Theos-Talk Archives (July 2009 Message tt00344)

Dear Mr. Ramadoss,

You stated it so many times: all this is caused by the big mistrust that exists. The question now is how do we win each others trust?  To win trust however, you'll need TWO sides, don't forget that. That simply means Mr. Ramadoss that you should stop making minced meat out of Mrs. Betty Bland's head, everytime she goes public with an article or a statement, even if you would disgree on some points, and that Mrs. Betty Bland on her turn should try to listen better to what you feel is necessary to communicate. Perhaps the two of you have more in common, than you both think! 

One step into the right direction would be to ask for publications of draft proposals for changes in the Rules & Regulations,  on one of the existing sites, in order to avoid confusion, but also to see to it that dubious characters cannot misuse such proposals for their own purposes.

Anyway I did my best, it's enough for one day.I wrote earlier let's not fight AGAINST something but FOR something, it makes a hell of a difference, yes? 

Roberta

 



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR <mkr777@...> wrote:
>
> Let me add my 0.02.
> 
> The issue of disenfranchisement is pure and simple. Firstly, ordinary
> members like me were taken by surprise when we learnt it. Due to the very
> serious nature of the issue, it does not matter to many, how and why it was
> discovered and broadcast on this maillist.  The reaction of many long time
> members and workers at Adyar and other National Centers was also surprise
> and shock. When even great state secrets are discovered by the news media,
> this discovery should surprise no one. It was dumb not to get the membership
> behind such drastic move before attempting it.
> .
> None of the quartet who moved the very clever plan has come out and in
> simple clear terms flatly stated that they are withdrawing the move and they
> will have nothing with it. Nor have they apologized to the members for their
> serious error in this matter. Until such time that we see unequivocal
> statements on this issue on theos-talk, it will continue to be discussed. We
> do not know what is currently cooking behind the scenes and do not know what
> trick will be discovered next. So vigilance of members is essential.
> .
> As for myself, I stand on my own feet and as I have, several times stated, I
> do not plan to take up any office or position in TS. My interest is simply
> to help the survival and growth of TS.
> 
> Messenger (MKR)
> 
> visit theosophy.net
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 1:15 PM, robertapimenta26 <
> robertapimenta26@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Dear Mr. Anand,
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes, I am still on the road.
> >
> > Let me try one more time, and do take some time to read and understand what
> > I am conveying. Basically we all agree, but I am trying to make a point, and
> > I am not getting through, so bear with me once more:
> >
> > I am sorry to say, but motives are very important Mr. Anand, because
> > motives explain the actions of an individual, do you understand that? The
> > person who leaked the proposal didn't do so to do you a favor, or to serve
> > the interests of the ordinary members of the TS Adyar. The individual
> > responsible for the leaking served a specific agenda, and that agenda Mr.
> > Anand is not your agenda, or mine, or the agenda of our friend Ramadoss.
> > Your names are not in that specific agenda, believe me, and they will never
> > be in it. That is the simple point I am trying to get at. Ponder on this for
> > some time:
> > Why was this proposal leaked?
> >
> > Your great discussion on another site about the ES revealed so much and
> > contributed so clearly to the basic understanding about how things function
> > at Adyar at the moment, that you surprise me with your statements about this
> > leaking. Please try to see how all is interconnected, and that the alledged
> > favor done by leaking a (draft) proposal wasn't a favor at all, but a very
> > succesful attempt to consolidate only, and to draw attention away from the
> > real issues, as Preethi also indicated a number of times. A hot issue was
> > exploited and used in a very smart way.
> >
> > I repeat: the proposal never made it to the GC meeting, and even if it had,
> > it would never have gotten the majority, so your reference to an unpoppposed
> > passage is not relevant. This proposal is no longer a valid subject to
> > discuss, the proposal doesn't exist, period!
> >
> > We need to put this behind us and look at the real issues.
> >
> >
> > Roberta
> >
> > In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Anand"
> > <AnandGholap@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Roberta,
> > > Members have right to know about the proposals being discussed,
> > especially those proposals which affect fundamental rights of members.
> > Although I may not always agree with the person, who leaked the document, I
> > don't think he did anything wrong by informing members about the proposal.
> > In fact, by letting members know it in advance, he prevented unopposed
> > passage of the proposal. So I think he did a good thing.
> > > Similarly, MKR's repetition was worth doing because of extreme importance
> > of it and because there was no definite information from HQ that proposal is
> > scrapped. Even now we know status of it only from ordinary members. No
> > authentic, official information has come out about the proposal. As MKR
> > said, members should not remain complacent, which can give them rude
> > surprise one day that their voting rights are gone.
