Theos-Talk Archives (May 2009 Message tt00441)

Actually all us World Teachers have been inveterate pranksters come to give 
 the world laughing gas for the soul.
 
Chuck the Heretic
 
 
In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
silva_cass@yahoo.com writes:

 
 


lol.  I don't expect they would all be world saviours - just  messengers
Cass

________________________________
From:  "_Augoeides-222@Augoeides-2_ (mailto:Augoeides-222@comcast.net) "  
<_Augoeides-222@Augoeides-2_ (mailto:Augoeides-222@comcast.net) >
To:  _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com) 
Sent:  Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah  claims Adyar

Cass, 
If a "world teacher" came at the end of every  century in the form 
characterized we would have had 20 more Jesus's all lined  up in serial order as 
"World Saviors" a label that I think did have some  existance for a while 
during Besant - Leadbeater era. I never have seen any  such thing in my coursing 
of histirical records. Who has the list?  

Regards, 
John 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cass  Silva" <silva_cass@silva_cass> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com  
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific  
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 

As you say K  did not repudiate the WT project what he 
repudiated was his part in the  project. I am not surprised that JK 
initially thought of himself as the new  World Teacher operating out of Adyar - if 
he had run with that idea he would  have been glorified and sanctified by 
theosophists - I admire and respect him  for walking away and believe that his 
conscience 
would not allow him to  take on a role he knew he was not fated for. 

If we are to rely on what  Blavatsky gave us on a coming teacher we must 
also rely on her timeline.  

One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of  
this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB. Blavatsky underlined  
her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY CENTURY there will  
come...... 

One could argue then that Krishnamurti was their choice  (AB/CWL)for next 
world teacher and not necessarily the man predestined to take  on this role. 

Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the theosophical  society survived it 
would be the vehicle for the next 
world teacher.  

Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time can show." (12) came  back 
to haunt her! 

>From a dugpa's point of view what better way to  fragment the TS than by 
introducing a 10 year old vagrant to the idea that he  was born to be the next 
world teacher. Did they realise that that they and  Leadbeater had picked 
the wrong candidate or was he the perfect candidate for  a means to 
disenfranchise the TS? They succeeded - the TS is no longer the  fortress of truth as 
it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated into a mish mash of  psuedo religious 
and psuedo theosophical ideas. 

One must assume that  if a world teacher comes at the end of every century 
- that he is now alive  and 
kicking - and one can assume also that the TS has failed as he is not  
represented as a theosophist. 

Cheers Cass 

____________  _________ _________ __ 
From: Govert Schuller < schuller@alpheus. org  > 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009  2:04:14 AM 
Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 

Dear  Cass, 

I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT  project. 

He did not. He gave it his own interpretation. 

There  might be satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in 
the idea  that K completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/ manglings 
to the  original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms are 
an  additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al position.  

I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled the project  
even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as the intended  
instruments for the coming teacher. 

K said: "Mrs.Besant intended the  land at Adyar to be meant for the 
teaching. The Theosophical Society has  failed, the original purpose is destroyed." 

I analyzed the statement  in my paper on K, tying it back to HPB's prophecy 
of the 'torch-bearer of  Truth.' (full analysis below) 

Govert 

===== 
Reinforcing  this view is an interesting, and at first sight puzzling, 
remark Krishnamurti  made about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society during 
an equally  interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends, Radha 
Burnier and Pupul  Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible candidacy for the 
presidency of  the Theosophical Society. "Mrs.Besant intended the land at 
Adyar [the T.S.  international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching. The 
Theosophical  Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9) 
This remark  contains many assumptions and finds its proper context in 
Besant's  understanding of the mission of the Theosophical Society and the role of 
 Krishnamurti therein. Annie Besant thought she was fulfilling a mission of 
the  Theosophical Society, which was not stated as one of its official 
objectives,  but was given to it by Helena P. Blavatsky--one of the founders of 
the  Theosophical Society and the society's main source of ideas--when 
she, at  the close of her life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of 
Truth" for  the later part of the twentieth century. The mission of the 
Theosophical  Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for this 
"new leader"  and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his 
arrival the  Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove the "merely 
 mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path." Indicating 
the  possibility of a glorious long-term goal of this plan, she states that 
if "the  Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its 
mission...earth will be a  heaven in the twenty-first century." (10) When Besant was 
challenged about her  involvement in the Order of the Star and her speaking of 
"the T.S. as being  the Herald of the coming Teacher," (11) she defended 
herself by referring  explicitly to Blavatsky's view about the future mission of 
the Theosophical  Society: "My crime is that I share it, and do what 
my poor powers permit  in preparing the minds of men for that coming." 
Besant wrote that the only  difference between herself and Blavatsky regarding 
the coming of "the next  great Teacher" was that "she put that event perhaps 
half a century later than  I do. Which of us is right only time can show." 
(12) 

I think it is  reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's and 
Besant's views  were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative years. 
He might even have  read Blavatsky's statement referred to above. If so, this 
might provide the  ground to put Krishnamurti' s remark in historical 
perspective, and to explain  the underlying structural similarity between his 
remark and Blavatsky's  vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading of 
Krishnamurti' s statement  would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant [and 
Blavatsky] intended  [subscribed to the view that] the land at Adyar [the 
Theosophical Society] to  be meant [to be available] for the teaching [for the 
teacher]. The  Theosophical Society has failed [did not to cooperate], the 
original purpose  [the mission of the Theosophical Society to herald and aid 
the teacher] is  destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of this 
digression is to show  that implicit in this remark is the self-perception 
of Krishnamurti as the  teacher, who was expected and did come, but found 
the Theosophical Society not  cooperative. 

