Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Oct 07, 2009 11:12 AM
by Augoeides-222
Morten,
Thanks for your reply and comments.
>>>Is it not true, that each Atom in the universe have emanated from Parabrahm to become what it is on this physical level?
But, that question was maybe not what you sought as an answer. The answer according to theosophical teachings is: There are no atom not being connected with Parabrahm. The divine - as ParaBrahm beyond thoughts - is within you and all and everything throughout the Universe and eternity. The Law of karma is always just <<<
Again, you insist on being evasive by posting this response. I refer you to all my previous posts about Non-dual Krama Siva' School that I have posted here for over 10 years now and my current posts on this thread.I have already stated the same content many times here. But still i am indicating the micro which is the important element in view of our transmigratory status.Patanjali would have never written the Yoga Sutra if you view was proper in the case of individuality viz the macro "generality" you posit.
>>>>From the Theosophical Glossary by HPB (posthomously published):
"Brahma (Sk.). The student must distinguish between Brahma the neuter, and BrahmÃ, the male creator of the Indian Pantheon. The former, Brahma or Brahman, is the impersonal, supreme and uncognizable Principle of the Universe from the essence of which all emanates, and into which all returns, which is incorporeal, immaterial, unborn, eternal, beginningless and endless. It is all-pervading, animating the highest god as well as the smallest mineral atom. Brahmà on the other hand, the male and the alleged Creator, exists periodically in his manifestation only, and then again goes into pralaya, i.e., disappears and is annihilated."<<<
My view is the following in regards to the above content The secondary World Brahma in the definition --- disappears and is annihilated. I don't agree with the stated context, let me give my view.
Instead of "disappear" in the context of pralaya I think the better wording would be "becomes unmanifest." I consider that nothing can be annilihated the same as Blavatsky also considers.
And in regards to "is annihilated" I don't agree with that at all. Let me give my view. If the "Secondary World Brahma" were annilihated at the pralaya then as consequence there is not any skandha of it to reconstitute when manisfestation next occurs and as such this would dismember the very engine of the manvantara's as all that was manisfest by reason of secondary projection and action are subject to karma and the storehouse of karma are the skandhas and the Secondary World Brahma is subject to the same as all inherently due to being "secondary" are. So in my view it canot be "annilihated" but instead it's accumulations are stored as skandha repository to remanisfest when the breath again is outward thereby preserving the continuity of the Secondary Brahma. And also as Blavatsky indicates seven instead of five skandhas it is even more strong that it is not annihilated.
I thank you for Blavatskys article below. In it she is primarily discussing the Prana Shariya of manifest relative objects and things. The Life force is not the Manas, the mind is the created "secondary" instrumentality that facilitates what enables karma to take existance at all, if mind had not been a "secondary" creation there could never be karma. Life (Prana) is Victorious. The Mandaeans proclaim as they were aware the non-dual intrinsic Nature of Life is inseperable from Absolute and as basis for inbreathing and outbreathing and is substrate to all manisfestation. It is the Ocean of Beauty in which we sail.
Regards,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:55:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear John and friends
My views are:
John, I did in fact ask you to provide me with a quote from HPB on where she mentions "Permanent Atoms" and "Firefly's" in relation with Unseen "Hosts"?
And I dear say, that if you read the Secret Doctrine in the Proem carefully and the quotes from my previous e-mail you will one day understand that I am talking about the micro level as well.
Is it not true, that each Atom in the universe have emanated from Parabrahm to become what it is on this physical level?
But, that question was maybe not what you sought as an answer. The answer according to theosophical teachings is: There are no atom not being connected with Parabrahm. The divine - as ParaBrahm beyond thoughts - is within you and all and everything throughout the Universe and eternity. The Law of karma is always just.
__________________
>From the Theosophical Glossary by HPB (posthomously published):
"Brahma (Sk.). The student must distinguish between Brahma the neuter, and BrahmÃ, the male creator of the Indian Pantheon. The former, Brahma or Brahman, is the impersonal, supreme and uncognizable Principle of the Universe from the essence of which all emanates, and into which all returns, which is incorporeal, immaterial, unborn, eternal, beginningless and endless. It is all-pervading, animating the highest god as well as the smallest mineral atom. Brahmà on the other hand, the male and the alleged Creator, exists periodically in his manifestation only, and then again goes into pralaya, i.e., disappears and is annihilated."
http://theosophy.org/Blavatsky/Theosophical%20Glossary/Thegloss.htm
TRANSMIGRATION OF THE LIFE ATOMS by H. P. Blavatsky:
"The "Jiva," or life principle which animates man, beast, plant or even a mineral, certainly is "a form of force, indestructible," since this force is the one life, or anima mundi, the universal living soul, and that the various modes in which the various objective things appear to us in nature in their atomic aggregations, such as minerals, plants, animals, etc., are all the different forms or states in which this force manifests itself. Were it to become, we will not say absent, for this is impossible, since it is omnipresent, but for one single instant inactive, say in a stone, the particles of the latter would lose instantly their cohesive property and disintegrate as suddenly--though the force would still remain in each of its particles, but in a dormant state. Thus the continuation of the sentence which states that, when this indestructible force is "disconnected with one set of atoms, it becomes attracted immediately by others" does not imply that it abandons entirely the first set, but only that it transfers its vis viva or living power, the energy of motion, to another set. But because it manifests itself in the next set as what is called Kinetic energy, it does not follow that the first set is deprived of it altogether; for it is still in it, as potential energy, or life latent.3 This is a cardinal and basic truth of occultism, on the perfect knowledge of which depends the production of every phenomenon. Unless we admit this point, we should have to give up all the other truths of occultism. Thus what is "meant by the life-atom going through endless transmigration" is simply this: we regard and call in our occult phraseology those atoms that are moved by Kinetic energy as "life-atoms," while those that are for the time being passive, containing but invisible potential energy, we call "sleeping atoms," regarding at the same time those two forms of energy as produced by the one and same force, or life. We have to beg our readers' indulgence: we are neither a man of science, nor an English scholar. Forced by circumstances to give out the little we know, we do the best we can and explain matters to the best of our ability. Ignorant of Newton's laws, we claim to know something only of the Occult Laws of motion. And now to the Hindu doctrine of Metempsychosis."
