Theos-Talk Archives (May 2009 Message tt00379)

BTW, my observatory mode will not be necessarily silent. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MKR 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 7:19 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Request: Membership Numbers TS (Adyar)





  We will be missing your valuable inputs; but am glad that you will be in
  observatory mode.
  .

  When the "leaders" avoid public discussions and continue to do their thing
  behind closed doors, it falls to a few participants to openly share their
  views and concerns so that an outside the box view on issues are presented.
  .
  When HPB was alive, she had prolific and vigorous correspondence in many of
  the well known newspapers and publications of the day. In contrast, what a
  change we see when we look at the present day "leaders" and their absence in
  public forums. It is like day and night. No wonder she was chosen to launch
  TS in 1875 and succeeded admirably in building up TS world-wide.
  .
  .
  MKR

  On 5/8/09, Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus.org> wrote:
  >
  >
  >
  > Dear Anton,
  >
  > Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, certain ambiguities and other structural
  > tensions within the TS can be quite productive and minimally prevent it from
  > becoming monolithic or dogmatic.
  >
  > BTW, for a while I was on the brink to get into participatory mode with the
  > institutional issues of the TS, but now decided to get back into observatory
  > mode as I think that I can make better contributions to Theosophy than to
  > the TS.
  >
  > Govert
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Anton Rozman
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
  > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:09 AM
  > Subject: Theos-World Re: Request: Membership Numbers TS (Adyar)
  >
  > Dear Govert,
  >
  > >To me it still looks like speculation. Relevant statistical data will be
  > hard to obtain . there will not be too much to go on to know what is really
  > going on structurally in the TS.<
  >
  > Yes, I am well aware of the limitations due to the shortage of available
  > data and I stress this fact. My strivings should be therefore understood as
  > an attempt to move from the realm of pure speculation to that based on some
  > relevant information, as a call that the Society's policy should take into
  > consideration "silent" expression of opinion from the part of membership. It
  > is actually a call to overcome personal antagonisms in favor of
  > collaboration and all-inclusiveness. Unfortunately, it seems that this
  > "call" is perceived as a sign of being institutionalized or sold out
  > financially to some self-interested faction.
  >
  > >For example, a good explanation why India's membership numbers are so much
  > better than the rest of the world is still missing and will need some
  > investigation to see what works there and to see if it's duplicable or
  > situation-specific.<
  >
  > I will indulge myself into speculation once again. The autonomy of the TS
  > Sections is not, de jure, based on the realization of the constitutional
  > structure of the TS but on their actual legal independence from the TS as
  > the TS does not legally assert its international status. Therefore the TS is
  > actually an Indian society which operates as a voluntary federation of
  > national Theosophical Societies. It is normal that this ambiguous situation
  > perpetually provokes friction and tensions as none of the TS bodies can
  > actually perform its constitutional role, beginning with the General Council
  > as the alleged governing body of the Society. It is my speculation that
  > Indian members can, because of various reasons (some of which you have
  > listed), more easily identify themselves with the administration at the TS
  > Headquarters than members in other countries around the world.
  >
  > >Probably the integral phase might open up again to Theosophy, but that
  > phase is still in its infancy and has not yet opened up sufficiently to the
  > occult (magical) mode of consciousness as it is still `tainted' with a
  > residual rationalistic resistance to anything occult (vide Wilber). At the
  > same time it can be argued that parts of the New Age movement (to which the
  > TS belongs whether it likes it or not) are regressing out of the rational
  > back into merely magical and mythical modes.<
  >
  > I think that we have to somehow distinguish the Theosophical Society and
  > the Theosophy. In my view the Theosophical Society was designed as quite
  > unique organization based on inherent intellectual and spiritual freedom of
  > its members and that this inner fact or truth in nature represents, and I
  > speculate again, its ever-emerging impulse to attract idealistic people and
  > to somehow cope with the fate which it shares on the "psychological" level
  > with the rest of the New Age movement.
  >
  > Warmest regards,
  > Anton
  >
  > p.s. Thanks for the insights regarding the situation in India and the TS in
  > 1919-25.
  >
  > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Govert
  > Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
  > >
  > > Dear Anton,
  > >
  > > To me it still looks like speculation. Relevant statistical data will be
  > hard to obtain as there are so far no questionaires asking targeted
  > questions to a sample of Theosophists about their reasoning why they voted
  > or not voted.
  > >
  > > And absent an analysis from an outside agency specialised in
  > organizational matters, there will not be too much to go on to know what is
  > really going on structurally in the TS.
  > >
  > > For example, a good explanation why India's membership numbers are so
  > much better than the rest of the world is still missing and will need some
  > investigation to see what works there and to see if it's duplicable or
  > situation-specific.
  > >
  > > Is it due to the increased affluence of the rising Indian middle class?
  > Is it due to inspired leadership in the Indian section? Or is Theosophy a
  > welcome philosophy when a society is in transition from a traditional
  > (mythic) into a modern, secularized (rational) mode as it provides a measure
  > of both? This transition is arguably happening in broad swaps of the Indian
  > population, while most of the West has already gone through that phase as it
  > is transiting into post-modernism, which is not too welcome to Theosophy and
  > other grand narratives and grand Hegel-like overarching, philosophical
  > systems.
  > >
  > > The above Gebserian explanation might be acurrate if we could get a
  > demographic break-down of the socio-economic strata of both the West and
