Theos-Talk Archives (April 2009 Message tt00457)

----- Forwarded Message ----- 
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:17:20 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Fwd: Theos-World To Govert: Part 3: Theosophical SOURCE Material 



----- Forwarded Message ----- 
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:08:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World To Govert: Part 3: Theosophical SOURCE Material 




Govert, 
Well, as I said I read it in the 1977+ period so I don't have a strong recall of details that I had in my thought back then. But It ivery replete of his quiry into the origins and transformations of place names of locations, cities of antiquity, the names and permutations of tribes. peoples, gods, religious reverences. He has a unusual view of the Afganistan culture and has a good deal of interest of the locations of Solomons Temples he beleives were present in India and Afganistan. He preomens the anthopological modren position in regards to the spread of mankind from Africa by Black peoples. He has acticulated much on origins of the Alphabets and who was first in his research view as well as numbers, gemetria, esoterica initiate usages of the letters and numbers. The work is well indexed with a prolithic index as a help to readers. He publishes in his research on Cycles the correlate to what is called today "The Saros Cycle" as a recurrent period of 666 years (page 180, Bk 1)that is also integral to the "Savior Cycle" sequences.His work also renders information on the"Beth-Luis-Nion" Tree Alphabet and the Dance of the Tree's so well explained lter in Robert Graves White Goddess which I absolutely love. Because I was simultaeniously deeply involved in the Brian Scott UFO encounter for the period 1976-81I read in part looking for data that could reveal information that was given in regards to Egypt, Delphi, Dodona, Stonehenge. Tiahuanaco, Toro Muerto, Jerusalem, and other locations that were stated. 

I found his work to be a challenge to read being of such girth and breadth of contents it competes strongly with the SD. At the same period I was reading the works of Charles Fales Dunlap , Sod-The Son of Man, The Spirit History of Man these works being very pronounced with the root origins of names, places epistemologically in cultures as with Higgins they complemented each other. Another work was "The Oriental Trinity" of Vaughan that traced the spread of the Trinity to the west from India. 

Higgins work as wih Blavatsky indulges heavily with the distintive definitions of the Christ , Christos, Chresterion and other variation and distinct different meanings of these words in greek and other languages and cultures in locations, times, peoples, religious and common as well as esoteric usages parrellel to Blavatsky later in her works. I could easily cognize this as I read his work to her Isis and SD. It was quite thrilling to so the remarkable unity of thought even though the warp and weaves is unique to the authors the mind stream is focused. Higgins forced me to try to learn greek Alphabet and be able to do some direct reading. I highly recommend the Anacalypsis for reading, study, and comparitive partner to the works of HPB it iis a unique compilation. Where Blavatsky may have given only a gloss Higgins may have given a mini-chapter. Higgins devotes much to thew ancient system of Symbols when used for religious, esoteric or initiate purposes, again he is a strong complement in his own way to HPB. 

I wondered when reading his monumental work how in his time of early 1800's did he find ways to gather such an emmense volumes of meaning and knowledge when they had not the means we do today. It occurred to me onmorethan one occassion that authors of the past possessing so much less means were so profoundly deep in depth of research when compared to todays shallow presentments. The had no internet, telephones, quick travel, ease of meeting, or even health yet so many back then gathered emmense knowledge they is so useful even if they were mistaken in their assessments at times the totality of data they managed to present is truely remarkable. I am so glad there were and are people like Dr. Hotema of Health Research and Kissenger Press that managed to keep things around for the Seekers of Truth in todays world. 

Soon the magnificient explosion of knowledge will take place for all mankind: 

World Digital Library 

>>>http://www.worlddigitallibrary.org/project/english/index.html<<< 

Wikipedia World Digital Library 

>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Digital_Library<<< 


Encyclopedia of Life 

>>>http://www.eol.org/<<< 

Gee, I have Vol. 1 of the Anacalypsis here next to me it is very heavy and thick and the type is not large either. It is hard to even try to thumbnail it it has such immense breath of contents, just readin the chapter headings of contents one is awed by his life's work. 

Regards, 
John 

PS: I am so involved with my gardening right now I have put off the relpy to the Heidegger posts, later this year, my apoligy. 







----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Govert Schuller" <schuller@alpheus.org> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:55:17 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World To Govert: Part 3: Theosophical SOURCE Material 








John, 

Can you share some more about your reading/studying of Anacalypsis? 