http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/TransmigrationOfTheLifeAtoms.htm
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Morten,
No, it is not alright. You are prevaricating and intentionally being evasive lol! I am speaking of the context of the micro individual level and you reply with the macro level lol.
Regards,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" < global-theosophy@stofanet.dk >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 2:05:25 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear John and friends
My views are:
a) The Secret Doctrine is here:
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/SDVolume_I.htm
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/SDVolume2.htm
b) The Key to Theosophy is here:
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm
c) Blavatsky's Glossary here - (This is a bit too in-accurate):
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Aglossary.htm
Try also this:
http://www.archive.org/stream/theosophicalglo00meadgoog
- - -
A number of the Budhistisc Texts are sadly not online yet. And especially not those mentioned by HPB.
John wrote:
"Most all of your links are very good reading but most are also wide generalities not specified to what you requested me to look up for you and just don't provide pointed specific content so aren't of use in this topis thread. "
M. Sufilight says:
In what sense are they wide generalities?
I asked you to provide me with a quote on where HPB refers to "Permanent Atoms" and "Fire-fly's" in relation to the Unseen "hosts" you mentioned in your question to me. If you are not able to do that and be more specific I find it hard to answer you question.
- - -
I think the answer is present in the Secret Doctrine by HPB in the Proem (The Secret Doctrine, Volume 1, p. 1-27), if you would care to read it, and also elsewhere in the same book.
" By "centre," a centre of energy or a Cosmic focus is meant; when the so-called "Creation," or formation of a planet, is accomplished by that force which is designated by the Occultists LIFE and by Science "energy," then the process takes place from within outwardly, every atom being said to contain in itself creative energy of the divine breath. Hence, whereas after an absolute pralaya, or when the pre-existing material consists but of ONE Element, and BREATH "is everywhere," the latter acts from without inwardly: after a minor pralaya, everything having remained in statu quo â in a refrigerated state, so to say, like the moon â at the first flutter of manvantara, the planet or planets begin their resurrection to life from within outwardly. "
(The Secret Doctrine, Volume 1, p. 12)
"For although the root of every atom individually and of every form collectively, is that seventh principle or the one Reality, still, in its manifested phenomenal and temporary appearance, it is no better than an evanescent illusion of our senses. (See, for clearer definition, Addendum "Gods, Monads and Atoms," and also "Theophania," "Bodhisatvas and Reincarnation," etc., etc.)"
(The Secret Doctrine, Volume 1, p. 18)
Allright?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Morton, Thanks for your reply and comments. I don't have the CD of the SD so can't do a fast global search li9ke so many others can do. Most all of your links are very good reading but most are also wide generalities not specified to what you requested me to look up for you and just don't provide pointed specific content so aren't of use in this topis thread. Reigles Article I will read soon. I don't personally interprete "skandhas" as bodies when the pralaya happens all bodies are resolved into the prior existing substance of purush. The Permanent Atoms are what is stored as "skandhas" normal Buddhist literate 5 skandhas bur Blavatsky lists 7.
"Buddhist. [skand= to rise]. Five, esoterically seven.Karmic and innate attributes of the finite: 1.rupa=form; 2. vidana=perception; 3.sanjna=consciousness; 4 samskara=action; 5. vidyana=knowledge. Cf. Vidya. The essence of the attributes endures between incarnations, uniting at birth to form the personality. Cf. Quinary, Sevens, Reincarnation, Nidana. Also used for a King or Prince; and for the divisions of an Army. Name for Kartikeya."
"Kartikeya" [ Form krittika, the Pleiades, his nurses]. So-called God of War, identified with Mars. Son of Siva, his Outgoing Energy, as contrasted with Ganesha, the Inward turned Energy. Cf. Dvadasha, Kara, Lohita, Skanda, Sanatkumura, Taradaitya.
Ref. Vol. 6 SD Page 460.
The Inflows and the Outflows of moment to moment receptions. In the Pistis Sophia the mystery's of the within and the without? The structural frame of the Dialectic of Plato and Socrates. BTW,has anyone here read about the new "Red Book" of C. G. Jung? There are online views and articles about this exciting personal journal of 16 years length of Jung's personal "dream" contents and and examination and analysis of what the mean. Tibetan Dream Yoga comes to my mind.
Ref. Secret Doctrine Vol.6 Adyar Edition 1971, Index and Glossary, Page 479. A "Host" is also euphemism for "Army". many times when reading various instructions on meditation the term "giving rise" in the mind to an image or thought or preception, feeling, smell, taste happens. So when the being having possession of mind as instrument that avails perception in state of samskara all are only "secondary world" productions and are relative and are imaginary deposits. The Nidana are the twelve causes of finite existence. Ref. Page 467 Same Vol. .
Regards,
John
>>>deem it foolish to theorize upon the abstract and "unknowable" power in its passive condition.<<<
It is the above that is what IS when the firefly's have been exhausted and it is our primordial Nature that is called unknowable and inconceivable.