> > > Does MKR prevent other important and constructive discussions? No. Any
> > number of important threads can run simultaneously.
> > > I hope you had nice time traveling in different countries.
> > > Best
> > > Anand Gholap
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "robertapimenta26" <robertapimenta26@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Mr. Anand and all,
> > > >
> > > > That unfortunate proposal is definitely from the table, over and out.
> > It was never on the table in the first place. I would suggest that all who
> > have doubts should get in touch with local officers or their General
> > Secretary or other representatives. The proposal also never made it to the
> > GC meeting last year. Read the minutes of that meeting, they are available
> > on various sites, there is no reference anywhere. See for yourselves. On my
> > current travel through Europe, I have met some members of the American
> > Section (Adyar) who told me even that those who initially drew up this
> > proposal, now are convinced that this was not a good initiative.
> > > >
> > > > As I tried to explain some time ago, the proposal was distributed among
> > all GC members according to the requirements of the official Rules &
> > Regulations. Any GC member is allowed to present a proposal, good or bad,
> > that is not relevant here, and that proposal is always subject to vote.
> > > >
> > > > Someone, who was not on the list of adressees, illegally intercepted
> > the document and used it, not by giving it to people Mr. Anand, but by
> > deliberately leaking it, thus causing obvious confusion and anger. This
> > person had great interest in the commotion that came about, and made very
> > smartly use of it. Must I remind you all, that such an action, using
> > confidential documents and or specific information, without permission of
> > the addressee, is a criminal offence?
> > > >
> > > > It was never my intention to riducule Mr.Ramadoss, but he is constantly
> > repeating certain things, which at this point in time are not relevant any
> > longer. I have no doubt that he is passionate and believes that he is
> > working for a good cause, but aren't we all each others teachers, yes? Ms.
> > Preethi is so right, he should use his verbal talents and other skills to
> > look into other directions and be more constructive rather than destructive.
> > Mr. Ramadoss, let's not fight against something, but FOR something
> > instead!!!
> > > >
> > > > For as far as the passing of the International Secretary is concerned,
> > I made some enquiries. It is the task of the adminstration in Adyar, that is
> > the International President to pass on this type of news to all concerned.
> > This didn't happen. Some General Secretaries found out only weeks later, by
> > coincidence, othere didn't know anything until....... they read the news on
> > this blessed site, so they are outraged. Again draw your own conclusions!!
> > > >
> > > > Roberta
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Anand" <AnandGholap@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear MKR, Preethi and All,
> > > > > Information about disenfranchisement proposal by the quartet was
> > given to people by an officer in Adyar. As proposal was disastrous, many
> > serious students, including MKR, protested. MKR was right in repeatedly
> > opposing the proposal. Not many people here care about what Adyar people
> > say. It does not matter whether they call somebody parrot, cat, dog or
> > chimpanzee. It is important that what a person writes is honest opinion and
> > he should be truthful.
> > > > > It was certain that disenfranchisement proposal was there. But people
> > don't know what happened to it later. They also don't know for sure whether
> > the proposal is discarded permanently, or it is still there and come again
> > and do great damage to the TS. So, unless there is assurance from Adyar HQ
> > that proposal is discarded, how can members remain in peace? HQ has not
> > given any information about the disastrous proposal and it is quite
> > understandable that serious members like MKR feel disturbed and it is right
> > to oppose it until clear information comes out about what is going on.
> > > > > Roberta is generally balanced and honest in what she says. It is not
> > clear for which messages of MKR she ridiculed him. I don't think MKR is
> > against improvements. He is against disenfranchisement and there he is
> > right.
> > > > > I think improvements in constitution are required, but I am against
> > disenfranchisement.
> > > > > Perhaps the proposal of disfranchisement was discarded due to strong
> > opposition from serious members like MKR. There is nothing wrong in his
> > telling about dangers of disenfranchisement again and again. And if a person
> > does right thing, he should not care what others say.
> > > > > Best
> > > > > Anand Gholap
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > preethi muthiah <seeker_preethi@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MKR,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would like to mention some things to you, which I think i
> > remember mentioning before as well. Why don't you rout your questions and
> > suggestions to Adyar and see if they will receive them?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And respond in kind to you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, since you keep mentioning the "ultra secret attempt to
> > disenfranchise the members from voting in a President", i need to bring it
> > to your attention that this is no longer a secret -- partly thanks to your