===== 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass  Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13  PM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of  the 
Messiah Craze? 

Quite right Govert, the TS was born in chaos and  continues on this same 
path. HPB told us that her mission was to bring the  ancient truths to the 
western world and to attempt to stem the spiritual  materialism promulgated 
by the 
roman church and its offshoots. 

As  this was addressed to a western audience, it would require western  
spokespeople 
to transmit this knowledge - once the knowledge was given it  then appeared 
that 
Sinnett and others thought they were more knowledgeable  than their 
teachers. I 
have heard that the more one learns the stronger  the ego becomes - and 
this is one 
of the challenges or tests of a chela.  

HPB unlike Sinnett et al she took those teachings to heart and never  
waivered or 
challenged what was given to her by those she considered far  more 
knowledgeable 
than herself on both spiritual and social questions.  

Her dissention was mainly against outsiders - but since her demise the  
dissention 
has come from insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the  knowledge for 
their 
own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an  incarnate godhead. 

AB and CWL would have been familiar with the  teachings on Kali Yuga and 
would 
have known that Kalki Avatar would not  appear before a million or so years 
- so 
either they promoted Krishnamurti  as a minor avatar they had no reason to 
claim 
a messiah state for him. As  the master said, AB was blinded by her own 
imagination 
and CWL was just  the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into 
reality. JK, himself,  
recognized this as nonsense and left their mayavic dreams to its founders.  

I am not convinced that Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but  
perhaps 
was overshadowed by his own daimon.? 

Cass 

Cass  

____________ _________ _________ __ 
From: Govert Schuller  <schuller@alpheus. org> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent:  Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on  Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 
Messiah Craze? 

Cass, 

You say  the TS was already in a state of confusion when taken over by AB & 
CWL or  because of them? 

The outcome of one's speculations about the motives  of AB & CWL for doing 
the WT project all depend on how one would regard  the project in the first 
place. If you don't think it was genuine, then indeed  you have to wonder 
why they were doing it. If you think it was genuine, then a  whole different 
view of their motivations is possible. 

BTW, it could  be argued that the TS was from the beginning in a state of 
confusion and was  badgered by crisis after crisis. 

Govert 

----- Original Message  ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent:  Monday, May 04, 2009 8:59 PM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her  Messiah: Was this Part of the 
Messiah Craze? 

I disagree Govert, the TS  was in a state of confusion when taken over 
by Besant and Leadbeater, I  believe, they believed, that a World Teacher 
would bring the TS back to  stability and would increase membership. 
She was ready to leave the TS and  join Krishnamurti - what does that 
tell us? 

I was amused by AB  turning the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a 
university education -  by doing this she exposed him to a world and an 
awareness of a world  outside of Adyar. I don't think he liked the suits 
as he got out of them  as quickly as he could. lol 

Cass 

____________ _________  _________ __ 
From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org> 
To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM  
Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the  
Messiah Craze? 

Daniel, 

The WT project in my view was genuine,  but had some 'messiah craze' 
elements, inevitably so given the state of the  human psyche. One of the 'craze' 
elements was indeed the 'apostle affair,'  which neither CWL nor K believed 
in. It came from Arundale's 'crazed' brain.  

To reason from a few 'craze' elements to the conclusion that it was  only 
'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from the belief that the project  was 
genuine and that therefore all elements were genuine. 

HPB's  thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to be extremely cautious about 
such  claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it to a certain extent. In the end 
it was K  who failed and dragged the TS into a state of confusion and shock 
it has not  yet overcome. 

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  danielhcaldwell 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Monday, May 04,  2009 11:21 AM 
Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this  Part of the 
Messiah Craze? 

Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part  of the Messiah Craze? 
++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++  + 

Annie Besant at her most eloquent best: 

------------  --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - 
"And now I have to  give you, by command of the King, His message, 
and some of the messages of  the Lord Maitreya and His great 
Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to  matter of announcement, is 
definitely at the command of the King whom I  serve. 

His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon.  
Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their  
chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only  
the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship...  

The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C.  
Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini  
Arundale.... 

I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally,  our 
Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle  
of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as 
to  the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his 
crucifixion  before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King. 
Those are the  first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with 
Himself as the  thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do 
well, for so I am.'  
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -  

Daniel 
_http://hpb.cc_ (http://hpb.cc/)  

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