"Atom", Gk. [ a=not+temno= to cut]. Used in occultism toto indicate individual livesfrom the greatest to the most minute. Cf. Unity, anu. Ref. Vol. 6 S.D. page 449.
"Anu" is prex of the yoga you have indicated with your link. As Atma is "Mother" the descriptive is accurate. Mother Father spin a web. Knowledge and Method intertwined.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" < global-theosophy@stofanet.dk >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 10:35:52 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear John and friends
My views are:
John wrote:
Morten,
Well I read your reply but where did it engage the topic of the unseen "Hosts" in each of us that Blavatsky calls the "permanent atoms" and "firefly's" that are the scattered remnents of incarnate personas which all do battle to acheive surfacing with impact and effect, like a crowd in a football stadium, or a parliment with members desperate to win the vote, or a mob each trying to obtain reward or many other possibilities of combinations.
M. Sufilight:
I wrote: I am chewing on the questions.
But here is an answer.
Please provide a quote on where HPB was talking about "permanent atoms" and "firefly's" in relation to unseen "Hosts".
Then I will better be able to seek out an answer on this issue.
---------
Yet the following links might be helpful.
HPB's models of the planes.
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/images/est2.jpg ( Place this diagram above - HPB's
model in the below letting the Unmanifested Logos be the connection between the
diagrams.)
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_053_p4.jpg
And perhaps also - http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/SDVolume_I.htm (p. 157, diagram)
The talk about Svabhavikas in HPB's book The Secret Doctrine's Proem might also be helpful to consider.
"The Svabhavikas, or philosophers of the oldest school of Buddhism (which still exists in Nepal), speculate only upon the active condition of this "Essence," which they call SvabhÃvat, and deem it foolish to theorize upon the abstract and "unknowable" power in its passive condition. Hence they are called atheists by both Christian theologians and modern scientists, for neither of the
two are able to understand the profound logic of their philosophy. The former will allow of no other God than the personified secondary powers which have worked out the visible universe, and which became with them the anthropomorphic God of the Christians â the male Jehovah, roaring amid thunder and lightning. In its turn, rationalistic science greets the Buddhists and the SvabhÃvikas as the "positivists" of the archaic ages. If we take a one-sided view of the philosophy of the latter, our materialists may be right in their own way. The Buddhists maintained that there is no Creator, but an infinitude of creative powers, which collectively form the one eternal substance, the essence of which is inscrutable â hence not a subject for speculation for any true philosopher. Socrates invariably refused to argue upon the mystery of universal being, yet no one would ever have thought of charging him with atheism, except those who were bent upon his destruction. Upon inaugurating an active period, says the Secret Doctrine, an expansion of this Divine essence from without inwardly and from within outwardly, occurs in obedience to eternal and immutable law, and the phenomenal or visible universe is the ultimate result of the long chain of cosmical forces thus progressively set in motion. In like manner, when the passive condition is resumed, a contraction of the Divine essence takes place, and the previous work of creation is gradually and progressively undone. The visible universe becomes disintegrated, its material dispersed; and 'darkness' solitary and alone, broods once more over the face of the 'deep.' To use a Metaphor from the Secret Books, which will convey the idea still more clearly, an out-breathing of the 'unknown essence' produces the world; and an inhalation causes it to disappear. This process has been going on from all eternity, and our present universe is but one of an infinite series, which had no beginning and will have no end." â (See "Isis Unveiled"; also "The Days and Nights of BrahmÃ" in Part II.)
This passage will be explained, as far as it is possible, in the present work. Though, as it now stands, it contains nothing new to the Orientalist, its esoteric interpretation may contain a good deal which has hitherto remained entirely unknown to the Western student."
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/SDVolume_I.htm
And we know that the Proem of Secret Doctrine by HPB very interestingly was based on the "Ratna-gotra-vibhaga", also called the Uttara-tantra. And that it was not easily classified by the Buddhists themselves. And that it contains SEVEN - "diamonds" to penetrate.
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/reigle01.html
Also "Uttaratantra Shastra"
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Uttaratantra_shastra
You know reading Buddhist texts without the non-dead-letter key will often lead the Seekers astray. A great number of western translated texts sadly suffers from this. English is not always the best language to use.
----
About reincarnation and that Skandhas (bodies), atoms and elements. One could try The Key to Theosophy, HPB's Glossary (there are indeed good info there), and elsewhere, and perhaps later relate this to the content in The Secret Doctrine by HPB on the same.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Morten,
Well I read your reply but where did it engage the topic of the unseen "Hosts" in each of us that Blavatsky calls the "permanent atoms" and "firefly's" that are the scattered remnents of incarnate personas which all do battle to acheive surfacing with impact and effect, like a crowd in a football stadium, or a parliment with members desperate to win the vote, or a mob each trying to obtain reward or many other possibilities of combinations. Buddhism says there is no abiding self but doesn't absolutely say what remains that is always there like the permenent atoms that still evoke past life personas on a micro scale within each of us, and also compose the deposits of the skandhas. In Scientology they are called genetic entitys, in Tibet they are referred to as "Ancient Dwellings" or "clusters of force" or "Human Elementals" and "aggregates". In the Gnostic Crucifixion (G.R.S. Mead) the drama of the cross of light and the vast multitude that that circles around it. We each have a vast multitude that like moths attracted to us by means of previous present and future contacts assemble by affections and all try to contribute to the whole just as we observe on the macro scale of the world about us in which we evolve participation, make thoughts of, create energy about . What really are all the parts that construct our nature? Have we left out something important? I, when I think of this cloud of being, this formation of living history that is unique in each person that can be composed of every type and caliber and all that was and will be see reasons for what appears on the macro stage of the world in which we have expression of. Whether Organization or any other level of scale the universal common denominator is what composes our personas gross, middling, and subtle. When one is truly empty one has found each of the entity's ie; permenent atoms of transitioning other selves that compose our whole economy of residual beings and are then striped away to re-arrive at the primal original reality Being. And in the meantime samsara continues. Blavatsky didn't necessarily say all but she did hint at much more at times.
