributed their utmost to increase the prejudice against us. " (p. 274)
H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy
"Our enemies profit to this day by our mistake. The most recent book directed against our teachings is alleged to have been written by an Adept of twenty years' standing. Now, it is a palpable lie. We know the amanuensis and his inspirers (as he is himself too ignorant to have written anything of the sort). These "inspirers" are living persons, revengeful and unscrupulous in proportion to their intellectual powers; and these bogus Adepts are not one, but several. The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept" and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against Theosophy and its teachings." (...p. 302)
H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy
"Many Branches of the Society have been formed in various parts of the world, and new ones are constantly being organized. Each branch frames its own bye-laws and manages its own local business without interference from Head-quarters; provided only that the fundamental rules of the Society are not violated. " (...p. 320)
G)
Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti' s views:
"He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of the Theosophical Society for
Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able to read a Theosophical book in His life -
could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard many Theosophical lectures, none of
them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth."
(" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 )
H)
J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict
Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict:
"Revelation or Realization: The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der Leeuw, LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers Maatschappij, 1930)
http://www.alpheus. org/html/ source_materials /krishnamurti/ leeuw.html
***
Conclusion:
The fact that he allowed himself to be called Maitreya - World Teacher and Messiah for at least 4 years if not for 18 years or more without really counter-acting it - aught to tell you something. And the fact that Annie Besant as the leader of TS and even the Esoteric Section allowed it, aught also to tell you something. - Now why this persistent clinging to a doctrine at TS Adyar, which seeks to picture Annie besant as a great theosophical leader, when we all KNOW it is not in accordance with the Truth???
Annie Besants involvement in the whole affair aught to be taken into account on the TS Adyar website.*
In the period fram 1909-1929 Annie Besant was a staunch promoter of something else than theosophical teachings, namely a Messiah-craze cult, with so-called theosophists wearing a Yellow Shawl, Purple Shawl with - the J.K. insignia, - and silver badges on a purple ribbon, and thereby effectively destroying any kind of comparative studying.
The motto of the Theosophical Society is still, I do hope:
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH.
***
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear Morten and friends,
My view is that the Messiah craze was and is something that belongs to those who 'follow" the teachers. The teachers themselves, whether it was the Masters of the Wisdom or HPB or Krishnaji, never adhered to that concept. Which is why the Masters say in their Letters to APS that we ought to be faithful to the Idea rather than to have merely a personal feeling for Them. That is essentially what JK also taught all his life. He refused to be a messiah.
I think it is important for us to realize that with the advent of the Aquarian Age we are expected to learn to think for ourselves, to develop our own inner intelligence. The Buddha of the previous Age, Gautama Buddha, said the same thing when telling us to be a lamp unto ourselves. This stress or emphasis on developing our own intuitive mind is seen throughout the teachings of all teachers who came after the Buddha.
Fraternally
Preethi
--- On Sat, 10/10/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, 10 October, 2009, 1:40 PM
Dear Preethi and friends
My views are:
Yes, they often expressed the same views in the main although there were certain vital differences - i.e. if we take HPB, CWL, Besant and JK. - And as always we "cull the good we find in each".
Yet when we deal with the Messiah-craze I cannot find any middle-ground.
Either you understand that is was not theosophical or you do not! TS Adyar has since the adwent of the J. Krishnamurti cult accepted and even maintained this messiah-Craze - in clear visible opposition - to the original programe and theosophical teachings given by H. P. Blavatsky and the Masters. A programe was given by the TS founders in 1875 fighting ANY dogma, and a programe seeking to create a synthesis of the core teachings of all world religions, and seeking to END the strife between them, and not promoting this strife. TS Adyars leadership have since 1908 or 1909 not clearly distanced themselves from this Messiah-craze and sought to end the strife between fractions and instead promoted a synthesis teaching. It seems clear when reading their present day TS Adyar website.
The theosophical teachings cannot be promoted through a muddle Messiah-craze doctrine. We aught to recognized the truth when it is proven to us. Do you not agree?
In 1887 HPB further said in Le Lotus:
"In carnalizing the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing the dogma of the Word made flesh, the Latin Church sets up a doctrine diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu Esotericism and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against Heretics and Infidels by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of that which degrades the Christos principle."
.......
"by localizing and isolating this great Principle, and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the Nazar), carnalize the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic Wisdom."
.......