  > India as far as changes in membership are concerned. Is there a rise in in
  > membership in the more traditional country-side or amongst educated,
  > secularized urbanites?
  > >
  > > Probably the integral phase might open up again to Theosophy, but that
  > phase is still in its infancy and has not yet opened up sufficiently to the
  > occult (magical) mode of consciousness as it is still 'tainted' with a
  > residual rationalistic resistance to anything occult (vide Wilber). At the
  > same time it can be argued that parts of the New Age movement (to which the
  > TS belongs whether it likes it or not) are regressing out of the rational
  > back into merely magical and mythical modes.
  > >
  > > Here it is maybe good to ponder if HPB's occult theosophy had many
  > elements that were strictly calibrated to the historical situation in which
  > it was perceived to arise, i.e. the materalistic, barbaric West, which had
  > to be saved from its own deficiencies. The West evolved, for better or
  > worse, and maybe the more situation-specific elements in Theosophy then
  > turned into their opposite, from being attractors to repulsors.
  > >
  > > Govert
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: Anton Rozman
  > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
  > > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34 PM
  > > Subject: Theos-World Re: Request: Membership Numbers TS (Adyar)
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Dear Govert,
  > >
  > > You wrote:
  > >
  > > >Your conclusion: . is possibly true, but not necessarily so as there are
  > other possible explanations like members not being sufficiently informed
  > about what was at stake, or, if informed, just being indifferent. I'm sure
  > there were abstentions motivated by protest, but it's open how big a
  > percentage that was.<
  > >
  > > Yes, sure. To make any serious analysis at least data of two previous
  > elections would be needed along with the membership numbers. Therefore my
  > comments are nothing more than subjective interpretation of available data.
  > In addition, these comments are drawn from the study of the relation between
  > the steadiness of membership and the level of abstention in some Sections
  > and should be read along with those I wrote specifically on the voting
  > abstention:
  > >
  > > Voting Abstention
  > >
  > > As each member of the Theosophical Society eligible to vote get voting
  > ballot by mail at her/his address the voting abstention at present President
  > Elections of 37.8 % is relatively high. Although it is hard to speculate
  > about the reasons for such abstention I will anyway try to find some of
  > them.
  > >
  > > As voting attendance was less or around 50 % in USA, Australia, New
  > Zealand and Europe where John Algeo was prevalently voted for it can be
  > assumed that one of the reasons for abstention was that none of the
  > candidates (as both are actual top officers of the Society) represented a
  > promise for more radical change in the Society.
  > >
  > > The second reason is probably the fact that votes outside India can not
  > play decisive part in the election of the TS' President and therefore many
  > members feel that their vote does not count.
  > >
  > > The third reason can be a feeling among members of some sections that
  > they are not involved in the work of the Society to a sufficient degree or
  > not at all, that sections' officers are somehow alienated from the rest of
  > membership and that they feel that they don't have any influence on the
  > section's and overall policy of the Society.
  > >
  > > The fact that the elected President does not enjoy the majority support
  > outside India should represent a warning that in the Society some necessary
  > changes are eminent and that there is an urgency to find such solutions
  > which will find consensus of majority of the Society's membership.
  > >
  > > Warmest regards,
  > > Anton
  > >
  > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>,
  > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
  > > >
  > > > Dear Anton,
  > > >
  > > > Fabulous. Great work. Very helpful. Few observations:
  > > >
  > > > 1) Indian membership between 1918 and 1928 declined dramatically as
  > total membership increased. (Total membership, Australia, England and USA
  > all peaked around 1929, the year of the dissolution of the OSE and just
  > before the depression)
  > > >
  > > > India peaked at 9,365 in 1919 (which number they reached again in
  > 1975), had a temporary low at 4,980 in 1925 and temporary high again at
  > 6,905 in 1928.
  > > >
  > > > What happened between 1918 and 1925 in India?
  > > >
  > > > 2) Your conclusion:
  > > >
  > > > "Therefore, along with an overall high abstention of voters these data,
  > in my opinion, additionally shows that there is present in TS membership
  > certain disagreement with the policy of actual TS leadership and the choices
  > available at the Elections 2008"
  > > >
  > > > is possibly true, but not necessarily so as there are other possible
  > explanations like members not being sufficiently informed about what was at
  > stake, or, if informed, just being indifferent. I'm sure there were
  > abstentions motivated by protest, but it's open how big a percentage that
  > was.
  > > >
  > > > Govert
  > > > .
  > > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > > From: Anton Rozman
  > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
  > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:52 AM
  > > > Subject: Theos-World Re: Request: Membership Numbers TS (Adyar)
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Hi Govert,
  > > >
  > > > Here are Membership statistics for the period 1879-1983 summarized from
  > Dr. Tillett's Ph.D. Thesis:
  > > >
  > > > http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/Membership_Statistics.htm
  > > >
  > > > and Membership statistics for 2007/08:
  > > >
  > > > http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/Membership_Statistics2007-08.htm
  > > >
  > > > Till now I didn't succeed to gather data for the period 1983-2007.
  > > >
  > > > Best regards,
  > > > Anton
  > > >
  > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>,
  > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
  > > > >
  > > > > Dear all,
  > > > >
  > > > > Does anybody here have the membership numbers throughout the years of
  > TS (Adyar)?
  > > > >
  > > > > They have been published on a yearly basis, but has anybody collected
  > them in one doc.?
  > > > >
  > > > > Thanks in advance
  > > > >
  > > > > Govert
  > > > >
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  > 
  >

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