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Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

May 13, 2009 09:26 PM
by Drpsionic


No, I passed.  The World Teacher begins his work after the 75 year and  I 
joined the TS in 1978.
 
Chuck the Heretic
 
 
In a message dated 5/13/2009 7:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
silva_cass@yahoo.com writes:

 
 


Then you failed the world teacher  test!

Cass

________________________________
From:  "_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) " 
<_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) >
To: _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com) 
Sent:  Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 2:39:13 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah  claims Adyar

1949

Chuck the Heretic

In a message dated  5/12/2009 6:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
silva_cass@yahoo. com  writes:

What year were you born????? No falsifying the dates  now!!
Cass

____________ _________ _________ __
From:  "_Drpsionic@From:  "_Drpsionic@<WBR>aFrom:  "_Drps
<_Drpsionic@_Drpsionic@<WBR>aol. Drp_ (m_Drpsionic>
To:  _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-To:  _theos-talk@ yahoog
Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:37:23 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the  Messiah claims Adyar

Actually all us World Teachers have been  inveterate pranksters come to 
give 
the world laughing gas for the  soul.

Chuck the Heretic

In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26  P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:

lol. I  don't expect they would all be world saviours - just  messengers
Cass

____________ _________ _________ __
From:  "_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- From: "_Augoeides- 
 2
<_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- _Augoeides-  222@Au>
To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To:  _theos-talk@ ya
Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM
Subject: Re:  Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

Cass, 
If a "world teacher"  came at the end of every century in the form 
characterized we would have  had 20 more Jesus's all lined up in serial 
order as 
"World Saviors" a  label that I think did have some existance for a while 
during Besant -  Leadbeater era. I never have seen any such thing in my 
coursing 
of  histirical records. Who has the list? 

Regards, 
John 
-----  Original Message ----- 
From: "Cass Silva" <silva_cass@ silva_cass>  
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM  GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims  Adyar 

As you say K did not repudiate the WT project what he  
repudiated was his part in the project. I am not surprised that JK  
initially thought of himself as the new World Teacher operating out of  
Adyar - if 
he had run with that idea he would have been glorified and  sanctified by 
theosophists - I admire and respect him for walking away and  believe that 
his 
conscience 
would not allow him to take on a role  he knew he was not fated for. 

If we are to rely on what Blavatsky gave  us on a coming teacher we must 
also rely on her timeline. 

One  could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of 
this  timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB. Blavatsky 
underlined  
her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY CENTURY there will  
come...... 

One could argue then that Krishnamurti was their choice  (AB/CWL)for next 
world teacher and not necessarily the man predestined to  take on this 
role. 

Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the  theosophical society survived it 
would be the vehicle for the next  
world teacher. 

Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time  can show." (12) came back 
to haunt her! 

>From a dugpa's point of  view what better way to fragment the TS than by 
introducing a 10 year old  vagrant to the idea that he was born to be the 
next 
world teacher. Did  they realise that that they and Leadbeater had picked 
the wrong candidate  or was he the perfect candidate for a means to 
disenfranchise the TS? They  succeeded - the TS is no longer the fortress 
of truth as 
it was in  1800 -but has disintegrated into a mish mash of psuedo religious 
and  psuedo theosophical ideas. 

One must assume that if a world teacher  comes at the end of every century 
- that he is now alive and 
kicking -  and one can assume also that the TS has failed as he is not 
represented as  a theosophist. 

Cheers Cass 

____________ _________ _________ __  
From: Govert Schuller < schuller@alpheus. org > 
To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM  
Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 

Dear Cass,  

I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT project.  

He did not. He gave it his own interpretation. 

There might be  satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in 
the idea that K  completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/ 
manglings 
to the  original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms are 
an  additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al position.  

I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled the project  
even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as the intended  
instruments for the coming teacher. 

K said: "Mrs.Besant intended  the land at Adyar to be meant for the 
teaching. The Theosophical Society  has failed, the original purpose is 
destroyed." 

I analyzed the  statement in my paper on K, tying it back to HPB's prophecy 
of the  'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full analysis below) 

Govert 

=====  
Reinforcing this view is an interesting, and at first sight puzzling,  
remark Krishnamurti made about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society  
during 
an equally interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends,  Radha 
Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible  candidacy 
for the 
presidency of the Theosophical Society. "Mrs.Besant  intended the land at 
Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be  meant for the teaching. 
The 
Theosophical Society has failed, the  original purpose is destroyed." (9) 
This remark contains many assumptions  and finds its proper context in 
Besant's understanding of the mission of  the Theosophical Society and the 
role of 
Krishnamurti therein. Annie  Besant thought she was fulfilling a mission of 
the Theosophical Society,  which was not stated as one of its official 
objectives, but was given to  it by Helena P. Blavatsky--one of the 
founders of 
the Theosophical  Society and the society's main source of ideas--when 
she, at the close of  her life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of 
Truth" for the later  part of the twentieth century. The mission of the 
Theosophical Society,  according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for 
this 
"new leader"  and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his 
arrival the  Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove the 
"merely  
mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path." Indicating  
the possibility of a glorious long-term goal of this plan, she states that  
if "the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its  
mission...earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century." (10) When  
Besant was 
challenged about her involvement in the Order of the Star  and her speaking 
of 
"the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming  Teacher," (11) she defended 
herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's  view about the future 
mission of 
the Theosophical Society: "My crime  is that I share it, and do what 
my poor powers permit in preparing the  minds of men for that coming." 
Besant wrote that the only difference  between herself and Blavatsky 
regarding 
the coming of "the next great  Teacher" was that "she put that event 
perhaps 
half a century later  than I do. Which of us is right only time can show." 
(12) 