In my opinion as I previously stated I see the critical point as that point where Adyar Booted Madame Blavatsky out unto the street without means and told the solitary agent of the Brothers she was no longer desired to be there and to leave by morning and that her consul likewise was not wanted or desired by those who remainded. Where did the Brothers say anyone had perogative to seperate Blavatsky from them?
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" < global-theosophy@stofanet.dk >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 2:20:44 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Dear friends
My views are:
John wrote:
"Are political parties and organizations only mimicing the contest within each of us? Is the entirety of what we can preceptual see of mankind only the arrivals of mainly the dead that we are hosting? Lol! Bite on that for discerning the motives of organizations Lol! "
M. Sufilight answers:
Thank you for offering that view. I am chewing on the questions.
I would shortly say: A tree is known on its Fruits.
And we aught to recognize the truth when it is proven to us. And when it is proven that theosophical teachings are not what they are not.
If an organization leads people towards spiritual and true theosophical liberation, - that is, a Universal Brotherhood, it is very well.
If not, we will have to reject its practises.
_______
I have in the below excerpt thrown a few words som of them in Uppercase from Lucifer magazine 1890.
MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS
"Wherever Theosophy spreads, there it is impossible for the deluded to mislead, or the deluded to follow. It opens a new path, a forgotten philosophy which has lived through the ages, a knowledge of the psychic nature of man, which reveals alike the true status of the Catholic saint, and the spiritualistic medium the Church condemns. IT GATHER REFORMERS TOGETHER, THROWS LIGHT ON THEIR WAY, AND TEACHES THEM HOW TO WORK TOWARDS A DESIRABLE END WITH MOST EFFECT, BUT FORBIDS ANY TO ASSUME A CROWN OR SECPTRE, and no less delivers from a futile crown of thorns. Mesmerisms and astral influences fall back, and the sky grows clear enough for higher light. It hushes the âLo here! and lo there!â and declares the Christ, like the kingdom of heaven, to be within. It guards and applies every aspiration and capacity to serve humanity in any man and shows him how. It overthrows the giddy pedestal, and safely cares for the human being on solid ground. Hence, in this way, and in all other ways, it is the truest deliverer and saviour of our time.
To enumerate the various âMessiahsâ and their beliefs and works would fill volumes. It is needless. When claims conflict, all, on the face of it, cannot be true. Some have taught less error than others. It is almost the only distinction. And some have had fine powers imperilled and paralysed by leadings they did not understand.
Of one thing, rationally-minded people, apart from Theosophists, may be sure. And that is, service for humanity is its all-sufficient reward; and that empty jars are the most resonant of sound. To know a very little of the philosophy of life, of manâs power to redeem wrongs and to teach others, to perceive how to thread the tangled maze of existence on this globe, and to accomplish aught of lasting and spiritual benefit, is to annihilate all desire or thought of posing as a heaven-sent saviour of the people. For a very little self-knowledge is a leveller indeed, and more democratic than the most ultra-radical can desire. The best practical reformers of the outside abuses we have known, such as slavery, deprivation of the rights of woman, legal tyrannies, oppressions of the poor, have NEVER dreamed of posing as Messiahs. Honor, worthless as it is, followed them unsought, for a tree is known by its fruits, and to this day âtheir works do follow them."
.......
"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and sees its doom."
(signed SPECTATOR).
_______
So a tree is known on its fruits, is it not?
And we aught to recognize the truth when it is proven to us, allright?
So are you and others saying, that TS Adyar with its near total acceptance of Annie Besant's teachings and from this also near total acceptance of CWL's and J. Krishnamurti's teachings - are showing such fruits and activities as the above article mentions???
I clearly say: No!
And I will challenge anyone to show me that I am wrong, even if they will call me a black sheep which they omit helping.
I find the J. Krishnamurti camps to be a disgrace to the theosophical teachings. And I will tell you why.
I wil repeat:
"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and sees its doom."
Its main plotters behind the scenes have tried its fist against the wisdom teachings in the 1910'ties, 1920'ties and 1930'ties and so on, - and in fact also through the use of physical wars. But it is loosing the battle and knows it to it self, and bitterly. - Any leading theosophist aught to dispel any talk about promoting a "Messiah-Craze". That is, If not, he or she will be worthy of the name of being a true theosophist. Any Messiah-Craze leads not towards liberation in the theosophical spirit, but towards closed mindedness, and fantatical Bhakti worship.
Any comments?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
Morten, all
Hmmm, what are the permanent atoms of Blavatsky? What is the crowd of human elementals that we all host as a fraction of our presentments? What is indicated by the gnostic crucifixion? Where does what is left of us go when we all die? How does what is left of us become part of the fraction of the host of others after we die? And how do our personal hosts contribute to our karma? Can it be that mankind on the scale of dynamics mimics directly the hosts of human elemantals that compose our personal pretext of being? Are political parties and organizations only mimicing the contest within each of us? Is the entirety of what we can preceptual see of mankind only the arrivals of mainly the dead that we are hosting? Lol! Bite on that for discerning the motives of organizations Lol!
Regars,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" < global-theosophy@stofanet.dk >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2009 9:11:04 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
LOL.
Interesting short one liner. :-)
__________
1.
...Hmmm...
