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Re: Theos-World Re: The Esoteric School Lobby

Jun 22, 2009 08:02 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen


Anand wrote:
"But opposition does not change the system because TS-ES-Masonry structure enables Outer Head to control the whole system almost autocratically. "

Now, that is quite interesting.
And I take it, that H. P. Blavatsky was not responsible for this, and that Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeater was the main supporters of this system.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anand 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:35 PM
  Subject: Theos-World Re: The Esoteric School Lobby





  Dear Roberta,
  The Indian people are not afraid of challenging authorities at any level, whether it is small or big. If people don't fear government, do you think they will fear somebody else? Generally Indian people oppose freely at every level, when they want to oppose. I would say that they enjoy such freedom more than many other countries. 
  Perhaps you are suggesting that Indians don't oppose TS system because, according to you Indians don't correct authorities. 
  I think it is not reluctance to correct the system, neither is it obedience. Indian members do oppose TS system. But opposition does not change the system because TS-ES-Masonry structure enables Outer Head to control the whole system almost autocratically. So opposition from individual members can not change anything. This is what Annie Besant was talking about, the passages of which I copied here earlier.
  I think permanent solution could be that all three offices be made separate. That means TS President, ES head and Masonry head should be compulsorily made separate. Another thing that can be done is no person should be allowed to remain President of TS for more than two terms, each of five years. 
  I think current TS problems are caused because constitution is not perfect. However we will have to think a lot before new constitution is passed. At present I am only doing analysis and exploring different alternatives. It will take some time to arrive at conclusions.

