Theos-Talk Archives (May 2009 Message tt00483)

1949
 
Chuck the Heretic
 
 
In a message dated 5/12/2009 6:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
silva_cass@yahoo.com writes:

 
 


What year were you born?????  No falsifying the dates  now!!
Cass

________________________________
From:  "_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) " 
<_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) >
To: _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com) 
Sent:  Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:37:23 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah  claims Adyar

Actually all us World Teachers have been inveterate  pranksters come to 
give 
the world laughing gas for the soul.

Chuck  the Heretic

In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26 P.M. Central Daylight  Time, 
silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:

lol. I don't expect they would  all be world saviours - just messengers
Cass

____________ _________  _________ __
From: "_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_  (mailto:Augoeides-From: "_Augoeides- 2
<_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides-  2_ (mailto:Augoeides-_Augoeides- 222@Au>
To: _theos-talk@  yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-To: _theos-talk@  ya
Sent: Tuesday,  12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims  Adyar

Cass, 
If a "world teacher" came at the end of every century  in the form 
characterized we would have had 20 more Jesus's all lined up  in serial 
order as 
"World Saviors" a label that I think did have some  existance for a while 
during Besant - Leadbeater era. I never have seen  any such thing in my 
coursing 
of histirical records. Who has the list?  

Regards, 
John 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cass  Silva" <silva_cass@ silva_cass> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com  
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific  
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 

As you say K  did not repudiate the WT project what he 
repudiated was his part in the  project. I am not surprised that JK 
initially thought of himself as the  new World Teacher operating out of 
Adyar - if 
he had run with that idea he  would have been glorified and sanctified by 
theosophists - I admire and  respect him for walking away and believe that 
his 
conscience 
would not  allow him to take on a role he knew he was not fated for. 

If we are to  rely on what Blavatsky gave us on a coming teacher we must 
also rely on  her timeline. 

One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have  been aware of 
this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB.  Blavatsky 
underlined 
her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY  CENTURY there will 
come...... 

One could argue then that  Krishnamurti was their choice (AB/CWL)for next 
world teacher and not  necessarily the man predestined to take on this 
role. 

Blavatsky also  pointed out that IF the theosophical society survived it 
would be the  vehicle for the next 
world teacher. 

Besant's comment "Which of us  is right only time can show." (12) came back 
to haunt her! 

>From a  dugpa's point of view what better way to fragment the TS than by  
introducing a 10 year old vagrant to the idea that he was born to be the  
next 
world teacher. Did they realise that that they and Leadbeater had  picked 
the wrong candidate or was he the perfect candidate for a means to  
disenfranchise the TS? They succeeded - the TS is no longer the fortress  
of truth as 
it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated into a mish mash of  psuedo religious 
and psuedo theosophical ideas. 

One must assume  that if a world teacher comes at the end of every century 
- that he is now  alive and 
kicking - and one can assume also that the TS has failed as he  is not 
represented as a theosophist. 

Cheers Cass  

____________ _________ _________ __ 
From: Govert Schuller <  schuller@alpheus. org > 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent:  Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM 
Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims  Adyar 

Dear Cass, 

I have to challenge the idea that K really  repudiated the WT project. 

He did not. He gave it his own  interpretation. 

There might be satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al  Blavatskyites in 
the idea that K completely repudiated the AB-CWL  additions/changes/ 
manglings 
to the original Theosophical program. They  think that K's criticisms are 
an additional vindication for their own  anti-neo-theosophic al position. 

I say, not so fast, for K truly  believed that he fulfilled the project 
even to the point of laying claim  on Adyar and the TS as the intended 
instruments for the coming teacher.  

K said: "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar to be meant for the  
teaching. The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is  
destroyed." 

I analyzed the statement in my paper on K, tying it back  to HPB's prophecy 
of the 'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full analysis below)  

Govert 

===== 
Reinforcing this view is an interesting, and  at first sight puzzling, 
remark Krishnamurti made about Annie Besant and  the Theosophical Society 
during 
an equally interesting conversation in  1979 with his friends, Radha 
Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing  Burnier's possible candidacy 
for the 
presidency of the Theosophical  Society. "Mrs.Besant intended the land at 
Adyar [the T.S. international  headquarters] to be meant for the teaching. 
The 
Theosophical Society has  failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9) 
This remark contains many  assumptions and finds its proper context in 
Besant's understanding of the  mission of the Theosophical Society and the 
role of 
Krishnamurti therein.  Annie Besant thought she was fulfilling a mission of 
the Theosophical  Society, which was not stated as one of its official 
objectives, but was  given to it by Helena P. Blavatsky--one of the 
founders of 
the  Theosophical Society and the society's main source of ideas--when 
she, at  the close of her life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of 
Truth"  for the later part of the twentieth century. The mission of the  
Theosophical Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for  
this 
"new leader" and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At  his 
arrival the Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove  the 
"merely 
mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his  path." Indicating 
the possibility of a glorious long-term goal of this  plan, she states that 
if "the Theosophical Society survives and lives true  to its 
mission...earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century." (10)  When 
Besant was 
challenged about her involvement in the Order of the Star  and her speaking 
of 
"the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming Teacher,"  (11) she defended 
herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's view  about the future 
mission of 
the Theosophical Society: "My crime is that I  share it, and do what 
my poor powers permit in preparing the minds of men  for that coming." 
Besant wrote that the only difference between herself  and Blavatsky 
regarding 
the coming of "the next great Teacher" was that  "she put that event 
perhaps 
half a century later than I do. Which of us is  right only time can show." 
(12) 

