Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
May 13, 2009 09:26 PM
by Drpsionic
No, I passed. The World Teacher begins his work after the 75 year and I
joined the TS in 1978.
Chuck the Heretic
In a message dated 5/13/2009 7:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
silva_cass@yahoo.com writes:
Then you failed the world teacher test!
Cass
________________________________
From: "_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) "
<_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) >
To: _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com)
Sent: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 2:39:13 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
1949
Chuck the Heretic
In a message dated 5/12/2009 6:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:
What year were you born????? No falsifying the dates now!!
Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: "_Drpsionic@From: "_Drpsionic@<WBR>aFrom: "_Drps
<_Drpsionic@_Drpsionic@<WBR>aol. Drp_ (m_Drpsionic>
To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-To: _theos-talk@ yahoog
Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:37:23 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
Actually all us World Teachers have been inveterate pranksters come to
give
the world laughing gas for the soul.
Chuck the Heretic
In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:
lol. I don't expect they would all be world saviours - just messengers
Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: "_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- From: "_Augoeides-
2
<_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- _Augoeides- 222@Au>
To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ ya
Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
Cass,
If a "world teacher" came at the end of every century in the form
characterized we would have had 20 more Jesus's all lined up in serial
order as
"World Saviors" a label that I think did have some existance for a while
during Besant - Leadbeater era. I never have seen any such thing in my
coursing
of histirical records. Who has the list?
Regards,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cass Silva" <silva_cass@ silva_cass>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
As you say K did not repudiate the WT project what he
repudiated was his part in the project. I am not surprised that JK
initially thought of himself as the new World Teacher operating out of
Adyar - if
he had run with that idea he would have been glorified and sanctified by
theosophists - I admire and respect him for walking away and believe that
his
conscience
would not allow him to take on a role he knew he was not fated for.
If we are to rely on what Blavatsky gave us on a coming teacher we must
also rely on her timeline.
One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of
this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB. Blavatsky
underlined
her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY CENTURY there will
come......
One could argue then that Krishnamurti was their choice (AB/CWL)for next
world teacher and not necessarily the man predestined to take on this
role.
Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the theosophical society survived it
would be the vehicle for the next
world teacher.
Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time can show." (12) came back
to haunt her!
>From a dugpa's point of view what better way to fragment the TS than by
introducing a 10 year old vagrant to the idea that he was born to be the
next
world teacher. Did they realise that that they and Leadbeater had picked
the wrong candidate or was he the perfect candidate for a means to
disenfranchise the TS? They succeeded - the TS is no longer the fortress
of truth as
it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated into a mish mash of psuedo religious
and psuedo theosophical ideas.
One must assume that if a world teacher comes at the end of every century
- that he is now alive and
kicking - and one can assume also that the TS has failed as he is not
represented as a theosophist.
Cheers Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Govert Schuller < schuller@alpheus. org >
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM
Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
Dear Cass,
I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT project.
He did not. He gave it his own interpretation.
There might be satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in
the idea that K completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/
manglings
to the original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms are
an additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al position.
I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled the project
even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as the intended
instruments for the coming teacher.
K said: "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar to be meant for the
teaching. The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is
destroyed."
I analyzed the statement in my paper on K, tying it back to HPB's prophecy
of the 'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full analysis below)
Govert
=====
Reinforcing this view is an interesting, and at first sight puzzling,
remark Krishnamurti made about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society
during
an equally interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends, Radha
Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible candidacy
for the
presidency of the Theosophical Society. "Mrs.Besant intended the land at
Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching.
The
Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9)
This remark contains many assumptions and finds its proper context in
Besant's understanding of the mission of the Theosophical Society and the
role of
Krishnamurti therein. Annie Besant thought she was fulfilling a mission of
the Theosophical Society, which was not stated as one of its official
objectives, but was given to it by Helena P. Blavatsky--one of the
founders of
the Theosophical Society and the society's main source of ideas--when
she, at the close of her life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of
Truth" for the later part of the twentieth century. The mission of the
Theosophical Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for
this
"new leader" and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his
arrival the Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove the
"merely
mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path." Indicating
the possibility of a glorious long-term goal of this plan, she states that
if "the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its
mission...earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century." (10) When
Besant was
challenged about her involvement in the Order of the Star and her speaking
of
"the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming Teacher," (11) she defended
herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's view about the future
mission of
the Theosophical Society: "My crime is that I share it, and do what
my poor powers permit in preparing the minds of men for that coming."
