Theos-Talk Archives (April 2009 Message tt00018)

Dear Katinka and friends

My views are:

Thank you for you very interesting answers and remarks.
Allow me to answer you in return.

My answer was done in a calm manner seeking out the truth obout the issues.

1) 
I find, that you perhaps misunderstood the question I posed. 
Maybe I should have said "objects" instead of "core teachings".
If you say "NONE", then I think you already have deviated from the programe as it was given by H. P. Blavatsky. There are certainly the three objects of the TS to take into consideration.
One of them is the creation of a nucleus of Universal Brotherhood.

a)
There are the issue mentioned in HPB's book the Key to Theosophy, p. 2-3.
HPB said;
"ENQUIRER. What was the object of this system?

THEOSOPHIST. First of all to inculcate certain great moral truths upon its disciples, and all those who were "lovers of the truth." Hence the motto adopted by the Theosophical Society: "There is no religion higher than truth." â The chief aim of the Founder of the Eclectic Theosophical School was one of the three objects of its modern successor, the Theosophical Society, namely, to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities. " (The Key to Theosophy, p. 2-3.)

So no objects or core teachings? Or were they somehow changed october 1888?


b)
In the following we will understand, why untheosophical activities at the General Counsil aught to be protested against...And that there is no need for having loyality towards the bathroom of Adyar etc etc. (And we all know that Annie Besant around 1908 changed the TS structure given by HPB, Olcott and the Masters in 1888.)


A few more words.....

"A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR" by H. P. Blavatsky
"And what does âloyalty to Adyarâ mean, in the name of all wonders? What is Adyar, apart from that CAUSE and the two (not one Founder, if you please) who represent it? Why not loyal to the compound or the bathroom of Adyar? Adyar is the present Headquarters of the Society, because these âHeadquarters are wherever the President is,â as stated in the rules. To be logical, the Fellows of the T.S. had to be loyal to Japan while Col. Olcott was there, and to London during his presence here. There is no longer a âParent Societyâ; it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical Societies, all autonomous, as are the States of America, and all under one Head-President, who, together with H. P. Blavatsky, will champion the CAUSE against the whole world. Such is the real state of things."
. . . . . . .
"Because (a) Madame Blavatsky does not owe the slightest allegiance to a Council which is liable at any moment to issue silly and untheosophical ukases; and (b) for the simple reason that she recognizes but one person in the T.S. besides herself, namely Colonel Olcott, as having the right of effecting fundamental re-organizations in a Society which owes its life to them, and for which they are both karmically responsible. If the acting editor makes slight account of a sacred pledge, neither Col. Olcott nor H. P. Blavatsky are likely to do so. H. P. Blavatsky will always bow before the decision of the majority of a Section or even a simple Branch; but she will ever protest against the decision of the General Council, were it composed of Archangels and Dhyan Chohans themselves, if their decision seems to her unjust, or untheosophical, or fails to meet with the approval of the majority of the Fellows. No more than H. P. Blavatsky has the President-Founder the right of exercising autocracy or papal powers, and Col. Olcott would be the last man in the world to attempt to do so. It is the two Founders and especially the President, who have virtually sworn allegiance to the Fellows, whom they have to protect, and teach those who want to be taught, and not to tyrannize and rule over them.
And now I have said over my own signature what I had to say and that which ought to have been said in so many plain words long ago. The public is all agog with the silliest stories about our doings, and the supposed and real dissensions in the Society. Let everyone know the truth at last, in which there is nothing to make any one ashamed, and which alone can put an end to a most painful and strained feeling. This truth is as simple as can be."

- - -
And I do not owe any allegiance either.
My views are therefore. So every time TS Adyar chooses a new leader or new General Counsil, TS Adyar effectually creates a new TS. A TS without the guidance by the Masters is to me a dead-letter TS. I would say, let us follow a TS under the guidance of the Masters.