I find that what some Seekers after Truth enjoy, or call pleasant, or want - not seldom, is not what they spiritually Need.
What some Seekers may take to be attractive, or even spread out by us
to be attractive to them, may well not be intended in this manner at
all. That which attracts them, or others, about us may be that
which is laid down by us as a tool which enables us to regard
them (or others) as unsuitable.
_____
A question to consider in relation to the above:
So how to relate to theosophical teachings about organisational structures broadly speaking or in general?
***
You can learn more in half an hour's direct contact with a
source of knowledge (no matter the appearent reason for the
contact or the subject of the transaction) than you can in years
of formal effort.
_____
So, I say let those who can help offer such a help.
It is to me a question about maintaining and keeping the Light.
***
___________
2.
My views are:
THE KRISHNAMURTI CULT:
Interestingly we often hear the following statement by each individual on the globe:
"A cult is a cult is a cult â unless itâs my religious group."
And if it's not my social tribe, or it's not the cultural group i belong to, it must be no good or less good than mine - or watched with a fanatical high degree of suspision. And similar.
Let us not forget that for instance that the Krishanmurti religion was a cult in its beginning days, when the Messiah and World Teacher were promoted through a - clear destruction - of the Masters and HPB's original programe!
Unfortunately, almost every individuals upbringing helps to invest him or her with a set of beliefs which, adopted when too young to be questioned, often come to masquerade as knowledge, later in life. The combined effect of childhood indoctrination and the socialisation process, at its most succesful and effective level, serves to blinker an indiviudal to reality and create a dependance on a belief system - any belief system, (even sometimes one which calls it self theosophical in a dead-letter sense).
The word indoctrination has a bad flavour to it. But, indoctrination defined at its simplest, means to imbue with a doctrine. To 'imbue' means to permeate or to saturate, implying a process that can be much more subtle than the repetitious reciting of approved slogans. As authors who have been concerned by the concepts of coersion and behaviour manipulation show, most of us (or people) are indoctrinated throughout our lives, often withour even knowing it. Beliefs almost 'grow' into us (masqueraded as real knowledge) They are then sustained and protected, usually unconsciously, by the physiological and psychological processes of perception.
Of course there is more to it than this. But I hope that you understand the idea I am seeking to forward here.
___________
3.
"METHOD, SYSTEM AND CONDITIONING
There are four main factors which, when applied to human beings, "programme" them almost like machines. These are factors which are used in indoctrination and conditioning. By their use, deliberate or otherwise, the human mind is made more mechanical, and will tend to think along stereotyped lines.
Innumerable experiments, recent and ancient, have fully verified the presence and effect of these factors. They are: tension alternating with relaxation, sloganisation and repetition.
Becasue most human beings are trained to accept these factors as part of their "learning" process, almost everything which is presented to a human being to be learned is generally converted by him into material which he applies by these methods.
The test of a teaching system, and of its succes, is whether (1) it is applied by these methods, knowingly or otherwise; (2) it develops into a system which uses these methods.
In the various groupings of people engaged in this kind of teaching whom I have contacted during the past few years, virtually none is free from this element or these factors. The result is that one set of slogans has been changed for another: and phrases like "man is asleep", words like "essence", certain exercises and techniques as well as literary material, have been studied so closely and dilligently that they have succeeded in the main only in indoctrination. Their instrumental effect is spent.
It is mainly for this reason that tradition repeatedly says that the formulation must change in accordance with the people, the place and the Work. Some groups, which call themselves theosophical tend to forget about this.
It is extremely easy to test the individuals who have developed (through no fault of their own) this 'conditioned-reflex' response to work-terms and other teaching stimuli. Such people always respond in a typical manner to approaches made to them, and in this respect they do not differ from people who have been indoctrinated into any static or linear system: political, patriotic, economic, religious, philosophical, and perhaps even a claimed theosophical one, where the extra dimension of understanding is weak or absent.
If we retrace our position to the point just before the learning and teaching became 'established' as a conditioning in the mind of the individuals, we can reclaim the flexibility which the work demands.
People ordinarily do not reach deeply enough into themselves to find out how to learn about what Theosophists call Reality. They make premature assumptions about how to learn, and what attracts them must be good, and so on, which in the end defeats their putative purpose.
The repeated upsurge of apparently different schools of higher study in various epochs and cultures is due in large part to the need to rescue genuine traditional teachings from the automatism and social-psychological-entertainment functions which regularly and deeply invade and, for the most part, eventually possess them.
Therefore it could be well to some readers to ponder, that some af the schools are maybe not at all using the names "Theosophy" or "Theoosphical" in their teachings.
Certain physical and mental exercises, as an example, are of extremely significant importance for the furthering of higher human functions. If these are practised by people who use things for emotional, social or callisthenic purposes, they will not operate on a higher level with such people. They become merely a means of getting rid of surplus energy, or of assuaging a sense of frustration. The practioners, however, regularly and almost invariably mistake their subjective experiences of them for "something higher".
It is for this reason that legitimate traditonal higher teachings are parsimonious with their materials and exercises.
Where there is ideology, conditioning and indoctrination, a mechanical element is introduced which drives out the factor of extradimensional reality perception which connects the higher functions of the mind with the higher reality.
Theosophical or spiritual experiences are designed to maintain a harmony with and nearness to this Reality, while mechanical systems effectively distance people from it. "
(by a friend)
_________________
The Initiates have their own methods of dettering unsuitable people. The ordinary Seeker or the intellectual academic and Ph.D. may only know one or two ways.
:-)
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: charles cosimano
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
This sort of thing is going to go on and on as long as people invest their energies into organizational horse manure.