> > repeated mention of the topic, so using words like ultra secret are no
> > longer viable; and sorry to say so, they make you look like a parrot or a
> > tape recorder that has something wrong with it and got stuck on a part of
> > the entire message, such that it keeps repeating the same phrase again and
> > again and again. Time to move forward don't you think? Sorry if i sound rude
> > here, but i don't mean to. Why don't you see that attempt, even if it were
> > the way you make it out to be, as a way to root out a Corrupt and Political
> > President from her chair so that there can be a healthy and spiritual future
> > for Adyar and the TS worldwide?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And MKR, i might have mentioned this earlier, but even if i haven't
> > done so, i do now. Everyone in the GC, especially has a right to propose
> > something they think is helpful to ease a situation. The situation at Adyar
> > is deplorable. You might want to just look at the horrible things like
> > plagiarism, corruption, gossip, scandal, and such pervading the atmosphere
> > at Adyar today to know that any proposal to make a change ought to be
> > welcomed, considered and, as in the case of the ultra secret attempt
> > discarded as being non-viable. Have you, instead of harping on and on about
> > that attempt, a viable proposal to make about how to deal with the
> > deplorable materialistic situation at Adyar and the TS worldwide? If you do,
> > do please mention it here and in other sites of the TS for General
> > Secretaries to consider as possible solutions to save Adyar and the TS
> > worldwide.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that would be a very good thing to do, MKR, seriously. Why
> > don't you use your verbal talents to finding and proposing healthy solutions
> > rather than picking on proposals that have been considered and discarded
> > already?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fraternally,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Preethi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Tue, 21/7/09, MKR <mkr777@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: MKR <mkr777@>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: DR. C V Agrawal
> > > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, 21 July, 2009, 11:03 AM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is interesting and it is indeed very very sad.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I did not know that is how things are done in Adyar. When was the
> > policy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > started? It would be interesting for historians to find out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When an important key international officer of TS and especially
> > someone who
> > > > > >
> > > > > > was a dedicated long term member passes away, I think it is a basic
> > courtesy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > to let the world know about it, not weeks or months after the event
> > in this
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Internet age. Also, in this part of the world no one reads the
> > Adyar
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Newsletter. Today such notifications can be done for free.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Death of a dedicated member should not be taken as a simple routine
> > event in
> > > > > >
> > > > > > anyone's life. To get a true perspective, all one has to do is to
> > read the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > early theosophical history.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When Olcott passed away, the Inner Founders took the unusual step
> > of
> > > > > >
> > > > > > personally showing up at his death bed to convey their gratitude
> > for the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dedication and hard work he did for the theosophical movement. This
> > has to
> > > > > >
> > > > > > be viewed in the light of the fact that after the 1900 letter, we
> > have never
> > > > > >
> > > > > > heard from any of them till today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In today's world, with Internet, information can be distributed at
> > no cost
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and also immediately. Is it not also in the best interests of the
> > TS for
> > > > > >
> > > > > > keeping members updated on all important events taking place in
> > Adyar and
> > > > > >
> > > > > > other National Centers? Such frequent contact with members will
> > foster to
> > > > > >
> > > > > > bring members together. It is the disconnect and secrecy of
> > operations that
> > > > > >
> > > > > > led to the problems starting with last year's election and the
> > followup.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This environment is not helpful for the health and future of the
> > TS.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Everyone on this list knows that if Internet was not there, we will
> > today
> > > > > >
> > > > > > have a very different TS especially after the last GC meeting where
> > the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ultra Secret disenfranchisement move would have been approved and
> > > > > >
> > > > > > implemented with some of the GC members seizing the TS presidency.
> > Let us be
> > > > > >
> > > > > > grateful for the Internet for its role in protecting TS and let us
> > make use
> > > > > >
> > > > > > of it in establishing and maintaining continuous contact with
> > members around
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the world.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The incident of not quickly reporting the death of Dr. Agarwal is a