"true Theosophists will never accept either a Christ made Flesh".
http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v8/y1887_ 048.htm
- - - - - - -
The main point is:
Now we just need to exchange the words "Latin Church" or "Christian" from the above quotes with the "TS Adyar Krishnamurti Church" and "Jesus of Nazareth" with "J. Krishnamurti" - and - all begin to wear a Yellow Shawl, Purple Shawl with - the J.K. insignia, - and silver badges on a purple ribbon - as they did in Annie Besants "supreme" reign - and we are all ready to follow the Messiah-craze promoted and maintained in TS-Adyar! ( Se also Mary Lutyens - 1. Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening, p.38)
TS Adyar aught to delete or at least change some of the words on Annie Besant at its present website:
The following from the TS Adyar webiste can hardly be said to be in accordance with the true theosophical spirit and the original theosophical programe:
"She gave a great lead in making Theosophy practical, urging members to theosophize the various fields: religious, social, economic, political. " ( http://www.ts- adyar.org/ history.html )
I hold the following to be a more true view:
"She gave a lead, [though theosophically speaking not without some vital faults], in making Theosophy practical, urging members to theosophize the various fields: religious, social, economic, political. [Despite that her promotion af a World Teacher and Messiah named J. Krishnamurti was in clear opposition to the theosophical teachings original programe, she succeeded in doing a lot of good work to help and relieve suffering around the world. And her actitivies, books a writings and letters on theosophical subjects are evidences on this.]"
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH.
Do you understand me?
- - - - - - -
What is unclear it me and others are, where the limits the Theosophical Society operates within really are. And TS as such have through the time been tested in this regard, and continues to be tested. This is the law of life.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: preethi muthiah
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Perhaps if one went beyond the words these teachers used, one would realize that they meant the same thing but because the teachings were given at different periods of time, the words had to suit the receiving populations readiness.
Individualization and self-reliance in matters spiritual are emphasized by all the teachers mentioned in this discussion.. .and yet that is the one thing the current administration of the TS would stop us from growing into and realizing... the immensity of the human potential cannot be curtailed and any attempts to do so are futile...there will always be some one person who will find the courage to resist an attempt to curtail the speaking of the truth...whether that person was HPB or JK or Ramana Maharshi...
If the TS of today seeks to fulfill its purpose of existence, it must be a forum where such expression can find expression.. .unfortunately, intolerance is practised at all levels...
Fraternally
Preethi
--- On Sat, 10/10/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, 10 October, 2009, 11:51 AM
Dear John
My views are:
Maybe this posting by you on the topic of "atoms" in response to my talk about the Krishnamurti cult and pseudo-Messiahs from this thread will show you it all more clearly:
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 52952
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear John
I can use both links.
The links are e-mails - in this thread - created by me on the J. krishnamurti issue, and, are both of them useful in the sense, that they describe my views on the crisis in TS Adyar. They have not necessarily anything to do with you or any particular person at this forum. I was simply answering Preethi's e-mail in this thread. Okay?
I wil repeat MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS:
"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and
sees its doom."
http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_ 027.htm
http://www.blavatsk y.net/blavatsky/ arts/ModernApost lesAndPseudoMess iahs.htm
The AIM of the theosophical teachings are to create a universal brotherhood, and thereby of course seek to do as HPB puts it:
"The chief aim of the Founder. of the Eclectic Theosophical School was one of the three objects of its modern successor, the Theosophical Society, namely, to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities. " (The Key to Thesophy, 2. ed. , p. 2-3)
M. Sufilight asks:
Now how that can come about by using J. Krishnamurti' s teachings as the main ones I cannot see. And how can one reconcile anything by promoting a Messiah-craze (through Annie Besant and Leadbeater)? And by continously maintaining a Messiah-craze by accepting Annie Besant version herof until this day?
And TS Adyar as always remain silent to these questions. These things are appearntly no allowed to be told the TRUTH about.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@ comcast.net
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Morten,
The first link you provided # 52950 as not a message I made, it was some one else, but it wasn't me. Just to clarify a little bit of confusion.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 9:40:52 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear Preethi and friends
My views are:
Maybe because nobidy really have answered or replied to my views about the Krishanmurti cults persistent existence within TS Adyar, which according to my views are in opposition to the original programe given by H. P. Blavatsky and other theosophists.
I state a view on that in this thread
Here:
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 52950 (1)
And here:
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 52962 (2)
Instead I got an answer from John, who appearently disklied my two posts, and who (in a to me somewhat unclear manner) started to ask questions about H. P. Blavatsky's teachings, and to a certain extend sought to create doubt about her teachings validity. Well, that is what I so far have perceived his e-mails. Yet we are Seekers after Truth, so his honest approach aught to be listened to and compared with H. P. Blavatsky's teachings, so it might benefit various Seekers me and John included. That is unless someone knows the picture on a higher level are will step in and teach about where we go from here - in the land of Parabrahm and theosophical teachings.
- - -
Bottom line as far as I am concerned is: Either you accept the J. Krishnamurti cult (and there by Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeaters promotions) or you support H. P. Blavatsky and the Masters teachings. there is no middle ground here. And TS Adyar aught to be made aware of it. Yet any theosophical Seeker should of course question the original programes validity.
yet H. P. Blavatsky and her friends stated at the beggining of the Theosophical Society's existence the following in thefirst preamble to the formation of the organisation The Theosophical Society, that :
"Preamble of the T.S.