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:21 PM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World To Govert: Part 3: Theosophical SOURCE Material 

Govert, 
Yes, the Anaclypisis of Geoffrey Higgins Esq. FSA F.R. Asiatic Soc., F.R. Ast. S., 2 vol. , 1836 was a source for HPB and she did cite it, there is much in it corrallary to her works content like much about the Hindu Cycles etc. In fact the full title is: 
" Anacalypsis--- An Attempt To Draw Aside The Veil of The Saitic Issis; or An Inquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations, And Religions, 1492 pages. ISBN# 0-7873-1113-8, the work has a large number of illustrations and objects of antiquity. 

I purchased the work in 1977-8 from Health Research, btw, the Bodhi Tree Book Store in LA carries many of their reprints: 

>>>www.healthgresearchbooks.com<<< (ask them to mail a catalogue they reprint rare out of print works) 

Health Research 
Box 850 
Pomeroy, Wa. 999347 

Phone:(509) 843-3285 

It is a vast work and my opinion is HPB must had spent a good deal of time either herself or her able assistants like G. R. S. Mead , Keightly and others. 

Regards, 
John 
----- Orignal Message ----- 
From: "Govert Schuller" < schuller@alpheus.org > 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:29:36 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World To Govert: Part 3: Theosophical SOURCE Material 

Dear Daniel, 

I do belief that HPB came out with a lot of original material, that could be called 'source material' for Theosophy. 

But that's merely a belief as I have not studied all the source material which she herself had around while writing. For example whatever I have read of and about Higgin's Anacalypsis just sounds very familiar and similar to Isis Unveiled. 

And then there are little bits of her writings that I tried to check and found her inaccurate--about which later more. 

And quoting Jerry and Sinnett doesn't amount to much either for me. 

So, probably we'll just have to chip away at HPB to see what is really original and what not, and what is true and what not. 

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: danielhcaldwell 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 9:32 AM 
Subject: Theos-World To Govert: Part 3: Theosophical SOURCE Material 

I would like to quote what Jerry H.E. wrote years ago on theos-l: 

"...we tried to promote a historically based general definition of 
[Theosophical] source material that focuses upon the period before 
the splits [in the Theosophical Society], when this material 
was being given out for the first time. Therefore, this period is 
common history for everybody [i.e., for Theosophical students]". 

Notice Jerry's words: 

"...when this material was being given out for THE FIRST TIME". caps 
added 

It was H.P. Blavatsky who showed up on the public scene in late 1874 
and 1875 in America and started the process of giving out the "source 
material" which she said emanated from her Lodge, from her Masters. 

In July, 1875, when she wrote her "first occult shot" Olcott knew 
virtually nothing about the "source teachings" except what HPB had 
started to give him. 

Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, Subba Row, Chatterji, Holloway, 
Leadbeater, Besant and others had not even meet HPB at this time! 

Each in turn had a fateful day when they heard of and then met HPB. 

She was the SOURCE, the channel through which each of them obtained 
their initial knowledge and understanding of Theosophy and the 
Masters. 

Sinnett himself readily admits this in one of his books "The Early 
Days of Theosophy": 

"Madame Blavatsky is the CENTRAL FIGURE to be considered. She was THE 
ONE PERSON who knew of her own knowledge, that The Brothers, - as she 
called them in those days - were Beings, human in aspect, of flesh 
and blood, for she had been for a time in company with two of them in 
Tibet. She knew they had dazzling powers in dealing with the affairs 
of the world. She herself had faculties of a super-physical order 
that kept her in touch with them wherever she might be. She knew she 
had a mission to fulfil which had for the moment assumed the shape of 
the Theosophical Society. She must have been conscious of possessing 
wonderful powers the exercise of which was under restriction, to 
which she submitted in devotion to the great Brother whom she 
regarded as her own Master, in a pre-eminent degree. .[page 17] caps 
added. 

Relevant to keep in mind is what HPB herself wrote in 1877 in her 
very first book ISIS UNVEILED. She told her readers about these 
Adepts and her role in giving out the fundamentals of Theosophy as 
follows: 

". . .we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such 
mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly 
designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their instructions we 
lent a ready ear." p. vi 

"The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a somewhat 
intimate acquaintance with Eastern adepts and study of their 
science." p. v 

Moving on.... 

And during the 16 and 1/2 years of her public work, HPB was 
constantly giving out these "source teachings" of Theosophy. 

And if, for example, William Judge or C.W. Leadbeater had never become 
a Theosophist, we would still have Theosophy as given by HPB in the 
10,000 plus pages of her writings as well as all the extant letters 
of the Masters. 

If Sinnett or Besant had never come into contact with HPB or if they 
had become students of Theosophy but had never written a word on the 
subject, we would still have "the source teachings" as given through 
HPB. 