So It seems no TS group claim to be in contact with any Masters these days.
How can they then be able to guide anyone and achive the object of Universal Brotherhood/Sisterhood?
Will such a TS decay or is there an strong and increased risk that they do so?

I wonder...should I seek the Wisdom Religion elsewhere?

- - - - - - -
2)
***I originally asked***
"Are TS today following the view given by HPB on the importance to protest against deviations from the theosophical teachings by the use of the Theosophical magazines or similar medias?"

>>>Katinka answered<<<
"So you misrepresent her opinion. "
- - -
My answer:
In what manner?
I did not understand you answers. Would you care to expand on this?
( Try to read the above quote from HPB's article "A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR" on protesting.)

- - - - - - -
3)

>>>Katinka answered<<<
"Same thing: there is no official policy other than tolerance to ALL religions & criticism, where needed of all dogmatics."

My answer:
So there are - core teachings - after all? 
(Try to have a look at your answer in no. 1)

So "criticism, where needed of all dogmatics". So I conclude, that the Liberal Catholic Church aught never to be accepted without a loud protest or criticism as it stands today - with its stance about the Christian Bible and only male priest allowed?
And the same with the many years of activity of the past World Teacher Project and the existence of "The Order of the Star in the East" and its demands of membership as well?
I find self-criticism to be a healthy excercise.

- - - - - - -
4)
***I originally asked***
"Is God a "he" and/ or a physical being as most a great number of theosophical books on sale tells us? Are one required to believe in J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher today? And if not, how can that be reconciled with the fact that TS are selling books about him?"

>>>Katinka answered<<<
"The TS is selling books by Jiddu Krishnamurti, because his work is inspiring to many (including no doubt our president). But the TS also sells books by many other spiritual teachers, like Blavatsky, Besant, Leadbeater, the Dalai Lama and many more. It's up to us to reconcile their teachings if we can. The TS has NO official position about the content of these books."

My answer:
I can find many other so-called "spiritual" books to be inspiring. 
J. Krishnamurti was not really pro the existence of the TS and its wise and honest efforts towards.... "to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities. " (The Key to Theosophy, p. 2-3.) - was he?


No official policy you say?
A proverb says: Tell me what you think, and I will tell you who you are.

Of course there is a policy. The policy are daily and every second being mirrored in what books are - allowed - to be sold and/or promoted on the TS Adyar website and in their books on sale!

I would clearly claim:
It is a fact, that certain books and authors are omitted being sold even if they clearly are better in content. And others are allowed even if they spell trash from top to bottom, because of the content.


- - - - - - -
5)
***I originally asked***
Can TS leaders today imagine persons who have been victims of child abuse to feel themselves to be WELL-comed and happy  members of the TS? And if yes, how is that to come about, when everyone talks negatively about C. W. Leabeaters past supposed sexually related "deeds" or activities? And if so, how can that be reconciled with the fact that TS today are selling books written by C. W. Leadbeater?

>>>Katinka answered<<<
"The teachings by Leadbeater aren't relevant to his personal behavior. Except that of course, if he did in fact abuse children, he was a hypocrite. Still, he may still have seen truth. I think most informed theosophists these days think that he saw truth in some cases and his own delusions in others. However that may be: the TS leaves it up to us to decide which is which. "


My answer:
So the childrens of child abuse feel themselves welcomed as TS members?....hmmm...?
I did not find Katinkas answer to that. Why?

I disagree: The teachings by Leadbeater ARE relevant to his personal behavior. Especially, when they are being sold to a victim of Child abuse or to a theosophist with a honest heart of compassion. In the eyes of the average journalist and everyday human, the opposite opinion would be unethical. And it is - as far as understand the situation - this unethical position TS Adyar daily promotes.


I asked:
And if so, how can that be reconciled with the fact that TS today are selling books written by C. W. Leadbeater?

I find, that your answer is not helpful. I wonder why honest theosophists dare to promote books, which turn TS into - a bad name - and day by day throw dirt on the Masters intentions with the TS? 