> > black
> > > > > >
> > > > > > eye which will not be forgotten by many members for a long time to
> > come.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MKR aka Messenger
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > visit www.theosophy. net
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 11:56 PM, preethi muthiah
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <seeker_preethi@ yahoo.com>wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > MKR,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > We generally don't report such things as death etc. on the local
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Newspapers.. I guess there will be a writeup about Dr Agarwal in
> > the next
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > issue of the Adyar Newsletter, whenever that is due and manages
> > to come out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Helen Jamieson has quite a job getting it out, but of course now
> > she has
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > all-knowing Pedro Oliveira to help her out. So i guess you can
> > wait for the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ANL issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Preethi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- On Mon, 20/7/09, MKR <mkr777@gmail. com <mkr777%40gmail.
> > com>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: MKR <mkr777@gmail. com <mkr777%40gmail. com>>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: DR. C V Agrawal
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Monday, 20 July, 2009, 7:13 AM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have just posted a news item both here and at www.theosophy.
> > net. In
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > India, both spellings of Agarwal is interchangeable as you can
> > find in wiki
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > and that is how his name got spelled differently by me. In the
> > Adyar
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > website
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > his name is still shown as the Secretary. If a newsrelease had
> > been issued
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > by TS, the local media would have reported it. I did not find any
> > in
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > chennai
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > when I googled the leading local daily newspaper.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > MKR aka Messenger
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > www.theosophy. net
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > n Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 2:20 PM, sampsakuukasjarvi <
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > sampsakuukasjarvi@ yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Agarwal, not Agrawal. This is sad news. He was International
> > Secretary
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > only a few months, since March, after Keith Fisher. Now I
> > notice that his
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > name doesn't appear as International Secretary in the latest
> > issue of the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Theosophist; there doesn't appear any name.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How is it possible that the Adyar headquarters doesn't announce
> > this kind
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > of event? In the International Board of the Theosophical
> > Society (Adyar),
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > International Secretary belongs to the four most important
> > members. There
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > still is not even a news section on the Adyar web site!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MKR: I don't see any news on this on www.theosophy. net.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sampsa
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups.
> > com>, MKR
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <mkr777@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I just learnt that Dr. C V Agrawal, a long time theosophist
> > recently
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > passed
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > away. He was a very dedicated member and was the General
> > Secretary of
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Indian Section for several years. After retirement as a
> > Professor in
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Varanasi, he settled down at Adyar and continued to work for
> > TS till he
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > passed away. Most recently he was the International
> > Secretary. All of
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > us
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > should be grateful for his long and dedicated service to
> > theosophy and
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Theosophical Society.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > MKR
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Visit www.theosophy. net
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > See the Web&#39;s breaking stories, chosen by people like you.
> > Check out
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Buzz. http://in.buzz. yahoo.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! recommends that you upgrade to the new and safer Internet
> > Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>