I think it is reasonable to state  that the particulars of Blavatsky's and 
Besant's views were picked up by  Krishnamurti during his formative years. 
He might even have read  Blavatsky's statement referred to above. If so, 
this 
might provide the  ground to put Krishnamurti' s remark in historical 
perspective, and to  explain the underlying structural similarity between 
his 
remark and  Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading 
of  
Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant [and  
Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the land at Adyar [the  
Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for the teaching [for  
the 
teacher]. The Theosophical Society has failed [did not to cooperate],  the 
original purpose [the mission of the Theosophical Society to herald  and 
aid 
the teacher] is destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of  this 
digression is to show that implicit in this remark is the  self-perception 
of Krishnamurti as the teacher, who was expected and did  come, but found 
the Theosophical Society not cooperative. 

=====  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13 PM  
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  
Messiah Craze? 

Quite right Govert, the TS was born in chaos and  continues on this same 
path. HPB told us that her mission was to bring the  ancient truths to the 
western world and to attempt to stem the spiritual  materialism promulgated 
by the 
roman church and its offshoots.  

As this was addressed to a western audience, it would require western  
spokespeople 
to transmit this knowledge - once the knowledge was given  it then appeared 
that 
Sinnett and others thought they were more  knowledgeable than their 
teachers. I 
have heard that the more one  learns the stronger the ego becomes - and 
this is one 
of the  challenges or tests of a chela. 

HPB unlike Sinnett et al she took  those teachings to heart and never 
waivered or 
challenged what was  given to her by those she considered far more 
knowledgeable 
than  herself on both spiritual and social questions. 

Her dissention was  mainly against outsiders - but since her demise the 
dissention 
has  come from insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for 
their  
own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead.  

AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga  and 
would 
have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before a  million or so years 
- so 
either they promoted Krishnamurti as a minor  avatar they had no reason to 
claim 
a messiah state for him. As the  master said, AB was blinded by her own 
imagination 
and CWL was just  the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into 
reality. JK, himself,  
recognized this as nonsense and left their mayavic dreams to its founders.  

I am not convinced that Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but  
perhaps 
was overshadowed by his own daimon.? 

Cass 

Cass  

____________ _________ _________ __ 
From: Govert Schuller  <schuller@alpheus. org> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent:  Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on  Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 
Messiah Craze? 

Cass, 

You  say the TS was already in a state of confusion when taken over by AB & 
 
CWL or because of them? 

The outcome of one's speculations about  the motives of AB & CWL for doing 
the WT project all depend on how one  would regard the project in the first 
place. If you don't think it was  genuine, then indeed you have to wonder 
why they were doing it. If you  think it was genuine, then a whole 
different 
view of their motivations is  possible. 

BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the beginning  in a state of 
confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis.  

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva  
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 8:59 PM  
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  
Messiah Craze? 

I disagree Govert, the TS was in a state of  confusion when taken over 
by Besant and Leadbeater, I believe, they  believed, that a World Teacher 
would bring the TS back to stability and  would increase membership. 
She was ready to leave the TS and join  Krishnamurti - what does that 
tell us? 

I was amused by AB turning  the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a 
university education - by doing  this she exposed him to a world and an 
awareness of a world outside of  Adyar. I don't think he liked the suits 
as he got out of them as quickly  as he could. lol 

Cass 

____________ _________ _________ __  
From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org> 
To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM  
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  
Messiah Craze? 

Daniel, 

The WT project in my view was  genuine, but had some 'messiah craze' 
elements, inevitably so given the  state of the human psyche. One of the 
'craze' 
elements was indeed the  'apostle affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed 
in. It came from  Arundale's 'crazed' brain. 

To reason from a few 'craze' elements to  the conclusion that it was only 
'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from  the belief that the project was 
genuine and that therefore all elements  were genuine. 

HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to be  extremely cautious about 
such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it to a  certain extent. In the end 
it was K who failed and dragged the TS into a  state of confusion and shock 
it has not yet overcome. 

Govert  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: danielhcaldwell 
To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:21 AM  
Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  
Messiah Craze? 

Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  Messiah Craze? 
++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +  

Annie Besant at her most eloquent best: 

------------ ---------  --------- --------- --------- --------- - 
"And now I have to give you, by  command of the King, His message, 
and some of the messages of the Lord  Maitreya and His great 
Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of  announcement, is 
definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.  

His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon.  
Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their  
chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only  
the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship...  

The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C.  
Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini  
Arundale.... 

I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally,  our 
Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle  
of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as 
to  the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his 
crucifixion  before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King. 
Those are the  first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with 
Himself as the  thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do 
well, for so I am.'  
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -  

Daniel 
__http://hpb.cc__ (http://hpb.cc_/)  (_http://hpb.cc/_ (http://hpb.cc/) ) 

[Non-text portions of this  message have been removed] 

Enjoy a better web experience. Upgrade to  the new Internet Explorer 8 
optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now.  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text  portions of this message have been removed]

************ **Recession-  proof vacation ideas. Find free things to do in 
the U.S. 
(_http://travel._ (http://travel./)   aol.com/travel- ideas/domestic/ 
national- tourism-week? ncid=emlcntustra  v00000002)

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]





**************Recession-proof vacation ideas.  Find free things to do in 
the U.S. 
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-ideas/domestic/national-tourism-week?ncid=emlcntustrav00000002)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]