It is incredible that some Liberal Catholics apparently believe that a liturgy devised by Bishops Wedgwood and Leadbeater (The Science of the Sacrements) with the assistance of Mrs. Annie Besant, a liturgy which requires a male priest for the efficient production of its effects, a liturgy so artfully, aesthetically , and efficiently designed, should less than a hundred years after its institution be subjected to an act which could or would render it ineffectual as a sacrificial and sacramental action! Was not the institution of new Liberal Catholic liturgical arrangements the very foundation and basis of future development, a development consistent with the insights and vision of the Founding Bishops?

And do we not find this Church on the TS Adyar Compund?

I find, that We do not support giving the theosophical teachings a bad name by not - calmly - clarifing clearly and honestly the whole affair surrounding CWL and his bad reputation. There are no shortcuts here. Silence will not dispell the bad and sinister atmosphere created. Either TS explains it stance or it will continue to decay as it is doing at the moment. I find that to be as clear as the fact, that the Masters are real to me.

I and many others clearly find it extremely urgent that TS settled this issue much more clearly, than those wague two-liners og two-page articles we are used to be thrown into our heart of compassion and towards the child abused.

- - - - - - -
6)
***I originally asked***
"How are TS today relating to issues like UFOs, Cropcirlcles ("present day Mahatma Letters"?), and the so-called "Disclosure Project", while not being involved with Political activity?"

>>>Katinka answered<<<
As far as I can tell the TS is ignoring these subjects.

My answer:
And what does that tell us about the TS?

HPB talked about Vimanas or Wivans.
And I tell you, that one as a honest theosophists easily wonders whether the UFO-issue and its Cropcircles (equivalent to Mahatma Lettters of old) TODAY have replaced the late 19th century public interest in theosophical teachings and Himalayan Masters. And that such a thought aught to raise some eyebrows in TS.

- - - - - - -
7)
***I originally asked***
Are any TS leaders today claiming to be in contact with the Masters like in the old days of TS?

>>>Katinka answered<<<
TS leaders are not publicly claiming to be in touch with the Masters. If they feel they are, they are keeping it to themselves.

My answer:
Two questions creeps forward and begs to be answered:
And aught we then to seek to become members of the TS? Should we go elsewhere?

Has the cornerstone of the furture wisdom-religion replanted with another name, because the dead-letter name "The Theosophical Society" is and was not part of the Masters programe?

- - - - - - -
8)
Was not answered as far as I can read.




M. Sufilight



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Katinka Hesselink 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:29 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World TS Adyar - The Truth Unveiled


  Hi Morton,

  I can answer those questions for you - no need to bother Keith.

  1) core teachings? The TS has NONE - because there is a liberty of thought in the TS. As repeated in every issue of the Theosophist, first page.

  2) Blavatsky had a very strict policy of having all kinds of things published in her magazines - and she did not agree with all of them. So you misrepresent her opinion. 

  3) Same thing: there is no official policy other than tolerance to ALL religions & criticism, where needed of all dogmatics.

  4) The TS is selling books by Jiddu Krishnamurti, because his work is inspiring to many (including no doubt our president). But the TS also sells books by many other spiritual teachers, like Blavatsky, Besant, Leadbeater, the Dalai Lama and many more. It's up to us to reconcile their teachings if we can. The TS has NO official position about the content of these books.

  5) The teachings by Leadbeater aren't relevant to his personal behavior. Except that of course, if he did in fact abuse children, he was a hypocrite. Still, he may still have seen truth. I think most informed theosophists these days think that he saw truth in some cases and his own delusions in others. However that may be: the TS leaves it up to us to decide which is which. 

  6) As far as I can tell the TS is ignoring these subjects.

  7) TS leaders are not publicly claiming to be in touch with the Masters. If they feel they are, they are keeping it to themselves.