I think  it is reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's and 
Besant's  views were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative years. 
He might  even have read Blavatsky's statement referred to above. If so, 
this  
might provide the ground to put Krishnamurti' s remark in historical  
perspective, and to explain the underlying structural similarity between  
his 
remark and Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed  reading 
of 
Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following:  "Mrs.Besant [and 
Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the  land at Adyar [the 
Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for  the teaching [for 
the 
teacher]. The Theosophical Society has failed  [did not to cooperate], the 
original purpose [the mission of the  Theosophical Society to herald and 
aid 
the teacher] is destroyed [has  not been fulfilled]." The point of this 
digression is to show that  implicit in this remark is the self-perception 
of Krishnamurti as the  teacher, who was expected and did come, but found 
the Theosophical Society  not cooperative. 

===== 

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009  10:13 PM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this  Part of the 
Messiah Craze? 

Quite right Govert, the TS was born in  chaos and continues on this same 
path. HPB told us that her mission was to  bring the ancient truths to the 
western world and to attempt to stem the  spiritual materialism promulgated 
by the 
roman church and its  offshoots. 

As this was addressed to a western audience, it would  require western 
spokespeople 
to transmit this knowledge - once the  knowledge was given it then appeared 
that 
Sinnett and others thought  they were more knowledgeable than their 
teachers. I 
have heard that  the more one learns the stronger the ego becomes - and 
this is one 
of  the challenges or tests of a chela. 

HPB unlike Sinnett et al she took  those teachings to heart and never 
waivered or 
challenged what was  given to her by those she considered far more 
knowledgeable 
than  herself on both spiritual and social questions. 

Her dissention was  mainly against outsiders - but since her demise the 
dissention 
has  come from insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for 
their  
own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead.  

AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga  and 
would 
have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before a  million or so years 
- so 
either they promoted Krishnamurti as a minor  avatar they had no reason to 
claim 
a messiah state for him. As the  master said, AB was blinded by her own 
imagination 
and CWL was just  the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into 
reality. JK, himself,  
recognized this as nonsense and left their mayavic dreams to its founders.  

I am not convinced that Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but  
perhaps 
was overshadowed by his own daimon.? 

Cass 

Cass  

____________ _________ _________ __ 
From: Govert Schuller  <schuller@alpheus. org> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent:  Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on  Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 
Messiah Craze? 

Cass, 

You  say the TS was already in a state of confusion when taken over by AB & 
 

CWL or because of them? 

The outcome of one's speculations  about the motives of AB & CWL for doing 
the WT project all depend on  how one would regard the project in the first 
place. If you don't think it  was genuine, then indeed you have to wonder 
why they were doing it. If you  think it was genuine, then a whole 
different 
view of their motivations  is possible. 

BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the  beginning in a state of 
confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis.  

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva  
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 8:59 PM  
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  
Messiah Craze? 

I disagree Govert, the TS was in a state of  confusion when taken over 
by Besant and Leadbeater, I believe, they  believed, that a World Teacher 
would bring the TS back to stability and  would increase membership. 
She was ready to leave the TS and join  Krishnamurti - what does that 
tell us? 

I was amused by AB turning  the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a 
university education - by doing  this she exposed him to a world and an 
awareness of a world outside of  Adyar. I don't think he liked the suits 
as he got out of them as quickly  as he could. lol 

Cass 

____________ _________ _________ __  
From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org> 
To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM  
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  
Messiah Craze? 

Daniel, 

The WT project in my view was  genuine, but had some 'messiah craze' 
elements, inevitably so given the  state of the human psyche. One of the 
'craze' 
elements was indeed the  'apostle affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed 
in. It came from  Arundale's 'crazed' brain. 

To reason from a few 'craze' elements to  the conclusion that it was only 
'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from  the belief that the project was 
genuine and that therefore all elements  were genuine. 

HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to be  extremely cautious about 
such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it to a  certain extent. In the end 
it was K who failed and dragged the TS into a  state of confusion and shock 
it has not yet overcome. 

Govert  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: danielhcaldwell 
To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:21 AM  
Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  
Messiah Craze? 

Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  Messiah Craze? 
++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +  

Annie Besant at her most eloquent best: 

------------ ---------  --------- --------- --------- --------- - 
"And now I have to give you, by  command of the King, His message, 
and some of the messages of the Lord  Maitreya and His great 
Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of  announcement, is 
definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.  

His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon.  
Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their  
chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only  
the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship...  

The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C.  
Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini  
Arundale.... 

I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally,  our 
Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle  
of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as 
to  the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his 
crucifixion  before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King. 
Those are the  first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with 
Himself as the  thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do 
well, for so I am.'  
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -  

Daniel 
___http://hpb.cc__ (http://hpb.cc_/)  _ (_http://hpb.cc__ (http://hpb.cc_/) 
 /) (__http://hpb.cc/_ (http://hpb.cc/)  _ (_http://hpb.cc/_ 
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