Dated October 30, 1875; reprinted in The Theosophical Forum, September 1947, pp. 515-18
The title of the Theosophical Society explains the objects and desires of its founders: they seek "to obtain knowledge of the nature and attributes of the Supreme Power and of the higher spirits by the aid of physical processes." In other words, they hope, that by going deeper than modern science has hitherto done, into the esoteric philosophies of ancient times, they may be enabled to obtain, for themselves and other investigators, proof of the existence of an "Unseen Universe," the nature of its inhabitants, if such there be, and the laws which govern them and their relations with mankind.
Whatever may be the private opinions of its members, the society has no dogmas to enforce, no creed to disseminate. It is formed neither as a Spiritualistic schism, nor to serve as the foe or friend of any sectarian or philosophic body. Its only axiom is the omnipotence of truth, its only creed a profession of unqualified devotion to its discovery and propagation. In considering the qualifications of applicants for membership, it knows neither race, sex, color, country nor creed."
ETC., ETC.
http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /gfkforum/ ourdir.htm# Preamble% 20of%20the% 20T.S.
And H. P. Blavatsky said in her book the Key to Theosophy, 2. ed, 1890:
"The Theosophical Society was organized for the purpose of promulgating the Theosophical doctrines, and for the promotion of the Theosophic life." ( p. 16).
http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/aKEY. htm
While the Krishnamurti camp or cult agree upon another programe:
It was required that each member of the Theosophical Society agreed upon being a member of The Order of the Star in the East (the cult promoting J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher and Messiah of the Age). Else the member would be expelled.
Yet, we can nealy all of us agree upon, that the following given by H. P. Blavatsky in the Theosophist as its Editor, or one named Spectator, by HPB being allowed his/her article to be printed in the Theosophist:
MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS
"Wherever Theosophy spreads, there it is impossible for the deluded to mislead, or the deluded to follow. It opens a new path, a forgotten philosophy which has lived through the ages, a knowledge of the psychic nature of man, which reveals alike the true status of the Catholic saint, and the spiritualistic medium the Church condemns. IT GATHER REFORMERS TOGETHER, THROWS LIGHT ON THEIR WAY, AND TEACHES THEM HOW TO WORK TOWARDS A DESIRABLE END WITH MOST EFFECT, BUT FORBIDS ANY TO ASSUME A CROWN OR SECPTRE, and no less delivers from a futile crown of thorns. Mesmerisms and astral influences fall back, and the sky grows clear enough for higher light. It hushes the âLo here! and lo there!â and declares the Christ, like the kingdom of heaven, to be within. It guards and applies every aspiration and capacity to serve humanity in any man and shows him how. It overthrows the giddy pedestal, and safely cares for the human being on solid ground. Hence, in
this way, and in all other ways, it is the truest deliverer and saviour of our time.
To enumerate the various âMessiahsâ and their beliefs and works would fill volumes. It is needless. When claims conflict, all, on the face of it, cannot be true. Some have taught less error than others. It is almost the only distinction. And some have had fine powers imperilled and paralysed by leadings they did not understand.
Of one thing, rationally-minded people, apart from Theosophists, may be sure. And that is, service for humanity is its all-sufficient reward; and that empty jars are the most resonant of sound. To know a very little of the philosophy of life, of manâs power to redeem wrongs and to teach others, to perceive how to thread the tangled maze of existence on this globe, and to accomplish aught of lasting and spiritual benefit, is to annihilate all desire or thought of posing as a heaven-sent saviour of the people. For a very little self-knowledge is a leveller indeed, and more democratic than the most ultra-radical can desire. The best practical reformers of the outside abuses we have known, such as slavery, deprivation of the rights of woman, legal tyrannies, oppressions of the poor, have NEVER dreamed of posing as Messiahs. Honor, worthless as it is, followed them unsought, for a tree is known by its fruits, and to this day âtheir works do follow
them."
.......
"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and sees its doom."
(signed SPECTATOR).
_______
A few comments:
As long as Ts Adyar's halls speak a loud SILENCE on this and as long as TS Adyar are quite unwilling to CLEARLY distance it self from the Krishnamurti cult and those who un the past unjustly promoted it - As well as those who unjustly promote it know, I will have to reject that they can have any claim on following the original programe as it was given in 1875 by HPB and others - Masters included, and I will have to reject that they follow a program qhich can at all be called healthy unless you will call the theosophical teachings of all ages a Messiah cult. - And because of that they do not deseve to wear the name The Theosophical Society on the front of their Crowns and on their secptres. - These are my views and if I am wrong then please, please let me know.
So a tree is known on its fruits, is it not?
And we aught to recognize the truth when it is proven to us, allright?
So are you and others saying, that TS Adyar with its near total acceptance of Annie Besant's teachings and from this also near total acceptance of CWL's and J. Krishnamurti' s teachings - are showing such fruits and activities as the above article mentions???
What I am saying is, that when they can accept the J. Krishnamurti cult and its promoters, why do they not also endorse other similar present day Messiah cults on the globe?
The continous - No Answer - attitude in TS Adyar circles to this issue reveals to me, that they are not honest Seekers, but merely believers, followers and especially promoters of BELIEF and not promoters of knowledge and visdom. And this the theosophical teachings clealry rejects!
M. Sufilight
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