  Best wishes,
  Katinka Hesselink
  http://www.katinkahesselink.net/
  http://www.allconsidering.com/

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
  >
  > Dear Keith
  > 
  > My views are:
  > 
  > Thanks a lot. That is as far as I am concerned a good e-mail.
  > 
  > I have tons of questions to ask.
  > But I will try to narrow it down to a "few".
  > 
  > Maybe you find my questions to be a bit off topic.
  > But think, that if you relate them to the words in your e-mail, you will find that they could be relevant give an answer.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 1. What core teachings are today followed in TS Adyar, when compared to the days when H. P. Blavatsky lived? And have those changes been created in accordance with the original programe given by HPB and the Masters? Or are they more in accordance with for instance J. Krishnamurtis or C. W. Leadbeaters views?
  > 
  > 2. Are TS today following the view given by HPB on the importance to protest against deviations from the theosophical teachings by the use of the Theosophical magazines or similar medias?
  > 
  > 3. Have TS changed its views upon the - level of - rejection of dogma and Christianity and Islam since HPB left the physical world? And to what degree or level? 
  > 
  > 4. Is God a "he" and/ or a physical being as most a great number of theosophical books on sale tells us? Are one required to believe in J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher today? And if not, how can that be reconciled with the fact that TS are selling books about him?
  > 
  > 5. Can TS leaders today imagine persons who have been victims of child abuse to feel themselves to be WELL-comed and happy members of the TS? And if yes, how is that to come about, when everyone talks negatively about C. W. Leabeaters past supposed sexually related "deeds" or activities? And if so, how can that be reconciled with the fact that TS today are selling books written by C. W. Leadbeater?
  > 
  > 6. How are TS today relating to issues like UFOs, Cropcirlcles ("present day Mahatma Letters"?), and the so-called "Disclosure Project", while not being involved with Political activity?
  > 
  > 7. Are any TS leaders today claiming to be in contact with the Masters like in the old days of TS?
  > 
  > 8. Are the TS today succeding in the aim given by HPB to end the strife among various religions? (See The Key to Theosophy, p. 2-3.) If not why not, do you think?
  > 
  > 
  > Some of these question have maybe been answered somewhere before.
  > But I find them to be forwarded in various ways almost similar or relating very much to the above written by me, by a lot of persons on the Internet.
  > 
  > I will leave it up to you if you want to answer any of these questions.
  > Silence is of course also an answer.
  > - - -
  > 
  > H. P. Blavatsky wrote the article: "IS DENUNCIATION A DUTY?" 
  > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v10/y1888_091.htm
  > 
  > 
  > It was said: There is no religion higher than Truth.
  > 
  > - - -
  > About me: 
  > I have since childhood been a student of the theosophical teachings. 
  > In my view: Atma=Brahman.
  > 
  > 
  > M. Sufilight
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: keith_fisher@... 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:11 PM
  > Subject: Theos-World TS Adyar - The Truth Unveiled
  > 
  > 
  > Dear Friends
  > 
  > I returned from the Theosophical Society in Adyar on 
  > 1 March 2009 after serving a six months term as the 
  > International Secretary. A critical situation arose in 
  > August last year on the surprise resignation of the 
  > Secretary, and I was asked to drop my life to take up the 
  > position for a short length of time. I agreed to do a six
  > month term and was appointed on 1 September 2008.
  > 
  > Since returning home I have had time to read the untruthful,
  > inaccurate statements posted on the TS American website,
  > regarding Adyar and the General Council Meeting in December,
  > including the venomous, destructive statements emanating
  > from New Zealand. 
  > 
  > This disgraceful situation needs addressing, as many TS members
  > naturally place trust in their elected section leaders. 
  > 
  > I now find myself in the unique position of knowing the truth
  > of these matters while holding no official position in the 
  > Theosophical Society, except that I am an Australian member.
  > 
  > I would therefore, like to offer my services to members of the
  > group who would like to know the truth. I do not wish to enter
  > into lengthy dialogue, but I am willing to answer any sensible
  > questions, truthfully, and to the best of my ability.
  > 
  > Best wishes
  > Keith Fisher
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >


  

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