Theos-Talk Archives (March 2009 Message tt00441)

Daniel, 
Thanks for your stimulating posts as always, they are pointed and iadditive to your huge database of your websites. 
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the Nestorians and the old Church of Thomas the Apostle in india? Recently they published "The Gospel of Jude" and there are different opinions as to whether Jude actually killed himself. It is an interesting ongoing evolution in regards to Jude, maybe Jude is not Judas? I don't easily come into agreement that the entire New testament is fictional, although I know there are many discrepancies which you and many others have cited. For instance, way back in the 1970 I read a very controversial Book "The Two Babylons or The Papal Worship" by Rev. Alexander Hislop, 1916--it proports to prove that the Papal Worship is actually the worship of Nimrod and his Wife. It was first published as phamplet in 1853. And also the works of Rev. Kersey Graves were controversial to the point that he was imprisoned in Oakham Gaol for publishing "The Worlds Sixteen Crucified Saviors or Christianity Before Christ", 384 pages in 1879. Marcion of Sinope (Codex Apocryphus of Thilo) is he claims the original Gospel which Paul used and which he communicated to the churches he founded. Marcion arrived in Rome about 140 A.D. and died about 170 A.D. Marcion (Marcion's father was a Bishop of the early church ) published ten of the epistles of Paul and called them the "Apostolicon". The Marcionite churches were found from Italy to Persia and lasted until the 7th century.His gospel and apostolicon form the first canon of the new testament on record. So Marcion's Gospel dates from 140 A.D. and is prior to the four canonical Gospels. 
Also the ante-nicene library of the early church fathers is a huge compilation of the statements of them all. Were they all inventing everything they spoke of ? Their lectures and edictions were published and circulated widely to inform the church flock to real living people, many of which were well educated in their day and knowledgable of what was occurring, and who was a real existing person that the fathers talked about. How is it that they didn't repudiate widely the so-called mass fabrications of Tertullian and others? Did they invent all the Gnostic Sects that they ridiculed into dust? Did G R S Mead's books consist of imaginations? What about Valentinus, a gnostic Bishop of the early church who was anathematized and declared heritic and founded his own church, which by the 7th century was as large as the Roman church and threatened to overcome it in popularity. So the Roman church retracted the heresy edict and negociated a "merger" incorporating many of the Valentinian ideas. If Simom Magus and Apollonius and all the others existed how come all the Apostles didn't? Lol! 
I do agree that there is a virtual plethora of errors, mistakes, wrong content, non-corellativeness, direct lies, impostures,imaginations, fancies, illusions, inventions,and so forth but there had to be some one real in history! How did they feed the lions in the Colessium of Rome cotton candy Martyrs? Mmmm, yummy I love cotton candy! In mead's books on the Gnostic they make Jesus to have three other "Brothers" by Mary all three were Apostles. (John, James and anotherI don't recall at the moment)This is an allegation that fascinated me quite a bit years ago. 

Well, regards Daneil, 
John 








----- Original Message ----- 
From: "danielhcaldwell" <danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 8:47:16 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Theos-World With no 12 Apostles --- What Remains of the Gospels? 






If the 12 Apostles didn't exist as Mr. Leadbeater claims, how much of 
the rest of the Gospels and story of the early Christian church 
REMAINS as ACTUAL history? 

Wikipedia writes as follows on the 12 Apostles: 

------------------------------------------------------- 
They were, according to the Acts of the Apostles and Christian 
tradition, disciples whom Jesus of Nazareth HAD CHOSEN, NAMED, and 
TRAINED in order to send them on a specific mission: the 
establishment of the Christian Church by evangelism and the spreading 
of the "good news", after being sent the Holy Spirit as "helper" 
(paraclete) in this task at Pentecost.... Traditionally, the Twelve 
include Peter, Prince of the Apostles;... Andrew, James the Greater, 
James the Lesser, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, 
Thaddeus, Simon, and Judas Iscariot. Judas had been one of the 
Twelve, but he betrayed Jesus and killed himself....With Judas gone, 
Matthias became one of the Twelve.... In the Synoptics, Mark names 
the Twelve, Matthew follows Mark, and Luke substitutes Jude for 
Mark's Thaddeus. John refers to the Twelve without naming them all, 
adds the name Nathanael, and uses the term "beloved disciple" 
(presumably for John). ... In the Synoptics, Jesus selects Peter, 
James, and John to witness his divine Transfiguration and to be with 
him when he prays at Gethsemane. In Mark, the Twelve are obtuse, 
failing to understand the importance of Jesus' miracles and 
parables.... The book of Acts recounts the deeds of the apostles in 
the years after Jesus' crucifixion. 
---------------------------------------------------------- 

ALSO NOTE THAT the apostles were some of the PRIMARY witnesses of 
Jesus's resurrection and ascension. See the list of the resurrection 
appearances at: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_appearances_of_Jesus#Appearances_repor\ 
ted_in_the_New_Testament 

So if the 12 apostles were fictional and did not exist as C.W. 
Leadbeater asserted, then how much of the rest of the Gospels are 
real, actual history. 

Try rewriting the story of Jesus' life without the apostles. 

And if the apostles didn't really exist, who carried on the Christian 
work after Jesus supposedly died, resurrected and ascended? 

And if much of the Gospels as given are not history and are nothing 
but fiction, the existence of Jesus as a real person becomes even 
more questionable. 

Food for thought. 

Daniel 




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