Besant wrote that the only difference between herself and Blavatsky
regarding
the coming of "the next great Teacher" was that "she put that event
perhaps
half a century later than I do. Which of us is right only time can show."
(12)
I think it is reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's and
Besant's views were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative years.
He might even have read Blavatsky's statement referred to above. If so,
this
might provide the ground to put Krishnamurti' s remark in historical
perspective, and to explain the underlying structural similarity between
his
remark and Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading
of
Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant [and
Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the land at Adyar [the
Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for the teaching [for
the
teacher]. The Theosophical Society has failed [did not to cooperate], the
original purpose [the mission of the Theosophical Society to herald and
aid
the teacher] is destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of this
digression is to show that implicit in this remark is the self-perception
of Krishnamurti as the teacher, who was expected and did come, but found
the Theosophical Society not cooperative.
=====
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
Messiah Craze?
Quite right Govert, the TS was born in chaos and continues on this same
path. HPB told us that her mission was to bring the ancient truths to the
western world and to attempt to stem the spiritual materialism promulgated
by the
roman church and its offshoots.
As this was addressed to a western audience, it would require western
spokespeople
to transmit this knowledge - once the knowledge was given it then appeared
that
Sinnett and others thought they were more knowledgeable than their
teachers. I
have heard that the more one learns the stronger the ego becomes - and
this is one
of the challenges or tests of a chela.
HPB unlike Sinnett et al she took those teachings to heart and never
waivered or
challenged what was given to her by those she considered far more
knowledgeable
than herself on both spiritual and social questions.
Her dissention was mainly against outsiders - but since her demise the
dissention
has come from insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for
their
own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead.
AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga and
would
have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before a million or so years
- so
either they promoted Krishnamurti as a minor avatar they had no reason to
claim
a messiah state for him. As the master said, AB was blinded by her own
imagination
and CWL was just the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into
reality. JK, himself,
recognized this as nonsense and left their mayavic dreams to its founders.
I am not convinced that Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but
perhaps
was overshadowed by his own daimon.?
Cass
Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
Messiah Craze?
Cass,
You say the TS was already in a state of confusion when taken over by AB &
CWL or because of them?
The outcome of one's speculations about the motives of AB & CWL for doing
the WT project all depend on how one would regard the project in the first
place. If you don't think it was genuine, then indeed you have to wonder
why they were doing it. If you think it was genuine, then a whole
different
view of their motivations is possible.
BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the beginning in a state of
confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis.
Govert
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
Messiah Craze?
I disagree Govert, the TS was in a state of confusion when taken over
by Besant and Leadbeater, I believe, they believed, that a World Teacher
would bring the TS back to stability and would increase membership.
She was ready to leave the TS and join Krishnamurti - what does that
tell us?
I was amused by AB turning the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a
university education - by doing this she exposed him to a world and an
awareness of a world outside of Adyar. I don't think he liked the suits
as he got out of them as quickly as he could. lol
Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
Messiah Craze?
Daniel,
The WT project in my view was genuine, but had some 'messiah craze'
elements, inevitably so given the state of the human psyche. One of the
'craze'
elements was indeed the 'apostle affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed
in. It came from Arundale's 'crazed' brain.
To reason from a few 'craze' elements to the conclusion that it was only
'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from the belief that the project was
genuine and that therefore all elements were genuine.
HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to be extremely cautious about
such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it to a certain extent. In the end
it was K who failed and dragged the TS into a state of confusion and shock
it has not yet overcome.
Govert
----- Original Message -----
From: danielhcaldwell
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:21 AM
Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
Messiah Craze?
Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze?
++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +
Annie Besant at her most eloquent best:
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
"And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message,
and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great
Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is
definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.
His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon.
Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their
chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only
the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship...
The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C.
Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini
Arundale....
I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our
Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle
of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as
to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his
crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King.
Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with
Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do
well, for so I am.'
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
Daniel
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