Chuck the Heretic
http://www.charlescosimano.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Cass Silva < silva_cass@yahoo.com >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Oct 1, 2009 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
I think History repeats itself because new people get into power and they like it! lol
Cass
>
>From: seeker_preethi < seeker_preethi@yahoo.com >
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 6:58:24 PM
>Subject: Theos-World Crisis In the TS -- A New Phenomenon or an Ongoing Process?
>
>
>Dear Brothers,
>
>They say that history repeats itself. Perhaps it repeats itself because humans tend not to learn from past mistakes. Perhaps it repeats itself because humans resist change of any sort, preferring to continue in old ways, even when these have proved invalid and impracticable. In the TS too, history is currently repeating itself. Choosing to ignore the warnings of J. Krishnamurti when he dissolved the Order of the Star of the East, we have now made out of the TS a cult and out of the President a spiritual authority. The Theosophical Society has been going through crisis for over 80 years since Krishnamurti dissolved the Order of the=2
0Star of the East. Looking back over its history, one can see that even back then members of the TS had begun moving away from the main aim of the founding of the Society. Back then, CWL, CJ and GS Arundale, among others, held on to the outer form of the organization of the TS, which in those days spelt the founding and
functioning of the Order of the Star of the East as a means for them to (a) provide the world with a new World Teacher, whom they promptly rejected when he spoke of truths inconvenient to them, and (b) avail of the influence and power of the Masters of the Wisdom. There are many instances mentioned in Theosophical literature of how CWL and GS Arundale, in particular, took on `students' to give initiation to. On TheosTalk and Theosophical Community these days, we have had quotations of Annie Besant stating how she considered the ES to be the sole vehicle through which the Masters spread Their message, thereby giving the head of the ES more power and authority than is valid.
>
>Reading the Letters from the Masters to early Theosophists is very important at this time. But more important than this exercise is for each member to interpret rightly the message given in the Letters and to try to practise Their exhortations to the best of one's abilities.
>
>Perusing the Letters one will find that the Society has degenerated into its current form because Their messages of what the TS was meant to be have been violated, twisted and misinterpreted over the decades.
Studying the message of Krishnaji, not only when he dissolved the Order of the Star of the East but also his lifetime's teachings and lectures, one finds striking similarities between the messages from the Masters as given out in Their letters and the teachings and philosophy of J. Krishnamurti. Thus in Letter No. 1, one finds that the Masters mention as one of the principal Objects for founding the Society to be the freeing of members and people from the bonds of the priestly class. I interpret this to mean that between the Truth and oneself nothing and no one can exist, and when one chooses to listen to the voice or interpretation of another, one has already thereby started to engage in the false, the unreal and the illusory. Krishnaji's message
to the gathered members of the Order of the Star of the East was similar to that of the Masters stating that Truth is a Pathless land and no authority can lead one to it; whether that authority is a person or a group or an organization.
>
>We often quote Krishnaji in our talks and lectures, including this message; yet have we paused to find out what it means for ourselves? In order for one to realize that exhortation, one would have to try to live it, to experience it for oneself. In so doing, one would find that the current establishment heading the TS, much like the former ones when Krishnaji was exiled from the TS, would exile one from the TS. But are the TS and/or the ES only their outer forms, which is merely a congregat
ion of like-minded individuals? Or are they something more than and beyond whatever their outer form might be? The current establishment would have us believe as members of the TS that belongingness to the outer form or the physical TS and/or ES is all that matters, because the influence and blessing of the Masters of the Wisdom are given solely to the Head of the ES and her followers. But this interpretation is totally against everything we have known thus far. This
narrowed interpretation seems to mean that Truth appears only to the members of the TS and, especially the ES, and the rest of the world is barred from ever reaching the Truth or Enlightenment. Were this notion true, the Masters would never have appeared to HPB, because when They first made their appearance, there was no Theosophical Society. Yet there are members of the ES who will look down upon members of the TS, as though the mere membership of the ES were a privilege beyond compare. There are members of the TS consequently who look down upon the rest of humanity as though humanity were an ignorant bunch of people. There are members of the TS who have no other crutch to stand upon other than their lineage; thus we have in the TS many 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation `Theosophists' who have nothing else to claim for their commitment to the Cause other than their lineage, or in other words, their being born to parents who have been members of the TS since
birth. Often, these generational Theosophists do much more harm
to the movement by their total lack of commitment to the Cause and the main or fundamental Object behind the founding of the Society. This fundamental object is not stated in the Three Objects of the TS as given out in our Charter, and yet that Object is at the root or base of each of the Three Objects stated in the Charter of the TS. The fundamental Object for the founding of the Society is as stated in the first letter sent by the Mahatma KH to AP Sinnett, which is to free man from his dependence on the priestly class (which does not necessarily only include the Brahmins or pastors or the like, but any and every one who claims to possess the Truth and seeks to coerce others to follow their interpretation or version of Truth as being the only way to it) as the authority on Truth, Enlightenment and Evolutionary Progress, or for that matter, as the only way in which to reach God or Divine
Grace.
>
>What I am saying here is nothing new. The Upanishads stated it. Krishna stated it in the Bhagavadgita. The Buddha stated it when he said: `Be a lamp unto your selves'. All the World Teachers said it. The Masters of the Wisdom stated it. HPB said it. And so did Krishnamurti while dissolving the Order of the Star of the East. The literature we have been given are merely pointers to That Beyond. They ought to serve solely as guiding lights to when one can fully merge into the Light and become the Light itself. And it would seem from whatever is happening in the TS
and the ES to this day that those who are given the teachings hold on to the words (outer form) and forget the inner essence. We prefer to be told what to do, rather than finding out for ourselves what we are here in this world to do. That answer would be different for each of us, which is why no one can tell us what to do on the spiritual journey, which consists mainly of finding out our true
nature, often termed self-knowledge.
