Theos-Talk Archives (July 2009 Message tt00054)

Anand, I think the question you ask requires us to bring all our knowledge of theosophy to focus on this subject.  What I am thinking of is the two pillars, mercy and justice, moral and legal, the heart and the lower mind.  Always two - do we take the correspondence further and claim a Society such as theosophy needs 2 leaders, a moral leader and a legal leader?  This is what I am asking.

I agree that we do not need an ES that demands obedience.  Take that clause out all together.  You are now left with no obedience "without cavil or delay".  In this type of a School where the student practices morality according to theosophical doctrines, we don't have to call it an ES, but rather a school of practical theosophy, so in this type of school can moral attributes be developed that would be of benefit to the Society?  Can we help to develop strong moral leadership.  Is this not the complaint we have about our current leadership?  Has this whole debate not stemmed from a concern over the integrity of that leadership?  Clearly, what we are currently doing is not the answer.  How do we change it?  Maybe this is not the answer, if not how do we address morality in a Society that is all about morality?

Robert Bruce

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand" <AnandGholap@...> wrote:
>
> It is true that organization helps individuals students of Theosophy. I am thinking whether ES objects can be achieved through TS, which is an organization. 
> While TS gives freedom of thought and implied freedom of action, ES demands obedience "without cavil or delay". While TS does not impose any ideas on members, ES demands faith in the Outer Head and faith in all actions, policies and ideas of that ES head. Aren't these contradictory?
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robert_b_macd" <robert.b.macdonald@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Anand,
> > 
> > Again your points are well taken.  I don't deny that all this can be done by a serious student with the help of others.  I would encourage such a course for those with the ability and inclination to do so.
> > 
> > What my point in looking at this is to discuss whether the Society should have a legal power and a moral power.  Could such a power arrangement reduce some of the abuse of power that some seem to think now exists.
> > 
> > Organizations come into existence to help those wishing to do a certain kind of work, the organization gives structure to that work.  Without the structure it is difficult to get things done.  Self culture is also difficult as oftentimes we do not have the appropriate habbits when we enter into such an endeavour.  What do we do next? What is important and what is not?  I feel tired today, can I take the day off?  This is where an organization helps.  The ES should be trying to help people make themselves into moral adepts, the organization of the ES should simply be a tool for these people.
> > 
> > Robert Bruce
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand" <AnandGholap@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robert_b_macd" <robert.b.macdonald@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The ES would be a body of students who want to study the doctrine of the founders at a deeper level and who want to put the moral aspect of those teachings, as detailed in the pledge, into practice.  It would be a life-long study.  I think that all members should be members of the TS and the ES >should have no official standing with the TS.  
> > > >
> > > 
> > > For the deep study of Theosophy and putting in practice moral aspect, you don't need the Esoteric School. Members of TS, whoever want, can do it. If anybody wants consultation, he can always ask questions to any serious members or officers in TS lodge. There is no need of separate ES for this purpose.
> > >  If somebody wants to make a pledge to follow Masters or to work for Theosophy, he can do it in his own heart or write on paper and keep that paper with himself. 
> > > 
> > > Please tell your e-mail address. I had sent e-mail to  you, which perhaps you did not get.
> > > Best
> > > Anand Gholap
> > >
> >
>