Historically speaking therefore, HPB was the SOURCE, i.e. "the point 
at which something springs into being", for Theosophy as we know it 
in modern times. 

HPB came FIRST; each of the individuals named above came LATER. 

Now I am not saying that Olcott, Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, 
Leadbeater Besant and others may not have made contributions to the 
Theosophical work that HPB had originally started. They may have.... 

But my point here is that they built on her original foundation, they 
followed or tried to follow or at least said they tried to follow in 
her footsteps. 

But had none of these individuals ever written any thing on 
Theosophy, the "source teachings" as given by HPB would still be 
available. 

Notice again that Jerry HE writes: "...we tried to promote a 
historically based general definition of source material that focuses 
upon the period BEFORE [caps added] the splits [occurred in the 
Theosophical Society]....] 

When did the splits occur? One split that Jerry HE is probably 
referring to is the serious split between Besant and Judge. 

But there was a "split" as early as 1886 when A.P. Sinnett sought 
communication with the Masters through a SOURCE other than HPB. 

Originally Sinnett was put into contact VIA HPB with the Masters 
through letters beginning in Oct. 1880. 

But in 1884, he started to "resent" some of what the Masters were 
telling him in their letters. And he began to have doubts about HPB 
and sought in 1886 to gain access to the Masters through Maude 
Trevers whom he hypnotised. 

Actually Sinnett had tried this very same thing (hypnosis) in the 
summer of 1884 with Laura Holloway. 

Sinnett's seeking for a source to the Masters OTHER THAN through HPB, 
lead finally to that famous K.H. letter to Colonel Olcott in August, 
1888. (See Letter 19 in "The Letters of the Masters of the 
Wisdom*First Series".) 

Olcott, Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, Subba Row, Leadbeater, Besant AND 
OTHERS may have made valuable contributions to Theosophy BUT whatever 
they accomplished (or did not accomplish) was built upon the 
foundation of "source teachings" FIRST given by H.P. Blavatsky. 

And when the serious split between Judge on one side and 
Besant/Olcott on the other side started and culminated in 1893-1995, 
BOTH SIDES claimed contact with the Masters and the deceased HPB. 
Then the Theosophical Society was splintered. 

Who was in the right and who was in the wrong is not easy to 
determine. 

But I have file folders of letters from serious Theosophy students 
giving their differing views. Some believe Besant and Olcott fell by 
the wayside and Judge remained faithful to the Masters. Others 
believe Judge fell by the wayside as well as Olcott and Besant. 
Others say Judge failed but Besant continued the orginal tradition. 
etc. etc. 

On Theos-Talk in the last few years we have seen various 
correspondents take different sides and views. Frank R., Anand G., 
Dallas T., Nigel C. and others have voiced their differing views. 
Now Govert has posted some material giving even another view. 

Going back to what Jerry H.E. wrote: "Therefore, this period [before 
the splits] is common history for everybody." 

I would amend this to read: 

Therefore, this period BEFORE HPB died SHOULD BE common history for 
everybody. 

Again summarising the above: 

HPB was the first to come on the public stage and give the source 
teachings of Theosophy in 10,000 + pages of writings plus the letters 
of the Masters given out during HPB's life. 

The Theosophists I have mentioned above and others such as Tingley, 
de Purucker, Bailey, etc. came on the scene sometime after HPB. They 
may have all been sincere, truth seeking individuals and all may have 
made to a greater or lesser degree various contributions (literary or 
otherwise) to HPB's work, but especially after HPB's death, claims 
and counter claims proliferated. 

For a listing of more of the claims and counterclaims, see: 

http://blavatskyarchives.com/moderntheosophy.htm#Endnote 

But Theosophical students should have in HPB's claims and teachings a 
COMMON SOURCE to focus on, regardless of the truth and validity of 
the secondary "sources" and later claims of some of HPB's students or 
later followers or claimants after HPB died. 

Now, I am not implying or saying that there were no contacts with the 
Masters after HPB's death. After her death and even today other 
agents MAY have come forth. That is, genuine contacts from HPB's 
Masters. 

Unfortunately, you cannot get a room of serious Theosophy/Blavatsky 
students from diverse Theosophical backgrounds to agree on who that 
person or agent was or is! 

That is a fact that should make a reflective and thoughtful person 
pause and ponder. 

I suggest especially to new students and inquirers that they would be 
wise to focus [at least initially] on the writings of HPB and the 
letters of the Masters which from the perspective I have been 
outlining above are the SOURCE Teachings of modern day Theosophy. 

Here is a huge body of material that contains more than enough food 
for thought for serious inquirers, seekers and new Theosophists. 

Daniel Caldwell 
http://hpb.cc 

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