>
>Thus in Letter No. 35 of The Mahatma Letters to AP Sinnett (3rd Adyar Edition) we find the words: `Second hand testimony never really satisfied any but a credulous (or rather sceptical) mind.' In Letter No. 48 of the same edition we find: `As we do not "require a passive mind" but on the contrary are seeking for those most active, which can put two and two together once that they are on the right scent, . . . Let your mind work out the problem for itself.' Yet under the current administration of the TS we are forbidden from thinking for ourselves what might be the common good and are penalized were we ever to dare to think for ourselves, to defend the truth as we see it.
>
>Then there is the fallacy of believing that the Masters of the Wisdom will somehow save the situation for us. How might they do that when we do not pay heed to Their messages?
>
>They say God only helps those who want to help themselves. The same can be said of the Masters of the Wisdom as well, who are bound by the same laws that govern
the universe. We have repeatedly proved that we are unwilling to listen to them and to pay heed to the warnings given out by Them. We prefer rather to twist their words to suit our own conveniences. When faced with honesty, we prefer the speaker of these to lie to us, to help us to maintain our images of ourselves as the ones doing their best to save the Society. We punish the honest, penalize the truthful, excommunicate the ones who dare to stand up against our outer authority, tell the warning-alarm- ringer to shut their mouth and keep quiet. We use our official positions and authority to bend others to our will. Can the Masters truly help such a people as members of the TS, who prefer grand words to doing something concrete to help the TS in crisis? Members of the TS repeatedly prefer to
pretend that the crisis has nothing to do with them and their actions. In a Mahatma Letter the Masters mention that the British TS (of those days) were only a bunch of quietists and would suffer the results of their quietism which is based on their selfishness. Is the situation any different today? Not at all. Eyeing for positions of power and authority within the TS, members (whether ordinary ones with no power as yet or General Council ones) will do nothing when faced with the honest truth about the corruption rampant in Adyar today, solely because the corruption is practised by the international President.
>
>Today, as for several years now, Adyar is treated by the President as her pe
rsonal property. Thus those who stand up against her are asked to immediately vacate the international Headquarters, even though these people are working for the TS. If she doesn't like a member when they come and stay at Adyar, she won't permit them to visit and stay on campus again. So, the TS will eventually die out because there is a lack of openness to allow people to explore the teachings. Adyar has as it is become a stranglehold of the Nilakanta family, where Nandan Nilakanta will entertain his friends from the higher diplomatic circles with drinks, the emptied bottles of which he uses to fill and carry his water in and the emptied crates of which are found in his backyard garbage bin; where Uma Nilakanta will send bananas, bowls of soup and toilet paper to her kith and kin even though these articles were bought with TS money for Leadbeater Chambers; where Subha Nilakanta
will work only when she feels like it, but expect on the other hand the same treatment that is given to more committed members and workers. But how did the President manage to secure all these rights over what happens at the international Headquarters of the TS worldwide? We somehow over the decades have given her so much power over our lives and livelihood in the TS, that as of today she can abuse it all and yet get away with it. There was a time when only those who had proved their dedication to the Cause could stay on campus. But these days, several other employees stay on campus as well. These employ
ees contribute in no way to the growth of the movement. The excuse given for them to be allowed to stay on campus is that the physical walls of Adyar Estate need to be protected against sandalwood thieves. But these employees blare their television sets, radio sets, have countless relatives visiting them and staying with them on a monthly basis, all of
these taking away from the ashram-like atmosphere one could see in the TS even during the early 1990's. The latest news is that residents on the estate will now be allowed to have air-conditioners installed in their homes; but what about the cost to the atmosphere and environment, Mrs Burnier? As it is, there are more cars and motored vehicles plying on the serene byways of Adyar. Add to it the air-conditioning and we have a typical city scene within the campus as well. Rather than caring for Nature, Theosophists of the future will indulge themselves and participate with the consumeristic world by getting in more and more gadgets.
>
>So the Adyar of today is threatened not so much by the politicians who seek to build a flyover just across the Adyar beach, as it is threatened by all the corruption, materialism and consumerism that are being allowed into the campus by the President herself. The future of the Theosophical Society is threatened by the lack of care members feel towards the world in which we live, because `Theosophists' prefer to indulge themselves in luxuries rather than face a bit of discomfort by opting for environmentally- friend
ly and viable options that ensure the longevity of the earth and the universe, starting locally from what they like to call their home, Adyar. The Masters behoved us to be co-workers with Nature, but `Theosophists' have now become Her enemies. Amazing isn't it, that we still expect the Masters to save us from this situation. Krishnaji often spoke against the human tendency of taking things for granted. Have we as members of the TS and those
who love calling themselves Theosophists begun to take the TS, Theosophy and the Masters of the Wisdom for granted? The current administrative head of the TS has set up all those uncommitted employees of Adyar to protect the physical walls of the Estate, but has forgotten or omitted to see that the inner walls of the TS are filled with cracks and are crumbling today. What remains of Adyar today is merely a faÃade, while the inner essence has been hollowed out; slowly but steadily it is being sucked out of all its health and spirituality.
>
>My fight for the future of the Theosophical Society, especially of Adyar as its international Headquarters and against the corrupt ways and partialities of Mrs Radha Burnier is now 4 months old. Mrs Burnier kept silent through the entire fight, choosing not to do anything about the nature of the complaints. At the moment, Adyar is run by Mrs Linda and Mr Pedro Oliveira, who seek to maintain the older order, whether or not it has proved to be viable. Since 24 May 2009 I have not met the President, Mrs Ra
dha Burnier, even once.