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robertapimenta26" <robertapimenta26@...> wrote:
  >
  > Will not wait for your reply, with your kind permission I respond hereby.
  > 
  > I hope you'll let me say this:
  > 
  > In your reaction, for the bigger part refer to your political system. You state, and you do so very correctly, that often a ruling party in India was challenged. So, the conclusion here is that Indians, generally speaking, do not fear to oppose governments. I could add, that in this context, the largest democracy in the world, apart from the painful corruption, does function. May I say Mr. Anand, that here you talk about a large scale institution? 
  > 
  > But I was referring to smaller scale settings, businesses as I worked for in India, organizations and families. In these settings, things work out differently, you know that, I know that, and I witnessed this for many years. 
  > 
  > The TS is a smaller scale setting: first of all there is a 'family', there is a hierarchy, and there are different bodies that seem to compete, or in confict with each other. 
  > 
  > Anyway, I hope you'll understand my points, and Mr. Anand, please go after the facts I would say, you do very well!!
  > 
  > Roberta
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robertapimenta26" <robertapimenta26@> wrote:
  > >
  > > Mr. Anand,
  > > 
  > > Could it be that perhaps you react to a message not meant for you? I do appreciate your comments though, but you quote from a message I sent to Mr. Ramadoss. 
  > > 
  > > Please confirm, and after that I will repond. Probably Mr. Ramadoss will come with similar remarks. So we can do two in one....
  > > 
  > > Roberta
  > > 
  > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand" <AnandGholap@> wrote:
  > > >
  > > > Dear Roberta,
  > > > If you read Blavatsky's ES pledge, there is a threat of expulsion if command of the Outer Head are not obeyed. So, it is most likely that members of ES keep silence because they don't want to be expelled from ES, masonry etc. Most officers in TS are also members of ES. That should show why there is silent obedience.
  > > > You wrote "You are from beautiful India yourself, and as I wrote to you some time ago, I have lived there too! So you, out of all people, should know that in your culture and tradition, people find it extremely difficult to come out ito the open, to step forward, in particular when it is about questioning or correcting an authority. Hierarchies (there is another word for that system) are still very much installed in Indian society"
  > > > I don't think this observation is correct. In India, there were very few times when national government could survive full term. Here elected party in parliament is supposed to rule for 5 years. But most governments were made to fall in shorter than that time. That means people are not afraid of challenging ruling party. Here people don't fear laws, government and authorities as much as people fear in other countries. There has always been intense criticism of ruling parties, governments in all media. So, I would say that people in India don't fear to challenge government or authorities.
  > > > They have elected dynasties many times. But it is not because of fear, it is just their preference. 
  > > > In TS silence and obedience exist because most officers in TS are in ES and masonry. It appears that they fear expulsion from ES and that might be the reason why officers whether in India or abroad don't challenge the President. 
  > > > In last year's election John Algeo challenged Mrs. Burnier, but it was exceptional case. 
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robertapimenta26" <robertapimenta26@> wrote:
  > > > >
  > > > > Dear Mr. Ramadoss,
  > > > > 
  > > > > You are from beautiful India yourself, and as I wrote to you some time ago, I have lived there too! So you, out of all people, should know that in your culture and tradition, people find it extremely difficult to come out ito the open, to step forward, in particular when it is about questioning or correcting an authority. Hierarchies (there is another word for that system) are still very much installed in Indian society, I am sure you're aware of that. So it is not surprising some are afraid, and hide behind anonimity.
  > > > > 
  > > > > Concerning Mr. Keith Fisher from Australia, Mr Ramadoss, I only wished you were a little more prudent. I fully agree with you, he has been forthright, Aussies would refer to him as ' a fair dinkum bloke', but have you really and thoroughly studied his clarifications? Have you really...? 
  > > > > 
  > > > > Roberta
  > > > > 
  > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR <mkr777@> wrote:
  > > > > >
  > > > > > Anton:
  > > > > > .
  > > > > > I the past, Keith has been forthright and the clarifications he has been
  > > > > > providing were accurate and I have no reason to doubt that his clarification
  > > > > > on this issue is not true. Also, we are dealing with a statement from an
  > > > > > anonymous visitor, and I wonder why anyone should hide in anonymity when
  > > > > > they are dealing with truth.
  > > > > > .
  > > > > > I do not know if you will get a response from Sundaram. It is not unusual
  > > > > > for even dues paying members not getting replies from their own elected
  > > > > > national leaders.
  > > > > > .
  > > > > > In another conversation, you mentioned that in Slovenia your TS membership
  > > > > > was deleted because you did not pay the dues. It might help if rejoin
  > > > > > and become a dues paying member of TS as it would give you better standing
  > > > > > in our ongoing discussions relating to TS-Adyar matters.
  > > > > > .
  > > > > > MKR
  > > > > > .
  > > > > > Visit www.theosophy.net
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > On 6/20/09, Anton Rozman <anton_rozman@> wrote:
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > > Dear Ramadoss,
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > > I think it is premature to make any conclusions. At this point we have just
  > > > > > > two conflicting statements regarding the exact wording in the original
  > > > > > > document - an embarrassing situation by itself. Let's see if I will get a
  > > > > > > reply or/and a copy of the document from Mr. S. Sundaram.
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > > Best regards,
  > > > > > > Anton
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, MKR
  > > > > > > <mkr777@> wrote:
  > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > At least the Indian Section formally adopted a resolution and reported
  > > > > > > it.
  > > > > > > > -
  > > > > > > > I have not seen any such in the American Section. I learnt of the
  > > > > > > > nominations only when I received the electioneering letter from Betty
  > > > > > > > alleging that Radha is sick and supporting voting for John.
  > > > > > > > -
  > > > > > > > May be American Section does the nomination differently.
  > > > > > > > -
  > > > > > > > Any one wants to clear the mystery.
  > > > > > > > -
  > > > > > > > MKR
  > > > > > > > -
  > > > > > > > Visit www.theosophy.net
  > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 12:11 PM, keith_fisher@
  > > > > > > > <exsecy@>wrote:
  > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > One word has been altered from the original text.
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > I can confirm that the actual wording in the report was as follows:
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > "Council unanimously resolved that the Indian Section will
  > > > > > > > > nominate Mrs. Radha Burnier for the International President
  > > > > > > > > of the Theosophical Society for the next term of 7 years."
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > It is normal procedure for each General Secretary to consult
  > > > > > > > > with the National Council Members in their own country on
  > > > > > > > > who should be nominated for President
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > Each General Secretary is allowed to make three nominations.
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > Best wishes
  > > > > > > > > Keith
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
  > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Anand"
  > > > > > > > > <AnandGholap@> wrote:
  > > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
  > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Anton
  > > > > > > > > Rozman" <anton_rozman@> wrote:
  > > > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends,
  > > > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > > > It seems that this message to vote Radha Burnier was extended also
  > > > > > > to
  > > > > > > > > the rest of membership at least in one case as an anonymous visitor of
  > > > > > > my
  > > > > > > > > web site sent me a notice that in the latest Annual Report of the
  > > > > > > Indian
  > > > > > > > > Section the General Secretary reported that "Council unanimously
  > > > > > > resolved
  > > > > > > > > that the Indian Section will support Mrs. Radha Burnier for the
  > > > > > > > > International President of the Theosophical Society for the next term
  > > > > > > of 7
  > > > > > > > > years."
  > > > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > > > Till now I wasn't able to get confirmation of the correctness of
  > > > > > > this
  > > > > > > > > passage from some other source therefore I wonder if there is anyone on
  > > > > > > this
  > > > > > > > > list who can do this for us.
  > > > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > > > This annual report has not reached me.
  > > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > >
  > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > > > > > > >
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > > 
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > > > > >
  > > > >
  > > >
  > >
  >



  

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