>
>She chose to ignore the initial letter to the General Manager of the Estate stating the instances of corruption followed by her relative and Superintendent of Leadbeater Chambers, Mrs Uma Nilakanta. She chose to contest for the post of the international President, even though she is frail and of that age when she ought to retire and take life easy, and allow those younger than her to find their footing before she has passed on to other planes of existence. Perhaps like many other people the world over, she believes that if she ignored a problem, the problem will solve itself out. But those with more wisdom would know that ignoring a problem does not solve the problem. It is dealing with a problem that solves it. Accepting that a problem exists within the TS even today is ensuring that the problem will not continue in the future. That is what it means to become responsible â to accept one's part in this whole mess we call the Theosophical Society.
>
>But Mrs Burnier continues to twist the truth, the facts to suit her own images. That is what her followers also do. Take, for instance, the letter Prof. RC Tampi sent me when I resigned from the ES in May 2009, stating as my main reason Mrs Burnier's moral ineptitude and consequently her inability to lead me or the movement to a Higher state. In his email to me he stated that he expels me from the ES totally ignoring the fact that I resigned from it much before he sent me an expulsion email.
Who do Mrs Burnier and Prof. Tampi think they are cheating by such twisting of facts and events that happen everyday in the TS? Yet this cheating goes on; facts and events are twisted to suit the conveniences of the international President. During the international Convention, visiting delegates and members were told that Sushama Sreenath (who is now Sushama Webber) was responsible for the quitting of Mr G. Naganathan from the Editorial Office. Subha Nilakanta's
name was totally omitted from the incident; yet Subha played a key role in agreeing with Sushama's version and blamed Mr Naganathan for doing something he had not done. Subha Nilakanta has been responsible for the mess the Editorial Office was in when Pedro Oliveira took charge of the Department in March 2009, but no one in the Radha Burnier administration will address this issue and look at it to sort it out. One would assume that the Theosophical Society was founded with the purpose of giving honest, caring, sensitive, and evolving people a forum where they could express their evolving intuitions and states of being. One would assume that the TS, which was founded towards the close of the nineteenth century, would serve as a vehicle for those who would lead humanity forward during the Kali Yuga. But the Burnier administration disproves both these assumptions and everything that is part of the degenerating Kali Yuga is encouraged by Mrs Burnier,
whether that degeneration be loss of value systems, lack of morality, greed for more and more materi
al wealth and status, greed for power, or lack of care for the future of humanity and the universe.
>
>So what might be the purpose of the `continuation' of the Theosophical Society? Are we capable of learning from the mistakes that have led to the present situation and the degeneration of the very vehicle that was meant to serve as a driving moral and spiritual force for the future humanity? The rest of this article will concentrate on providing some suggestions which are based on an analysis of the crisis recurrent in the TS today.
>
>There was a time when the President of the TS was a person who knew and understood the Laws governing the universe, a person who placed his/her priorities in the good of the TS and of humankind and in the common good. But our current international President is not of that ilk. She has repeatedly over the years shown her inability to be fair, to judge with wisdom, to lead us forward into the next century. By her (mis)conduct, she has proved that she prefers gossip to directness, lies to honesty, partiality to fairness and justice. It was alright back then to have a President for life, but now the times are changing and we must, as Theosophists, learn to change with the changing times. The practice of continuing to have a President for life has proved to be a big mistake with the example of Mrs Radha Burnier. In our Kali Yuga, would it be possible for us to change the Rules of the Constitution of the TS and elect a President for one ter
m of seven years?
Additionally, for the next election neither the President nor any of his/her nominees can stand for the post. Doing this will ensure that there will be fairness in the election of a President of the TS. Additionally, it will provide the opportunity for more members to participate in building a future for the TS.
>
>While a member is President of the TS, his/her relatives shall hold no posts of importance in the TS, especially at Adyar. We have seen from the example of both Subha and Uma Nilakanta that their kinship with the President allows them both to misbehave with members and visitors, and, on the other hand, to practise corruption in various forms. Relatives of the President might help out with the work of the TS but hold no posts of authority, power and recognition. This will prohibit the misuse of power and authority by relatives of the President and additionally ensure that there can be no scope for any partiality to be practised.
>
>As Adyar is the international Headquarters, the say of all the members of the General Council ought to be valid and made necessary in its administration. This will ensure that what happened to countless worker-residents at Adyar at the mouth of Ms Subha Nilakanta does not recur. Also, what happened to Elvira and Preethi does not happen either. In other words, the power and authority which lie solely in the hands of the international President ought to be shared and distributed among all the members of the Council. A member-worker
- resident at Adyar ought to be able to approach any member of the General Council, Executive Committee of the Estate and/or the international President with problems and issues regarding the benefit and future of the TS. The international Headquarters of the TS was never meant to be the sole property of the international President, but that is how it has become over the years, and especially under the dictatorship of Mrs Radha
Burnier.
>
>It is time for us to learn from our mistakes. It is time for us to make a change for the better. It is time for us to ensure that the work of our Founders (both physical and superphysical) is not wasted because of our own inner inertia and resistance to what Krishnaji would have called the `urgency of change'. We have dallied for over 80 years, postponing the moment for change to happen; but change can happen only in the present, in the now. Were we to tarry longer, Life will give us no choice but to perish as Theosophists, as a Society. The crisis of over 80 years is now at its head and it is up to each of us, as members of the TS, to head it off and away from irreparable and irrevocable doom.
>
>Fraternally
>
>Preethi
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
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